Aspire with Mellody Hobson: What I Learned From My Business Hero

Emma sits down with the number one person she looks up to in business: to Mellody Hobson. As Co-CEO of Ariel Investments—a firm managing over $14 billion in assets—Mellody is a powerhouse whose influence stretches far beyond Wall Street. She opens up about her early life growing up on the South Side of Chicago, the youngest of six kids raised by a single mother, and how those beginnings shaped her views on money, ambition, and success. Mellody shares her rare career journey—starting as an intern and rising to president in under ten years, all while staying at the same company for over three decades. Emma and Mellody go deep on what it takes to thrive in male-dominated spaces, why subject matter expertise is the foundation of real leadership, and how negotiating for yourself is non-negotiable. They also talk openly about money trauma, self-worth, and rewriting the financial narratives many of us carry. Mellody’s story proves you can build a legendary career without chasing every trend—by staying focused, staying prepared, and staying true to yourself. This conversation is full of hard-won wisdom on how to stand out, stay sharp, and lead with purpose.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Emma Grede?

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• 0:45Emma Grede?

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• 1:03Speaker 01

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• 1:11Speaker 02

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• 1:12Speaker 03

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• 1:34Speaker 04

  You must, and I mean this with serious intensity, you have to have a sense of urgency, you have to want to be great.

• 1:41Emma Grede?

  How do you know that you're like, "I'm gonna stay in Ariel and this is gonna be my career"? Like, if I'd have asked you, I don't know, 30 years ago, would you stay in this one place?

• 1:50Speaker 04

  I know I would.

• 1:52Emma Grede?

  Would you have had that answer?

• 1:53Speaker 04

  I know I would. Vision means conquering fear. Because once you decide to go out on that limb and dangle, there's like nothing to help you. You're like gripping by your hands, by your fingernails.

• 2:10Emma Grede?

  I'm so excited about today's episode of the Aspire Podcast because today I'm talking to my ultimate aspiration. Whenever I'm asked who I look up to in business, I only have one answer, and it's Mellody Hobson. Melody is the co-CEO of Aerial Investments, a firm which manages over $14 billion in assets. She was chairwoman at Starbucks and has held board seats at JP Morgan, Estee Lauder, and even negotiated the acquisition of Dreamworks Animation. She is someone whose journey is marked by incredible success, but she's also navigated her path with grace and courage and just an unshakable sense of purpose. If you ever wondered what it takes to rise through the ranks, not just to the top, but

• 2:53Emma Grede?

  to redefine what the top can be, then Melody is that blueprint. We'll get into her thoughts on how to get promoted, finding the power in negotiation, and how sometimes being underestimated can be your superpower. We'll talk about money and how she's using her voice and influence to build real ownership, especially for women and people of colour. Melody is a true one of one, and I am so excited to share this episode. Welcome to the show, Mellody Hobson. Melody, thank you so much for being here today. When I think about someone in business who I aspire to, you are number one, number one, number one again. No, not come on.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  Seriously?

• 3:32Emma Grede?

  Yes, seriously. You know this.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  You say that to everyone.

• 3:36Emma Grede?

  Every time I start, that's my intro. No, I have to tell you, when I decided to do this show, which ultimately the idea is that I get to share the people that I aspire to the most, it was number one you. And I'm so happy that you're here. And we've got a lot of stuff that we're going to talk about today. But before we start, I really want to understand a little bit more about your childhood and where you come from. And I know you grew up on the South Side of Chicago. I know that you're one of six and you were raised by a single mother. But I'd really like to understand a little bit more about how you were raised and where you came from. Really, you know, what does that mean in terms of who you are today and how you kind of move through the world?

• 4:16Speaker 04

  Me knowing your story, I think you'll understand very well. I grew up in Chicago, youngest of six. My siblings are much older than me, so a couple of decades.

• 4:25Emma Grede?

  Oh, wow.

• 4:26Speaker 04

  So interestingly, I am technically an only child, because they say if you have more than five years between yourself and your next sibling, and my next sibling is nine years older than me. My mom was a single mom. She worked extremely hard.

• 4:39Emma Grede?

  I bet.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  But we had a hard existence and not harder than anyone else's, but our own form of challenges where despite the effort, we would get evicted, our phone would get disconnected, our lights would be turned off. My mom used to borrow gas from the gas station to get me to school. And all of those things created trauma. I, you know, I feel like my purpose came from that trauma. And I think my fire, and I said this recently in an interview, was lit by scarcity. There was scarcity and it made me very, very, very focused and very driven. I mean, very, I could sit for hours and work without even looking up.

• 5:20Emma Grede?

  That's right.

• 5:21Speaker 04

  The focus that I have is, is extreme.

• 5:24Emma Grede?

  Well, I know that about you. And I think that for so many people, when you come from a place where scarcity is like, it's there, it never leaves. Like it's always around the corner. Do you feel like that now?

• 5:34Speaker 04

  Absolutely. No, I used to have those recurring nightmare dreams. You know, people talk about their dream was they didn't graduate from college or something like that. I still, to this day, I wake up in the morning and I look up and I speak words of gratitude or say words of gratitude about my, to myself, about the fact that I have a house or an apartment or wherever I am.

• 5:53Emma Grede?

  I cannot tell you how much that resonated with me. I mean, I've told you this before. I love that story of Chris Rock who talks about keeping a bag packed in his own house and I feel a little bit like that. I'm ready for the day someone's like, this is not your life, girl. You're like, you know, I'm gonna march you out. And so I kind of feel like in my head, I've kind of, I will keep a bag packed for the rest of my life.

• 6:11Speaker 04

  And it's interesting, mine is not the bag packed. Mine is like the account to make sure like you have, you have some, some back, you know, some backup money in case anything goes wrong.

• 6:23Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. So it's not a bag for me, but it's the same concept.

• 6:26Emma Grede?

  It's the same concept.

• 6:27Speaker 04

  Being prepared and, you know, having that, not even just emergency mentality, but that mentality that anything can happen, which has proven to be true over and over again in life.

• 6:37Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And so many, in so many great ways. But did you always know that you wanted a career in business? I understand that you were watching your siblings. But who was around you and who gave you this idea that you could have this type of career that you're having?

• 6:51Speaker 04

  No one.

• 6:51Emma Grede?

  No one.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  In my immediate family, I'm the only one who graduated from college. So they aren't like me. We're very, very different. But as I said, I have nothing but respect and admiration and love for. The lens through which they allowed me to form a life for myself or an idea of a life for myself. In terms of what I was looking at, nothing in person, but I was reading. And so I always tell people, I was mentored by people I never met because I was reading about them. And so the reading is what brought me to have the ideas that I have because I didn't have that real life experience. I didn't grow up with any relationships. I didn't grow up with any entrees. I found all those things myself. And then I was a really good student.

• 7:35Speaker 04

  And what I mean by that is technically a good student at school, but I was a good study. So if I had the opportunity to observe something, I would study it really fast. So I would come here, furniture, how you looked, all sorts of things, and then take pieces of it and say, oh, that makes sense, or I want to do that, or look at how this was put together. And so that created an opportunity for me. But I really spent a lot of my childhood in the library. I used to go to the library on Saturdays.

• 8:03Emma Grede?

  And you were just-

• 8:04Speaker 04

  And hang out at the library.

• 8:05Emma Grede?

  And reading what? Like, what were you to- where- what information were you first involved?

• 8:09Speaker 04

  Really young, I used to read these bagographies. There were these little red books and they were in my school library at my public school, which is called the Ogden School. And they had a book on every person you could possibly imagine, and my goal was to read all of them. And so I read books on like the most-

• 8:25Emma Grede?

  How old are you at this point?

• 8:26Speaker 04

  I mean, I'm like nine, 10, 11, 12.

• 8:30Emma Grede?

  And at nine, you have a goal. So at nine, you're like, I'm gonna read every one of these books.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  Well, this was a big deal because I tell people this and, you know, sometimes they're a little surprised. I couldn't read until I was in second grade. I really struggled reading, which I can't explain it. No, and I have no issues. I mean, once it clicked, I had a math teacher in high school, he called me the second day girl. He was like, you get everything on the second day. And then once you have it, it's solid. He used to call me, literally in class, he's like, the second day girl. He's like, the second day. I don't know that that's still true, but there were some years where I was a second day girl.

• 9:05Emma Grede?

  I can almost certainly say you've shed the second day girl thing. So you then, first in the family to graduate from college, you graduate from Princeton.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 9:12Emma Grede?

  And you then go straight to Ariel Investments.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 9:17Emma Grede?

  Which is where you are now. You were an intern and that is where you've spent your entire career.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  I have had one job since I graduated from college in 1991.

• 9:28Speaker 04

  And supposedly, in my graduating class of eleven hundred people, I'm the only person who has had the same phone number at work the entire time. Literally.

• 9:38Emma Grede?

  Well, because nobody does that these days. I feel like we're almost trained in so much of a way. And I honestly think this about my own stuff because people come and they come for two to three years. It's so unusual that anyone stays even for five or six. So I can imagine for you that even during that tenure, you've done a lot of different things. You don't start as the intern and end up where you are.

• 10:02Speaker 04

  Now, remember, I'm rooted in a sense of a lack of security.

• 10:12Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 10:13Speaker 04

  And moving constantly as a child. So what do you, when you move a lot as a child, what don't you do as an adult?

• 10:19Emma Grede?

  You don't want to move. You want stability.

• 10:21Speaker 04

  So I never wanted to move. And so I didn't want to move at home and I didn't want to move. I lived in my first apartment that was eight hundred and fifty square feet for fourteen years.

• 10:31Emma Grede?

  You didn't.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  I was president of Ariel. I had enough money to buy a really, really nice apartment.

• 10:36Emma Grede?

  What is happening?

• 10:37Speaker 04

  And I lived in this eight hundred and fifty square foot apartment. It had one bathroom. I had my apartment remodeled. I had to move to the peninsula to get my apartment remodeled.

• 10:47Emma Grede?

  And you moved back to the eight hundred and fifty square feet apartment?

• 10:50Speaker 04

  Yes, and they said my bathroom was so small that only one construction worker could work it in it at one at a time.

• 10:55Emma Grede?

  Where does that come from? Because I was like, you wanted to stay where you were at.

• 10:59Speaker 04

  And I was also like, it's paid for. I'm not living above my means. It's perfectly fine. It was pretty. It was tiny. It had eleven, fourteen foot ceilings, but tiny. It was the tiniest little apartment.

• 11:12Emma Grede?

  And you owned it.

• 11:12Speaker 04

  I had shoes in the kitchen.

• 11:14Emma Grede?

  When did you buy that apartment?

• 11:15Speaker 04

  When I was in nineteen ninety-four. And, and so I lived there for this long period of time because I really liked this idea of just being very, very, very stable. So the same was true at Ariel. It was very, very stable, but. I was constantly challenged with new things. And they always got harder to this day.

• 11:38Emma Grede?

  And I do think there's so much to be said for someone like you. You've done so many things in your career. But how have you been able to architect that career over the last 30 years? What did that look like for you?

• 11:48Speaker 04

  So one thing that I felt very strongly about, and I told this to a lot of young people. First of all, and it's very important. My career is anchored in an expertise. I am anchored in finance. And that is very, very important. When I looked at the greats, no matter who they were, from Warren Buffett to Steve Jobs to, you name the person, Jamie Dimon. You could look at Walt Disney. You could look at, you know, just so many greats. They did one thing extremely well and they went deep. And I tell people, an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less. So that's not my quote. It's a quote that I read.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  So you know more and more about less and less. And so think about it. I said, there's a difference between a general practitioner, where you just go to the doctor and they're checking you out, and brain surgery. So I wanted to be the brain surgeon of my field.

• 12:45Emma Grede?

  How did you choose finance?

• 12:48Speaker 04

  Because money, I was desperate to understand money as a child. So that's what I mean by my trauma became my purpose. I really wanted to, I wanted to understand very early on how money worked. So that I would not repeat the cycles that I was in. And so really, it all made a lot of sense to me. Once I got there, and this is really important, I said, I want to be known for, for something that I do so well, that it distinguishes me. So in finance, one of the things that I do really, really well, is I have a great ability to communicate ideas. And I would read the people who could do it very well. And there was a guy who wrote for Barron's magazine, which is a weekly financial magazine, named Floyd Norris.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  He wrote the beginning article every week. He was genius, genius writer. And then I would read Warren Buffett's annual letters, genius, genius, genius, where they would simplify such hard concepts. Warren Buffett would talk about, everyone thinks he's looking for a needle in a haystack. He's like, I own Coca-Cola. I just look for haystacks. So that, just that idea of like, look for a haystack, not a needle. And so I would read what they would write and I'd say, well, one, I want to be able to write extremely well about money and I want to be able to communicate this concept to anyone who could be a bus driver, a CFO, a school teacher, and to do that actually is harder than, you know, if you are a scientist and you're only speaking to PhDs, you have

• 14:18Speaker 04

  a common language, you have a lot of jargon. If you're trying to break down that science to everyday people, you have to figure out how to put it in terms that they can understand. And I wanted to be able to do it all. And it's not even a question of high-low, it's a question of being clear, concise, and simple about things that can be very hard to explain.

• 14:39Emma Grede?

  And how have you gotten so good at that? Like, because it's such a difficult thing and I do, you know, I almost hate what I'm about to say, but I feel like finance is still one of those things. And it doesn't matter if you meet a female founder, female CEO, she will somehow extrapolate herself very, very often, and more often than not, from the finance piece. And I find myself, and have done earlier in my career, saying, you know, the first person I get around me is like the CFO, because that's where I'm weak. And I think the moment I stopped saying that and I took responsibility for my own learning, for my own understanding, for my dyslexia and not allowing that to be an excuse,

• 15:19Emma Grede?

  I became infinitely more powerful in my own businesses, but also in my own life. So, like, I just need to understand, like, that is so, it's such an incredible thing for me that you are so powerful in finance.

• 15:32Speaker 04

  So one of the things that I love so much that I will tell you, for years and years, I started off working on television. I worked on Good Morning America for a decade and then I worked on CBS.

• 15:42Emma Grede?

  As an expert, right? So you always had your job aerial and then you would be...

• 15:47Speaker 04

  I have seventeen jobs.

• 15:48Emma Grede?

  Right, yes. But you'll be in the entertainment sphere as Mellody Hobson, the expert.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  And talking about what happened in the world of money. And the great thing about that is you get so few minutes and you must simplify.

• 16:01Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 16:01Speaker 04

  And so what I would do on my way to the studio, when it would be, you know, four in the morning, five in the morning, I'd sit in the front seat of the black town car and speak to the driver. And I would run my script by the driver and I would say to him or her, every single time I say something you don't understand, stop me.

• 16:21Speaker 04

  And so I would use them as my focus group.

• 16:23Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 04

  Just the car ride. And I would go over and over and over again. And so that was one way that I that I would hear. And Diane Sawyer, in the beginning, she would call me in the middle of the night. She's like, I've read your script. I don't understand this. It would be like two in the morning. And she was like, Melody, you have to explain it. I don't understand. And she was the one who always kept pushing me to simplify and explain things in a better way. And then I started to realize the power of that. Because once you could break it down, even that, you know, it's it's. I think people think someone with jargon is smarter, and I actually feel the opposite. Most of the time when people give me acronyms, I say, what does that stand for?

• 17:02Emma Grede?

  All the time.

• 17:03Speaker 04

  Do you know how many people can't tell you what the acronym means?

• 17:05Emma Grede?

  All the time. Yes.

• 17:06Speaker 04

  Which I think is hilarious. So it says a lot. It's one of the reasons I don't like acronyms at all.

• 17:12Emma Grede?

  I actually think it's a great lesson because sometimes the fear, I remember when I started in the apparel business, it's all acronyms. And I would stop people constantly and say, what is the AOV? What is the UPT? What is the LTV? And and everyone would be like, aren't you embarrassed? You're supposed to be the CEO. And I was like, no, I don't know what I don't know. And again, it become it can become so like fearful for people just to ask the question.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  It's so interesting because I call it confident humility.

• 17:40Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 17:40Speaker 04

  I can be confident and have a lot of humility. And I tell people all the time, if I don't know what you are talking about.

• 17:45Emma Grede?

  I'm gonna ask.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 17:47Emma Grede?

  And it's a superpower to simplify. And for you to be able to distill complex ideas into really, really simple, like, you know, simple things that anyone can understand is a superpower.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  This is my example that I give to people. You have a small child. My daughter's 11. I know you have several children around her same age. Something's wrong with your your child. You are with a doctor. A doctor speaks to you only in doctor speak. If it were your child, you'd say, break that down and explain it to me in a way that I can understand because you are not walking out of that office with something wrong with your child without understanding. I said, why do we allow people to do that with us with money? It's significant what you need to know. It could not only affect your life, but the life of your heirs. So you need to ask that follow up question. I don't know what you're talking about. Just as if someone said, you know, your daughter broke her femur in three places.

• 18:42Speaker 04

  If you didn't know what femur was, you'd say, what is that? And they'd say, broken leg, right? So it's the same sort of thing. But I think the simplification of the concepts is the power of it. And that's what I started to see. I was like, wait a minute. If I can simplify this, I actually have more people who are leaning in. Because sometimes they actually want to borrow the ideas.

• 19:04Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 04

  And use these ideas in their own way. And then also what it allowed me to do, it forced me to break these things down for myself. I was always kind of say like, how could I think about this differently? What does this mean? How do I understand it? And if I'm in a boardroom, if I'm in anywhere, I'm just not, I always, people know that about me. I will ask if I don't know. I think questions are the most powerful things you can do.

• 19:30Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 04

  In life.

• 19:31Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  I prefer questions to statements.

• 19:35Emma Grede?

  Every single time. And I think that all the time, because in any situation that you're in, being able to find the unlock to something is like, how many great questions can you ask? It's not about what you already know, because I want to figure out what I don't know in any given situation. And so asking the right questions is what allows you to do that.

• 19:52Speaker 04

  And what amazes me, Emma, smart people who are not curious.

• 19:57Emma Grede?

  Oh, it's the worst. It's a terrible trait, just like not being curious on its own.

• 20:02Speaker 04

  How about the fact you sit down with someone and by the end of dinner, they haven't asked you one thing?

• 20:06Emma Grede?

  It's unforgivable.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  I literally, I am like, well, they're, you know, they may be successful for now.

• 20:14Emma Grede?

  Yeah, but how long does it last?

• 20:15Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 20:15Emma Grede?

  No, curiosity. And honestly, when I think about this type of show and the reason that I wanted to do this, it's because my life has been so enhanced by being able to sit with people that I find really interesting and really inspiring. And information, you know, Warren Buffett has this quote that I love, which is, the more you learn, the more you earn.

• 20:38Speaker 05

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• 21:09Speaker 06

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• 21:11Speaker 07

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• 21:12Speaker 06

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• 22:33Emma Grede?

  It feels to me that you are always in learning mode. You can't have a career like the one that you've had without consistently learning. And so when you learn that you are this super communicator and you have a way of distilling and simplifying these very complex ideas, how do you know that like you're like, I'm going to stay in Ariel and this is going to be my career? Like if I'd have asked you, I don't know, 30 years ago, would you stay in this one place?

• 22:59Speaker 04

  I know I would.

• 23:00Emma Grede?

  Which you would have had the answer?

• 23:00Speaker 04

  I know I would. I remember being very young. I remember walking into our office one day and I remember looking at the door and I said, how many times am I going to walk through this door in my life? I knew, I knew. Part of what I knew was that I was working with great people. Someone gave me advice once, they said, you know, people make really important business decisions for the wrong reasons. And they encouraged me never to make important business decisions based upon money.

• 23:26Emma Grede?

  Never. And I think so many people do that.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  And I have seen it, that you know, the person who leaves the job for the extra 10 grand and you're like, but this is the better opportunity. This is the better person to mentor you. This is the way that you're going to actually be exposed to things that you won't see in this other place. But it's the trade offs that are made that where they ultimately nickel and dime themselves. I remember being at Ariel, I remember someone saying to me, they tried to recruit me to another job. I never talked to headhunters or anything like that. This person asked me to come over and they're like, but it's so much bigger than Ariel. And I said, that's what you value. And I said, I'm valuing the experience and this experience is giving me a lot of opportunity to grow and learn in ways big and small that are important to me.

• 24:11Emma Grede?

  And did you ever worry, you know, because again, having so many people that like work around me in these companies, did you ever feel overwhelmed or like there were things that you didn't want to take on? Or for you, was it always like, I'm taking that, I'm taking that?

• 24:26Speaker 04

  Okay, so first of all, we all feel overwhelmed sometimes and it's, you know, a question of how do you re-anchor yourself to get through it? And I somehow, I can push through and will myself to do. Unbelievable things. I cannot describe it to you. I can work, outwork any person.

• 24:43Emma Grede?

  Give me an example, like when you say that you can push yourself to do unbelievable things, what does that look like? Because I feel like sometimes you could, you could look at somebody like you and think, you know, well, of course, she's like super smart, but it's not just about what you learned and what you've taught yourself. There is something to just sheer work ethic that counts for something.

• 25:04Speaker 04

  First of all, it's waking up super early, not making any excuses about all the things I have to get done. It's a lot of travel, the lot of like landing in the middle of the night, waking up super early in the morning.

• 25:19Emma Grede?

  I love to hear that because I think that at the point you are in your career, you still have to push through things.

• 25:25Speaker 04

  Oh, I pull all nighters.

• 25:26Emma Grede?

  Yeah, you still do that.

• 25:27Speaker 04

  We had that level of work. We had a big thing a couple of weeks ago where I had to get something out very last minute. We started off in Florida.

• 25:35Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:36Speaker 04

  We flew to Texas and then we were flying to San Francisco. This issue came up. We started on Friday at three thirty in the afternoon. We needed what we needed to get done, which was really hard by Monday morning.

• 25:50Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  I told my chief of staff Serena and I, I was like, we are going to be sitting at the kitchen table for the next two days. So we went all, the entire flight from Texas to San Francisco. We worked late into night in San Francisco. We woke up, woke up early, very early. I still went to the gym somehow. And then we, but not always. I mean, some, this was a bad run.

• 26:13Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  So then we got up, we worked the entire day into the night, sitting in the same seat, the entire Saturday, the entire Sunday. We had to fly to Chicago. We worked in the entire time flying to Chicago. We finished when we landed, when we hit the ground in Chicago and turned it over to the next person. It was incredibly hard. But I said, we have no choice. And everyone who was behind me waiting for the work, I said, when I hand this off to you, you're going to go into this non-sleep mode that I was just in.

• 26:46Emma Grede?

  And you have to deliver on it too.

• 26:47Speaker 04

  But you've got hours.

• 26:49Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 26:50Speaker 04

  You know, you've got to turn this around and we have no choice.

• 26:52Emma Grede?

  So talking of hard things, because I think there will be so many people that are sitting there in a corporate career. And I, I do think to some degree, there is. A blueprint for getting promoted, for moving through a job in the way you, you know, in the way that you have. So what do you tell people? I mean, because you're on an 11. Do you need everybody else around you to be on an 11? And what is it that people need to do in order to be successful and to be promoted?

• 27:21Speaker 04

  Okay, this is going to sound strange, and I'm going to make it hopefully not sound not great, but it's how I think about it. My mom had six kids. She mothered us all differently. That's just a fact.

• 27:38Emma Grede?

  That's what they say. No siblings have the same parents. That is a fact.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  No. So it's a fact. In my group of people who work directly with me, I understand what they can do and how they can do it. John Rogers always used to tell me that the world championship Chicago Bulls that won seven championships, he said, Dennis Rodman rebounds, Steve Kerr shoots threes, Michael is the greatest player of all time. You know, he would go through each player and he said, but each one is really important. Michael can't play without them. They can't win. So Dennis may be out at night, but everyone makes sure Dennis is on the court so that he can rebound for them. And he's like, so he doesn't have the same rules as everyone else. And so Melody, you figure it out that

• 28:24Speaker 04

  you get the best out of each person, but everyone is not going to run the place.

• 28:28Emma Grede?

  But what happens if your aspiration is to operate at the highest level? Like, what are the non-negotiables, do you think, for people that want that type of career? What do they need to do?

• 28:39Speaker 04

  You must, and I mean this with serious intensity, I think you have to care a lot and have a sense of urgency. You have to have a sense of urgency. You have to want to be great. You know, I love that book by Jim Collins, Good to Great, and the first line of the book, good is the enemy of great. Good is the enemy of great. Plenty of people are happy with good. They say the worst student is the B plus student. Because the B plus student is like, it's fine. They were like, the C student aspires for something better. And the A student is just the A student, but the B plus student is, they live in that, that no man's land of it's fine.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  And so it's almost like the worst situation that you can be in. So if good is the enemy of great, I want the person who wants to be great. But understanding that differential between good and great is really hard.

• 29:34Emma Grede?

  Do you think you can train people into that? Or do you think it has to come from somewhere within themselves?

• 29:39Speaker 04

  It has to be there. Yeah, some people just, you know, they come out of the womb with it. Some people don't, but that doesn't make them, um, they can still be very valuable. They're just going to be a certain kind of player. And that's what John said. He's like, there are going to be other people, they're just not going to run the place.

• 29:54Emma Grede?

  So you think people have to just work really hard, want to be great, and they need to have a sense of urgency?

• 29:59Speaker 04

  I think they have to want to be great. Let's start with that. And, you know, some people have to work harder than others. So I remember going to school with geniuses at Princeton. They didn't have to work as hard as I did. They, you know, sort of like skimmed the page and got it. And I'm like writing notes and checking, you know, flashcards and doing the whole thing. But, you know, they, it came easier to them. Some things come easier to me. So I think it's just a function of, of, um, you understanding yourself.

• 30:26Emma Grede?

  And, and what's so interesting to me, you obviously work in this extremely male dominated space, right? And I always think.

• 30:33Speaker 04

  Opposite of you.

• 30:34Emma Grede?

  The total opposite of me.

• 30:35Speaker 04

  You have women.

• 30:36Emma Grede?

  Thank goodness for me. Um, but I always think about this idea of, you know, like, you can't be what you don't see. And did you have women that were around you or mentors in your career? It's just so interesting. You did?

• 30:50Speaker 04

  Yes, a lot. I mean, I talked about Diane Sawyer.

• 30:52Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 30:53Speaker 04

  Diane Sawyer was so great to me. She saw me on the cover of Working Woman Magazine in an article called 30 Under 30. I got the cover with another woman. And I will remember it like it was yesterday because I remember how much I didn't like the suit they made me wear, which was just so bad. But anyway, I love the cover.

• 31:12Emma Grede?

  It wasn't Prada on Prada on Miu Miu on Gucci on Prada. Because we know you in your fashion, which is another thing that I love that you bring to this world because I'm like, well, she ain't sacrificing the outfits, that's for sure.

• 31:23Speaker 04

  No, it was like casual corner.

• 31:24Emma Grede?

  Oh, no. Good lord, clutching your purse.

• 31:28Speaker 04

  Oh, for sure. So anyway, she saw me in the cover. She had her sister call me. I remember I was going to an event in Chicago. My cell phone rings and this woman says, my name is Linda Frankel and I'm Diane Sawyer's sister. And she saw you in this magazine and she wants to meet with you. And I'm like, who is this really? That's what I was saying because I didn't believe it. And ultimately, she's like, no, my name is Linda Frankel and I'm Diane Sawyer's sister. Do you think you can go meet with her in New York? So I go to meet with Diane in New York and she says, you know, I thought this story was pretty amazing and I've never seen anyone like you on television talk about money. And I think you could be great. And so she asked me, she says, you know, I think you should be on television talking about money. I said, well, I have a job in Chicago. And she's like, if I make it work on my end, will you make it work on your end?

• 32:13Speaker 04

  And I said, you mean do both? She said, do both. We do this one show. We had these young people come in, and I was young myself, but they were young. They were pitching business plans or something like that. And I remember there was a woman and she wasn't that buttoned up. And I gave her sort of like very direct feedback on the air. And Diane pulled me aside and she said, and this was so powerful. She said, Melody, she said, you know, when you watch Oprah Winfrey? Now Oprah is like, you know, ahh. Right. So I said, yeah. And she's like, you know what happens when she comes out on her show? And she's in the middle of the aisle? Everyone wants to hug her. Everyone. She said, they want to hug her.

• 32:57Speaker 04

  And she said, you want to be someone that someone wants to hug? That's not what I saw.

• 33:02Emma Grede?

  Wow. Feedback. How'd you take that?

• 33:06Speaker 04

  I was like, wow. She's like, you don't have to.

• 33:09Emma Grede?

  Did you recognize what she was saying? Because did it, it felt the truth?

• 33:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. And she's like, that's not what I saw. She's like, you could be honest with someone, but you don't have to hurt their feelings.

• 33:18Emma Grede?

  Oh, that's some good advice right there.

• 33:19Speaker 04

  And I would remember, I never, I mean, I tell you the story like it was yesterday. I never forgot that.

• 33:25Emma Grede?

  It's a great piece of advice.

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• 35:05Emma Grede?

  I wonder how did you get so comfortable being yourself? Because I feel like in your career, you must have been in so many rooms where you were the first. Where does that come from?

• 35:16Speaker 04

  OK, this is funny, and this is true. I started off in the industry. I'm 22 years old. I don't know anything. I haven't grown up in the home where the stock market is discussed. I didn't major in finance. I majored in international relations and public policy, but I took a lot of math. I thought about being a math major for a little while. But that, when you get to theoretical math in college, you're not even dealing with numbers. And so I'm... I'm, I go to work at Ariel, I don't know anything. And one of the first assignments I get is I have to go to this conference in Atlanta by myself.

• 35:51Emma Grede?

  Okay. Not at twenty, not at twenty-two.

• 35:53Speaker 04

  Yes. So I'm at this conference by myself. And this is where you're like, standing by the bar because you don't know any person in the room.

• 36:01Emma Grede?

  Trying to read name badges.

• 36:03Speaker 04

  You don't know anything. And so as this conference was going on, people would come up to me, they're like, oh, you're Melody. So then the next person, you're Melody. And then this another person, you're Melody. And I'm like, what is going on? And then I started to realize I'm the only one.

• 36:21Speaker 04

  I'm the only one. So I was like, wait a minute, what if I use this in my favor? So I was like, I'm gonna be like Cher or Beyonce. I am not gonna even have a last name. I, that Melody with two L's is gonna be like, oh, you're Melody. I said, I'm gonna use this difference to my advantage.

• 36:40Emma Grede?

  It's so interesting that that was your first thought.

• 36:42Speaker 04

  That was my first thought.

• 36:43Emma Grede?

  You, you were not someone who's like, this is like, not for me. You were like, I'm gonna use this.

• 36:48Speaker 04

  No, I was like, wait, if you can stand out, then this is the important thing, not pointing a finger.

• 36:53Emma Grede?

  No, no, go on, I love it. I'm like that.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  If you can stand out, then have something to say.

• 37:01Emma Grede?

  You better have something to say, especially in the first.

• 37:03Speaker 04

  I started to think a lot about, okay, so if you can be a Beyonce or a Cher in terms of one name, individual in an industry.

• 37:09Emma Grede?

  You gotta have the skill to back it up.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  Right. So you have to have something, so no inanities. And so you try to find a way and you don't, you know, this is one of my pet peeves to this day. Someone who comes and talks to you and they, they, they talk to you about something and it's like a headline in the Wall Street Journal. It was like, yeah, I read that too.

• 37:27Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  That is not insightful.

• 37:29Emma Grede?

  That is not insightful. We all read that article. I don't need you to like, email it back to me.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  So, you know, some people looking for something to say, they state the obvious.

• 37:37Emma Grede?

  I always think of it like nightclub chat. Like, I'm like, please don't nightclub chat me in the middle of the day. It's like uninteresting. It's so, but it's interesting how many people do that.

• 37:45Speaker 04

  I don't even know what nightclub chat is.

• 37:50Emma Grede?

  Remember, I'm waking up at four.

• 37:53Speaker 04

  I don't know what night.

• 37:53Emma Grede?

  I spend a lot of time on the other end of four, let me tell you. I'm really good at nightclub chat, I just don't like it.

• 38:02Speaker 04

  You'll have to explain that one to me another time.

• 38:04Emma Grede?

  I will, another time. But that's so interesting to me because I, again, from where you came from, to have the foresight that you can, first of all, use your differences as like this reason to lean in, but that you weren't going to waste it, right? You were going to take that opportunity and make the connection with somebody actually worth it in those moments.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  Yes, and going back to your question, which I did not answer, my mom always told me, make yourself indispensable. She was like, make it so people can't live without you. So I did every job that they asked me to do. I never was unhappy about any job because I always thought to myself, I'm learning something here.

• 38:42Emma Grede?

  Did you ever feel like you needed to conform, like you needed to fit in?

• 38:47Speaker 04

  There's a degree of conformity that exists in my industry that's very important. And I found a way to be original in my conformity.

• 38:56Emma Grede?

  Explain that to me, how do you?

• 38:57Speaker 04

  So, for example, in the financial services industry,

• 39:02Speaker 04

  you wear business attire, but mine is different from everyone else's.

• 39:07Emma Grede?

  But it's still business attire?

• 39:09Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 39:09Emma Grede?

  Because you and I have spoken about this a lot, like the, the way you put yourself together, the way that you come into a room, and I know that you think that that's very important, and so do I, by the way.

• 39:18Speaker 04

  Well, it is because I was walking in as a black woman. So I was already in this sort of no man's land, especially things have changed, but not meaningfully. And so as a result of that, you had to, first of all, that, that lens of what do they see? Because that's going to affect an opinion before you've even spoken. And I was always very realistic about that. You know, I was, you know, I think we'd like the world to be what we want it to be, but it's not.

• 39:44Emma Grede?

  It's not.

• 39:44Speaker 04

  So, you know, we could hold on to that idea, and that's what I mean, I conformed, but in my own way. And so I was always authentically me. I think, you know, authenticity is key to success. I've seen people not be authentic, they try to be someone else. Like John Rogers and I, we are co-CEOs of Ariel, he's very different from me. I didn't try to be him. That would have been a logical thing. People try to fit a mold. I'm very different than him. We therefore become complimentary and become yin and yang.

• 40:18Emma Grede?

  Absolutely.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  But but that probably would have been an instinct of someone to say, well, this is the model that you're dealing with.

• 40:25Emma Grede?

  Let me be more like that. Yeah. No, but it's very interesting because I do think that at the end of the day, people need to look at you and be comfortable to either, you know, let you handle millions and millions and hundreds of millions of dollars or be around like some huge transaction. And there is a reality as to how you're perceived. And, you know, the the relationship between those two things, right? Somebody feeling that they can trust you.

• 40:49Speaker 04

  So first of all, they need to see discipline. Discipline is very, it comes through in lots of ways. I mean, big and small. My assistant, who is a vice president, because she's so amazing, she constantly, or my chief of staff, before I had emails sent, read over my shoulder, are there any typos in this? A typo could kill an opportunity for us. Because they think you're half-assed. And my husband always jokes, he's like, she does not like half-assed. He always says, she likes whole-assed.

• 41:22Emma Grede?

  Of course you do.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  He's like, she does not like.

• 41:25Emma Grede?

  But down to that, like down to that. So where else does that come in your life? Because I imagine that that can't just be relegated to an email.

• 41:32Speaker 04

  It's not about perfection, but it's about process. You want processes that you don't cut corners. That's a, I don't know if you ever knew that from Dave Thomas, who started Wendy's?

• 41:43Emma Grede?

  No.

• 41:44Speaker 04

  The hamburgers are square because his grandmother always told him, don't cut corners. It also is, you waste less meat by being square. But, yeah, that I don't cut corners. So if you have a process, you're sending out an important email every time someone reads it. Not sometimes, every time. Even in my own office, I'll send out something and I'll say, there's, I'm writing alone, no one's here to proof this. So if you see it, I do.

• 42:09Emma Grede?

  No, you don't. Even if you're doing like an internal memo.

• 42:12Speaker 04

  Oh, there is nothing worse than sending an email to like fifty people in the office and having thirty people email back, "We have a typo in it." And I'll say, "I'm riding along. There's no one here to prove this." I'll put it as a PS.

• 42:25Emma Grede?

  That is very interesting.

• 42:25Speaker 04

  Just so they know, like, I can't see the mistake if it's there.

• 42:27Emma Grede?

  But that level of attention to detail, and like you say, it's not about being a perfectionist, it's about process.

• 42:33Speaker 04

  Process.

• 42:33Emma Grede?

  It's about you essentially ensuring that whatever you do, whatever is a reflection of you, is at the highest possible level that it can be.

• 42:43Speaker 04

  Because then they'll think, "Well, they must be good investors." Do you see what I mean?

• 42:48Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  It all comes together. They must be good investors. Oh, they show up, they look a certain way. They present themselves a certain way. I correct people's grammar in our firm. I do, and they're, "Oh, all the time."

• 43:04Emma Grede?

  You do?

• 43:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, all the time. I'm like, "Guys, we can't do this with a client." You know, this grammar is off. And because I'm thinking, I want them to know how disciplined and how much attention we pay to detail, because we are asking them for their money.

• 43:20Emma Grede?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  It could be their pension money, it could be their kid's college education. This really matters to them. And so therefore, they need to know that we are precise. Especially because we invest, we're in a world where there's a lot we can't control. I can't control tariffs, I can't control the stock market, I can't control what might happen tomorrow. So everything I can control.

• 43:43Emma Grede?

  You must.

• 43:44Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 43:45Emma Grede?

  That makes a lot of sense. So talk to me a little bit about women and power. I wonder if you've had any instances in your career, and I love doing it.

• 43:54Speaker 04

  Lipt, getting tense.

• 43:57Emma Grede?

  It's getting tense. Well, because I think it's something that we talk about all the time. Do you feel like there's times in your career where you have been underestimated or overlooked?

• 44:07Speaker 04

  For sure.

• 44:08Emma Grede?

  Even you?

• 44:09Speaker 04

  All the time.

• 44:10Emma Grede?

  All the time.

• 44:10Speaker 04

  Yes, underestimation is actually a very good thing.

• 44:14Emma Grede?

  Because they don't see you coming.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:16Emma Grede?

  You might say that.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:17Emma Grede?

  Give me an example. Do you have an example?

• 44:19Speaker 04

  I worked in a deal once, and I can't get into the specifics of it.

• 44:23Emma Grede?

  That's all right.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  But the person on the other side, they were working late at night, we're on this deal, and they're like, "Wait a minute, who are you?"

• 44:33Speaker 04

  And I was like, Mellody Hobson. A Melody, just Melody. So, we're working on this deal and I could tell I'm being totally underestimated because this person is a giant and I'm like this little pipsqueak and I'm representing someone in this and it got kind of intense. And so, we're working through it, working through it, working through it. At one point, it got very intense, we're on a tight deadline and the whole thing's getting very, very complicated and we're all losing it. And so, I demanded that everyone go to bed for three hours. I said, "Everyone pencils down, we are so tired, where everyone's talking and speaking in tongues, go to bed, we're all going to go to sleep." The principal on the other side calls the next morning, 6 a.m. and he's like, "You know what?

• 45:16Speaker 04

  I said to my wife, 'This woman, she's like fighting so hard for this, she's, but I need a person like this.'" So, I go into my husband and, you know, I was like, "Oh," you know, he's like, "I need a Melody." And he was like, "He's trying to hire you." I was like, "No." He's like, "Yes, he is." And I thought that was so interesting and I was like, I had been underestimated this whole time and then I could see him turn into a- On the other side, yeah. He's like, "She's fighting so hard." He got it. And it was one of those things where I knew at that moment, I was like, "He totally gets it." He totally gets it. Totally, and he was like, "You are formidable." But it didn't start off that way. I think he thought, like, "This is just gonna be a piece of cake." Yeah, I bet he thought it was gonna be a piece of cake. Yeah, a piece of cake. And I remember saying to him, I said, "You know, I won't ever ask you for anything that

• 46:00Speaker 04

  I actually don't need. Could you try to do the same?" Oh, wow, that's a, that's a powerful negotiation tactic. I mean- And I was, I said, "And then if you do that, I will believe you." Yeah. And I will work to do everything- How many times in deals do people just ask for things they don't need? No, I said, "If you really need it-" That's really smart. I, I said, "If we, we don't have any time, so if you call me and say you need it, I believe you." Yeah. "But I need you to believe me too."

• 46:25Emma Grede?

  That's amazing. Talk to me a bit about negotiation because you're clearly like an incredible negotiator and I think it's a place where people have a really hard time advocating for themselves. But you started off as an intern and now you're clearly, you know, you're an owner in the firm. You have skin in the game. How do people advocate for themselves and get what they need?

• 46:47Speaker 04

  Well, I want to make sure you understand, I always had go-tos to give me a lot of great advice. There were forks in the road along the way and I went to really smart people. I am never too proud to ask for help. As I say, just like the song, I'm not too proud to beg. I'm not.

• 47:01Emma Grede?

  You still do that now at this point in your career?

• 47:03Speaker 04

  Oh, constant.

• 47:04Emma Grede?

  Me too.

• 47:05Speaker 04

  I have lifelines everywhere.

• 47:07Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  And there were some forks in the road that were around self-advocacy that were very, very monumental. And one was when I was about forty years old and a friend called me and he said, you know, Melody, you're forty. Are you staying at Ariel or are you going to do something else? I said, well, why are you asking that? And he's like, you can't switch when you're fifty. So he's like, so if you're going to stay there, then this has to really be meaningful. You have to know what this is, what you're going to own, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

• 47:37Emma Grede?

  What a great friend.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  And so he was like, you really should have the talk with John Rogers about that, not in a threatening way, but just sort of say, I need to know. If you're going to stay, get this all sorted out.

• 47:50Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and get what you need out of the situation.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, get it all sorted out.

• 47:52Emma Grede?

  Why do you think that people, because I know like there's such a, we still have such kind of, you know, inequality when it comes to this gender pay gap.

• 48:00Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 48:01Emma Grede?

  And again, you know, women find it very, very difficult to go in and to advocate for themselves. What do you, why do you think that is? And what do you think we can do better to make sure that we do get what we deserve?

• 48:14Speaker 04

  I think most women are real team players. We're loyal and we're team players and we expect good things to happen to us. And we don't necessarily understand. I think I've been naive at times, so I'm not saying this in any condescending way. You just think it's going to work out and sometimes you have to ask and put people on the spot. I think that if I were giving advice about how to advocate, because I have had people come to me and I've had them do it the right way and do it the wrong way. So I can tell you the wrong way is when you really don't know what you're talking about. And you have overstated your significance or your value.

• 48:50Emma Grede?

  That's the biggest thing.

• 48:51Speaker 04

  That is a killer.

• 48:54Speaker 04

  The person never looks at you the same way. Never.

• 48:57Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And you can't walk it back. That's the problem.

• 48:59Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 49:00Emma Grede?

  Because once you've put that out into the universe, it's there. It exists between the two of you and there's no walking back.

• 49:05Speaker 04

  And so then you just think like, well, you just don't know anything.

• 49:07Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 49:08Speaker 04

  And so then you think, well, how valuable could you be? You like go into a whole spin in your head, right? So if you are asking, make sure you have good information.

• 49:16Emma Grede?

  And good information for you is, is what? It's like an understanding of what you bring to that organization?

• 49:22Speaker 04

  Or what the job is worth?

• 49:23Emma Grede?

  Got it.

• 49:24Speaker 04

  What the, you know, because there's nothing worse than the person who's asking for something that like literally doesn't exist.

• 49:28Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 49:29Speaker 04

  I found those people. They're like, you know, I want to be your chief of staff and I want to make $500,000.

• 49:34Emma Grede?

  Not gonna happen.

• 49:36Speaker 04

  Nowhere.

• 49:37Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? So it's like, if you can get that job, go get it.

• 49:42Emma Grede?

  I wish you well.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, it's like that kind of thing. But it is also the thing where you say, um, know what the real value is of the job and then know what you contributed. You know, I've done these things and again, I'm back to questions versus statements. What do you think I could be doing better or more in order to advance myself in the ways that help me achieve my own long-term goals? Then you have to have someone give it back to you of this, that be as concrete as possible so that you know what you're working towards, but then you have to be able to accept the feedback. And this is the part that gets really gnarly because some people, when you give them the feedback and you're like this, this and this, they start arguing with you. It's not the time.

• 50:27Emma Grede?

  It's not the time.

• 50:28Speaker 04

  So at least at the very minimum, you go and let it sort of wash over you.

• 50:33Emma Grede?

  Take the feedback, come back in a couple of months, having digested what you've been told and hopefully, you know, playing out what you've been told.

• 50:41Speaker 04

  You might actually disagree.

• 50:42Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  You might. Or you might learn something in the process, but you don't react in the moment. I think that's when the negotiations break down very fast because you end up sounding very defensive. So if you can dispute the idea, not in a gotcha, because I've had those people, 30 pages back. You're like, if you did your job this well.

• 51:03Emma Grede?

  You'd be getting what you ask for.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  I've never gotten thirty pages on anything else that I've asked you about, but I get thirty pages on your job performance. You know, that is another killer.

• 51:13Emma Grede?

  Yeah, it's another killer. Do you feel like I've heard you talk a little bit about your, you know, your personal history and where you came from and having, you know, trauma that's connected to money. And so, again, like this idea of how you overcome your fear with money. At this point, you know, you've written an incredible children's book that's all about, it's called Priceless Facts About Money, which I love and I bought immediately for my own children. But I'm kind of interested in how you think about your relationship to money now and how, like, how do you speak to the people within your organization about that?

• 51:47Speaker 04

  It's evolved.

• 51:47Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 51:48Speaker 04

  So Warren Buffett says, do the job you would do if you didn't need a job. That's what I do. So I don't work for money. And I don't say that casually or in a dispassionate way. I like doing well. But that's not what drives me today. It drove me very much when I was twenty two. So things can evolve over time. That was the thing that I needed and wanted was financial security. Now that I do believe if financial security has been achieved, I want to make sure Ariel is successful. And so the way I talk to about my team is I always say, I want them to exceed their own expectations. That's my job.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  I want our clients to feel that we've exceeded their expectations. That's my job. So I talk about money through that. I'm good and I want them to feel that same way, the people who work with me.

• 52:44Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:45Speaker 04

  And so I always told them, I work for our clients and I work for each of them. I literally work for them. And I told them, you work for each other and you work for me. And so we have to know that our job affects someone's kid going to college, their mortgage payment, all of those things. I take that very, very, very seriously. Just as I take the fact that we're fiduciaries for our clients' money. And it's that pension fund, as I said, that college education and the like.

• 53:12Emma Grede?

  And I'm such a huge believer in mindset. And yet I'm like completely allergic to toxic positivity. I feel like there's so much of that around. And I wonder what makes you uniquely able to do what you do. Like, what do you think it is inside of you that makes you so successful? And so able to see around the corners and have such clarity around what it is that you're doing?

• 53:36Speaker 04

  So I've always felt that I was on a quest to grow and learn and be better. And every day I'm trying to just eke out a little bit more that will make me better or learn something new. I told this story of when I first started working at Ariel, I was John's sidekick. And I would just follow up on everything he wanted me to do. And I remember having this real moment of just like concern. That I said, what if I'm just a great order taker? I'm really good at executing, but I have no vision.

• 54:09Speaker 04

  How do I get vision? And so I went through all of these exercises, tried to force myself to have vision. I would, it'd take too long to explain it to you.

• 54:17Emma Grede?

  I'm not going to ask you what you did.

• 54:18Speaker 04

  But it was, it was a lot. And I started to say, I want to be able to try to have vision. Then I realized vision means conquering fear.

• 54:28Speaker 04

  Because once you decide to go out on that limb and dangle, there's like nothing to help you. You're like gripping by your hands, by your finger, fingernails. George always says to me, he says, you know, you are a person who, when you are confronted by a brick wall, you look for loose bricks.

• 54:50Speaker 04

  He's like, you start looking, where's the brick loose? He said, so there's something about the fear and the willingness to confront hard that I think has made me uniquely me. But I talk to myself in my head and I get strength from others. I really use other people as. My friends in my head to get me through. Do you think that's one of the keys to your success? Oh, I, they have no idea how close I am to them. Interesting. I said that about the Pope the other day. Did you? The Pope is a friend in my head, he was. And I, I kept thinking, like, in terms of people with global voices, he was one of the few people where a leader who could speak and globally have it break through.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  And it broke through around kindness and goodness. Never sharp, never disparaging. And I had, like, I, that meant something to me. And I was like, wow, he does that in such an amazing way. He never seems petty. Wow, that's amazing. And I literally, in my head, I would read his headlines or read what he said. And I'm like, how do you aspire to that? How can you get a little bit of that? How does he get that kind of agency in the world? And his agency is not because he's Pope, because there are other Popes that weren't as significant. But his comes through a very specific lens of caring about people. And so there are a lot of times where I use a person, again, I don't know. I talk about Lewis Hamilton, who's like my little brother.

• 56:21Speaker 04

  He's a nice man. And I know Lewis never quits. So when I feel I'm on the edge, I want to stop. The pain is there, the tired, all those things. I literally just keep saying to myself, Lewis would not quit. Who else is a person like that for you in your life? Michelle Obama in my head.

• 56:43Speaker 04

  I'm like, she's done hard things. And she is so studied. Someone told me a story about how when she was doing her book tour, every single night, every single night she'd come back to her room and debrief with the entire team about what she could have done better. Every single time. Wow. Every single time. Do you invite that kind of criticism in your life? Yes, of course, I want it. But the thing is, you know, you get to a certain stage where people don't want to give it to you. Oh, yeah. And I, I have always surrounded myself with truth. George will give it to me. There is no chaser, there is nothing, there is.

• 57:17Emma Grede?

  I know what that feels like. I married a Swedish man, so I get that straightforward critique every day. Yeah.

• 57:23Speaker 04

  Literally.

• 57:24Emma Grede?

  No sides, no dilution.

• 57:26Speaker 04

  The whining, he's supposed to be able to.

• 57:28Emma Grede?

  Forget about it.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  You took the job. You know, it's like, there's not even a, you know, you know, there's no air of anything. You might give me a hug. But yeah, there are a lot of people that I have in my life where they give it to me straight, which I also think has helped me. I remember being like 25 years old and I said, I want to be intellectually honest with myself.

• 57:47Emma Grede?

  Oh, that's a big one.

• 57:48Speaker 04

  And I was like, that's going to take some work.

• 57:50Emma Grede?

  That's going to take a lot of work.

• 57:52Speaker 04

  We talk ourselves into believing and making excuses and having reasons.

• 57:56Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 57:57Speaker 04

  And I was like, I want to hold myself accountable.

• 57:59Emma Grede?

  Well, it works both ways, doesn't it? It's like you can talk yourself in or out of anything every day.

• 58:04Speaker 04

  And so I said.

• 58:05Emma Grede?

  To make it a habit.

• 58:06Speaker 04

  Be accountable.

• 58:07Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 58:07Speaker 04

  You know, no excuses, literally no excuses.

• 58:10Emma Grede?

  No excuses.

• 58:11Speaker 04

  You either did or you didn't.

• 58:12Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 58:12Speaker 04

  And you can't, well, I was tired, I was this, I was that. You either did or you didn't. Do or do not, there is no try. You either did or you didn't. So intellectual honesty forced me to be really clear about when I was not great. When I was not treating someone well. When there were times I would be speaking the words and saying in my head, you're being such a jerk. In my head.

• 58:38Emma Grede?

  Sounds like you're that person for yourself a hell of a lot.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  I would like, I would like, why are you speaking to this person like this? You're being such a jerk.

• 58:46Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 58:46Speaker 04

  Be intellectually honest, or it wasn't your best job.

• 58:49Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 58:50Speaker 04

  It wasn't your best work. We didn't get the account because you just didn't do that well that day. Instead of making so many excuses.

• 58:57Emma Grede?

  And I feel like that is a muscle because that is something that you have to practice. Like that level of honesty, so few people have it. If I take one thing away today from our conversation, that will be it. Just increasing that level of intellectual honesty, because I think it's very, very hard to get there. And I live on group chats. I did not hit the family group chat. I would never do that to you, but my girlfriend group chat, I did hit up. And the question that they wanted to ask you was about difficult conversations and how you learn to get comfortable with having difficult conversations at work. How have you done that?

• 59:33Speaker 04

  I know what I want to know. I don't want to be have people bullshit me. I really want to know. And I think a lot of times we don't tell people what they need to know to make them better. Now, the question is, how do you do it in a way that you don't have to be? I remember Dick Parsons, I was on the board of Estee Lauder with him for years and years. I once asked him for feedback and I said, Dick, be brutally honest with me. He said, I'll be honest, but I don't need to be brutal. And so I do think that I always want to know. And so I I believe people want to know. What I've learned is everyone doesn't. But I still think it's my job to try to give the feedback that will be in the best interest of the firm. All of us.

• 1:00:15Emma Grede?

  That's a great answer. All right, we're going to move to rapid fire. The first thing you do when you wake up in the morning, please.

• 1:00:22Speaker 04

  Look at my phone.

• 1:00:25Emma Grede?

  I just need to make sure the I need to make sure the world is still. Markets overseas are going on.

• 1:00:31Speaker 04

  What are you getting from that at the moment?

• 1:00:33Emma Grede?

  Fire, fire.

• 1:00:35Speaker 04

  No. There's unrelaxing way in the world to wake up. I know, but I do. I look at my phone. I have to, I'm on the West Coast, the East Coast might be up. They are. Because at seven AM, a lot has happened. And so I look at my phone first.

• 1:00:48Emma Grede?

  Okay, fair enough. And the last thing you do before you go to bed?

• 1:00:53Speaker 04

  The last thing I do before I go to bed is I go into my daughter's room and tell her to go to bed and hug her again.

• 1:01:02Speaker 04

  She won't go to sleep.

• 1:01:03Emma Grede?

  Go to sleep. What are you currently aspiring for in your business life?

• 1:01:09Speaker 04

  I want my sports fund to work and I want Ariel to be successful. It's always the same. I just want us to get better at what we do. I don't have any sort of new thing that I have to do.

• 1:01:22Emma Grede?

  Well, I mean, project level, which is your sports fund. I mean, when I heard about that, I actually think you were the first person. And then after you said it, it's just come up over and over and over again. And I saw the amazing panel that you did with.

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  Women's sports.

• 1:01:34Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I mean, the idea that you are taking charge of women's sports, because I think that we're all obsessed with women's sports right now. But it's still, again, it's a it's a man's game. The teams are owned by the men and the, you know, the whole thing is male dominated. And I know you will. Like, there's just no doubt. So good for you. I'm I'm excited for you. What are you aspiring for in your personal life?

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  My daughter to turn out okay. That's my only job. Like, that one feels mission critical, existential. It feels like if I don't do that well, I have failed at everything. And I know she's counting on me. So everything else is a backseat to that. And it feels more important every day. It's different when they're four and when they're eleven. And everything feels different. So in my personal life, I want her to, I don't want to damage her.

• 1:02:26Emma Grede?

  Yeah. No, I totally understand that. I think an eleven-year-old now is like a fourteen, fifteen-year-old. And they, they don't need you less the older they get. They actually need you more and more, which is, I think that, you know, as a mother of four right now, I'm learning that because you kind of feel like, oh, the baby phase is over. And I'm like, no, no, no, this is the, this is the hard part. This is the part where they really need you. It's kind of amazing. Tell me, what is a book that's changed your life?

• 1:02:55Speaker 04

  Wow, there've been so many. I love the book Buffett, The Making of the American Capitalist by Roger Lowenstein. That's my favorite business book. I love the book Grit. And more recently, Angela Duckworth. And more recently, I love the book Unreasonable Hospitality.

• 1:03:11Emma Grede?

  Oh, I never read that.

• 1:03:12Speaker 04

  By Will Goddara about, it's about a restaurant. I love that book. That one really, it is so good.

• 1:03:19Emma Grede?

  Really? I'm so glad you mentioned unreasonable hospitality. I will get it. Okay, what is something that you valued when you were starting out that you don't now?

• 1:03:29Speaker 04

  I think I had a perception of people's accomplishments that I valued in a way that I don't value today. What I mean by that is not to belittle their accomplishments, but I care more about heart and soul than titles or money or influence. And so I value people who care about other people. I always valued it, but I would, I would, I would spend so much time reading about the greats and what made them great and all of those things. Now I want to meet, I want to understand what makes a person a good person.

• 1:04:07Emma Grede?

  That's a fantastic answer. What is something that you value now that you didn't back then?

• 1:04:15Speaker 04

  I have a much different perspective on life. One of our colleagues died last week, so I'm very raw.

• 1:04:20Emma Grede?

  I'm so sorry.

• 1:04:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, he had a heart attack at 50.

• 1:04:23Emma Grede?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:04:23Speaker 04

  And you just, it is a very, very, very, very hard thing. And so the fragility and the fact that at any moment, I had not ever experienced that, of someone I loved just dying one day, out of nowhere. It just has been very, very, very sobering.

• 1:04:41Emma Grede?

  Yeah, it'll rock you to your core.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's gonna take me a while to get over it.

• 1:04:45Emma Grede?

  Yeah. Well, Melody, I was so unbelievably grateful for you being here and taking the time on a Saturday of a day.

• 1:04:55Speaker 04

  Happy to be here.

• 1:04:56Emma Grede?

  But actually even more now because I know that it's so difficult and it speaks to so much, your strength and your character and just the type of person that you are, that once you said you'd come, that after the week and what you've been through this week, that you would come and turn up for me. So I'm super, super grateful and so happy to spend this, you know, couple of hours having the chat. And I feel like so many people will get so much from just, just seeing you, first of all, but also from your very, very wise words. So I'm super grateful.

• 1:05:28Speaker 04

  Well, you are a bright light and we are all watching and we're in the glow basking. And I am so very happy for you and all that you're accomplishing and all that you will still do, which is a lot.

• 1:05:38Emma Grede?

  Thank you, means the most coming from you. Thank you, my dear.

• 1:05:44Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Corinne Gilliard Fisher, Derek Brown and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung Kaiser, Leah Reese Dennis and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox and Kurt Courtney. Social media by Olivia Holman.

• 1:06:28Emma Grede?

  Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sidney Ford, my teams at Jonesworks and WNE, Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Mikul, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemagreed. Greed is spelt G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E, with me, Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

• 1:07:02Speaker 10

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