Never Been In a Long Term Relationship, Scared I Don't Know How To Do This

He's 42 and is in his first real relationship. And he's panicking. He's afraid he doesn't know how to be in a true romantic partnership. With Esther's help, he explores how his past has contributed to his fears of intimacy and abandonment. Topic: Dating & Romantic Consumerism Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, Esther. I am 42 years old and I've never really been in a real romantic relationship. About one and a half month ago, I met this very nice guy. I was in a polyamorous relationship and we have started dating and now we are in a relationship as well. Everything is very nice. We have very nice communication. I feel very safe with him. He's lovely. We have fun. And yet, I feel this constant panic. There's this constant panic inside of me and I don't understand why. Like when he sends a text saying, "Can I ask you something?", I feel scared that this will be bad news. I feel like, "Oh, now something bad is gonna happen."

• 0:45Speaker 00

  It never does. It's always a nice conversation. Whenever I have a question, I can ask him and he always replies in a nice way. So I have no clue what is going on, but I do feel that this panic is getting in the way of exploring this relationship and that it might sabotage it, which I don't want. So I hope you can help me figure out what is going on. Thank you.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  When it's the end of the day and you're settled into the couch looking for your evening watch, you're not looking for Homework the Movie. You're looking for comfort, excitement, or something in between. Whether you're craving something familiar or in the mood to discover something new, Amazon Prime has what you need, from screen to doorstep. Because it's not just about genres or endless content. It's about finding the thing that matches how you're feeling, whatever the mood. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 2:54Esther Perel?

  You have the mic.

• 2:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, with this, I've been struggling. Like, the relationship is very nice, I just keep freaking out.

• 3:04Esther Perel?

  Do you want to start with the part that says, "This is beautiful, I want to savor this, this feels so special, I've been wanting this for so long." Do you want to start with the part that says, "Don't get carried away, this won't last, this can disappear any moment, there's a reason you're still single at 42, and your panic is protecting you."

• 3:38Esther Perel?

  And many other things that I haven't mentioned.

• 3:42Esther Perel?

  Which part do we want to start with?

• 3:45Speaker 00

  I think the second part is what is getting to me.

• 3:51Esther Perel?

  But it's getting to you because you're experiencing the first.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. I I I had tried to rephrase my question this afternoon and I thought. Maybe my question is how to how to deal with a romantic relationship. Like, I'm I'm not used to that. How do how does one do that?

• 4:11Esther Perel?

  So I just met you literally a minute and a half ago.

• 4:16Esther Perel?

  So tell me a little bit more, just give me a little bit of context about your relationship story. And the parts of the story that you would want to hold on to. And harness and the parts of your story that you would like to change or leave behind.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  And you mean in this relationship or previous relationships or?

• 4:43Esther Perel?

  Probably it starts before this one.

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:46Esther Perel?

  The panic is not two days old.

• 4:49Speaker 00

  Definitely not, no.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  I've I've always wanted to find romantic love and to just, you know, have someone you can share something with, to be with. And it never really worked out. Like, I think I was scared a lot, like of of people getting too close, of people expecting things and. Yeah.

• 5:13Esther Perel?

  No, no, there's no yeah. Those two lines are like.

• 5:19Esther Perel?

  Four chapters of a book.

• 5:22Esther Perel?

  So tell me a tiny bit more, so I have some sense of what. You're you're saying the fear of them coming too close and that's that represents an entire realm of experience. A sense of coming with expectations. That's that's code language that you understand.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:41Esther Perel?

  And you fill in all the blanks, but I wouldn't pretend to be able to.

• 5:47Esther Perel?

  Imagine that I know what you're talking about. I can guess, but that won't do it.

• 5:52Speaker 00

  No. I think I've grown up with. The idea or with the family culture in which we learned if someone asks you something, then. You do it, right? You need to be helpful. You need to be nice to people. So if someone asks you something, you you do it. You don't say no to people.

• 6:13Esther Perel?

  Because?

• 6:15Esther Perel?

  What is the value underneath? Kindness, generosity, hospitality, altruism matter because?

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Because otherwise they might not like you, talk bad about you, and that is, you know, you grew up in a small place, that's not a good thing. I mean, I think my,

• 6:37Speaker 00

  we moved to another side of the country, and I think that was mostly because I remember my mother saying, "People always come by here. People are always just walking in the door, uh, just walking in." And now that I'm older, I'm thinking, "Well, you, you could just say, like, this is not the right time. Could you come back later?" Or, you know, um, I think that's a thing that I never learned as well, like to say, "Okay, until here and no further." Or, um, I had panic attacks for a long time, and that all stopped when my psychologist at the time said, "Well, if you don't want to go to the party, then don't go to the party." And that's for me was like, that errored in my head for minutes because I was like,

• 7:22Speaker 00

  "Yeah, I understand what you say, but it doesn't make sense. You don't do that. You don't say no."

• 7:28Esther Perel?

  And do you remember the first time you didn't go?

• 7:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. I remember saying to a friend, "I'm fine with going out tonight with you,

• 7:38Speaker 00

  but I do want to make an agreement that I will go home when I want." And of course she had to laugh and said like, "Yeah, sure, that's fine." But that was a big thing.

• 7:50Esther Perel?

  So the part of my relationship culture that I want to hold on to, or my relationship story that I want to hold on to or value is, and the part of my relationship story that I would like to let go of, what would you say?

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Find it hard to think what I would like to hold on to. I think being there for people, I know my family, we don't have a very close relationship, but if there's anything wrong, they'll be there. It's what we do. And I think that's what I want to keep.

• 8:32Esther Perel?

  It's what we do regardless of how I feel about you. It's the right thing to do.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  And I think the part I want to let go is the...

• 8:46Esther Perel?

  What is the cultural and religious background of the family, by the way?

• 8:51Speaker 00

  We're Dutch.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Used to be Catholic, but not very religious. So the more freer part of Catholicism. Yeah.

• 9:07Esther Perel?

  How many children?

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Four. Yeah.

• 9:11Esther Perel?

  Response to homosexuality?

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Fine. I mean, I came out late. We didn't have a very good relationship when I was younger. But I always knew they were going to be fine. Like, we had more gay people in the family, they came over a lot. And I always learned this was okay.

• 9:33Esther Perel?

  And the feeling that developed under the value of you always say yes when people ask you something, you always put their needs ahead of yours, convey to you a sense that in order to have relationships, you have to be all pleasing of others. And it's about their needs and their expectations.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:02Esther Perel?

  Or they go away and then you don't have relationships?

• 10:07Esther Perel?

  Was it a message of conditional love, so to speak? You either please and do what they want, or they won't hang around?

• 10:15Speaker 00

  I think it was more not knowing how to ask for things, like not knowing how to ask for help or like, you know, you do things by yourself. If people ask, you're nice. But you don't set boundaries for yourself, you don't ask for things for yourself, you don't...

• 10:32Esther Perel?

  Because?

• 10:33Speaker 00

  It's not about you.

• 10:36Esther Perel?

  So relationships are, fill in the blank? If they're not about you?

• 10:44Speaker 00

  A burden.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  I think if I look at my parents, they I find it hard to say, but I think they stayed together for the kids. They did not see that loving relationship.

• 11:00Esther Perel?

  So relationships are a burden. It's all about duty, obligation, doing things to prevent gossip, pleasing others, attending to their needs, not having any room for one's own.

• 11:19Esther Perel?

  Here is this thing that you absolutely long for and hope for your entire life, but is at the same time the thing that you most want to avoid, because who would want that?

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Yes, and I might disappear.

• 11:35Esther Perel?

  Bit of a contradiction.

• 11:36Speaker 00

  Huge contradiction, yeah. Also the fear that I might disappear in it, like, where am I in this?

• 11:44Esther Perel?

  Yeah, like who disappeared in your house, by the way?

• 11:52Esther Perel?

  One of them, both of them?

• 11:54Speaker 00

  And both.

• 11:54Esther Perel?

  Each of you?

• 11:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think a couple of us in the family. Like my mother, definitely.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  My father, in a way.

• 12:06Esther Perel?

  She disappeared how?

• 12:10Speaker 00

  She got a very bad cancer when when I was about thirteen.

• 12:20Esther Perel?

  Stay there for a moment, because you're right there and you're seeing it.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  I had, I had never really, I knew it, but I'd never really realized it until like a month ago that

• 12:37Speaker 00

  the doctor actually said to her like, "Well, we think you have a couple of months to live."

• 12:44Speaker 00

  She survived. But at that time, it just looked like it was over.

• 12:52Esther Perel?

  That must have been so scary.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  It was.

• 12:58Esther Perel?

  And you were very close to your mommy?

• 13:01Speaker 00

  I was.

• 13:04Esther Perel?

  And what happened? I was, I'm no longer?

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Not that close, no.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  We grew apart, I mean, we we call, we have conversations, but it's not, it's not like it was. It was like the time, it was a very tough time, nobody knew what to do, I mean, we were running a house, my father was, I think, the most scared of us all.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  Going up and down to the hospital, having a job. We lived on a farm, it needed to be taken care of, my mother used to do that. Then he needed to do that apart from his other job. And then, you know, yeah, so we

• 13:51Speaker 00

  we were doing the best we can, we could, but

• 13:55Speaker 00

  we didn't have the emotional

• 13:58Speaker 00

  skills to talk or to deal with that. I think my younger brother was the only one who at one point said that he was scared. I don't remember talking with the others about that or...

• 14:12Esther Perel?

  So we all went into survival mode? And we each learned to deal with our fear and our sense of dread and our anticipated loss and our anticipatory grief. Each of us by ourselves, alone, in silence.

• 14:35Esther Perel?

  But did we feel alone or did we feel united and solidarius even though we didn't talk?

• 14:42Speaker 00

  I felt alone.

• 14:44Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  I don't know about the others.

• 14:49Esther Perel?

  And I learned that the more close and attached you are to someone, the bigger the fall if you lose them.

• 14:59Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 15:02Esther Perel?

  Like when you get a question from your boyfriend and you have that irrational panic.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:09Esther Perel?

  That by definition, it must be something bad.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:13Esther Perel?

  Is it the same physical feeling that you had back then?

• 15:17Speaker 00

  I can't remember, actually. Also, because we don't talk a lot at all at home about emotions, never did.

• 15:25Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:26Speaker 00

  So we talked a lot, but not about feelings.

• 15:30Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  A lot of this stuff was also not, not discussed. I think we didn't get a lot of the information. We knew what was going on, but I don't know how much we knew.

• 15:44Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  But it wasn't positive, definitely.

• 15:48Esther Perel?

  But physically, in your body,

• 15:52Esther Perel?

  did you expect that every time somebody would then say something, it wouldn't be necessarily good news?

• 16:00Speaker 00

  No, I don't think, I don't, I don't feel that was.

• 16:05Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  It.

• 16:07Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  At least I don't remember that physical sensation.

• 16:11Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  I mean, there was a lot going on. I was being bullied terribly at school.

• 16:21Esther Perel?

  For?

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Being smarter. I was in the wrong educational track.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  And by the time people discovered it, I was already so scared that I didn't wanna switch anymore. So I was picked on, bullied for like two, three years. That, that physical sensation definitely is this, that I remember.

• 16:46Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 16:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:52Esther Perel?

  You just saw that too.

• 16:57Esther Perel?

  How old?

• 16:59Speaker 00

  I think it started when I was 12. And then growing up gay and in quite a religious area. It was not a place to come out or to find other people who had the same experience.

• 17:17Esther Perel?

  Did you have friends?

• 17:20Speaker 00

  I had some, but I tried very hard, but I think it was more a convenience thing. I don't think we really connected. Like, we lived close together, so you're friends. You cycled school together, you're friends. But also when I was going to the secondary school, I was the only one from primary school who was put in a different group. So I was separated already there.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  So there I was alone.

• 17:50Esther Perel?

  And you couldn't bring any of that home, or you did?

• 17:54Speaker 00

  No.

• 17:55Esther Perel?

  Or there was enough happening at home that you thought?

• 17:58Speaker 00

  No, this was before the things at home started happening, but already I didn't. I was, I was too ashamed to tell about the bullying.

• 18:08Esther Perel?

  Because you made it about you.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  And I think that's the, the constant thing under, under the relationship now as well, that it constantly feel like,

• 18:22Speaker 00

  I'm not enough. I'm too much. I'm taking up too much space. I'm being too much.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  It's this constant, I'm too much and I'm not enough.

• 18:41Speaker 04

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astaire's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So, since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 19:43Speaker 05

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 20:10Speaker 06

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected, powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 20:43Esther Perel?

  So, the man that looks at that boy, that thinks, "What's wrong with me that they pick on me?" It must be me.

• 20:57Esther Perel?

  It's okay.

• 21:05Esther Perel?

  He usually doesn't get to take up the space.

• 21:10Speaker 00

  No.

• 21:11Esther Perel?

  As he just did now.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  No. He doesn't.

• 21:17Esther Perel?

  Hmm. Because what does he do usually?

• 21:22Speaker 00

  Hide.

• 21:23Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  And run.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  Make sure he's not being seen.

• 21:30Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 21:33Esther Perel?

  I'm right here.

• 21:36Esther Perel?

  I'm just meeting him.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  What do you think?

• 21:44Esther Perel?

  He was very hurt. He had to deal with a lot of meanness and cruelty. I've never known a person, particularly, I don't know if that's true, but I was gonna say particularly men, boys, who were bullied

• 22:04Esther Perel?

  and who don't live with it inside of them in their adult life.

• 22:11Esther Perel?

  It just seemed to be one of the most imprinting experiences we have.

• 22:20Esther Perel?

  And the fact that you can't talk about it with anybody because you have to pretend that none of this bothers you. And the fact that it then becomes the thing that follows you for so long. When you say, "Nobody's gonna have that power over me."

• 22:39Esther Perel?

  "I'm gonna stay away from anybody so that nobody can ever touch me like that again."

• 22:47Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 22:48Esther Perel?

  Physical bullying or mental or all of the above?

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Mostly mental.

• 22:53Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. It never got very physical, but I mean...

• 22:57Esther Perel?

  Shaming you of the wazoo.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:00Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. Making fun, asking questions, like, making me feel uncomfortable all the time, like, being very sneaky about it, just...

• 23:11Esther Perel?

  What kind of questions would the boys ask you?

• 23:15Speaker 00

  It was a girl, actually. Mostly a girl.

• 23:19Esther Perel?

  So it's one person?

• 23:20Speaker 00

  It started with, yeah, it was one person who was mostly doing it.

• 23:25Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think the others got pulled into it and just went along, but as soon as she wasn't in the group anymore, things got better.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  Never good, but better. Not as bad as it was with her.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  I mean, obviously, there were the questions like, are you gay? Lots of sexual innuendo questions or puberty insecurity, questions about your body or things you like, or like a very mean one was like, "Look at me." And then I would look at her and then she would go like, "Look away. Look at me. Look away. Look at me. Look away." So degrading. So mean.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Because I didn't know what to do.

• 24:17Speaker 00

  It felt like no one, no one saw it.

• 24:22Speaker 00

  And when

• 24:24Speaker 00

  people saw, people didn't do anything. Worst thing is, there was one teacher and he, he, he wasn't a very good teacher, but he was the only one who said, "I will not accept this in class."

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Still couldn't handle the situation, but it was the only one ever in class who said something about it.

• 24:42Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 24:45Esther Perel?

  And the connection I was making was when you described your boyfriend sending you a message and saying, "Can I ask you a question?"

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:56Esther Perel?

  And that you go into panic.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:59Esther Perel?

  And I just wondered, is there a resonance there

• 25:05Esther Perel?

  between her asking you questions?

• 25:10Esther Perel?

  And you're anticipating a question as being degrading, undermining, ridiculing.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  I think all the questions that he asked me, or like when he says, can I ask you a question? It just always feels like, oh, now he's just gonna say.

• 25:27Esther Perel?

  I'm leaving.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Like, can I ask you a question, like the hang yourself method, right? Like, can I ask you a question, how do you think things are going? I think they're not going great. Bye.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  And like, you didn't know this was coming, you didn't see it coming, but it's not going all right.

• 25:48Esther Perel?

  But tell me something, in the decades that you avoided relationships, romantic relationships, did you use that tactic? Can I ask you a question? How are things going in your mind?

• 26:05Speaker 00

  I must have done, yeah.

• 26:09Esther Perel?

  You seem to know the script so well.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  At the times when I didn't have the skills to just say things, or when I was still in the script of, you know, it's better to do it indirectly, because otherwise people feel hurt.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would probably do that, or just disappear, avoid contact. Yeah.

• 26:39Esther Perel?

  So you know those responses well. And now you find yourself in a relationship with someone you like a lot. And every protective part of you is trying to tell you, don't do it, it's not worth it, you're gonna be disappointed, nobody can meet your needs, you can't meet anybody else's needs, relationships are a burden. And that's one set of messages.

• 27:19Esther Perel?

  But you're in conversation with them. And so, what's the conversation like?

• 27:26Speaker 00

  Chaos.

• 27:30Esther Perel?

  If you had a different conversation with them that says "I'm willing to take the risk."

• 27:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:39Esther Perel?

  Because in effect, all of these voices that tell you "Stay away, stop, don't bother," they pretend to make your life safer, but in effect, they just make your life more lonely.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:54Esther Perel?

  They don't really protect you, even though they present themselves like the security squad.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Funny thing is, when friends are dating and they're scared and trying to run away, there's actually only two questions that are important. Like, do you like the other person? And do you want to see the other person again?

• 28:20Speaker 00

  I'm completely failing to apply that to myself.

• 28:26Esther Perel?

  Can you bring that chair that is behind you and put it next to this chair?

• 28:31Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:37Esther Perel?

  All right.

• 28:39Esther Perel?

  Now, that chair will represent all the pools that say, "Nah, don't bother. Keep going, fill it up." You know your inner voice much better than me.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. "It's not gonna work out. It's not worth it. Keep looking.

• 29:05Speaker 00

  Run, run, run. Just go."

• 29:11Esther Perel?

  All right, now go sit in that chair and tell him. He's right here.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  Tell him what?

• 29:20Esther Perel?

  "Run, get the hell out, why bother? Not worth it."

• 29:26Speaker 00

  That feels so weird.

• 29:28Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 29:30Esther Perel?

  To what, to take the inner?

• 29:32Speaker 00

  It doesn't make sense. Like, I mean, I get your question, but it doesn't make, it doesn't make sense because it's like, it's stupid. Why are you being so stupid? About it.

• 29:42Esther Perel?

  Meaning, why don't you trust what you're experiencing?

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:46Esther Perel?

  You know he likes you, you know you like him.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  I do.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  So just go with that.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  And you'll be fine. You'll be fine.

• 30:01Esther Perel?

  Really?

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:03Esther Perel?

  Alright, so now go back to the other side.

• 30:09Esther Perel?

  Are you so quickly convinced?

• 30:11Speaker 00

  No.

• 30:12Esther Perel?

  Ah, okay. Giving him your pushback.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  It has never worked out. I'm forty-two, it has never worked out. So why would this time work? Given your past experiences, it's more likely that it isn't gonna work. So if I try, it takes a lot of energy. It's gonna hurt a lot if it doesn't work. Because you like him a lot.

• 30:51Speaker 00

  Because you have to take a risk.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  That's life. You can't

• 30:59Speaker 00

  you can't live life without taking the risk and it is fine because you will be alright. You have your friends and people around you who are there, who are stable. Who will not let you go. So

• 31:18Speaker 00

  you will survive this.

• 31:22Esther Perel?

  Are there other histories of romantic hurt? That come up when you tell him it? That you're ready to take risks, that you're ready to open yourself up, that if it hurts, it hurts, but it's a part of life. It's not a reason not to pursue love.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  No, I don't think it... It doesn't feel like it is any of the past relationships that...

• 31:57Speaker 00

  That is this. I think that you'll survive... You'll survive emotion. It's more like... I have struggled with suicidal thoughts in the past.

• 32:10Speaker 00

  I'm not going there anymore. That's been a decision and... I haven't felt like that in years. Don't feel like that now.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  But it is the fear of... What if I don't survive this?

• 32:26Speaker 00

  Together with...

• 32:29Speaker 00

  I grew up in the 80s and 90s. The first thing I saw about gay people is that you die from HIV, AIDS.

• 32:34Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  It was a couple of years ago when I thought... I survived. I was too young to catch anything, but this was the... This was the image that was unprinted on me. On television, in the news, everywhere. You're gay. If you're gay, you're gonna die and it's your own fault.

• 32:57Esther Perel?

  And the only way you survive is by staying away from anyone you would ever want to connect with in any one way or another?

• 33:05Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Because intimacy, sex, is dangerous.

• 33:11Esther Perel?

  Right. What a frightening message.

• 33:18Esther Perel?

  How is the sexual connection between you two?

• 33:21Speaker 00

  Good.

• 33:22Esther Perel?

  I didn't ask you to give me a...

• 33:27Speaker 00

  I mean, it's... No, I feel very safe. I can totally relax. Like, the physical connection is he... He can touch me in places that other people, when they would touch me, would make me feel icky. Yeah, and with him, I'm just... I feel the same, but I enjoy it. Like, the physical sensation is the same, but I... I can let go of it. I relax. I enjoy. I tense up in the right way.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. He's a very good cuddler.

• 34:04Esther Perel?

  And you?

• 34:06Speaker 00

  I love cuddling.

• 34:07Esther Perel?

  Good.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:16Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 34:28Speaker 05

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 34:55Speaker 06

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected, powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 35:25Speaker 07

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors, great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 35:56Esther Perel?

  And does he come with some fears of his own?

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Oh, definitely.

• 36:01Esther Perel?

  Because you shouldn't take up all the fear credits.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no. No, we talk about that.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, and that's, that's why I wanted to talk to you, because it became so clear to me that this is, this is not about the relationship.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  This is not about what he and I have.

• 36:25Esther Perel?

  No, this is about what he and I have, but it feels so special and so fragile and so doomed by culture and history that I would love to surrender to it. I would love to go ahead and celebrate it and scream it on the roofs. But what if?

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. What if and how? How does one do that? How does one do a romantic relationship? You know, like, I was thinking, okay, so what if we don't have anything to say anymore? And then, of course, ignore that, because we'll have stuff to say. But like, those stupid things, like, okay, so what if I'm not doing enough? Or what if it's... yeah.

• 37:15Esther Perel?

  You know, these conversations, I imagine them on the pillow and sometimes on the walk or on the bench, are part of what strengthens the romantic bond.

• 37:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does.

• 37:31Esther Perel?

  The more I care about you, the more I am afraid that I may not be enough for you.

• 37:38Esther Perel?

  And that is a statement that is intrinsic to romantic love.

• 37:48Esther Perel?

  It doesn't have to necessarily connect itself to childhood, to trauma, to bullying, to anything. Just simply, I want to continue to feel as special as I do.

• 38:00Esther Perel?

  But what if I don't? What if one day we stop being attracted to each other? What if one day we have nothing to say to each other? And what makes the romantic bond is that these become conversations that we have together, rather than secret thoughts that express my insecurities.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:21Esther Perel?

  It's the actual display of these thoughts that are more tender, more vulnerable, more insecure, but that are insecurity produced by the intensity of the feelings. And the actual conversation and sharing about it, head to head, face to face, eye to eye, is what deepens the romantic connection.

• 38:49Esther Perel?

  How old is he?

• 38:51Speaker 00

  Forty.

• 38:51Esther Perel?

  Oh, okay.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:55Esther Perel?

  I mean, I'm just saying, you both have history.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  Oh, definitely.

• 38:59Esther Perel?

  And experiences.

• 39:00Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 39:00Esther Perel?

  And avoidances.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:04Esther Perel?

  Okay, we're equal, is what I'm saying.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's one of the things I like about this relationship, that it does feel fairly equal.

• 39:13Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, uh huh. And you both are saying, this is scary?

• 39:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:19Esther Perel?

  But I want it.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:23Esther Perel?

  And the more I want it, and the more scared I am.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  For me, definitely, yeah.

• 39:28Esther Perel?

  Yeah, and for him?

• 39:30Speaker 00

  I've not asked that question.

• 39:32Esther Perel?

  Okay, here is your next one.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:37Esther Perel?

  Because I tie the level of my fear with the level of my intention, my desire, my attraction, and my love. And you can switch the order.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:53Esther Perel?

  So what was your question?

• 39:58Speaker 00

  I think my first question was, what causes the panic?

• 40:03Speaker 00

  And then later, I thought, like, why can't I just enjoy this? I can't just be in the moment and enjoy this relationship, instead of constantly being in my head and panicking about it.

• 40:16Esther Perel?

  And do we have any nuggets?

• 40:21Speaker 00

  I think one is, it's okay to panic.

• 40:24Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 40:26Speaker 00

  Because it's a sign of how much you care about the relationship, or how deep you're going into it. It's good to communicate about it.

• 40:36Esther Perel?

  Maybe we shouldn't call it panic.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  No.

• 40:39Esther Perel?

  Because you call it panic, and then you think it's gonna be a sabotage, and you have a whole narrative about the panic. Maybe it's just simply excitement and insecurity often live side by side.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, but last week, to the point where I really wanted to run.

• 40:58Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And so, when the part of you that says, why bother? Let's run, too scary, then you bring in the chair.

• 41:11Esther Perel?

  And you just ground that one.

• 41:17Esther Perel?

  You have a name for it?

• 41:20Speaker 00

  No.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Him.

• 41:27Esther Perel?

  Him, the runner? Him what?

• 41:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. Him, scary cat.

• 41:33Esther Perel?

  Okay. But not with contempt.

• 41:39Esther Perel?

  Not with contempt.

• 41:44Esther Perel?

  He may be a scary cat, he may be... You know?

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:49Esther Perel?

  A lot of different things, but if you go at him with contempt and self-loathing, which I think is what you have done,

• 42:01Esther Perel?

  he becomes more tenacious.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:07Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah, laugh at me. We love, best word, who will love last.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:14Esther Perel?

  So, he demands recognition, he demands kindness, he demands understanding, he demands compassion. He has a reason to exist.

• 42:28Esther Perel?

  He didn't come out of nowhere. But to have the two chairs helps you not just to see me, but more a side of me, a voice in me, a part of me. But there's another voice. There are other parts. There are other facets. And they are all in conversation with each other. Rather than I become the sum total of this side of me, and then I become the sum total of that side of me. And each one is trying to push the other one down.

• 43:10Speaker 00

  So, instead of pushing each other down?

• 43:15Esther Perel?

  The stage is big enough for a cast of characters.

• 43:20Esther Perel?

  One says, "Go for it." The other one says, "Don't bother." The other one says, "But I want to." The other one says, "Yes, but look what that does to people." The other one says, "Talk to him." The other one says, "No, keep it inside." There's a lot of different, you know. And part of the romantic stage, if you want, is that we actually get to tell somebody, "Do you want to really meet the cast of characters that is behind the curtain?" All these parts of me, all these characters, each one of them pulling in another direction. Sometimes they come together for a bit. What's your theater like?

• 44:05Esther Perel?

  Who's in your dramatic plot called love?

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:11Esther Perel?

  Adult, gay, romantic, passionate, sexual, sensual, all of that.

• 44:23Esther Perel?

  They get normalized, rather than seen as this tyrannical, destructive sabotage.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, that is what I'm doing.

• 44:35Esther Perel?

  "Hi, you. Haven't heard from you in a while. What do you come to tell me today?" Listen to them, welcome them, offer them tea, and then tell them, "We'd love to see you again, but not today."

• 44:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:56Esther Perel?

  And when they bring tears to you, like today, just give it some space.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:05Esther Perel?

  Without invalidating it, dismissing it, criticizing it, like, "What the fuck are you doing?"

• 45:14Speaker 00

  That's gonna be tough.

• 45:18Esther Perel?

  I don't imagine you're gonna do all of this just like that on the spot.

• 45:26Esther Perel?

  But you're gonna try this, a little of this and a little of that.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:31Esther Perel?

  None of this is a pass fail, okay?

• 45:35Esther Perel?

  This is about changing the dial tone.

• 45:39Esther Perel?

  Upling some and lowering others. Okay?

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Yes, thank you.

• 45:46Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 46:01Speaker 04

  This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Parel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

• 46:43Speaker 04

  And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Astaire Parel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 47:44Speaker 05

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalised products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.