Healing Family Estrangement: What To Say, And What Never to Say.

Between 10 and 15 percent of mothers and 1 in 4 fathers are currently estranged from a child. If those numbers feel shocking, the harder truth might be this: most of the moves parents instinctively make once estrangement begins are the exact moves that keep the door shut. Dr. Joshua Coleman has spent more than four decades as a practicing psychologist and is a Senior Fellow with the Council on Contemporary Families. His own daughter once cut off contact with him. That experience, and everything he has learned since, shaped his work helping families find their way back to each other. He is one of the most trusted voices in the country on family estrangement and reconciliation. In this conversation, you will explore: Why estrangement rates are at historically high levels and what massive cultural shifts are driving themThe five defensive moves parents make that almost always make things worse, including why fighting for fairness is the most damaging trap of allWhat a genuinely healing apology actually sounds like, and why most apologies miss the mark entirelyWhy radical acceptance and hope are not opposites, and how to hold both at the same timeHow the principles of repair transfer to sibling estrangements and to grandparents cut off from grandchildren If someone you love has pulled away and you cannot figure out why, or if you are the one who has needed distance and are wondering what repair could look like, this is the conversation for it. You can find Joshua at: Website https://drjoshuacoleman.com/ | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dr.josh.coleman/ | Family Troubles Substack https://joshuacolemanphd.substack.com/ | Episode Transcript https://www.goodlifeproject.com/podcast/family-estrangement-repair-joshua-coleman Next week, I am going solo, actually for the entire week, for a two-part midyear summer series about really taking a fresh look at where we are right now. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss it. Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the Wheel https://jonathanfields.substack.com/aboutVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sponsors/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jonathan Fields?

  So what do you do when your child wants nothing to do with you and refuses to even communicate anymore? Most parents believe that if they just explain themselves clearly enough, the door will kind of magically reopen. Decades of research say the opposite. The moves that tend to feel most natural when estrangement begins are almost always the exact moves that keep it going. In this conversation, we talk about why estrangement is at historically unprecedented levels and what specific cultural forces are driving the surge. We talk about the five traps that parents tend to fall into almost universally and why, quote, "fighting for fairness" may be the single most damaging one.

• 0:42Jonathan Fields?

  We explore what a genuinely healing move actually requires, word by word, and how to hold radical acceptance and real hope at the same time without letting either one hollow you out. Our guide is psychologist and senior fellow with the Council on Contemporary Families, Dr. Joshua Coleman. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project, and we'll jump right in after the break.

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• 3:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, we have to assume that there's always been estrangements, but probably never at the numbers that we're currently seeing. You know, one study said that something like 26% of dads are estranged from a child and between 10 to 15% are estranged from a mother. And that's probably historically new, even though we've only recently begun to track it. And I think it's in part because of the way that there's been this huge cultural shift away from the sort of structure that families had for really millennia. Honor thy mother and thy father. Families forever, respect thy elders, which is very similar to what most cultures in the world still have.

• 4:11Speaker 04

  And it's shifted much more into this kind of notion that family is just one more group of people that can either interfere with your mental health or promote it, or your identity, or your happiness. And when that becomes the case, not only can you cut out a family member, but you should cut out a family member. So there's a bunch of other contributing factors that amplify that. But I think that's the most important thing is this huge cultural shift.

• 4:37Jonathan Fields?

  It's interesting, right? Because when we think about family estrangement, and this could be whether it's a parent or child, or siblings, or grandparents. So we'll dip a little bit into each one of those different contexts. I feel like when when an individual experiences, we're not thinking about the big cultural context here. It's like, this is horrific, it's angst ridden, it never leaves your heart and your mind and your body, and this is your day. And what you're describing is there are bigger shifts. Like, this is not just something that's happening within the family unit, within two people or three people. There's a much bigger cultural context here that's behind this.

• 5:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if we think about the pathways to estrangement, for example, you know, people often think, well, people only cut off a parent, for example, if there's been abuse, and that is certainly a pathway to estrangement, verbal abuse or physical abuse. But also today, people get estranged over political differences. You know, a survey I did with the Harris School, we found a significant, people became estranged from the last election. That's historically new, right? I mean, 20 years ago, if your kid was going to marry somebody from the opposite party, you'd say, well, as long as they love each other, that's the most important thing. Now, it's like, people from the opposite party are considered the enemy, and the idea of treating them even violently is considered

• 5:50Speaker 04

  somehow legitimate. The role of therapy, we've become much more of a therapy culture. Therapists have become the new high priest in terms of determining who should be kept in or outside of our lives, and therapists have become what the sociologist Alison Pugh calls detachment brokers, meaning they're people who sort of help us to detach from people that in other generations, we feel obligated to be involved with. So, therapy and therapists as being one of the primary ways that we make sense of our relationships has also become incredibly important. And alongside of that, Instagram influencers, social media influencers, where people kind of collect and become form communities in

• 6:32Speaker 04

  an increasingly fractured society, high rates of divorce is quite, quite common, rising rates of individualism. You know, as a society, we have the highest rates of individualism than any other culture on earth. And individualism is important because with an individualistic culture, you're preoccupied with my own identity, my own personal happiness, my own personal growth, and getting rid of the people who stand in the way of that. So there's been this kind of confluence of factors that have really served as amplifiers of estrangement.

• 7:06Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense to me. Which brings up a question.

• 7:11Jonathan Fields?

  You shared at the top of our conversation, these kind of shocking statistics, you know, like potentially one in four dads are estranged from kids, potentially somewhere around 10% to 15% of moms estranged from kids.

• 7:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:23Jonathan Fields?

  And the way you're laying it out, though, I guess my curiosity is, the initial knee jerk reaction, you know, for me, especially as a parent, I'm like, it's horrific. That's the, it just like absolutely traumatizing. It's, you know, like it's a fracturing of cultures, a fracturing of family. Underneath that number, though, is it actually all bad?

• 7:44Speaker 04

  Well, no. I mean, I think there's a good news, bad news here, where prior generations couldn't really legitimately, and in many cultures still couldn't, cut out a legitimately abusive family member because there'd just be so much social pressure. And people who cut out a truly abusive family member, even in our society, still will experience some pressure from either siblings, or grandparents, or, or whatever. But today, people have many more advocates to support them in their estrangement. They have therapists, they have online communities, they've got books, et cetera. And that is, that is a good thing, that people aren't obligated

• 8:24Speaker 04

  to be close to or expose themselves to people who are truly hurtful and destructive. So it's not, it's not an unambiguous, terrible thing, but it's a good news, bad news, kind of a change.

• 8:37Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I mean, that lands with me. You know, there, there's more opportunity to actually withdraw yourself from a situation which is truly harmful.

• 8:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 8:47Jonathan Fields?

  And find other ways to feel supported in that decision.

• 8:52Speaker 04

  Right.

• 8:52Jonathan Fields?

  At the same time, I wonder if, you know, as you mentioned, the internet and influencers, you know, like there, there tends to be this pop psychology slash influencer lens that says, Anybody who does not immediately support you, your dreams, your visions, the way you want to be in the world, jettison them from your life. They are not for you anymore, no matter who they are.

• 9:13Speaker 04

  Right.

• 9:14Jonathan Fields?

  That's problematic too, isn't it?

• 9:16Speaker 04

  Incredibly problematic. And it's all part of being this individualistic culture where we're very preoccupied with our own boundaries and happiness. And when that is the case, then cutting out people becomes this kind of rituous act of self-protection and assertiveness. And I'm being the kind of person that I want to be, and I'm getting rid of toxic people. And it sounds really good on the face of it, but at the same time, we have record high rates of mental illness and loneliness and social fracture and social isolation and people not having the same number of friends that earlier generations had, in part because we have become so preoccupied with what makes me happy, who makes me happy, et cetera. And I think that that is a quite serious problem in our society.

• 9:56Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I wonder if part of, you know, what we've all seen happen, I feel like in the last generation, if not a shorter window, maybe the last five, 10 years also, is it also becomes an excuse to remove people from your life who do not believe the things you believe and see the world exactly as you see it, which from a societal standpoint, is not what we want. Like, we want the friction. We want the engagement. We want to actually figure out how to hush it out.

• 10:21Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah, I mean, you know, the cognitive behavioral therapists say that the best way to resolve somebody or something that you're afraid of isn't to withdraw or avoid it, it's to engage it. And I think that's also true in the social and in the political, this idea that people who disagree with you and your values and your beliefs are somehow the enemy, is really just making us much, much weaker as a society and individually. We become stronger through engaging with people, learning how to tolerate their differences, learning how to learn from them if they are different from us, learning how to stand up for ourselves and protect ourselves certainly. But if your main go-to move is to cut people off and withdraw from them, then you're not really making yourself stronger. You're just becoming more and more avoidant.

• 11:05Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and you're surrounding yourself with...

• 11:10Jonathan Fields?

  Without any opinions, that would make you actually consider who you are in the world and how the world is.

• 11:16Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 11:17Jonathan Fields?

  Which I think is a big part of why the world is the way it is right now. Like, we exist in our own curated bubbles. So if I zoom the lens out for a second, we're seeing increases in the rate of estrangement. Some of this may actually be not a good thing on a number of different levels. Some of it, there may be an underlying subtext here that says, you know, part of that is, people actually feel more empowered and supported to do something that is healthy and constructive and safe for them.

• 11:46Speaker 04

  Right.

• 11:46Jonathan Fields?

  So it's complicated.

• 11:48Speaker 04

  It's complicated, for sure. Yeah.

• 11:51Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. When we, we've used the word estrangement a number of times now. When we talk about estrangement, what are we actually talking about?

• 12:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, when I think about somebody being estranged, I think of a real cutoff, not just somebody who's more distant than we'd like. It's a relationship where that person basically says, no contact. I don't want any contact with you. I mean, maybe if it's an adult child, maybe they reach out on the parent's birthday or something, but otherwise, there's nothing and that can go on for years. So when I think about estrangement, I'm thinking about people who are, there's really a severing of the relationship.

• 12:26Jonathan Fields?

  Let's dive a little bit more into what I would imagine is really one of the primary circumstances or the primary relationships, a parent and a kid.

• 12:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:37Jonathan Fields?

  A lot of our community are parents, you know, in middle season of life. And, you know, things don't always go smoothly.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  No, they don't.

• 12:48Jonathan Fields?

  Talk to me about the parent who shows up in a situation where you have a kid, there's been a lot of tension, there's been a lot of friction, and it ends, maybe, let's not use the word end, actually, you're in a moment of estrangement. One or both of you have completely pulled back. There's no interaction anymore. And then you have the parent who shows up, maybe on your doorstep, in your clinical practice, saying, I feel like I did everything right. And genuinely bewildered that their kid has, quote, turned their back on them or abandoned them.

• 13:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:29Jonathan Fields?

  Zoom out here and...

• 13:34Jonathan Fields?

  What often is really going on that that is not right there on the surface?

• 13:40Speaker 04

  Well, every case is different, but one of the things I've learned is that there's basically five pathways to to an estrangement. You know, as we were talking about earlier, there can be abuse or neglect. When the adult child gets married, I did a survey of 1,600 estranged parents and a significant 70% of them weren't estranged till their child got married.

• 14:02Jonathan Fields?

  Wow.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  Marriage can be a flashpoint, particularly if the son-in-law or daughter-in-law doesn't like the parents and says something like, choose them or me, you can't have, you can't have both. Mental illness in the parent or addictions in the parent are common, but as an estrangement, but also in the adult child. Bad therapy, therapists have sort of assumed that every problem in adulthood comes from a dysfunctional family, which is just simply not the case. Divorce is huge. Also, in my survey, it was a significant percentage of the people who became estranged had a divorce in their past. And sometimes it's just normal separation individuation that causes the adult child to need more more distance from the parent. So, so when I meet with a parent, typically it's the

• 14:46Speaker 04

  parent that reaches out to me because and typically it's because the adult child is the one who's done the estrangement. And you're right, often, not infrequently, they're like, I have no idea. I was a really good parent. And they'll show me a letter that just a year before said, best mom or best dad ever. I'm so grateful for you. And now they're rewriting history. And again, there can be those various pathways to cause an adult child to to land with that kind of a narrative. So, so my method is really to help the parent to deepen their understanding of the adult child's reasons for the estrangement, to show empathy, to take responsibility, to find the kernel, if not the bushel of truth

• 15:28Speaker 04

  in the reason that the child is estranged, which can be hard for parents, but there's really no other pathway back. And the reason for that is that nothing compels an adult child today to have a relationship with a parent beyond that adult child's desire. So if the parent isn't really willing to do the work, which means being more self reflective, more psychological, more egalitarian, then the adult child is going to say, oh, this relationship just doesn't work for me. You're not respecting my boundaries. You're not respecting my ideals of what to me constitutes a good, loving relationship. You're not taking responsibility for the past. So, so I have no, no interest. So a lot of my work with

• 16:09Speaker 04

  parents is really helping them to understand how the adult child came to see the parent in the way that they did and why they believe that being estranged from them is really the healthiest thing for them to do.

• 16:24Jonathan Fields?

  And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

• 16:28Jonathan Fields?

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• 19:55Jonathan Fields?

  So if I'm hearing you correctly, then part of this is this this cultural generational difference in expectation.

• 20:03Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 20:04Jonathan Fields?

  You know, where it sounds like what you're saying is the parent kind of shows up saying like, the way it is and the way it has always been with parents and kids is you respect us, we're your parents.

• 20:14Speaker 04

  Right.

• 20:15Jonathan Fields?

  You know, you've heard the word come out of parents' mouths, like, I gave you life. And now you have to actually like show up and be here for me and respect me. And and the kid is looking at the parent saying, times are different, man. You know, like, I owe you nothing. I didn't ask to be here. I'm here now and I'm I'm my own human being and I need to do the thing that's right and healthy for me.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 20:36Jonathan Fields?

  How do you even begin to break to that?

• 20:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I mean, helping parents really just understand this enormous cultural shift is really helpful to parents because a lot of them don't understand that there's been this profound cultural shift. And they they do sort of, and a lot of these parents who are strange now actually were better parents than their own parents were. You know, they gave their children a life they wish that somebody had given given them. And when their adult child comes to them and says, oh, you were emotionally abusive, or you're an emotionally immature parent, or you neglected me, the parents often feel like, what the hell are you even talking about? I would have killed for your childhood. You consider that neglect? I wish I had had that kind of neglectful childhood. But it's really a matter of helping educate parents just that their children are being

• 21:24Speaker 04

  raised in a time which is a very different, a very different era. And that alone is helpful to parents. But I also, you know, will cite the study done by the Australian psychologist Nick Haslam that was done in 2016. And one of the things that Haslam found was that in the past three decades, at least the three decades leading up to the study, there's been an enormous expansion or an enormous lowering of the threshold of what gets labeled as traumatic, abusive, neglectful, harmful behavior. So younger generations have been reared in that kind of belief system of which is a much lower threshold. For what constitutes abuse or harm or trauma, whereas the parents, you know, boomers and Gen Xers

• 22:09Speaker 04

  are raised during a time where the the standards for what gets called abuse was just much, much higher. So helping educate parents that that the the times have changed and that what your child has been raised in is very different. Parents will often say to me, well, I didn't raise my kid like that. And I'm like, no, your kid wasn't just raised by you. They were also raised by the internet or by their therapists or by the culture at large. And so helping them kind of learn how to become more fluent in that language and more importantly, to see that nothing compels the child to have a relationship with them unless the parent can get fluent in that more contemporary language, which was certainly not the culture that the parent was raised in. There's a lot of value there, but it can also be completely

• 22:54Speaker 04

  misused and misunderstood. I don't think that the that the younger adults who are saying they were harmed are lying about it or even manipulating. I think that that's that's the culture that they were they were raised in, but it doesn't necessarily serve them. And it certainly doesn't serve the people that they're accusing of harming them.

• 23:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, it is really interesting, right? Because there's this really gray line. It sounds like what you're describing between discomfort and harm.

• 23:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes.

• 23:23Jonathan Fields?

  You know, discomfort being this thing, we're all going to feel it. We're going to feel conflict. And in the right circumstances with, you know, the right amount of psychological safety, it's actually important for us to stay in that. And work through it together, but it can tip into this place where it's actually not safe anymore. It's not appropriate. And it's so subjective, right?

• 23:42Speaker 04

  Well, that's the problem is that it is so subjective. You could have identical twins. One emerging saying that the parent was really critical and abusive and the other one saying, no, they weren't because even with people who have a similar genetic presentation, they're still going to experience the parents differently in some kind of way. And that's why I tell parents getting into the rightness or the wrongness of it in general doesn't really serve you. Really learning how to empathize with what your child's experience was is far more important. So commonly, an adult child Might say you emotionally abused me and if the parent has no understanding of that or doesn't think that reckons with what their own experience of their parenting was, I encourage parents to say, well,

• 24:24Speaker 04

  it's clear that I have blind spots as a person or as a parent that I wasn't aware that that that that felt emotionally abusive to you, but I'm glad that you let me know and is it's that's something we can work on together. In family therapy, or if there's things you would like me to work on in my own therapy, I'm I'm open to that. So yeah, the subject, the subjective state of the person who's accusing the other of being hurtful or abusive is important because it's, you know, even if objectively somebody doesn't seem like they're being abusive, the person who's saying they felt abused or harmed.

• 24:57Speaker 04

  Says that, then the person who wants that relationship with them has to be interested in understanding how they arrived there. They're never going to prove them wrong. Right. So they have to be, that's why empathy and understanding and curiosity are so important as features of of healing, because the more that they can really deepen their understanding and show curiosity and interest, the more the person's going to say, okay, well, you really, you care about me. Otherwise proving somebody wrong feels like an act of uncaring.

• 25:24Jonathan Fields?

  I'm curious about the idea of an inciting incident or a rift, a moment, a something, a trigger that sets in motion the estrangement. I would imagine that oftentimes, you know, i- i- if you can get two people to show up in your office, or when you you've just seen this through all of your work over the years, that oftentimes people will point to something like this is when the thing happened.

• 25:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:51Jonathan Fields?

  Is that true? Or is there something else going on here?

• 25:55Speaker 04

  Both can be, it can be true that it's that it is a sort of a line that gets crossed or precipitating incident, and it can also be true that it's just sort of a slow erosion in the relationship or some other outside factor. You know, so for example, if, you know, let's say dad yelled at his son's wife or something, that might be the final straw for the for the son, or it might be such an egregious act if the son just cuts them, cuts them off, or, you know, people who. Didn't like Trump rejecting the parent because they voted for Trump. I have a lot of those people in my, a lot of those parents in my, my practice. So those can be in some ways of what, what the researcher Carl Pillman recalls a volcanic act, something that just

• 26:39Speaker 04

  where there's a big explosion or a big fight. But that isn't the only, there's, there's often more sort of slow erosions or can be kind of a death by a thousand cuts. Let's say it's a parent who's critical, isn't very aware of their being ongoing, critical in an ongoing way or insensitive about it. And where the adult child just feels like, I've just, I've had enough. I can't tolerate being around you anymore. And I just need, need to have the space. So.

• 27:06Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Do you see friction happening where one person is pointing to the thing? And the other person is like, no, this was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Like this is not, yes, this is a pattern that's been going on for months or years, maybe decades. This is a much bigger thing. And one person just says, no, it was this one thing.

• 27:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:29Jonathan Fields?

  And where one person wants to solve the thing, the moment, the crack, and the other person is like, we're, it's almost like we're speaking two different languages.

• 27:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. And that's why people who are, who are estranged over politics and it's, you know, usually the adult child cutting off the parent. I tell the parent, widen your lens, you know, assume that it's not just about politics, even though I do think that politics these days can be enough of a reason. But, but in, in the service of deepening the relationship, say, well, maybe there are other complaints that you have about me, you know, maybe it's not just my political values. Maybe there's things from childhood that are also bothering you, or there's other parts of my personality that you find difficult. So when I encourage parents to widen the lens, it's just a way of saying, go, go deeper, but it's, it's sort of a way of showing more commitment to the other person and more caring for them and more, more of a concern for them. That

• 28:22Speaker 04

  doesn't always work. There's nothing I can tell any particular person that I can say with confidence. Just do this, you know, do Coleman's five steps and you're guaranteed because people are so different and are motivated by so many different factors. But, but in terms of general principles, particularly for the parents, being able to show empathy, interest, compassion, taking responsibility, being self-reflective, being willing to go to therapy for themselves or do family therapy. Those are really the key ingredients.

• 28:51Jonathan Fields?

  One of the things that comes to mind also, and this is something you speak about and you write about, is this notion of, yes, it would be lovely if every parent that showed up and, and you know, you explain this to them would say like, okay, tell me how, I'm completely willing, I'm open to this, but we are human beings.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  Yes, we are.

• 29:08Jonathan Fields?

  When we feel not just the sadness or the grief of a rift, of a loss of estrangement, we also often feel anger.

• 29:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:16Jonathan Fields?

  Like, we as a parent, as an adult, are going to feel maybe as attacked, if not more than the child. You write that parents often make these five kind of predictable mistakes once estrangement is on the horizon. I would love to, not in like an extraordinary depth, but but kind of walk through them because each feels like a trap that a parent can fall into. And maybe let's start with the one that feels like it's kind of underneath everything else. You say a lot of parents are operating on the notion of, quote, fairness.

• 29:49Speaker 04

  Right.

• 29:50Jonathan Fields?

  Why is fairness of all things, the thing that just sinks everything from the beginning?

• 29:54Speaker 04

  Well, because if you feel like something is unfair, you're probably not going to communicate in a way that your adult child needs you to communicate. You're going to act, tell them that they're not being nice, or they're not being mean, or that they're being mean, or cruel, or unfair. And that's just not going to persuade the adult child who feels like estrangement is in their best interest to feel like you're really trying to to grapple with what it is that they're complaining about. They obviously feel like it is fair. So just, just saying it's not fair feels to them like you're completely missing the point.

• 30:28Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, which has got to be really interesting also for, I was gonna say, for the parent who has as one of their sacred values fairness.

• 30:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:43Jonathan Fields?

  But then I would imagine if you have both the kid and the parent, where fairness is sort of like the, at the top of the value chart for them.

• 30:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 30:51Jonathan Fields?

  And they both see themselves as being the the arbiters, the bastions of fairness in this conflict.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:58Jonathan Fields?

  That's gotta be tough.

• 30:59Speaker 04

  Oh, it's tough. Yeah. And, and parents have to kind of take the high road. First of all, because they're parents. And from my perspective, you know, the buck stops with us as parents. So if anybody's going to take the high road, it should be us. I mean, ideally, I want everybody to take the high road. But, but in a family therapy reconciliation environment, you know, I tell parents, particularly if we're doing family therapy with the parent, the parent, the adult child, that this isn't, this isn't marriage therapy, you know, where you get an equal claim about what the relationship is going to look like, how much time you get to see your kid, how much time you get to be with your grandkids. It's more like you were married and your spouse left, and they're willing to give you another chance. It means it's going to have to be much more on their terms. And you're going to have

• 31:41Speaker 04

  to be able to be sensitive and open and responsive to what feels good to them or what they want in a relationship. And no, it's not. It isn't fair. I'll just say, I get why that doesn't feel fair to you. It sounds like you were a dedicated parent. Your kid may disagree with, with you or me, but it sounds like you were a dedicated parent. And in a fair world, yeah, you'd be able to, you know, negotiate a kind of relationship that you really want. But once somebody has estranged themselves, you know, all bets are off. It's, it's going to be much more on their terms as a kind of a cost of reentry.

• 32:15Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Do, do you also see this almost sort of like second tier of fairness come up where, okay, there's the initial fairness around like whatever the, the rift was. But then there's this other thing saying, okay, for us to actually have any hope of bridging this, there's going to need to be a certain level of emotional labor. Why should it be me?

• 32:36Speaker 04

  As the parent, you mean?

• 32:37Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 32:39Speaker 04

  Well, the answer is because your child's not going to do it. I mean, it goes back to give to this fundamental principle that, um, you know, that nothing's compelling your child to be back in contact with you. For, for the adult child's perspective, estrangement's working for them. I mean, they may have guilt about it. They may have sadness. They may have regret, but they wouldn't be doing it unless they thought it was in their best interest. And in fact, when I tell parents to reach out, the adult child, I tell them to say, I know you wouldn't do this unless you felt like it was the healthiest thing for you to do. Now, the parent may not feel like that. But but the adult child does, and unless the parent can really position themselves in that way, then no good is going to come of their communication.

• 33:20Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, no, that makes sense to me. So fairness is is sort of like the the the top of this list and maybe the bottom and the through line through much of it.

• 33:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:30Jonathan Fields?

  Let's kind of briefly walk through the the other four, but because these are moves that that like defensive moves that kind of probably feel natural and reasonable to a hurting parent.

• 33:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:41Jonathan Fields?

  They quietly make it worse.

• 33:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:43Jonathan Fields?

  Motivating through guilt is one of them.

• 33:45Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. Yeah, it used to be, you know, I'm I'm Jewish and my, you know, I had a Jewish mother. And so when I moved to California, she could call me up and say, oh, so Mr. Fancy Psychologist, you know, you're too too busy to call your poor mother in Dayton, Ohio, you know. And I wasn't going to label it as, you know, emotional abuse on her part or narcissism or whatever. It was just kind of how she communicated and people of that generation communicated. But that that ship has sailed. Now guilt tripping your kid, using guilt as a motivator, is going to be experienced to the adult child as as a form of emotional abuse or gaslighting them or a boundary crossing. And it's just not going to get you what you

• 34:28Speaker 04

  want. The the adult child is going to come back into contact with the parent of their own volition. They have to feel like it works for them. It's not going to be if guilt worked, they probably wouldn't be estranged. But it's wouldn't work because the adult child needs to feel like the relationship is something that really feels inviting and safe and reasonable to them. So, yeah, guilt just doesn't is not persuasive.

• 34:50Jonathan Fields?

  Another of these defensive traps that that that parents can fall into, returning fire with fire.

• 34:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a big one. It's a mistake that I see a lot of parents, a lot of therapists of the estranged parent make, which is, well, you need to set limits on your adult child, and you need to tell them what your boundaries are. And, you know, you need to not let them talk to you that way. And I mean, there's a place to to be assertive about ones, you know, how one's being spoken to. But but for, you know, the adult child, even if they're not being appropriate in their Anger or feelings, how they're expressing themselves for the parent to kind of meet them there. It really won't work. A parent has to come from a position of, you know, loving or at least enough of an affectionate authority if they want to be persuasive towards a reconciliation, returning fire, getting, kid gets mad at you and you get mad back.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  You're probably only going to persuade them that you're not safe to be with them. They may not be able to take responsibility for the ways that they're being disrespectful.

• 35:48Jonathan Fields?

  Pause for a second. Say that again, like that first part, because I think it's really important.

• 35:53Speaker 04

  So if you're the parent and you're returning fire with fire, there's a huge threat to your child's feeling safe. First of all, they may not be even aware that they're being as aggressive as they are, or even how that's impacting you. And so when you respond equally or even worse, that's just going to make them feel that much more threatened and unsafe in your presence. And it's going to cause them just to withdraw even further.

• 36:14Jonathan Fields?

  Objectively, when you're pulled out, we're having this rational conversation that this all sounds, well, of course, when you're in the heat of the moment.

• 36:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course.

• 36:21Jonathan Fields?

  Very different thing.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  Right. They're mistakes that every, every parent makes. It's what I call getting into the quicksand. As soon as your kid estranges you or starts to estrange you, you're going to make all of them because you're just part of human nature. And most parents haven't really been educated about how to talk in this way. Cause it's a, you know, comparatively more recent phenomenon.

• 36:42Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And also, you know, like there's a certain assumption that quote, cool heads will prevail, but

• 36:46Speaker 04

  Right.

• 36:47Jonathan Fields?

  Like you need the skills and the practices to be able to access, quote, you know, those cool heads in the first place, or else rationality goes out the window.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  Completely. And particularly if you as a parent actually came from a truly traumatic background, you probably just don't have the reserves and the resources to respond appropriately. So.

• 37:04Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 37:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, that makes it harder.

• 37:06Jonathan Fields?

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• 39:49Jonathan Fields?

  Assuming that reconciliation, that the repair will just kind of like you can snap your fingers and all will be good. It can happen really quickly. Not a good thing.

• 40:00Speaker 04

  Well, no, what I tell parents is you have to have one foot in radical acceptance and one foot in in hope. You know, hope statistically, something like 80% of children return to mothers, 70% return to fathers in a study I did with Phil and Carolyn Cowan at Berkeley. We found that couples who stayed married had a better chance of an eventual reconciliation than than those who who weren't. So, you know, significant percentage of these of young adult adult who cut off contact do do eventually come back into the fold. So it's reasonable to have some foot in hope, but you can't live there because there's such a thing as pathological hope. And radical acceptance, if you're in the midst of an estrangement, is a much better position psychologically

• 40:44Speaker 04

  because you're not white knuckling it through life. You know, you're not telling yourself, oh, God, if I can't live again unless I see my have my child and my grandchildren in it. No, you have to have some acceptance that that is this is the way that it is and may continue to be.

• 40:57Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 41:00Jonathan Fields?

  The last defensive move here, for lack of a better phrasing, assuming that the distance is all about you.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  Right, because by the time we have adult children, you know, they're front and center of our consciousness, and particularly if we have grandchildren, you know, we're thinking about them all the time in one form or another. But for our adult children, they're not thinking about us all the time. I mean, I think of my, my parents, they weren't really front and center of my mind in the way that my children and grandchild is for me. And, you know, so, and I just assume that's true of my adult children, other people's adult children as well. People, younger generations are preoccupied with their own marriages, or their divorces, or raising their children, or their careers, or their social lives. Parents, you know, are pretty far down the list. So a lot of what parents personalize these days, uh, may

• 41:52Speaker 04

  not have anything to do with the relationship. But a worsening, uh, aspect of that is just cell phone use has made it that the parent can feel rejected. There's thousands of ways a parent can feel rejected. If they send a text, or they send an email, or, you know, and there's not an immediate response, it's like, well, what does that mean? Does my child hate me? Why aren't they responding? And I wrote them, you know, 12 hours ago, I still haven't heard back. You know, whereas in older generations, there just wasn't that kind of vehicle of a potential closeness or potential rejection. And that also heats up all these dynamics.

• 42:27Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And that again, brings in this whole, you know, like, different generations have different expectations about the way we communicate, the mode of communication, the timing of communication. And what seems completely natural, I'm just crazy busy one week with, you know, like, on a deal, or on a job, or traveling, you know, to the other can seem like just a, a, an indefensible offense. You know, like, it, it's just, it, it couldn't possibly be anything but like, there's something awful happening here.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  Right, exactly. Well, the other thing that's, that's happened in the more, more recent past is that parents' expectation of closeness with their adult child has also escalated. Um, that, that parents raising children in the past, you know, three decades or so, say that they want to be best friends with their children over the life course. I mean, I don't think my parents, I'm a boomer, I don't think they particularly wanted, I mean, you know, they were nice people, but I don't think it was their aspiration to be, be my best Friend and it wasn't my aspiration that they would be, you know, in some, some perhaps many parents are very close to their adult children, even best friends with them. And it's nice work if you can get it. But the, the way that these expectations have escalated means that some adult children just feel like,

• 43:35Speaker 04

  you know, get your own life, you know, I don't want to be, I don't want to be your everything, particularly for divorced parents. You know, they feel like I, you know, you need to have other interests than me. And part of that is that in the past three decades or so, parents have given up on hobbies and, you know, outside activities and even friendships and it all got kind of sucked up into the nuclear family and redistributed to the children, which, you know, in some ways has been a net gain for children, but it makes parents have expectations, which aren't always in line with their adult children's needs. It can be a burden to the child. Every single letter from every single adult child I ever see says, you need to respect my boundaries. You know, I mean, there can be different things that they want to respect in terms of the boundaries.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  But I think part of it is just, you know, back off mom or dad. Give me some space. Give me some, some distance here. You're too much, you're, I'm too important. I'm more important to you than I want to be. And that's particularly true with the mothers and daughters that I see in my practice, where their daughters feel like way too responsible for mom's happiness and mental health and the like. And that can also be a cause of estrangement.

• 44:41Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So, so if I understand this and we as, as, as parents, we often have this almost like an instinct to defend. It often shows up in these five different ways. We just talked our, our way through. And, but taking any one of those stances, let alone piling them on top of each other, it, it isn't just unhelpful. It's that the, the specific thing that keeps the door shut, that the kid wants, because the kid is kind of testing what you'll do with their pain.

• 45:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:11Jonathan Fields?

  Is not debating the facts, is not trying to defend, but actually just. Dropping the shields and getting curious.

• 45:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, it seems sort of almost counterintuitive and it is human nature, particularly if you feel either wrongly accused by your child or their memories are different from yours. As a parent, it's human nature to want to defend, to want to explain, to want to prove them wrong. But it doesn't really work. It just makes the child feel unseen and unheard and ultimately uncared about. And the thing that works better than anything is interest and empathy and taking responsibility and being open and willing to to find the kernel, if not the bushel of truth in the child's complaints. And if you don't know what they are, to say, well, it's clear that I have blind spots as a person or as a parent that I don't have a better understanding of why you need to do this, but I really want to learn and I hope you'll let me know and I promise to

• 46:05Speaker 04

  listen and not not defend myself. So can we work on this together?

• 46:10Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Let's deepen a bit into what that actually looks like. You know, so we're moving out of the, there's a rift, there's an estrangement, there's a lot of pain on both sides. Maybe you spend a lot of time defending or fighting or going at each other and it's just, it's not working. And now you're saying, okay, you want to invite a different approach. You want to invite people, both sides, but probably starting with the parent to step into this in a very different way. What does that look like in a more granular way for them?

• 46:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, look, well, first of, I mean, if I'm just meeting with a parent, then it's a matter of taking a thorough history. I'll often want to see the correspondence between them and the adult child. Sometimes parents will say, well, I have no idea. And then if I see the correspondence, I'll feel like, well, it's actually right there in that last email to you.

• 46:58Speaker 04

  So I'm interested in how the parent communicates, but also how the adult child communicates.

• 47:04Speaker 04

  Just as a matter of kind of an analysis of the problem. And kind of ask, what are the, what is the adult child wanting from the parent? What are they wanting them to acknowledge? Is the parent capable of acknowledging it? If they disagree, are they capable of setting asides the way that they disagree for the time being and and just being? Interested or compassionate. So let's say, for example, the adult child says, well, I learned in therapy that you're a narcissist. You know, let's say the parent knows that they're not a narcissist. They're not going to get anywhere saying, look, I've been in therapy. Nobody's ever accused me of being a narcissist. You're full of crap or whatever. It's just not going to work. They're far better off saying, well, I wasn't, I haven't been diagnosed with that, but perhaps you're right.

• 47:49Speaker 04

  It's just something you'd like me to read. But more importantly, what are the behaviors in particular that you find difficult or challenging or problematic? Because there's accountability in that. And then, then you're, the parent's much better prepped to say, is that something we can work on together? Or since this is a blind spot, is it something you can tell me the next time it comes up? Again, it's all in the service of showing this kind of more 21st century form of engagement was, which is being willing to be self reflective, to take responsibility, to show empathy, et cetera. Cause nothing, nothing occurs without those ingredients.

• 48:24Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And, and again, as you're describing this, I have to imagine that some people joining us for this conversation, some parents who may be, it may be in the middle of a moment like this. Some of them will be like, okay, like I'm in enough pain now and there's enough suffering on both sides. I'm willing to actually try this. And others will be thinking to themselves, you're asking me to lie down, but I'm right.

• 48:49Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, and I've, and I hear versions of that in my, in my practice. And what I tell parents is it's about humility, not humiliation. And you can either be right or you can have your kid back in your life, but you, you can't have both. It's kind of similar to, to marriage, you know, in our romantic relationships, we can fight till the end of the, the day about trying to prove our spouses or partners wrong, but it doesn't really work. What works is empathy and responsibility taking,

• 49:18Speaker 04

  you know, and the like. So.

• 49:22Speaker 04

  But it's hard. I mean, it's nothing about about these methods that are easy. But what I find with parents, particularly parents who have made significant mistakes and who hasn't as a parent, it actually is therapeutic for them because what stays in the dark grows in the dark. You know, the more that we can kind of accept and acknowledge the ways that we are flawed. I mean, for example, I came to this work, Jonathan, because my daughter had cut off contact with me when she was younger. She's in her 40s now. Unfortunately, we reconciled. It had to do in many ways with my becoming remarried and her feeling like I chose my marriage over her in many ways and feeling in some ways abandoned by me. And, you know, when she went to talk to me about it in her 20s,

• 50:05Speaker 04

  I was very defensive and not kind of tried to explain it away and blame other people. And it really wasn't until I kind of learned how to do what I'm telling other parents to do, which is not, it's not remotely easy. But that's when things really, really began to shift for us and, you know, I think for the majority of parents that I work with.

• 50:24Jonathan Fields?

  Talk to me about the role, if any, in this process and sort of like the mending, the repair process of the apology.

• 50:34Jonathan Fields?

  You know, I would imagine that a lot of parents actually probably think, well, in some way, shape or form, I actually have apologized, maybe repeatedly.

• 50:43Jonathan Fields?

  But maybe like they actually haven't or it hasn't landed. Or maybe it's not actually the apology that the kid is waiting for.

• 50:50Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, I mean, I just want to emphasize that a parent could write the most perfect a man's letter and the adult child may still not open the door. So I don't want anybody out there listening to think, oh, if I only do it right, my kid will come back to me because there's so many reasons that an adult child may decide that they they aren't open, even if the parent does write, does write the best, the best letter. A good apology, particularly with between a parent and adult child, is in some ways harder than it might be with a friend. You know, with a friend, you could probably do an apology that maybe doesn't hit every note, but it's sort of the spirit that counts. Whereas for an adult child, they're kind of listening for every single word. So parents are often Say things like, well, maybe I wasn't a perfect parent.

• 51:34Speaker 04

  You know, I did the best that I could, or things were different back then, or they'll blame other people. Well, you know, your mother tried to alienate you from me, or we didn't have any money back then. Or I had to work two jobs, or they'll blame the kid. You had learning disabilities, or you had to go to rehab, or none of those things are going to work. The only thing that works is a heartfelt apology that acknowledges the parent's flaws. You know, I have close family that are in AA, and one of the things that I've learned through them is the fourth step, which is you make a searching and a fearless and searching moral inventory of your character flaws. And I think it's such an important sort of framework for parents because we all have flaws.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  And the more that we can kind of just say, yeah, I get that, that, you know, I was, I mean, in my own case with two of my three kids, they, you know, both my daughter and one of my twin sons has confronted me about being really impatient when I was raising them. I mean, you know, now that I'm an older dad, I'm not so impatient, but when I was raising them, I was. And it's, and it's true, I was, I was very impatient and irritable and reactive and, you know, and so for me to say, no, I wasn't, you're overly sensitive, that's not true, you're being unfair. I mean, it's just not, it's not a compelling response. It's far better to say, no, you're, you're right, that, that is one of my character flaws, and I'm really sorry for the ways that that, that impacted you. I mean, I'll sometimes tell parents, there has to be more blood on the tracks.

• 52:59Speaker 04

  You know, that's why you can't just say, if there's anything that I did that offended you or hurt you, I'm sorry. It's not really an apology. An apology really requires that the person see that you're really struggling with something that's difficult for you and that you're committed to, to some form of repair. And that, that for the adult child often means you're willing to do your own therapy, you know, or ideally do family therapy, but some kind of a statement of, of a desire for repair.

• 53:26Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and so it sounds like a statement of a desire for repair bundled with some version of. Um, I acknowledge that, um, that you're hurting, that

• 53:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 53:38Jonathan Fields?

  Something I've said or done, or the way that I've shown up has caused you pain.

• 53:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 53:43Jonathan Fields?

  And that's real and, and I, and I acknowledge that. And there's a way that I had been in our relationship that has been responsible for that. It's not saying, I'm so sorry you feel the way you feel.

• 53:54Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 53:54Jonathan Fields?

  Which is a disaster. I think we all kind of like know that at this point, but, but oftentimes it's kind of the way that we, it was like, no, like you're in pain. I acknowledge that it's real and there is something about the way that I interacted with you that caused that. And you're bringing it to my attention now. And in a way, thank you. Um, I really want, I want, I want to sit with this. I want to explore it. And if there's work to be done between us or just me individually, and maybe someday between us.

• 54:24Jonathan Fields?

  I'm raising my hand to say, yes, like I'm, I'm here to do it. And, and I hope that at some point that will help us come back together. Is that sort of like the general gist?

• 54:33Speaker 04

  No, that's beautiful. That's, that's, that's really, really well said to really speak to the pain and to speak to you as the creator of that pain, uh, and very, you know, very directly to acknowledge it. Yeah, I'm really sorry for, for, you know, the way that, um, you know, my anger, impatience, or divorce, or, um, abuse, whatever it is, impacted you. And I could see why that might have made you feel like taking distance from me was in your best interest. And I'm really committed to doing it better in the future, if you're open to, to giving me that, that chance. But, but I am really sorry. So no, I think, I think the way you summarized, that's exactly right.

• 55:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So this also brings up something. So if we are willing to not just say that in the name of repair, but own the fact that it just might be true.

• 55:23Speaker 04

  Right.

• 55:24Jonathan Fields?

  Right? We're not just saying it because we want to like heal the rift, but. Damn, maybe there is something that I need to actually work on. Self compassion has to really enter the equation there, right?

• 55:35Speaker 04

  For sure. I mean, you know, we all have blind spots, you know, as, as parents, as adult children, as spouses, whatever. So being able to have some serenity around that is so important because if you don't, if you can't acknowledge that what the person is seeing in you might not have a kernel or grain of, you know, grain or a bushel of truth to it, then the chances of repair are very, very low. So being able to go, yeah, I guess that, I, I mean, you know, again, to use my own example, like in my own experience, my impatience was like a level three of irritability, but you know, to hear my son, one of my twins and my daughter talk about it is more like a seven. I mean, they experienced it as

• 56:18Speaker 04

  abusive in a certain way. So I had to kind of go, yeah, look, I, I'm really aware that to me, I feel like I was just annoyed, but I get for you and your, whoever I'm talking to, your sibling. It, it felt like abuse and I'm really, I'm really sorry that that's on me as your dad to, to take responsibility for that.

• 56:36Jonathan Fields?

  I've heard you also speak about the weight of this often being born differently by moms versus dad, you know, that for moms specifically, there's this cultural thing where the very thing our culture calls being a quote, good mother can be the thing that keeps them trapped in sort of like this cycle of self blame. Untangle that for me a bit.

• 57:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, the research on sort of the way that men versus women respond to hurt or rejection or even fear, men are much more likely to externalize through, through being aggressive in response or angry or rejecting or compartmentalizing. Whereas women are much more likely to internalize through shame, depression, self criticism, et cetera. And so for mothers, they constantly feel like, well, there must be something else that I could do or should do. And that's why I'm at pains here to say, look, you may already be doing enough and it's important to acknowledge that and not, not keep trying. But but often what made somebody a good mother in the first place or conscientious mother, which is being really preoccupied with their child all the time and thinking

• 57:46Speaker 04

  about how to give them a good life, respond to their criticisms at some point has to be disabled if the adult child isn't responding. It looks like they're going to be estranged for a while. At that point, it isn't productive or adaptive for you as the mom to be constantly thinking about your child and what they need and what they want, or whether there's some other stone to turn over. I mean, what I tell parents is you that you only have two cards in your hand to play. One is a I mean, if your kid's not talking to you, one is to write a really good amends letter with all the features you and I've been talking about, and then to do a follow up six to eight weeks later, which is just kind of a check in, just writing to see if you had a chance to look over the letter. I'm sure there are things I left out that would have been good to have included, but I wanted to see if

• 58:28Speaker 04

  it was possible to get a conversation started. Hope you let me know. But after that, if the adult child doesn't respond, and they're not giving the parent other things to work on, I tell parents you should just stop trying for a year and then reach try again, you know, in a year, because your adult child just needs time to sit with it and digest it and feel like you're respecting their limits, and it may cause them to miss you more. And you might not be constantly triggering them. Sometimes just an amends letter can be triggering and upsetting to the child who really wants and needs distance. But all this is much harder for for mothers to do than dads, because it feels so unmaternal to the mother to just stop trying.

• 59:04Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And there's this cultural like overlay and men bag it. There's a weight to it, which is different.

• 59:10Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

• 59:12Jonathan Fields?

  Let's broaden this out a little bit. So everything that we talked about has really centered on parents and adult kids.

• 59:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:19Jonathan Fields?

  What about but estrangement isn't just limited to that. What about, you know, the siblings who are cut off from each other, or the trickle up effect of grandparents who are potentially shut out of their grandkids lives because of what's going on? How much of what we've been talking about here transfers to those dynamics? Like, what's the same and what's different?

• 59:40Speaker 04

  Well, the vast majority in terms of, I mean, estrangement, if an adult child cuts off a parent, even let's say you and I both agree that, yeah, they really needed to do that, it's still a cataclysmic event in the family system because typically grandchildren, even loving grandparents are going to get cut off from their grandchildren. Siblings not infrequently get divided in their loyalty. Some may be, remain in contact with the estranged sibling, others may say, screw that, you know, we don't like how you're treating mom and dad, an ally with them. Aunts and uncles may step in as parental figures. Young cousins who were once close to their other cousins, nieces and nephews, you know, may lose contact. So it's a hugely cataclysmic event. And, you know, I think the studies are something

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  like 20 to 25% of siblings are estranged in the, in the US or have an estrangement. And sibling estrangement is going to be more challenging because often, you know, in order to get the ship off the shoals that it's kind of stuck on, you know, one person, typically the parent, has to be willing to take the high road and show humility and be willing to take responsibility. But siblings often aren't willing to do that. They're like, no, screw them. They can come to me and apologize to me. I'm not coming to them. I'm not walking over the hot coals my parents are willing to walk over. So sibling estrangements can be much harder to, harder to resolve for that reason.

• 1:01:00Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. If somebody's listening to this or watching, joining us right now, and they are estranged from a sibling, and they would really love to have it resolved, what's sort of like the first step in for them?

• 1:01:16Speaker 04

  It's similar as to the parent. It's that, that you can't prove your sibling wrong if they've rejected you. You're going to have to find a way to empathize with why they've cut off contact with you or don't want to be close to you and take responsibility for that. You know, there's an interesting study that found that sometimes a sibling may feel like the parent's preferred one of the kids over the other. And even if objectively that's not true, that sibling who felt like the other sibling got more of the other parent, of the parent, that can have a long-term Negative effect on that that siblings mental health and it can have impact that relationship. So a brother might say to a sister, well, you know, mom and dad always loved you more than they loved me.

• 1:02:00Speaker 04

  And that sister might say, well, that's certainly not true, but it's not going to get anywhere unless the this, the, the sibling who wants the reconciliation can say, you know, acknowledge some version of that. Like, well, I didn't really see that, but it sounds like that was your experience and I'm really sorry. And I guess I could see how that could have felt like that or some, something that shows a willingness to

• 1:02:23Speaker 04

  to understand and empathize and show curiosity and interest in what the other person's saying. I mean, these principles in some ways seem so obvious, but they're actually so hard to do and to practice, right?

• 1:02:34Jonathan Fields?

  Right. Simple but hard.

• 1:02:36Speaker 04

  Simple but hard.

• 1:02:37Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Jonathan Fields?

  In, if we sort of like zoom the lens out,

• 1:02:44Jonathan Fields?

  looking at the full context of estrangement, like no matter where it lands in a family. I would imagine there are moments, there are circumstances where there is a rift, there is an estrangement. There is an attempt at repair, maybe somebody even, you know, like is doing all the things that you're suggesting to do and trying to avoid all the defensive moves that will only deepen the divide. They, they, they, they offer amends, they, they wait a year and then, you know, they, they do the check in.

• 1:03:17Jonathan Fields?

  And it seems like this is it. Is, is there a moment where it makes sense to say, I wish with every fiber of my being this were different and we could be back together. But I, you, you need to let it go.

• 1:03:34Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, absolutely. And then it's actually healthy to let it go. Once you've done the, the few steps you can do, because you can ruin your life by wishing it were otherwise. That's why radical acceptance is such a powerful pathway to mental health. You know, with radical acceptance, we're saying, it is what it is. I've written an amends letter, I'm willing to go to therapy, I'm willing to do, you know, family therapy or do whatever, respect whatever boundaries they put before. But if they're not willing to do that, there's nothing else that I can do. And I can't keep wishing it were otherwise because it's actually bad for me to do that. So in radical acceptance, there is a kind of a decrease in stress that comes from that.

• 1:04:15Speaker 04

  Because you're not sort of struggling to fight to wish that something were different than it actually is.

• 1:04:20Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm. Yeah. Again, easy to say.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  Yes, all these things are easy to say.

• 1:04:25Jonathan Fields?

  Very hard to do in practice.

• 1:04:28Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 1:04:29Jonathan Fields?

  Is there sort of a universal takeaway or reframe here that if you're experiencing some form of family estrangement, you're joining this conversation right now.

• 1:04:42Jonathan Fields?

  Is there a mindset shift? Is there sort of like a, not even the thing that you say or do, but is there something that, a switch that needs to be flipped to prepare you to step into this mode of repair? That would be helpful.

• 1:04:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think acknowledging that we all have our blind spots, that trying to prove somebody wrong or incorrect or faulty in their reasoning is never going to win them over. That simple empathy and understanding and responsibility taking are actually far more powerful as Asians who change them, they sort of seem. You know, we often feel like we need to do something really big and dramatic, but simply showing curiosity and interest, and more importantly empathy towards somebody's experience. And even better, taking responsibility for how we contributed to their experience. Those are really the most important factors that are true, whether it's a sibling estrangement or a parent estrangement or a friendship estrangement.

• 1:05:42Speaker 04

  I may just think that those are really the key, key principles that can heal a relationship.

• 1:05:48Jonathan Fields?

  Feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

• 1:05:58Speaker 04

  Oh, to live a good life, to have good friends, to have meaning, to have purpose, to care for other people. I think that those are really the key ingredients to a good life.

• 1:06:13Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm, thank you.

• 1:06:15Speaker 04

  Sure. Thanks for having me.

• 1:06:16Jonathan Fields?

  So let's talk about some of the big takeaways from this conversation. One thing I keep thinking about is how counterintuitive the whole path back actually is. You know, when someone we love pulls away, the instinct is oftentimes to defend ourselves, to explain, to maybe even prove them wrong, to say, this isn't fair, and it may not be. And Joshua is not saying those feelings are not real. They often are. But every one of those moves, he has seen it play out 100 times. And they tend to just really further close the door. What actually creates the opening is the opposite. Curiosity instead of defense, empathy instead of explanation, and an apology that puts more blood on the tracks, his phrase,

• 1:07:00Jonathan Fields?

  than most of us are comfortable with. Not apologizing for their feelings, acknowledging your specific role in their pain. He also drew a line I think it's important to hold on to. You can either be right, or you can have your kid back in your life, but you probably can't have both. That is not defeat. That's a choice about what you actually want. And for those in the middle of this right now, wherever the estrangement is, one foot in radical acceptance, one foot in hope, that's the place he keeps coming back to. It's not giving up. It's refusing to white knuckle your way through a situation that you cannot force your way out of. And hey, next week, I am going solo, actually for the entire week, for a two-part mid-year summer series about really taking a fresh look at where

• 1:07:45Jonathan Fields?

  we are right now. Be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss it. And do me a quick favor, just a seven second favor, share this episode with just one person who really needs it right now. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Troy Young. Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And if you've not already, please go ahead and follow us wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss a conversation. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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