Esther says "Run!"

Does loving him come with a price? After four months of dating, he’s asking her to cut ties with all of her exes. Is this a sign of love and commitment—or a red flag? In this episode, Esther unpacks the deeper dynamics at play: boundaries, control, trust, and the stories we tell ourselves about loyalty. Esther challenges the caller to consider what she may be giving up in the name of love—and what it might cost her in the long run. Topic: Dating & Romantic Consumerism Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  My boyfriend and I have been together for about four months. We come from very different backgrounds. He is Mexican and I am South African. I am living and working in Mexico. And although I believe jealousy is important in a relationship, it challenges a relationship in a healthy way. I have come to know that he is possessive. And this is a very big concern for me because we have our future planned. And we have had many arguments around this topic. And I think that this is going to be a recurring argument in our future.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  And I want to approach him about my concerns.

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• 2:14Esther Perel?

  If you have had many arguments already in the first four months, you have already approached him with your concerns.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Yes, and he has approached me with his, um, with regards to, well, I've approached him regards to, I think it's a trait of possessiveness. And he, he doesn't seem to believe so. He kind of does, like, I had to kind of Google it to show him, like, this is how I feel, you know, this is what possessiveness means to me, um, and what I see is happening. So, we have spoken since that recording. I don't think it's a hundred percent resolved because what he has asked of me is to delete ex-boyfriends that I have on my phone,

• 3:03Speaker 00

  that I have made friends with over the years since those relationships ended. And also to unfollow them on Instagram and

• 3:14Speaker 00

  it's been, it's been a difficult one for me because I have established a friendship with him. Not that we talk every day or stay in contact every day, but the fact that I have cultivated a friendship after the relationships, he doesn't seem to understand or like this idea and wants me to delete these people off my phone and not have contact with him at all. So yeah, this is the difficult part for me to kind of accept.

• 3:43Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, uh huh. Maybe before we plunge into the challenges, tell me a little bit about the relationship.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  Um, I'm a teacher and I'm at an English school here in Mexico, teaching Spanish students. I met him here at the school. We are the same age. Um, we have known each other for a little while, but we started talking more often about five months ago now. And we have a lot of respect for one another. We have a lot of love for one another. We get along really well. We laugh a lot. We share a lot. We've had our challenges, including this, this one. Um.

• 4:29Speaker 00

  And what to share, what else you would like to know, um, um.

• 4:34Esther Perel?

  What drew you to each other?

• 4:36Speaker 00

  What drew us to each other?

• 4:39Esther Perel?

  In what ways are you from very different cultures besides, I mean, I know the names of the cultures, but how are those differences manifesting for you? How do they draw you closer and how do they create surprise and how do they create conflict?

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 4:56Esther Perel?

  And how do you deal with those differences? Because

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:00Esther Perel?

  It's not in the difference itself, it's the emotional

• 5:05Esther Perel?

  resonance that these differences bring up, including what you call possessiveness, which he calls what? When you had to Google the term for him, you had different names for them. So what did he call this? Respect.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  Res- well, no, I don't know if it's respect. He, he sees it as wanting all of me. And he doesn't really want to accept my past. It hurts him, he says, my past hurts him, um, even though it's my past and I, you know, there's not much I can do to change it. And he thinks that because I've held on to the past, or that I have these contacts on my phone, that this is gonna be the, the end of our relationship one day. That one of these guys might swoop in and twist me away. This is his imagination and I don't see it like that, like I, I want to spend my life with him. I have chosen this with him. We have spoken about many things about our future and

• 6:05Speaker 00

  with regards to our cultures, coming from a very conservative sort of culture.

• 6:11Esther Perel?

  May I just ask, in, in what ways does your past hurt him?

• 6:19Esther Perel?

  And how do you understand that?

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Well, to put it maybe bluntly.

• 6:26Esther Perel?

  Yes, that's how you can be with me.

• 6:29Speaker 00

  Okay, I'll be bluntly then. Um, he wants to know my, my sexual past.

• 6:35Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, of course, that's the one we talk about.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  I'm quite open and honest with him about things that he asks me. I mean, I don't think I have anything to hide. And I had told him, you know, who was in my past, who were, you know, the men that were in my past and the sexual relationships that I've had. And he didn't like that it was a number higher than his.

• 6:58Esther Perel?

  What did that mean? What did that mean? That you had more sexual experiences or sexual partners than his meant what?

• 7:06Speaker 00

  I don't know if it's means that I had more experience than him. I think it's the fact that

• 7:14Speaker 00

  he feels like that I have given a lot of myself to other men as opposed to him. Which makes me feel really bad. It kind of makes me feel ashamed in some way, um, which I shouldn't be. Kind of that answers your question.

• 7:31Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, it doesn't answer it, but it's a beginning for us to think together about your situation. But you were beginning to say, I grew up in a conservative.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  Yes, a conservative country in South Africa. The biggest difference I'm seeing between the two cultures is that the Mexicans or the Latinos or Latinos, they love drama. They are very expressive and they're also very passionate people. As opposed to South Africans are a little bit more conservative. They kind of keep opinions to themselves. The challenges within our relationship is that because he's a Mexican man, he likes to be in control of certain things. He likes to be the provider. He likes to be the breadwinner. Um, this is very strong in his culture. Very masculine energy coming through. And I have, I'm a bit of a free spirit. So I'm an artist.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  So I think being controlled in some way is quite opposite of what I would like sometimes. Like, you know, I'm a bit more. Impulsive, where he's a little bit more um more objective and thinks things through. I don't know if that's a a man thing or a female thing or a Mexican thing. But we have recognized these two different things in our relationship as well. He does come from a military background, so he has that in him as well, where it's very, you know, straight forward, like um being in control and taking control of a situation in a difficult situation and thinking objectively and clear headedly and

• 9:09Speaker 00

  not getting emotions involved, where I'm the complete opposite of that. So, yeah, I I think it's cultural and also our backgrounds are different. I'm more of the artist and he is more of the a military guy.

• 9:24Esther Perel?

  And what draws you to him about that?

• 9:29Esther Perel?

  What's the parts of his rationality, control, organization, order?

• 9:38Speaker 00

  Um, I like that he is.

• 9:41Esther Perel?

  Provider.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  I actually like that he's a provider because I've always provided for myself. I've always kind of stood on my own two feet and kind of um gone through life on my own accord. So having someone sort of provide for me and wanting to take care of me is something I'm allowing and letting in and accepting and it feels quite good, to be honest, to kind of allow someone else to do that for me and not just not only rely on myself. But what draws me to him?

• 10:14Speaker 00

  I think it's probably my father was also in the military and they do have a certain poise. They have certain loyalty that they have. They are very um direct. Where maybe I'm a little bit up in the clouds, they can be a little bit more streamlined and a little bit more direct with certain things. And I kind of like that about him as well. And he has taught me some valuable lessons as well when it comes to certain aspects of life that I've never seen it in that light and he would kind of bring those things to light. And I'm like, okay, that's an interesting perspective, so.

• 10:48Esther Perel?

  Like what?

• 10:50Speaker 00

  Um. So when, when we have an argument, for me, what I generally do, um, I kind of, I have, you know, the fight or flight aspect. I have the flee. I want to flee. I want to get away. But he's one that would stand and, you know, just continue talking and try and work through it, even if we get angry, or even if we get upset with one another. The other day, when we had an argument, I was still very upset about something and he just gave me this hug and he just held me tight and he's like, "I'm angry, but it doesn't mean that I don't want to be here with you. I am holding you and I want to be here."

• 11:31Speaker 00

  So this, this is interesting for me because I don't, I normally just wanna run away and he's like, "Even if you are angry, you can still stay and still communicate and you don't have to run away. You don't have to feel like you need to get away from that." So that's, that's an example, a good example of what I mean.

• 11:54Esther Perel?

  And if I asked him, "What draws him to you?", since he likes clear structures and he likes to know he's the man, and it comes with certain ideas about what masculinity is.

• 12:10Esther Perel?

  And a woman that has had many other men makes him less of a man. And he may ask you to delete them on, on Instagram, but that doesn't mean you don't think about them and they don't live inside of you. And he may ask you if he's as good a lover as them.

• 12:28Esther Perel?

  Does he do that?

• 12:30Speaker 00

  Um, no, he hasn't asked in a specific way like that. Maybe he's thought about it, but no, he hasn't asked in that way.

• 12:40Esther Perel?

  But there's a part of him that thinks that a woman that's had as many men as you have, whatever the number is, it's irrelevant. More than him, that's what matters here. Basically, she did something wrong. That's why the shame is creeping up on you. What you thought was just a part of your lifestyle has now become something that cheapens you. Okay, so then what's the draw for him? Because you're gonna need to remember that, both of you. That the same things that are drawing you together at this moment are also gonna be from day one, because these things have appeared pretty much on day one. You're a very young couple.

• 13:23Esther Perel?

  So, this has been with you from the beginning. Some people say, your arguments, you will know them on day two. And from then on, they will accompany you through life. So, there's the parts of this that you will find he's principled, he's loyal, he stays put, he doesn't run away when it gets challenging. And that same set of attributes will then be seen as he's controlling, he's principled, and therefore he will continue to talk about it until he has made his point and have basically said, "You're right."

• 14:04Esther Perel?

  He will remind me of my checkered past, so to speak.

• 14:11Esther Perel?

  And he will make me constantly wonder if I am trespassing and crossing boundaries and acting inappropriately every time he feels insecure.

• 14:24Esther Perel?

  And there probably will be a little bit of both, sometimes, and sometimes not. But all of this I know from the start.

• 14:34Esther Perel?

  So what's his draw? Because I would say the same thing to him if he was here, and I would say, "Remember this, because everything you're putting down is part of what has also drawn you to her."

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Um, I think what has drawn him to me is, um...

• 14:55Speaker 00

  It's probably my outer beauty first. From the stories that he told me, like, you know, coming to the school and hoping to see me and to have some sort of interaction with me. I don't know, he, he says that he is just, it feels like infatuation as well, um, that he has had for me. But now it's become a little bit more than that, getting to know me more. He's drawn to my outer beauty, he is now drawn to my inner beauty. He, he wrote me a love letter and said, said things like, he loves the way I, I flavor food. He says he loves how I paint and how I'm an artist.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Oh, there's so many things he said. He loves to watch my eyes, um, he loves to look at them. He loves my hair and my ears. He loves the way I see the world and how I view the world in, in my own lens. And that he always, that he's always looking forward to seeing me. It was really a special love letter, to be honest, um. So yeah, there's, there's a lot that he sees in me.

• 16:16Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 16:31Speaker 02

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• 18:00Esther Perel?

  Your question is, what to do with what I see? Your question is, can I live with this?

• 18:11Esther Perel?

  Your question is what?

• 18:14Esther Perel?

  Because you're not going to change him.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  No, exactly as that. And I don't want to change him either, you know, I don't. That's something that I am looking for is to change him. But I want him to be able to, to trust me and know that I am in this 100% planning our future together. Me having now decided to continue living in Mexico and also when he's pursuing his dream and working around the world, that I will be joining him, you know, it's, it's, I have made this very big decision not to live back in South Africa, but to be with him. But at the same time, he is unsure about our future.

• 19:00Speaker 00

  He's unsure because of my past.

• 19:03Esther Perel?

  He is unsure of your future because of your past? Please tell me more.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  Because of my relationships with, with men in the past, because I've had more sexual relationships than him.

• 19:20Esther Perel?

  And that means what to him?

• 19:23Esther Perel?

  What are we saying exactly? Be, gonna go back to the word you used before, be blunt.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  He thinks that I will be disloyal to him, that I would cheat on him, basically. Um, he thinks this, he thinks that if I stay in contact with these ex-boyfriends, that there will be some communication and then one day I will leave him and go to someone else or I will cheat on him. And this is just so far from the truth.

• 20:01Esther Perel?

  Has that happened?

• 20:02Speaker 00

  No.

• 20:03Esther Perel?

  To you in other relationships?

• 20:06Speaker 00

  No, it hasn't. I've, I've lived many lives. I've had many different um occupations, but I'm, I want to change that. I want a different future. I want to have a partner, a life partner and.

• 20:21Esther Perel?

  But does he have ground to think? I mean, is there a history of cheating or betrayal or disloyalty? Or is there a history of a woman who's been free spirited and who has lived many lives, but each of them with integrity?

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. No, no, um, there hasn't been any of, well, the, there has been integrity in my past. I haven't cheated on anyone.

• 20:49Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  I've also made it clear that if there are problems within our relationship, I would rather talk about it as opposed to trying to find it with another man or I just, I don't, I don't think that's true to who I am. I'd rather try and sort it out. And if it can't be sorted out, if we do have to split up, it would be with regards to between him and I. It wouldn't be because of external people.

• 21:19Esther Perel?

  And does he think that the problem is your past? Or does he also ask himself whether what has now been defined as the problem of your past may lie with him as well? Or is it just you?

• 21:37Speaker 00

  I think with him as well, there, there is another aspect to our relationship that I haven't mentioned that might be important.

• 21:46Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  It probably is important.

• 21:48Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 21:49Speaker 00

  But um it is a decision that I've made, um we have spoken many times about it, so it's not, it's not. Okay, let me just say it what it is, um he um, he is married and he has a child. But their agreements before they got married was that they can both find partners without outside the marriage. It was more a marriage of convenience or financial.

• 22:18Esther Perel?

  So now the plot thickens.

• 22:20Speaker 00

  Yes, it definitely does.

• 22:22Esther Perel?

  All right, we've.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Um.

• 22:24Esther Perel?

  We've spent uh too much time without knowing this, so tell me, how does this enter your relationship?

• 22:31Speaker 00

  Sorry, I I wasn't sure if I wanted to bring that up or not, um but maybe it is important, um. Yes, he is married, um and he has a one year old. They entered the the marriage um out of convenience, out of financial convenience and not out of. Being together out of like love or I guess there's love and respect between the two of them, but they're not. They won't be spending their future together, basically, um he's there to financially support them. Him and his mother-in-law and brother-in-law, and when I say support, I mean financially.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  So this is what he's brought in to the relationship. I have known about this from the start. So it's not something that he has hid from me. We have spoken about this many times. His wife knows about me, um. Yeah.

• 23:32Esther Perel?

  And the other people, do they all know about you?

• 23:37Speaker 00

  His wife does, yes. Um, his mother-in-law has an inkling about it. She doesn't know a hundred percent, but she has some, some idea that there is someone else. Um, and the brother-in-law, I don't think so.

• 23:52Esther Perel?

  And his wife understands that you are what, who?

• 23:59Speaker 00

  Um, that we are in a serious relationship. She does know my name, where I work, um. And we haven't met, but she does know of me.

• 24:11Esther Perel?

  And how does this shape your relationship?

• 24:16Speaker 00

  In many ways, in many ways. We do want a future together, him and I. Um, we are planning our future together. He would like to have more children and have those children with me as well. But divorce with his wife is out of the question. And I think why it's so difficult for me to, coming back to the initial problem, the, you know, deleting my ex-boyfriends off my phone is that.

• 24:43Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, yes. Now, say it first.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Yes, he, he will have a connection with his wife forever. Um, but I, I can't have a number on my phone with an ex-boyfriend.

• 24:59Esther Perel?

  And what do you think about all of that?

• 25:01Speaker 00

  Uh, this, this is where I have had difficulty with this, and this is why we have had many arguments about it. Because I, I keep bringing this up, I'm like, you still have a wife, but I can't have any ex-boyfriends on my phone. But you have, you can keep in contact with her every day. He can get to see his daughter whenever he wants. And rightfully so, I mean, they, it's his daughter, I wouldn't, wouldn't want him to, you know, to not have a relationship with her. But it has been difficult because he is still connected to his wife in a big way, um. And this is why I've had a problem deleting these numbers, to be honest.

• 25:42Esther Perel?

  Well, you're being very moderate.

• 25:49Esther Perel?

  I mean, there is a whole lot of family.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:55Esther Perel?

  There is people who don't know about you, or they kind of know you exist, but, you know. There is basically a ceiling above you because, I don't know if marriage matters to you or not, but there will never be such a thing.

• 26:09Esther Perel?

  There is a profound asymmetry.

• 26:16Esther Perel?

  A profound asymmetry.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:20Esther Perel?

  I need, I have, you should.

• 26:24Esther Perel?

  And you've been arguing since the beginning. No sooner has he met you that he's already putting his conditions.

• 26:34Speaker 00

  The big word, conditions.

• 26:36Esther Perel?

  Okay, I'm sorry. I understand the caretaking. And I'm sure if he can take care of his mother-in-law, his brother-in-law, who will be dependent on him forever, and his wife, that, you know, that there's a lure for you, or finally, someone who takes care of me. I've had to do it all by myself. I'm so tired of being on my own. Here's a real guy who's gonna show up. But the conditions.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, sir. The conditions.

• 27:07Esther Perel?

  I'm sorry. I'm really, I, I,

• 27:12Esther Perel?

  I can see the beautiful love letter.

• 27:16Esther Perel?

  The hair, the eyes, the lure and the whole thing.

• 27:20Esther Perel?

  But this is not just a love story you're aiming for. You're choosing a life story.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, we are, we're looking for an apartment to live in.

• 27:32Esther Perel?

  Doesn't matter. The conditions won't change.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Can we clarify the conditions, please? The conditions as in he would get divorced and?

• 27:43Esther Perel?

  Well, the conditions start with, you need to tailor yourself to what I think is palatable. You need to make sure that I don't have to feel any insecurity on the risk that you could have an affair on me while I just had one on my own wife.

• 28:03Esther Perel?

  However, we call it not, you know, baby is a year old. So it's not like they're... The convenience came when exactly?

• 28:14Esther Perel?

  You met him when the baby was six, seven months old. So it's like, something doesn't click, you know?

• 28:24Esther Perel?

  You should make sure that I cannot ever think you can betray me in any way whatsoever. You are too much of a free woman for me. But I am having an affair on my wife, to whom I've told what exactly? I will forever be there for you, I will take care of you. I'm just gonna go and have my romantic love somewhere else, and I'm gonna install the oldest system of wife and mistress.

• 28:58Esther Perel?

  I'll have kids with both, and I'll take care of both families. As long as you know what you're doing.

• 29:07Speaker 00

  I have, I have known what I've been doing.

• 29:10Esther Perel?

  You understand? I mean, this comes, this is an old system. You're not, you're not creating something new or or original. This is the old system, and you will feel taken care of with conditions.

• 29:27Esther Perel?

  Beholden and responsible for him to not have to necessarily take responsibility for what, for his part in these stories. So that he is the upstanding citizen and you're the slut?

• 29:52Esther Perel?

  So you tell me, what is drawing you to this? Because who came before? What are the hurts you carry that you are allowing this to become the box you wanna live in?

• 30:09Esther Perel?

  I'm being really blunt as well. Because we have one hour together and you're not gonna make this guy less jealous or less possessive or less controlling or less suffocating. There's a lot of big words after four months.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:28Esther Perel?

  What are you doing?

• 30:31Esther Perel?

  What are you bringing with you? That you are willing to forego? Your better sense? Your home, your roots, your past, your story? To enter into which quagmire?

• 30:51Speaker 00

  I have asked myself this question too.

• 30:54Esther Perel?

  Okay. I hope you're not hearing me disrespectfully. I'm saying this with utter respect, but you seem to have had some life experience and you're walking into an absolute mess.

• 31:10Speaker 00

  I don't know, sometimes he makes it sound so easy.

• 31:16Speaker 00

  You know, just making everything sort of black and white, like

• 31:22Speaker 00

  we are planning our future together. We will live in a different state, in a different country, as opposed to his wife and daughter. I have had many questions that I would ask him and he would always have an answer. So the surety always seems to be there. So I find myself, you know, just accepting or like, you know, kind of agreeing or like, okay. You know, there have been other things that have come up and that I would ask him about and he is more than willing to talk it out and to speak about it. And I have my concerns.

• 32:00Esther Perel?

  Like what, if I may ask?

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Well, you know, if we do live in a different state because he is aiming to be a pilot, commercial pilot, so we would live in different states. But if he doesn't see his daughter, how would we plan around that? How would you get to see your daughter as well as, you know, your own kids with me? If we had to do that and you're flying for many days at a time or many hours?

• 32:32Speaker 00

  How do you juggle everything? How do you juggle two families that you have?

• 32:39Esther Perel?

  And how does he respond?

• 32:43Speaker 00

  You know, it's interesting. He brings up loyalty quite often. He's like, he says he's loyal to his family.

• 32:49Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:50Speaker 00

  And he is showing loyalty to me by doing this, um.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  By, you know, like if he comes back home, then he would buy a flight ticket for his wife and his daughter to come visit. Or he would go to the state that they live in and and I'm like, we haven't even met, um, I haven't even met his wife.

• 33:12Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:13Speaker 00

  And there's a lot of unanswered questions. A lot of questions have come up, a lot of questions have been asked. But it's still very unsure because we we really haven't found ourselves in in those situations. So there's a lot of hearsay.

• 33:30Esther Perel?

  And he answers you in ways that put you to sleep. They lull you.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  Can you say more, please?

• 33:40Esther Perel?

  It's it's false reassurances.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 33:43Esther Perel?

  On stuff he has no idea about. With principles, I'm loyal, I'm this, I'm.

• 33:51Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 33:52Esther Perel?

  We'll figure it out.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 33:56Esther Perel?

  Every problem has a solution.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah, there's no a hundred percent surety.

• 34:04Esther Perel?

  But I'm actually. I'm really asking you, because I don't know anything about you or your past or what you bring or. Who have been the relationships before or who's the family that is left in South Africa. But there's something. As you said, when we have an argument, my tendency is to run away. And you are as far from South Africa as can be. So you are a runaway. You are running away and you are entering somebody else's life story.

• 34:37Esther Perel?

  Jumping in with two feet, abdicating your own story, your own life. And I would love to know a little bit more about that because there is a feeling when you tell this story of I am running away from my own, entering someone else's, a little bit scared about what lies there, but he just says, it'll be okay. I'll take care of you. I love the spices you put in the food.

• 35:08Esther Perel?

  And I am allowing myself to be totally transported and I become a little girl so eager to be taken care of that I am not seeing anything.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  I think I have said quite a bit. That it always comes back to the same, the same thing. Like you say, I may be lulled. Even though I am seeing things, I am raising concerns.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free,

• 35:50Speaker 02

  click the try free button to subscribe to Astera's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

• 36:00Speaker 02

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• 36:29Speaker 04

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• 36:57Speaker 02

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• 37:30Speaker 00

  Well, my background, my mother and I have had a difficult relationship since I was a child. My father and I are quite close, but I know he wasn't around much when I was a kid.

• 37:44Esther Perel?

  He's a pilot too?

• 37:45Speaker 00

  No, my father is engineer.

• 37:47Esther Perel?

  Figuratively.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  Well, he lives in Vietnam, so yeah.

• 37:54Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 37:56Esther Perel?

  Meaning he was also gone.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, he was.

• 38:02Esther Perel?

  So he was the pilot.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  I've had an interesting background, Afrikaans family, but went to an English school. So I have a different set of cultures within me internally and externally with, you know, friends and family. I have worked as a graphic designer and I have traveled the world on a cruise ship, working on a cruise ship, and now I'm in Mexico teaching English.

• 38:33Esther Perel?

  How old are you, if I may ask?

• 38:36Speaker 00

  I'm thirty-eight.

• 38:40Esther Perel?

  And you're a little bit tired of being unmold?

• 38:45Speaker 00

  Uh huh. I know what I want for my future, but I'm also tired of being alone and not having a partner, doing it on my own.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  I want to have bold memories with someone and I can see that with him, but yes, unfortunately, this is very heavy. Heavy topic is. Is always there.

• 39:15Speaker 00

  I think I'm very patient.

• 39:18Esther Perel?

  With him and his mother-in-law and his brother-in-law and his wife, who will forever be his wife. And his daughter.

• 39:29Esther Perel?

  You think you're gonna be less alone?

• 39:33Speaker 00

  And him flying?

• 39:35Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, of course, I forgot, I forgot the big piece. Maybe you should all gather together, all of you.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  And this, this is what I would love, Esther, like, I would love to meet them and kind of, you know, make myself seen and.

• 39:50Esther Perel?

  Why is he taking care of all these people? Do we know that?

• 39:54Speaker 00

  His wife lost her father a couple of years ago and. He has always looked out for her and.

• 40:04Esther Perel?

  She depends on him?

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes, she does.

• 40:08Esther Perel?

  So he doesn't have to worry of the possibilities of her predatoriness?

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, I think so. I mean, they both, they both can. Have a relationship outside their marriage, but from what it sounds like. Um, she is not interested because I think that her daughter is a priority. But I often wonder, like, what would happen if she does find someone? How would he feel about that? She seems to be okay with me. She seems to be.

• 40:41Esther Perel?

  Says he?

• 40:43Speaker 00

  Hmm, says he, yeah.

• 40:44Esther Perel?

  Says he, everything you know is says he.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  I just have to trust what he says.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, this, this comes back to the initial thing, like, I don't know how I can delete people from my life when. Someone in his life is, will always be there.

• 41:08Esther Perel?

  Um, if I may.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:12Esther Perel?

  If these people have really become your friends. And they are your circle. And some of them at least are part of your support system. Wherever they are strewn across the globe. Regardless of his being married or not.

• 41:29Esther Perel?

  Meeting someone, you're gonna hear my bias now. And within X amount of weeks,

• 41:37Esther Perel?

  asking them to basically cut off, it's not delete, it's cut off contact with the people of your life

• 41:49Esther Perel?

  is a bold ask.

• 41:53Esther Perel?

  And one that I'm not sure I would suggest you trust. On what basis?

• 42:02Speaker 00

  He feels threatened.

• 42:04Esther Perel?

  Well.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  I suppose.

• 42:07Esther Perel?

  That may be a feeling he has to address. But to ask that from someone you just met, and he probably asked it to you after a few weeks.

• 42:21Esther Perel?

  "I like you, but I need you to rearrange the pieces a little bit. Do some editing for me. Take away some of the parts that make me uncomfortable." And, I mean, I'm curious about his request, but I'm particularly curious about your willingness to even consider it.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  Well, up until,

• 42:41Speaker 00

  like recently, I have refused.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  I have kind of pushed back and said, "No, that's not something I would do." But then, of course, it would be a recurring thing and a recurring problem that would come up.

• 42:55Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but you know what? If you do it, that will leave you very much in a vulnerable and threatened position.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's how I feel too, I suppose.

• 43:07Esther Perel?

  Okay, so I think I've answered your question.

• 43:15Esther Perel?

  I mean, I didn't answer your question the way you asked it to me, but I think I'm

• 43:22Esther Perel?

  being quite transparent about how I'm registering the choice you're about to make.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  No, I hear you, Esther.

• 43:32Esther Perel?

  And I know that you may come home tonight and he will give you the lulling reassurances again, which your heart is aching to hear. Your heart doesn't want to hear what I'm saying.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you, Esther.

• 43:50Esther Perel?

  I understand, but you'll have to, if you want to follow that, that's your choice too, but you will have to remember what you are willing to accept and to do and how could you?

• 44:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:09Speaker 00

  I still, yeah, I still haven't deleted these numbers because I feel that once I do, I will be in a very vulnerable situation.

• 44:17Esther Perel?

  Of course, he will isolate you from the rest of the world. He will make you dependent on him too.

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 44:24Esther Perel?

  And I would say to you, you didn't run away from South Africa and travel the globe to create yourself another cage.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a very good point.

• 44:35Esther Perel?

  I understand that you say, "I don't want to do it alone anymore. I want someone by my s-" I, I, I have complete, complete empathy for that. But this is not the same.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't think so either. Why do we like people that? Because I do like him.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  There is a lot about him that I like.

• 45:04Esther Perel?

  You can like people, you can love people, that doesn't mean you need to make a life with people. There are plenty of people we love, but we should not be partnered with them.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 45:16Esther Perel?

  Because at first, when someone says, "I want you to delete the people that you slept with so that I can feel like I'm less number 10 and I can feel more manly and I don't have to feel like you're used goods." And we interpret that as love. "He must love me so much that he wants me just for himself." "I'm so moved by his vulnerability, by how hurt he would be to know that I have loved and made love to other men before him who may, for that matter, be better lovers than him too on occasion." And we interpret that as an expression of love.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  I think that's true. I don't know if that's true for me. I found it quite shocking when he first asked me. He expected it of me first and then

• 46:06Speaker 00

  he had to ask me and I still refused and so, yes, I don't think it is a sign of love.

• 46:12Esther Perel?

  The fact that he doesn't think there's anything problematic with the request is a big red light.

• 46:20Esther Perel?

  It's preposterous.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:23Esther Perel?

  But it's traditional. It belongs to a system. It's a system in which control provides care.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  Does control always provide care?

• 46:36Esther Perel?

  No, no. No, the idea is I will control and in return I will provide and in return you will stay put.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Do you believe that love has a price?

• 46:53Esther Perel?

  In what sense?

• 46:57Esther Perel?

  That's a big question. What's the, in what way? No, meaning that you, that that's the price to pay for being with him? No, no, I don't.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, but also the family, you know, like to continue with this relationship, there's a lot of condition, but it's a big price that.

• 47:14Esther Perel?

  I think you're entering a quagmire

• 47:17Esther Perel?

  with someone who is telling you, you know, I have the wife that I told that we can be with other partners, but I am the only one who will be with another partner because I know for a fact that she wants the baby and so. I mean, you're being told stories, one story after another,

• 47:37Esther Perel?

  of which you have no way of knowing what's behind and who's behind.

• 47:44Esther Perel?

  You have a cast of characters of four people that you're about to live with for decades to come and you have no idea who they are.

• 47:54Esther Perel?

  Would you do that with anything else?

• 47:59Esther Perel?

  It's like, what are you doing?

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Yes, I said, what am I doing?

• 48:05Esther Perel?

  I'm sure there's plenty to like about him and plenty to love about him, but you're not a twenty-two-year-old woman either.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  I should know better, right?

• 48:17Esther Perel?

  I mean, if the price of love, as you call it, is to be controlled,

• 48:24Esther Perel?

  is to live under conditions, is to be lulled and is to be presented with an entire, you know, fait accompli, that's the decision you make.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:37Esther Perel?

  Yeah, I don't often make statements like the ones I just made. I am, and I may be off. Um, but I'm also

• 48:53Esther Perel?

  following my intuition and my decades of experience. I mean, I'm often asked, do you ever tell someone not to or to leave or to not continue? And this is one of those times when I'm listening to this and I'm just the free bird who traveled the globe to do what she wants because she's tired of being told and who had to run as far from mom as can be to then find herself willingly entering a cage?

• 49:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  I feel like a bird in a cage.

• 49:27Esther Perel?

  That's when I'm saying, what is happening? I mean, I know what is happening. I'm tired of being alone and he's there and he's, he shows up in beautiful ways and all of that.

• 49:41Esther Perel?

  But I would not move on to the next phase without having some clarity over who are the other birds in the cage?

• 49:53Esther Perel?

  As you say, I have to delete and cut off from people who are essential pillars of my life?

• 50:00Esther Perel?

  To live with someone who has an entire family that I have no idea who, what, when? Excuse me?

• 50:07Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. It is a bold ask.

• 50:11Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 50:13Esther Perel?

  How does this land on you?

• 50:17Speaker 00

  It's landed.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  It has landed as the, um, it, it's interesting because I haven't been able to speak about this to anyone because of the situation that I'm in. So it's nice to have a voice of reason and someone I can sort of project on and.

• 50:38Esther Perel?

  And you haven't been able to talk about it because what?

• 50:43Speaker 00

  I don't think anyone would really understand.

• 50:45Esther Perel?

  They would judge you.

• 50:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, probably.

• 50:48Esther Perel?

  Hmm. So this, now we have shame not just about your past, but you have shame about your present?

• 50:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:56Esther Perel?

  Oh, no, do not.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  No.

• 51:00Esther Perel?

  Please.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes, I said, I hear you.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. So it's landed, what you've said. Thank you.

• 51:09Esther Perel?

  Thank you for trusting me. Good luck to you.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Thank you very much.

• 51:14Esther Perel?

  Bye.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a forty or fifty minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin

• 52:08Speaker 02

  are Astaire Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy terms and conditions.

• 52:50Speaker 04

  As wish lists grow, you know where to go. Head to Ulta Beauty. We have gifts they'll love from brands like Tato One and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. Shop beauty faves to give or keep from Shark Beauty, Sol de Janeiro and more. Not sure what they want? You can't go wrong with Baumann, Clinique or Redken. And don't forget to put yourself on the list. Book a salon moment or add a little more sparkle to your season. Shop holiday in store or at Ulta.com. Ulta Beauty.