#150 Rick Ross - Inside the Dark World of Cults

Rick Alan Ross is a leading expert on cults, authoritarian groups, and coercive persuasion. As the founder of the Cult Education Institute, he has provided resources and guidance to help individuals and families understand and recover from high-control groups. Ross has worked on over 500 deprogramming cases worldwide and frequently appears as an expert commentator on major media outlets. He is the author of Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out, a detailed guide to understanding and escaping cults. Known for his insightful analysis, Ross has advised law enforcement, governments, and organizations globally. Despite facing legal challenges from groups he critiques, he remains committed to educating the public and promoting critical thinking to combat manipulation. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://babbel.com/srs https://moinkbox.com/srs https://bubsnaturals.com/shawn https://blackbuffalo.com https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Rick Ross Links: Website - https://culteducation.com Cults Inside Out Book - https://cultsinsideout.com X - https://x.com/RickAlanRoss Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/culteducation YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@TheCultEducationInstitute Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:32Speaker 01

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• 0:55Shawn Ryan?

  Rick Ross, welcome to the show.

• 0:58Speaker 03

  Nice to be here, Sean.

• 0:59Shawn Ryan?

  It's a pleasure to have you.

• 1:01Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:01Shawn Ryan?

  So I've been looking into, taking a peek into secret societies and cults and kind of stuff like this. And you came across our radar and it sounds like you are the expert in cults and kind of deprogramming people out of these things. And I'm just really fascinated in the subject and this is the first interview that I'm diving into the subject and I'm just really happy you're here. I'm excited about this one.

• 1:32Speaker 03

  It's a heck of a subject.

• 1:35Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm going to kick it off with an introduction.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:40Shawn Ryan?

  So Rick Allen Ross, you are globally recognized, you are a globally recognized expert on the inner workings of destructive cults, controversial groups, as well as subversive movements. You've been qualified, accepted, and testified as a court expert in 13 states, including the United States Federal Court. Since 1982, you've been studying, researching, and responding to problems often posed by controversial authoritarian groups and movements. You've intervened in more than 500 deprogramming cases in various countries.

• 2:19Shawn Ryan?

  You were the only deprogrammer to work with members of the Branch Davidsons prior to the Waco Siege. You've been called upon as an expert resource by law enforcement, including the BATF, FBI, and United States Justice Department. You also have been a guest lecturer at many universities, including Penn, Carnegie Mellon, and the University of Chicago. You are the executive director of the Cult Education Institute, author of the book Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out.

• 3:00Shawn Ryan?

  Your reputation has led you to becoming a paid consultant for CBS, CBC, and Nippon of Japan Television Networks, as well as retained a technical consultant for both Miramax and Disney Film Studios. GQ Magazine identified you as America's leading cult expert, and Britain's FHM Magazine named you America's number-one cult buster. You previously worked as an expert consultant for Ubisoft in the creation of the very popular video game Far Cry 5. Quite the intro.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 3:37Shawn Ryan?

  Very interesting career. I am curious, what got you so interested in cults?

• 3:48Speaker 03

  You know, my grandmother was really like my best friend. And when she was 82, and she was living in a nursing home, a bizarre, kind of radical religious group infiltrated the paid staff of the nursing home to target the elderly. And my grandmother was confronted. And she told me about it. She was very upset that this woman who was a paid aide on the staff had tried to recruit her into this religious organization. And I became an activist. I became an anti-cult activist, community organizer back in the early 80s.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  And it grew out of my concern that groups were targeting the elderly. And then I would later find out targeting prisoners, literally a captive audience, and also going after minor children without parental notification or consent.

• 4:48Speaker 03

  So what began for me as a personal interest because of my grandmother grew into a life's work. And here I am forty some years later. But it all started with my grandmother.

• 5:02Shawn Ryan?

  What was the, what was the, what was the cult that was after your grandmother?

• 5:08Speaker 03

  It was a fringe group that targeted Jews. My grandmother lived in a Jewish nursing home, and this group felt that it was their mission to convert Jews to their group, which they identified as supposedly Hebrew Christians. But in fact, the leader was an ordained Pentecostal minister, and the group was called the Jewish Voice Broadcast. I think they still exist, though under different leaders. At the time my grandmother was confronted, the leader was a man by the name of Louis Kaplan, who had been raised as a Jew, but had converted

• 5:51Speaker 03

  to Pentecostalism, and he felt that it was his mission to convert other Jews. And you know, I have no problem, Sean, with people preaching what they believe. I may not agree with it, that's, that's fine. My issue is, do not covertly enter into a nursing home staff with a hidden agenda. If you want to share your faith with people in the nursing home, come in the front door and say, hey, I'm gonna do a Bible study. Would you post this on your bulletin board? And maybe some of your residents would like to participate?

• 6:31Speaker 03

  That I have no problem with. What I have a problem with is deceptive, you know, covert type of activities, like the one that I dealt with, with my grandmother.

• 6:43Shawn Ryan?

  It's sneaky.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  It's very sneaky.

• 6:45Shawn Ryan?

  It's sneaky. And we'll get into that. A couple of things we gotta, I have to knock out before we get too into the weeds, and I can't wait to do that. But I have a subscription account on Patreon. They are our top supporters, always have been, and they're the reason I get to do this, and that you get to be here as well. And so I, I offer them the opportunity to ask each guest a question. And so-

• 7:15Shawn Ryan?

  This one came in from Brandon White and he wants to know, "How can individuals protect themselves and their loved ones from falling victim to these groups?" We're gonna get into that a little bit later. So, I'm gonna change the question just a little bit, because we are gonna cover this. What are a few things that, what are just a couple of, of quick identifiers for somebody who might think that they would be, they're being recruited by a cult? What are some, some quick identifiers?

• 7:48Speaker 03

  Well, if you get involved with a group and the group is obsessed with a leader, and that leader has no accountability, and that leader seems to be an object of worship, that would be a red flag. Another red flag would be, is this group, uh, do, do they encourage, encourage people to become socially isolated? That is, when you become involved with a group, they're kind of dissing your old friends and your family, and they're encouraging you to make your life totally within this new social environment. Uh, that type of environment control, that type of social isolation would be another warning sign.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  And is the, is the leader open to criticism? Uh, is the group open to criticism? Or do they characterize it in some negative way and dismiss it? And, you know, basically denigrate anyone that questions them? Because typically, a group will have accountability for its leadership. Uh, that may be democratic governance, financial transparency, and groups can, uh, you can be involved in an organization and still be very active with your family, your old friends. People that become cut off and isolated because of a group,

• 9:14Speaker 03

  that is a really, uh, big warning, warning flag. That something is a- Something's amiss.

• 9:20Shawn Ryan?

  How early does that kinda happen? Does that happen early on, or is that they ease people into it?

• 9:26Speaker 03

  I would say that they ease people into it, and that's what I think people don't recognize, is that it's indoctrination incrementally. It's a slow drip, and you get involved. But I would say if your family starts to question, and your old friends start to question what you're involved with, depending on their closeness to you and their concerns, that could be something that the group will become very concerned about very early on. Because what they want, these groups, is they want you to not have feedback from people outside of the group's control.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  What they want is for you to be embedded within this environment that they control, where the only feedback you hear is reinforcement from other group members and the leader. So when your family begins to question the group, and old friends begin to ask critical questions, and the group responds by saying, "Well, you need to really kind of cut them off." That is very much an early warning sign that could be a kind of tripwire to notify you, "This is a problem. This group is a problem."

• 10:47Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. Next thing, everybody that comes on the show gets a gift.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 10:58Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. I don't know, have you got any guesses?

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Well...

• 11:06Speaker 03

  Oh, gummy bears.

• 11:07Shawn Ryan?

  Those are Vigilance League gummy bears.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  All right.

• 11:09Shawn Ryan?

  Made right here in the USA, legal in all 50 states, fortunately, or maybe unfortunately for you, I don't know. But, um, yeah, let's get on with it. So, I have one of the...

• 11:26Shawn Ryan?

  One of the gentlemen on my team, he actually edits all of our, all of the episodes, all the show stuff, is, grew up in the Jehovah Witness community. And he is, what he likes to say, escaped that community. He calls it a cult. And, you know, some of the stuff that he has to say about what he's been through, and kind of our discussion on the way here, from your hotel, I was telling you, you know, his family has totally abandoned him. He doesn't talk to, it's just, there's so many things that are fascinating to me about

• 12:11Shawn Ryan?

  what they go through. And you had kind of mentioned that they have kind of moved away from the, from the cult, I don't know, what, what, what, from the cult. It sounds like they're not as much of a cult as they used to be. Am I correct?

• 12:29Speaker 03

  Sean, look, the Jehovah's Witnesses have been around for over 100 years. So what you see with some groups that be, that began as cults, which in my opinion, Jehovah's Witnesses began as a personality cult. They were led by Charles Taze Russell, who devised their, you know, their belief system. And he was an absolute totalitarian leader. And he was the defining element and driving force of Jehovah's Witnesses. After he died, another dictator ruled over the Witnesses, and that was a man named Rutherford. But after Rutherford died, power devolved into what is called the governing body.

• 13:12Speaker 03

  And the governing body is like a dozen men who run Jehovah's Witnesses. And I would say that without the presence of a single personality, that is, an object of worship, that is the defining element of the group, the group has changed from a personality cult led by one absolute leader to

• 13:35Speaker 03

  What could be seen as a destructive authoritarian organization, but not a personality cult as it once was. So what you see with some groups is they evolve and change, particularly when the founder leader dies, and then the group may disintegrate and vanish, or the group may have a successor as Russell did. And that group, by the way, Jehovah's Witnesses, were once simply called the Russelites, which tells you quite a bit. So what now they have is- The Russelites? Wow. They were called the Russelites.

• 14:15Speaker 03

  So typically, a group identifies with that leader to the extreme that they might be called by the leader's name. For example, the Unification Church, founded by Reverend Moon, was often called, the followers were called the Moonies. And that was because of how strong their identification was with Reverend Moon, who was an object of worship. So in my opinion, the Jehovah's Witnesses continue to be a destructive authoritarian organization, but I would not call them a destructive cult. I think they've evolved beyond that point. But they still have practices such as their encouragement

• 14:59Speaker 03

  of their members not to have blood transfusions, which results in deaths every year. And also, they have very extreme beliefs about the world. The reason that they don't salute the flag or pledge allegiance or belong to organizations is because per their belief system, they believe that there is only one organization established by Jehovah God on earth, and that is Jehovah's Witnesses. And therefore, they cannot have any dual loyalty or allegiance. And this is the reason they're not open to being in a political party, voting, being in the armed services.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  And in fact, they became conscientious objectors during wartime and so on. But today, if you leave the Witnesses, and about 50%

• 15:55Speaker 03

  of the young people that are raised witnesses will eventually leave. You may be cut off by your family and they have a practice called disfellowshipping or shunning. And if you leave and they announce that you have been disfellowshipped, your family may shun you.

• 16:15Speaker 00

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• 16:44Speaker 01

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• 17:14Speaker 03

  Now, some witnesses may navigate that a bit more carefully. For example, Michael Jackson was raised a witness and he left, but his family continued to talk to him. Some would argue, well, he was a rich celebrity and they gave him special treatment. But on the other hand, I think he did what was called disassociation. So there was a little bit more of a nuanced departure for him and he wasn't cut off by his family. So I think it's possible to navigate out of the witnesses without that, but many, many people are shunned and disfellowshipped and they go through an enormous amount of pain and suffering.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  And I have testified in court many times about the witnesses in custody. cases and in one wrongful death case, the Coughlin case, which we talked about on the way over. And, you know, what happens is, let's say there's a couple and they're both witnesses, but one leaves, divorce, and then custody battle over the minor children. And it can get very intense where the children really get caught in this war or struggle because the witnesses feel that, you know, they can't celebrate birthdays, they can't

• 18:41Speaker 03

  celebrate Christmas, they don't acknowledge holidays, only the Watchtower Bible and Track Society and Jehovah's Witnesses is what they celebrate or adhere to or whatever. So, the end result is that the child is in the middle and the parents are fighting and the witness parent wants to raise the child as a witness. And frequently what happens is they will, if they have custody, turn that child against the non-witness parent.

• 19:16Shawn Ryan?

  This is happening to my editor right now. He has a son and you're describing this perfectly. It's almost like, it's almost like there's a textbook out there or something on how to do it. They've lied to the kid, they've turned completely against him, his family has disowned him. It's, it's, it's really sad to see it happen.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I've testified in these custody cases and in most of the cases that I've testified in, of course, I am working for the parent who is not a witness. One case, for example, that I, that I worked on, the, the father had become a witness, even though he wasn't one, when he married his wife and they had their children. And it became a source of friction and the end result was that- The wife divorced him. And I testified about how the witnesses and their beliefs would impact the children and how it would affect them.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  For example, they couldn't be a Boy Scout or a Girl Scout. They couldn't be in Little League. They couldn't celebrate holidays. They couldn't go to a Christmas party and so on. So the mother ended up with primary custody and the father had visitation. And his visitation was prescribed in the sense that he could not take the children and indoctrinate them in the witnesses. And he could not go with them, for example, door to door as witnesses do, you know, handing out tracts and trying to recruit people.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  Because the witnesses, unlike most religions, are intolerant of other religious beliefs in a way that is very extreme, that creates an impossibility of compromise. Whereas most parents could work that out, it's very difficult for the parent who is not a witness to work it out with a witness parent. And so I've seen a number of divorces, child custody battles over situations like that. And also, the courts have had to intervene to get a child life-sustaining blood transfusions.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Because a parent who's a witness believes that by getting a blood transfusion for their child, they have committed a horrible wrong. And they're encouraged by the leaders in their church, their kingdom hall, the elders, not to do that. And so the courts have had to intervene at times and order that a child does receive a blood transfusion. And I guess the premise for that would be that the child has a right to life. The parents have a right to believe as they wish to believe and as adults to refuse a blood transfusion. But they do not have the right to make that choice for their child, who has a right to

• 22:32Speaker 03

  live. And so the courts have intervened in a number of cases like that. So there have been a number of things that have occurred like that. And also, the witnesses have had a problem similar to the Catholic Church in regards to sexual abuse of minor children within the witnesses. And that is their refusal to go to the authorities to have people arrested and instead to kind of keep it within the witness community. And that has caused a lot of people who have suffered from abuse to feel that they were

• 23:15Speaker 03

  betrayed by the leadership of the witnesses.

• 23:18Shawn Ryan?

  That seems to be a commonality in a lot of these cultish and cult-type organizations. What is the... Why do they... I mean, when they recruit somebody into a cult... I don't know the percentage, but it has to be, it has to be like 99% of people realize that molesting children is pure evil. So, when you get a cult like Jehovah's Witness and/or an authoritarian... What did you call it? An authoritarian organization?

• 24:00Speaker 03

  A destructive authoritarian organization.

• 24:04Shawn Ryan?

  How do they manipulate somebody off the street who knows sexual abuse and exploitation of children is wrong? How do they get them to, I mean, how do they get them to look the other way? When they know this is happening?

• 24:20Speaker 03

  Well, within, within the witnesses and within certain groups, they would say that it is in the best interest of the group and that the ends justify the means. We are the witnesses, we are Jehovah's, we are Jehovah God's, you know, established organization on earth. We should not suffer scandal. This would discredit us, this would cause problems for us. And in the better interest of the group and its, and its larger goals, we will make that sacrifice. Now, there are cults that actually man, have mandated sexual abuse. For example-

• 25:03Shawn Ryan?

  Mandated sexual abuse?

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, there, there was a group, the Children of God, that was started by a man by the name of Moses David Berg, who's now dead. River Phoenix, Joaquin Phoenix, were at one time included in this group because their parents joined and they, they were involved in the group. And the leader was a pedophile. And he mandated that adults in the group molest children. And he molested his own children, including his granddaughter, who I met, and his daughter, who I also met. And, you know, this was an insidious, horribly destructive cult.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  And they would escape accountability to the authorities by creating, you know, kind of isolated communities and cutting their people off from any means of reporting. But the mandate was, this is holy, this is right, this is what we do. And within this controlled environment, where people were cut off from an outside frame of reference, from feedback from others, and children were being raised in this environment, and this was their normal. This horrible things went on within that community. And I've talked to many young people,

• 26:26Speaker 03

  young adults that were raised within Children of God and suffered horribly. And, and, and felt very conflicted because they would say to me, Rick, you know, I love my dad and I love my mom, but at the same time, I hate them. Because they brought me into this organization. I know they were true believers. And they themselves were tricked and, and, and, you know, controlled by the group. But horrible things happened to me. I suffered sexual abuse as a child. And it was mandated by this group. And I, I wouldn't have been in it if my parents hadn't joined.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  And I think one of the things we often forget is that there are children that are being raised within groups that have been called destructive cults. And they have no option. They turn to their family, their parents, for protection and a sense of safety. But their parents are manipulated and controlled by the leaders of these groups. And they're not there to protect their own child.

• 27:36Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. I mean, what, what is, so how do they? We're gonna get into this a lot more, but for, just for a frame of reference, I mean, how? What is the, did they have an explanation on why they need to molest and exploit kids sexually inside that cult?

• 28:00Speaker 03

  In the case of Children of God, it was just a bizarre twisting of scriptures. So this was a way of showing love. This was some kind of divine love that they were sharing, you know? And, and Berg, Moses David Berg, would also tell the women in the group that they should recruit men by offering themselves sexually. And this was called flirty fishing. And then later, they would actually charge for sex with, with men that they would try to recruit. And they were called hookers for Christ. And I mean, this sounds bizarre, but this is how bizarre some of, some of these groups are.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  Probably one of the most insidious groups was the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, the FLDS. And that is the polygamist organization that was led by Warren Jeffs, who's now in prison in Texas. And there were thousands of people that followed Jeffs. And these were people that were raised within polygamy for generations. For, some of these groups go back 100 years. And they lived in relatively isolated communities where the group controlled the police, they controlled the school, they controlled everything.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  One community was Colorado City, Arizona, another was Hildale, Utah. Now these groups have been, kind of, dealt with through the law and Jeffs is in prison. But for the children, they don't know any other life. For their families, they don't know any other life. And there were girls that were literally raped by Jeffs and, and others in the group. And they were minor children. So only in recent years has law enforcement began to really deal with these communities.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  One would be the FLDS, another would be the Kingston Clan in Utah that also was guilty of, of this type of abuse. So, you know, there, there are about 50,000 people living in polygamist communities in North America. So, so that would be another group where things would go on inside the group that outsiders would not know and that the group would control and people suffered, in particular, children.

• 30:43Shawn Ryan?

  What are some of the most prevalent cults today?

• 30:49Speaker 03

  Well, I would say we've touched upon the polygamist groups. And then there are, in my opinion, Scientology would be a group that I would be concerned about, even though there are many celebrities involved in it. It's a shrinking organization, but they still control a great many people. And they have an enormous amount of money and property that they control. That group was started by L. Ron Hubbard, the science fiction writer, who, you know, ultimately created a religion that has tax-exempt status in the United States. And now is run by a man by the name of David Miscavige,

• 31:34Speaker 03

  who took over after L. Ron Hubbard died. And so there are prominent people involved in Scientology, like Tom Cruise, John Travolta. Interestingly, I had always thought over the years that if a celebrity that was in Scientology left and turned on them, that could be where celebrity recruitment, which often helped them, could be a two-edged sword that cut both ways. And that happened when Leah Remini, you know, the sitcom star, left Scientology and started to speak out against them. And she has accomplished an enormous amount of good,

• 32:19Speaker 03

  basically explaining what's going on inside Scientology and how it affected her. And she was raised by Scientology parents to be a Scientologist. So that is an organization that...

• 32:35Speaker 03

  That I look at quite a bit and get quite a few complaints about. And I would say that most of these groups are relatively small. They might have a few hundred followers. Some of them have a few thousand. Scientology might have 25,000 to 50,000 people involved at this point, though they claim to have many more people than that. And then there's the Unification Church, which was founded by Reverend Moon, which still exists within the United States and internationally, and has a very strong presence in Japan. So there are just, there are so many groups.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  And many of them recruit online. They recruit through social media platforms. They have YouTube channels. They have Twitter, X accounts. They're on Instagram. There's even a group led by Robert Shin, who had something called 7M Films and the Shekinah Church, that is nicknamed the TikTok cult. Because his followers, dancers and entertainers, do very popular videos on TikTok. And Shin makes money from these people. And they live in group housing. And there's a documentary now on Netflix

• 34:04Speaker 03

  in which they allege that this is a cult group, that they manipulate and control their members, and that they cause families to be cut off. And a number of people that were in the Shekinah Church and were associated with Robert Shin have spoken out. And then, you know, there are just so many of these groups. You know, it's hard to keep track of them. But I do try to create a, through the Cult Education Institute, a database where people can find information.

• 34:40Shawn Ryan?

  You know, when you say, I want to explore Scientology for a little bit, but when you, when, when, when the leader of a cult, when the torch gets passed, how do they?

• 34:56Shawn Ryan?

  How's that person selected?

• 34:59Speaker 03

  Well, in the case of David Miskevich, it's interesting because he was in his twenties when L. Ron Hubbard died. And he was like his, uh, his gatekeeper. He was in, uh, full-time as a Scientology, um, uh, member of staff. And his job was to take care of and, and he was like a courier, a messenger for L. Ron Hubbard. And he was able to use that position as gatekeeper to then promote himself into a position of absolute leader of Scientology. David Miskevich has held that position for many, many years.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  And I would, in my opinion, L. Ron Hubbard was, uh, not a nice guy, but probably an easier leader to deal with than David Miskevich, who many people that have left Scientology say is a very, um, harsh, uh, very punitive leader. And so, so I would say that in the case of Scientology, it's, things seem to have gone from, from bad to worse under the leadership of David Miskevich. That's my view. Uh, and, and I think that even though he had the breakthrough of getting tax-exempt

• 36:24Speaker 03

  status for Scientology and, and building it as a financial empire that's certainly worth more than a billion dollars, uh, it, it's shrinking from the standpoint of membership. But there are these people that are called Sea Org members, the Sea Organization, SCA. And L. Ron Hubbard, uh, was in the Navy. And so he kind of fancied himself as a leader of a kind of naval organization. And at one time, he lived on a ship with many of his loyal followers. So what evolved is this organization of staff called the Sea Organization.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  And there are thousands of them and they staff various facilities for Scientology. And their entire lives are, are controlled, uh, monitored by Scientology.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  And by the way, I've testified as an expert in court regarding Scientology. And one of the most, and I've done a number of interventions to help people leave Scientology. And I write about that in my book. And I think it's a very difficult organization for people to leave. Because if you have family in Scientology or friends, and there are people that have been raised in Scientology, their whole life is Scientology, there's a policy called disconnection, which would be the extreme equivalent of what Jehovah's Witnesses called disfellowshipping. In Scientology, it's called disconnection.

• 38:07Speaker 03

  And so they declare someone as what they call a suppressive person, and then you are to disconnect from them, which means it's over. You have nothing to do with them. And it's rumored that this is the reason that Nicole Kidman's adopted children, Connor and Isabella Cruz, have very little to do with her. Because they were raised in Scientology. And it's also been said that the reason that Katie Holmes left her marriage with Tom Cruise was because of Scientology. And that he has very little to do with his daughter Suri because of Scientology.

• 38:51Shawn Ryan?

  So what do, what is the basis of Scientology? What do they believe?

• 38:57Speaker 03

  Scientology is really kind of a self-help organization, or that's how they sell themselves. So they have courses, they have curriculum, and you go through these ascending levels. First, you reach what they call clear. And then there are eight different levels above clear. They call them operating fate in level one, two, all the way to eight. OT eight. Tom Cruise, I think, is an OT seven. John Travolta, an OT seven. Jenna Elfman, I think, also an OT seven. Danny Masterson, by the way, was in, was very much involved in Scientology.

• 39:42Speaker 03

  And the women that he raped said that because they were Scientologists, this...

• 39:49Speaker 03

  This abuse did not come out for a number of years. And of course, eventually, he was convicted. Now he's in prison. So what Scientologists do is they go through what's called auditing, which is also referred to as a kind of spiritual counseling. And you sit with a person who is an auditor. You hold these metal cans, which are connected by wires to a box called an E-meter, which is really like part of a lie detector. It measures nervous tension in your hands, and it makes the needle move. And so you are asked questions about your life and what's going on in your life by the auditor.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  Tom Cruise has gone through this, John Travolta, Leah Remini at one point. And they take copious notes, and they look at the E-meter to see when the needle moves. And when it moves, they know you're nervous about what they're asking you. And then they can drill down into that. And people sign forms, releasing their files to Scientology. So Scientology has the goods on you. They know all about your life. They do this in what they call a process to deal with the negative reactive mind. That is, to help you.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  It's all done under the idea that this is to help you become a better person, to realize your full potential. Tom Cruise has many times praised Scientology. He says that it cured him of dyslexia. Other Scientologists will make similar claims. And Scientology considers itself the ultimate science of the mind, which is why they are very antagonistic to mental health professionals, who they see as, if you will, a competing source of help, an alternative to what they regard as the way

• 42:01Speaker 03

  to deal with your mind and your problems. So Scientologists pay a lot of money for auditing. They pay a lot of money for these courses, and on and on it goes. And it can be quite expensive, moving up the OT levels, doing Scientology.

• 42:23Shawn Ryan?

  I've heard a lot of rumors about people that have tried to escape this, that have been blocked away, kind of kidnapped. What is, what do you make of this? Is that true?

• 42:35Speaker 03

  Well, you know, on occasion, Scientologists will have problems, you know, that are not apparently effectively dealt with by Scientology. They may have a psychotic break, they may have problems because they, they're schizophrenic, or they're deeply depressed. And Scientology says that they can cure these problems, but, but they apparently can't, because there are families that say a suicide occurred because their family member did not get the help they

• 43:17Speaker 03

  needed, or that they were in lockdown in Scientology, because that was what Scientology felt they needed, though they did not.

• 43:29Shawn Ryan?

  What is a lockdown? What is that?

• 43:30Speaker 03

  Well, they, they will, they will isolate a person and monitor them during a period of time, which they believe will resolve their problem. And, you know, this, this happens with certain situations with Scientology, and people may not get the help that they need.

• 43:54Shawn Ryan?

  How long can somebody be locked down?

• 43:56Speaker 03

  Well, there are people that have been locked in what's called the rehabilitation project force, you know, within Scientology. This is a program that Scientology runs, where if you are deemed to be a problem, you can be isolated in a rehabilitation project for months, years.

• 44:23Shawn Ryan?

  So it's a re-education program?

• 44:25Speaker 03

  It supposedly is going to help this person to be, to be a better, more productive member of society, of Scientology. But in reality, people that have been a part of this program, which...

• 44:42Speaker 03

  They become isolated in this facility in Hemet, California. They feel it's like a prison. And there have been people held there for long periods of time. And there have been people that claim they escaped from that program. So I would say that Scientology is a very, can be a very harsh, very controlling organization for people. And this can cause a lot of problems. And I've had complaints about Scientology going back decades.

• 45:20Speaker 00

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• 46:20Shawn Ryan?

  So when you say, when these people are put into the, whatever, I can't remember what you call it, the re-education camp, is that against their will?

• 46:36Speaker 03

  If if someone is put in that camp, it is with their consent. But I would argue, how did that consent? How was that consent obtained? What was the process? Because there have been allegations that it can be quite coercive, quite manipulative, to get that person to go to that rehabilitation program. And it's a very, very harsh environment, according to people who have left. So I would say that they are acting against their own best interests by being there. And in my opinion, that would be a sign of undue influence.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  That people are acting against their own best interests, but conforming to what the leadership wants them to do, which is in the leadership's best interest. So, in my opinion, Scientology exercises very extreme undue influence over its members. In my book, I wrote about a Scientologist that I was asked to intervene, to get him out of Scientology. He had joined when he was 22. He had been in Scientology for 27 years. He was almost 50 when I met him. And his whole life had been Scientology from the time he was 22.

• 48:00Speaker 03

  And his wife was not a full-blown Scientologist. His two children had not become Scientologists. But they had not objected. They had done courses. They had kind of placated him in Scientology, though they had concerns. They didn't really want to be all in. And so what happened was, at one point, Scientology wanted him to become a Sea Org member. They wanted him to go to a Scientology facility, live there, become full-time, and leave his family, and divorce his wife.

• 48:41Speaker 03

  And he told his wife this, and then his family decided to do an intervention. And, boy, that was a tough one. But eventually, he decided to leave Scientology.

• 48:54Speaker 03

  And I think the point of that, that he kind of had an epiphany that opened his mind to the possibility that Scientology wasn't quite what he thought, was when we talked about what's called the purification rundown. And this is a drug treatment, kind of all toxin, out of your body treatment that Scientology does, which is a process of saunas, ingesting vegetable oil, large doses of niacin, and supposedly they, they can leach the toxins out of your body.

• 49:35Speaker 03

  And this is premised on the belief that was, that was posited by L. Ron Hubbard, the creator of Scientology, that if you use drugs, if, for example, you once used LSD, or you once used some type of prescribed drug that was not good, such as Scientology would say that any psychiatric prescribed drug is a negative thing. So Scientology believes that that drug is in the fatty tissues of your body indefinitely,

• 50:18Speaker 03

  and that only through the purification rundown can it be extracted. And that if it isn't extracted, you're at risk, because at any time, that might be released into your blood, and then you would hallucinate, you would, you would have a problem functioning. And so Scientology charges money to do the purification rundown, and people go through this. And when I was working with this man who had been in Scientology for 27 years, I said to him, "You know that medical science has proven that drugs do not reside in your fatty tissue indefinitely, and a drug test will show..."

• 51:04Speaker 03

  The presence of drugs for only a certain period of time, that they, they flow out of the body, you know, and they're no longer there. And he found that very, very difficult to, to believe. And so I showed him a great deal of documentation and evidence. And I said, look, when L. Ron Hubbard wrote this, that was back in the 50s. It was a long time ago, but science has moved forward. And the, the research shows that Hubbard was wrong. And so, science isn't static. It evolves based on research and, and new information.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  And so what happened in Scientology is they're stuck because they can't ever question what Hubbard wrote. And so at that point, he, he really had this kind of epiphany. And he said, wait a minute. Scientology, that's supposed to be like a play on science. And that it's more than just a religious belief. It's somehow scientific. And yet you're showing me that something that is believed by Scientologists, that they claim is scientifically true, is not. And Scientology, because it's so rigid, cannot evolve beyond that.

• 52:32Speaker 03

  Because as Isaac Hayes once said, who was a Scientologist, what L. Ron Hubbard said is immutable. It is always true forever. And so in that sense Scientology is most clearly a religion based on belief. And when that belief in Hubbard conflicts with scientific research, they will go with Hubbard, not with the research. But at this point where this man was unplugged. From his Scientology community with his family, had a chance to independently review the research. He concluded, wait a minute. So it's not scientific.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  And Scientology may be a play on the word "science", but it's not science-based. And this belief should have been changed. And the purification rundown is flawed. And once he saw that, if you will, crack, it just opened up, opened up. And then he was able to realize, wait a minute. I don't want to leave my wife. I've been married for many years. I don't want to leave my kids. They love me. How often can I see them if I'm a full-time Sea Org member? So he, at the pleadings of his family and with this kind of recognition

• 53:58Speaker 03

  of some of the flaws in Scientology, decided to leave.

• 54:03Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. What's it like for you as a deprogrammer? I mean, when you see, when you see the epiphany happen?

• 54:11Speaker 03

  It's, uh, it's awesome. Because in my opinion, the people that I'm working with are really prisoners, you know, psychologically, emotionally, in these groups. And to see them be able to break free and think for themselves and think independently, and then literally think their way out, which is the antithesis of what the group wants for them. I think that's a really great thing. And in some of the interventions that I've done, for example, I did an intervention in Europe in which a man who had diabetes was told by the group

• 54:55Speaker 03

  that he could meditate his cure, that he didn't have to use insulin. And he almost died three times before his family brought me in. We did an intervention. And quite honestly, he didn't abandon meditation. He continued to believe many of the group's teachings. But he decided, I'm going to take my insulin. Because he had a little girl who was about two and he had a wife who loved him. And he wanted to live. But the group had told him, "No, you can meditate and your diabetes will be cured."

• 55:39Speaker 03

  This is a group called Falun Gong, which originated in China and is known in the United States largely through a dance company it runs called Shenyuan, which is supposedly Chinese traditional dance. They also control a newspaper called The Epoch Times. And just recently, the CFO of The Epoch Times was charged with money laundering, millions of dollars. We'll see how that works out. But for me, what I see with Falun Gong is people are being taught that they can meditate away medical problems, and that can be lethal.

• 56:23Speaker 03

  And I've dealt with that a number of times, where someone is in a group, the group is teaching them that they don't have to take a life-saving medication that they need. And as a result, their life is in danger. And the family brings me in, and I'm sitting with them, and it's life or death. And so I think when I have a breakthrough with someone and they leave the group as a direct result of the intervention, I'm very happy for the family, very happy for them, that they can move on with their life.

• 57:02Shawn Ryan?

  Back to the Scientology stuff. You had mentioned that the re-education process can be extremely harsh. What kind of stuff are they doing?

• 57:15Speaker 03

  Well, according to stories that have filtered out from Hemet, California, where they have this rehabilitation community.

• 57:26Speaker 03

  According to stories that have filtered out about this rehabilitation community, they live in very extreme situations. They lack proper living conditions. It can be very hot in Hemet, California. There are accounts that they will live without proper air conditioning, that the facilities are not properly clean and well-maintained, that they are subjected to humiliating punishments and ridicule.

• 58:05Shawn Ryan?

  Such as?

• 58:06Speaker 03

  Well, one woman claimed that they ridiculed her, that they called her names, that they made her basically grovel in this facility. And there have been people that claim that they can't reach family members once they are in this facility. So this is really of concern. Now Scientology will say they are here voluntarily. And I would say if there was a wellness check done by police, and local police in Hemet

• 58:46Speaker 03

  came to the Hemet facility, Golden Era Studios, where they make promotional videos and such for Scientology as well, that if they interviewed these people in a wellness check, they would say, "I'm okay. I'm okay staying here." But the issue for me is getting them out of the facility to be with their family for a period of time where they're not under the control or the influence of Scientology, and then maybe they wouldn't say that. They would say, "No, I don't want to go back. It's very harsh there."

• 59:27Speaker 03

  But for those people that are in that facility, they feel that this is warranted, that this is part of what Scientology is doing to help them, and probably if the police came by and did a wellness check, they would say, "I'm fine."

• 59:43Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Wow. That's... I mean, is there...

• 59:53Shawn Ryan?

  Is there any proof of this? Or is it all kind of... You keep seeing words like allegedly and reports of and stuff like that. Has there ever been a wellness check by police or a federal law enforcement agency on this?

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  I am not certain to what extent it's been investigated. There have been... There's been talk that the FBI at times has been involved in looking into Scientology. For example, David Miscavige, his wife Shelley Miscavige. She was not... Has not been seen in public for a long period of time. And there were allegations made by Leah Remini and others that, you know, "Where's Shelley Miscavige? What happened to her?" And later, it was discovered that she is in a relatively comfortable but isolated Scientology facility in Northern California. And I think there was a wellness check done.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  And I think that she probably said, "I'm fine." And she's, I would say, isolated and sequestered there. But from her point of view, "I'm doing what Scientology expects me to do. I'm a loyal Scientologist." She doesn't question the situation. But many people feel that she was put there by her husband, the supreme leader of Scientology, to isolate her because he just, for whatever reason, didn't want to be with her anymore.

• 1:01:26Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  As they had been. And so, he put her there. And so, I would say that there are Scientologists who may be feeling that their life is very difficult and that they're going through a lot of hardship. But basically Scientology is teaching them to suck it up and to accept this as part of your process of being a better human being and that we know what is in your best interest better than you do. And so, when people leave destructive cults, many times, they have not sorted things out and they feel, "There's something wrong with me."

• 1:02:13Speaker 03

  I couldn't hack it. I wasn't good enough. I wasn't loyal enough. Very similar to people in abusive-controlling relationships. Self-blaming. You know. Hurt. Looking at themselves and saying, "Look, it's really, it's my fault what happened." Instead of looking at the person who was an abusive-controlling partner or the organization that was abusive and controlling and recognizing that they were to blame and that they, the person who was hurt, is really a victim.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  So for people leaving cults, it's a process of sorting it out, of, in essence, deprogramming themselves. And what they often do is, this is done through a process of education, where they read about cults, they read about the manipulation that goes on in cults, what we call "brainwashing", and they sort it out and they begin to recognize what happened to them. But until they do that, they may blame themselves rather than the organization that hurt them.

• 1:03:27Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Speaking of the "brainwashing" stuff, how does the "thought reform" or "brainwashing", how does that, how do they start that process? Can we just go through the whole thing?

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  There have been books and research done about the process of manipulation that is orchestrated, mandated systematically within cult groups. For example, the book "Coercive Persuasion" by Edgar Schein, a psychologist, a professor at MIT, and the books "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" by the psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton, who taught at Harvard. And so, these books inform, in large part, our understanding. Another excellent book is "Influence" by Robert Cialdini, which explores the basic structure of influence, the six principles, as he would identify them.

• 1:04:29Speaker 03

  So by understanding this research, this body of research, we can better understand what happens to people in destructive cults. Schein would say there are three stages of coercive persuasion. First, you break people down. Then, when they are broken down, you then provide the means and the process of change that you want. And they become changed. You manipulate them in that diminished, broken state to be changed. And then after that, you refreeze them in that changed state, which is accomplished in large part by social isolation,

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  peer reinforcement, and so on. So what happens to people in a group? Like, I'll give you an example. Synanon was a drug rehab community that then became a destructive cult, founded by Charles Diedrich in California. And they came up with what is called attack therapy, or the hot seat. So they would take a member of the community, put them in the center of a circle of people, and those people would bombard them with everything that was wrong with them, everything they needed to look at to change. And so they would break them down. And then, once they were broken,

• 1:05:58Speaker 03

  and groups have various processes by which they break people down, then you are open to change. Because you feel, "I'm broken. I am desperate for answers. Help me." So you're in distress. And then, the group offers you the program, the means by which you can address your broken state and make yourself whole. And then subsequently, you become part of this kind of subculture or community of like-minded people who reinforce that changed state of being and keep you in that state of change, in that program.

• 1:06:43Speaker 03

  And so Lifton then has eight criteria, which he lists to recognize a thought reform program. For example, what he calls milieu control, or control of the environment, or what he would call the cult of confession. That is, in my view, what Scientology is doing in auditing. That is, get people to empty themselves with virtually no boundaries, so that you know all their weaknesses, all their vulnerabilities, which you can then exploit. And then the group has what Lifton calls a sacred science, which is what we believe is absolute,

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  and you cannot question it. If you do, you are unscientific, you are ungodly, you are demonic, whatever. But the group holds out its belief system as absolute without being able to question anything. And then there's the demand for purity, which Lifton describes as a kind of black and white world, no shades of gray, where you are forced to either be the good and the pure or recognize that what you believe or what you think is impure and negative. So you're purging your mind and you're purging your emotions to conform with that demand for purity.

• 1:08:13Speaker 03

  And then there's what Lifton calls doctrine over person, which is basically the subordinating of everything to the sacred science of the group, so that everything you see must be seen through that lens. And you are doing this also, again, to yourself, where you feel that any doubts, any misgivings you have are impure, are negative, are wrong, and therefore need to be purged according to the doctrine. So what Lifton would say is, if these eight criteria, and there are eight of them, if they're evident in a group,

• 1:08:57Speaker 03

  whether they admit it or not, they're using thought reform. And what Shyne would say is this process of coercive persuasion likewise can be identified. And he first studied it through the re-education programs in Communist China. And so this is really kind of the seminal research that forms the foundation for our understanding of what process goes on inside cults that changes people in such a way that we from the outside look at them and we say, wow, those people are crazy. Why do they believe that stuff? But what we don't get is the process they have been put through to get where they're

• 1:09:40Speaker 03

  at and how controlled that environment that they're in really is to the extent that they have had, they have been, in a sense, forced to accept a new normal, which is the beliefs and the, and the behavior within the group that we would regard as bizarre. But within that bubble that they exist in, that alternate reality, it's seen as totally normal.

• 1:10:13Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, wow. Fascinating stuff. Rick, let's take a quick break and when we come back, I want to dive into NXIVM.

• 1:10:23Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 1:10:25Shawn Ryan?

  Perfect.

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

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• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  FX's American Horror Story returns for an unrivaled 13th installment with the iconic horrors you love to fear and an all-star cast reprising fan favorite roles. Light your candles, draw your pentagrams, and prepare for a supreme surprise. FX's American Horror Story 13. Now streaming on Hulu.

• 1:11:38Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Rick, we're back from the break and we're getting ready to dive into NXeum, which I know you had a big part in. Not in the cult, but, uh, but, uh, deprogramming and getting involved with some court stuff. So, could you go into that a little bit?

• 1:11:58Speaker 03

  Well, that, this all started in around 2001, 2002. And I was approached by a family in New Jersey that their, their, their son and two daughters were involved in NXeum. And I had never heard of it. Actually, at that point, it was called Executive Success Programs, or ESP, and the people involved were called ESPians. And they followed a guy named Keith Rennery, who at one point had been an Amway distributor. And then he created a big MLM, multi-level marketing company called Consumer Byline,

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  which was sued out of existence by attorney generals in different states. And then after that folded, he created ESP, Executive Success Programs, which evolved into NXeum. And that was a seminar-selling company that basically marketed courses, very expensive, that people would attend for self-improvement. And...

• 1:13:08Speaker 03

  Renieri had what he called a philosophy that he taught through Nexium, which was called rational inquiry. And really, what I came to find out was that Nexium was actually an amalgam of things that Renieri had copied, largely from Scientology. He copied much of what they teach. And then he also incorporated kind of the structure of another organization called Landmark Education, formerly known as EST, Erhard Seminar's Training, their kind of training structure. And then he also fancied Ayn Rand,

• 1:13:49Speaker 03

  the author of, you know, Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead. And he incorporated many of her beliefs regarding objectivism into his philosophy. And then he created multi-level marketing for his trainers, his coaches. That he adapted from his experience with Amway and his previous failed MLM. And this family came to me and they said, "Our son, our daughters are involved in this. Our son-in-law is involved. Will you please help me? Help us." And so I examined, I investigated, and I realized that Nexium was was really a large group awareness training company

• 1:14:34Speaker 03

  and that the kind of training that they offered was very extreme and, and I would say indicative of a thought reform program and coercive persuasion as opposed to anything really educational. And that is that the ultimate goal, in my opinion, that Nexium had was to create people who would be deployable agents for Nexium, that they would do whatever Keith Renieri wanted, give him all their money, work long hours for very little compensation. It was all about just serving Keith Renieri and his co-founder Nancy Salzman.

• 1:15:20Speaker 03

  They actually would call Rhenary Vanguard. That was his title. And every year, there would be what was called Vanguard Week, which would be the celebration of his birthday. People would bring him gifts, praise him. And Nancy Salzman was called prefect. So they ruled over this community, which eventually would include thousands of people in the United States, in Canada, in Mexico. There would be celebrities that would become involved. The actress Alison Mack, from the television series Smallville. For a period of time, Catherine Oxenburgh, who starred in Dynasty,

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  the television series from the 80s. She was involved. And her then-husband, Casper Van Dean, and their daughter also was involved. So this became a very large operation. And in particular, two heirs to the Seagram's liquor fortune, Sarah and Claire Bronfman, became involved. And they controlled hundreds of millions of dollars. And it has been reported that Rhenary got approximately 100 million from the Bronfman's, that was then used by him at his behest for whatever he wanted.

• 1:16:49Speaker 03

  So this went on for a number of years. And I did interventions for this family in New Jersey, getting three of their family members out, but one son would remain. And much to their sorrow. I think he stayed in until almost the bitter end, when Keith Rhenary was arrested. And what happened within NXIVM was what happens with a lot of totalitarian cults, where the leader has no accountability. Rinay, like many of the cult leaders I've dealt with, in my opinion, he would fit, and many people have described him, mental health professionals, as a psychopath

• 1:17:33Speaker 03

  or a malignant narcissist. So this kind of individual just gets worse. Especially in a cult environment where everyone is agreeing with him constantly, and there are no checks or balances. So his behavior became more and more outrageous. He sexually exploited women in the group. And then this escalated until, in the end, he created a kind of secret society, a cult within a cult, that were sex slaves. Sex slaves? Sex slaves. And these women would be branded with a cauterizing iron, with no anesthetic,

• 1:18:15Speaker 03

  and in their pelvis would be engraved what later was understood to be his initials. And it was that that was finally the tipping point. How many women were part of that? How many women are out there with his initials branded on them? The women that were branded, I'm not sure exactly how many. I think it's safe to say that there were a number of women that were branded. One would eventually, Sarah Edmondson, would allow the brand to be photographed, and it was on the front page of the New York Times. And that was the beginning of the end for Keith Rinay,

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  who was eventually arrested for sex trafficking, racketeering, fraud, and also, he was found to be in possession of child pornography.

• 1:19:09Speaker 03

  And so it was a horrible, horrible cult, but it was a process of years that this went on. And I was a witness to the escalating destructive behavior of Rhenary and how, no matter how much money he had, no matter how much power he acquired, he wanted more and more and more. And it was about humiliating women, having control over women, and just plundering money from his followers. Eventually, he would be arrested by Mexican authorities in Puerto Vallarta, and then he would be brought to the border and deported, and he would stand trial in Brooklyn.

• 1:19:54Speaker 03

  And I would testify against him as a fact witness. Rhenary, I was the first person to expose Rhenary and talk about what he was doing. And there were two doctors, a psychiatrist and a psychologist, a clinical psychologist, who wrote papers that I published at the Cult Education Institute database, which were a review of the process that Rhenary was putting people through. And they would use Lifton's Eight Criteria, Schein's Three Stages of Coercive Persuasion,

• 1:20:36Speaker 03

  to offer an analysis of what he was really doing, which was he was breaking people down, manipulating them, indoctrinating them to become essentially his deployable agents, his slaves. And those papers became the subject and focus of a lawsuit that Rhenary filed against me that would go on for 14 years.

• 1:21:06Speaker 03

  In federal court in New York and New Jersey. Ultimately, the lawsuit was dismissed before he was arrested. But that's how long he continued to harass me. And he wanted me to take these papers down from being online. But I never did. And they were used by so many people that were traumatized by Keith Raniere. Families, individuals that he manipulated, who eventually would leave. Some would actually go through a kind of breakdown where they would be hospitalized and then leave the group.

• 1:21:49Speaker 03

  And then many of them would call me and say, "Thank you, thank you for having those papers online. That those doctors helped me to understand that I wasn't crazy. Those papers helped me to understand that I'm not crazy, that I wasn't crazy, and that this was something that was a direct byproduct of the training that I was subjected to within NXIVM. And if I hadn't been able to read that and understand that, it would have been even harder for me to recover." So that's why Raniere wanted those papers to be taken down. Because he did not want people to know what he was doing,

• 1:22:30Speaker 03

  which was deliberate, which was methodical, which was systematic. And he had orchestrated this to break people down and control them within NXIVM. And he did this for many, many years until he was finally arrested. And thankfully, he's now in prison, serving 120-year sentence. And he's no longer able to hurt people. But during those years, he hurt many, many people through NXIVM. And he had two heirs to the Seagram's liquor fortune financing him, basically.

• 1:23:10Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:23:11Speaker 03

  And at one point, he even had the Dalai Lama of Tibet come to Albany, New York and endorse him and do photo ops with him. And it's been said that the Dalai Lama received a very large check from the Bronfmans in order for him to agree and do that. And it certainly made me feel deeply disappointed in the Dalai Lama. Because leading up to his appearance with Keith Raniere, in which he awarded him a kind of a white scarf to denote that he was,

• 1:23:51Speaker 03

  I guess, a good guy, someone worthy of praise from a Nobel Prize winner, the Dalai Lama of Tibet. And he would insinuate the Dalai Lama that Keith Raniere was being unfairly pilloried by the press. When in fact, you know, he was one of the worst cult leaders in modern history. I mean, according to all the court records and his convictions. And the Dalai Lama, by endorsing him, really disappointed me. And there were many people that shared information with the Dalai Lama's offices,

• 1:24:33Speaker 03

  hoping that he would not allow himself to be used as a pawn by Keith Raniere. But that failed, and he ended up appearing in Albany, New York. And there are many photographs showing him with Raniere to prove that.

• 1:24:47Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:24:50Shawn Ryan?

  It's interesting to see the type of people that they're able to manipulate into their agenda and spread that type of gossip or rhetoric. But back to the cult within a cult, the sex slaves. So are these actual sex slaves, or are they voluntary?

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  What Keith Raniere would do, very similar to Scientology, is he would get information on people. Through the process of them being in NXIVM and confessing and emptying themselves to coaches that were over them. And this would become what he called collateral, in which he could threaten them, intimidate them, and say, "I know your secrets. If you don't cooperate, if you don't submit, I will use it against you." I mean, what kind of secrets are we talking about here? There would be compromising photographs,

• 1:25:55Speaker 03

  admissions to possible, you know, things that someone had done that were embarrassing, that were humiliating, things about their personal life, their business, whatever. Keith Raniere would gather this information, and it would become his file on these individuals. Now, it's important- So these people are so trusting that they're- Shaun, Shaun, you need to understand that this was a long process. Okay. That these women were in NXIVM for years. That India Oxenberg, who I met, Catherine Oxenberg's daughter,

• 1:26:37Speaker 03

  and I would work with Catherine Oxenberg to get India out of NXIVM. She was in NXIVM for years. She entered, she was like 18, 19 years old. And she was growing up as a young woman in NXIVM and isolated. Eventually, when Catherine and her then-husband Casper Van Deem left NXIVM, because they thought it was strange, that there was something wrong, and they left. And she wanted India out. And she struggled to get India out. And Keith Raniere would not let her out. And India would be one of the women who would be branded- Through this process, in this group,

• 1:27:24Speaker 03

  that was a cult within the cult. And the women were told that this was a women's empowerment group. And that there were women over women. And they did not realize that the ultimate authority was Keith Raniere. And that he was at the top of the pyramid lurking, running everything. In fact, when women were branded, they were often videotaped. I mean, this was like sadistic. So there was a woman who was a member of NXIVM. That was a doctor, a medical doctor. She since had her medical license revoked by the state of New York.

• 1:28:09Speaker 03

  But she would take the cauterizing iron and create the brand to a woman who was strapped to a gurney. It would take as long as 30 minutes or more. It would be incredibly painful. But this would be endured as a sign of, you know, empowerment supposedly. But in reality, Raniere would watch this. And in my opinion, you know, he was the ultimate misogynist. Wanting to humiliate, degrade women, control women. And he did this. And this went on unknown for a period of time.

• 1:28:55Speaker 03

  But because Sarah Edmondson came forward and Catherine Oxenburgh was there fighting for her daughter's life. All of this eventually came out publicly. The Southern District of New York in Brooklyn, the Justice Department prosecuted Keith Raniere. But it was after years of abuse that had escalated and escalated and escalated until finally he was exposed and brought to justice. And I and many other people had talked about this for more than a decade before he finally was arrested.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

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• 1:30:03Speaker 04

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• 1:30:34Shawn Ryan?

  How many women are we talking about here in this, in this, in this secret cult, inside the cult?

• 1:30:41Speaker 03

  Uh, this was a relatively, uh, small group of women. I don't know the exact amount, uh, but they were under Reneri's control, but they did not understand clearly that he was in control. They were led to believe this was a women's group. Nancy Salzman, who often would put herself out as this, uh, woman icon to be, to be emulated, uh, she would say, "Yeah, you know, I'm about women's empowerment." But in reality, it was about Keith Reneri and his sick desire to dominate and control and, and torture

• 1:31:24Speaker 03

  women, because that's what he was doing. And, and, and again, no matter how much money, no matter how much power he had, he always had to have more. And that is the downfall, in my experience over the years, of cult leaders. That was the downfall of Jim Jones, that was the downfall of David Koresh, that was the downfall of Keith Raniere, of Charles Diedrich, who started Synanon. No matter how much power they had, they wanted more and more, because these are deeply disturbed individuals, psychopaths, malignant narcissists.

• 1:32:05Speaker 03

  So they keep going and going and going, until finally, they just go over a bridge too far, and the authorities come in. What encourages me, that I've seen, in the United States and in other countries around the world, is that cults are being held accountable. They can believe whatever they want, but they cannot do whatever they wish in the name of those beliefs. So when they cross the line into criminality, that's when the authorities become involved. And I'm seeing more prosecutions of criminal cult leaders than I've seen in the past. A number of them have been convicted criminally, sent to prison.

• 1:32:49Speaker 03

  Tony Alamo, who headed Alamo Ministries in Arkansas, who raped women, who raped children, eventually was, was brought to justice and put in prison where he died. So there are a number of groups that have had to face the criminal courts. I just recently testified in Atlanta, in the trial of cult leader Allegio Bishop, who headed a group called Carbon Nation. And he would recruit people online, through Facebook, through Twitter, X. He would have videos on YouTube, and it was all done online, and he would, he would create

• 1:33:34Speaker 03

  a compound through an Airbnb that he would rent online. And then he, he would bring people to, at one point, Costa Rica, Mexico, then Panama. Subsequently, those countries deported him, they told him, "You are not welcome here, we don't want you here." He eventually ended up back in Atlanta, his hometown. Where he was prosecuted for unlawful imprisonment and rape. And I testified at his trial. And, and my role in my testimony was to help the jury understand how this went on for so long.

• 1:34:12Speaker 03

  And the women that were being brutalized and horribly mistreated did not come forward. Uh, the jury needed to get their head around that. That these women felt that what was going on was either their fault or nothing was wrong. Because that was the environment that they were embedded within, that Bishop controlled. And Bishop in court, of course, said, "Oh, I'm not guilty of anything. These women had consensual sex with me." No, they did not. He used coercive persuasion, thought reform techniques and force to take advantage of and exploit those women.

• 1:34:57Speaker 03

  And now he's doing life in prison without parole.

• 1:35:01Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of thought reform techniques would he use?

• 1:35:06Speaker 03

  What Bishop uses and what Rhenary used and what all cult leaders use is control of the environment, what Lifton calls milieu control. Then they hold out their program as a sacred science that cannot be questioned. Uh, then they use a kind of cult of confession to exhume and obtain information to leverage their power over people. Then they have, uh, another one of Lifton's criteria, which would be doctrine over person, the subordinating of everything you feel, everything you think to the group program. And step by step, inch by inch, the leader then

• 1:35:51Speaker 03

  becomes more and more in control of the people. And the key to breaking that control is taking a break from the group. Which is what I frequently will tell people. I'll say, "Can you take a break? Is there a legitimate reason to leave? Is there a legitimate reason to take a break? If you're in a group and there's no legitimate reason to leave, what does that mean?" I mean, because you can belong to a church or a club. And if you say, gee, I'm moving, I wanna go to a different church, or I can't be in this club anymore, my wife doesn't like it, or whatever. The group would say, fair enough, all the best. Stop by and see us sometime.

• 1:36:35Speaker 03

  But if you're in a group, and there's no legitimate reason to leave, and you're made to feel shame, and even fear over leaving, and the group is creating in your mind unreasonable fears about leaving, you're in trouble. What kind of fears would those be? Well, in NXIVM, that they would use the same verbiage that Scientology use. Renneri would tell people, if you doubt what I'm teaching, if you are thinking of leaving, you are a suppressive person, an SP. And that means you will never be a success in your life.

• 1:37:14Speaker 03

  You will fail at everything unless you can overcome that being a suppressive person. And Scientology, if it labels someone a suppressive person, that would be the reason to disconnect if you are a Scientologist from that person. A group that is more spiritually based can contort the Bible or a person's religious beliefs. They might say, for example, if you leave our organization, you will be damned, you will have no salvation. Salvation is predicated on belonging to our specific organized group, under our specific leader.

• 1:37:58Speaker 03

  And if you leave, there is no other church that can provide salvation for you. There is no other place that you can be protected. Our leader is your spiritual covering, your protection. And when you doubt our beliefs, when you... Think maybe we might not be right? That isn't even you thinking. That's Satan attacking your mind. So you have people that doubt because they see something that conflicts with their own morality, their own ethics. And they say, "Oh, that's not, that's not good. That must be Satan attacking my mind."

• 1:38:38Speaker 03

  And they are basically shutting down critical thinking by using techniques like this. So, so what we don't understand is how this happens. And, and let me just tell you this. I have deprogrammed five medical doctors. One was an orthopedic surgeon. Another was a highly accomplished anesthesiologist. This can happen to anyone, given the right set of circumstances. That is, no matter how educated you are, no matter how good you think your life has been, you may come at a vulnerable point in your life.

• 1:39:20Speaker 03

  And we all have vulnerable points in our lives where things aren't going well. And have the bad luck at that point to have someone you trust, someone you know, someone who's a coworker, an old friend, a relative, who says, "Hey, I know you're hurting. And this group that I'm involved in, this church, this organization, has ways to help you. Why don't you come with me to one of our meetings?" And bit by bit, step by step, the group brings you in. All the while lying, being deceptive, not disclosing what they're really all about,

• 1:40:02Speaker 03

  withholding the kind of information that you need to make a more informed decision. So this can happen to anyone. You know, there's not an Ivy League school that I have not sat with a graduate of, it seems to me. One man that I worked with was, he was doing his residency after graduating from Yale Medical School when I met him. And I only talked to him for less than an hour. And he ran away. A medical doctor in residency, graduate of Yale Medical School. Wow. He ran away in terror from his own father and mother.

• 1:40:46Speaker 03

  Who were there with his grandmother to do this intervention. Years later, he would leave the group and get in touch with me. But at that point, that Yale Medical School graduate was not able to critically think. And I also work with a man who had an MBA from Wharton. And he ended up deciding to stay in the cult. And I've worked with people that were Harvard graduates, graduates of Penn, all of the Ivy League schools, Cornell. Not long ago, I worked with a Cornell graduate who scored over 90 in the MCAT to be admitted into medical school.

• 1:41:31Speaker 03

  Very high score in the MCAT. Graduate of Cornell would be accepted in any medical school practically in the US. And he was going to go and live in an ashram in India and give everything up. And his parents brought me in, we did an intervention. This was about a year ago, and it was successful. And I can remember when his family was driving me to the airport. And for a while, we were alone. He was in the backseat and I was sitting in front of him in the car. And he said to me, Rick, you have no idea how bad it was. And he started to cry. And he said to me, they really had me.

• 1:42:15Speaker 03

  They really had me. And this was a straight A student that graduated with honors from Cornell. So if you think that somehow you're invincible, you're the one person that is not persuadable, that nothing can persuade you.

• 1:42:36Speaker 03

  You are not recognizing your own vulnerability to the extent that you have made yourself more vulnerable to a cult group or some person that wants to run a scam on you. And we see this with con men, multi-level marketing. I mean, look, there would be no advertising or negative political ads if people were not persuadable. So what these groups do is they create a kind of synthesis of coercive persuasion, thought reform, understood influence techniques that they knowingly use and they focus it like a laser on someone

• 1:43:20Speaker 03

  and they break them down, put them in a position where they're in distress or they believe that there's no way out. And the group then says, "We have the answer." And then they change them. And so what you have are people being changed without their informed consent by these groups and being exploited and taken advantage of, which varies from group to group. So what you see, and I would say this is the nucleus for the definition of a destructive cult, that all definitions intersect

• 1:44:03Speaker 03

  these three core characteristics, which is, number one, an absolute totalitarian leader that becomes an object of worship, that is the defining element and driving force of the group. And two, that leader knowingly uses thought reform and coercive persuasion to gain undue influence over his followers. And then, three, that leader uses the undue influence that he possesses to exploit and do harm to his followers. And you take those three things together, and I don't care what the name of the group is and what they say they believe. It could be pseudoscience, it could be politics,

• 1:44:47Speaker 03

  it could be self-improvement, it could be some kind of religious belief. But that is simply the window dressing, the facade. Beyond that mask are those three core characteristics. The absolute totalitarian leader.

• 1:45:05Speaker 03

  The use of thought reform and coercive persuasion to gain undue influence. And ultimately, that undue influence being used to take advantage of people, to exploit them, to do harm to them. And that may vary by degree from group to group, because there are some groups that are much worse than others. That doesn't mean that the group that is doing less harm is somehow benign, but we can recognize that not all groups are hunkering down for doomsday, not all groups sexually abuse their members or physically abuse them. There are some that are worse than others.

• 1:45:47Speaker 03

  But you take those three core characteristics: the all-powerful leader, the use of thought reform, and coercive persuasion, and the harm done. Because if there's no harm done, maybe the group is benign, but in my experience, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And so, that leader, that Keith Raniere, that Jim Jones, who has no accountability, will ultimately use that power in a destructive way.

• 1:46:20Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. You know, it's interesting, all these cult leaders seem to go, from what you're saying, off the same playbook. Where is that playbook? Where's the model from?

• 1:46:35Speaker 03

  I think that many cult leaders were themselves, at one time, either in a group that was cult-like, or they read about cults, or they read about thought reform and coercive persuasion. I mean, the books are available. I mean, you know, they can compile a kind of manual, and what you see is they copy from other cult leaders and incorporate and create a composite, like Keith Raniere did with NXIVM. Which was a composite of Scientology, Ayn Rand, well-established, large group awareness training techniques.

• 1:47:18Speaker 03

  So what you see over and over again with cult leaders is they don't reinvent the wheel. They just copy.

• 1:47:25Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:47:26Speaker 03

  And then they create a composite and then they have their own group. Uh, the, the names change, but the techniques are the same.

• 1:47:34Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, if they were in a cult and then started, would they have, would they have deprogrammed theirselves?

• 1:47:43Speaker 03

  It's interesting. You can, you can deprogram a cult member, but you cannot deprogram a cult leader. A cult leader is inherently typically a psychopath, a sociopath, a malignant narcissist. They were quite literally, it seems to me, born that way. I mean, Keith Renary was terrorizing children when he was 10, according to, to reports and interviews. So it's almost like these people are hardwired.

• 1:48:19Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:48:19Speaker 03

  You, you cannot deprogram them. Uh, and, and you cannot deprogram someone, Sean, that has sincerely held beliefs. So, so if we see someone that we don't agree with, uh, maybe we don't agree with their politics. Maybe we don't agree with their religious point of view. Uh, it's, it's not fair to just say, oh, you're brainwashed. You need to be deprogrammed. Because we need to realize that people have sincerely held beliefs and that even though we may not agree with those beliefs, that doesn't mean that they're brainwashed. Instead, we should respect the differences that other people have

• 1:49:03Speaker 03

  and, and recognize how thought reform, coercive persuasion works to the extent that we can say, well, did that person arrive at those beliefs through a process where that was just their family? That was their life? Uh, they truly believed this? Or were they in a totalitarian controlling group that used thought reform and coercive persuasion to bend them to the will of the leadership? I mean, these are different things. So, so I think a lot of times people use the word cult haphazardly to just denigrate some group or, or individual that they don't appreciate.

• 1:49:48Speaker 03

  Saying, "Oh, you're in a cult," or "That's a cult." And there is a range of meaning to the word cult. I mean, there are rock groups that have cult followings. There are products that are cult branded and so on. But when we use the word cult to describe an organization, typically, we're talking about a destructive cult. And for that, they need to have those three core characteristics to be defined as a destructive cult.

• 1:50:19Shawn Ryan?

  What's the fastest you've seen one of these cults, um, hit traction? Growed and it?

• 1:50:27Speaker 03

  Now with the internet, it's so fast. I mean, in, in the old days, when I started in the Stone Age, before the internet and social media, groups literally had to press the flesh. They had to show up typically on college campuses or, or parks and malls and, and recruit people face to face. Now, people are recruited through social media online. And anybody that has an electronic device that accesses the internet is a potential target. So, a group can, can, can just metastasize online so fast, it, it can make your head spin.

• 1:51:10Speaker 03

  Allegio Bishop, who I testified against in Atlanta, who's now in prison, he had over 30,000 followers on Twitter alone. And there are people that have been called cult leaders that have hundreds of thousands of followers online. And then they cull from those followers to create a, a deeper, committed group. And, and you can use social media to do that. Uh, there was, uh, one, uh, couple that I dealt with, uh, in the Midwest. Uh, the wife was an attorney. The husband had an MBA and worked remotely from home.

• 1:51:52Speaker 03

  For a Fortune 500 company. And he was recruited online, indoctrinated through videos on YouTube, and the wife didn't even know it. Wow. It was happening while she was at work. He had gone through some hardships. A very close friend that he regarded as a virtual brother had died suddenly in his 30s from a heart attack. I mean, he was just gone. There was incredible grief. The husband dealt with this. And eventually, he found answers, he thought, online. And keep in mind, Sean, that based on the algorithms that are online, if you find something and you identify it on YouTube

• 1:52:37Speaker 03

  or on Facebook or on Twitter, the algorithm is going to push more of the same to you, and you're going to go down the rabbit hole. And that's what happened to this husband. And he became totally indoctrinated in a group called Israelites United in Christ, led by a former police officer in New York. And this is a kind of racial identity group that believes that African Americans are the new Israel and that white people are devils. And the husband was recruited into this, MBA and all.

• 1:53:22Speaker 03

  And of course, this became a point of friction with his wife. And then she brought me in, and I did work with him for about a day. But then the group became involved. He would not unplug completely from them and give himself a break to discuss things with his wife and family. And so the group coached him, and he would not continue beyond the first day. Man. But he was recruited in a home office in a major city in the Midwest. And his wife had no idea what was happening. And they eventually would divorce because she could not accept the hate. The hate beliefs of this group.

• 1:54:07Speaker 03

  So, it can happen to anyone and the way that it happens now increasingly is online. And it's being, and it's happening through social media. Uh, for example, you know, the, the so-called TikTok cult. That's been exposed by Netflix. Uh, that group has a following online. Members of this group called the Shekinah Church are, are controlled uh, by ultimately this leader, Robert Shin. And as a result, they work for him, they live in group housing, they attend his church, which by the way is by invitation only.

• 1:54:51Speaker 03

  So just a regular person cannot attend the church. You have to be invited, which is not the typical church. So we're not talking about the typical groups. But what you see in the Shekinah church is again milieu control. So Shin has them living together. Uh, reinforcing his, his, his teachings, reinforcing his control. And they work together and people cannot attend their church unless invited. And so he's controlling the environment.

• 1:55:28Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of stuff goes on in the, in, in group housing?

• 1:55:31Speaker 03

  Uh, just basically people are all indoctrinated, they're all like-minded. And so if someone were to say, "This is crazy. We're, we're working for very little, we don't have health insurance, uh, we're being exploited." Some would, would say, "Oh, that, that's not true. Uh, this is a holy and wonderful thing that we're in. And our, our leader, uh, you know, he's a wonderful man and this is a great church. And how can you possibly think that?" Now, outside of the group, if he were to say that, or someone were to say that, someone would say, "Well, those are valid concerns."

• 1:56:14Speaker 03

  But in the group environment, where they're living together, working together, reinforcing the indoctrination of the leader, they're not able to think outside of the box. And that's how these groups control, uh, the mind and control people.

• 1:56:31Shawn Ryan?

  How many of these, I mean, how many requests do you get for deprogramming?

• 1:56:37Speaker 03

  Well, every year I'll do interventions throughout the year. And some of those interventions are with people that are in abusive, controlling relationships. But most of them are people that are in groups called cults. And I have traveled all over the world. I've done interventions in Europe, in Asia, in Australia. I've worked in every state within the United States except for Wyoming. I've yet to do any work in Wyoming. I think Dick Cheney will probably say, "Good." You know, and Liz Cheney will probably say, "Good, I'm glad Wyoming is not on your list." But every other state I've worked in.

• 1:57:21Speaker 03

  And I've done hundreds of interventions. And all an intervention really is, Sean, is it's a process of educating someone about what is a destructive cult, defining that. And then, second, how does thought reform and coercive persuasion really work? And explaining that. And then, the third, what information has this group withheld from you that you deserve to know to make a more informed decision about continuing? And finally, why did your family bring me here? Why are they concerned about you?

• 1:58:05Speaker 03

  So this discussion can take three or four days. And you ask the person, "Can you take a break? Can you do this for your family?" Three or four days, just take a break. And if this group is everything they say they are, and they're really a great group, they won't have a problem with you taking a break for three or four days. And then you can unplug, think about these things, and ask yourself, "Does it make any sense to me? How do I feel about all of this? Why is my family so concerned?" And then, at the end, you decide what you wish to do.

• 1:58:47Speaker 03

  So you can continue with the group, you can continue to take a break, or you can decide to leave. About seven out of 10 of the people that I work with will decide that they're not going back.

• 1:59:01Shawn Ryan?

  I would imagine there's quite a bit of pushback at the beginning.

• 1:59:04Speaker 03

  Oh, heck yeah. You know, the first thing is, why did you do this? Because the intervention regarding cults is typically very much like an alcohol or a drug intervention. You don't tell the person there's going to be an intervention. So it's a surprise. And initially, they may say, well, how could you do this? You should have told me. You know, and the answer is, well, if we had told you, would you share that with someone in the group? Would you tell the leader? What would they do? Would they say it's okay for us to have this process?

• 1:59:44Speaker 03

  This analysis of the group apart from them? Would they let you participate? Would they insist on coaching you? I mean, what would really happen? And then, if the person is honest, and they most often are, they would say, well, yeah, probably they wouldn't like that. And so I guess I understand why you did this the way you did. But I'm kind of shocked. But then the family will say, well, look, we love you. We really, really care about what's happening in your life. We care about you. We love you. And we wouldn't do this if we didn't feel there was a reason.

• 2:00:28Speaker 03

  So would you trust us? You've known us all your life. You know we love you. So all we're asking you to do is give us some time. We're not telling you that you have to leave the group ultimately. What we're asking you is, will you give us three days, maybe, to think about things, to talk about things? And if you'll do that, that will ease our concerns and will feel like that is okay, that we've addressed what we're worried about. And usually, the person will say yes.

• 2:01:10Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. You know, I've, I've seen a couple of things in surrounding areas here. One of them, I wa- I remember when I first moved to Tennessee, me and my wife went to this restaurant. And it was the, it was in this place called Pulaski, Tennessee. And we went into this restaurant and it was, um, I don't know any other way to describe it other than very, very hippie-like. And it was a lot of like falafel, vegetarian, stuff like that.

• 2:01:54Shawn Ryan?

  But that's not what I'm getting at. What I got, what I'm getting at is the, the minute we entered and it was, we were looking, it was before we actually moved here, we were looking for a place to live. And that was, that was the, we had checked this town out and this was the only restaurant still open and we walked in and immediately it was, there was just a weird vibe in there.

• 2:02:16Speaker 03

  Was it called the Yellow Deli?

• 2:02:19Shawn Ryan?

  Yes.

• 2:02:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's the 12 tribes. That's a cult group.

• 2:02:24Shawn Ryan?

  What is that?

• 2:02:24Speaker 03

  That owns a chain of delis. It was originally a group started by a guy by the name of Gene Spriggs in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And they believe that they are the chosen new Israel and their leader is the prophet. They called him the prophet Yone. Well, Gene Spriggs died rich. I mean, he had a yacht, he had multiple homes. I mean, he lived the good life, but his people would flip real estate for him. They would rehabilitate homes in upstate New York and, and, and around the country. And then that would add to the group's coffers. And they had a chain of restaurants called The Yellow Deli.

• 2:03:08Speaker 03

  And they also had cafes that serve what I think they call it mate, which is a South American kind of tea or coffee or something. And this would be the way that Jean Spriggs made money. Because these people would work for basically nothing but room and board. So they would be living in group houses that would have designated leaders. And they would be there within this community. And they would work at the cafes for the real estate business or rehabilitating or doing whatever Spriggs wanted for nothing but room and board.

• 2:03:53Speaker 03

  No health insurance, no social security, nothing. And then they'd be raising children in the group. And these children would not be well treated. And they would not be schooled past the age of 13. And they would be beaten. Spriggs would have children beaten with like balloon sticks that they would dip in resin and then whip the children. One mother who hired me, she, her name is Lori Johnson. And she lived in upstate New York. She became involved with her husband in the 12 tribes. He really was devoted.

• 2:04:37Speaker 03

  And she began to have doubts because she saw how hard it was on her kids. She had two little children. And she wanted to leave. Her husband wouldn't leave. Divorce, custody battle. Lori gets custody. Husband disappears with the two children. It took nine years before the FBI found those kids. I did a Jerry Springer show. Where were the kids? They were hidden within the community in Florida. And no one knew where they were. And Lori had been without her children for nine years when they recovered them. Her husband was arrested. And the FBI returned the kids and I would work with those children.

• 2:05:22Speaker 03

  Then, I think one was 14 and the other was maybe 12, thereabouts, minor kids. But they had not been with their mother for years. And that was because of this group that owned the Yellow Dellies, 12 tribes headed by Jean Spriggs. And I would appear with Lori on a very early Jerry Springer show. And in that show Lori would show pictures of her kids, tell her story. And leaders from 12 tribes also appeared on the show with me. And I would then talk with them at the hotel that we were put up in.

• 2:06:02Speaker 03

  And I would say to them, "Why don't you guys just give Lori back her kids? And then people will think that you're not so bad, that you're not a bad cult. Because you're being sensitive and caring about this mother who wants to be reunited with her children." And they would repeatedly just say to me, "Oh, well, you know, we don't know where the kids are. We don't know where they are." And then they would make outrageous accusations that Lori was immoral, that she was a harlot, whatever. Really, totally baseless. But the point is, they would not come clean.

• 2:06:44Speaker 03

  And eventually, the children were found in the community. And when I talked to the children, they most definitely knew. They told me that Jean Spriggs specifically knew where they were. And that other leaders in the group knew where they were. And that they were deliberately hidden from their mother for years. Wow. Is that, so is that whole organization? The organization is still going. I'm not clear as to who's really running it. I mean, it may evolve and change, but it's been a very authoritarian, very destructive group for many years. And do you know, Sean, at one time, they had contracts with Robert

• 2:07:29Speaker 03

  Redford Sundance Catalog, Trader Joe's, and Estee Lauder to do packaging in regards to products. But when it was exposed, and I had a part in that, there were former members who told me about these sweatshops where these members of the group were working. And unbeknownst to these companies, they were being, their product was being packaged and produced through this often child labor, illegal labor. Well, that was eventually exposed, and they were raided by New York labor authorities, and those contracts were

• 2:08:12Speaker 03

  shut down. But Spriggs used to use companies like Estee Lauder, Trader Joe's, Robert Redford Sundance Catalog, to make money off of his people. He was basically selling them as like slave labor. And they were working under extraordinarily difficult conditions, often unsafe. And so they were raided. And after that, one of the leaders of the group, Eddie Weissman, who I appeared with on this Jerry Springer Show, he called me on the phone, and he said, "You know, Rick, you're a son of a bitch, you know. You're so bad. You

• 2:08:56Speaker 03

  realize the money that you've cost the families in 12 tribes, and they don't have the money because of the raid, and you're responsible for that. You should be ashamed of yourself." And I said, "Look, Eddie, come on, give me a break. You and your wife, Jeannie, are living the good life, because you're leaders. And you were working children illegally. Now, the Bible teaches that you're to obey the laws of the land." That you're to submit to civil authority. That's what is taught in the New Testament. And you willfully went against the law. And you did it for what? So that you and Jeannie could live better? So that Gene Spriggs can have multiple homes?

• 2:09:41Speaker 03

  Don't come to me and tell me that I'm the bad guy. You're the one that broke the law. And somewhere along the line, I heard a click. And that was the end of him listening to what I had to say.

• 2:09:53Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:09:54Speaker 03

  But, but that group, whenever you go to a yellow deli, whenever you have one of their mates, you are contributing to the 12 tribes cult.

• 2:10:08Shawn Ryan?

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• 2:10:49Shawn Ryan?

  That is, I'm so glad I brought this up. That was about seven years ago. We sat down, our waiter came up and it was immediate. I was like, something's going on in here. And my wife picked up on it immediately as well. So we started, we started questioning the waiter and asking, I can't even remember what the conversation until, but I do, this is what I remember. He would always refer to the leaders of the cult as the authority. The authority's not going to like this. The authority wants us to do this. And he, he was talking about all these different restaurants. And, and I'd asked him, you know, how do you know where you're going?

• 2:11:34Shawn Ryan?

  He goes, well, the authority lets us know where we're going. And I, he would go, you know, get another drink or whatever. And I'd look at my wife like. The authority? Like, what the hell is this? What's going on in here? And, uh, and, um, we never went back.

• 2:11:53Speaker 03

  You know, I've, I've heard their food is good, their mates are good, but I wouldn't give them a penny. And look, I, I feel great sympathy for the people that in my mind are trapped within that group. Because you have to realize the children were born into that group. There's all generation that was raised in 12 tribes. And I've spoken to many of them, including Eddie Weissman's son, who fled the group. And for years felt shame and sadness because they felt, well, they were told by the group, you're turning your back on God. You're, you're a sinner, you're evil. And, and the kids that I deprogrammed

• 2:12:38Speaker 03

  would, would contact me at one point and say, you know, our dad is still in the group and, and we want to spend time with him. But the only way that he will agree to spend time with us is if we come to group activities. And whenever we do that, they're just bombarding us with, you know, manipulative talk about how we need to rejoin the group and be in the group. And that's not what we want. And so I told the kids, I said, look, you know, you can tell your dad, you know, dad, we love you. We love you. We want a relationship with you, but we do not love 12 tribes. And we do not want 12 tribes.

• 2:13:23Speaker 03

  But we want you. And we are willing to meet with you and spend time with you. But we don't want to deal with the group and we don't want to hear about the group. And in fairness, we're not going to criticize the group. We just want to spend quality time with you, dad. And as far as I know, he would never agree to that. And their, his relationship with the children. Ended. And so, so there are children that leave groups like this. And it's very, very hard on them because their, their family shuns them. They, they don't know people outside of the group.

• 2:14:04Speaker 03

  They may not have an education because the group didn't want them to. And so they're not prepared to work in the outside world and to adapt. Many of them though have, have construction skills and certain things that they can get a job. But um.

• 2:14:24Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Sounds very similar to, to my editor, the guy that edits the show. He talks about, I talk to him all the time about this stuff. And um, he does, he talks about when he left Jehovah's Witnesses. Is that what he said, Jehovah's Witnesses? When he left, it's he, I mean, he still says, he's like, it's like, I'm still trying to learn how to live like, he's a normal life. He's, he's, he's like, I've never celebrated a birthday. I've never celebrated a Christmas. He's any of that stuff. And he's, there's, he's like, there's just so many things that, that I don't know that are normal in society that I, that I have.

• 2:15:08Shawn Ryan?

  I, I, he, he's still trying to figure out what's normal and abnormal and, and it's um. Wow, wow.

• 2:15:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, but here's the, here's the, the, the interesting thing is that so many people that leave these high control groups blame themselves. They say, you know, I failed. It's, it's a shame on me. And they haven't sorted it out. They haven't unpacked it. And so what I would urge any of them to do is I'll plug my book, read my book, Cults Inside Out, and understand that you are not alone. That there are many, many other people that have gone through this experience and that they've survived and that you need to unpack it.

• 2:15:58Speaker 03

  You need to know that your group was very much like these other groups. And if these other groups are called cults, what does that mean about your group? And is it really your fault that you left? Or is it the group's fault? That they had unreasonable expectations and demands that they made? And that they were too controlling? And that they were suffocating you? And so you had to leave? Much like a woman who's leaving an abusive-controlling relationship will feel like, "Well, I can't leave my husband because he loves me and I have to be loyal to him and it's my fault. I'm not being a good enough wife.

• 2:16:43Speaker 03

  I'm not doing enough. It's on me." And of course, the abusive-controlling partner is saying, "You're right. It's your fault. It's not about me. It's you. You aren't measuring up." And very much like a cult, that abusive-controlling husband will isolate the wife, estranging her from old friends, moving her maybe to a new area where she's separated from family, and kind of cocooning her and controlling her interactions, her social life. If you're in a situation like that, it's very hard to understand what to do

• 2:17:26Speaker 03

  because you have this sense of loyalty to your spouse or to the group and you feel like they are right. And if you have been raised in a group and your parents belong to the group, even more so, you feel like, "Well, my parents, I love them and they're in this organization. It must be good. It must be right." And so you feel like there is no legitimate reason to leave. And you have unreasonable fears about leaving. I mean, I'll have women talk to me about abusive-controlling relationships and say...

• 2:18:11Speaker 03

  What sounds like crazy. I mean, they'll say, "No one will ever love me like he loves me. I'll never find love again in my life." I'm so fortunate that I found this person. I'll never, ever find anyone like that ever again. And I'll look at the woman and say, "You're very young. You're highly accomplished. Not to objectify you, but you're attractive. You can find someone else. But because of your spouse and the way that you've been manipulated, you've been led to believe that you can't. And that's wrong.

• 2:18:54Speaker 03

  And the way that you've been treated is wrong. And frequently, the women that I have worked with have been subjected to physical violence. They've been beat up repeatedly. And people will blame them. People will say, "Oh, she went back to him. She deserves what she gets." But very few people unwind what has happened to this woman and understand it in the terms of how the abusive controlling partner has manipulated her. And I devoted a whole chapter in my book to abusive controlling relationships and describe how I did an intervention with a young woman to get her out of such a situation.

• 2:19:38Speaker 03

  So there is a correlation between abusive controlling relationships and cults. And I think it's important to know that and to have understanding and really sympathy for the people that have been victimized.

• 2:19:55Shawn Ryan?

  I find it very interesting how, when you're talking about... Mothers and fathers who are giving up their kids inside these cults, or when we're talking about the Yellow Deli Crew, and these people are working for what, room and board and that's it?

• 2:20:18Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 2:20:18Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, how do you get a graduate from, I mean, how do you get an anesthesiologist, who's making half a million a year, maybe more, maybe millions a year, to join a cult and give all of that up for room and board? I mean, what does that conversation look like?

• 2:20:45Speaker 03

  Well, now, the doctors, in fairness, the doctors that I work with were in different groups, not in the Yellow Deli.

• 2:20:53Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:20:53Speaker 03

  But I will tell you this, I was lecturing at a university, and it was in upstate New York, and a young woman came up to me at the end of my lecture, and said, "My mother is in the 12 tribes." And she gave every penny, and this is standard practice, in the 12 tribes. You join, you give them everything you have. Your bank account, your house, your car, everything. And that greatly increased, you know, the net value of 12 tribes and the money that they control, which I'm sure is in the millions of dollars, though no one knows exactly.

• 2:21:35Speaker 03

  And this girl is talking to me, this young woman, and she has tears in her eyes, and she says, "You know, my grandmother left an inheritance for my mother with the explicit understanding that my mother would pay for my college education with some of the money. But she's given it all to the 12 tribes." And I came to her and I said, "Mom, you're brainwashed and you're in a cult." And she, of course, rejected that. And I said, "What would you have me do? You have given away all of our family's money, all of Grandma's money, and I have nothing to go to college." And the mother said, "Well, join the 12 tribes,

• 2:22:19Speaker 03

  and you can be with me and everything will be fine." So why did the mother do it? She did it because the 12 tribes convinced her that they were the only place where God was. The only place where God was able to be a part of your life in a true and meaningful way. And that this would lead to salvation. This would lead to a fruitful spiritual life. And this is what separates the 12 tribes as a cult from mainstream Christianity. And it's the only place.

• 2:23:02Speaker 03

  No other Christians are right. No other church is right. No other pastor is preaching authentic beliefs according to the Bible. Only us. And so the mother felt, I am giving all this to God. I'm giving it all to the one and only organization that is true to God. And my daughter should join as well because this is the truth. I mean, that is the level of indoctrination and control that these groups have over the thinking of individuals that are involved. And it's very difficult to unwind that kind of programming.

• 2:23:47Speaker 03

  But that is an answer to your question. Why would someone do that? And in the case of the doctors, I know there were two doctors I worked with that were in a particular church called Victory Church in Grand Forks, North Dakota, that was run by this couple. And it was a total... Just a personality cult in which they had no accountability and they controlled all these people and lived off of hundreds of people that were in this church called Victory Church.

• 2:24:26Speaker 03

  And I would eventually be hired by two, first one doctor who had doubts and then I would help him and then I would deprogram his children and then he would convince the other doctor to invite me to his home and then I would work with him and his family as well. And then they in turn convinced a cardiologist who was also in the group to leave. So this was kind of a domino effect and eventually I would do an Oprah Winfrey show with former members of Victory Church and Oprah Winfrey would expose the group nationally and eventually

• 2:25:08Speaker 03

  it would crumble and cease to exist. And I have to give Oprah some credit because the group sued Oprah Winfrey and tried to keep her from airing that program. And Oprah Winfrey said, "No way, I am airing the program." And actually the lawsuit attracted more attention as lawsuits like that often do and the show aired and it was the undoing of that Victory Church in Grand Force, North Dakota.

• 2:25:45Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know John of God?

• 2:25:51Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, that's the Canadian cult leader.

• 2:25:56Shawn Ryan?

  Is Oprah involved in that one?

• 2:25:58Speaker 03

  I, you know, you know, it's interesting. I've done the Oprah show a couple of times and Oprah has done some really good work regarding the, the one show that I did involved Jehovah's Witnesses and which she exposed some of their excesses. The other show was about this group called Victory Church in North Dakota, which ended that church effectively. But then Oprah has done other shows where she brings on people of very questionable backgrounds. For example, James Arthur Ray.

• 2:26:38Speaker 03

  Who led these training seminars. And three people died in one of his training seminars. And he was a featured guest on Oprah. And largely traded on that to promote himself and promote his seminars. Uh, which he became a millionaire selling. And so Oprah at times has been involved with um, kind of fringey. You know, new agey um, gurus. Who end up not being so good. John of God would be another example. Who is, what is John of God? John of God is of, kind of a faith healer.

• 2:27:21Speaker 03

  Someone who claims that he can heal people. And he's now being accused of sexually exploiting and abusing women. And so uh, to the extent that uh, Oprah Winfrey thought that John of God was of God and a man of God. Uh, you know, he traded on her show. And exposure through her show to promote himself. And I think Oprah should do a kind of mea culpa. Where she gets on her show, or does some show.

• 2:28:04Speaker 03

  Where she says, you know, at times I've made mistakes. I've had people on that turned out to not be really that good. And I need to apologize. I mean, I don't think that she was aware of how bad these people were. And they would later be exposed. But I think it, it, it, it means that perhaps she should have been more reluctant to feature them and to promote them the way that she did. I mean, I speak from the standpoint that I was an expert consultant. Uh, in regards to the prosecution of James Arthur Ray. So I worked with the prosecutor.

• 2:28:47Speaker 03

  Eventually Ray would be convicted for negligent homicide. And even though three people died, he spent two, three years in jail. And that was about it. And as far as I know, he's back out selling his seminar training again. Wow, wow.

• 2:29:07Shawn Ryan?

  When it comes to, back to, you know, giving up everything for peanuts. Let's talk about, I mean, what are the conversations like when a woman gives up her children in a cult?

• 2:29:21Speaker 03

  Well, the most-

• 2:29:22Shawn Ryan?

  That has to be some serious program to overtake Mother Nature's instinct of, "These are my kids."

• 2:29:30Speaker 03

  The most terrible situation I ever dealt with where a parent gave up a child was Carrie Jewell. I met her. When she was 10 years old, her mother gave her to David Koresh, the leader of the Waco Davidians, and he raped her. And she would eventually testify in a congressional hearing when she was 14 about what happened. And I remember doing the Phil Donahue Show with Carrie during the standoff. And we were all talking about whether or not David Koresh would ever surrender and come out from the compound, which he never did.

• 2:30:11Speaker 03

  And at the time, he asked each person on the panel, "How do you think this is going to end?" And when he got to Carrie Jewell, she said, "They're all going to die.

• 2:30:23Speaker 03

  And I've made my peace. My mother will never come out." And I was shocked, but she was right. She was absolutely right. And I think that her father, David Jewell, who was a very brave man and who rescued his daughter from the compound before the raid and before the standoff occurred. And she was safely with him in his custody when all that happened.

• 2:30:53Speaker 03

  That she knew, and David Jewell knew, just how totally brainwashed the people were in that compound. Because this woman, I'm sure, was a loving mother, but she was so programmed by David Koresh to believe that he was the seed, the Davidic seed, the Messiah, that she thought that giving her child to the Messiah was a godly thing to do.

• 2:31:24Speaker 03

  And they were told that he was planting the seed of David in these victims that he raped. And I think one of the reasons why he did not surrender was he knew that when they did DNA testing, they would establish that he was a pedophile and that he had sex with minor children and that they had children when they were children.

• 2:31:49Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man. Can we, wow, can we go into the Waco incident a little bit? What was that cult about?

• 2:32:01Speaker 03

  First of all, the Waco Davidians, for a long time, were a totally peaceful benign group, kind of unusual. They followed the teachings of a man named Victor Howdeff. And after Howdeff died, his widow took over, and after her, a man named George Roden took over, and after that, his wife Lois Roden took over. And for years and years, they were peaceful. And they lived outside of Waco on a kind of ranch area on the outskirts of Waco. Then came Vernon Howell, later named David Koresh.

• 2:32:41Speaker 03

  And he became very close to Lois Roden at the end of her life, and then he took over. And that's when the trouble started. Because he tried to kill her son, George Roden. And he was tried for attempted murder, but a hung jury was the end result. And the prosecutor said, "That guy is going to be trouble." And he went back to the compound, he was stockpiling weapons, and unbeknownst to me, he was also raping children. And abusing women in the group. That would later come out.

• 2:33:23Speaker 03

  So the BATF then did an investigation. And I had deprogrammed one of the Waco Davidians. David Koresh had sent him on a kind of trip to get some money and do some fundraising in California. And his brother retained me and I did an intervention and he never came back. And he still lives in California and he has a family. But he was a witness to illegal weapons and stockpiling that was going on inside the Davidian compound. David Koresh was manufacturing guns. He was converting semi-automatic weapons to fully automatic.

• 2:34:06Speaker 03

  He was breaking the law regarding firearms. And so the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated him. They called me. They interviewed the young man that I deprogrammed. It was their interview with that young man that I deprogrammed. And in part, his testimony that led to an affidavit that was then the basis for a warrant for the search of the Davidian compound and a warrant for the arrest of David Koresh. So the BATF went there. I was shocked at the way they went. I mean, we had warned them about how many weapons and how huge the stockpile was and

• 2:34:48Speaker 03

  how militant the group was and how totally, really psychopath like David Koresh was. And the BATF just raided the group in a way that shocked me. I mean, they just went in like it was any, any normal raid, which it wasn't. And of course, it was a gun battle. People were killed. Davidians died. Federal agents were killed in the process. And then they created a perimeter around the compound and there was a 51-day standoff.

• 2:35:29Speaker 03

  Fifty-one days. Fifty-one days. And during that time, I worked for CBS News and I was interviewed by, uh, by the FBI and by their hostage negotiator that they had. But the problem that the FBI had at that time, which I don't think they have now, because they learned from Waco and subsequent, uh, situations, uh, that this was not a conventional hostage situation, that the Davidians were not hostages, they were programmed, they were completely and totally subservient to David Koresh, and that that dynamic needed to be understood.

• 2:36:14Speaker 03

  And so, much of what I suggested to the FBI, uh, they did not do some of the things I suggested that they do, they did. For example, uh, David Koresh, who said, "I am Jesus, I am the Messiah." Uh, they said, "Well, Jesus loved children." And he said, "Suffer not the little children, they come unto me." So would you let some of the children out? And David Koresh did let out 21 children. And, uh, he let out some of the elderly people, uh, people that he thought were essentially a burden or expendable. Uh, he kept most of the Davidians in.

• 2:36:54Speaker 03

  Now, then, the FBI set up these big loudspeakers around the, uh, compound, and they would keep the Davidians up at night, they would blast them with rock and roll music, rabbit screaming, things that probably fit within the typical hostage negotiator playbook. But they did not understand, they were dealing with a cult, they were dealing with cult members. And what I suggested was that they give them every opportunity to get sleep, to be rested, so they could think more clearly, and then maybe during the, the, the nine to five hours,

• 2:37:38Speaker 03

  bring in family and let the family talk to their loved ones through those loudspeakers, because David Koresh was controlling all communication in that compound.

• 2:37:49Speaker 03

  Uh, when families wanted to visit someone, he, you had to go to visitation. Wow. In the compound, and there would be Koresh or a delegated person that would be monitoring your visit with your family member. There were only two phones in the compound. Uh, one was an old gigantic mobile phone, uh, hard to believe how big those were, and the other was a hard line. He controlled both. He listened to all conversations. So what I suggested to the FBI, and they did not do this, was use the loudspeakers so the

• 2:38:29Speaker 03

  families can speak to their loved ones. Uh, kind of like, almost like radio-free Davidian, you know, where there could be communication that he did not control. They did not do that. And then I also told them, please don't act aggressively on the perimeter, because that, that, you know, basically validates his narrative, that you're Satan, that you are the army of Satan come to attack the people of God. What you want to do is make yourselves as peaceful and, and non-threatening as possible to under, undercut his narrative,

• 2:39:10Speaker 03

  which, which they did not do. In fairness to the FBI, they had never dealt with a cult like this before, and it was their first experience, and they learned from it painfully. Uh, but in the final analysis, I don't think it was going to end any way other than it ended, which is how David Koresh wanted it to end. And he did not want to live. He was like Jim Jones. He wanted to go out with his followers.

• 2:39:41Speaker 03

  On his throne, king to the bitter end. That's how David Koresh left the world. Ruling over his flock in the compound. Just like Jim Jones at Jonestown. Did you go into Jim Jones? Yeah, Jim Jones was at one time a very popular figure in San Francisco. He was considered one of the leading lights of social action in the Bay Area. He was very connected to the Democratic Party, Democratic leaders. Governor Jerry Brown, Assemblyman Willie Brown. When Rosalynn Carter visited San Francisco, she did a photo op with Jim Jones.

• 2:40:25Speaker 03

  So Jim Jones was a kind of icon. And the People's Temple was a huge church with thousands and thousands of members. But no one really knew what was going on inside. And so ultimately, what happened is that people that left started to talk about the abuse they experienced, children being beaten brutally, people being exploited financially. And people came out of the church and they talked to the media. And so Jim Jones became more and more paranoid. Again, a malignant narcissist, a psychopath. And then he decided, I'm leaving the Bay Area.

• 2:41:10Speaker 03

  Because the press is against me, the media is against me. I used to be a celebrity. Now they say bad things about me. I'm going to pack up and leave. And so he took about a thousand of his most devoted followers. And he moved to English-speaking Guyana in South America, in the middle of the jungle. They carved out a little community that they called Jonestown. He controlled all communications, all social interaction. People were totally isolated. Now comes families of those thousand people. And in particular, they approached Congressman Leo J. Ryan.

• 2:41:54Speaker 03

  And they said, "Please help us. We're very worried about our family members, our children, our grandchildren that are in Jonestown." Leo J. Ryan then gets Jim Jones to agree for him to come on a fact-finding trip with his staff to Jonestown. He comes there. At first, things go fairly well. Then people are passing notes to Ryan and his staff. "Take me with you. I want to get out of here. Bad things are happening in here that you don't know." And so Jones ultimately agrees to let some of these people go with Ryan.

• 2:42:34Speaker 03

  And then he recognizes that they're going to tell what's really going on in Jonestown. And so he dispatches his security force, and they murder everyone. Some people survive. Jackie Speer, one of Leo J. Ryan's staff members, who would later become a United States Congressman, from his very district, was shot five times and almost bled out. But she miraculously survived. Other people survived as well, but Leo J. Ryan was killed. And Jim Jones knew, "This is the end. They're gonna come for me." And he was right.

• 2:43:19Speaker 03

  The authorities were coming from Georgetown in Guyana for him. And so he mixed these tubs of punch, and they were laced with cyanide. And he encouraged, insisted, that all of his people take the cyanide.

• 2:43:41Speaker 03

  And so that's what, when the phrase came, "You drank the Kool-Aid." Because people would say, "Well, it was Kool-Aid and the people in Jonestown drank the Kool-Aid and they died." And so if you, the expression "you drank the Kool-Aid" is an allusion to Jonestown and the idea that you're brainwashed, that you're not thinking clearly. So, many of the people in Jonestown were forced to drink the Kool-Aid. They didn't have a choice. The children, there were hundreds of them. They were all murdered. There were people that were shot that were trying to run away. So it was a massacre and almost a thousand people died. Wow.

• 2:44:25Speaker 03

  In one day, in 1978. And that was Jonestown. And that was really the beginning of people saying, "Well, what about these cults? What's going on?" Because people started to write about them and write about Jim Jones. Of course Jonestown came before me, because I started my work in 82. So that was four years after Jonestown. But I remember Jonestown and I also remember Charlie Manson. And I remember Patty Hearst, who was abducted by a cult called the Symbionese Liberation Army. So cults were becoming known before Jonestown,

• 2:45:08Speaker 03

  but at Jonestown, that was the shock that really woke everybody up, that this could be very, very bad. And of course, since Jonestown, there have been a number of cult tragedies. There, another is the movement for the restoration of the Ten Commandments in Uganda. In 2000, the leader of that group, Joseph Kebwe Terre, ordered the deaths of over 700 of his followers. And right now, there's a man named Paul Mckenzie in Kenya, and he is responsible for the starvation deaths of over 400 of his followers, many children.

• 2:45:54Speaker 03

  Why? Because he said it's the end of the world. That's what Joseph Kibbutz Tere said. That's what Paul Mackenzie said. We have to get ready, it's the end. And the end it was for their followers. 750 in Uganda, 400 in Kenya. And then, of course, we know about the suicide of the people of the solar temple, which was in Europe. And those were the followers of Luc Giray. They all died in what could have been a murder or a suicide. There were almost 100 of them. And then there was Heaven's Gate. Around the same time in the 90s,

• 2:46:37Speaker 03

  that 39 people in a house rented by their leader, you know, all died together. Because he determined that this was the end. And that they were going to somehow move from their bodies to a level above human. So we have had a number of cult tragedies. And they have happened over and over again. Some of them worse than others. And I think that it, you know, of course, these are the most extreme groups where people die.

• 2:47:18Speaker 03

  But there are many groups where people's lives are horribly damaged. Where they lose their job, they drop out of school. They become estranged and isolated from family and old friends. They lose all their money because of some group. They're not dead, but they've been badly hurt. And so this is the reason that people pay attention to these groups. Not because of their beliefs, but because of their behavior. And how they negatively impact people's lives.

• 2:47:54Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, you know, it seems like...

• 2:47:58Shawn Ryan?

  The commonality behind a lot of these is manipulating Christianity.

• 2:48:06Speaker 03

  I would, you know, there's no religion that has not been used as a facade, a mask, by cult leaders. There have been groups that have used Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, in my, in my opinion ISIS and Al Qaeda, both cults. One following Al Baghdadi as their savior, the other following, you know, now I'm spacing out.

• 2:48:39Shawn Ryan?

  Bin Laden.

• 2:48:39Speaker 03

  Bin Laden, excuse me. There have been cults using any religion, Islam, you know, Osama bin Laden led Al Qaeda and Al Baghdadi led ISIS. Both of them basically as saviors, as messiahs, leading their followers to death. So, every religion has been used. Now, in the United States and in, and in, and in Europe, of course it's Christianity, because Christianity has currency, Christianity has credibility. And so, if you're a cult leader,

• 2:49:22Speaker 03

  you want to use something as a facade, as a mask, to invoke your authority, to invoke your power. So, what you're saying to your followers is, "I'm not telling you to give up your life for me, I'm telling you to give up your life for God. And you're going to do it because I'm calling upon your deeply held beliefs, as a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu, and because of that, you will see me as an authority representing that higher power, and you will then obey me. You will give me what I want, you will do what I say, because you think that by following me, you're following that higher

• 2:50:07Speaker 03

  power." And so, that's why they use that authority.

• 2:50:13Shawn Ryan?

  Are there any cults that you, any newer ones that you have your eye on right now?

• 2:50:19Speaker 03

  I am very concerned about Israelites united in Christ. That is an African-American identity group, a hate group, that has a YouTube channel. I think YouTube should do something about that. I think that they're negligent by not looking at that closer. I hope they will. You know, so there, I would encourage YouTube in particular to police YouTube more and look for these cult leaders that are on YouTube. Look for these people that are using social media, because they are, and they're hurting people.

• 2:51:02Speaker 03

  And I think there should be more policing done on those platforms.

• 2:51:08Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I'm sure this show will help out with that.

• 2:51:10Speaker 03

  I hope so.

• 2:51:11Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Rick, we're wrapping up here, and I just want to say, thank you for coming on. That was a fascinating conversation. And I gotta be honest, I totally wasn't expecting you to know about the Yellow Deli. That was, I cannot wait to get home and tell my wife about that. What was it, the 12?

• 2:51:32Speaker 03

  12 tribes.

• 2:51:33Shawn Ryan?

  The 12 tribes.

• 2:51:34Speaker 03

  You can find a whole historical archive about them at culteducation.com. I've been following them for decades.

• 2:51:44Shawn Ryan?

  She's gonna be, we've been talking about this for seven years, and to just have you just go, the Yellow Deli, I was, that was, wow. Just goes to show you, these places, I mean, Pulaski, Tennessee is a, you and me are probably the only ones that have ever heard of it that are watching this.

• 2:52:05Speaker 03

  Gee, no, they've been in the media.

• 2:52:08Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, really?

• 2:52:09Speaker 03

  There was a fire in Colorado that allegedly started at one of their communities. And so, and they've been in the news many, many, many times over many things. The 12 tribes began in Chattanooga, Tennessee. That's where they started. And then they branched out, and they moved around, and they're all over the place.

• 2:52:31Shawn Ryan?

  Very interesting. What I was getting at is Pulaski is a very, very small town. And so, it's, you know, this-

• 2:52:41Shawn Ryan?

  I guess they just pop up anywhere.

• 2:52:43Speaker 03

  Is it close to Chattanooga?

• 2:52:45Shawn Ryan?

  It's not far from here. It's only about 45 minutes south of here. So, if you want to go grab a bite.

• 2:52:52Speaker 03

  No thanks.

• 2:52:53Shawn Ryan?

  I'm just kidding. But Rick. It was a pleasure interviewing you. I really appreciate it.