Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel I Want To Fit In, But I Don't Want To Fit In About this episode She is a single mother by choice. She lives in a very tight knit community with very traditional values. Now that her child is almost one, she's ready to date again but doesn't know where to begin. She seeks Esther's advice on how to embrace her new identity as a mom, find a suitable partner, and how to manage the community expectations on her choices.
Topic: Dating & Romantic Consumerism
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected] .
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Speaker 00 My question is about finding love as a single mother by choice to a baby girl, who I conceived with a donor via IVF. I am a completely different person now, as you can imagine, to how I was before. I was living in a foreign country, living and working abroad, and decided to move back to my hometown to be closer to my family and my friends and my community, because having that network of support has been absolutely invaluable. And I'm also considering a change of career. I've been able to fulfill some financial goals that I could only really fulfill here. And so, all in all, my life has just opened up to so many possibilities.
0:49 Speaker 00 And my daughter has brought me so much love and so much joy that, you know, my heart bursts when I just think about it. But my life now is, my identity in fact, is just completely different. And I don't really know who I am now as a mother, as a person, as a woman. And finding love, given those kind of uncertainties, is a little bit scary, and I don't really know where to start with it. So although I'm not in a rush, and a year on, my daughter is very much still my priority. I still have, obviously, my needs and my desires. And I'm trying to figure out how to balance those with my daughter,
1:34 Speaker 00 who is not just a part of my life, she is my life. And I'm wondering how I go about doing that.
1:43 Speaker 00 You know, the kind of man that I would have chosen before is certainly not suitable, in any way, for my daughter, especially for my daughter, for me, of course. But the idea of them providing a role model, that has changed. I now need someone who is stable, who is secure, who is kind, loving. And, you know, the men that I chose before were this way as well, but they were not emotionally available. These are things that I begin to think about, that now that I am so emotionally available.
2:19 Speaker 00 It's a bit difficult for me to kind of figure out the dating pool, as well as bringing someone who is stable, secure, loving, safe, more than anything for my daughter, to be around. So these are the fears that I have, and I would love to talk them through with you, to see if we could kind of figure this out together.
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4:05 Esther Perel? Tell me a little bit how you made all the changes. You've really turned your whole life around. And in a way that that sounds fantastic. Especially when you talked about coming home to the family and the community and the support that you got. You're completely lit up. I don't know where you were or what you were doing, but give me a sense of how you took and redesigned your life.
4:31 Speaker 00 Ah, well, to be honest, it was more about instinct and knowing that it's going to be the best thing. I was raised in a community, I'm originally Southern Italian, but I was born in the UK. And we had a very strong, close-knit community here, very close-knit family as well. So I just knew when I was living, I was actually living in Rome and working there. Um, I didn't have that network there. And I know, raising a child, when you're in a couple, when you're in a family, you need several people to help you. So really, it just uh made sense on a practical level. On an emotional level, not so much.
5:13 Speaker 00 I still felt very connected to Rome, to my independent life, to being away from my community as well. But my, my mum was very supportive. She really wanted me to come back. And financially as well, it made sense. So really, it was a very practical-based decision.
5:37 Esther Perel? Is your donor a known donor or anonymous donor?
5:40 Speaker 00 Anonymous, yeah.
5:42 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And if I hear you well, you're saying, I wanted to be a mum, I wanted to raise a child. I wanted to do it with family and community around and in a very supportive way. I wanted to know that I can take care of her by myself and that financially I can provide. And therefore, I don't need to find a partner. I may want to find a partner.
6:15 Speaker 00 Yes, exactly.
6:17 Esther Perel? All right, tell me more.
6:19 Speaker 00 Uh, so the, the need really is, is as you've identified, it's not, it's not a necessity. I don't need any practical help from a, a partner. And from what I've had, they're not much practical help when it comes to raising a child anyway. But um, it's more the romantic side. I would like that emotional connection. I do want the intimacy that a romantic partner will bring. So, having said all of this.
6:50 Speaker 00 I'm also very conscious that he needs to be right for my daughter as well. So the whole, my whole process of choosing a partner is very different now.
7:04 Esther Perel? But do you imagine, when you think, I'd love to meet someone, you're thinking about creating a family with this person, you're thinking about this person taking on a parental role with your baby, or do you think, I want a lover? I want a person for me, but I don't necessarily wanna create a family with this person. Or that's not, that's certainly not the initial goal. That's two different aspirations.
7:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, of course, and I don't think that I'm, I definitely don't want a replacement father for my daughter. I believe she already has a father, she doesn't know him, but he is there. And that's for her to discover.
7:47 Esther Perel? Can she find him one day if she wants?
7:49 Speaker 00 Yes, but I would like a role model. So I already have my brother, who is a very good male role model. But I would like her to have, if I am to find somebody, that he provides that role. And ideally, I would love him to have kids as well. So if anything, we'd probably have a blended family. But I'm certainly not looking, that's not my goal anyway.
8:14 Esther Perel? And are you dating?
8:18 Speaker 00 No, I'm a bit scared.
8:21 Esther Perel? Alright, so what has made you scared? And is scared just because you now have a child? Or has scared been a part of your love life before?
8:34 Speaker 00 Yes, it has, but having a child has emphasized that a bit more. So whereas before, there was less at stake, of course, my heart, my emotional well-being. But now, my daughter is at stake as well. I wouldn't want her to get attached to somebody who isn't good for me, or you know, that's my thinking now. But I'm also scared of, you know, I don't really have the time, and I don't know how I would actually have a relationship with so many demands on my time and.
9:16 Speaker 00 That side of thing is also a worry as well.
9:20 Esther Perel? But if you had a partner, you'd have to devote some time to that relationship too.
9:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, yes, yeah.
9:27 Esther Perel? If you had conceived a child in the context of a relationship, you'd have to do that too. You couldn't just, I mean, that is what some people say, I'm too busy, I have a baby, I have no time for you.
9:36 Speaker 00 Yes, yeah.
9:37 Esther Perel? This is not unusual, but the idea is that there is, that especially if you have a lot of support, that you actually can also devote yourself to friendship and to romantic love and to various activities and, you know, that you have a life.
9:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, and I think, I mean, I am seeing friends, that's not an issue. I think the fear is, it is about the safety of my daughter, that's for sure, but also I don't know what it would look like. It's all so uncertain, whereas before, it didn't really matter. I could have any kind of, I feel as though before I could have any kind of relationship. It didn't matter so much. But now, my feeling is it needs to be more stable, it needs to be more reliable, and I don't know if that's really what I want.
10:31 Esther Perel? That depends what you're looking for. If you say, I want a boyfriend,
10:38 Esther Perel? that boyfriend may or may not know your daughter,
10:42 Esther Perel? or may have met her once, but that boyfriend does not enter into the unit of the family. It's your, it's your separate relationship. You may have friends who meet your child and who have a relationship with your child, and you may have friends who, you know, see your child once a year. If you say, I want a partner who joins me in the frame of my life, who we either live together or perhaps not, but may, that's a very different project. And part of it, you may not know in advance, you may have a sense.
11:23 Esther Perel? I would like a boyfriend, I would like to experience love, affection, sexuality, intimacy, but I don't necessarily want it to enter into my life at home, and that is...
11:37 Esther Perel? One choice, totally. Another choice is I want someone who has his children. And therefore, he has his activities and his schedule and his constraints on his time and his obligations, and he understands that I do too. And we carve out little windows of time where we meet together. Another one is the one that you hinted at before. I want somebody who comes with a family and understands family and wants to expand the family and create a combined family between his and mine.
12:15 Esther Perel? He may have a combined family that involves another partner, in which the kids have different homes and parents that alternate, that is gonna be different from you no matter what.
12:30 Speaker 00 Yeah.
12:31 Esther Perel? You may find someone who doesn't have an ex-partner. And therefore, they are alone with each other. But I have six, seven scenarios just like that at the top of my hat. Of the kinds of relationships and the kinds of relational networks that each one of these relationships would presuppose. So I don't know. The one that you talked about is the blended family.
13:00 Speaker 00 Yeah.
13:00 Esther Perel? If that's your image, that's very different from a boyfriend, that's very different from a lover, that's very, that's really, you know. I have a family, you have a family, shall we make a new family?
13:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, and if, to be honest, all of those scenarios seem nice to me, they all seem good.
13:21 Esther Perel? Well, that gives you a range of options.
13:24 Speaker 00 It does. However, I mean, there's a reason why I left this community, and that's because of all the expectations that are put on me. You know, the idea of having a casual relationship is, I think emotionally, of course, no one would care, this is the thing, but I think emotionally, I'm still tied to that expectation that I will not participate in those kind of relationships.
13:53 Speaker 00 In my hometown with lots of people who know me around me. So that's also something that I'm sort of struggling with being back here.
14:03 Esther Perel? But if I may, I would imagine you tell me
14:10 Esther Perel? that there are not that many people who have left your community the way you did.
14:16 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:17 Esther Perel? That there are not that many that went ahead and had a child with an anonymous donor like you did.
14:23 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:24 Esther Perel? Without having to depend on a partner to do so. There are not that many who went ahead and created a career the way you did so that you could be totally financially independent and provide for your kid. So by now, you've kind of established, I am a part of you, but I'm not necessarily like you.
14:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, very much so.
14:50 Esther Perel? And regardless of that, people all said, or at least your family has said and your friends have followed, come back, we'll be there for you. So the message has been sent to you, we accept your life choices and we'll participate in them.
15:11 Esther Perel? So it's a little late to start to suddenly worry about what people think.
15:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, and funnily enough, I didn't care what people thought when I, you know, got pregnant, like you said, with an anonymous donor. So, um, yeah.
15:29 Esther Perel? Tell me.
15:32 Esther Perel? Take it in and then take a moment and then respond.
15:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
15:41 Speaker 00 I think for me, the big one is, it is those expectations. It is that there is a part of me that still cares about what people think.
15:50 Esther Perel? And the thinking is what?
15:54 Esther Perel? What are the sentences?
15:56 Speaker 00 God, did you hear about her? She's a slut. Oh, she's been with everyone, that one. Oh, no, you don't want, she'll never get married, that one. She's too liberal. These are the things that I hear in my head.
16:11 Esther Perel? And what have you heard on the street?
16:14 Speaker 00 How did you do this? This is amazing. This is what I've heard. This is what people congratulate me for. I wish my daughter would do this too. Yeah, thank God you've done this now and you're not, it's not too late. This is, these are the things that I've been told.
16:32 Esther Perel? So who are you hearing in your head?
16:36 Speaker 00 Um.
16:39 Speaker 00 My mother.
16:41 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
16:42 Speaker 00 I'm not hearing my father, but I'm feeling the shame that's related to upholding his masculinity.
16:53 Esther Perel? Meaning?
16:55 Speaker 00 If I'm doing what I want, if I'm expressing myself as I feel, it shows that he can't control his women.
17:05 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, mm hmm.
17:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
17:08 Speaker 00 So, I mean, this is ironic because what I've done is probably the most shameful thing I could have possibly done as a woman in my community, and it turns out to be the best thing that I've ever done in my life.
17:24 Esther Perel? And what was shameful about it? To what?
17:28 Speaker 00 The fact that I don't know who the father of my child is. And the fact that I'm not married.
17:38 Esther Perel? Which one is the worst?
17:40 Speaker 00 That I don't know who the father is.
17:42 Esther Perel? Right.
17:42 Speaker 00 Hmm.
17:43 Esther Perel? That's where the masculinity comes in. Okay, so you don't know who the father is, but you didn't do it from sleeping around.
17:51 Speaker 00 No, no.
17:52 Esther Perel? So that's, that kind of resurrects you?
17:58 Speaker 00 Yes, it does.
18:01 Speaker 00 It does.
18:02 Esther Perel? I mean, you did it as a deliberate act
18:04 Speaker 00 Yeah.
18:05 Esther Perel? of technological procreation.
18:07 Speaker 00 Yeah. And it was very much my choice. It's not a, I just found myself in this situation.
18:14 Esther Perel? Right, right. But that may be even more complicated.
18:18 Speaker 00 Yeah.
18:18 Esther Perel? Sometimes there's more sympathy. Ironically, there's more sympathy if you're the victim of something than if you deliberately made that choice. Have you ever had a conversation with your dad about any of this?
18:30 Speaker 00 No, because he passed away. So, he passed away six years ago now. And the last thing that he said to me was, I want you to get married. So, that's a very heavy kind of desire that I haven't fulfilled for him.
18:51 Esther Perel? And that you would like to.
18:53 Speaker 00 I don't think I want to get married. But I do want a stable relationship.
19:00 Esther Perel? Right. But you didn't tell me if you want this relationship to involve you or to involve your daughter and you.
19:11 Speaker 00 I want it to involve my daughter and me.
19:14 Esther Perel? Okay.
19:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
19:20 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.
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21:13 Esther Perel? Okay, so you want more than a boyfriend?
21:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
21:18 Esther Perel? Okay, okay, okay. And have you had a conversation with mom?
21:24 Speaker 00 About the shame element?
21:27 Esther Perel? You tell me.
21:30 Speaker 00 Yes.
21:31 Esther Perel? There are a lot of voices in your head.
21:32 Speaker 00 Yes.
21:33 Esther Perel? There's a whole village. There's a whole village in your head. So there was dad, dad's dead, but his voice is loud and clear.
21:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
21:41 Esther Perel? Now let's hear mom, and then let's see who else is in the choir.
21:45 Speaker 00 So the first thing, we talked about this because when I told her this is what I'm doing, she said, "But what do we tell people?" And so I had to talk to her about, you know, this for me is, it is feeling shameful, but I don't want it to be shameful. I'm trying to work past that. And we worked through, I I appreciate that she's from a generation where this was important. It was so important. It meant, you know, if a woman had done what I had done, obviously in a different way,
22:25 Speaker 00 then she would never get married in our community. So it was important for her, and I understand that. But we, instead of addressing that element of it, we worked through what she would tell people. So I'm proud of my daughter. She's done an amazing thing. You don't need to go into the details of the conception. In fact, I would prefer not to, but I don't want her to express it as, oh, you know, she's at this age. She had to do it, otherwise she couldn't have kids, or, you know, she's just not been able to find a partner. So this is the second best thing. That's not the message I wanted her to communicate.
23:05 Esther Perel? And she found your scripting helpful?
23:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, she did. She did. And also, I think it's helped her as well just to kind of understand that times have changed as well. And, you know, in me explaining why I don't find this a shameful thing anymore. Obviously, initially, I did have that emotional response, but I think she's been able to see that this is the, you know, now that my baby's born, it's the best thing that's ever happened to all of us, you know. So it's kind of put that to rest.
23:39 Esther Perel? How did you do it?
23:41 Speaker 00 How did I?
23:43 Esther Perel? Switch the script for yourself.
23:46 Speaker 00 Hmm, with lots of talking. Yeah.
23:51 Esther Perel? Because you you have something to tell to a lot of women.
23:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
23:57 Esther Perel? Whether you are from Southern Italy or not.
24:00 Speaker 00 Yeah. And, I mean, also, when my father passed away, I made a commitment to myself that I would live the life that I want. I don't want to regret not having at least tried. So whether I feel shame about it or not is something I just have to get past because I'm gonna love this child and that's more important to me than feeling shameful or regretful about not having done something when I could have.
24:33 Esther Perel? And then?
24:35 Speaker 00 And then I just decided I'm just gonna go for it and see what happens because there's no guarantees. It could happen, it couldn't happen, who knows? Um, but I got pregnant straight away, so
24:50 Speaker 00 the first time. Um, so then, a- and then it just became irrelevant, then it just was all about the baby and all about what's best for the baby and the growing feelings of oh my goodness, how am I gonna do this? So really that just overtook it and now that my baby is born, the love that I feel for her is just it's so much more important than whatever else I was feeling at the time.
25:17 Esther Perel? I mean, I totally understand this, but do you have reactions in your community of people who stay away from you because you're too emancipated, too dangerous, too independent, too, too too much woman making her own decisions about her own life?
25:35 Speaker 00 Um, I haven't felt that. Um, in Italy, actually, some relatives in Italy that I told. Interestingly, the ones who I thought would be most judgmental about it really weren't, they were really happy for me. But there were a couple of people who really didn't, they just couldn't understand it. They couldn't quite understand, why would you do such a thing? Or how is it that you're in this position that you have to do this? Is something that a man said to me, one of my male relatives said to me.
26:08 Esther Perel? And what's underneath that question?
26:11 Speaker 00 Um, what's wrong with you?
26:16 Speaker 00 Which, um, I did feel quite painfully at the time, but I don't see myself as having anything wrong with me. Not now, anyway, I feel that I'm a great mother, I feel that I've given my child everything. So there's nothing wrong with me, I've just made a choice.
26:37 Esther Perel? No, but the question that he asked is what's wrong with you that you haven't found a man?
26:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, exactly. Or, as I interpreted it, why does a man not want you?
26:48 Esther Perel? And there is no way to want to have a child without a man?
26:51 Speaker 00 Exactly, yeah.
26:53 Esther Perel? So you depend on the man for the man, and you depend on the man for the child?
26:59 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, that's it.
27:03 Esther Perel? And then, what did you do with that voice inside your head?
27:09 Speaker 00 Well,
27:12 Speaker 00 this is gonna sound really cruel, but
27:16 Esther Perel? To whom?
27:17 Speaker 00 To him. But I don't, I don't respect his opinion, because I don't really respect him. I've traveled the world, I'm an independent woman, there's many accomplishments I am proud of. My baby is the most important accomplishment. So why would this man's opinion matter to me?
27:36 Esther Perel? Good for you.
27:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
27:39 Esther Perel? You know, but I'm collecting the voices. Because sometimes, even while we are able to kind of push them away and refute them, they do kind of penetrate through the cracks. And they become layers of the collective voices, the village that lives inside our head. You know, the village and the community provides close support in all traditional cultures, as long as you do what's expected.
28:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
28:13 Esther Perel? I mean, the support is not just, you know, for whatever. The support is contingent on your following the rules. And the rules is you're incomplete as a woman if you don't have a husband.
28:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
28:26 Esther Perel? And therefore, all your efforts are about finding the husband, because that's the person who's gonna give you children.
28:34 Esther Perel? And when you say, "I haven't found this husband yet, and I don't see why I have to not have children until I find a husband. In fact, I'm gonna have children, and hopefully, it'll actually make me more likely to find a husband."
28:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
28:51 Esther Perel? And, and you want that husband to be from your community as well, or it doesn't matter?
28:55 Speaker 00 It doesn't matter to me, no. I say that, but I would, in an ideal world, yes.
29:03 Speaker 00 I don't know how possible that is, just because I know a lot of them and there's no one that I'm interested in. But it's not something that is essential, no.
29:14 Esther Perel? And why would you prefer from your own community?
29:18 Speaker 00 I think because we understand each other on a deeper level, so.
29:25 Speaker 00 What's really important to me is family, that's my number one value, so. If he, I mean, I say this, but I know many people from my community who really don't value their families. Or they pretend, but actually they don't, um.
29:43 Speaker 00 So, no, maybe it's not so important.
29:46 Esther Perel? May I suggest something?
29:48 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:48 Esther Perel? If it was a person from your community, then you would finally, fully, you would finally be fully accepted?
29:58 Speaker 00 Potentially, yes, yeah.
30:03 Speaker 00 Do I want that, though? I'm just wondering if I want that.
30:06 Esther Perel? Well, what price do I have to pay in order to be finally fully accepted?
30:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
30:13 Esther Perel? And is it worth the price?
30:19 Speaker 00 The short answer to that is I don't think it's worth the price.
30:23 Esther Perel? Okay, I thought you would say that too.
30:25 Speaker 00 Yeah.
30:26 Esther Perel? Do you meet men when you travel?
30:29 Speaker 00 I have done, yes, I have done, um. They have, yeah, I've had some really lovely relationships, I've met some really lovely men, but they're all emotionally unavailable. Which reflects how I was at the time as well. They would shy away from intimacy.
30:50 Esther Perel? Okay.
30:51 Speaker 00 Not want relationships, not want commitment, and make that very clear. And sometimes that suited me, sometimes it really didn't. But as I've become more available emotionally, and I'd say that certainly in the past two years. That's been the case, I've been more direct in expressing that I want a relationship, or I wanted commitment, or. What it was that I wanted or needed at the time.
31:17 Esther Perel? And what changed in the last two years?
31:22 Speaker 00 I can't pinpoint anything in particular that has changed, but certainly Covid, being on my own in Covid. I was on my own for the whole of the lockdown in Italy and it was very, it was very much a lockdown, yes. But that really showed me that I do want intimacy. And I miss the connections that I had, especially in my community. I've really missed that. Um, and also my, my father passing away really showed me that I found vulnerability and expressing vulnerability very difficult.
31:57 Speaker 00 And my needs, especially my needs and my desires, I found that really difficult. Um, really, my dad's death put that under the spotlight.
32:09 Esther Perel? How so?
32:11 Speaker 00 I think the connection that I had with my father towards the end of his life was really profound. It was probably the first time that he had ever told me that he loved me. And he showed me in many, many ways, but I didn't understand. He had cancer, so we knew he was going to die from the cancer. I think that just brought us really close together. And his approval, him telling me that he was, uh, he loved me and that he was grateful to me and, uh, really I'd never seen that side of him before. That really showed to me that I want that emotional connection and that vulnerability in all of my relationships.
32:57 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So when he said, I want you to marry, he didn't say it from a place of make me proud or he, he basically was saying, I hope you find love.
33:09 Speaker 00 Yes, and I want you to be looked after.
33:13 Esther Perel? And in his world, that meant marriage?
33:15 Speaker 00 Yes, yeah.
33:16 Esther Perel? Okay, so this is not a bad expectation.
33:18 Speaker 00 No, no.
33:19 Esther Perel? Okay.
33:20 Speaker 00 No.
33:20 Esther Perel? Okay, that changes a lot.
33:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
33:24 Esther Perel? It changes, I mean, at least it changes my understanding of the last thing that he said to you.
33:31 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
33:32 Esther Perel? I hope you find someone who looks after you. But that's not necessarily the way you're looking at it. Because you are being looked after, which gives you a lot of freedom.
33:44 Speaker 00 It does, it does.
33:47 Esther Perel? So now, what stands in the way?
33:56 Speaker 00 I think ultimately it's fear.
34:00 Speaker 00 It's a feeling that I can't trust as well.
34:04 Speaker 00 I can't trust that he'll be reliable. And that if I need him, he will be there. It's not about him being faithful or unfaithful. That's never been an issue for me. It's more about, does he really mean what he says? Is he really going to be there for me if I need him?
34:25 Speaker 00 That I think has underlined a lot of my relationships.
34:30 Esther Perel? And that's a fair request. That's not necessarily just a fear. I want someone who I can count on.
34:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
34:42 Esther Perel? Who, when he says they're gonna show up, shows up. Who is attentive to the things that are important to me. Yeah, that is a...
34:53 Esther Perel? If you said that about a friend, you wouldn't say, "I have fears."
34:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
34:59 Esther Perel? You would say, "Here are things I expect from friends."
35:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
35:03 Esther Perel? But you wouldn't say, "I'm afraid." You would say, "Here are things that I see as part of friendship."
35:09 Esther Perel? So why, when it comes to men, do you frame it as a fear? Basically, let me ask you the real question. You come from a community, as all communities for that matter, that has a lot of ideas and a lot of clear assumptions about men and women and relationships and marriage and trust and cheating. It has a very clear code. How much is one of the messages on the street, as you said? Because you already slipped that out before when you said that you need a man to help you with the raising of the children. But we know they're not that useful in that department.
35:53 Esther Perel? That's street talk.
35:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
35:56 Esther Perel? You understand what I mean by street talk is like it's the vernacular of how people. What can you count on men for? What can you count on women for? Women are this way, men are. Men are sluts, they can't really help in the house. It's not necessarily true, but that's. You know, you go with that statement. And the next one you just uttered now is, you know, it's really hard to find a reliable man.
36:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
36:21 Esther Perel? Men are unreliable. These are declarations, statements, you know? Plenty of statements about women.
36:28 Speaker 00 Yeah.
36:28 Esther Perel? About those kind of women versus those kind of women, the virtues. Ah, you've already talked about the sluts. You know, you've, you've, you've kind of brought in an entire
36:39 Esther Perel? society of characters.
36:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
36:43 Esther Perel? Is it the village where you are or is it a big city?
36:46 Speaker 00 It's quite a big town. It's a city, but it's a town really.
36:49 Esther Perel? Right, and but there is a strong Southern Italian community.
36:54 Speaker 00 Yes, yeah.
36:55 Esther Perel? That lives in this town.
36:57 Speaker 00 Exactly.
36:57 Esther Perel? And that basically has brought with them a lot of very strong established notions
37:05 Speaker 00 Yes.
37:06 Esther Perel? of how we see men and how we see women and what each gender is good for and what they're useless at.
37:13 Speaker 00 Exactly.
37:13 Esther Perel? And a lot of this stereotype is part of mother's milk.
37:17 Speaker 00 Mm hmm, mm hmm, yeah, yeah.
37:20 Esther Perel? So is the one about how difficult it is to find? You know, are you afraid because something happened to you? Or are you afraid because basically you've been fed that mother's milk?
37:30 Speaker 00 It's the mother's milk, definitely. It's the. Observation that most women that I know in my community, I've grown up with lots of women who felt very unhappy in marriage, very repressed. I mean, one of my friends said to me, you're the only one who has freedom and is actually using it.
37:53 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
37:54 Speaker 00 And yeah, and I thought, I felt really sad because it's true. I'm the only one who's taken my freedom and run with it.
38:01 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
38:02 Speaker 00 And that's kind of how I've seen marriage and male female relationships that they're.
38:08 Esther Perel? So you're in a trap.
38:09 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:09 Esther Perel? You would like to get married.
38:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:11 Esther Perel? But in fact, when you look around, there is nothing particularly attractive about it.
38:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's a trap. Exactly. That's exactly how I describe it. Yeah, I was raised to be a wife, really, not uh someone who has a career and but that's a trap as well, you know.
38:30 Esther Perel? And the wife is not necessarily a woman, nor a career person, nor a free person. And so this is the essence of what you're, if I hear your question.
38:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:43 Esther Perel? I would like to get married or to, not married, I would like to have a partner. But everything I've learned is about how life in that context is fairly miserable.
38:57 Speaker 00 Exactly.
38:58 Esther Perel? And why would I lock myself up into the very structure that every friend around me wants to get out of?
39:09 Esther Perel? We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free,
39:16 Speaker 02 click the try free button to subscribe to Astera's office hours on Apple Podcasts.
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40:55 Esther Perel? You know, there was a time I was, I must have been, you just made me think of this, about nine years old or so, nine, 10. And my mother was surrounded by a group of friends, and their husbands were dying at the time. And I remember saying to my mother, they must be so sad. They have lost their husbands. And my mother said, they're so happy. They don't have to wash anybody else's socks anymore.
41:23 Esther Perel? And it stayed with me like one of these most, like she just cleaned me of the romantic haze in one comment. It's like, girl, don't misunderstand. There is love, there is romance, and then there is marriage.
41:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, exactly.
41:42 Esther Perel? Of course, I think we've gone a long way to try to create a different kind of marriage. But you're saying to me, there's something I think I want, or at least I think I should want, but in fact, when I look at it, I don't really want it.
41:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah.
41:58 Esther Perel? Okay. And it's called relationships, partnership with a man, a life partner, even if you don't officially marry them. And that's, okay. If you don't marry them, you may have a little bit more freedom. But... Here's where you're gonna need to learn to trust yourself.
42:16 Speaker 00 Um.
42:17 Esther Perel? And then that means it probably, it may not be from the community.
42:21 Speaker 00 Um, yeah, and that that is something that I was thinking about. I don't know. Because my identity now is so different, I don't know if I trust myself. I don't know who I am, first of all, to be able to trust myself as well with those decisions.
42:39 Esther Perel? Why?
42:41 Speaker 00 I think there's, there's a lot of self doubt now. I definitely feel less confident.
42:49 Speaker 00 Um.
42:52 Speaker 00 I'm just not sure about who.
42:55 Esther Perel? Why less confident?
43:01 Speaker 00 I actually don't know why. I just feel I haven't been at work for a year now. I've had a long maternity leave.
43:09 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
43:10 Speaker 00 Um, I don't function the same as I used to. My thinking, it's hard to think sometimes.
43:17 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
43:18 Speaker 00 I'm so consumed with what does my daughter need? What do I need to do now? What do I need to do tomorrow? That I find it hard to, you know, even sometimes remember words. So. That has changed. My body has changed. I don't even look in the mirror anymore. Just because I don't have time or I don't, you know, like I said, I'm so busy thinking about other things.
43:42 Speaker 00 These things for me have knocked my confidence. And I don't even know if they've had a knock on effect yet on my romantic life. But I do feel wary about, you know, am I still?
43:57 Speaker 00 Am I the woman that I used to be? I guess.
44:02 Esther Perel? No.
44:03 Speaker 00 Hmm.
44:04 Esther Perel? But that doesn't mean that I should completely deny the woman in me.
44:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
44:09 Esther Perel? Because I am also a mother.
44:12 Speaker 00 Yeah.
44:13 Esther Perel? I mean, the new exercise is about retrieving the woman from behind the mother and making room for various parts of your identity. So if you say, "I was raised to be a wife, and I don't just want to be a wife." Then you say, "I want to be a career woman, and a mother, and a lover, and a woman."
44:35 Esther Perel? Then, now you're going to take this project of these multiple parts to my identity, and you're gonna see this as a unique opportunity to actually straddle them all. And you will, of course, learn that you cannot be perfect in all of them, because that's how it works. But the fact that you even have access to all of them is a unique opportunity that most women in your community have never had.
45:02 Speaker 00 Yes.
45:03 Esther Perel? So you can't just get away with saying, "I don't have time to look in the mirror for a minute." You have good support, you have mom, you have friends, you have probably other relatives. You need to find your time to look at yourself in the mirror, in the symbolic sense of the word.
45:18 Speaker 00 Yeah.
45:22 Esther Perel? And you have a ten-month-old, so this is, this takes time.
45:25 Speaker 00 Yeah.
45:26 Esther Perel? This is not happening right now. But the, but the permission and the value that you assign to it have to remain a part, because this is the change that actually happens. If you then voluntarily do away with it,
45:43 Esther Perel? then you may not be the wife, but you'll be the widow.
45:46 Speaker 00 And that ironically is what a lot of women in my community do. They, you know, if their husband dies, they never, ever have another relationship. Or, you know, if they get past a certain age, traditionally, that's it for them. They just give up.
46:04 Esther Perel? So you haven't gone that far
46:06 Speaker 00 No.
46:07 Esther Perel? to now voluntarily give up on all of it. It may take a few, you know, I remember it took me a few years before I remembered the beginning of a book when I reached the end. So your attention changes, your brain changes, you focus on your children. But that doesn't mean that you become invisible to yourself. That doesn't mean that only the needs of your daughter matter and that you don't pay any attention to your own needs. And that takes a while to figure out, but the value has to be present with full permission.
46:47 Esther Perel? And partly, it will also be a better model for your daughter. Because the model of sacrificing and chastity is not the most inspiring one today for your daughter either.
47:04 Speaker 00 I don't want to imprison my daughter in that either.
47:07 Esther Perel? Okay.
47:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
47:09 Esther Perel? So you plan to go back to work?
47:12 Speaker 00 I will be going back to work, yes.
47:14 Esther Perel? Okay, and so your daughter will learn that she's being raised by a community, that she has grandma, that she has multiple maternal figures.
47:24 Speaker 00 Yes.
47:24 Esther Perel? That she has some parental and paternal figures. And she will be different than some of the kids in the village or in the community. And when I say village, I mean it in a... Because basically, the people in the community have brought the values of the old village into the big town.
47:42 Speaker 00 That's right, yeah.
47:44 Esther Perel? Into another country with a different language, but with the same values. At least a certain generation.
47:51 Speaker 00 And they've stayed there.
47:53 Esther Perel? Right, so your daughter is gonna know that she's different. When she goes to school, she will be... She will come with a different family reality than some of the others. But the others by now are different from what they were expected to be too.
48:10 Speaker 00 Yes.
48:11 Esther Perel? In your community, change is happening, but the recognition is slow.
48:16 Speaker 00 Yes.
48:18 Esther Perel? And you will talk with your daughter about that. And that will be one of the messages is, your mother wanted very much to have you, and she found a way to do so. And she didn't have a male partner at the time to have you. And so she got a wonderful person who she's never met, who was generous enough to want to make your life possible. I mean, that story will have to come up very soon.
48:45 Speaker 00 Yeah.
48:47 Esther Perel? And with that, because, you know, when you grow up, that comes a little later, you will be a mother, maybe, if you choose to, and you will be a woman, and you will be a career person, and you will be a daughter, and you will be a friend, and you will have multiple parts to your identity.
49:07 Esther Perel? And you will find that it's not always so easy to do what you want. But sometimes, when you do it, you feel like it's the greatest sense of agency, autonomy, and freedom that you could ever imagine.
49:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
49:24 Esther Perel? How is all this landing on you?
49:31 Speaker 00 It's a funny one, because all of it is so inspiring and empowering, and the future feels so amazing when I think about all of these possibilities. But there's also a slight sense of grief as well, of, you know, this is something really new.
50:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, I can only describe it as a feeling of leaving behind a lot of, a lot of very important parts of me.
50:10 Esther Perel? Say more.
50:14 Speaker 00 Well, there's so many women who have defined their life in this way. They're all part of my family, a big part of me as well, has been defined by not having these freedoms.
50:32 Speaker 00 So, yeah, it does feel like I'm leaving that behind. But there's a very conflictual feeling of, that's great, but it's also a bit sad as well.
50:46 Speaker 00 I don't know if that's making sense.
50:49 Esther Perel? What is it that you're leaving behind? For you?
50:55 Esther Perel? I think it's beautiful what you're saying.
50:58 Speaker 00 Yeah.
50:58 Esther Perel? Because you're saying, "I want to experience this feminist revolution inside of me."
51:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
51:06 Esther Perel? "I want to be that pioneer, that woman that strikes out on her own, that makes decisions that no woman in my community have ever done." But at the same time,
51:20 Esther Perel? when you leave to do these things on your own, the word "on your own"
51:25 Speaker 00 Yeah.
51:25 Esther Perel? is also in the sentence.
51:28 Speaker 00 Yes.
51:28 Esther Perel? And that means you have to bear the consequences alone. In a way that in a communal structure, if things didn't work out, you're not blamed for it in the same way.
51:40 Speaker 00 Yeah. It feels a bit like a responsibility.
51:46 Speaker 00 Without it sounding...
51:46 Esther Perel? Freedom?
51:47 Speaker 00 Yeah.
51:47 Esther Perel? Yes, freedom and responsibility go together.
51:50 Speaker 00 Yes, yeah.
51:52 Esther Perel? You know, if you do what everybody does, you can kind of hide in the pile.
51:57 Speaker 00 Yeah.
51:58 Esther Perel? If you stand out, everybody's looking at you. Half of them are cheering you on, hoping that you succeed at it, because it's everything they've never dared to do but have drummed about all along. And the other half hopes that you fail.
52:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
52:15 Esther Perel? Because they didn't have the guts to do it either. And if you fail, then at least they know for a fact that they were right not to try.
52:23 Esther Perel? This is true when people strike out in a family or in a company or in a society or in a tight community that is identified by shared values and shared assumptions about life and about gender roles and all of that.
52:43 Esther Perel? So when you say there is grief, what's the parts that you think you're leaving or losing?
52:54 Speaker 00 Just the fitting in. The feeling of it's such a...
53:03 Speaker 00 A step forward in the direction I want to go. That maybe it's a bit too much for the, you know, the. I mean, I say community, but it's not like there's all these people looking at me. But it does feel like the disapproval would be quite a lot to bear. I think I would be leaving behind a big piece of that.
53:27 Esther Perel? So tell me something. What made your mom say, come home?
53:33 Esther Perel? And maybe other people, aunts, uncles.
53:35 Speaker 00 Yeah.
53:36 Esther Perel? Neighbors, cousins.
53:39 Speaker 00 It's the love that she feels for me, the desire that I'm okay, that I'm looked after.
53:45 Esther Perel? So you've been fitting in for a long time?
53:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
53:48 Esther Perel? If you didn't fit in, they would not have called you back. They would have called you the daughter who lives far away.
53:58 Esther Perel? But if they brought you back. And they said, we're gonna raise this kid all together. So you're fitting in.
54:06 Speaker 00 Yes.
54:07 Esther Perel? Remember that? If you didn't fit in, in a tight-knit community, when you don't fit in, you're not invited back.
54:14 Speaker 00 True, yeah, very true.
54:18 Esther Perel? But you are right, that if you, if you do your own thing and you strike out on your own. You lose that cushion.
54:30 Esther Perel? You lose the cushion. They all follow a trajectory that has been drawn in front of them. And they follow the steps that have been prescribed. You are charting your own course. That charting your own course gives you more freedom, more creativity, more empowerment. But also more aloneness.
54:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
54:56 Esther Perel? And they go together.
55:01 Esther Perel? If you don't follow the prescribed and assigned route,
55:07 Esther Perel? then you pick your own trajectory. And when you pick your own trajectory, you're in charge, but you're also more responsible. You get to create it, but you then bear the consequences of your decisions.
55:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
55:27 Esther Perel? So when you left for Italy, they didn't, I don't know if they said, "Go for it, have a great time, explore the world."
55:37 Speaker 00 They have done several times before that. So even when I was, you know, I've traveled a lot and I've... The first time was very difficult for my parents because I was quite young. But now, they just, you know, this is just what I do. It's just, they know I'll come back.
55:54 Esther Perel? So that puts you in a wonderful place.
56:00 Esther Perel? Yes, you are a pioneer. Yes, you charge your own territory. But you have a family that basically says, "Do what we have not done."
56:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
56:11 Esther Perel? And we will support you to the best way we can.
56:19 Speaker 00 That feels really loving, actually. That does make me feel very loved to think of that. And as I say that, I can imagine even my female ancestors probably saying the same thing.
56:32 Esther Perel? Does it fit?
56:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
56:38 Esther Perel? You are the woman who will do what we could not.
56:46 Esther Perel? That's a mission.
56:50 Esther Perel? You're a woman on a mission.
56:54 Esther Perel? In that sense, your life is bigger than just the choices you make for you and your daughter. They have implications for many other women.
57:05 Esther Perel? So that's the transcendent dimension of your life, is that the choices you make affect the lives of other women.
57:15 Esther Perel? And that is the price of being different and the privilege of being different.
57:23 Esther Perel? Anything you want to add to our conversation as we approach the end?
57:31 Speaker 00 There's a lot to think about, a lot to go away and consider and reflect on. But the responsibility part, the going away from your community, what that feels like, that I hadn't really thought about. But also that I really do want to fit in, but also don't want to fit in. And I think that's okay. It's okay to have that feeling of not really fitting in, just being more comfortable with that, but also knowing that I'm supported and loved.
58:07 Esther Perel? Wonderful. Thank you so much.
58:09 Speaker 00 Thank you.
58:17 Speaker 02 This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Juliana. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
58:59 Speaker 02 And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Astaire Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
59:23 Speaker 02 Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy terms and conditions.
59:54 Speaker 04 Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.
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