Terms & Conditions May Apply: What We All Need to Know About Modern Dating

Dating often comes with a lot of questions. Who gets to say what they want? Who gets to be chosen? Who gets to choose? Should I stay on/off the apps? How much do I share, when, and how? This week, Esther gets set up on a blind date of sorts with three people, all deeply invested in the world of modern dating, to talk through what it's like out there and how she can help them navigate IRL dates. Topic: Dating & Romantic Consumerism Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Esther Perel?

  The dating is a phase in the life of relationships and in the life of people that is crucial. How do we date? Where do we date? What are the protocols, the rituals of dating in different cultures? Who gets to say what they want? Who gets to be chosen? Who gets to choose? How do we swipe? It's like a portal. When you say the word "dating", and some of you are currently dating, and some of you are just so fatigued that you want to go cold turkey. And others are wondering, "Maybe I should go back and start dating again." And some of you are in a relationship, wondering, "What would it be like? What's it like out there if I was to leave?"

• 0:46Esther Perel?

  So, dating puts us directly in touch with a host of questions about our relationships, what we seek there, how we see ourselves, how we connect to each other. And I am here on a blind date with three people who are currently dating. Each with a completely different story, each at a different stage of their life. Some looking for partnership and lifelong relationships, hopefully, and some looking to have good time. Some enjoy it, some dread it, and everything in between. And part of up-dating, digital dating, allows us to meet an enormous amount of people

• 1:29Esther Perel?

  that we would never have had a chance to meet. And at the same time, the excess choice, the enormous amount of possibilities, the paradox of choice, the inability to just see one person emerge from this whole lot of people brings fatigue, brings numbness, and brings a certain kind of desocializing, you know, where we begin to treat each other in ways that are very unkind, make us feel not really respected, esteemed, treated as a human being. And sometimes we are on the receiving end of this, and sometimes we are on the doing end of this, as you can hear

• 2:13Esther Perel?

  from some of the people in the conversation. So, let's talk about dating.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  When it's the end of the day and you're settled into the couch looking for your evening watch, you're not looking for Homework the Movie. You're looking for comfort, excitement, or something in between. Whether you're craving something familiar or in the mood to discover something new, Amazon Prime has what you need, from screen to doorstep. Because it's not just about genres or endless content. It's about finding the thing that matches how you're feeling, whatever the mood. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheet. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at Odoo.com/vox. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash vox.

• 3:42Esther Perel?

  Hi, hi. Hello.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Hi, everyone.

• 3:44Esther Perel?

  Hello, welcome, everyone. Thank you.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 3:48Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes. You haven't had a chance to meet, right? No.

• 3:52Speaker 04

  I did not.

• 3:53Esther Perel?

  So, we're all on a blind date. Yes, ma'am.

• 3:59Esther Perel?

  Can you just introduce yourselves, where you're from, how old you are, if you've had long-term relationships, but just to have a sense of what have been your experiences with relationships as a whole, rather than just our focus today on dating?

• 4:18Speaker 05

  Should I go first?

• 4:19Esther Perel?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 4:19Speaker 05

  So, my name is Louis. I'm in my late twenties. I work in accounting, and when it comes to dating, I was originally born in Africa, in Cameroon. I moved to the US when I was in my early twenties. And... That's when I first came out as gay, obviously, and started dating. I have been in one long relationship, about a year and a half. I've had several dates that last for about three to six months on average.

• 4:53Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:53Speaker 05

  So that's pretty much my experience so far.

• 4:57Speaker 06

  I'm Ally. I live just outside of Boston. Um, I'm forty seven years old. Um, I grew up in Saudi Arabia and I moved to the US when I was fifteen. And I met my now very much ex-husband when I was twenty three. We were together for a long time. We were married for about ten years before that came to sort of a screeching halt. And um, I've been divorced for maybe five years now-ish. But I've had one longer term relationship in that time.

• 5:28Esther Perel?

  Yes, Douglas.

• 5:30Speaker 04

  Yes, hello. Um, my name is actually not Douglas. It's a very difficult Korean name that most people can't say, and Douglas is my alias. Um, I'm from Korea, obviously. I moved a bit more than a year ago to Los Angeles because I got a job out here. And since then, I have been looking for a long term partner, a romantic relationship. Because before then, I'd always known that I was gonna move away at some point. So I didn't really pursue that actively. And since getting here, I've been really at it. Since then, I have met one person who I went out with for a few months uh, before she broke it off. It's been interesting. I've learned a lot.

• 6:14Esther Perel?

  Do you meet people in person? How how do you go about it? What's what's the, this is a verb suddenly, you know, dating. And it, by the way, does the word exist in Korean?

• 6:27Speaker 04

  No, that's a good point, Esther.

• 6:29Esther Perel?

  Right. Does the word exist in French, Louis?

• 6:33Speaker 05

  Uh, yes, I would say, uh, rendezvous, sortir.

• 6:39Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but that's not a verb.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  That's not a verb.

• 6:42Esther Perel?

  And does the word, the verb exist in Arabic?

• 6:46Speaker 06

  Not in, not as a verb.

• 6:48Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 6:49Speaker 06

  No.

• 6:49Esther Perel?

  Because there is something, of course, everybody now does it in the same way, but as a verb, it doesn't translate in many other languages. There is no such a thing as dating. You meet people, you go out, you see someone, you've met someone, you're interested in someone.

• 7:07Esther Perel?

  But you're not on a mission.

• 7:11Esther Perel?

  Dating is an active verb that seeks an outcome. So, I mean, there's a lot of things to say about how this has become an activity. Rather than unrendezvous, rather than an encounter. So, if I asked you one thing about your last date that stood out for you. Or datings, doesn't have to be one, but what's, what has kind of carried you or stayed with you in your recent dating?

• 7:47Speaker 04

  I, I've noticed that um it's very difficult to stay in touch with someone, even if they're very nice and potentially very compatible with me. If there's no, some, some kind of attraction in the earlier stages. And I've, I've been finding it difficult to feel attracted to a lot of people on my dates. Yeah, so I'm noticing that about myself and seeing what I can do about it.

• 8:17Esther Perel?

  Louis?

• 8:18Speaker 05

  Um, okay, so uh for my most recent date, so to me, it's uh, dating is a bit of a pattern. If you ask me and I also had experience, asked most of my friends, so it always goes from the really, really high, like high emotions, high attractions. And then it just fades out or drops suddenly. So that's kind of how it usually goes most of the time. And something that stands out for me uh on most of the dates I go to, it's not necessarily connection, but it's the interaction that I have with the person. It's the way they they present themselves, it's the way they make me wanna present myself and they make me wanna interact with them.

• 9:00Speaker 05

  So I feel like every single time it's always different. So it's it's always different, but at the same time, it has like kind of like a vibration, kind of a way of going every single time, if it makes sense.

• 9:14Esther Perel?

  So Douglas says, I I have I struggle to get to feel any attraction on many of the dates I go to and you say I I actually have splurges of attraction, but it fizzles out very quickly.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 9:29Esther Perel?

  Yeah. And what's something that you would like to focus on today or a question that you bring to our conversation?

• 9:39Speaker 05

  Uh, one thing I was expecting to get out of today's conversation, it's actually get a better understanding of where other people are standing. That's first, like where other people are and in their dating phase, so hopefully there are those previous partner that I have had before, you know, kind of understand what is the angle, how they're looking at things, and maybe that could help me kind of adjust and kind of direct or be more understandable or be more patient or being more relaxed when it comes to it, not just put everything all at first, you know, all the attraction kind of they turn it down a little bit or spread it out for the long run.

• 10:22Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:23Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. Thank you. And um for today, what would be something that's important for you?

• 10:30Speaker 06

  I think something that I'm finding is um I'm very ambivalent about dating and I think a little bit more like you, Douglas, like I I don't find myself getting super excited um to go on dates and I find the process kind of tedious. Um, so I think my friends are kind of sick of me talking to them about this all the time. Most of them are partnered, um so I think that I don't have a lot of other you know, folks who are actively dating in my life right now, so anything that can get me like a little bit out of that ambivalence, I think is what I'm looking for.

• 11:07Esther Perel?

  How do you meet Douglas? You go, you're primarily on the apps, which one? Where, where do you meet your, your, your people? Where do you meet your dates?

• 11:17Speaker 04

  I have met um the majority of them, of course, on the dating apps, I would say.

• 11:23Esther Perel?

  Which one?

• 11:24Speaker 04

  Um, I'm on Hinge, the only, that's the only one that I'm on. And otherwise, I do, I am very active, I go out a lot, I try to be social.

• 11:35Esther Perel?

  How about you, Louis?

• 11:37Speaker 05

  Um, me, when it comes to dating, uh, I meet people organically out usually. Yeah, I'm very extroverted, I tend to go out on parties, uh, out and drinking. And also on the app a lot. So on the app, I've used all of them. Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, and especially one Grindr.

• 11:59Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:59Speaker 05

  For the kids. And yes, so that's usually how I meet them. And I tend to be more of a meeting in person type of person. I don't really do a long conversation. And usually what catches my attention is the person's pictures, what they do, uh, how they present themselves, you know, if they are very outgoing, if they are very adventurous, if they like to travel, those are the things that kind of get my attention first.

• 12:29Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:30Esther Perel?

  How long do you exchange before you meet them in person? Before, how long do you wait?

• 12:37Speaker 05

  Usually I give myself about a week, I have a window of about a week. So if we haven't initiated anything about a week, I usually tend to just dismiss it completely and just move on to somebody else, I would say.

• 12:54Esther Perel?

  And where would you go on a first date? And do you consider the first date when you meet them?

• 13:00Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:01Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:01Speaker 05

  When we meet in person, yes.

• 13:03Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:04Speaker 05

  So my usual first date would be, usually it's a walk. I like to walk, that's something that I do a lot. So I would usually invite them. Uh, before I used to live in Dallas, there was a specific area where I used to live, uh, by a small lake, where I would just take every single person I did, we would go on the same, on the same lake, take a walk, and then if, um.

• 13:28Esther Perel?

  And depending on how fast you walked, you had a sense of if there was a.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  Depending on how fast we walk and how quick we do the loop and. If the date was successful, we usually stop by. There was a little restaurant where we stopped by to have either ice cream or to have a little drink. Or something. If it wasn't successful, we just meet back and then just get back in our different cars and then go.

• 13:52Esther Perel?

  So, if it's not successful, successful means I'm not sure I wanna see that. I know I don't wanna see that person again, right? Is that the idea? Okay.

• 14:03Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:04Esther Perel?

  What do you say? What's your opening line and what's your closing line, if there is such a thing?

• 14:11Speaker 05

  Usually, in person, we wouldn't say much. Uh, it's usually after their text that I would say it was a really nice time, but I don't really feel a connection here. So, uh, I wish you the best of luck most of the time. And I hate to say this about myself, but sometimes it just organically just fizzles out. Like, they don't reach out and I don't reach out.

• 14:37Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm. And the opening one? How do you start?

• 14:42Speaker 05

  The opening one, when we first meet?

• 14:43Esther Perel?

  Um, or even before, the opening line?

• 14:48Speaker 05

  Uh, I usually tend to go with a joke, something about, uh, what their profile says or something about where they are on a specific picture.

• 14:56Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:56Speaker 05

  And I would ask them like, oh, is that the Grand Canyon behind you? Or, oh, I didn't know you could swim, something, when they're completely in the water, you know, something like that.

• 15:07Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:08Speaker 05

  And, yeah, that's usually the most successful one. Like, I usually go in with a joke or just a standard hi.

• 15:15Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Ali?

• 15:19Speaker 06

  So what is the original question again?

• 15:21Esther Perel?

  Ah, there've been so many. So, but you can start anywhere. I understood you started dating again of, again after twenty years. So that's first of all. Differently from Douglas and Louise that you, you actually have another experience.

• 15:37Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:38Esther Perel?

  Um, and this is a new culture, this is a new practice. How do you go about it? What do you write on your profile? What catches your attention?

• 15:51Esther Perel?

  What is it that you're looking for when you look? What do your eyes stop at? And then I'll continue. So I don't overwhelm you with ten questions at once.

• 16:03Speaker 06

  Sure, sure. Um, you know, even though my experience is really different from Douglas and Louis, like I'm still, I'm on the dating apps, guys. I'm on Bumble and I'm on Hinge. Um, and that is the primary, that is the only way that I've met people to go on dates with this time around. You know, the last time I was dating was in my, you know, early twenties and, you know, maybe there were Craigslist personal ads back then, um, but there were no dating apps, you know? Um, and so you really, like, I met people at work, I met people who were friends of friends, or maybe you'd go out and somebody would hit on you, it was that kind of thing. So this was a totally new experience. And now I can't even imagine just like going out at night somewhere with friends

• 16:48Speaker 06

  and like meeting somebody organically, like in the wild. I'm like, do people even do that? So the things that, you know, I think I'm pretty straightforward in my dating profile about what I'm looking for, but I waffle sometimes, like I'll, you know, for a few months it'll say, I'm looking for a long-term relationship or I'm looking for a life partner. And then when that doesn't sort of get me anywhere, then it's like, well, maybe I just want to have fun. And so I might sort of change the messaging on my profile.

• 17:18Esther Perel?

  Does it change who use, whose profile you then pay attention to?

• 17:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, because I'm looking at things like what are, what is somebody's intention on the prof, on the dating apps? And so then I might change, you know, who I'm looking at or who I might consider. Um, when it comes to the things that catch my eye on other people's profiles, it's always the first thing I'm looking for is like, is there a smile somewhere? Is there a smile in one of the photos, hopefully the first one? Um. And there's like this intangible sort of, there's something about the visual piece that is my first line, and it's not necessarily like, do I find this person extremely attractive is, do I get the sort of, this is a kind and open person kind of coming through the photo.

• 18:07Speaker 06

  And that's like my first line of sorting, I guess.

• 18:10Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. How often have you been surprised when you meet them?

• 18:14Speaker 06

  Surprised in what way?

• 18:15Esther Perel?

  That they're kinder than what the picture showed, or that they're less?

• 18:19Speaker 06

  I feel like it's ninety percent of the time, it's pretty spot on, and then I get surprised every once in a while. Yeah.

• 18:26Esther Perel?

  And what makes you wanna go and meet them in real life, or in the wild, as you call it? It's like the bonobos.

• 18:34Speaker 06

  Um. I think if we can, if the communication is there, like, I, there are so many times when I keep waiting and waiting during the texting phase for the other person to just like ask me a question or make a comment specific to my profile. And if it's not happening, it's just I have zero interest in continuing. But if there's, a lot of times if there's like immediate sort of text, uh, good banter, good back and forth, fun.

• 19:02Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 19:02Speaker 06

  Um, then I'm excited to meet somebody in person.

• 19:06Esther Perel?

  So then you meet them the first time, and where do you meet?

• 19:13Speaker 06

  It's usually like, we'll get a drink, like at a bar, on the earlier side. So that if either of us wants it just to stay as like we met for a drink, we can do that. Or if it's going well, then we can sort of extend it and, you know, get some, get some food.

• 19:29Esther Perel?

  How do you know? How do you know and how do you communicate it?

• 19:34Speaker 06

  How do I know if I wanna stay?

• 19:35Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And how do you know? It's how do you know if you wanna stay? It's how do you know if they wanna stay? It's, because a lot of these things are sensed more than known, actually. They're physical, but not just physical in the attraction sense. They're physical as in they're embodied. They don't always get articulated in words. But you know when you're curious, you know when you're not in a rush, you know when you suddenly want another drink. You sense when there is a kind of a rapport between people. So describe it from what you experience.

• 20:18Speaker 06

  I actually think that there's like a difference between how well I can tell if I'm interested. I have a hard time knowing if somebody is interested in me that way. I have, there's almost always there's good conversation. I find it really easy to make conversation with people and I'm curious. I like to learn about them.

• 20:38Speaker 06

  And for me, the way that it turns in the direction of, oh, I'd like this to be more than just one drink is if they're curious about me. And like you said, there's like, there are things that are sensed if it feels like, you know, in a sort of embodied way, I'm a little bit on autopilot. If I find myself like just naturally like leaning into them, getting a little bit closer. There's like, you know, eye contact and, you know, some natural kind of flirtation going on, then I can tell, okay, I'm into this. It's a little harder and it's weird because my last few dates that I've gone on, I've sort of walked away thinking like, that was fun, that was cool, great conversation. I don't think they were into me.

• 21:22Speaker 06

  And then they came back and expressed interest and I was like, oh, that's surprising to me. So I don't know.

• 21:31Esther Perel?

  And then what did you do? You went back?

• 21:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, I'll almost always go, like if the first date is fine and if the conversation was good, I'm interested in just talking with people and getting to know them. So I'll almost always go back for a second date.

• 21:52Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

• 22:03Speaker 07

  You work hard for every dollar. So put those dollars to work for you with SoFi, the everything app for smarter money. With SoFi Checking and Savings, you can easily track your spending and saving while earning nine times the national average savings rate. Get paid up to two days early with direct deposit with no account or overdraft fees and earn a cash bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. Terms apply. Open your SoFi Checking and Savings account today at sofi.com/voxbank. SoFi Checking and Savings is offered through SoFi Bank, N.A., member FDIC.

• 22:44Speaker 08

  Support for today's episode comes from Delta, official airline of the National Women's Soccer League. Traveling is basically magic. It creates opportunities. It fosters understanding. It expands horizons. It connects people and communities to each other and to their own potential. Those are the values that drive Delta. With up to 5,500 daily Delta and Delta Connection flights to more than 300 destinations on six continents, Delta is committed to helping you explore your world. Whatever gives you the travel bug, Delta is here to help you get there. Visit delta.com for more info. Delta, wherever the journey takes you.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com/voxbank. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash voxbank.

• 24:09Esther Perel?

  Ali, tu as dit avant : "Mes amis sont fatigués." Je ne peux pas imaginer qu'ils soient fatigués si vous leur racontez des histoires de vos dates. Il y a les histoires amusantes, les histoires amusantes, puis il y a les histoires frustrantes, je suppose. Alors, combien de temps avez-vous passé, et c'est pour vous tous, dans votre vie de date comme étant séparé de la vie restante ? Vous abandonnez votre vie pour aller sur une date. Vous espérez que ça devient plus que une seule date. Si ça dure assez longtemps, à un moment donné, vous mettez cette personne dans votre vie.

• 24:53Esther Perel?

  Ça devient une sorte de révélation : "Je vois quelqu'un", vous vous y mettez. C'est un type de date très intéressant qui est en fait assez différent de la façon dont les choses étaient avant et de la façon dont ça se fait dans de nombreuses cultures où vous rencontrez des gens comme une partie de votre vie, avec vos amis. Ça est intégré. Et je vois tous les trois de vous rire.

• 25:21Esther Perel?

  Si la date ne fonctionne pas bien, vous avez eu du temps avec vos amis de toute façon. Au lieu de revenir de la date et dire : "Cette fois-ci, ça n'a pas fonctionné. Cette fois-ci, ça a été un doute, cette fois-ci ça n'a pas fonctionné, cette fois-ci c'était juste une perte de mon temps." Vous commencez à évaluer la date de manière très matérielle.

• 25:48Esther Perel?

  "Je n'ai pas fait ça avec mes amis, j'ai fait cette date et ça n'a rien fait." Et alors, la date prend un autre valeur. Maintenant, elle doit concurrencer avec ce que je peux avoir fait autrement. Et alors, ok, vous réagissez visuellement à moi. Je vais être calme et vous laisser dire ce que vous pensez.

• 26:18Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 26:19Esther Perel?

  Go ahead, Douglas.

• 26:20Speaker 04

  Um, oh, that well, well, tha- that's a lot, um, so. I understand that what you're talking about is is how dating is not integrated into our lives as a norm. But rather, it's it's something that we we do separate from our lives. And it's not necessarily fun for that reason. It feels a bit like a chore. It could. And I completely agree with you on this point, but I also try my best to. To have fun on these dates, right, um, even if it doesn't go well, to know that it was a a good learning opportunity.

• 26:56Esther Perel?

  Where do you meet on the first date? Where do you go?

• 26:59Speaker 04

  Uh, usually, I'm in in the Louis boat here. I like to go on a a walk, I like to, um. Nothing, nothing too intense, something where you can. Leave if you need to, um, and the other person doesn't feel trapped, I suppose. So, yeah, I try not to go for drinks because during the night time I'm very tired and drinks make me even more tired. And I feel like that seeps my energy quite a bit, so. Uh, I like to go on daytime dates, maybe grab a coffee, something like that, or an ice cream, go to the farmer's market. Those are my favorite ones.

• 27:39Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. Do you ever do? An activity, something that you enjoy, like the farmer's market, other activities, things you enjoy doing? What do you do when you're not on a date? What what are your activities, for example?

• 27:52Speaker 04

  Um, that's the thing. So on my Hinge profile, it says. For our second date, I like to do something active and and fun. Because I know for the first date, I would still be figuring this person out and what they like to do. Um, I don't wanna bring them straight into the things that I like, in just in case that they don't feel comfortable in that environment. For the second date, I'd like to invite them to. Depending on what comes up in conversation, I really like to climb, so I might invite them to the climbing gym. Or sometimes if we meet during the evening, oh, let's go to trivia night or something, or. I've had a really good date where we went to watch a movie, an outdoor screening, and that was really nice.

• 28:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, just depending on how that first interaction goes.

• 28:40Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. You know, the difference between a bar and a walk, there's many differences, but one of them is that you're moving.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 28:49Esther Perel?

  And there's a different way to experience presence, connection. Even a little bit of the anxiety of meeting a new person when you are in motion versus when you are seated. And um when you move, you are side by side. When you are at a bar, you are face to face.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:10Esther Perel?

  And side by side is a little bit like when people fish, you know, and they say all kinds of things to each other, but they're looking in ahead of them. Um, and I'm thinking of that because you use this interesting word. I want to make sure that nobody feels trapped as we are meeting. So this is such an interesting thing. I want to just make sure that there is an exit for everybody.

• 29:36Esther Perel?

  You know, so um. And I also noticed all three of you are on the extrovert side of the continuum. So it's you you you enjoy conversations. Is that accurate? Did I make a fair assessment?

• 29:52Speaker 04

  I say no. I'm gonna pretend it if I need to.

• 29:56Esther Perel?

  Okay, I I retract. I I totally.

• 30:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, I I I'm more introverted. I like being like one on one with people, but yeah.

• 30:07Esther Perel?

  No, because I see your faces. If I saw your faces on on the app, I would think outgoing, smiling, warm. I mean, that's what you exude right here on this uh on this Zoom thing. So I don't think of extrovert as big big amount of people, but more communicating, engaging with someone, express showing your curiosity, keeping eye contact, what you were saying, Ali, and things that you enjoy and you know, and they don't.

• 30:38Esther Perel?

  They don't create such tension. At least that's how it came across. But I'm happy to. Tell me about the pretending Douglas.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  I feel like I'm a bit of an introvert. And I'm not really that good at um making friends quickly. Or acting in a way such that it would make someone else feel comfortable, essentially. So when I'm out in the world, I'm out in, I'm out in social settings. I look at people and I think about the way they interact with me. And the things that I appreciate about those interactions, I try to mimic as best as I can.

• 31:18Esther Perel?

  Such as?

• 31:19Speaker 04

  Um such as just being super enthusiastic about um anything in my life. I know genuine curiosity, genuine curiosity is something that is is super attractive. And um it draws people to you. I uh personally, I'm not, I'm kind of a cynical person. So I find it difficult to be genuinely curious about anything or everything a person does or says. But I try, I try to think about people in their shoes and be genuinely curious about them. That's one example.

• 31:55Esther Perel?

  So what elicits your curiosity? How do you turn small talk into a date?

• 32:02Speaker 04

  How do I turn small talk into a date?

• 32:04Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:05Speaker 04

  Um assuming that this isn't already a date and we haven't agreed that.

• 32:11Esther Perel?

  The date in in this instance is the structure.

• 32:17Esther Perel?

  I picked someone from the app that seemed interesting enough. And I'm gonna go and meet them. That's the structure of the date. To see if I actually am really curious. If the plot can thicken.

• 32:36Esther Perel?

  From the one liner to a paragraph, to a chapter, to more than a chapter.

• 32:45Speaker 04

  I see. Well, I can't fake it in that case. Um, I actually have to be genuinely curious about this person instead of pretending. And those instances are few and far between, I'm afraid. I'm, uh, yeah, I'm only attracted to a certain kind of person, so. And when I am, it's, it's much easier and things flow and it, it feels good. But it's, it's, um, it's difficult to find that.

• 33:14Esther Perel?

  What kind of person or what kind of interaction? Because we are not just attracted to a person or a look, we're also attracted to an interaction. We become more curious because of the curiosity of the other toward us.

• 33:31Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 33:31Esther Perel?

  Or because of the questions they ask. Or because of the way they talk about themselves, or because of the way they listen.

• 33:41Esther Perel?

  Um, so there's a whole rapport, there's a whole interaction. In some way, the date is that. I mean, as this is not science, you know, there, there's many ways to define this thing, but part of what you're saying is, I know how to be polite. I know how to be courteous. And I, this is back to what Ellie was saying, I don't always know for sure if they're interested. I could imagine that when you leave, because of how kind and polite you are, people could think that you're more interested than you are.

• 34:20Speaker 04

  Maybe, but I also think that generally people are as kind and polite as I am. And that's, that's how I felt going on these dates, even if they, um, didn't pan out, everyone was equally respectful and kind and polite.

• 34:37Esther Perel?

  Nice.

• 34:37Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 34:38Esther Perel?

  Good, good, good.

• 34:43Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 34:56Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.

• 35:41Speaker 09

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 36:09Speaker 10

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors, great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 36:40Esther Perel?

  Do you ever stop? Do you ever say, "I've had enough? I'm done with this for a while? I need to meet differently? This is tedious," to use Ali's words?

• 36:53Esther Perel?

  "I've had it." Or do you have the same energy still that you have had from way back? You're shaking your head, Ali.

• 37:03Speaker 06

  The first one, yeah. I definitely like, I'll take breaks and...

• 37:10Speaker 06

  I'll take the, I'll pause the profiles and take the apps off my phone. Cause it just feels really discouraging after a while, um.

• 37:18Esther Perel?

  What is the thing that is discouraging? The not meeting a potential partner or the process itself?

• 37:27Speaker 06

  I think it's both.

• 37:30Speaker 06

  I think I don't know how to separate the two, um. Cause I haven't figured out how to meet a potential partner in a different way than using the dating apps. And so.

• 37:45Speaker 06

  I, you know, I keep thinking like dating apps two point O have to be coming sometime soon. Cause I don't think I'm alone in my frustration.

• 37:53Esther Perel?

  No, and what would you change?

• 37:56Speaker 06

  I don't know. I feel like I could make a million dollars if I knew.

• 37:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 06

  To that question.

• 38:03Speaker 06

  Probably, I mean, there's probably something about being in person with people and meeting. It, you know, being in the same space, like physical space as other people.

• 38:13Esther Perel?

  You speed date?

• 38:14Speaker 06

  I haven't tried it. I'm thinking about it, but I haven't tried it yet. It's hard to find speed dating events for people in my age range. It's for twenties and thirties and I'm, I'm getting close to fifty, so it's hard.

• 38:28Esther Perel?

  What would you change, Louis?

• 38:32Speaker 05

  Um, to set a little bit of background here, for example. To me, dating is not tedious. I actually do enjoy dating. And I enjoy the act of just going out and meeting people. I think that's also something that comes from my background. And the way, um, my family is, my family, they just enjoy meeting people in general. That's like one big thing about us. So after that, the way I see dating is, to me, I'm going into dating not looking for a long time partner. But I'm going into dating looking for a good interaction, a good conversation, a good moment. So that's kind of, I guess that's kind of what is hurting me sometimes in the long run because.

• 39:18Speaker 05

  I just go with, you know, with this big smile on my face, you know, with this. Just excitement of being there, of getting to know somebody that I haven't met before, you know, and.

• 39:29Esther Perel?

  Does the word love ever come in for you?

• 39:32Speaker 05

  No, actually, no. To me, dating is, it just feels like I'm meeting a bunch of friends. Somebody I can be friends with, somebody I can be partner with, somebody that can, you know. I have, I have no idea. So that's kind of the idea that I set myself into when I go into these dates and.

• 39:51Speaker 05

  I just go and I'm just looking for that, you know, and that's why I'm not really mad about it because, you know, sometimes. I go after one night, I had a really great night, we had some fun, we had some drinks, we walked, we talked. And sometime it could last a day, it could be a week. Of talking to somebody and then it feels as that, or it could be a month, or it could be two months, or it could be three months, you know, but. At the end, I'm always left kind of happy because I get to have an interaction with somebody. But at the same time, I'm just like, okay, I still haven't found the person I'm looking for, you know, but. And then it just repeat the cycle and I'm like, okay, you know what, next week will be nice because I'm gonna meet somebody.

• 40:34Speaker 05

  Just as as exciting as that previous person was. And I'm just gonna repeat that cycle again and again and again and again. That's kind of how my dating life goes and. My friend asks me sometimes, like, aren't you tired of going on all these dates? Aren't you tired of meeting all these guys? And I'm like. Not really, I mean, it's fun, it's nice, you know, I'm having a good time. You know, it's not necessarily the long-term relationship I'm looking for, but it's something, kind of. I don't know if that makes much sense, so.

• 41:06Esther Perel?

  I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm in a moment of frustration now myself. I have. A zillion questions for each of you, you know, I'm thinking, it seems such an interesting thing. You're talking about dating, but we haven't used the word love once. We're talking about dating, we haven't said the word sex once. Um, you, you, I, you did mention about the fizzling out and the people kind of not. Nobody writes to each other, but um, we haven't talked about ghosting.

• 41:41Esther Perel?

  What are doing the ghosting and are being ghosted.

• 41:47Esther Perel?

  So it's interesting that it's the way that the conversation is framed. Part of what you say is, I don't really get to be so disappointed because I line up the next potential candidate for the week after. And so I keep myself up with the curiosity and the anticipation of the next guy

• 42:15Esther Perel?

  on my screen. But if I stopped, the way Ali sometimes stops, I may also kind of get to the shadow side of this and begin to feel the tiredness, the disappointment, the transactional nature of it. And I think part of what has kept the word love out of it is the transactional nature. You know, all of you are emphasizing curiosity

• 42:41Esther Perel?

  because it's the one thing that is not transactional in what we've been describing. This is, it is a different sequence here. But what am I not including here that should be part of our conversation? Is there anything I haven't thought about

• 43:03Esther Perel?

  that you have had on your, the front of your minds?

• 43:08Speaker 04

  Well.

• 43:08Esther Perel?

  Ali?

• 43:09Speaker 04

  Do you want to go first, Ali? I think I've talked enough.

• 43:13Speaker 06

  Sure, I'll just briefly say that like there's something very different in my experience about dating at this stage of life than when I was dating younger, looking for a life partner, for somebody to, you know, have kids with and have a life with. This is, like, I don't have a rulebook.

• 43:32Esther Perel?

  You have children?

• 43:33Speaker 06

  I do, I have a ten-year-old and a fourteen-year-old. So, you know, I don't, I can't just, unfortunately, like, when I take time to go on a date, it really feels like, my time is limited. My free time, my leisure time is limited. And really, like, The person I'm going to meet from the dating app is competing against time that I can spend by myself, which I enjoy. Or with my friends, which I love. And so, you know, for me, I feel like I have to be really discerning. I I can't just keep like lining up date after. I don't want to. Like, I have a full life and people that I want to spend my time with. Um, so, you know, meeting a stranger and spending time with them, there's gotta be something like that feels worthwhile for me.

• 44:15Speaker 06

  Um, but like, like I was saying, like, I don't have a rulebook. Um, I'm kind of making it up as I go along, and that's very freeing in a lot of ways, because I don't have like my list. That I had when I was like twenty two. Um, but at the same time, I I have much less patience for for dating than I did twenty twenty five years ago. And, um, you know, something that I keep coming back to is, like, I just keep wondering, like, if I. Have if there's like something inherently incompatible between me and, um, you know, I date men, I'm. I'm heterosexual, like me and men of my generation, I just don't know if it's working.

• 44:56Speaker 06

  The one long term relationship I had was with somebody who was eleven years younger than me, and that worked. And. I don't know. I there's something really odd about dating. Men my generation where it feels like there's like a cultural mismatch between us and, I don't know.

• 45:17Esther Perel?

  You you don't meet anybody. In your life through the kids, through your friends, through other people who are. Who are have transitioned out of their first relationships or family relationships and.

• 45:34Speaker 06

  No, like anybody that I know who, you know, has gotten divorced or transitioned out of their. Long term relationships are, those are women and, you know, I'm not, they're they're my friends, so I'm not gonna stay. Friends with their now exes who are the men.

• 45:49Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:50Speaker 06

  Um, I work in a elementary school. It's mostly women around me. Um, and then through my kids, like, those are, you know, mostly intact families that I interact with through my kids. So I don't know what to do.

• 46:06Esther Perel?

  You were gonna say Douglas.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  Well, something that, well, you just talked about with Ali is interacting with people who are already in your life. Rather than strangers who you meet online, right? A lot of this conversation has been centered around. Uh, meeting strangers, uh, who you meet online through the apps. But I'm thinking about meeting people in real life, um, through the friends that we know or existing friends that we have who we might be interested in. I think that's um, something that's not talked about too much nowadays, just in general, because the dating apps are so prevalent. Right? I have people in my life who I'd be very interested in figuring out more about and going out with.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  It's just difficult to gauge what they think as well in the moments that I spend with them. Uh, so, yeah, navigating that has been a little bit challenging for me. Um, I'm pretty straightforward. I have asked out some people that I've been friends with. None of them panned out very well.

• 47:14Speaker 04

  But, yeah.

• 47:16Esther Perel?

  What am I missing, Louis? What isn't?

• 47:19Speaker 05

  Uh, so one thing that I've experienced is that with dating apps in general. And just like, you know, the world in general, like, everything is so close to reach, you know, nowadays. Yours, it's so easy to, you know, to meet somebody that's across the world and just like fly when I'm on vacation and go on a date with them. You know, it's so easy to have like, you know, this many people, you know, available. Like, right in your phone, you know, when you swipe, you know, if it doesn't work in, in Dallas, you in DC, if it doesn't work in DC. You're in LA, if it doesn't work in LA, you know, you're vacationing in, in Italy for the summer, you know, maybe might work there or something.

• 48:00Speaker 05

  Um, that's one thing that I'm not sure maybe people are equipped to deal with because, and I have faced this issue firsthand because. If it doesn't work here, or if I'm not happy with the result I have here, I'm always happy to just switch, you know, people are always moving all the time, people are always transitioning. So that's something that I think, um. People might wanna learn how to manage or maybe, I don't know, diagnose like what's going on like underneath and why they feel the need to do that, I would say.

• 48:29Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. I mean, we could definitely talk another hour together. It's such an important subject of the moment in so many people's lives.

• 48:40Esther Perel?

  Done in a way that we are just beginning to understand what it does to us. You know, I think Louis commented at the end about, you know, what does it do to our sense of self-worth, our sense of self-esteem, of how we feel commodified? Not here, but there. I don't like it. I switch. To what extent do we treat people sometimes a little bit like we treat products? You know, I I drop, I pick up, I examine, I I decide, no, not for me. Uh, and what does that do to us fundamentally? I mean, and as long as I stay busy, I don't have to think about it, basically. Then I I I keep, you know, I keep the adrenaline going.

• 49:25Esther Perel?

  And I get the dopamine hits and but when I stop, I may not feel as good about it. And I can't thank you enough, really. I'm really very thankful, very appreciative. Thank you so much for taking the time. You're welcome.

• 49:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, thank you, Esther. Thank you so much for your for your advice.

• 49:45Esther Perel?

  It's nice to meet you, Louis and Douglas.

• 49:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, nice to meet you. Thank you, Ali. Good luck.

• 49:50Esther Perel?

  Good luck to all of you, yes.

• 50:03Speaker 11

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting, to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at Odoo.com/vox. That's O-D-O-O dot com slash vox.

• 51:20Speaker 09

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you, based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.