You Are Having a Biological Experience: Tom Bilyeu on God, DMT & the Matrix in Your Skull

In this episode, I dive into my reaction to a thought-provoking video clip featuring Andrew Huberman and Steven Bartlett. The conversation focused on the way we shape our experience of reality, especially when it comes to questions of spirituality, religion, and the effects of altered states like psychedelics. One concept discussed was whether experiences like DMT trips or spiritual moments actually provide access to something beyond biology, or if they’re simply the result of neurochemistry—something I feel very strongly about. A key theme that emerged was questioning the literal truth of religious experiences and miracles. I explored my skepticism about whether anything truly occurs outside the laws of biology and physics, emphasizing that our brains craft our perception of the world, and that even the most awe-inspiring or seemingly miraculous events can usually be traced back to processes within us. The discussion also touched on how religion and awe may be evolutionary tools for cooperation and meaning, rather than evidence of a higher power. Several points were raised, including the dangers of confusing emotional reactions for truth, the importance of understanding we’re always having a biological experience, and the very real improvements people find in their lives when they adopt certain mindsets or practices like prayer or faith. Ultimately, this episode is an invitation to critically examine how we interpret our experiences—reminding listeners that while different mental frames can improve our lives, they are rooted in the biology that shapes everything we know and feel. Tailor Brands: Check out Tailor Brands to get started with your business today: https://bit.ly/TailorBrandsSept Quince: Free shipping and 365-day returns at https://quince.com/impactpod ElevenLabs: Book your demo at https://elevenlabs.io/impactpod Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code IMPACT at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/impact Ketone IQ: Visit https://ketone.com/IMPACT for 30% OFF your subscription order. Horizon.ai: Go to https://horizon3.ai/IMPACTTHEORY and request your free NodeZero demo. No commitment required. Results in hours, not weeks. Butcherbox: Go to https://ButcherBox.com/IMPACT https://butcherbox.com/IMPACT to get $20 off your first box, plus your choice of free ribeye, new york strip, or filet mignon in every box for a year — with free shipping always Quo: ​​Try for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months at https://quo.com/impact What's up, everybody? It's Tom Bilyeu here: Want my help starting a business? Join me here inside Zero To Founder https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show Sign up for my AI Masterclass: AI Masterclass https://tombilyeu.com/ai-masterclass?utm_campaign=Live%20Masterclass&utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=evergreen FOLLOW TOM: Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/ Tik Tok:https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en Twitter:https://twitter.com/tombilyeu YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tom Bilyeu?

  Let's talk about the moment your side hustle becomes a real business. Now, I see way too many founders stay stuck running their business like it's a hobby. And then they wonder why nothing ever feels real. It doesn't feel real because it's not. I've helped thousands of entrepreneurs build real businesses through Impact Theory University. And the first step in the path to building a legit business is registering it. And Tailor Brands will help you do just that in a few clicks. An LLC, a limited liability company, is an official business structure. It's inexpensive to form and very simple to maintain. It's how you open a business bank account. It's how customers know they're dealing with a real company. And Tailor Brands doesn't stop at the filing.

• 0:45Tom Bilyeu?

  Their dashboard tracks what comes next based on what your business actually needs. So EIN number, registered agent, licenses and permits, bookkeeping, business banking. I tell every founder the same thing. Just make it official. Click the link in the show notes to check out Tailor Brands and get started on your business today. This is a paid advertisement. What is the right frame of reference that you should have if you want to live your life well? Is God real? What does it mean the way that life brings us these miracles, these surprises? What does it mean to all of us? And if you fail to understand that, you will live your life in a lost perspective. And I feel that a lot of people look at the things that life served them and they have a very confused response. And so we're going to take a look at this one.

• 1:30Tom Bilyeu?

  I had a pretty strong reaction.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Took DMT?

• 1:33Speaker 02

  In a faraway land where it was very legal. Cause you know, I sit here and talk about these things and psychedelics. And I actually did work in a psychedelics company for about a year, but it was deeply, deeply fascinating. And the reason I was compelled by it is the efficacy as it relates to mental health. And the studies being done out of London around things like, you know, psilocybin and Ibogaine and DMT treatments. And I just thought, wow, you know, it's unbelievable. Some of the clinical data, I'd love to learn more. So I did a psilocybin and then I did a DMT and it was really just.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  I've not done DMT.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  You've never done DMT?

• 2:04Speaker 01

  No, no, I've done clinical MDMA and psilocybin. I think I'm done with that, not because I had a negative experience, but I got what I wanted out of it.

• 2:13Tom Bilyeu?

  All right, everybody needs to be very cautious with taking any substance that alters your mind. First of all, what I find is people take said substance with total disregard for what it might be doing to your brain. But let's just say for a second that it's perfectly safe from a health perspective. People get to the point where they're not able to replicate the insights. And the arguably the most important part of this is they somehow believe that they have transcended their biology. So you're doing a thing that is, that is interrupting, changing your biology. And the interpretation of that is actually there's a realm beyond my biology. That to me is the weirdest interpretation of this. Now, I understand everybody's going to say it's because I have not done this. I've microdosed psilocybin, so fair enough.

• 2:57Tom Bilyeu?

  I've never done a macrodose and it is entirely possible that on the other side of this, I somehow have an experience that is so profound that I too become convinced that I've transcended my biology. But I seriously doubt it from a cause and effect perspective. What you're doing is manipulating your neurochemistry. So I don't know why people manipulate their neurochemistry only to come out the other side and say neurochemistry doesn't matter. It's super wild to me.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  Tom, would you ever do psychedelics, DMT, mushrooms? Have you, what's your drug use history?

• 3:23Tom Bilyeu?

  I would consider it, I've resisted it up to this point because you're doing something extreme to your brain. And I do have certain fears, but yeah, I could see, I think it's probably more likely that I do it at some point than I don't. But I'm not rushing out to do it.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  And when I say like psychedelics, I'm talking like heroic doses.

• 3:42Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, that's what I mean. Cause I've already done microdosing.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Got it. DMT is extreme. What you do, psychedelics, whatever.

• 3:50Tom Bilyeu?

  DMT is probably the one that I would be the most likely to do because they're so short-lived.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:54Tom Bilyeu?

  Cause like 15 minutes.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:56Tom Bilyeu?

  So yeah, my bigger thing would be being stuck in some trip that is not fun for nine hours. I know somebody that did either LSD or acid. I don't know if those are one in the same, but.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  12 hour boys.

• 4:07Tom Bilyeu?

  They, they did one of those, dude, he felt for like a week. He said, life doesn't feel real. And he was like, if I feel like this forever, he's like, this is a real problem. Now thankfully it wore off, but I remember thinking, yo, that's scary. And so he was like, it altered something so profoundly. And he was like, for the first 72 hours, there was no declination. And so he's like, if I feel like this forever, man, this is, he's like, I'm a hundred percent nihilistic now. This is just, nothing matters, nothing is real. And I was like, yo, that, that is not something I want to play with. And given that you can, people can have psychotic breaks if they're on, you know, like in risk of it, at risk of it from like too much marijuana.

• 4:48Tom Bilyeu?

  So I'm just like, the thing that we consider like ultra safe, safe, safe can do that. I was like, something that people are like, listen, profound, useful in a lot of circumstances, but don't treat it like candy because it can, you know, have some really negative consequences. I'm pretty hesitant to just run out and do it.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  Got you. Terrance McKenna always said like set and setting are important. How you take it and where you take it is the matter.

• 5:10Tom Bilyeu?

  You know why?

• 5:11Speaker 03

  Why?

• 5:12Tom Bilyeu?

  Because you're having a biological experience. And if the neurochemistry you are pumping, you're already in a bad mood, you're already feeling negative. It's not like the drugs just completely wash that away. It can be the context that informs that instead of a good trip, this is a bad trip. Which is why people started mixing MDMA, which is, it just pumps the feel-good chemistry that it meant you were more likely to have a positive trip. So if I did it, I would probably also do something like that to just bias it towards something positive.

• 5:41Speaker 03

  Typical.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Be going in therapy during and therapy coming out of, of combination MDMA, psilocybin.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Do you know what? It's one of the things that made me think a lot about religion was having a DMT experience where what I experienced felt indistinguishable from this reality in terms of the vividness and the realness of it. And me just pondering this, this concept that a tiny little inhale of smoke could completely change my material reality. So therefore I concluded that my material reality is, is literally, but I mean, tell me if my logic's wrong, is a small amount of chemicals.

• 6:15Tom Bilyeu?

  Yes, literally. Your entire reality is a small amount of, it's not just chemicals, but it's neurochemical, electrical combination, your biology, it's the wet works that exist between all of our minds, all of our ears. So if you think about the reality of what's going on inside of your brain, you live in the matrix. Whether you live in the matrix simply because the brain exists and it is creating a representation of the world out there. It is not seeing accurately what is out there. Remember we only see 0.0035% of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. So we are living life by a bunch of shortcuts known as heuristics. We're using algorithmic approaches to the world. We are not interfacing with the world as it is.

• 7:00Tom Bilyeu?

  And this is one of the things that I think really messes people up. The, the thing that I want on my tombstone, literally, if I'm going to offer the world any idea or help popularize any idea, it is you are having a biological experience. And when people start trying to divorce themselves from that, they make their life entirely impossible to navigate. And this is one of the biggest problems that I see people having is for instance, in a populous moment, what people end up doing is they mistake their emotions, which are merely the neurochemical firings in their brain. They mistake it for a representation of truth. I feel badly about this thing, therefore it must be bad. There's nothing you can say to convince me because I feel a type of way. And so why would I even listen to this? It's obviously bad. I feel bad. It destroys relationships.

• 7:44Tom Bilyeu?

  It destroys people's ability to think through a political problem. It destroys people's ability to think through economic problems. $5,000 check feels good today, it must be good. And instead of thinking through the rational cause and effect of what's actually happening, they forget that they're having a biological experience. This is, this is going to rub people the wrong way. This is not a spiritual thing. This is a biological thing. Now, it doesn't mean that there isn't some elevated realizations that we can have. It is utterly fascinating to me that we all have the need to kneel before something. That religion obviously plays an evolutionary role. Those things are utterly fascinating. When you look at them through the lens of biology, it is far more profound, far more miraculous

• 8:28Tom Bilyeu?

  than when you try to divorce yourself from it and say, what DMT showed me is that there's actually a plane beyond this. That's where I think people start breaking down in terms of their worldview is nonsensical, quite literally.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Being uninterrupted. Does that make logical sense?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think about this way too much. I guess we are going to talk about psychedelics, reality and religion. Couple of short statements about this. I'm fascinated by this, so I'd love to hear you talk more about it. But here are a couple of ways that I think about it in a non-dismissive way. Most all of biology is just compartmentalized chemistry. So whether or not it's the flow of electricity along neural circuits to generate tenacity, for instance, or learning, you're just guiding chemistry in particular ways. Okay, that's not a way to trivialize it, it's kind of a way to think about it.

• 9:17Tom Bilyeu?

  Now, there's a lot that gets lost in that you're guiding because the reality is that your mind influences itself. This was a big part of what my whole mindset era was about, was getting people to understand that you can dramatically influence the way that you feel by the thoughts that you think. And so making sure that you're taking control of that process, not letting it just happen to you, that you're actually making a very conscious decision. The way that I say it is, I can't stop myself from having the first thought, that's just gonna come. But what I can do is stop what I repeat. And so, taking conscious control of your psychology is critically important.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  There are two ways that you can change brain function, behavior, and chemistry. One is mechanical. I can breathe differently. I can get a massage, right?

• 10:06Tom Bilyeu?

  By the way, taking control of your breath is one of the most life-changing things that you can do. Learning to breathe from your diaphragm is utterly fascinating. This is what I think a huge portion of the benefit that people get from meditation is simply learning to breathe from your diaphragm. As Huberman is intimating there, what you're doing is, it's a mechanical process that has like stimulatory effects in the body that over the long periods of time of evolution have been designed to allow us to reduce our excited state, to move out of the sympathetic nervous system, fight and flight, to the parasympathetic nervous system where it's rest and digest. You can mechanically move yourself from one to the other simply by breathing from your

• 10:49Tom Bilyeu?

  diaphragm, interrupting negative thoughts, and just breathing. It's, it is utterly fascinating. And when you learn how to do it, if you're anything like me, you will end up thanking evolution, the universe, whatever, for creating that hook that you can leverage just by breathing from down low in your belly, by, by drawing the air into your lungs using your diaphragm instead of breathing high up in your chest. It has a neurochemical effect. It is utterly fascinating.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  I could poke myself with a knife. Okay, so there are mechanical forces that change our physiology, and then there are chemical forces. Pharmacology, things we eat, and chemicals within us, serotonin, et cetera. That's really it. There's no other thing. In many ways, you're-

• 11:38Tom Bilyeu?

  Preach, brother, preach. There's no other thing. Your life is impacted by what you eat, how you sleep, how you're breathing, your exercise. Get those things wrong and your entire life goes off the rails. Get them right and everything gets better.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely right. It's compartmentalized chemistry, and mechanics and other chemicals are what control that chemistry. And I think organizing one's thoughts sometimes in that way can be helpful because you realize the stress response is really just a bunch of chemicals happening in certain places and so on. I personally am intrigued about the idea of things outside of our conscious understanding in biology that maybe things like DMT give us access to, or maybe just prayer gives us access to, or faith gives us access to. And it comes from my recognition, both as a neuroscientist and just a human who's been alive for 50 years and some change, that our biology and psychology, let's mold those

• 12:39Speaker 01

  together, are extraordinarily good at accomplishing certain things. But there are certain things that are outside the abilities of our psychology and biology. And if we are asking our psychology and biology to satisfy something that our psychology and biology simply cannot satisfy, we're going to miss out on a lot of potential meaning.

• 13:06Tom Bilyeu?

  Okay, so what I think he's getting to here is, one, he's making a cognitive error, and he's seeing this as something that's outside of our biology and psychology, which quite literally nothing exists outside of your biology and psychology, not for you in terms of being able to experience the world. But there is, I think, an evolutionary answer to a question of how you get humans to cooperate in large groups flexibly, and that answer is what we call religion. And that has placed inside of us this tremendous reward for communing with that thing that we see that's beyond ourselves. So, the people that did that, who could share that sense of awe, that could connect over,

• 13:50Tom Bilyeu?

  I mean, in the early days, obviously, it was not a monotheistic god, it was, you know, things around you, the sun, the moon, the changing of the seasons, the hunt, whatever. And so you have this entire pantheon of gods, this, it just felt like there's gotta be some force that's causing these things to act. And, I mean, in some ways there is, it's basically physics, but as you try, as you experience physics, you experience it as these individual relationships. I have a relationship to water, I have a relationship to the sun, I have a relationship to the crops or to the animals. And so, all of that then feels like, oh, these are individual forces. Because you don't understand chemistry yet, you don't understand physics. And so, that, from an evolutionary standpoint, the people that had that big response and

• 14:34Tom Bilyeu?

  shared that response and started doing things like, no, there's a right time to go on a hunt, because that's when the god of the hunt wants us to go on that. Or, love is an important thing, there's a god of love that's trying to drive us together, and so it's worth like overcoming the difficulties that come from that. And those created more stable societies. And so, we're literally selecting for people that are able to bond over that, to transmit values using that proxy. And we all now, in a monotheistic world, we all look back at people that believed in, you know, the pantheon of gods, the pagans, and we think, ah, ha, ha, how ridiculous that all is, not realizing it's the same evolutionary mechanism that makes us interpret

• 15:18Tom Bilyeu?

  the world through this shortcut, which is, I know there's something bigger than me because I can feel it. Now, I will say, I know there's something bigger than me because I don't understand physics. And so, at a minimum, physics, the universe, whatever you want to call it, there is a process that was put in place that it works in a way that when you learn it, you actually unlock powers of the universe and you could do things that you couldn't do before. So, it, it is a very real thing. Now, when people hold that frame, I think that they're less likely to get themselves in trouble than when they take the shortcut and they take a religious frame. Because then eventually somebody writes it down in a book, and then people start saying,

• 16:02Tom Bilyeu?

  well, you can only do this, this way because that's what God said. And when that book was written a couple thousand years ago and just offhand happens to mention slavery and it's all good, no worries, you start getting or stone somebody to death or whatever, it starts to derange a little bit. And so, we start running into problems. We're hitting pause for a moment, but there's plenty more ahead, so don't go anywhere. There's a reason Quince sells cashmere for $60, and it isn't the cashmere. It's real 100% Mongolian cashmere. It's the same stuff luxury labels charge a fortune for. Quince just works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So, there's no need for a markup and no logo tax.

• 16:44Tom Bilyeu?

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• 17:27Tom Bilyeu?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Impact Theory. It's the best way to support the show. Let's talk about what it means to actually be visible in today's day and age. When you build something public, whether it's a business or an audience, anything on social media, you become a target. This is something that legitimately keeps me up at night because our data isn't just on the obvious broker sites, it's on old news portals, public forums, obscure directories, places you would never think to look. That's where Incogni's exposure scanner comes in. It hunts down your personal information across the wider web, not just the 420-plus broker sites. Incogni already removes your data from automatically.

• 18:11Tom Bilyeu?

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• 19:33Tom Bilyeu?

  Thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action.

• 19:37Tom Bilyeu?

  But if you come back to, wait a second, there is this thing that allows me to access a drug-like quality, a sense of awe and wonder, but I realize what it's coming from. And so there are things that I need to align myself with in order to experience that, whether that's being calm, whether that's doing something like a loving meditation, where you're imagining like a bubble of love and acceptance expanding out from you to your family, to your friends, and then to everybody in the world. And that really gives you this sense of expansion and calm and peace and joy. Hey, love it. But understanding it's a physiological process that you're putting yourself through to tap into something that is evolutionarily gifted to you. I for one am somebody who likes to know how the

• 20:22Tom Bilyeu?

  magic is done. When I see how the magic is done, it's more interesting to me, not less. I get that for a lot of people that they're gonna hate the way that I approach this, but I think it saves us from certain derangements that we are captured in right now. Thinking that there really is this thing beyond you and that these emotions are essentially being given to you as a source of truth or something from an all-powerful being outside of yourself is how we end up in a populist moment going, we need revolution.

• 20:49Speaker 03

  I really want to get to, how do you explain miracles? Things that aren't in the physiological, things that aren't in the biological, things that defy science.

• 20:55Tom Bilyeu?

  There aren't any.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  There's never been a miracle in life.

• 20:57Tom Bilyeu?

  Never once.

• 20:58Speaker 03

  Really?

• 20:58Tom Bilyeu?

  Never, ever.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  Man, okay. That's a mind shock to me. Okay, cool.

• 21:04Tom Bilyeu?

  The only quote-unquote miracle is why is there something instead of nothing? That's it. Everything else is a law of physics we don't yet understand.

• 21:13Speaker 03

  Why is there something instead of nothing?

• 21:15Tom Bilyeu?

  Yes, that question is truly perplexing and is the thing that reminds me, I do not understand what this is. And so if Jesus like waltzed up in the room and was like, "Bro, you know that there's something you don't understand in miracle miracle right before your eyes?" I'd be like, "Oh shit, crazy." Now, that would obviously have to like be the most extreme thing, because my first assumption would be, "Oh, I'm schizophrenic." But assuming you could somehow get me on the other side of that.

• 21:42Speaker 03

  But these like one-off cases of like people dying, coming back, cancer disappearing, all those things, they're just secret medicine that people don't realize, biology, biology we don't understand.

• 21:52Tom Bilyeu?

  That is correct.

• 21:53Speaker 03

  Chemistry that hasn't been explained yet. There's always something that comes back to.

• 21:56Tom Bilyeu?

  Every single time.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  Nothing has ever happened outside the physical that I can't see measure or test.

• 21:59Tom Bilyeu?

  Nothing has ever happened outside of that is correct. Well, that you can't see measure or test. Many things happen that you can't see, measure, or test. But I'm saying in the fullness of time, you'll be able to, assuming that we continue to grow more intelligent, get better tools. Yes, what I'm saying is, life operate, life is deterministic. It operates on a set of principles. Nothing ever violates those principles. Now, there are things we don't understand about those principles and they act in some pretty crazy ways that we just don't get yet. But yes, there are no such thing as miracles.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Cool.

• 22:28Tom Bilyeu?

  In life. And what I, to be very direct about it, like at the point where I decided to really embrace the idea of faith of a God, right? That there are powers outside of human understanding.

• 22:39Speaker 03

  Yes, that is true.

• 22:40Tom Bilyeu?

  That can be very useful. Everything got better. But just to be clear, there's a difference between outside of human understanding and outside the laws of physics. It relieved me of the pressure to control everything internally and externally. And I find it not just intriguing, but absolutely captivating, that a force outside of us, some people call it God, the universe, right? Some people might think it's Jesus, some people might think it's something else, might actually hold some power in how we could potentially behave, be better. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there's this thing planted in us, or some of us, which is a question about things outside of us, that if we were

• 23:25Tom Bilyeu?

  to embrace, could allow us to get to a better place as a species? Why would we think that a technology like AI would do that? AI is wonderful, but why would we think that it would come from computers? That's of... Okay, so I love Andrew Huberman more than you can know, Andrew. You know, I love you. This is the wacky thing that you say in all of this. Why do we think that it could come from a computer? Let me give you the answer. Because this is somebody over-indexing again on the artificial and not the intelligent side. The reality is, once you get to the intelligent side and you can actually just start understanding what the laws of the universe actually are, not our shortcuts, not our, it's roughly something like, but like actually understand, then the intelligence is the very thing

• 24:10Tom Bilyeu?

  that allows us to begin to develop a better understanding of this. Now, ultimately, the understanding of it is only useful in as much as it makes the experience of it better and more interesting. So at the end of the day, you're having a biological experience. So you're gonna go on an emotional roller coaster. If as we understand the laws of the universe, it simply allows us to kill each other, that would be wholly uninteresting. If it opens us up to a deeper sense of awe, a deeper sense of connection, if it helps us navigate some of the trickinesses of the world, then that would be awesome. But here's where I think people start really disconnecting. Okay.

• 24:49Tom Bilyeu?

  The world is very, very complicated. And some of the discrepancies that we have with people are not going to be solved by somebody waking up to, "Oh, the world doesn't work the way that I thought it did." The discrepancies, for instance, when they're theological, I find that that's an easier conflict to talk about. So if people believe in different gods, they believe in different aughts. So they believe from a moral standpoint that things ought to be, and they believe that they believe diametrically opposed things. So they're not arguing about what is. They're just saying what ought to be. They say, "I understand your position. I understand you believe it ought to be that way, but this is my position and I believe it ought to be this way." Understanding the fundamental

• 25:33Tom Bilyeu?

  physics of the world is not going to help people out of that scenario. The only thing that will help people out of that scenario is if you can change the fundamental way that that feels for them as they think about it. Now, some of this is just where they were raised. So they're gonna, if they're prone to an increased level of religiosity, and they're raised in a fundamentalist household, you put that together and it's, you know, sort of weapons-grade religion, if you will. And when two weapons-grade religion people see different things, they're going to end up colliding. So the only way that those two people are not going to collide is if you go in and edit their genomes such that they are less likely, they're less prone to the religious. So no matter what, because

• 26:17Tom Bilyeu?

  if we all have a God-shaped hole in our heart, and that person is prone to religiosity, they don't have to believe in a God, they can believe in communism and Marxism, whatever. And you see people get just as fundamentally religious about that, or it can be climate science, they get fundamentally religious about that, or the economy, they can get fundamentally religious about that. But you have to diffuse that tendency towards religiosity. It isn't about like, "Oh, I finally understand something from outside myself." You're having a biological experience. That new understanding is still going to be interpreted through the way that you as a biological creature process that information. And it's gonna drive you to behave in certain ways. And this is, I think, a fallacy that people make

• 26:59Tom Bilyeu?

  of like, "No, no, no. If you just understood, you would respond differently." And this is where I'll say, "Go and find a spider sexually attractive." You're not going to be able to do it. And you're not going to be able to do it because you're trapped inside your biology and you are hardwired to find them repulsive. So it just is what it is. And what I think he's getting at here is he is a person that has a very expansive, sort of loving, welcoming personality. And if other people felt what he feels when he kneels before this thing, or encounters this sense of awe, or recognizes that there's something bigger than himself, if everyone felt what he feels, the world would be a better place. That is almost certainly true. But the question is, how do you actually

• 27:44Tom Bilyeu?

  get everybody to feel that? You don't, unfortunately. What evolution has learned is you can't have everybody be the same. You need these competing, different personalities that hold each other in dynamic tension that unfortunately sometimes explode into cataclysmic violence.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  There's gonna be one person that fucks spiders. That's gonna blow up your whole obsession.

• 28:01Tom Bilyeu?

  It's not, because listen.

• 28:03Speaker 04

  It's an actual thing. It's paraphilia.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  So it's just gonna be somebody that like, "I love spiders, Tom. What do you mean? Free will does exist."

• 28:09Tom Bilyeu?

  No, no, no. If you said to me, "Hey, Tom, I have an 11-year-old, and you've got to get them to only be able to have an orgasm when spiders are crawling on their legs, that we could do. But if you bring me a 40-year-old who right now hates spiders, I'm not gonna be able to get you to the other side where they're suddenly like, 'Oh my God, like, this is the hottest thing ever. I only want to marry a spider.'" So, and look, will there be exceptions at the edge? Probably. But then that would be that human sexuality is more complex than I'm giving it credit for. It is not free will. So that's where I just wanna make sure, to give you an idea, what I would do with a 14-year-old is begin to associate neuronal connections between sexual arousal and introduce the spider. So I'm doing a biological act. The same thing with the 40-year-old. What I'm

• 28:54Tom Bilyeu?

  saying is somebody can't just go, "I'm now gonna decide to find this spider attractive." What they would have to do is walk down a biological process of reinforcement. And then you're just proving my point again.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  But I feel like women decide they want to be lesbians. I've seen people change sexuality and stuff later on in life. So nobody wants to be

• 29:10Tom Bilyeu?

  True, now.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  Sexual to a spider. So that's why I'm like, you can use that exists, but that's a 0.1% of people who even want to do that.

• 29:17Tom Bilyeu?

  I will happily go down that path if you want. What I'm saying is, that is not stepping outside of biology. There is an evolutionary reason. It's a hypothesis. I don't think anybody would say it's the thesis.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 29:27Tom Bilyeu?

  But there's a biological hypothesis about why women are more likely to be bisexual than men. And if you think about it, women are far more tied to communal needs. So they've gotta like group up as women, raise the kids. So they are not interacting with the world through a physical dominance lens. They express their dominance, their aggression, their violence through social means. Okay, so you've got a creature then that's gotta be able to have these ways to self-soothe. Don't think about humans for a second. Think about us coming up, you know, over millions of years of evolution. The fact that the clitoris is on the outside is utterly fascinating, because the only way to get them pregnant

• 30:11Tom Bilyeu?

  is to penetrate them as deeply as possible to be up against the cervix, which is why men have the evolutionary impulse to thrust as deeply as possible at the moment of orgasm. Okay, so you've got, "I need to make this thing have a baby." And then there's the weird twist of, "But the clitoris is on the outside. Why on earth would we do that?" And one hypothesis is...

• 30:32Tom Bilyeu?

  That women can actually smooth over social frustrations with other women by accessing the clitoris and soothing each other in either a sexual or sort of pseudo-sexual way. And you see this in the animal kingdom. So it, from that perspective, the fact that a woman would be like, there are no men left in the village, they all just got killed in war, but I need somebody to help me raise this kid. Thank God my clitoris is on the outside, I don't need a penis, I can group up with another woman, we can have a more deep connection, we can have the sexual bonding and raise this kid together. And so it would make sense for a woman to just have a deeper degree of flexibility in the first place, and then on top of that, that it could express later in life in the way that for a man, it's typically, by the time he's 14, his sexual fetishes are on lock.

• 31:16Tom Bilyeu?

  And so, and this is where I expect this debate to kind of rage, I think people are gonna find that even male sexuality is malleable to some degree, but it's really an early life phenomenon thing, so it does matter sort of what way you nudge your kid in early age. Debate, debate, debate, that is not me saying this is true, and I know it to be, I'm just saying, I'd be a little surprised if they don't find that to be true. So, but it does appear that male sexual proclivities get locked in around the age of 14. So they're then gonna carry that into adulthood, and they won't show flexibility as an adult that they didn't have at the time they were 14. So if at 14, they're like, hey, I feel bisexual, that's probably gonna carry with them their whole life. But if at 14, they're, you know, pegged over onto the straight spectrum, that's probably where they're gonna be forever.

• 32:01Tom Bilyeu?

  In a way that women might find themselves surprised to actually, no, I do find that woman attractive. Anyway, that was a real fucking tangent, but uh...

• 32:08Speaker 03

  I got there, I got there because you said we can't change what we're sexually attracted to, I immediately went, well, people wanna be sexually attracted to other people.

• 32:15Tom Bilyeu?

  I wanna be clear, clear, clear on what I'm saying. You aren't going to be able to exit biology to change what you're attracted to. If you're going to make a change of any kind, you're gonna have to do it through a biological process. I'm saying you can't use quote-unquote "free will" to just suddenly be attracted to spiders. It won't work. You'd have to like go down this super loopy process of trying to like reinforce, reinforce, reinforce, hijack certain biological processes in order to get there.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  Why do, why is the male G-spot in the butt then? What's the evolutionary explanation for that?

• 32:46Tom Bilyeu?

  Um, I have a feeling that that is probably rightly contested as being a G-spot. Having had a proctal exam, I'm not like, yo, this is dope. Um, so...

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Was his hands not moisturized enough?

• 32:58Tom Bilyeu?

  I mean, maybe that's part of it, maybe his hands were too big or too small, I guess it's all possible.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  Welcome to the news show, guys.

• 33:05Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah. So, that, I, and listen, you can't rule it out, but I have, uh, so at one point, I mean, this is way TMI, but at one point I had a prostate infection, which you can actually get, which were not fun, by the way. Uh, and so they have to like palpate your prostate, it is not a fun thing.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  What does palpate mean?

• 33:25Tom Bilyeu?

  It's a touch. Uh, and it, it is not, it was not an enjoyable experience for me. Now, that could be pure context, and maybe in the right context it'd be lovely, but I've never found myself with that impulse. So I have a feeling that this is probably, okay, so this gets into something called lordosis. Um, so there is, God, these are, these are better understood as hypotheses, because I've not looked far enough to know if they're actual feces, but at one point I read a study, whether this was, um, really studied well or not, I cannot say. But so, women have, um, a, it feels good for them to arch their lower back. Now, the reason that that would feel good is in a, in certain sexual positions, arching

• 34:10Tom Bilyeu?

  your back gives the man the ability to penetrate the deepest. And so you would understand why evolution would essentially reward or hardwire women that have the desire to arch their back. The study said, again, whether this was well researched or not, I can't tell you, but the study said that gay men have the same impulse to arch their back, their lower back. So it could be like cross wiring, that there's something, given that men pass through the female before they become expressly male, so at first you develop a vagina and a clitoris, and then it develops into the male genitalia, uh, which is how you can get cross-sex people. So, anyway, it could just be like sort of cross wiring with that, that there's some sort of remnant of that, I have no idea, though.

• 34:53Tom Bilyeu?

  That one I haven't, um, explored deeply enough. But my gut instinct is it would be something like that, that one, it would be contested that most people aren't gonna be like, yeah, that's my favorite thing. Um, and that for the people that are, it could be some remnant of that, but I don't know.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Right? Why would we think it would come from anything that humans and only humans could do? To me, the embracing the notion of a God and having faith, which by the way is about having doubt but still doing the, the things, the practices, prayer, is like, to me, one of the most liberating and educating thing, not just about stuff of God and the universe, but about the human brain. Okay, I've got some questions. Yeah, I mean, it's like, we're not meant to solve this on our own. Do you believe in God? Absolutely. When did God come into your life? I really wanna know, what God dost thou believe in?

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Very early, but I was very good at suppressing the notion that it was real. Like, I would pray in private, I would hide it, and, um, and not just in bad times. And then, I think I lived enough and observed enough hardship, we've talked about some of this on a previous podcast, I talk a little bit about that in the book, but, but I observed it out there too, not just in my own life, that I, I started to realize, especially if you stick your hands in enough brains, and you see my good friend Eddie Chang record from the brain of a, a wake human, and remove a tumor and save that person's life, and you also realize that brain areas are controlling things, because when they're stimulated, that

• 36:29Speaker 01

  person feels and responds in a certain way, you realize that we're not all meat and potatoes in there, there's...

• 36:34Tom Bilyeu?

  What? That is literally a direct contradiction. He's saying, once you realize that the brain is in control, once you realize you can poke this and you get a given response, once you realize that there is a tumor, a bad thing growing in the head and you remove it and that saves our life, that you realize that it isn't all biology? What? Uh, those are literally exact opposites.

• 36:54Speaker 03

  You don't think that there's like, because everything is so deterministic, and something is so real said, and it's something is so deliberate, that it couldn't just be accident or random or spontaneous? Because accident, random, and spontaneous hugely doesn't create systems as complex and as detailed as what we see in the world today.

• 37:10Tom Bilyeu?

  The, the only argument that you could make is that, okay, everything is good and proper random, like there's, there is nothing but randomness. But in the randomness, in this local pocket of the multiverse, um, the, what we call the laws of physics are simply random distribution, and so this is the most likely universe that we see around us, and so humans are most likely to respond in this way if they have brain matter that's structured that way, but they're actually not tied, it's all correlation. Okay, but that is like the least Occam's razor thing I've ever seen in my life, that is adding a layer of bizarre complication to something that we have no evidence for whatsoever.

• 37:53Tom Bilyeu?

  Um, so, yeah, what we see is cause and effect as far as the eye can see. And so to take from that, oh, but really this could just be, even though I can directly predict that if I remove somebody's brain, they die instantly, that the brain wasn't actually keeping them alive? It's like, that's super weird.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Something else, but I'm not sure that it all comes from us, it's, it's sort of hard to explain. The, the best way I kind of wriggle out of this is that, I, I brought my dad on my podcast. My dad and I, for many years, had a choppy relationship, we have a great relationship now, he's 83 years old, he's super vigorous, he loves ideas, he's into quantum, you know, quantum computing, and he, he's a theoretical physicist, right? And I asked him to explain quantum mechanics. I go, yeah, like, tell my audience how relativity works. He worked on chaos theory, okay? Tell us how chaos works. And he said, I'll do that, but you have to understand that one of the most important

• 38:53Speaker 01

  things about understanding quantum mechanics is that early on, you are told, and you learn that the human brain can't wrap its head around quantum mechanics with logic, with the, with human understanding, you have to rely on the math. And he says, anyone who talks about the quantum field, who can't show you the math, can't show you the proofs, is lying. He loves it when people are like, oh, the quantum this and the quantum that, it's often is in like the meditative communities.

• 39:18Tom Bilyeu?

  Agreed, man. It drives me nuts when people say quantum as if it means magical, or it's some sort of proof, that's wild.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Others too. And he goes, people throw this word around because very few people actually understand quantum biology. There's gaps, there's some logic, but there's gaps in their logic that the math doesn't line up with, and the math doesn't lie. So, what he was saying, and we were having a discussion about God, and he said, yeah, at some point, if you're gonna have faith in a higher power, God, you have to depart this notion that your logical brain can go from A to B to C, and boom, you're there.

• 39:52Tom Bilyeu?

  I, I will grant him that. There, again, why something instead of nothing, I cannot do a logical track to that, I cannot find any answer that doesn't require some sort of like, just logic completely lets go, and I just have to accept that it is. Um, so, yeah, totally agree.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  But in quantum mechanics, it's the same thing. But on the basis of quantum mechanics, you can build stuff, you can engineer stuff in the real world, like that red light, or a rocket. Are you saying that you don't know all of this? There's no math to prove this thing that I call my, the existence of God, there's no math, and it's not worth torturing yourself over.

• 40:29Tom Bilyeu?

  The math either exists, or it's not real. So math is the computation of the universe running itself. If you have something sitting outside the universe, which you almost certainly have to, because why something instead of nothing, um, then it's just a, all bets are off at that point. There's no way for us to grapple or even interact with what that thing is, we can only interact with the, um, output of the system.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  What I believe is worth torturing yourself over...

• 40:58Speaker 01

  And there's also great beauty in there is embracing the practice of prayer, embracing the questions and like opening the aperture of your beliefs just for a moment. Going, maybe I'm going to just believe in God for 10 seconds. See what that's like. And I started to experience beauty and experience peace around not trying to control things that obviously were not under my control, not just within me, but in other people.

• 41:22Tom Bilyeu?

  All right, here's what I love. He's got a, he's changing his frame of reference and merely by changing his frame of reference of deciding to believe in God, it makes his life better. Now, there's something incredibly important to take away from that, which is how you decide to look at the world is going to determine the quality of your life. Einstein is, whether it's apocryphal or not, he's often quoted as saying,

• 41:46Tom Bilyeu?

  "The most important decision any person will ever make is whether they live in a friendly or a hostile universe." Now, what's brilliant about that is he's saying it's a decision. You decide. There's evidence for both. So you decide whether this is a universe that's working for you or a universe that's working against you. So please don't think that I'm saying that believing in God may not make your life better. It may like, may make your life materially better. What I don't want people to lose sight of is that ultimately that you, what you're doing is with that belief, you're having an influence on your biology. And ultimately, the influence on your biology is the part that matters. So that people can stop themselves from getting swept away by fundamentalist ideology,

• 42:31Tom Bilyeu?

  which can take people into some pretty dark directions. That has to do with broadcasting my religion onto other people. And that's where I think we run into real problems.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  And I really started to see what I could only describe as miracles. And by miracles, I mean, I would pray for some indication of what the right path might be on something, where it wasn't clear to me. And then, two or three days later, something would happen, which would like, seem almost completely unrelated, and the answer would come in that scene.

• 43:02Tom Bilyeu?

  All these kinds of things are absolutely true and wonderful and need nothing more as an explanation other than that's how the subconscious mind works. It is processing things in the background. And so when it sees something that triggers that cascade of thoughts and gives it the thing to interact with that it needs in order to put the final piece together of the puzzle, it feels like, oh my God, this completely unrelated thing, it was sent to me by God. But the reality is, what's happening in the subconscious mind is we are a action-reaction species. Something happens and then we react to it. And that's why I say we have no free will. There's no way to extricate yourself from that sequence of cause and effect.

• 43:46Tom Bilyeu?

  And so your brain oftentimes needs to see some sort of new stimulus in order to come up with the answer. And that's why talking about something can be really helpful. Reading a book about something can be really helpful. People will often say that some of the greatest solutions to problems come from polymaths, because they have multiple things to draw from. So in architecture, you might draw from your art background. Your art will draw from what you understand about architecture. And same with medicine, right? Artists also being, learning so much from dissecting a cadaver. It's like you're taking in these different disciplines and they feed into each other. This happened to me when I went from Quest Nutrition into the world of comic books,

• 44:29Tom Bilyeu?

  because I could see that the distribution method in comic books was so ridiculous, it was bound to fail. And that's why I ended up getting out of comics, because I was like, until you guys solve the distribution problem, this whole industry is just going to be a mess. And I wouldn't have known or understood that had I not just come from an industry that had extraordinary advancements in distribution that were, I mean, 50 years more advanced than what was going on in comics. It was insane. So having those different points of interaction will feel like, oh my God, I've been handed this thing from out of nowhere. But it's really, that's what your brain does. It connects these far-flung ideas.

• 45:09Tom Bilyeu?

  It's actually one of the reasons that people like to meditate is you get in a calm, creative state where literally you can map what's going on in the brain. What's going on in the brain is areas of the brain that don't normally talk to each other, start talking to each other. So it's not a silencing of activity in the brain. It's actually an increase. It's pretty fascinating.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Just locked in. I'm like, listen, I'm a disciplined guy when I really want to be. I'm going to pray every night before I go to sleep. If I fall asleep, I'll get out of bed and pray when I, if I wake up in the middle of the night. I've not missed a night in nearly three years. I was recently invited up to Stanford Deva Talk with Arthur Brooks, who's a lifetime Catholic. He's in mass every morning, you know? He and I have very different experiences of God and religion. My family was mixed religion. I got to sit up there and just say, listen, I'm going to tell you that I for sure am the person who's least knowledgeable, least versed in this room. But what I can tell you is my experience with prayer. What I can tell you is what I've observed in myself when I opened the aperture for faith.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  The reason I did that talk is because our former director of neurosciences at Stanford had written to me and said, "I think you should consider talking to this group." And he did some of the most important experiments in the history of neuroscience, linking neuronal activity to perception. It really showed that if you stimulate certain brain areas, people perceive things a certain way, regardless of what's happening out in the-

• 46:29Tom Bilyeu?

  So you're saying that you're having a biological experience?

• 46:31Speaker 01

  The world. Like, there's a brain area I could trigger right now, and I could show you a movie of a bunch of dots moving up, and everyone here would be like, they're moving up. And if I tickled the right neuron in your brain, you'd say, "They're going down." And I'm like, "That's wild." Then I turn it off and you'd say, "Oh yeah, of course they're going up." Your understanding of the world is an abstraction that occurs inside your skull on the basis of photons that come in through your eyes, sound waves that hit your ears, mechanical forces that hit your skin, and chemicals that go in your nostrils and in your mouth. And then you create, you abstract reality in here.

• 47:06Tom Bilyeu?

  That is such a brilliant description of exactly what's going on. When I'm talking about you're having a biological experience, this is what I'm trying to convey. Once you understand that, then you can begin to parse your reality a little bit better, because you understand that this is an approximation, that you're constructing this world. And just like in The Matrix, it's very easy to get lied to. It's very easy to see something that isn't really there. This is exactly what happens to people. And I'm, I'm going to wrap this up by saying this. The reason that I wanted to go through and show this is we are living in a time right now where everybody is convinced that that matrix, that simulation that's going on inside their brain is real. And they're mistaking a simulation, they're mistaking interpretation,

• 47:49Tom Bilyeu?

  they're mistaking frame of reference for objective reality. And it is being weaponized against them. And people that understand that know how to control that approximation, that simulation that plays in their brain, and point them at something that benefits that person. And all of us have a responsibility to ourselves to be able to get outside of that as much as possible and actually see things for how they really are, which is that I'm interpreting the world. I'm not seeing it directly. And if one interpretation takes me to a better place, then it's wise to lean on that interpretation, because it's actually going somewhere more honorable, that it's taking the world in a better place if we head in that direction.

• 48:29Tom Bilyeu?

  But if I think that because I feel something, it is real, and I'm losing sight of what's actually happening, which is I am trapped inside of my biology, and my biology controls not most of what I see, it controls all of what I see. And even if you believe that there is a God, God built it that way, for whatever reason. And so that is the reality that we face. And it has upsides and it has downsides. The human experience is incredibly beautiful and incredibly tragic in equal measure. And so, understanding that we are prone to beauty and we are prone to the horrific, and each of us, as I say, the line between good and evil runs through every human heart, because such is the nature of biology.

• 49:13Tom Bilyeu?

  It paints things like in-group, out-group. It makes you prepared to be violent and to other people that are in the out-group to dehumanize them. All of those things are in your biology. And unless we start altering that biology, we have to deal with the way that that really works. And if we can do that, we've got a much better shot at getting to the other side of this populist moment. But if we don't realize that, and we don't start actively broadcasting hope, seeing hope inside of ourselves, saying, "This is where I want to go," and turning it into a plan. They say that hope is not a plan. Yes, but hope is necessary to get you up, to get you to say, "Okay, cool. This is where I want to go." Map out exactly how we're going to get there and then get there. And hopefully, not succumb to a lot of the traps.

• 49:58Speaker 05

  Got it. Cool.

• 49:59Tom Bilyeu?

  All right, we have any super chats? We good?

• 50:01Speaker 05

  We've got one super chat left.

• 50:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Let's hear it.

• 50:03Speaker 05

  Harmonious Reason says, "Where do you sit in regards to grand design versus natural evolution?" And that's a $50 super chat.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  Hey, thank you for the $50 super chat. Appreciate it.

• 50:11Tom Bilyeu?

  Thank you. Very generous. Grand design versus what?

• 50:15Speaker 05

  Natural evolution.

• 50:16Tom Bilyeu?

  Oh, well, so if grand design is like, basically God did this, so we're a product of evolution, yes, but we're a product of a designer, I would say there's no evidence for that. So either God is a horrible engineer, or we are just made by the blind watchmaker. And if you want but one example, if we were designed by God, the vagina would open painlessly like a trunk door to let the baby out, rather than fucking torture the woman. It is ridiculous that that thing has to like squeeze down to deal with a penis that a man can actually carry around.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  We're not supposed to be giving birth on our backs. That was some creep dude in his twenties that made that normal. If you, when women have birth like squatting and standing up, there's no ripping.

• 51:02Tom Bilyeu?

  I, I don't think anybody's like, no, if you stand up, like, this is easy. I don't think anybody's saying that, given that childbirth is one of the most dangerous things you could do from a historical perspective. Like, that's pretty bad engineering. Like, hey ladies, the only way to push the survival of the species forward is to have kids. But by the way, I'm going to kill 50% of you that do it. What? So-

• 51:21Speaker 03

  Tom's like, "Let me roll up my sleeve, guys. I got this. I can do this better. I can do this better. Come here."

• 51:26Tom Bilyeu?

  Here's the thing, I couldn't do it better, because there would be unintended consequences that I would create. But if there was really a all-knowing God, could an all-knowing God do better? Yes, an all-knowing God can do better than 50% mortality rate before modern medicine.

• 51:42Speaker 03

  Who's the guy from The Odyssey, what's his name? The main character from The Odyssey?

• 51:45Speaker 05

  Odysseus?

• 51:46Speaker 03

  Odysseus. That was real Odysseus of you.

• 51:49Tom Bilyeu?

  I just said, the humility? Because I'm saying, I don't, I don't think I could do it. I'm saying, an all-knowing God-

• 51:56Speaker 03

  You messed this up, bro. Do it over, do it over. Start over.

• 51:58Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm saying, he doesn't exist.

• 52:00Speaker 03

  I need, I need trunk keys on vaginas. I need clitorises to be on the inside. I need men not to check my a-hole just to make sure I don't have cancer. I have notes, God.

• 52:09Tom Bilyeu?

  It, it, well, so one, if we could make the anal checking far more enjoyable, that would be lovely, as that unfortunately becomes a thing. Drew has not accurately represented my beliefs. I would just like the record to reflect here. But yeah, this stuff is important. It matters, boys and girls, so make sure you're thinking through it well. Let's talk about a pattern that is guaranteed to be killing your progress. You know what you need to do. You need consistent nutrition. We all do. You need vitamins, probiotics, greens. We all know that we should be doing more of it. When your morning gets chaotic, you skip it. When you travel, you skip it. When your routine breaks, everything tends to break. And that inconsistency compounds against you every single day. AG1 is designed to solve the execution problem.

• 52:54Tom Bilyeu?

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