Introducing Our New Podcast, CRIMES OF…

Power. Fame. Obsession. Betrayal. These are more than headlines. They are the forces behind some of the most unforgettable crimes in history. Crimes Of... is a weekly true crime anthology series, where we explore a new theme each season, such as crimes of the paranormal, unsolved murders, mysterious disappearances, and more. For their first season, we are diving into Crimes of: Infamy. The real-life true crime events behind Hollywood’s most iconic horror villains, from cult classics to massive franchises. Norman Bates. Buffalo Bill. Ghostface. Jason Voorhees. The names alone send a shiver down your spine. Now, discover the chilling crimes that brought them to life. Crimes Of... is a Crime House Original, powered by PAVE Studios. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts⁠, or check us out on ⁠YouTube⁠. New episodes out every Tuesday. Apple | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon Music Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Hey everyone, Sabrina N. Kruein here and we've got some really exciting news to share. We launched a new true crime show with Crime House Studios called Crimes of. It's a weekly true crime anthology series that explores a new theme each season. From Crimes of the Paranormal, Unsolved Murders, Mysterious Disappearances, and more.

• 0:23Corinne Vien?

  Season one is Crimes of Infamy, an exploration of the real-life killers and true crime events that inspired some of Hollywood's most iconic villains. From Ed Gein, the inspiration for Psycho and Silence of the Lambs, to the Gainesville Ripper, Scream, and Lake Boda Murders, Friday the 13th. Each episode reveals the disturbing true stories behind the horror.

• 0:44Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  We're so excited to share an episode of Crimes of Infamy with you. Here it is now.

• 0:50Corinne Vien?

  Enjoy.

• 0:56Corinne Vien?

  Let's play a quick little game, Sabrina.

• 0:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Ooh.

• 0:58Corinne Vien?

  I want to play two truths and a lie.

• 1:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Your favorite?

• 1:01Corinne Vien?

  I know. So I will give you three facts about today's subject. A 1950s real-life killer named Ed Gein, and you're gonna guess which one is the lie.

• 1:10Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay.

• 1:11Corinne Vien?

  Ready? Okay. Number one, when police entered Ed Gein's house, they found furniture made of human body parts.

• 1:17Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Okay.

• 1:19Corinne Vien?

  Number two, Ed was a trusted babysitter around town who was loved by the kids for his magic tricks. And number three, Ed was found guilty of his crimes right away and he spent the rest of his life in prison.

• 1:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I really want it to be number two because how could a serial killer be the town beloved babysitter?

• 1:39Corinne Vien?

  Right, it's so weird.

• 1:41Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, it's so creepy and unsettling for all those kids to, you know, later in life realize that that was their babysitter. But because it's so outlandish, I feel like that has to be true.

• 1:51Corinne Vien?

  Correct.

• 1:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So I'm gonna go with number three.

• 1:55Corinne Vien?

  Shockingly, number three is the lie. Ed did not spend the rest of his days behind bars, but instead he did spend it in a hospital because he was found mentally incompetent to stand trial. And then he was later ruled not guilty by reason of insanity.

• 2:09Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So today, we'll tell you all about Ed's victims, his life and the twisted crimes he committed, and how Ed's warped mental state became the inspiration for not one, but several of the world's most iconic horror films.

• 2:30Corinne Vien?

  Welcome to Crimes of, the show that takes you into different corners of the true crime universe to explore the biggest cases that changed the course of history. Each eight to 12-episode season, we will dive deeper into the themes from movies to music to scandals to crimes of passion and heartbreaking disappearances. Every Tuesday, we will be here to share these stories in a whole new light, and you can catch the show on YouTube where we will include visuals that bring the cases to life.

• 2:58Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But here, we're not just dishing out the facts. We're pulling you into the heat of the moment. Through immersive storytelling, we will take you beyond the headlines into the turning points that changed everything. The characters, cornerstone memories, detectives' explosive interrogations, and the creepy crime scenes packed with hidden clues.

• 3:18Corinne Vien?

  Get ready to feel every twist and turn, hear every whisper in secret, and uncover the shocking truths that no one saw coming. We are your hosts, Corinne Bien and Sabrina De Ana Roga. I will be the one walking you through the chilling facts of every story.

• 3:34Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And I will be zooming in on the moments and showing you how the very real scenes in these stories played out. We are calling this season Crimes of Infamy because we are going to be exploring one of our own personal obsessions: horror movies.

• 3:51Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 3:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So for the next eight episodes, we're ripping off the masks of some of Hollywood's most prolific villains and meeting the real killers who inspired them. From Psycho to Scream to It and Friday the 13th, we are going to examine the true crime killers who were so demonic, they became muses for the biggest horror films to date. So you may know Pennywise, Norman Bates, and Ghostface, but you might not know the full stories behind the real slashers that inspired the men like John Wayne Gacy, Ed Gein, or Danny Rowling. Which is why Corinne and I are here to take you behind the scenes and into the very real worlds, walking you through these true crime stories and the blockbuster horrors that they inspired.

• 4:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  As you're watching and listening, go ahead and comment on all the similarities you see between today's subjects and your favorite horror films, because we're curious to know which are your favorite and why. Plus, also, give us your recommendations.

• 4:49Corinne Vien?

  Oh, yeah. Give us your recs. And I'm sure you've never wondered what a lampshade made out of real human flesh would look like.

• 4:55Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  No.

• 4:56Corinne Vien?

  Or what a pair of pants made from real human legs would be like to wear. But Ed Gein did. And as horrifying and sadistic as that sounds, it is not fiction. It is disturbingly real.

• 5:09Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's very real.

• 5:10Corinne Vien?

  If you've even dipped a single toe into the true crime universe before, you probably have heard Ed's name mentioned, because he might be one of the most iconic and disturbed killers in American history.

• 5:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He's also the real-life monster who inspired the iconic films like Psycho, Silence of the Lambs, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and so many more. I was shocked at how many movies he inspired that I didn't even think of until we were doing this episode and prepping for it.

• 5:41Corinne Vien?

  And movies that we watched in our childhood, inappropriately as children, but in our childhood.

• 5:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  You watched inappropriately. I was such a scaredy cat. I didn't watch any horror films until my, like, adulthood.

• 5:53Corinne Vien?

  Really?

• 5:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 5:54Corinne Vien?

  Oh, my first one was Signs. At eight years old, shout out to Elena's mom for an unsupervised sleepover, and it scarred me. I slept in my brother's room for the next, like, eight years after that.

• 6:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:07Corinne Vien?

  But now we're here because we love horror.

• 6:10Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And we'll talk more about these films right after this.

• 6:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  A warning: This episode contains descriptions of murder and dismemberment, so please listen with care.

• 6:24Corinne Vien?

  Before we tell you about Ed Gein's story and talk about the movies that he inspired, it is important for us to point out that there are two women who lost their lives at his hands. Bernice Warden and Mary Hogan, not to mention their families, their friends, an entire community who experienced their loss and the devastation firsthand. And beyond that, the amount of body parts that were found inside of his home has led investigators to believe that there were many other victims as well. So in telling Ed's story, we are painfully aware that these are not just tales from the past. They are rooted in real devastating loss. And for anyone who's been personally affected by a tragedy, stories like this can really hit close to home. And so our hearts go out to you.

• 7:09Corinne Vien?

  We carry that weight with us as we tell this story and all of these stories. And you're always on our minds.

• 7:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I think there's something to be learned about Ed Gein as a person. And I'm sure a lot of great storytellers would agree because Ed had a way of burrowing himself deep into people's psyches, ours included.

• 7:26Corinne Vien?

  Yes.

• 7:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yes. I feel like I've just been consumed by Ed Gein for the last couple of weeks. And I've definitely been on edge because of it.

• 7:33Corinne Vien?

  Right. And I feel like his name is a name that I will never forget after first hearing about him. There are a lot of true crime stories and there's a lot of horror out there. And people consume it often, you know, we are two of those people that

• 7:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yep.

• 7:47Corinne Vien?

  tend to gravitate towards that genre. But his name is the one that I will never, ever forget.

• 7:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah. Because before Ed, monsters like him seemed to only exist in nightmares. And Corinne and I both have terrifying nightmares, so we can tell you all about those another time. But once people learned that men like Ed really did walk the earth, he became the muse for some of the most impactful horror films to date. Think Norman Bates from Psycho, Leatherface from Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs, which I rewatched Silence of the Lambs yesterday in preparation for this. Hello, Clarice. It. There's so much about that movie to talk about and I could talk about that movie for hours.

• 8:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But I feel like my favorite scene from that movie is when Buffalo Bill is dancing to,

• 8:40Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  what's the, oh, dancing to Goodbye Horses. And he's like in the mirror and he tucks his penis underneath and he's like, would you fuck me? I'd fuck me.

• 8:53Corinne Vien?

  Ah, it's so disturbing. I don't really know if that part of Buffalo Bill was inspired by Ed Gein and we'll get into that.

• 9:02Corinne Vien?

  But there was a lot taken from Ed Gein's life and we will get into Ed Gein's life, which was also filled with terrifying jump scares and skin crawling scenes that will make you want to hide under the covers. And if you do not believe us, Sabrina will show you.

• 9:17Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Snow blankets the small town of Plainfield, Wisconsin. The headlights of a cop car cut through the mist, lighting up a quaint little farmhouse on the outskirts of town. The officers turn off their car, plunging everything into darkness. They get out, click on their flashlights, and ever so slowly venture closer to the darkened home. Frost nips at their fingers and the only sound is their footsteps crunching in the snow and their hearts beating in their chest. They're looking for a local woman who went missing earlier that day. But these small town beat cops have no idea what they're in for. Up until now, they've been lucky enough to avoid any real danger

• 10:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  and nothing has prepared them for the horrors they will face tonight. Inside, a woman hanging from her ankles in the middle of the room, lampshades and chairs upholstered with real human flesh.

• 10:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Women's lips fastened into a window shade drawstring, belts made out of female breasts, and masks crafted from real human faces.

• 10:31Corinne Vien?

  Absolutely sick. Yeah, so you're probably starting to see how moments from Ed Gein's life inspired the movies that we mentioned earlier.

• 10:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yes.

• 10:39Corinne Vien?

  But before we talk more about that, let us start from the beginning so you can get a full picture of how Ed came to be Ed.

• 10:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Corinne Vien?

  It's 1914. We are now in a small town of Plainfield, Wisconsin, a village of only about 720 residents at the time. And this was a really sleepy community. It had a handful of businesses. There was a general store, a wagon shop. It was surrounded by plenty of farmland, and this is where the Gein family had planted their roots.

• 11:09Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It sounds peaceful.

• 11:10Corinne Vien?

  It does sound peaceful. It kind of sounds like our dream.

• 11:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right, just going to the local farm, picking up

• 11:16Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 11:16Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  some produce.

• 11:17Corinne Vien?

  The Geins are part of like the local CSA. They're at the farmers market with their little pickled fruits and vegetables.

• 11:24Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But I have a feeling it's not. That's not exactly how it was.

• 11:27Corinne Vien?

  Actually, thank God that Ed is no longer taking inspiration because I feel like he would have been into pickling now, knowing what we know. Okay, but they didn't do this. They were just a part of this sleepy little community and George Gein and his wife, a daughter of German immigrants named Augusta, they find this two-story farmhouse on the outskirts of town about six miles from the main street of Plainfield. And the Geins are sort of private, which we respect.

• 11:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Of course.

• 11:57Corinne Vien?

  They want to live somewhere kind of far from any prying eyes. They're not super involved in the community. And so this location is perfect for this couple and for their two sons, eight-year-old Ed and his older brother, 12-year-old Henry. The Geins are far from that perfect little Norman Rockwell family. Ed's father, George, has a drinking problem. He has a really hard time holding down a job. He spends a lot of the family's money at a local tavern. And he's also not really religious at all, which is starkly different from Ed's mother, Augusta, who is really strict. She's ultra religious. She's just got the hammer on the family while her partner is just like dissolving as a puddle on the floor.

• 12:40Corinne Vien?

  And it's basically the family almost viewed him as like a burden and useless for most of his life, which is pretty sad.

• 12:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It is very sad. And I feel like this theme of religion plays such a big role in Ed's life and his upbringing. And in talking about horror movies, it does remind me of the mom in Carrie in Stephen King's film and book.

• 13:00Corinne Vien?

  So Augusta is super, super religious and extreme even for the 1910s in the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin, to the point where Augusta forces her two sons to read the Old Testament over and over again.

• 13:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Genesis 50 20, "But as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring it about as it is this day to save many people alive."

• 13:26Corinne Vien?

  And Augusta also plants the idea in Ed and Henry's minds that all women are basically sex workers sent to earth to tempt men, except her, of course, which, one, how inappropriate? And two, I don't even, I can't even begin to understand the psyche of Augusta herself because she really wanted daughters. And so she was super upset when Henry, her first born, was her son. So she basically neglected him, almost abandoned him. And then when she had Ed, she decided she was going to do everything in her power to like control him and basically make him into the child that she so wanted, which to me it just, it still doesn't make sense that she's like, women are evil, women are horrible. It's like, you wanted a girl.

• 14:05Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Well, I'm also curious what she thinks about herself. And I know that this episode is about Ed, but it does make me

• 14:11Corinne Vien?

  But it starts with Augusta.

• 14:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  wonder about her upbringing and like the narrative her family kind of

• 14:16Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 14:17Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  put into her mind. Yeah, I read a story about how Augusta once caught Ed with like a girl and the way that she punished him afterwards. And then also like one time she caught him masturbating and she completely destroyed him, like psychologically, telling him how dirty it was. So you can imagine that growing up with all of this. Just impacted him.

• 14:41Corinne Vien?

  Right. Yeah. And I had also read somewhere that she told her sons that if they did anything sexual, that basically meant that they did not love her. So it was like your mother's love or growing up as a human being, going through puberty and doing things that are natural.

• 14:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  As if sex and like going through puberty weren't tough enough.

• 15:02Corinne Vien?

  Right. Very tough in Augusta's house.

• 15:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yes.

• 15:07Corinne Vien?

  When it comes to her marriage, Augusta definitely wore the pants of this family. She was always ordering George around the house. She was yelling at him for his failures. At one point, they owned a shop, which she ended up kicking George out of his position and taking over the shop. And then when they ended up having farmland, she purchased the farmland in her own name. So she was definitely running the house.

• 15:29Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Boss move?

• 15:31Corinne Vien?

  It is if you take it out of the context of this story, because like it is a controlling move when it comes to Augusta.

• 15:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yes.

• 15:38Corinne Vien?

  As for Ed, he seemed to always have this almost like obsession with his mother. Think Norman Bates. He hung on her every word. He worshipped the ground she walked on. And whether that was maybe out of pure fear, or maybe just because of how much she sheltered him, it's anyone's guess. Because we can never really know what was going on behind closed doors there. But one thing we do know is that Augusta kept Ed so close that he didn't actually start school until he was eight years old.

• 16:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is wild.

• 16:08Corinne Vien?

  Mm hmm. Right. He has no social skills at that point.

• 16:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  No.

• 16:13Corinne Vien?

  He's only been with mommy.

• 16:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He's so stunted in so many different ways. And like it's social stunt, like being stunted socially, but it's also intellectually. His whole like view of the world is what his mother wants him to have.

• 16:30Corinne Vien?

  And we know that she's not having appropriate conversations for his age either. So there's, there's a lot that Ed had going against him when he joined school.

• 16:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 16:39Corinne Vien?

  Immediately he feels like an outcast. And whenever he came close to making a new friend on the playground or in the classroom, he would run home so excited. He'd tell his mom, oh, my gosh, I made this new friend on the playground.

• 16:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is so pure.

• 16:50Corinne Vien?

  So pure. But she would immediately be like, no, you can never talk to that person. That person is evil. Evil lives within them. And she would spin these wild lies about how awful these kids were that he was trying to befriend.

• 17:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is a very common abusive technique that like

• 17:07Corinne Vien?

  Isolation tactic.

• 17:08Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  That abusers use on their victims.

• 17:10Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. She broke Ed down so much that when he would return to the schoolyard the next day, he would avoid talking to or making eye contact with that new friend. Which was also strange for the kids who were trying to befriend him. And so he started to get this sort of reputation. And that meant Augusta got what she wanted, which was little Eddie all to herself.

• 17:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And it's tough because I feel like in this moment, obviously, we haven't gotten to the really like dark things that Ed does do over time, but I have empathy and I sympathize with little Ed. That's really tough. But then at the same time, I don't want to villainize Augusta because sure, maybe there are parts of his childhood and growing up that contributed to who he became. She is not responsible for his actions.

• 18:01Corinne Vien?

  No, no. There's unfortunately many children who live similar lives as Ed Gein in their adolescence and they do not go on to

• 18:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Turn

• 18:11Corinne Vien?

  People into lampshades.

• 18:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Corinne Vien?

  So over time, this created this sort of like bizarre dynamic between Augusta and Ed. And the dependency that almost put Ed into the role of her partner at times rather than her child. And this must have been very confusing for little Eddie, as we can imagine. And at school, the way that he was treated by his peers due to this behavior and due to Augusta's influence did kind of add to everything that would shape Ed as a person.

• 18:44Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 18:44Corinne Vien?

  There were some strange quirks about Ed that drove kids away. He had this sort of lopsided grin on his faces and his eyes. He had some interesting tactics when it came to making eye contact.

• 18:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Well, yeah, if you don't socialize until you're eight years old.

• 19:00Corinne Vien?

  He was super shy, super nervous, right?

• 19:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 19:03Corinne Vien?

  But then he also

• 19:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I hate eye contact as a thirty-two-year-old woman.

• 19:07Corinne Vien?

  Me too. Sometimes I count. I'm like, is this an inappropriate amount of time to make eye contact?

• 19:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  How long is too long?

• 19:12Corinne Vien?

  Thirty seconds may be too long. Look away, but where do I look? I don't know. It is awkward. We all feel it.

• 19:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yes.

• 19:18Corinne Vien?

  We feel for young Ed in this moment. It's hard to make friends as a kid. It's hard to make friends as an adult and eye contact does not help. Or maybe it does. I don't know. But that's why we're each other's only friends.

• 19:30Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Exactly.

• 19:32Corinne Vien?

  He also had this sort of wildly inappropriate laughter that he'd burst out at times. So it was just like kind of this whole thing where he was doing his best. He was trying, but his behaviors just were odd enough to the children around him that they did kind of view him as the outcast. Yes, they kept their distance.

• 19:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  We all know children are very mean. We both were bullied as kids.

• 19:55Corinne Vien?

  And probably at times bullies.

• 19:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, exactly. So kids are the worst, but we love them.

• 20:01Corinne Vien?

  And we have a child.

• 20:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  We.

• 20:04Corinne Vien?

  Together. But the way Ed saw it in his interactions in the schoolyard, it just proved Augusta, his mother's points even more. So all the things she was telling him, these kids are evil, blah, blah, blah. It was just driving home what he was being told at home. And so he soon realized the only person he could really trust was Augusta, his mother.

• 20:27Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Really doubling down on that codependency.

• 20:33Corinne Vien?

  There was one event from Ed's childhood, though. This was a cornerstone memory that Ed spoke about later in life, one from before he moved to Plainfield, that he seemed to remember with a sort of fondness.

• 20:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Ready to go into a narrative? All right.

• 20:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's a sunny afternoon. Ed Gein is no older than eight, and he's just spent the day running around his hometown of across Wisconsin while his parents are off working in the small meat and grocery store that they run in town. But Ed, like a lot of little boys his age, is out looking for trouble. Ed finds himself standing outside the rundown wooden building that is behind his parents' store. And it's a place that for years has piqued his curiosity. And it's also a place that Ed has been told, under no circumstances is he ever allowed to enter. But he's 10, and now, standing there, hearing the horrible sounds and screams of the animals

• 21:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  within, he wants to see it for himself. He senses that whatever is happening in the back room is not good.

• 21:42Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And that makes him want to see it for himself even more. So what does he do? He sneaks around the side of the building, hoping to get a quick peek inside. He's dying to know what his mother and father are doing back there that he's not allowed to see. Ed finds the door open, just a crack. And there he spots his parents, in between them, a giant hog hanging from a meat hook in the ceiling. The animal sways as Augusta takes a long blade and runs it down the animal's belly. Little Ed watches as blood pours onto the floor. And in that moment, he feels something he's never felt before. Like something has awakened inside of him.

• 22:27Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  A complicated feeling of pleasure. A feeling that will drive a lot of Ed's behavior in the years to come.

• 22:36Corinne Vien?

  See, this is a perfect moment too, where we can discuss how a lot of people could also see that, and that could be a horrifying moment. A nightmare fuel for a child.

• 22:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 22:48Corinne Vien?

  But for Ed, it did awaken something in him. So there is this sort of thing that already kind of existed within Ed.

• 22:54Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. And there's a lot of different studies into this moment specifically, because Ed did recall it quite a bit. After he was caught for his crimes, that almost attached a sexual desire to this and to his mother. It's the act of his mother cutting open this pig. And it's, I mean, the complexity and darkness here is like, it runs deep.

• 23:22Corinne Vien?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 23:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And it's so unsettling to you and I.

• 23:24Corinne Vien?

  Freud would have had a field day.

• 23:29Corinne Vien?

  So Ed might have thought that he would take this secret with him to the grave. He certainly didn't have any friends to share this, well, maybe his perversions with.

• 23:38Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is even harder because now he's stuck with it alone in his head.

• 23:42Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And he probably knows it's wrong, but he has no one to share it with and talk to it with.

• 23:47Corinne Vien?

  So the more he obsesses over it and thinks about it, because he knows he's not supposed to.

• 23:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which makes him think about it more.

• 23:52Corinne Vien?

  And getting punished by his mom.

• 23:54Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And this is why everyone-

• 23:55Corinne Vien?

  Which is either a bad thing or a good thing. I don't know.

• 23:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is why everyone should go to therapy.

• 23:58Corinne Vien?

  Yes.

• 23:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Big therapy advocates here.

• 24:02Corinne Vien?

  It gets even worse for Ed too, because he actually dropped out of school after the eighth grade. And it seems like the only person outside of his mom in his life really was Henry, who was five years his senior. But Henry also didn't last long in school either. And so the two started tending to their parents farm full time, working a series of odd jobs around town. And really because their father was also suffering with alcoholism and probably a lot of other things. He wasn't able to pull his weight, really. And so they had a lot of work to do to keep the family afloat and help their mother Augusta.

• 24:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which goes back to, again, like Ed almost playing this role of partner rather than child. So there's a lot of responsibility to put on a kid. And then also, based on everything we've learned about Ed and Augusta, the relationship Augusta had with Henry, like she almost kind of despised him. And then favored Ed, which I'm sure created so much conflict between brothers.

• 25:00Corinne Vien?

  Super weird dynamic.

• 25:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Corinne Vien?

  But the two are working together on the family farm. And then Ed, he would patch roofs, he would paint houses, repaired broken fences, and he even babysat some of the neighbors' kids. And not just like a one time, oh, we're hiring Ed to babysit. Like, he was a repeatedly hired, he was a repeat hire. People thought he did a great job. The kids loved him.

• 25:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is just so hard to think about after the fact.

• 25:29Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 25:30Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But I do hope he was actually like a good babysitter and that

• 25:33Corinne Vien?

  He might have been.

• 25:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, that he was good to the kids.

• 25:35Corinne Vien?

  Accepted by the young kids.

• 25:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 25:36Corinne Vien?

  Felt at home with them.

• 25:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Because there is, like, I even feel this when I'm in social gatherings, because I have severe social anxiety. I cling to my niece, my two year old niece, because it's so much easier.

• 25:49Corinne Vien?

  There's a dog at the party, forget it. I hold the dog the whole time.

• 25:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  There's no small talk. It's like you're just running around and having fun and it's innocent and there's less pressure on you to be like, look at me, I have my life together.

• 26:00Corinne Vien?

  Totally. So the younger kids that he babysat did seem to love Eddie. He would roughhouse with the boys, he would do magic tricks for the girls. And he definitely felt more in sync with the children than he did with young Adults his own age.

• 26:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 26:13Corinne Vien?

  And while most of the kids moved out of their homes, starting their own lives, exploring independence from their families, Ed and Henry did not. They kept living under their parents' roof well into their 30s. And it kind of seemed like there was no plan for either of them to move out and be on their own.

• 26:28Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is probably something that Augusta wanted.

• 26:31Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  She would.

• 26:31Corinne Vien?

  Kind of reminds me of the Borden sisters.

• 26:34Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 26:35Corinne Vien?

  But in the 1940s, tragedy was brought to the Geen family. By the start of the year, Ed's father, George, was nearly at the end of his life. The years of drinking had really taken a toll on his health. And at 66 years old, on April 1st of that year, George passed away. And after that, the dynamic in the home, it changed a lot.

• 26:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 26:56Corinne Vien?

  Now with their father gone, the reason that Eddie and his brother Henry had never really been close was more apparent, at least to Henry. It was because of how much Ed worshipped Augusta, a very inappropriate amount. The two always seemed to gang up on Henry, taking each other's side. And eventually, it came to the point where Henry just could not keep quiet any longer. He approached Ed one day and expressed some of his concerns about how much of a hold Augusta had over the 37-year-old Ed. And it was one concern that Henry probably should have kept to himself, though I don't want to blame Henry for this. But you'll know why, because of what came next.

• 27:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's the evening of May 16th, 1944. Ed Geen runs to his neighbor's house in a panic. He says there's just been a fire on his property, and he and his brother were scrambling to put it out. But he lost sight of his 42-year-old brother, Henry. And after the flames and smoke finally cleared, Henry was still nowhere to be found. Ed cries out desperately. He needs his neighbor's help. They assemble a search party. Even the deputy sheriff comes out to lend a hand. But there's something strange about how this search goes down. Ed trudges back over to the property, and without missing a beat, with the team trailing behind him, Ed seems to know exactly where to find his missing brother.

• 28:24Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And he leads the search party directly to where Henry is now lying, face down in the dirt, his pulse no longer beating. While the neighbors call Ed out for having found Henry's body so easily, Ed just shrugs and agrees, saying, quote, "Funny how that works." Even weirder, Henry doesn't appear to be touched by the flames at all. There isn't a single burn on his body. There are, however, several strained bruises on his head, bruises that might have been caused by foul play.

• 29:00Corinne Vien?

  Funny how that works.

• 29:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I'm so excited. I'm getting my whole body MRI scan from Prenewvo in a couple of weeks.

• 29:07Corinne Vien?

  It's honestly so important. It's like one of those things where getting older and aging has provided me so many anxieties about like what's going on.

• 29:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I recently had some medical issues in my family and everyone in my family is like, "Let's just do everything we can to get ahead and take our own health into our own hands." Prenewvo's whole body scan is a radiation-free MRI designed to help provide a detailed, non-invasive look at your body in under an hour, and it helps evaluate across major organs and systems, including the brain, spine, abdomen, pelvis, and more. Prenewvo's whole body scan can help detect many cancers, aneurysms, and hundreds of other conditions. And they have memberships that bundle MRI scans, blood panels, and a personalized results review to track your health year after year.

• 29:49Corinne Vien?

  To learn more about Prenewvo and get $300 off your whole body MRI, go to prenewvo.com/tgog and use code TGOG. That's P-R-E-N-U-V-O dot com slash T-G-O-G. Terms and conditions apply.

• 30:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Receive $300 off Prenewvo whole body scans and executive and comprehensive memberships through January 31st. For full details, visit Prenewvo's website to read their terms and conditions and privacy notice. Prenewvo gifted me a whole body scan. A Prenewvo scan is a screening service, not diagnostic. Diagnosis and treatment are determined by your healthcare provider. Halloween is magical. You all know that. But Baked by Melissa is making it even more magical and delicious because their Halloween cupcakes are such a hit. They're bite-sized, they're beautifully packaged, and they also double as decor. Baked by Melissa cupcakes are made entirely by hand and turn any moment into celebration. So whether it is Halloween or a birthday, or if you want to send someone a gift, these are a great gift for people. And there's something for every taste, from classic flavors to fresh, new seasonal and holiday options,

• 30:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  plus gluten-free, vegan, and no-nut choices, so everyone can get a cupcake. Baked by Melissa ships nationwide in just one to two days, and you can choose your arrival date, so everything shows up perfectly fresh and right on time. I'm having a Halloween party with my soccer team that I've been playing with, and I ordered the Hocus Pocus cupcakes pack. They have cookies and cream, eyeball, they have spooky tie-dye. Oh, I can't wait to eat them. They're so good. Right now, Baked by Melissa is offering our listeners 20% off your order at bakedbymelissa.com/tgog. That's bakedbymelissa.com/tgog for 20% off your first order. Bakedbymelissa.com/tgog. Guilty.

• 31:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But apparently not. That's so suspicious. It's so suspicious. And I feel like to you and I, and probably our listeners, everyone who's out there listening, it seems safe to say Ed had some role in this, but... Yeah, it would seem that way, but for the record, Ed was actually never charged with anything related to Henry's death. But the people of Plainfield definitely whispered about it. And one thing was for certain, Ed did not have to worry about sharing his mommy anymore. He had Augusta all to himself. Why'd you have to say it? So creepy. Mommy! Because that's how I picture them together, just odd behaviors. Have you ever seen Long Legs? No.

• 32:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, so it's Nick Cage in that movie, and he plays this like very, very creepy role. But there's a scene where he's like driving, and he's like, "Mommy!" Daddy.

• 32:26Corinne Vien?

  Ooh.

• 32:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So you sounded like that.

• 32:28Corinne Vien?

  Well, no offense to Nicolas Cage in that movie. Nicolas Cage, the way I said that. But it does kind of look like he is wearing a skin suit in it.

• 32:38Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It does.

• 32:39Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. Well.

• 32:41Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I don't think that's offense. I think that's props to the costume people.

• 32:44Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, props, props to those people.

• 32:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  They did their job.

• 32:47Corinne Vien?

  Curious if there's any inspiration there from Ed Gein's story. But Ed also did not have Augusta to himself for very long after Henry's death. Because a short time later Augusta suffered a paralyzing stroke. And just four days after Christmas, on December 29th, 1945, a second stroke took her life and she died at 67 years old. And now Ed was completely beside himself, completely alone.

• 33:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 33:13Corinne Vien?

  The one person who'd offered him shelter and security and direction, at least in his skewed beliefs, was now gone.

• 33:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It was probably life shattering.

• 33:23Corinne Vien?

  I can't even imagine.

• 33:24Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  His whole reality has changed.

• 33:25Corinne Vien?

  What was going on? That, if he wasn't already broken inside, like that had to have.

• 33:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Destroyed him.

• 33:32Corinne Vien?

  Yes.

• 33:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And because that's something that, like, I remember when my dad's dad passed away, it really, really broke him in many ways. And I think that's something that a lot of people deal with when their parents die. Like, it's really difficult.

• 33:48Corinne Vien?

  Right. Yeah, and for Ed and his grief, he had no purpose and he had no direction. The house completely went to ruin. And it wasn't long before that grief and loneliness manifested into something darker, something twisted and sadistic. And it would only be a matter of time before the monster living inside of him finally emerged.

• 34:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Dun, dun, dun.

• 34:13Corinne Vien?

  Fifty-eight-year-old Bernice Warden, her maiden name was Conover, had lived in Plainfield, Wisconsin ever since she was a little girl. She had married a boy in town named Leon Warden, and the two opened a hardware store together. And then they had two children, Frank and Miriam. And it was a very quiet and simple life. And over the years, the family became synonymous with that little hardware store. I picture like Gilmore Girls now.

• 34:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, such a small town. Everyone knows everyone.

• 34:39Corinne Vien?

  Totally.

• 34:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Corinne Vien?

  And everyone in town knew who Leon and Bernice were because of this hardware store that they ran. And so when Leon suddenly passed away in 1931 at the age of 40, the whole town was mourning his loss. This was a very beloved man. And this was just the kind of place that Plainfield was. Everyone knew each other. Everyone cared about one another. But suddenly Bernice had found herself owning this hardware store, a single mom, having to run the shop and have two children all under her care. And for the next 25 years, Bernice learned how to live without Leon by her side. She went to church. She found a love for fishing. She became a grandmother. And all while earning the title of Citizen of the Week in 1956.

• 35:24Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I love that.

• 35:25Corinne Vien?

  Bring that back.

• 35:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 35:27Corinne Vien?

  Citizen of the Week.

• 35:28Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I feel like towns are too big. Like you need to do.

• 35:31Corinne Vien?

  Let's chop them up. Actually, this is, that was inappropriate to say in this episode. Sorry.

• 35:38Corinne Vien?

  Moving on.

• 35:38Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  You meant to do that.

• 35:39Corinne Vien?

  I did not, but you know where my mind is now.

• 35:42Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I do. Yes.

• 35:43Corinne Vien?

  Okay. Well, there was one person in this town who took an extra special liking to Bernice Warden. And that was Ed Geen, because ever since his mother's passing, Ed, well, he hadn't really changed much. He was still odd. He was quite polite and soft spoken. And most people knew him as such, and he still actually babysat people in the neighborhood.

• 36:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Town babysitter. Yeah.

• 36:08Corinne Vien?

  Right? Like still in his 40s, he's babysitting kids. If there was a sudden emergency, I don't think he was like the go to. But, you know, he was still there and available. But he looked a little bit more ragged than before. Without his mother around to encourage him to bathe every few days. Maybe that was expected. Ed wasn't the only one who'd fallen into disrepair though, because their farmhouse, the Geens' family farmhouse, it also suffered in the wake of Augusta's death. It was once completely pristine. And now the yard was infested with weeds. The farming equipment had rusted away in the summer sun. And any livestock that once brought life to the land had been sold off by Ed to make some cash.

• 36:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 36:49Corinne Vien?

  Even from the outside, it was very clear that there was some unsettling darkness that had descended over the Geens' home. And maybe that is why Ed often found himself wandering all around town.

• 37:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's like his physical reality was a metaphor for what was happening psychologically too.

• 37:07Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, completely. And him like wandering around just totally lost, looking for direction.

• 37:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. And looking for a mom, clearly.

• 37:13Corinne Vien?

  Some companionship.

• 37:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Type of replacement for Augusta.

• 37:17Corinne Vien?

  Totally. And one of his chosen haunts was Bernice Warden's hardware store. It started small, stopping by every once in a while to buy a new wrench or some chemical supplies. But soon he was making daily appearances and those turned into something more specific, some more specific requests. He would ask Bernice, "Do you want to join me for a movie tonight? Are you free to go roller skating later? Maybe dancing is more your speed."

• 37:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So it's almost like he wants a romantic connection with her?

• 37:50Corinne Vien?

  Which I have to say, after all of these talks about him struggling socially, I do feel like his lines to ask someone on a date is appropriate. Maybe the way he did it in the context.

• 38:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, and we're not there to really know how it went down. So it, you know, we want to imagine it one way, but it might have been a little bit more unsettling.

• 38:11Corinne Vien?

  True, yeah. And while it doesn't seem like Bernice, who was seven years older than Ed, was very accepting of his advances, she also wasn't rude to him either. She was very polite in declining these dates. But Ed's feelings for Bernice, they went from fondness to obsession and quickly. And on the morning of November 16th, 1957, Ed Gein could no longer help himself.

• 38:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's a quiet day in downtown Plainfield, the first day of hunting season. So many of the local men and boys are out in the woods, searching for deer. But back in town, Bernice Warden is managing the quiet hardware shop in case any of the men come back for supplies. Even Bernice's grown son Frank is out in these woods. When Frank isn't working as deputy sheriff in town, he's helping Bernice out in the hardware shop. But today Bernice figures she can handle it alone. And Ed Gein, who has been watching her closely, sees this as the perfect opportunity.

• 39:17Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Just after 8:00 AM that day, Ed hops in his 49 Ford sedan and heads into town. He parks his car in front of Bernice's shop and goes inside. As the bell over the door rings, Bernice greets Ed politely. He brings an empty jug over to the register, flashes an awkward toothy grin at Bernice, and asks if she will refill his antifreeze. Bernice saunters to the back room to get it, making small talk with Ed as she disappears. Then she comes back into view. She writes him a sales receipt, keeping a carbon copy for herself, and then watches as Ed wanders back out the front door. Bernice lets out a sigh of relief, believing she is off the hook from Ed's flirtatious advances today.

• 40:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But then she hears the bell chime again. Ed is back, and this time he has another request. He's been thinking of trading his rifle for a new one. So he asks Bernice if he can see the model she has on display. Bernice hands the unloaded rifle over and walks over to the window of the shop, giving Ed some time to consider it. She comments to Ed about a big red Chevy parked in front of the general store across the street. "I see Bud has a new car," she says, her back still turned to Ed. And while she's distracted, Ed takes a bullet out of his overalls, loads the pistol, and by the time she turns around, Bernice is face to face with the shotgun.

• 40:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Then Ed pulls the trigger.

• 40:51Corinne Vien?

  A few hours later, a man named Bernard, who worked across the street at the gas station, noticed how quiet things were at Bernice's store. And Bernice was always hustling about, but not today. And so he noticed something felt off.

• 41:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And again, like going back to the small town, everyone knows everyone. They're probably in each other's businesses.

• 41:13Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, exactly. On his break, Bernard strolled over to check on Bernice, and the shop door was locked. And so he thought to himself, well, maybe Mrs. Warden decided to close shop early. But if that were the case, then why had Bernice left all the lights on inside? So he's an investigator, right? He's picking up on the clues.

• 41:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  This is a time where having nosy neighbors is a good thing.

• 41:34Corinne Vien?

  Oh, it's still a good thing.

• 41:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 41:37Corinne Vien?

  And later that afternoon, Bernice's son Frank Warden returned from hunting and stopped by the gas station. And when he heard that his mother was missing from her shop, he rushed right over. And one of the first things he noticed was a pool of blood inside of the shop.

• 41:52Corinne Vien?

  And near it was a handwritten receipt for antifreeze. And the person his mother had sold to was none other than Ed Gein.

• 42:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Leaving a lot of evidence behind, which thankfully, we're glad that he did.

• 42:06Corinne Vien?

  Right. Which is a little bit ironic that he was so sloppy in his crimes because he did also consume a lot of content at home, reading about crimes.

• 42:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He spent a lot of time thinking about it probably, but never, I guess, acting on it is such a different experience.

• 42:25Corinne Vien?

  True.

• 42:25Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I hope to never know. And I hope none of you ever know. And I hope no one kills anyone. I think that's safe to say.

• 42:33Corinne Vien?

  I'd worry.

• 42:35Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I was like, ah, walk it back.

• 42:36Corinne Vien?

  Walk it back, walk it back. So Frank knew Ed had been making some strange passes at his mom and that this had been going on for a while. So when he contacted his fellow officers at the sheriff's department, he was certain when he said, quote, "He's done something to her."

• 42:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, that's so sad.

• 42:53Corinne Vien?

  I know. They needed to find Ed Gein and they needed to find him fast, which shockingly, was not that hard because they found Ed Gein sitting in a neighbor's driveway that evening. And they asked Ed to get out of his car where they questioned him. They asked where he'd been that day. And the conversation basically ended with one very suspicious comment from Ed. He said, "Somebody framed me." And the police asks, "Framed you for what?"

• 43:20Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, God.

• 43:21Corinne Vien?

  And then he replies, "Well, Mrs. Warden, she's dead, ain't she?"

• 43:26Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Guilty. We need to get you a gavel.

• 43:29Corinne Vien?

  Police department. This is ridiculous. Okay, so this was-

• 43:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I like how angry you just got, but they're about to, yeah, they're on to his trail.

• 43:38Corinne Vien?

  The chairs are soft, so you can't really feel my frustration. But this was a huge tell, right? Because no one had suspected that Bernice was dead at the time. No one was talking about it. The town didn't know. The gossip hadn't spread yet. She was just missing.

• 43:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And sure, there was blood, but that doesn't necessarily mean- Death, it could have just been an injury. Yeah, exactly.

• 43:58Corinne Vien?

  Totally. So Ed is showing all of his cards here, and this was enough to land Ed in handcuffs and get him stuffed into the back of the squad car. And meanwhile, two other officers were dispatched to the Geen Farmstead, arriving around 8:00 PM.

• 44:15Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  With one hand on their flashlights and the other on their holsters, the officers approached the Geen house with a sense of hesitancy. Even though they know that Ed is in custody, there's something about this place that sends shivers down their spines. And it isn't the freezing cold weather. They try several doors, finding most of them are locked. Aside from one latch that is a bit flimsier than the rest, the door to the summer kitchen, which is attached to the main house. This bolt is weak and gives with one swift kick. As the door opens, the officers are struck with a horrible stench, an unmistakable decay. The officers cover their noses with their jackets,

• 45:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  shining their lights inside to find that the place is covered in trash. They step over weeks, if not months, of rotting food, empty bottles, old newspapers, and rusted farm tools. They take each corner with a cautiousness you might feel in a haunted house. And that is when one of the officers feels it. A ghostly presence gently caressing his back. He whips his head around to see. It isn't his imagination. His flashlight illuminates a decapitated, dead body, hanging upside down from the ceiling. The remains are gutted like livestock, split down the middle.

• 45:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Despite the dismemberment and lack of a head, there is no question in their mind that this is the body of Bernice Warden. And as they wander from room to room, the officers discover something far worse, something that can only be described as a museum for the macabre. One concocted from Ed's own twisted psyche. Bracelets, a wastebasket, lampshades, and chairs. All made from human skin.

• 46:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And boxes filled with other discarded body parts like noses, sex organs. They are amongst unthinkable horrors. Masks and clothes made of real human flesh that are designed to be worn. Then one of the officers sees a bag hidden behind a door. After what he had just witnessed, he cannot fathom what lies within. And every instinct tells him not to open it, to stay away. But this is his job and duty calls. That is when he reaches in, fingers interlocking with a clump of human hair. And then he pulls out an entire human head. And it is not Bernice Warden's head.

• 46:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He hasn't realized it yet, but it belongs to another woman who went missing in Plainfield three years prior in 1954, a woman named Mary Hogan.

• 47:07Corinne Vien?

  This is just so brutal because I feel like one of the things with serial killers is trophies, right? Like the trophy is the kind of token thing that gets a lot of people caught. But this is so far beyond a trophy. This is, I don't even know what this is.

• 47:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's a head. It actually, so I wrote for the show Prodigal Son back in, what was that? 2021, 2022, those years of the pandemic. And one of the episodes that I wrote, it was season one, episode 18, I think. My, I can't remember. Anyway, the killer in that like resembles Ed Gein so much and I didn't even realize it. Like it must've been in my subconscious, but I didn't realize it. But there's a scene that I wrote where a body is like dismembered in pieces and the head is found in a paper bag.

• 48:02Corinne Vien?

  He's just so disturbing that I do think he's influenced more than what is just even credited to him, unfortunately. So Mary Hogan. The victim that you just presented, her tavern was a local after-work watering hole. It was located only seven miles outside of Plainfield. It was one of the places that everyone could just get together after a really long day and drown their sorrows or disrupt their routines a little bit. And for Ed Gein, it was kind of a classroom. It was a place where he could learn how the rest of the society, I guess, like acted.

• 48:38Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is a common, which is a common thing with serial killers. I feel like a lot of them have this way of studying other humans to try to be like, oh, this is how I'm supposed to act.

• 48:50Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 48:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And then they mimic it.

• 48:53Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, and he also, he didn't drink either. So he was like truly there just to observe people and to get a lesson in blending in.

• 49:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 49:01Corinne Vien?

  So while Ed didn't need any alcohol, which was his father's obsession, and so he kind of was turned off from it, he was there for a different sort of vice. He was there for the bartender, Mary Hogan herself. Three years before his obsession with Bernice Warden, in 1954, Ed had set his sights on Mary. She was another middle-aged woman, and she was a little bit heavyset. She had a thick German accent, who again reminded him of Augusta, reminded Ed of his mother. And Augusta, of course, she was super religious, super like cold and stark and rigid in her beliefs and her ways. And so she would have never been caught dead in a bar, right?

• 49:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 49:41Corinne Vien?

  But on the outside, Mary Hogan resembled Augusta fully. And on the inside, her morals could not be more different. And for some reason, this is kind of what attracted Ed to Mary even more.

• 49:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 49:53Corinne Vien?

  And that obsession came to a head in December of 1954.

• 49:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  On the afternoon of December 8th, the first patron steps inside Mary's tavern for his happy hour beer. The door slams behind him as he walks up to the counter and realizes it's eerily silent in here today. And Mary has not come out yet to pour him his usual ale. The longer the man stands there in the quiet, abandoned bar, the more he realizes. Mary isn't in the back changing a keg. She isn't there at all. Something is very, very wrong. So this man peers behind the bar and that is when he sees a pool of blood on the floor. Minutes later deputies arrive on the scene and they find a used 32 caliber cartridge

• 50:44Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  on the bar floor and a trail of blood that leads out the back door and into the parking lot. But that is where the clues stop. Detectives spend weeks searching for more evidence, searching for Mary, but Mary's body never shows up and neither does a lead.

• 51:01Corinne Vien?

  Eventually, Mary's case ran cold, that is, until almost three years later, when on the evening of November 16th, 1957, two detectives found her head in Ed Gein's home. The officers at Ed's home called for backup, prepared to collect every shred of evidence needed to prosecute Ed for Bernice and Mary's deaths.

• 51:23Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And also, I mean, based on all the evidence they were finding, I'm sure they were like, how many other victims does he-

• 51:29Corinne Vien?

  There were way more body parts than just two humans.

• 51:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Noses, sexual organs, nipples, like it was dozens of body parts belonging to who knows how many victims.

• 51:42Corinne Vien?

  I can't even imagine what those officers were going through.

• 51:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 51:46Corinne Vien?

  It turns out Ed was not looking for a fight, thank goodness, and after his arrest, Ed was willing to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, as long as they got him some apple pie with a slice of cheese on top.

• 51:58Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which kind of has become a famous reference. I think it's Robert De Niro's character in Taxi, in Taxi Driver, who asks for a slice of apple pie with cheese on top.

• 52:11Corinne Vien?

  And it does make me wonder the history of this. If this was something that Augusta, it was like his special treat.

• 52:17Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It must have been.

• 52:18Corinne Vien?

  Cause why else?

• 52:19Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Have you ever tried that?

• 52:20Corinne Vien?

  No, and it's such a weird combo.

• 52:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Like, I do love apple pie.

• 52:22Corinne Vien?

  Well, I'm not trying to yuck another person's yum, but maybe Ed's, yeah.

• 52:25Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, I think it's okay to yuck Ed's yums.

• 52:28Corinne Vien?

  I'm allergic to apples. I can't have that. But Ed gave the police what they wanted. They wanted answers, they wanted to know why, and he began to talk. He told them, yes, he had killed Bernice Warden, but he couldn't recall the details. He said he remembered buying antifreeze, but then after that, he blacked out.

• 52:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which I think is a common thing that either serial killers or murderers in general experience or claim to experience.

• 52:58Corinne Vien?

  Right. And again, Norman Bates, like this is, this is his character essentially.

• 53:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. But I do believe that there is this weird duality that's probably existing in the mind of the killers where they know something is wrong. Morally, they've been taught murder is wrong. So to protect themselves, they almost have like this alter ego. Again, not excusing it, but it's like they have to shut that off. It's the same way when people experience trauma, like sometimes they black it out because it's easier to move on.

• 53:31Corinne Vien?

  Right. And also, I don't know what was going on in Ed's mind. Obviously, I feel like he's a really hard person for anyone to understand the psyche of.

• 53:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 53:39Corinne Vien?

  But there is that kind of back and forth of like, he's finally completing his like perversion, his dream of doing this thing, but also the person he loves the most in life, his mother, would have absolutely probably killed him over. So it's like, he's doing the worst thing in his mother's eyes. And probably the fear, the joy of doing it and the fear of being caught.

• 54:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I know.

• 54:01Corinne Vien?

  Even though she's gone.

• 54:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  If I were to turn this into another type of movie, I'd picture it very like Dexter-esque, where Augusta is showing up, like her ghost is like this.

• 54:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Voice in Ed's head all the time, but like, almost like he sees her spirit talking to him.

• 54:21Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. Well, he said he blacked out and that when he came to, he was dragging Bernice's body from the store into his truck and then he took her home where he cut her open like a deer. So yeah, maybe he blacked out during the actual killing portion, but he certainly remembers what he did after the fact.

• 54:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 54:36Corinne Vien?

  And as the conversation continued, he also admitted to killing Mary Hogan in a very similar fashion three years prior.

• 54:43Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So he's just confessing everything once he's caught.

• 54:45Corinne Vien?

  I guess. Like, what does he have to live for? He's got nothing. The question now was, who did the rest of the body parts belong to?

• 54:53Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right.

• 54:53Corinne Vien?

  And that is when Ed confessed to the unthinkable.

• 55:00Corinne Vien?

  He told detectives that those body parts actually belonged to people who were already dead because it turns out he was super obsessed with grave robbing and he would crack open caskets and steal the remains of the dead under the cover of night. And usually they were women freshly deceased and sometimes they were people he'd known about town. So after he confessed to grave robbing, a team of excavators pulled those bodies from their graves and analyzed their remains and did confirm that, yeah, he did take those body parts. But there was something else detectives were curious about that day. They wanted to know, why did he do it? And after nine hours of questioning, police finally got some answers.

• 55:42Corinne Vien?

  Ed admitted to them that both women reminded him of his mother and whether he felt this urge to kill because of his deep obsession with Augusta or because maybe he had some, like, misunderstood hatred for her. We don't really know, but it seems too complicated for Ed to unravel himself without a therapist, protherapy.

• 56:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yep.

• 56:00Corinne Vien?

  But it was enough to press charges and five days later, on November 21st, 1957, Ed's lawyer helped him plead not guilty by reason of insanity.

• 56:10Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which is insane to me.

• 56:12Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 56:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Corinne Vien?

  It is, but like, he also wasn't with it. Like, yes, I feel like they were premeditated, for sure. But was he understanding right from wrong? Which maybe is part of...

• 56:24Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I have opinions on that, but yes, I understand.

• 56:27Corinne Vien?

  Either way, he's put away, right? Like, he's off the streets.

• 56:30Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 56:30Corinne Vien?

  So, the next step was to see whether or not this 51-year-old Ed Gein was fit to stand trial, and a judge ordered Ed to undergo 30 days of observation at the Central State Hospital for the criminally insane in Wapton, Wisconsin. And during his time there, Ed offered even more insight into how his twisted mind worked. Despite what many investigators believed, he insisted that his crimes were not sexually motivated, that he never engaged in any acts of sex with a deceased.

• 56:59Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Or even the living. Like, he was a virgin. He claimed to be a virgin.

• 57:03Corinne Vien?

  Yes.

• 57:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  His whole life.

• 57:04Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, that he did partake in masturbation, but never had sex ever in his entire life.

• 57:11Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Because what would Augusta think?

• 57:12Corinne Vien?

  Right. Yeah. They would... He was evil if he partook in those acts with the evil women that were all around him.

• 57:21Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Corinne Vien?

  After those 30 days of assessment were up, doctors officially diagnosed Ed Gein with schizophrenia and decided that he was not fit to stand trial after all. Instead, he would remain under the care of the state hospital indefinitely. And the people of Plainfield were pissed.

• 57:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Which, I don't blame them.

• 57:39Corinne Vien?

  Right. We're already getting pissed.

• 57:40Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah. Get your gavel out.

• 57:42Corinne Vien?

  Guilty!

• 57:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  All right.

• 57:48Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It is around 2:30 a.m. on March 20, 1958, when a little boy living near Ed's house wakes up to a brilliant light outside his window. As he peels back the blinds, he sees that the Geins' abandoned farmhouse has erupted into flames. And by the time the fire marshal and a team of firefighters arrive on the scene, there is no saving Ed's childhood home. Come sunrise, the people of Plainfield have gathered around to watch the now tainted farmhouse crumble. The way they see it, this is one way for Ed Gein to finally receive some justice. And the local authorities seem to agree, because what, or rather, who, started the fire is never investigated. Later that morning, Ed's psychiatrist comes into the ward after hearing the news on

• 58:32Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  the radio, and terrified of how Ed might react, he wonders to himself if he should even bother sharing the news. So he waits for Ed to get up, get dressed, and to eat some breakfast before he finally tells him that his childhood home is no longer standing. And Ed, without much expression, just blinks in his direction before responding very casually, just as well.

• 58:55Corinne Vien?

  He's so casual in all of his lines. Like, I don't, I don't, it's, he's the most confusing person ever.

• 59:03Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Funny how that works.

• 59:04Corinne Vien?

  Funny how that works, just as well.

• 59:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Just as well.

• 59:07Corinne Vien?

  Well, just as well, 10 years later, in 1968, Ed's doctors announced that he had improved and he was now fit to stand trial for the murder of Bernice Warden. And on November 14th of that year, 62-year-old Ed's fate was decided, again, still not guilty by reason of insanity. And so Ed was sent back to the hospital where he lived for the next decade and a half. And come 1984, 78-year-old Ed was senile, he was living with cancer, and on July 26th of that year, he died of respiratory failure. And the following night, he was buried in an unmarked grave in the Plainfield Cemetery, right next to his mother, Augusta.

• 59:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Eternally at peace with his mother.

• 59:49Corinne Vien?

  I also wonder, like, was her head returned? Or was he with headless mommy?

• 59:54Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I don't know.

• 59:55Corinne Vien?

  I don't.

• 59:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  The fact that you keep saying mommy, I, it's so appropriate because he probably was calling her mommy until her death.

• 1:00:03Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:04Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But it's creepy hearing you say it.

• 1:00:07Corinne Vien?

  It's mommy.

• 1:00:08Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It's mommy. The story is really, really disturbing. And after hearing Ed's story, you can probably see why he's left such a lasting impression on a lot of filmmakers, creatives, even everyday people. Because something about the way Ed expressed those horrific desires lodges itself deep into the psyche, creating what can only be described as nightmare fuel. And like I was saying about With Prodigal Son, that episode I wrote, I wasn't thinking about Ed Gein, but-

• 1:00:37Corinne Vien?

  But he exists inside your mind somewhere.

• 1:00:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He stays there. Yeah.

• 1:00:41Corinne Vien?

  Because like, what is more monstrous than this? If you're trying to get like deeply depraved and write something so horrifying that it doesn't feel real, it's Ed Gein's story.

• 1:00:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It is. So let's talk about some of the films that were inspired by Ed Gein. So let's start with one of my favorites. Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which I didn't realize was inspired by Ed Gein. It is one of the longest running horror franchises out there. And the first movie came out in 1974, written by Kim Henkel and Toby Hooper, and also directed by Toby Hooper as well. He then directed a sequel that came out 12 years later, and this one was written by L.M. Kit Carson. Seven more movies followed after that, all by different creators, including a remake in 2003, which I think that's the one I saw.

• 1:01:29Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:01:30Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Actually, that was my first-

• 1:01:31Corinne Vien?

  That was another sleepover movie.

• 1:01:33Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Horror movie I ever watched.

• 1:01:34Corinne Vien?

  Texas Chainsaw Massacre?

• 1:01:35Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I did a double feature, so I really like went from never watching horror movies and then I went to a sleepover where my friend wanted to watch scary movies and I couldn't be chicken. And we did a double feature of Texas Chainsaw Massacre and House of Wax.

• 1:01:51Corinne Vien?

  Ooh, I think about that every time the Achilles tendon like just getting snipped underneath the stairs.

• 1:01:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Hate it.

• 1:01:57Corinne Vien?

  Or just being pulled apart at a gas station with two trucks.

• 1:02:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Horrible.

• 1:02:01Corinne Vien?

  This is what kids born in the 80s and 90s grew up watching.

• 1:02:06Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But so throughout all of these movies, the franchise's villain, who Ed Gein inspired, has remained the same. So if you haven't seen any iteration of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, I'm going to give a log line. A group of friends are traveling through rural Texas when they stop by this old farmstead. One by one, they're picked off by a chainsaw wielding villain known as Leatherface, who is a former butcher who makes and wears masks of human skin to hide his own identity. So just by that quick synopsis, you can see how Leatherface was clearly inspired by Ed Gein and his horrific crimes. Plus also, the like, old farm in the middle of nowhere.

• 1:02:49Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 1:02:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So then there's the desecration of bodies, the trophies made of human remains. This is all taken from a page in Ed Gein's book. But there is one interesting fact that I learned in preparation for this episode. In an interview, co-writer and director Toby Hooper said that he learned about Ed when he was just four or five years old.

• 1:03:11Corinne Vien?

  Who told him?

• 1:03:13Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  He said relatives of his lived just one town over from Ed Gein in Wisconsin and told his family about the crimes as they were happening.

• 1:03:21Corinne Vien?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:03:22Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So like, he and his family were getting the inside scoop in real time.

• 1:03:26Corinne Vien?

  Alive, yeah.

• 1:03:28Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So it was something that always stuck with Hooper, especially with the story hitting so close to home.

• 1:03:35Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Have you seen Texas Chainsaw Massacre?

• 1:03:37Corinne Vien?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:03:39Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Have you seen multiple versions of it?

• 1:03:40Corinne Vien?

  No, I think I've only seen the one that you did.

• 1:03:42Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, it is unsettling. And as my intro into horror movies, I will say it's a good one to start with.

• 1:03:51Corinne Vien?

  But if you like gore.

• 1:03:52Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, it is gory.

• 1:03:53Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, it's very gory.

• 1:03:55Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Oh, and the moments of like hiding in the like old buildings attached to the farmhouse, hearing the chainsaw going.

• 1:04:03Corinne Vien?

  Your heart's just, your heart's just constantly beating watching that.

• 1:04:07Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I know.

• 1:04:07Corinne Vien?

  But if we want to do a more psychological spin on Ed Gein's story, then let's go to the next movie, because this one still gives us nightmares. Silence of the Lambs.

• 1:04:16Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And if it weren't 11 a.m., I'd say let's crack open a bottle of Chianti, get some bowls of fava beans, and skip out on the liver.

• 1:04:24Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:26Corinne Vien?

  All right, well, here's the TLDR. An FBI agent in training, Clarice Starling, played by the iconic Jodie Foster, asks for the help of a cannibalistic psychiatrist named Dr. Hannibal Lecter. And she asks for help when she needs to find another serial killer named Buffalo Bill. Author Thomas Harris drew inspiration from Ed Gein when conjuring up Buffalo Bill's character. And if you've read the books, or if you've seen the movies, you know that one of Buffalo Bill's identifying traits is dressing up in a suit of female flesh, exactly like the one that was found in Ed Gein's farmhouse on that fateful day that Bernice disappeared. Buffalo Bill also has the defining trait of mutilating and skinning his victims. Again, taken from a page from Ed Gein's book.

• 1:05:12Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Of the movies inspired by Ed Gein, I think this is the one that sticks with me the most. Because it is. I mean, if you're a horror movie fan, I feel like this is one of your go-tos, Silence of the Lambs.

• 1:05:25Corinne Vien?

  And a psychological thriller, and it still has the gore. It's just so disturbing.

• 1:05:30Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It is. There was a time in my life where I would do dinners with friends and we'd pick a movie and then make a dinner associated to the movie, or like relative to the movie. And we did a Silence of the Lambs night.

• 1:05:43Corinne Vien?

  Oh, God. Okay. At least it was the first one and not the second one.

• 1:05:46Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, no, it was just the first one.

• 1:05:47Corinne Vien?

  Yeah, because the second one eats the guy's brain while he's still alive.

• 1:05:51Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I was not serving humans at my dinner party.

• 1:05:53Corinne Vien?

  It's an interesting choice for a dinner party. I'll say that.

• 1:05:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  I'm a weird person and I'm proud of it.

• 1:05:59Corinne Vien?

  And that's why we sit here in these chairs today.

• 1:06:00Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  That's why we're talking about this. No, but I do think it's one of those things where as humans, we want to understand patterns and we want to understand the why behind things. And that's why so many killers and people like Ed Gein are so fascinating to us because they feel so foreign from you and I.

• 1:06:20Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. Thank God.

• 1:06:22Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yeah, yes, exactly. But it's also scary and it feels real. And there are victims that perhaps like, like we could be victims and there's this desire to want to protect ourselves.

• 1:06:35Corinne Vien?

  Right. I was just gonna say that. Like, there's something in like studying the clues and studying what happened to see if there is any way of like identifying if this is about to happen to us. And like, what are the ways that we could potentially survive?

• 1:06:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Like, how do you catch a killer before they kill? And I think that's the, that would be the goal for everyone, but

• 1:06:55Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Instead, we look back afterwards. So now, maybe the most infamous nod to Ed Gein is the character Norman Bates, the main character in Psycho. But before we talk about the movie, let's talk about the book, Robert Bloch, because there is something really eerie that happened here.

• 1:07:16Corinne Vien?

  So creepy.

• 1:07:16Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  And you told me about this.

• 1:07:18Corinne Vien?

  Yes.

• 1:07:18Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So you tell me about it again.

• 1:07:19Corinne Vien?

  Okay. So it turns out Bloch was writing the novel Psycho in 1958, 35 miles away from where Gein lived. And this is when all of these crimes are happening. But Bloch has no idea the full extent of Gein's history and the murders until after the book was already published. So shockingly, his character Norman Bates is eerily similar to Ed Gein. He was writing this book just miles from where Ed Gein was committing these atrocious acts, but had no clue.

• 1:07:50Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  It reminds me of like that book, and I can't remember the name of it, but it was like about a big ship that was doing a transatlantic journey that crashed in a very similar way to the Titanic that was written years before the Titanic crashed.

• 1:08:05Corinne Vien?

  Yes, it's weird. It's like, what is going on in the universe? Or like the ether? Like, they're picking up on some sort of energy. And it does make me wonder, not to get like woo-woo, but you were mentioning-

• 1:08:14Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  But if you know us from Two Girls One Goes, we get woo-woo. So sometimes you're gonna get a little woo-woo here.

• 1:08:18Corinne Vien?

  Yeah. But you were talking about like, what if Augusta was whispering in Ed's ear? It makes me wonder if somehow this author unknowingly was tapping into like, whatever was going on in paranormal realm, in this other dimension, and was kind of getting bits and pieces of maybe what Ed was being told, or even just Ed's mind himself.

• 1:08:35Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. Or as a writer, like sometimes when I'm writing, like, I feel like I kind of just, the muse writes through me. Like, I feel like I kind of disassociate and then words just like come out.

• 1:08:47Corinne Vien?

  Automatic writing, taken over by the spirit?

• 1:08:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. So is there also an element of that? When you're so creative, you're in a project that like, the universe is kind of speaking through you?

• 1:08:56Corinne Vien?

  But how ironic that writing is such an atrocious monster when the monster lives next door.

• 1:09:02Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. It's like Block was channeling Ed in some freaky otherworldly way. So then this book was then adapted into a film by Alfred Hitchcock, King of Horror, in 1960. And while there are some differences, like Ed never ran away from, like Ed never ran a hotel like Norman Bates did, and he never killed anyone in the shower like that infamous scene in Psycho, like Norman did. And Ed didn't keep the corpse of his mother in his home, although arguably he did, because he did take the head into his home.

• 1:09:34Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 1:09:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So the similarities that the two did share were intricate, like the sexual repression both Augusta and Norma encouraged in their sons. They both fostered a deep emotional dependence in their children, and that led to a disturbing adipose complex in both men. And then also both men snapped after their mother's untimely deaths. So this movie has so many twists and turns and other similarities to Ed Gein that we don't want to spoil it for you. But if you haven't seen it, what are you doing? Who are you? What's wrong with you? Sorry. No, no judgment.

• 1:10:06Corinne Vien?

  Pause this episode right now. Go watch it and come back.

• 1:10:09Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Yes. Have a movie marathon after this episode.

• 1:10:12Corinne Vien?

  With fava beans and Chianti, apple pie with a slice of cheese on top.

• 1:10:16Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Cause this is absolutely one to add to your watch list.

• 1:10:19Corinne Vien?

  And I think all of this begs a more interesting question.

• 1:10:22Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What's that, Corinne? What's more interesting?

• 1:10:24Corinne Vien?

  What is it about Ed Gein and all of these real life monsters? That makes for such fascinating onscreen characters? Why are they messed up? Why are we messed up watching it?

• 1:10:37Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  We're all a little bit messed up in the head. But I think in a way, they also force us to confront our own darkest fears. Like the idea that not everyone out there has a mind that works like ours.

• 1:10:48Corinne Vien?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Like, I don't think about, or sexualize murder.

• 1:10:54Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 1:10:54Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  In this way. So it feels so foreign to me that I want to understand it. And it makes us want to understand someone else's psyche, how they operate, how they think, why do they do the things that they do? And it does expose the unimaginable things in human beings and that human beings are capable of. Like, we spend a lot of time talking about the paranormal, but at the end of the day, the scariest thing is truly other living beings. All of this challenges our perception of reality and it upsets the natural order. And then another scary part is the wrong combination of nature and nurture. Like, anyone could become someone like Ed Gein, and you referenced this, or you made a note to

• 1:11:36Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  this earlier in the episode, but like, there are plenty of people who have traumatic childhoods and grow up with unstable parents who then don't become serial killers.

• 1:11:44Corinne Vien?

  Right.

• 1:11:45Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So the nature nurture.

• 1:11:46Corinne Vien?

  There's a mix of it with.

• 1:11:47Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Comes in there, yeah.

• 1:11:48Corinne Vien?

  Ed Gein.

• 1:11:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right. Like, how can you make certain that it doesn't happen to us? Or it doesn't happen to our children that we raise?

• 1:11:54Corinne Vien?

  And honestly, for some killers, they have a perfectly normal childhood. Like, I think of Ted Bundy. He has siblings that are nothing like him.

• 1:12:01Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Right, right. So maybe that's why true crime is, as a whole, something we can't look away from, because it forces us to not only face our fears, but helps us convince ourselves that we can spot the dangers, allows us to think that maybe we can avoid them, or hope we can avoid them. And it gives us a feeling that if we can understand it, we can control it.

• 1:12:22Corinne Vien?

  But there's one thing to remember in all of this. At the center of these horror movie muses lie very real people, living very real lives. There's no one calling cut on a scene. There's no heading back to the trailer to remove the costumes, the makeup, the fake blood. There's no movie premiere or Oscar for best performance. So next time you press play on your favorite horror movie, particularly the ones inspired by true events, remember that the scariest monsters aren't the ones on the big screen. They're the ones in the shadows lurking amongst us.

• 1:12:57Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  So maybe don't watch all those movies. Maybe watch Bravo's Summer House, or something more relaxing after this.

• 1:13:06Corinne Vien?

  Thank you so much for listening. We are your hosts, Sabrina DiAniroga and Corinne Vienn. Join us next Tuesday for another peek inside another Crimes of Infamy. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you've heard today, reach out on all social media, at Crime House. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Crimes of wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 1:13:31Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Thank you so much for joining us, and we can't wait to see you next week. We're so excited to be here on Crimes of, and we're glad that you're here with us.

• 1:13:39Corinne Vien?

  And if you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to subscribe. And also, what should we call everyone?

• 1:13:44Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  What do you want to be called?

• 1:13:46Corinne Vien?

  Tell us. What's this community? Who are you guys?

• 1:13:49Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Who are we, all as a group?

• 1:13:51Corinne Vien?

  Comment on YouTube, we'll figure it out. See you next time.

• 1:13:54Sabrina Deana-Roga?

  Bye.