Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel I Waited for You to be Ready but Now I’m 40 and Childless About this episode They were in love for 6 years and building a life together. They froze embryos and agreed on a timeline for getting pregnant. But when the time came, he wavered, and the relationship fell apart. Now she finds herself alone, angry, scared, and having to rethink her definition of family. She asks Esther, how she can remain hopeful when everything feels so lost?
Topic - Conflict & Polarization
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected] .
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Transcript 7,177 words · 10 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Hi Esther.
0:04 Speaker 00 I find myself in a really difficult moment. I have just separated from my life partner. I have about six years. And we had frozen some embryos together about four years ago. And, long story short, I'm 40. The time has come to sort of begin to talk about actually getting pregnant and having the baby. I've made very clear over the years that I'd like to get pregnant in my 40th year. Kept pushing it, kept pushing it. And he was not able to speak about it head on. Literally not a direct conversation about it. And over five months of couples therapy, it was circular talk and semantics and I'm wrong
0:49 Speaker 00 about everything type thing, when it was just really clear to me.
0:54 Speaker 00 Or it became really clear to me that having a baby at 40 with the love of my life and my life partner shouldn't feel like a war.
1:04 Speaker 00 So, since separating, things have sort of escalated and gotten quite activated between us. And I now see, which I think other people saw before me, that actually having a baby with this person in any way, in any sort of co-parenting creative way, is actually not possible. And that these embryos are not going to be able to be used. It's just not right. It's not a good situation and I'm terrified.
1:32 Speaker 00 My question is, how do I not forgive him? Because there's no accountability, there's no idea the magnitude of what's been lost and what's going on. But how do I forgive myself? How do I forgive myself for allowing my time, which is one of the most valuable things I have? My timeline, my fertility, my femininity, to be so undervalued that I am in this situation where I feel like I've already sacrificed so much for motherhood and it's such an unknown. I have no idea how I'm going to have a family now. And I live in a little bit of terror that perhaps by loving the wrong person and being
2:11 Speaker 00 so wrong about something that felt so right, that I've really jeopardized my potential for a family. How do I hold all that while also...
2:27 Speaker 00 Keeping the faith, which is what I need so much of right now.
2:33 Speaker 00 So anyway, I wonder if you can help with any of that.
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4:11 Esther Perel? How would you like to start? Because I also understand that things have evolved rapidly from the first time you reached out to where you are today. So you can plug me in where you started with us, or you can plug me in as to where you are today and walk your way backwards a little bit.
4:31 Speaker 04 Yeah, I'll give you sort of a brief overview. I originally called in October after a very intense couples therapy session with my partner of six years, where I... Proposed that maybe we would separate and I would have a baby on my own. And he would have some involvement that we discuss. We froze some embryos together four years ago. And it was sort of unspoken, but very spoken, that I could wait till I'm forty. And then we sort of have to begin to talk and I did the embryos when I was thirty six and we had a lot of healthy embryos.
5:11 Esther Perel? I was very grateful. Mm hmm.
5:12 Speaker 04 So that's October. We've not had a direct conversation since that couples therapy session. That weekend, a couple of days later, I asked him to leave the house because he wasn't able to directly address the issue of literally saying like a declarative sentence about whether we could use these embryos, whether separation, anything. He had an inability to discuss it. And we had been in a high conflict couple therapy for four to five months. And within those couples therapy sessions, a lot of rage started to come out on both sides, I'll say. But nonstop, nonstop.
5:55 Esther Perel? And the rage, the resentment, the conflict was focused on what? Just so I have a some sense.
6:02 Speaker 04 It's really hard to say. I would say it was focused on me. And it would happen within couples therapy sessions. I think it was, I want to be with this person. I don't want to have a family with this person right now. If I don't have a family with this person right now, I might lose this person. I think something along those lines.
6:22 Esther Perel? Said who?
6:23 Speaker 04 Said him. I think we'd have to ask him.
6:25 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
6:26 Speaker 04 I think the idea is I have no idea where the rage comes from. But since October, I've realized that
6:34 Speaker 04 I don't think we can use those embryos.
6:37 Speaker 04 I don't think that having a baby with this person is the right decision. With the help of a therapist and some time away, I think it's probably not the healthiest situation. We are very dysregulated when we are together now and we cannot seem to move forward.
6:58 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
6:59 Speaker 04 So within the last three months, I've sort of decided I've moved out. It's been two weeks. And I'm forty and I went to the fertility clinic on Friday and I'm.
7:12 Speaker 05 I'm terrified. I'm living in so much fear. And I'm a pretty faithful, hopeful person. And I have lost all of my hope. I have lost all of my vision. I've lost a lot.
7:32 Esther Perel? Um.
7:33 Speaker 05 I feel.
7:34 Esther Perel? What happened at the clinic that?
7:38 Speaker 05 I've already done this once. You know, I put my body through a lot. And the reserve is low. The reserve is low, the time is now. There's no money. There's no
7:53 Speaker 05 stability within and without for me to be making these decisions, but ultimately
8:02 Speaker 05 I feel I've been making sort of
8:05 Speaker 05 these decisions for my future family. Rather than necessarily only my present self. And it's been extremely hard to navigate. My sense of regret. My sense of loss of time. And ultimately, like a huge loss of respect from my partner for not acknowledging my timeline and sort of my my value.
8:35 Speaker 05 And I haven't even been able to focus on the loss of the relationship, which has been horrific and blown up. Because I'm dealing with the magnitude of something that I feel is much greater, like motherhood and fertility.
8:52 Speaker 05 And it's really difficult and I'm doing it alone.
8:57 Esther Perel? Can I ask you just a couple of more factual questions? Do you only have frozen embryos or do you also have frozen eggs?
9:05 Speaker 05 I only have frozen embryos.
9:08 Speaker 05 It's a huge, huge regret. And I'm not someone who lives in regret, so that feeling is very, very confusing.
9:17 Esther Perel? And they're telling you that your fertility at this point is in total decline?
9:24 Esther Perel? And they are encouraging you to freeze something, but you don't have the means to do so, nor the headspace at this moment either.
9:33 Speaker 04 Exactly.
9:34 Esther Perel? He does not want children, children now, children with you, or is he okay being a donor? A known donor?
9:45 Speaker 04 I think we are not able to have those conversations in a healthy way that keeps us both safe, let's say. I can only answer with speculation, but I think he's definitely not ready now. And I think does, and he's left it open-ended, which is excruciating.
10:10 Esther Perel? How did the ending occur? It's a reactive ending. You're just in the middle of a fight and one of you said, "Fuck you, I'm out of here", or "Get out of here", or was this, we are really at a crossroads? And are we able to grieve? Are we able to acknowledge loss,
10:31 Esther Perel? letdown, or are we just barking?
10:35 Speaker 04 That's a great question. I think we're barking, but basically, it was, I was being ignored. I was being direct and communicative and everything, and courageous and brave, and coming up with a lot of solutions. And I was being literally not reacted to. And it's sort of like, "Oh, maybe we'll do it next year", or, you know, it's sort of a little bit of a control thing to not say yes and not say no. Initially, I compromised. I said, "Will you sign off? I'll do it in a year. We'll wait a year, and then in my forty-first year, we'll figure it out. You can, we can figure it out." I've made so many, and nothing comes back. But I think it is the
11:20 Speaker 04 the rage, the incompatibility, the deep, deep, deep sort of a betrayal that I feel,
11:30 Speaker 04 that I don't, I don't think it's healthy to use these embryos that we have.
11:41 Speaker 04 Which I didn't think I was so connected to using them for so long. I, I, we can make it work this, that, but.
11:49 Esther Perel? But that very thinking, we can make it work, is what kept you for six years? And what else? What was the quality of the relationship? That made you believe this is gonna resolve itself? It's not a matter of if, but a matter of when.
12:09 Speaker 04 And if I tell you, I believed so much. I held the vision of our life. We bought a house, we froze embryos. We, we had a high quality of life, a deep connection. And I didn't think that he wouldn't come through. And again, he's not being clear, he probably will come through, but it's that I'm being forced to make these decisions. I think he was in control of the relationship the whole time.
12:38 Speaker 04 And ultimately, I was going along with everything.
12:43 Esther Perel? I'm gonna ask you to tell me more, and then I'm gonna ask you, what can we focus on today?
12:50 Esther Perel? And what feels most urgent and important?
12:56 Speaker 04 Um, I think my question is really one of faith.
13:01 Speaker 04 Really, and I see that so much in your work, you keep such a sense of magic. Turn the corner, you never know. And I really, really hold that and integrate that into my life fully. And I have no hope.
13:19 Speaker 04 At a time when I need it most.
13:23 Esther Perel? And I have no hope that I will have a family, I will have a child, I will have a partner. I will have him, we will reunite, which part? Which, everything?
13:34 Speaker 04 That I will have a family. That I will have a family that feels
13:40 Speaker 04 right for me.
13:44 Speaker 04 And that feels comfortable, I think ultimately.
13:48 Speaker 04 I I don't know a lot, but I felt that having a baby at forty with the love of my life shouldn't feel like going to war. And I began to sort of change and begin to protect myself and my idea of what
14:08 Speaker 04 a home and and love should be. And ultimately,
14:14 Speaker 04 that there's a there's a way, that there's a way forward for what I for what I want. And that it's okay
14:23 Speaker 04 to have made the decisions I made at the time. And and I think my question to you is, how do I grieve this? How do I work through what is so deep and so masked by so much anger? Right? I'm getting emails about rent and separation and things like this. And I'm thinking to myself, this doesn't even come close to the magnitude of the things that I I'm focusing on.
14:54 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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16:49 Esther Perel? Give me a bit of a sense of your whereabouts. You moved out, he moved out, you have, tell me...
16:55 Speaker 04 We owned a home together. And I think that moving into the home that we bought together was sort of the beginning of the end. That was about two years ago, it was a family home. And he wouldn't move in. It was sitting there for a year and a half, just looking at it. And, you know, 10 minutes from where we lived. It just never felt like a home. Something about taking that next step and really talking about and creating sort of our life and family vision together. We went through the steps. We made huge life decisions together and there was just something missing.
17:41 Speaker 04 Just something missing. And I don't know, support, like camaraderie, some sort of, some unspoken thing that maybe I've never really even had in a relationship, but something where...
17:54 Esther Perel? We were in this together?
17:55 Speaker 04 Yeah, I'm not defending myself, I'm not convincing. I started to think, why don't I deserve to have these things? Why am I made to feel that I don't deserve to have these things?
18:08 Speaker 05 Right, why do I have to discuss and defend and speak about, I've done so much, I sacrificed my body and my time.
18:17 Speaker 05 Right, and I'm a supportive partner and patient and acquiesced and compromising. But I think ultimately if my partner's problems have to do with time, that's not a me issue. That's a science, that's a God issue. Right, and then where is the intersection, how do I know that I'm in some ways taking the step first, the first step towards motherhood, right, making these sacrifices for something that I know will be nourishing and, and full of love, rather than, you know, I got a puppy in June, and I got a glimpse into what it might be like
19:03 Speaker 05 to have to refocus our life on taking care of something else.
19:10 Speaker 05 And it was very, very lonely.
19:14 Speaker 05 And very, very, um, hard to see, like a daily sort of Teflon rejection of like pure unconditional love. And that is when I started to see the yelling, the fighting, the effects on the environment, the effects on myself.
19:35 Speaker 05 I became a totally different person. I've lost, as you can hear in this conversation, my internal compass, of which it's so strong.
19:46 Speaker 05 And ultimately, I know that I'm making good decisions and I have the support, and I had the witness of a couples therapist who was very helpful to be able to see what I couldn't let anyone else see.
20:05 Esther Perel? What has actually happened? You just parted one day and that's it?
20:10 Speaker 04 Mm hmm. I asked him to leave the house.
20:12 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
20:13 Speaker 04 And we've seen each other twice since. And only communicate via email.
20:19 Esther Perel? And talk about furniture or talk about what?
20:22 Speaker 04 Hmm, being mean, being mean, talking about furniture, talking about money. Logistics. I moved out. I did it of my own accord, on my own. Creating sort of a new life. In which I can have the means to create my own family.
20:39 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
20:40 Speaker 04 Right? It's about dependence. And that I was dependent with someone for the first time.
20:47 Esther Perel? Financially.
20:49 Speaker 04 Financially, emotionally.
20:51 Esther Perel? There's two parts and they're not one and the same. So, when you say I'm trying to create an infrastructure that allows me to pay for the expenses of infertility treatments and fertility treatments and banks and storage, et cetera. I don't wanna just bring it to a psychological conversation. There's a, there's a material component to it, there's a financial component. There's, you know, a number of different considerations and they're not just internal experiences. I know that sometimes it's not common that people ask questions about finances, but in this instance, it's an important piece.
21:37 Speaker 04 Thank you for saying that. I think that that is where the terror stems for me. Right? Me personally, the emotional navigation, I can, we can, we can figure that out. I can put left foot in front of right. But the, the, the, the finances, the means, the things feel a little bit out of my control.
22:01 Speaker 04 Within such a short timeframe.
22:05 Speaker 04 Is really pulling me back to a less adult, to a less
22:15 Speaker 04 strong place, less, so many unknowns.
22:18 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
22:22 Esther Perel? But the unknowns, you feel that they bring you back to something that is more vulnerable because of it being unknown? Or this is part and parcel of how does one start this whole process again now? Not within the context of an established relationship on the heels of a betrayal? I mean, again, I want to make sure that we don't just psychologize for the sake of psychologizing.
22:51 Speaker 05 Yes, yes, like getting on the train and going to the fertility clinic, the same one that I went to four years ago. That's a psychological, right? Then you go into the room, you get information, not psychological.
23:03 Esther Perel? Correct.
23:03 Speaker 05 Right? And I'm...
23:05 Esther Perel? I have to struggle these two things, yes.
23:08 Speaker 05 I'm, oh, I can feel it. I can feel it. I do think it touches a little bit more deeply for me. The, the means. I didn't grow up with very much money. I've never been in this financial position in my life. Um, and it was important for me to solidify financial means in order to have a family. And I think that was a big part of my relationship and staying with it. And it was, it was open and on the table. And, and I feel that a loss of money comes with a loss of control. I'm gaining control of other things. Myself, my family, in a sense.
23:52 Speaker 05 But how?
23:57 Esther Perel? You had a storyboard.
24:00 Speaker 05 Hmm.
24:00 Esther Perel? I meet man, we fall in love, we develop a relationship, we conceive together, we have a child together, we become a family. And it's a very...
24:18 Esther Perel? Powerful and linear storyboard. It's one way to get there. But it comes with the things that you experience similarly and the things that are very different. It comes with different biologies, different time clocks, different priorities, different urgencies. And it comes with similarities around vision and choices for the relationship and desires and interests and so forth. But it has built in a ton of things which you need to constantly rationalize. And then you created a story which was very compelling.
25:03 Esther Perel? At forty, we will do. Sign me a contract, you know, that at forty, you know, there is that round number, that decade. And until then, I will basically follow your rhythm, your track. And that's why I get a sense as to I know nothing about him. I don't know what story he tells himself or others, how he experiences what just happened. Um, you know, if you are both competing about who betrayed who most, you feel abandoned, he feels pressured. Mm hmm. All of the above.
25:46 Esther Perel? Everything you said you promised, he says I never said. Uh, or I said what when, but it was different. And I can't say it now because look at you. Look how you fight with me. How can I continue with this? Don't you see it's impossible? You wouldn't want to have a kid in, under these circumstances. Look at us, we're not a couple who can handle it, you know. Exactly, exactly, all of it. May I ask you something? Do you believe, it's got a sound of a strange question, the way I just started it. Do you, of course, I've already answered my own question. But it's like, do you believe that his embryos are already imbued
26:29 Esther Perel? with his story, not with his genetic material, but with his story?
26:35 Speaker 05 No, I mean, there's no way for me to know that. There's no way.
26:40 Esther Perel? But you're talking about faith, so I'm asking you. It's a question of belief. Does it have your story in it? I waited, I deferred, I believed in him. I am so upset at myself. How could I believe in him? How did I surrender my, my power, my will, my autonomy, my timeline, my biology? I, I'm so upset with him, but I'm even more upset with myself now. I don't know, you know, do I, you know? If I go further, it's like, maybe I just don't deserve it because I behaved in the way that I did. Now I can punish myself and I'll retaliate on myself. I mean.
27:17 Speaker 05 Exactly. Are you in my head? I'm shocked to hear you sort of spam that as you did. Even just hearing that is somehow comforting.
27:30 Esther Perel? So if I was a friend of yours going through this, because you know you're not alone in this predicament. It's quantities of women in your situation. And if I was your friend who came and wept on your shoulder and told you how I am berating myself? And how could I be so stupid? And what was I thinking? And, and now what? And here I am and on and on. What would you say to me?
28:03 Esther Perel? If there is something to say after you've hugged me and after you've shared solidarity? What? Yeah, you did, you don't deserve, forget having kids, you've lost your chance. Or hopefully you would say many other things, but what would you say to me? Let's switch.
28:21 Speaker 05 Um. I think I would say what I'm hearing from my friends, which is you're doing your best.
28:31 Speaker 04 I'm proud of you. And, I mean, to be honest, sister, I really don't know. I really, I really don't know, because part of me would be really scared and afraid for that friend, I think, in some ways.
28:46 Esther Perel? You're not trying to say everything will be great, you're not selling snake oil.
28:51 Speaker 04 Hmm.
28:53 Esther Perel? Yeah, it's an informed, mature pondering about options, about costs, about alternatives, about cheaper places than the one where you live, to do such things. The most important thing you would do as a friend
29:15 Speaker 04 Hmm.
29:16 Esther Perel? is you would help with the complete sense of overwhelm and flooding.
29:20 Speaker 04 How?
29:22 Esther Perel? We're gonna take, we're gonna take this step by step.
29:29 Speaker 04 The first step, move out.
29:32 Esther Perel? Okay, you've done that.
29:34 Speaker 04 So now we're at step two.
29:37 Esther Perel? Did you move out? Just, I can't stay here another minute? Or did you move out and make sure that you're handling matters? You own this place?
29:49 Speaker 04 Both.
29:50 Esther Perel? Okay, good. Because sometimes, we get so, I can't take this anymore, I'm just, I gotta get out, and we just say like what you said in the first sentence. The questions of motherhood are way more important than the questions of real estate. They are, but everything is interrelated.
30:09 Speaker 04 What do I do with the thing, that feeling that comes up in me when the motherhood is not addressed or talked about? Or in every email that I send, I mention embryos or something about it, and it is just literally...
30:24 Esther Perel? To him?
30:25 Speaker 04 Mm-hmm.
30:27 Esther Perel? Look, the question I have is, what happened?
30:33 Speaker 05 That's a great question.
30:34 Esther Perel? I mean. But it's a kind question.
30:38 Speaker 05 Hmm, I I think I think.
30:40 Esther Perel? As in curious, not as in, you know, kind of what happened? Look at what just, how did we unravel in full speed like this? Here we are, something that we once experienced as a wish, that we shared, a desire.
30:58 Speaker 05 Yeah.
30:59 Esther Perel? Has turned into a total war. What happened? What have I missed that I didn't hear? That you tried to tell me? Or what did you try to tell me that you couldn't tell me?
31:12 Speaker 05 Or how was I misled?
31:16 Speaker 05 Or is that not an option? Is that not one of the choices?
31:20 Esther Perel? It's not a question.
31:23 Esther Perel? Because you've already answered, I I was misled. You know, basically, you can just say, look, from him, I need a little bit of clarity. So that I don't feel like I've just been whiplashed. What actually happened between us? That's the first thing. What did I miss? You know? And did I miss it? Or do you think we colluded in a kind of a mezzo mezzo conversation? I didn't want to push, because at that time I didn't want to push. He didn't want to be pushed. And so we found ourselves in this kind of no man's land. Yeah?
32:00 Speaker 05 Yeah.
32:01 Esther Perel? Um, it's six years, you've been living together. How many years did you live together?
32:07 Speaker 05 Hmm, almost four.
32:08 Esther Perel? Okay, it's not like, you know.
32:11 Speaker 05 And we were so in love, so perfectly well suited with our lifestyle, how we raised the kids, what school? This dad where we would travel, what languages, so, so detailed.
32:22 Esther Perel? So what came up for you? That suddenly you lost your compass? You lost your north? You know, because it was your north too? Or did I, did I really misunderstand this and it was always only mine? In my memory, I see us sharing a future together and talking about our vision for the future. And in my present, it suddenly feels like I was alone on that stage. Performing a play for two.
32:53 Speaker 05 That's exactly how I feel.
32:55 Esther Perel? Right, so am I mistaken? I just would appreciate if you can help clarify that for me. I need some of that. And I assume that you wouldn't, that it would be better for you too. So, that's, you know, you can continue rage, but maybe not at him directly. Because it's not, you need some, you need a few things. You need clarity. You need to know that you didn't invent reality.
33:21 Speaker 05 I feel like I did. I feel.
33:24 Esther Perel? You go back and forth. One minute you think you invented reality. Because it can't be that it was so off. And the next minute you say we were talking about schools and the future and all of that. We were in shared reality.
33:37 Speaker 05 Wow.
33:38 Esther Perel? You're going back and forth. And all of this is very normal and very common.
33:42 Speaker 05 I was just about to ask that. I was just gonna ask, would you give me a little perspective on where you, you, you don't know left from right? This idea of making a decision and suddenly.
33:55 Esther Perel? So when you say to me, how can you say what's in my head? Without having heard me say it. It's because in some way I've heard it.
34:04 Speaker 05 Yeah.
34:04 Esther Perel? I've just created a composite of a lot of different voices. And you tell me if it resonates for you. But the only way I do know to do this is because, because you're not the only one. You're not the first one. And because it's happening often and maybe too often.
34:24 Speaker 05 I mean, the guilt that I feel of having chosen the wrong partner for this. And being sort of complicit and being misled or misleading myself or some combination.
34:34 Esther Perel? I don't think you chose the wrong partner for this. No, no, I'm willing to give now.
34:40 Speaker 05 Wow.
34:41 Esther Perel? I don't know the person and, but I sometimes think if a person is in the story. But as they get closer. They suddenly flee. Something else is happening that may have very little to do with you.
34:57 Speaker 04 Uh huh.
34:58 Esther Perel? I may be completely off and, you know, when I say this, I hear one voice in me says, it's important to have curiosity for where he came from. And another voice can hear people who say, you cut that person way too much slack or... But no, I think if you heard for three years, we want this together, then you heard it.
35:24 Esther Perel? There may be things in between that you didn't want to pay enough attention to. Then you got to thirty-eight, then you said to yourself, you know, if I leave now, I'm going to start the whole thing all over. Who knows when I would be meeting someone, if I will be meeting someone. And yet he and I are doing so well together. We have such a beautiful life. You know, I cannot imagine he's not going to want to go through with this. So, sunk and cost.
35:51 Speaker 04 Right.
35:51 Esther Perel? That too is what many women often tell themselves.
35:57 Speaker 04 And even more, even like, it'll be okay, I can be alone, or I can do it basically by myself, or I'll have an unavailable husband, and I'll have a kid, a dad who's just available, right? And, and, and being, and making all of that okay.
36:17 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.
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37:56 Esther Perel? There's something I just want to say. If you want to raise a child, a child you will raise.
38:06 Speaker 05 Tell me more about that.
38:08 Esther Perel? It may not come the way you have imagined. It may not be part of the love story and the romantic plot the way you have conceived of it and the way you've been told it should be. It may not be a donor that you know, and it may be a donor that you know, but not your own eggs and your own genetic material. It may not be any of the places that you or the references that we are familiar with, but you will have a child.
38:41 Esther Perel? It's not like an illness that when you have it, sometimes you can't reverse it.
38:49 Esther Perel? A child you will have. It may not come the way you have always thought of it, but a child you will have. You may birth it, you may not birth it, but a child you will have. It's very important to... That's the fate.
39:08 Speaker 05 I was just... Esther, thank you so much for saying that.
39:13 Speaker 05 That's the fate. That's...
39:18 Speaker 04 That's such a good thing to say.
39:21 Esther Perel? Understand, that child may come out of you, that child may have been born before you met him. You have to begin to think in the plural of the multiple forms and the multiple manifestations.
39:34 Speaker 04 Yes.
39:35 Esther Perel? Now, do I promise you? No, I cannot.
39:38 Speaker 04 No.
39:38 Esther Perel? But I do know that if you multiply the manifestations, it changes the plot and it increases the fate.
39:48 Speaker 04 That is so helpful. Can you say it again?
39:52 Esther Perel? Yes.
39:55 Esther Perel? A child you will have. If you want to raise a child, there will be a child. It may not be your biological child, it may not be your partner's biological child. It may not grow inside of you, it may grow inside of you, you may give it birth, you may meet it later. But it will come. At this moment, you are exploring one plot, one track. You can continue to do so, but in the back of your mind, you need to know there are many ways that that child can manifest in my life.
40:33 Speaker 04 To broaden the vision.
40:35 Esther Perel? To broaden the vision of how you will have a child in your life, in your world.
40:42 Speaker 04 And the anger that comes with feeling that someone else is in control of that vision and now it's not possible, right? Is...
40:55 Speaker 04 Where, where, where do I put that? Just a little to the left?
41:00 Esther Perel? That's why I said to you, you didn't make the wrong choice. Something shifted here, something... Yes, you, you chose to respond to the nebulousness in a certain way. And that way is often what...
41:18 Esther Perel? Women experience when they are on a timeline, when they feel that they're getting close to their forties and when their relationship is okay. It's also not the relationship is bad and so you just hang in there for the sake. You think that the quality of the relationship will inspire your partner to want to continue and build a family. So, all of this is sensible, as we say. But at this moment, you're going to get a little bit, if you can, of clarity from him. You're going to broaden the backdrop for yourself.
41:56 Esther Perel? Because it's there, the anger, the grief, the sorrow, the betrayal, the loss. There's a lot of different feelings, but there's also the drive. You're not going to go alone to the clinics. That's one thing.
42:08 Speaker 05 Thank you for saying that, it was so hard. I had to go downstairs and come back. I was very difficult.
42:15 Esther Perel? Ask any of your strong women friends to go with you.
42:18 Speaker 05 It's a good idea.
42:19 Esther Perel? You know? You may not, you may not do any of the freezing in the city that you live in because outside of this area, there are many more affordable places to do so.
42:32 Speaker 05 That's such a good point. I didn't think about that either.
42:34 Esther Perel? Okay, so there's, there's that. There's, when I'm with my friends and I go to do these things, it's a very different experience than when I go alone and I go, me and my, me and my bereftness.
42:50 Speaker 05 That's the word I've been using to describe myself.
42:52 Esther Perel? Yeah, I feel bereft, you are.
42:56 Speaker 05 Fuck.
42:57 Esther Perel? Okay?
42:58 Speaker 05 Come on.
42:59 Esther Perel? You can also, this is just another, for every option I give you, I can hear somebody say, "That is totally crazy." But
43:10 Speaker 05 Good.
43:10 Esther Perel? I'll give them to you anyway. But you know, you could say to him, "Can I use him?"
43:18 Speaker 05 That's the conversation.
43:19 Esther Perel? Can I use him? And you can decide if you want to recognize, if you want to be a part of it or not. Or maybe you'll come in a few years. The door will be open to you.
43:34 Speaker 04 Even though I think I've closed that door.
43:37 Esther Perel? No, that doesn't mean we will be a relationship. That means you may become a co-parent. We will be platonic co-parents.
43:44 Speaker 04 I mean, that was the original conversation that led to.
43:48 Esther Perel? Yeah, but you you said it in a way that was I'm fed up of thinking of waiting. You know, I've had it. I'm going ahead on my own. Uh, fuck you. So that is not, that is a complete different agreement than to say, you know, I I I think I said.
44:06 Speaker 04 Here's what I'm thinking.
44:07 Esther Perel? Yeah, I set you up. Basically, you have to be strategic. What are the laws? Do you know the what are the laws for embryos? Do you know who owns them?
44:18 Speaker 04 Half, half. I think you both have to sign off on.
44:22 Esther Perel? So you need consent.
44:24 Speaker 04 And that's what I asked for, and I gave him a year, but I gotta make moves.
44:30 Esther Perel? But what have you said? I can sign and release you of any obligation?
44:36 Speaker 04 Yes.
44:37 Esther Perel? And?
44:39 Speaker 04 No response. He's in a battle with himself. I can't, you know what I mean? I'm I'm doing everything. I've got a lawyer, a therapist, whatever, duh, duh, duh. It's.
44:50 Esther Perel? Is he still coming with you to the therapist?
44:53 Speaker 04 No, we've stopped.
44:55 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, okay. Um.
44:59 Speaker 04 I'm I I get nervous about the rage. I get nervous.
45:03 Esther Perel? So that's your work, you know? It's a matter of timing. This is not the moment, even though you won't be able to not be raged. But.
45:14 Esther Perel? You know, but this is a moment for you to say, in here's what happens. In context, it made sense.
45:22 Esther Perel? It's easy to berate yourself afterwards. But in context, that day, we had just gone there. We had a beautiful time. We had this conversation. Of course, I was hopeful. It's very easy to judge oneself after the fact, because you take away all the circumstances and you're just left with the decision. It's like, what was I thinking?
45:44 Speaker 04 Yes.
45:45 Esther Perel? But when you bring back the rest of the décor, that thinking in the moment made sense.
45:53 Esther Perel? Afterwards, you can go back and what could I have done differently? And how did I not hear this and that? But at this moment, that is the channel that you probably need to dim a little bit.
46:04 Speaker 05 You're so right. You're so right. It's getting in the way.
46:14 Speaker 05 How do you soothe that rage in the moment when it comes swelling up?
46:20 Speaker 05 When I feel that someone's taken my life in their hands?
46:25 Esther Perel? And it's not the first time.
46:29 Speaker 05 And all the control and all the work and all the prep and all the thoughtfulness and all the helpness and all the spirituality and all the knowledge and all the work is for naught.
46:41 Speaker 05 I mean, that's, that's
46:46 Speaker 05 really scary. And maybe what you're saying is it's not for naught. It cannot be for nothing. Nothing is for nothing. Whoever you were at the time that made those embryos is imbued in naught. Those embryos are a part of me, whether I use them or not. And that there is, if a child is what I want, a child is what I will have. And the definition of family, the definition of child, the definition of parent can evolve. And I don't need to know what those things are necessarily right now in detail. But I need to know that they are available options
47:31 Speaker 05 that I can pull from in the infinite scope of what is possible.
47:37 Esther Perel? Uh huh. Yes, you heard it beautifully.
47:44 Speaker 05 Is it wrong to say it doesn't make me feel any better?
47:48 Esther Perel? No.
47:49 Speaker 05 It's not normal too.
47:51 Esther Perel? No, you shouldn't. Why would you feel better? You, you may, you know, it may make, it may help you not feel worse.
48:00 Esther Perel? It doesn't make you feel better, not in this moment. You know, it's okay. And if you get five minutes where it feels a little bit calmer, that's fine. And then it will be 10 minutes.
48:12 Esther Perel? But this is what needs to happen at this moment, not sure. You know, because...
48:20 Speaker 05 Because we're here.
48:22 Esther Perel? Yes, yes, yes. And because you have things to do.
48:27 Speaker 05 I have things to do. That is, that resonates so much. Thank you so much for listening and for sharing all of the wisdom and stories that you've heard and for being so tender with this topic.
48:48 Speaker 05 Providing a bigger lens, softer, rounded edges, you know.
48:55 Esther Perel? Thank you.
48:56 Speaker 05 Really helpful. Thank you.
48:58 Esther Perel? You're most welcome.
49:09 Speaker 09 This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
49:51 Speaker 09 And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
50:07 Speaker 06 Are you ever shopping online and suddenly a discount that helps you save pops up? It makes your day, sometimes even your week. Want that feeling month after month? Well, new customers who save by switching their home and auto insurance to Progressive, save hundreds. Cue your happy dance. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.
50:35 Speaker 08 Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.
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