I Leave First So You Can't Abandon Me

This week, Esther talks to a caller who often feels let down by her friends. She longs for deeper and more meaningful relationships and worries she is perhaps expecting too much from them. Together, they explore how the emotional responses tied to her past influence her current relationships with friends and her mom. Topic - Relationships with Family & Friends Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Esther Perel?

  I know nothing about you nor of the question that you sent. So, shall we listen first and then if there's anything you wanna add?

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Sure, that sounds good.

• 0:11Esther Perel?

  Let's do that.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Throughout my life, I've met a great number of people, especially because I grew up in foster care. I moved to the United States when I was eight years old and ended up going into foster care when I was 14. And I've had to move a lot, so I've gotten pretty good at just making friends, or at least putting myself out there. But I have a really hard time keeping friends. Many times, I end up leaving the friendships because I feel unfulfilled in them, especially when I don't feel like the other person is reciprocating what I'm doing. And I go above and beyond. And the moment I start to feel that this person doesn't do the same thing,

• 0:58Speaker 01

  I just decide they're not worth being my friend. And it seems to me that people today don't put the same level of effort into friendships, maybe as before. And I really, really want deep friendships. I want close friends that I spend time with, that we deeply know each other. But I feel like I have this problem where I just can't keep friends.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  And perhaps it's my age, you know, I'm 37 years old. And many of my friends or former friends have children. And maybe it's the time in their life when they're looking for other parents. I don't have children. I have an amazing boyfriend who listens to me complain a lot about my lack of deep friendships. And he's really supportive, but honestly, I think I'm putting too much pressure on him to also be my friend, to be all the things that I want. And I think I need to at least spare him some of that. And because I feel pretty lonely and I wanna make friends. So, just wanted to know what you think.

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• 3:36Esther Perel?

  Anything you would want to add?

• 3:40Speaker 05

  I think I want to add that the friendships I'm looking for are female friendships. I've always longed for close female bonds.

• 3:50Esther Perel?

  What has your boyfriend said about, because he is a witness to your social life, right? To your bonds and connections with your girlfriends. What does he see, just as somebody who's present for you?

• 4:08Speaker 05

  Well, he actually says I know a lot of people, and I do. He encourages me to reach out after I've been let down, which I have a hard time with sometimes. And he's told me that I tend to see the negatives more frequently than I see the positive things that are happening between me and my friends.

• 4:35Esther Perel?

  And what do you think of that?

• 4:38Speaker 05

  I think he's probably right. This whole concept of seeing the negative things more quickly, I've been reflecting on a lot more recently. Um, and trying to train myself to not automatically discount someone because they may have hurt me in the past and that's what keeps coming up for me. And it's as though I'm waiting for the next opportunity for them to let me down again. So I can say, well, there it goes, strike three, I'm over it, I'm done. Just this over and over feeling of just sadness sometimes

• 5:19Speaker 05

  because of the way that my friends may have reacted or said or done or whatever it is. And I'm, I think he's right, but I don't know how to fix that. I don't know how to lean more into the negative and to the positivity. It seems like I have to really stretch my mind and force myself to go into positives first.

• 5:40Esther Perel?

  I'll tell you what just popped into my head. Tell me i- if any of this is recognizable for you.

• 5:48Esther Perel?

  I have had friends who I saw at some point would cut off their relationships with other friends in the same logic as you. At some point, people were bound to disappoint them.

• 6:08Esther Perel?

  And then they cut.

• 6:11Esther Perel?

  And those of us who would still be in the pool, so to speak, would often feel like, maybe I can avoid it. It won't happen to me.

• 6:22Esther Perel?

  I know what they need or I know how to be there.

• 6:26Esther Perel?

  But inevitably, at some point, we too end up being cut off. Because we've done something that was hurtful or disappointing or didn't live up to the expectations.

• 6:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I've certainly been on the receiving end of that where friends have just disappeared and have not heard why. That's happened several times with really close friends and I don't know why.

• 6:58Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. But you primarily have been on the receiving end? Or it is something that you see yourself doing as well?

• 7:08Speaker 05

  It's hard to tell whether it's me ending it or if it's them ending the friendship. Just because I choose not to communicate doesn't mean that they wanted to maintain the friendship anyway, so I don't know.

• 7:22Esther Perel?

  But they live with the constant awareness that they could let you down. It's never safe that at any moment they can do something that will upset you, disappoint you, let you down.

• 7:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, I have never thought about that. But yeah, wow, yeah. And I'm sure that doesn't feel good for them to think that at any point someone could just get cut off like that.

• 7:54Esther Perel?

  And there is a peace inside of me, and I'm gonna use myself here, that at some point I think I can avoid this. It's not gonna happen to me, which is of course a delusion because there's no reason that that would not happen to me because it's not about me. It's what you described. I anticipate that people will let me down.

• 8:25Esther Perel?

  And it becomes the lens through which I look at my important friendships. And for some reason, it's bound to happen.

• 8:39Esther Perel?

  And then I start to feel like I need to act on it. I mean, I may just as well end this whole thing. So strike three arrives very fast.

• 8:54Esther Perel?

  It's not like necessarily I set it up, but somehow there is a strike three in most situations.

• 9:02Esther Perel?

  And so my question to you is, what do you think fuels this? This fear, this negative wish fulfillment?

• 9:16Speaker 05

  Well, um, I guess wanting to avoid feeling hurt at a greater capacity. I tend to be more anxious in all my relationships. I'm really good at sensing any form of change or movement or anything like that.

• 9:36Esther Perel?

  Did you get that training in your foster care?

• 9:38Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, I had to really know whether or not this foster parent or this this group home or whatever it was I was living in was going to um

• 9:50Speaker 05

  get rid of me. And even in those foster parent relationships, sometimes it would be me calling my social worker, asking to leave because I felt like they were going to tell me to leave.

• 10:05Esther Perel?

  Tell me more about, because that's, I can't imagine that your question and your fears and your awareness around your friends is not somewhat shaped by living so for quite a few years, right? In the foster system? Tell me, tell me a bit about that experience.

• 10:28Speaker 05

  So my mom and then my biological father and her were never together. They just had me, she was very, very young. And he immigrated to the United States and eight years later asked for me to come live with him. I'd never really met him. And I came to live with him and he was abusive. So that landed me in foster care, which was a life-saving experience for me, honestly.

• 10:54Esther Perel?

  Who caught him?

• 10:56Speaker 05

  I told.

• 10:58Esther Perel?

  Wonderful.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:59Esther Perel?

  To whom?

• 11:00Speaker 05

  I it took a few tries, first with his wife, which she didn't believe me. And then eventually, uh, my school, a really good friend at school who encouraged me to go to the principal and we talked to the school principal and I I never had to go back to live with him since.

• 11:20Speaker 05

  So after that, uh, just different group homes, different foster homes, but still just feeling this sort of never belonging in a family, uh.

• 11:33Esther Perel?

  Have you been in touch with your mom?

• 11:36Speaker 05

  Actually, yes, most recently, I actually, I'm going to see her, uh, in a month. I haven't seen her since I left Africa, yeah.

• 11:45Esther Perel?

  So in thirty-one years, or twenty-nine years, oh, wow.

• 11:49Speaker 05

  I know.

• 11:50Esther Perel?

  Hmm, that's a big moment for you.

• 11:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, I seem to have these big moments of reconciliation with people that are important to me, you know, at some capacity. And then, at the same time, I have these big moments of relationships ending. I feel like I'm often at the extreme of one or the other.

• 12:10Esther Perel?

  Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever see him again?

• 12:16Speaker 05

  In court, other than that, no. So, yeah, so with with foster families, uh,

• 12:25Speaker 05

  didn't work out too great with with most of them. I gained a brother through my foster care experience, so he and I are close, I'm very close to his children, his wife's family. And I visit often, and that's who I call my family now.

• 12:40Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:40Speaker 05

  But it's not a technical, blood-related or adoptive family, it's just, we've just taken that each other, that role in each other's lives.

• 12:49Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 12:52Esther Perel?

  And you've been there for each other.

• 12:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, which in my mind, and and here's me going into the negativity again.

• 13:03Esther Perel?

  You wanna do it, or you wanna?

• 13:05Speaker 05

  I don't know, I'm scared. I don't know if I'm supposed to or not. I call people who are overly positive toxic positivity.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  So I don't know.

• 13:18Esther Perel?

  No worries with me on that, but this is this is just a moment, right? We have one conversation, so you can do it both times. You can do it once.

• 13:29Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 13:29Esther Perel?

  In the way that you tend to go, in the direction you tend to see things. And then we'll see what happens if you actually put on a different pair of glasses.

• 13:41Speaker 05

  Okay, that sounds great. I wanna try that.

• 13:43Esther Perel?

  Alright.

• 13:45Speaker 05

  So naturally, I would think, yeah, he's taken that role as my brother in my life. He's awesome, his kids are amazing, his wife's family, she's amazing. But when I think about a brother sister relationship, I do wish he would communicate with me more. I wish he would visit, especially watching my boyfriend's family. They're very close, they visit often, they call, they do all the things. And I don't get that. So sometimes it's hard for me to accept that this is a real brother sister relationship, because I'm imagining something different in my head. But I don't have a good base of what's quote unquote normal.

• 14:29Speaker 05

  So I just try to hang in there. And this is the one relationship I'm trying really hard not to get into my emotions and.

• 14:37Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:37Speaker 05

  And so that's the negative.

• 14:42Esther Perel?

  And have have you ever tried to simply say, would love it if you came to see me?

• 14:50Speaker 05

  In some ways I have, just not in a very direct way.

• 14:56Esther Perel?

  So what does that mean? What does that look like in some ways?

• 15:02Speaker 05

  I tend to put it in a, if it's beneficial for you, if you're in the city, if you need someplace to stay. I've never made it so direct as to say, "Hey, I wish you guys would come see me too and just spend time with me."

• 15:19Esther Perel?

  And do you see him visiting other people? Or is it more, he has a family, he has the kids, and so whoever has an easier time flying to him is the one who does the trip?

• 15:32Speaker 05

  Exactly, that. It's, it's the three kids, it's very busy, all, all the sports. So it's a lot easier if other people visit him. And he did visit with the family a few months ago during their break. And I had hoped he would stay with me. I was a little hurt by that. I had really hoped that they would spend some time with me specifically, but I ended up meeting up with them in the city.

• 16:00Esther Perel?

  What I'm hearing from you is that you say, "I have a very fine-tuned radar for rejection."

• 16:14Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 16:16Esther Perel?

  I am immediately sensing loss,

• 16:25Esther Perel?

  neglect, distance.

• 16:30Esther Perel?

  And I experience the decisions my brother makes about if to travel or where to stay as a statement about how he feels toward me.

• 16:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, him and everybody else.

• 16:46Esther Perel?

  Yeah, and that makes sense.

• 16:51Esther Perel?

  First of all, it makes sense. It's, it's a lifelong training that you had on a daily basis, and that saved you. So before we just say that's not a good thing, I would be very cautious. It has been very good to you, to be vigilant, to be alert, and to speak out.

• 17:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's exhausting sometimes.

• 17:18Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, I get it.

• 17:25Speaker 06

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• 17:42Speaker 03

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• 19:49Esther Perel?

  Now let me ask you. If we were to put different glasses, different tint,

• 19:58Esther Perel?

  and you describe me the same situation.

• 20:02Esther Perel?

  I met a brother.

• 20:06Esther Perel?

  I don't even know how you met him. Meaning, he was another foster child in the same family at the same time as me. Right?

• 20:15Speaker 05

  He was the birth child.

• 20:17Esther Perel?

  He was the birth-

• 20:17Speaker 05

  I was the foster, yeah. I'm the foster, he's the real, is what I say.

• 20:23Esther Perel?

  And how old were we when we met?

• 20:25Speaker 05

  Oh, quite far apart. I was 16 and I think he was 24 or 5. He was really kind to me. And he was at the university at the time. But just whenever he visited and came home, you know, he treated me like his actual sister, even jokingly, you know, making fun, poking fun at me and things like that. It just wanted to incorporate me in the family. Yeah. So if I were to put on a positive pair-

• 20:59Esther Perel?

  No, no. It's not just a negative, but just a different pair.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:05Esther Perel?

  It's not like you're going to just flip, flop. You know? It's just a different lens in which you bring other sensitivities.

• 21:19Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 21:20Esther Perel?

  So that you have a broader range of awareness and sensitivities and ways to experience people's responses to you.

• 21:32Speaker 05

  Okay. My brother, who was much older than me, who really helped me feel comfortable in his family and has maintained incredible, actually, communication with me, even when it was frowned upon because his mother and I don't speak at all.

• 21:58Speaker 05

  He's incorporated me fully into his own family now. And I'm the aunt to his children. They look forward to seeing me. He's helped me feel really accepted in that family for every holiday, every birthday, every vacation, everything I want to attend. He's left the door completely open for me to come and go as I please, even at times when I've pulled away pretty far. He's always left that door open for me to stay part of this family.

• 22:32Speaker 05

  That does feel better.

• 22:35Speaker 05

  Sounds better too.

• 22:36Esther Perel?

  Tell me, how does it feel?

• 22:39Speaker 05

  It feels as if, weirdly enough, like I'm able to get myself like a better bird's eye view of what's happening. Also, for a moment there being able to see his perspective a little bit more, that this was this was his choice too, right? He's and and I'm not so in my internal feelings. I'm I'm seeing a bigger picture in that. That feels nicer.

• 23:11Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 23:12Speaker 05

  Feels more open.

• 23:15Esther Perel?

  And in an interesting way, it's also more connected to him.

• 23:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:22Esther Perel?

  Maybe he didn't stay with you because he didn't want him come with the family with three kids and a and the whole chaos that comes with that.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  Right.

• 23:32Esther Perel?

  But it has nothing to do with how he feels for you.

• 23:37Speaker 05

  Yeah. I guess that that right there is just how I've been taking all my relationships. Ev- every single one of them.

• 23:51Speaker 05

  It's easier to let go of the friendships because I don't consider them necessarily family. But I have felt the same way all around.

• 24:03Esther Perel?

  And when you say the same way?

• 24:07Speaker 05

  Just that immediate wanting to criticize the relationship, how they feel about me, connecting their behavior to what they might, I think they might feel about me, my importance in their lives. And then my immediate, oh, so immediate desire to just end it all. You know, not communicate anymore.

• 24:34Esther Perel?

  Because I learned what?

• 24:38Speaker 05

  I learned that if you go and it's your choice, then it doesn't hurt as bad.

• 24:46Esther Perel?

  And that made a lot of sense in the circumstances of your life then.

• 24:55Esther Perel?

  It's a good survival strategy.

• 25:01Esther Perel?

  And the thing about our survival strategies is that sometimes they saved us at one point. And then they become somewhat of an impediment at the later stage of our lives. Because we interpret all the situations through the same lens. Because we were wounded.

• 25:21Esther Perel?

  Because we learned to survive in this way and it definitely helped us. It's not just a something we imagined.

• 25:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I can't, where I am in life now, I can't imagine having

• 25:38Speaker 05

  having spent too much time feeling hurt. And I, I felt bad and my, my thought was I gotta, I gotta feel better. I gotta go to school. I gotta get my degrees. I have to. I just have to keep going. So I never really, I don't think I really fully addressed it.

• 25:58Esther Perel?

  You didn't address it in this way. But you address it in

• 26:05Esther Perel?

  I'm leaving.

• 26:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:08Esther Perel?

  I'm getting out of here.

• 26:12Esther Perel?

  You don't want me, I want you less.

• 26:16Esther Perel?

  And our survival strategy at one point in our life, sometimes later on, is so tenacious and so powerful and so automatic that it doesn't really invite us to put on another pair of glasses and see, as you say, the world broader. See it not just from the internal place, but actually ground myself in the reality of today,

• 26:48Esther Perel?

  rather than assume it's the same reality. This is how we do it. This is not just you. We are so convinced of that reality that that's the only reality we see, and then we misinterpret.

• 27:02Esther Perel?

  Like you may misinterpret your brother who has been with you

• 27:08Esther Perel?

  regardless of, against his mom, against... I mean, just because he cares deeply about you.

• 27:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:21Esther Perel?

  And the hard thing is this.

• 27:24Esther Perel?

  When we have a survival strategy that really helped us,

• 27:29Esther Perel?

  it's why you were able to continue, go to school, get the degrees, build a whole life,

• 27:37Esther Perel?

  make sure your father is where he needs to be. It's very, very scary to give it up.

• 27:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's almost as if if I do give it up, what do I hold on to?

• 27:52Esther Perel?

  Right. Which is why I just said, all I'm inviting you to do is put on another pair of glasses. And it was very easy for you to do it. It's not like you struggle to describe your brother, his family, who he has been, what he has done, and they can coexist. You don't have to take anything away. You have to add a layer.

• 28:21Esther Perel?

  You have to just allow yourself to ask yourself, if I wear these lenses, you know how when you go to do an eye check, they put you all these, that's the image I have, you know? If I put on a different frame and they block my one eye and they ask me to look and to see the letters, what do I see? And they always say, which one is better? This one or that one? And they go back and forth. It's not like I drop my entire way that I have constructed the world and how I've learned to navigate in this world. But what you say to me is, I have a feeling that I always land in the same place.

• 29:06Esther Perel?

  And at some point, if everyone else is disappointing me, maybe I need to look at me.

• 29:15Esther Perel?

  Cannot be that I'm so good at meeting so many people and sooner or later, I feel let down by them. The constant factor is me. What am I doing? Is there something I bring as well that ultimately backfires?

• 29:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:45Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

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• 31:32Speaker 05

  How do I ensure or how do I help myself not feel so hurt by their occasional behaviour? Friends not showing up when they say they would or not inviting me or cancelling. Things like that really upset me. I'm just trying to figure out in the moment, how do I help myself?

• 31:58Esther Perel?

  Beautiful question. What would happen if you actually did feel it?

• 32:06Esther Perel?

  And you just acknowledged it first and foremost. There's something when somebody cancels on me that just goes above and beyond. Or when someone checks out or when... What are other situations?

• 32:22Speaker 05

  Well, I planned a brunch for six people last weekend and no one came. One person came, but she works with me.

• 32:33Esther Perel?

  Yes, that's upsetting.

• 32:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was crazy. I thought it was nuts. Why accept an invitation that you won't attend?

• 32:42Esther Perel?

  And did they even cancel?

• 32:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, an hour before.

• 32:47Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is unfortunately a reality that is happening all too frequently, not just to you.

• 32:57Esther Perel?

  Where we are losing a sense that there's someone on the other side who actually prepared, went to buy, cooked this, that and the other. And we just kind of, you know,

• 33:08Esther Perel?

  we found a better thing to do.

• 33:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:12Esther Perel?

  And

• 33:14Esther Perel?

  there's a difficult choice because on the one hand, your feeling that this is a shitty thing to do is totally valid.

• 33:24Esther Perel?

  And five out of six, yes, that what the hell is going on? The next piece is the one that you ask is, and now what do I want to do with that?

• 33:35Esther Perel?

  And maybe I just go to one or two of them that I think I can talk to. And I'd say, you know, that didn't feel very nice.

• 33:44Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 33:46Esther Perel?

  I don't know if you had, if you invited people and you went all out and you prepared and this and that. And they called you an hour before. I don't think you would like it either.

• 33:55Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 33:56Esther Perel?

  It's like, we can't just do this to each other. This is not the way friends act. And I say this to you because I love you and I respect you. And I think you're capable of more. So I just needed to tell you that because I know that we both value friendship and honesty.

• 34:17Speaker 05

  That sounds much better than what I did.

• 34:21Esther Perel?

  Tell me what you did.

• 34:23Speaker 05

  Well, it was a group chat for brunch and I deleted the whole group. I just left it. I'm over it.

• 34:32Speaker 05

  Which goes back to that extreme.

• 34:37Esther Perel?

  But then you spite yourself.

• 34:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:40Esther Perel?

  Right? But you can go back. These are people you've known for a long time, right? Some of them. So you go back and you say, I was really hurt.

• 34:49Esther Perel?

  I was upset and I was hurt. I don't think anyone here in this group should ever be in this kind of a situation.

• 34:59Esther Perel?

  We can't become casualties of the times we're living in. This has become a practice that is way too common. And we need to be better with each other. So we.

• 35:11Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 35:14Esther Perel?

  So what I'm saying to you is your disappointment, your hurt, your being even pissed is completely understandable.

• 35:25Esther Perel?

  And in this situation and in others, your feelings are valid. How you then choose to respond, that's the survival strategy. I responded by getting as fast and as far away as I can.

• 35:41Esther Perel?

  Now, that's where I begin to switch. I don't change how I feel. I may sometimes say, I take this very, very deeply. And I know where it comes from, and that's how it is. And I try to talk to myself, and I try to remind myself. And as I just did with my brother, I put on the other lenses. But I do know that that is a real sensitive spot for me. And I need to massage it, and I need to be kind to it.

• 36:15Esther Perel?

  What changes is that I'm not the 80-year-old, or the 14-year-old, or even the 17-year-old. What changes is that I can go to people and just say, "Come on."

• 36:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, that part feels hard. I think I struggle with, "Does anyone love me enough to change their behavior?" That, that one is...

• 36:37Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 05

  I feel like I could easily say, "Probably not." I think people have their own best interests mostly. But that's hard for me to just go talk to someone thinking that it may improve.

• 36:55Esther Perel?

  Well, you will have given the value or the respect to the relationship that it deserves, and then you will know.

• 37:04Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 37:06Esther Perel?

  And by the way, you're not supposed to know this instantly. This is a practice. It's a very hard thing to do. It's called difficult conversations.

• 37:17Esther Perel?

  For a good reason.

• 37:20Esther Perel?

  But I think sometimes the "we" version of it,

• 37:25Esther Perel?

  you know, we can't do this to each other. "I don't want to do this to you, and you don't want to do this to me." I mean, we can't be friends and treat each other like that. We need to be more caring and more careful with each other. It's, it's, it's a shitty thing to do.

• 37:41Esther Perel?

  And you wouldn't want it either. I mean, nobody likes this, you know, so. Everybody had a good reason supposedly?

• 37:51Speaker 05

  Not in my book.

• 37:55Speaker 05

  No, I mean, typical reasons, I'm tired, children, my friends with children are always children excuses. Um, yeah, there weren't any emergencies or anything like that.

• 38:12Esther Perel?

  And you think that their answer would be, you don't understand what it's like? To be, basically, they would say, you should understand, you're asking for too much.

• 38:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, I had an experience with that, a very good friend of mine. Um, when she became a mom, I was very involved in visiting and doing all this stuff to support her. Knowing that we wouldn't get a ton of time together. Well, five years later, I happened to reach out and I said, hey, I've been inviting you to things and you've been turning every single one of my invites down. I miss spending time with you.

• 38:51Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:53Speaker 05

  And the reaction I got was, you don't know what it's like. Um, just totally rejected what I was feeling. And since then, I've been too afraid to talk to friends about my need from them, as, you know, as a friend, adult time together and you know, I'll come and do the, the children things with you, but I, I would like to go to dinner, have a glass of wine, things like that. I, I didn't get the response that I felt like I needed. So I just, uh, I'll respond when she reaches out, but I, and I haven't totally cut it off, but I won't usually go out of my way to do anything with her.

• 39:35Esther Perel?

  And when you look at her life, do you think it's about you? Or do you think that it says more about where she's at?

• 39:45Speaker 05

  Definitely where she's at. I could never understand until I become a parent. But it's, um, I'm sure she's going through a lot.

• 39:53Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:55Esther Perel?

  I mean, a number of the things that you are introducing here are societal. They're not just you.

• 40:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:07Esther Perel?

  You know, it is many times that people who enter into the life stage with young children do not maintain their friendships with people who are not in the exact same life stage. And they meet new people circumstantially because they are in families with young kids.

• 40:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:31Esther Perel?

  That doesn't mean that the loss is unreal. So that's why I wanna, want you to separate between what I feel and how I choose to react to what I feel.

• 40:42Esther Perel?

  I can't get to see my friends who have young kids because they're constantly busy with kids and stuff. And I don't, that's sad, frustrating, a loss, annoying. It's a range of things. And I also understand that it's not like they're going to see other people.

• 41:02Esther Perel?

  It's where they're at. And so it's really upsetting because one loses friends in that transition, often.

• 41:11Esther Perel?

  And I will stay connected with them and I will be the one to go. Because it's like in the workplace, the person who doesn't have kids is supposed to be able to be flexible for all the other people who have the constraints of family lives. I mean, this is a discussion that takes place very often. But at the same time, I also want people who still have space and bandwidth to go out for dinner and have a glass of wine.

• 41:37Speaker 05

  So you're saying it's possible to maintain a connection with my friends that are changing lifestyles or...

• 41:50Speaker 05

  Growing in some other way while also expanding myself to meeting other people without necessarily cutting them off. Okay, I understand.

• 41:59Esther Perel?

  Yes. And I'm also saying that it is often the case that you will be the one having to be more flexible and coming to meet there where they are at and what they're doing. And every once in a while, you will meet one who has children but who loves to have a friend who still doesn't have kids so she can go out with you and go do whatever you enjoy doing together.

• 42:19Speaker 05

  I do, she lives in Switzerland.

• 42:25Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 42:27Esther Perel?

  So that person exists too, you see?

• 42:29Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 42:30Esther Perel?

  There is the one who says, ah, at least I have one friend who I can go and I don't have to talk about the kids with. I can talk about it, you know, so you have, you have both and you also expand your circle. You say, this, this is a moment when often people become more distant and more wrapped into their family realities and enveloped there and therefore I go and I meet new people. That's something I know to do very well.

• 43:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, for sure.

• 43:02Esther Perel?

  But the peace of the disappointment, that is not because they have kids. You have had that peace for a while, right?

• 43:11Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 43:12Esther Perel?

  That has existed regardless of the particular circumstances and life stage that people are in.

• 43:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to find some reason so that it decreases the hurt a little bit. Um, and then, and then that I'm, I'm sure I'm finding some truths of their circumstances.

• 43:31Esther Perel?

  And they probably existed all along.

• 43:34Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 43:37Esther Perel?

  And if that frame helps you to say, I need to put on my other glasses, see what I see.

• 43:45Esther Perel?

  If I put on my vision glasses, my prescription glasses.

• 43:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:49Esther Perel?

  What do I see with my prescription glasses? What do I see when I don't have them on? And the two realities interact with each other. So that I don't only live in one groove and I always sniff the rejection. Sniff the, I'm not loved enough, I'm not lovable enough. Why would I even go say something? If I bring it up, I'll give them the opportunity to tell me.

• 44:20Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 44:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:24Esther Perel?

  Yes to what?

• 44:25Speaker 05

  Yes, giving, giving someone a. Giving someone an opportunity to reject me is not something I'm into.

• 44:36Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 44:40Speaker 05

  But there doesn't, there doesn't always have to be rejection. I know, I know there are a lot of people that really care about me.

• 44:50Esther Perel?

  Tell me more about them.

• 44:53Speaker 05

  Um, the exact same people that are disappointing me.

• 45:00Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah, yeah. Friends, family, even, even with my mom, that, that.

• 45:12Speaker 05

  I, I harbored a lot of resentment at some point of, why would you let your little girl go live in a place you've never been? You don't know about. But I've, I've learned to let that go.

• 45:26Esther Perel?

  How did she answer that?

• 45:29Speaker 05

  Um, I, I haven't asked her. That's something that maybe we'll do when I visit. But I do know, you know, in the African culture, where I'm from, you put a lot of hopes and dreams in your children. And you send them far away sometimes, hoping that their lives could be better and hoping that maybe you'll mean your life could be better too. I'm not angry at her for that anymore.

• 45:59Esther Perel?

  So this is a beautiful example of a different pair of lenses.

• 46:06Esther Perel?

  Right? As a kid, when you were in the midst of pain and suffering, you thought, "How could my mom send me to live like this? What was she thinking? Why did she abandon me? Does she even care what I'm going through?" And more. And then over time, what has allowed you to not be angry anymore is you began to say, "From where she comes, she probably thought, "I'm gonna give her the opportunity of living in America. She's gonna get a better education. She's gonna get more opportunities than me." And these two realities began to blend with each other.

• 46:51Esther Perel?

  Your experience and her experience.

• 46:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 46:57Esther Perel?

  Tell me more.

• 46:58Speaker 05

  Took thirty years.

• 47:02Speaker 05

  I've had multiple opportunities to buy plane tickets to go visit. And I would always find a way to back out of it. And until I finally got to this point where I could potentially see what she experienced. I can't imagine that it's easy to let your firstborn leave.

• 47:24Speaker 05

  And if you're wanting something better for them, you might put them on a plane, on a boat. Many people have done that.

• 47:33Esther Perel?

  Yes. What made you change your mind this time?

• 47:42Speaker 05

  I think just getting older and thinking about children myself.

• 47:47Speaker 05

  Also, just understanding more the concept of sacrifice. And knowing that it would be a huge regret if I couldn't get myself to go see her. And she were to pass away or something. So just really trying to understand.

• 48:07Speaker 05

  Understand her more. And it's crazy because I haven't talked to her about it at all. It's just just trying to understand if I were a mom and I were in that situation, what would I do?

• 48:19Esther Perel?

  How old was she when she had you?

• 48:21Speaker 05

  I think fifteen.

• 48:24Esther Perel?

  And so she was all in all twenty-three when she gave up her precious daughter.

• 48:33Speaker 05

  Yeah. And also, just I've reached out, we we chat a little bit here and there. And she has never said anything that would make me wanna reject her. She's always just said, I wanna see you, I would do anything to see you. And hearing that over and over and over again, um, gave me the reassurance that, okay, she does love me.

• 49:01Esther Perel?

  And she sent me away because she loved me.

• 49:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:06Esther Perel?

  Which is a real mind fuck.

• 49:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah, I can't even imagine what she went through.

• 49:18Speaker 05

  Being left with a newborn and then having to send your eight-year-old away.

• 49:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:29Esther Perel?

  And what happens to you when you begin to see your story through her lens?

• 49:39Speaker 05

  I feel less abandoned.

• 49:42Speaker 05

  I feel a little sad that so much time has passed.

• 49:47Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm. Do you dare to say I feel loved?

• 49:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 49:54Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 49:55Esther Perel?

  Good.

• 49:59Esther Perel?

  Can you say it?

• 50:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, I feel I feel like my mom loves me.

• 50:07Speaker 05

  So I've been able to make those sacrifices. She really loved me.

• 50:16Esther Perel?

  You're gonna go next month, right?

• 50:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:19Esther Perel?

  If you remember, I would love to know how this trip is going for you. How transformative it will be for you.

• 50:27Speaker 05

  Oh, gosh.

• 50:29Esther Perel?

  How it's going to put so many pieces in place. How proud she will be of you.

• 50:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:39Esther Perel?

  Because you're a real fighter.

• 50:42Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 50:43Esther Perel?

  The fact that at eight years old you could go and stand up for yourself when you were all alone in this country is remarkable. While you sometimes are very sensitive to being abandoned by others, you have been there for yourself

• 51:03Esther Perel?

  in remarkable ways. And I'm humbled

• 51:08Esther Perel?

  in this conversation with you.

• 51:12Speaker 05

  Thank you, Esther.

• 51:31Speaker 06

  This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire and could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?

• 52:15Speaker 06

  Are Astaire Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  I'm Josh Mucchio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see. They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off. We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 53:02Speaker 04

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand. What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  And dairy? I never imagined my life journey would be milk. Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 53:26Speaker 07

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