Stuck Between My Daughter and My Husband

A mother comes to Esther for help dealing with the escalating conflicts between her husband and their teenage daughter. She's tired of being caught in the middle and blamed by both sides. Together, they explore the family dynamics and the need for both parents to take responsibility for the relational space they share. Topic - Relationships with Family & Friends Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  I have been married to my husband for 20 years and we have two daughters, the younger of which is now 16 years old. And she and her father don't get along. They don't respect each other. I think they love each other, but they don't understand each other and they don't seem to be working towards understanding each other. I get stuck in these situations where the two of them are angry with each other, often at the dinner table, and fighting. And I don't know how to help. And I'm hoping that you can help me find some words

• 0:42Speaker 00

  or some methods or some way to communicate with them. When I try to talk to them about this, they both get angry with me and they don't seem to want to repair the situation. And I feel very stuck in the middle. And I'm hoping you can help me.

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• 1:52Speaker 02

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• 2:49Speaker 00

  Yes, that's about right.

• 2:54Esther Perel?

  And when they both get angry with you, that's a moment when they align together?

• 2:59Speaker 00

  No.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  No. Unfortunately.

• 3:05Esther Perel?

  I was too optimistic on my part.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  I wish.

• 3:11Esther Perel?

  Give me, if you can, a frequent example, because I don't assume that every time it's different. It's probably much of the same over and over.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  It seems like there are two things that happen over and over again, two different things, depending on which one of them is the instigator of the conversation. And usually it's because one or the other of them is already in a bad mood. And we come together from our day at the dinner table. And one scenario is that my husband has been reading online about politics or stewing about something at work, and he comes in already a little bit angry. And he finds something that he's unhappy about with our daughter. Her room isn't clean. She didn't do the dishes when she said she would.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  Her grades aren't good, et cetera, et cetera. And he will just start sort of laying into her about that.

• 4:15Speaker 00

  First, not in a mean way, but just pointing it out. And then she gets very defensive and then the two of them get angry with each other. So that's one scenario.

• 4:26Esther Perel?

  And then, no, no, because you're part of that scenario too. And then I

• 4:31Speaker 00

  I find that I have sort of a freeze response where I sit and watch it escalate. And if I try to step in, it's usually in the defense of one or the other, and I have a really hard time choosing how to do that because I feel that my husband isn't being fair to my daughter. Yet he has a point about, you know, that she hasn't cleaned her room or she hasn't done the dishes. And if I come in defense of my daughter, it immediately turns to comments about my parenting or my not letting him parent. And eventually he will say, I can't win and he'll just leave the table.

• 5:17Speaker 00

  So, yeah, I'm just looking for words or

• 5:20Esther Perel?

  That's one. And what's the second one?

• 5:23Speaker 00

  Um. The second scenario will be that my daughter will have had a bad day and be sensitive about something. And my husband is someone who likes to tell stories and push boundaries. And he will make a comment that offends her.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  And she will get over the top, out of all proportion angry with him and say that he's else she'll say something caustic like, you're racist or you're, you know, you don't understand anything or, you know, you always do this to me. And then she'll start yelling and screaming at him and he will be greatly offended and usually leave or defend himself and then leave.

• 6:12Esther Perel?

  And do you ever talk about yourself? Do you have a day? Do you have a mood? Are you an active protagonist in this triangle? Besides trying to be a peacemaker?

• 6:27Speaker 00

  There are plenty of times that we have regular conversations at the table when everyone is in a good mood and everyone is willing to

• 6:39Speaker 00

  I guess, I guess my role when things are not going well is to try to change the subject. Or say, or say something calming or give an anecdote about my day. Um, usually too late when nobody wants to hear it. Because they're already angry.

• 6:57Esther Perel?

  They're already in there.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:00Esther Perel?

  And when you talk with each of them alone, is it just a blame fest, each one blaming the other for being impossible? Or is there any accountability whatsoever that each one can take?

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Um, I find when I talk to my daughter, she will take accountability, but there's always a but. He's the adult, he should, he's my father. He should understand this, he should, you know, so she will say, yes, I understand that was uncalled for, but you, you know, there's always a but. But you have to admit that he was out of line, or but you have to, you know, this or that, or but you should be defending me because you're my mother and you aren't. And then from my husband, he'll go away and think about it. And there was a time when he'd then come back and have a conversation with my daughter and they would talk it out and things would be okay in the end.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  And a couple of years ago, that ended when she turned fourteen, thirteen or fourteen. Um, he stopped trying and she doesn't go to him. So when I go and try to talk about it, often it will turn to comments on my parenting, you're too easy on her, you always take her side, you know, you, we should be a team, things like that.

• 8:23Esther Perel?

  Okay. So tell me, just for me to get a bit more context, what kind of family environment did you grow up in?

• 8:35Esther Perel?

  And what experience do you have with bickering and escalations and high reactivity at the dinner table?

• 8:44Esther Perel?

  And then the same question will apply to him. Your daughters, I know, because.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  They're living it.

• 8:50Esther Perel?

  That they're okay. But yeah, what was it like in each of your own homes growing up? Because some of this we have learned. We have actually watched other people do. We have had other people do to us. We have had people do to each other. And there is the manifest rules of how you argue, how you fight, how low you go, how off-topic you can be, how little accountability you take. And then there is also the underlying issues of loyalty, betrayal,

• 9:30Esther Perel?

  lack of support, rejection, the dynamics that lay underneath this. You should be with me. You, you know, everybody is actually wanting you to be their fauner.

• 9:45Esther Perel?

  Fawn for me, please me. So what's been your experience and what do you know about his? And obviously, you didn't have it with your other child. So you also know that this is a triangle. It's contextual. It doesn't say specific things about who you are or who he is or who she is. Because this is a dynamic. This is relationally created by people. But they can do other things because they have had other relationships with their other children. That's always very good to know.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Right, that's true. So my husband and I come from very different family situations. I grew up in the Midwest with a family that did not fight in front of each other. If we had a disagreement, I mean, we, of, of course, we did occasionally. But often disagreements would happen one-on-one behind a closed door. So if my parents had an issue with something that was going on, they would go into their room and talk about it and then come out with a decision. I feel like I had a fairly.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Calm, happy upbringing. When I think about it, I feel like I was loved and that my they were also very academic. So, everything was intellectualized in my household. And it wasn't played out in emotion as much. My husband, uh, his mother was probably undiagnosed bipolar and an alcoholic. And, uh, they had a lot of sort of turmoil in their family growing up. And I think he had a I think maybe he, there were a lot higher emotions on a daily basis at his house than there were at mine. For sure.

• 11:40Esther Perel?

  Of the whole range or conflictual emotions?

• 11:44Speaker 00

  I think the whole range. I think he had a difficult teenage time. You know, he didn't get along with his parents for a time when he was a teenager. His mother passed away recently and she was capable of huge love and huge everything was over the top with her and but also, you know, um, a lot of the other side of that coin too.

• 12:08Esther Perel?

  Was his rebelliousness towards his parents as a teenager somewhat similar to that of your daughter?

• 12:18Speaker 00

  Well, not in the way that it looks. I think the two of them are very similar personality wise. He reacted to the chaos in his household by staying away from home a lot. He got a job early on so that he had his own money. He was in some ways taking care of his family at that age and kind of doing what he wanted. And, um,

• 12:45Speaker 00

  my daughter just has chosen very different

• 12:49Speaker 00

  Ways to express herself and hobbies and she's my first. Maybe this is typical, maybe it's not, but my older daughter sort of has similar interests to my husband and I. And my younger daughter has gone as far away from things that we understand as possible. She, um, we both work with our hands and, uh, love to camp and be outdoors. She, um, wants to become a nail tech and she does acrylic nails for her friends. And she's very rooted in the city we live in and has a big group of friends. And then she's just chosen things that, um, it's been a stretch for me to understand

• 13:33Speaker 00

  why she's chosen the things she has, but she's amazing and brilliant.

• 13:38Esther Perel?

  Are you curious about?

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Yes, always, yeah.

• 13:41Esther Perel?

  More curious than reactive?

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:44Esther Perel?

  By the way, nails and acrylic is hands, you know?

• 13:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, right. Yes.

• 13:52Esther Perel?

  It is work with the hands.

• 13:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is. It's still a trade that way.

• 13:57Esther Perel?

  Different from dirt and camping and knots, but it is no less handy.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 14:03Esther Perel?

  And how much are they able to be reflective about what happens? I notice that this is something that happens between us. Whenever he does this, I do that. Whenever she does this, I do that. What really gets to me is I understand that this is my challenge. Is there any reflective ability? Or is it all pure reaction?

• 14:32Speaker 00

  Uh, in the moment, it's pure reaction and I think there is a little bit of reflection. I think my husband thinks about it, but I don't get to hear what he's thinking about it usually.

• 14:44Esther Perel?

  And you want help for you? Or you think that you could be even more effective with them? And you want actually to magically make these two people put a stop to their spat?

• 14:59Speaker 00

  I want your magic stare.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  I, I guess I'm unhappy with my own reaction in the moment because I feel like they both walk away feeling like I've betrayed them.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  And it would be amazing if they were to get along better, or if there was something I could do when I saw the argument coming, or say, you know, that could diffuse that.

• 15:33Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 15:49Speaker 02

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• 17:38Esther Perel?

  I have a bunch of thoughts that come, but I do wanna ask me, has any of you ever said, "Let's go see a family therapist"?

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 17:48Esther Perel?

  And?

• 17:50Esther Perel?

  So... Just so I know how much my field has helped you or not.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I'm worried because we're opening a whole new conversation. But, so my daughter was really sick. She's better now, but for the last few years, she was anorexic and went through treatment programs. And we, basically, I re-fed her at home, and she's doing much better now. But as part of that process, she saw a therapist, I saw a therapist, and there were meetings that we were supposed to all do together. And my husband does not like therapy, and my daughter does not like therapy. And it was difficult to get us all into a room together. And then it often sort of would blow up in the room, and they would leave feeling unsafe.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  So it means my husband is not open to family therapy.

• 18:43Esther Perel?

  But it was part of the treatment programs.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  At first, it was part of the treatment programs, and then we had hired somebody to help us outside of the program as well.

• 18:54Esther Perel?

  And was it ever helpful? Was there anything you would say, "This thing, we didn't pursue it, or we didn't stick to it, but it actually was a very good idea"?

• 19:08Speaker 00

  I don't think we ever got far enough that we had a plan to an action. I felt like it was helpful to talk about the things openly, even when it was not in the healthiest way. And so I felt like it was helpful, but I don't think either of the other two of them felt that way.

• 19:30Esther Perel?

  And may I ask why you continue to have dinner, the three of you together?

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Uh, it is sort of a core value of mine and I'm, I live in hope, you know, that um just in the way that my daughter has gotten better from her illness. I was hoping that their relationship would heal. I know that those things don't necessarily happen just on their own, but I was hoping just by being together every day, in whatever way we can be there, there's more of a chance that everybody's gonna get along.

• 20:04Esther Perel?

  And is that proving right?

• 20:07Speaker 00

  I think very slowly it may be. But when they, so it's the, the anger comes less frequently. But when it happens, it feels just as intense, like that whatever's underneath the surface, it's still just definitely hasn't healed. I just feel like they're learning, maybe it's that my daughter's getting older or, you know, that I feel like they're learning to be in a room together without fighting.

• 20:32Esther Perel?

  Who do you think has the most latitude and flexibility for change?

• 20:38Speaker 00

  Oh, they're so similar.

• 20:41Esther Perel?

  I know. Because this kind of dynamic that you describe, escalations like that are always symmetric. When you have two people who do fight, fight, they are typically similar. If you have one fight and one flight, you get the difference. If you had two flight, it's similar. So when you have two escalating people who go at each other, but it is not uncommon to just say they're so similar. But I still will ask, which one has, in your mind, more flexibility? Even if it's a three percent.

• 21:18Speaker 00

  I think my daughter has more flexibility, but there's part of me that feels like she's the kid, like she shouldn't have to be the one to.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  Heal the problem. Does that make sense?

• 21:33Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but that's because you think the problem is him. Whereas the the relationship is not him or her, the relationship is the space in between. And that space in between, as my friend and colleague Hedy Schleifer says, is currently polluted. And so the relationship is that space. And each person is responsible to tend to that space so that it doesn't get polluted.

• 22:02Speaker 00

  That makes sense.

• 22:03Esther Perel?

  And so when you are more flexible, it's not because you should be dealing with the problem and the problem is the father. It's that you have what we call enlightened self-interest. It's in her interest to have this space not be so polluted, to have these arguments, these paths, not be so in her belly to the point where she can't put anything else in because it takes up all the space.

• 22:35Esther Perel?

  That's just one metaphor. This is not what anorexia is, but this is one dynamic that is happening. So if I said to her,

• 22:46Esther Perel?

  are you curious about certain things you could potentially do that could change the dynamic between you and your dad? What would she say?

• 22:57Speaker 00

  I think she'd be open to that.

• 22:59Esther Perel?

  Okay. And then if I said, I understand you're very creative. You're doing nails and you're a painter, basically. You're a painter on people's hands. And you adorn people's bodies. And that is very meticulous and very fine. It's fine motor, so you have precision. And that precision is not just in your hands, that precision is part of the personality that you have. And from that place, I would like to suggest to you certain things that are rather counterintuitive,

• 23:42Esther Perel?

  but they have the power to turn the whole dynamic around. Because a dance between two people is a bunch of successive moves. If you change one move, all the others must adapt.

• 23:59Esther Perel?

  That's really how intricately interwoven pieces of an escalation are. If there's one thing you don't do that you typically do or say, it creates a space for a whole different thing.

• 24:15Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 24:18Esther Perel?

  But the same thing will apply to you. You're asking, actually, for me to help you do what you've already been doing, which you know doesn't really work. And you want to do a better job at what doesn't work.

• 24:34Speaker 00

  So I'm asking the wrong question.

• 24:36Esther Perel?

  You know. No, it's not the wrong question. It's that it's very difficult for us to give up. When something doesn't work, we don't instantly say, "I need to try something else." We first say, "I need to try harder."

• 24:54Esther Perel?

  We all have, for some reason, we all often are inclined to that. And we're gonna try harder at the very thing that we already know isn't working.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 25:03Esther Perel?

  So I have to resist the temptation of doing that with you. You know, there's a lot of different situations. First of all is to say, you know, after a day that is very bad, the next day you just say, "I think we're better off today not eating together." Why would we do that? I'll eat half an hour with you, and then I'll eat an half an hour with the other. And I think we'll all have a nice time.

• 25:27Esther Perel?

  And then see what happens.

• 25:29Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 25:30Esther Perel?

  See if they say, "Great idea." Or if they say, "No, no, no, no, we must be at the table together." And then you say, "Well, then you should have dinner together, because I'm gonna go and have dinner with a friend."

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:40Esther Perel?

  This is a bad show. It's a bad TV program, and I'm not interested.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:47Esther Perel?

  You know, it's like, I am not interested. I don't see why I should be subjected to this on a regular basis. Not angry, just simply do your thing, but don't involve me.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:02Esther Perel?

  Rather than putting yourself at the heart of the matter and thinking that you're the only one who can stop this madness.

• 26:10Esther Perel?

  Step out of it.

• 26:14Esther Perel?

  See what happens. I listen, we just, you're gonna just collect information.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:20Esther Perel?

  I'm not saying this is the answer to anything, but it will, you, you, you have to in some way, find ten new moves.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:29Esther Perel?

  See, you're the only one who's here, so I'm gonna talk about your moves. Maybe at some point you put good music. You just, you say, I think we should all listen to music, soothing the nervous system.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:43Esther Perel?

  It's food for the soul. Let's listen to music. What would you like to listen to? What would you like to listen to? Each of us pick a piece of music. We should be better off at listening than at speaking, because speaking, we don't do a great job. But I think what this house could really learn is a different quality of listening. We could listen to poetry, we could listen, I wouldn't suggest listening to politics, since that puts him in a bad mood, or I wouldn't suggest listening necessarily to spoken word, unless it's artistic spoken word. That's another one. But break, break the, the, the configuration, shuffle. Um, this is rigid, this is predictable, this is narrow, and everybody seems to be falling into the trap every time.

• 27:30Esther Perel?

  I mean, one could write the script. He says this, she says that, that makes him do this, that makes her do that. Then he walks away, and she's all, look at this, you can't even talk to him, look at what he does. He can't handle anything. I mean, it's, it's, and by the way, it's not original. That script goes in many, many homes.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 27:51Esther Perel?

  And instead of saying, you know, what can I do to make you people love each other? You just say, you won't be the first dad and daughter who don't get along in your adolescence. In fact, you know that very well, you had the same relationship with your parents. And then you can joke with her, and you can say, you know, by the time his mother died, she was capable of deep love.

• 28:10Esther Perel?

  I mean, you may have to wait fifteen years. Which means you bring humor into this. Because you get scared.

• 28:20Esther Perel?

  You get really, really scared and you think, I have to rescue these people from their shadow.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  Maybe that's not true.

• 28:28Esther Perel?

  I don't know enough to make a declaration about this. It's just my... But sometimes I think it's worth checking out.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 28:35Esther Perel?

  But I know that when we have that fear, or that maybe she will plunge again into the anorexia, or that she will have recidivism, or, you know, that... So you're holding this very fragile equilibrium, making sure that nothing bad happens. And it actually doesn't really rest on you.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  Sounds good. I don't want it to rest on me.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  But it does feel like that.

• 29:03Esther Perel?

  Your body tells me, I carry this. You know, it's like they hurl all kinds of things at each other and I'm the only one who realizes what it just said.

• 29:15Esther Perel?

  Now, that you can say too.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:17Esther Perel?

  You're saying horrible stuff at each other and you punch each other as if you were cardboard.

• 29:25Esther Perel?

  And while you are not feeling anything because you're busy being angry, I feel every word hitting my belly and I feel everything punching my gut. Because I'm actually the one experiencing what you're doing. You know, if it was physical, somebody would say, aye, that hurts. But because it's words,

• 29:46Esther Perel?

  one doesn't even notice it. One just says, let me punch you back. The next thing one day, if you really need to go and amputate a little bit, is you videotape them. You don't say a word. You get up, you take your phone and you just tape them.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  They would hate that.

• 30:05Esther Perel?

  They would hate that, but something... There would be somebody saying, I'm your witness.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:10Esther Perel?

  I just want you to see what this looks like. And then you send it to them alone separately and you just say, I thought you may want to know what this is like.

• 30:21Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 30:24Esther Perel?

  They may not like it, but it may be effective.

• 30:29Esther Perel?

  You don't have to say anything. You just film it. And then you go to the side and you just film it. And then you send it to them and then you just say, you know, sometimes we don't really see ourselves from the outside in. This is what this looks like.

• 30:53Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

• 31:05Speaker 05

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• 32:33Esther Perel?

  What happens when your other daughter enters the picture?

• 32:37Speaker 00

  Oh, so she is a mediator. She has always, she's taken that role.

• 32:47Esther Perel?

  She took it to the next level.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I don't mean professionally. I just mean that, like, she takes on that role very nicely. And when she left for college, there was part of me that was like, I am worried that this family is gonna fall apart when she's not here. And I realize that that's a horrible thing to think, because all of that weight of those feelings are on my older child. She shouldn't have to play that role, you know, and take on that responsibility.

• 33:20Esther Perel?

  And is she the mediator between her sister and her dad? Or is she actually the mediator between her mom and her dad?

• 33:29Speaker 00

  Between her sister and her dad, I would say.

• 33:32Esther Perel?

  That is the official picture, I know that. But how much is there actually? How much does your younger daughter actually express things that you don't say, but do think?

• 33:43Speaker 00

  A lot, for sure, yes.

• 33:45Esther Perel?

  So the mediation is actually... I mean, what you're saying is that your daughters are in between your relationship between you and him?

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, yeah, that's true.

• 33:57Esther Perel?

  Which, if you wanted that to shift, you go to him and you say, "Our daughters have spent a lot of time being between you and I." That's the bold move.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's what I have to do.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  That feels real.

• 34:16Esther Perel?

  Tell me more.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  I think my husband and I have, um, we've sort of allowed our relationship to become...

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Two separate relationships that happen to touch. We get along really well.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  And he is very independent and likes to do his own thing. And I'm independent and like to do my own thing. And so there are there are large periods of time where he comes home from work, he goes out to the shop. You know, his man cave in the back. And I sort of take care of things in the house and then we touch at dinnertime and then we don't really talk. He goes to bed before I do or vice versa. And we just don't get deep about things anymore. It's almost like we have a friendship and we live together. You know, we also have a good sexual relationship, but that's not the same as emotionally connecting. The way we don't.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  You know, so all of those emotions, you're making me feel like maybe the truth of it is that all of those emotions are then played out through our kids instead of in front of each other.

• 35:31Esther Perel?

  Yes, that is what I am saying, yes.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  I don't like that.

• 35:37Esther Perel?

  And that you actually connect through them, even if it's negative. And that you come close when you argue about them. And that they have a job, which is to make sure to bring attention on to them. So that you don't have to have the so it deflects it from the two of you, but at the same time, it brings you to at least discuss something that you jointly share. And it is one of the few things at this moment that you jointly share. So what would happen, you think, if you

• 36:08Esther Perel?

  put all of this on paper to him, on paper or in a letter, and you just said, I've been thinking.

• 36:16Esther Perel?

  And you seem to be a thinking group of people. And he's thoughtful as well. And what would happen if you say, here's what I imagine is a different reading of what's been going on here.

• 36:34Esther Perel?

  And if we really wanna help our kids, it's you and I who need to come back together.

• 36:41Speaker 00

  I like that. I can do that.

• 36:45Esther Perel?

  Do you think he would be receptive too?

• 36:47Speaker 00

  I do. I think that would be a good way to approach it. It's actually been a way that we have done things in the past when we, you know, feel very emotional about something or there's a complicated problem between us. One of us will write it down and send it.

• 37:06Esther Perel?

  Beautiful. And then potentially even go and camp together and spend a few days alone and make it a deal that you don't talk about her, that you will find other ways to connect with each other that don't involve talking about her. And she's the glue.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think that's a good idea.

• 37:27Esther Perel?

  And she may resist not being the glue. Just so you know, kids get used to being the glue. And so they sometimes potentially on purpose put themselves in the center because they don't really trust that their parents will find a way to each other if they don't bring them there. So you may need to reassure her that you can find your way to each other and she can go and be an adolescent.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  That's very insightful. I hadn't thought about it that way before. I like it.

• 37:58Esther Perel?

  And then if your daughter stepped out of the middle, what takes its place?

• 38:07Esther Perel?

  What would happen, for example, if you went to the shop?

• 38:12Esther Perel?

  When he's in the shop? And just sat there and whatever. What if you had dinner with her first and then you went and brought dinner in his shop? And you just ate a picnic together in the shop? I mean, it's about changing the social, the emotional, and the physical configurations. It's not in that order, but it involves all levels. Because you've made a beautiful distinction. We can be very sexual and we are intimate there, but there is a level of connection between the two of you, a level of emotional threading that is, kind of has leaked out of the relationship.

• 38:53Esther Perel?

  And we are brought together in our worry or our arguments with our daughter.

• 39:01Esther Perel?

  If I asked your older daughter, why did she become a mediator, what would she say? Because her sister wasn't always a teenager, so this goes back longer.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, um, I don't know if I can answer that honestly. I mean, I can give you my opinion about what I see.

• 39:19Esther Perel?

  That's all we have.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  But I think that my husband has been struggling for a while and unhappy. And I think, I'm trying to reframe it now with the information that you've given me. But I think I tended to get annoyed with him. Because it looked to me like a lot of him centering himself. And I was struggling to take care of my younger daughter or struggling with other things. And so I think she felt like she needed to step in and take care of him and keep him as part of the family. You know, make sure he felt like somebody understood him.

• 40:00Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, and so they have a strong alliance together?

• 40:04Speaker 00

  Um, they do, they do, yeah, I would say that.

• 40:09Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 40:11Esther Perel?

  So she would lift him up so that he wouldn't get too down, too depressed, too passive?

• 40:22Speaker 00

  I think so, in small ways, you know. Um, but I think that that's sort of what she would do. She was also trying to keep the peace, you know, when we were all together. So she would make sure that he had someone listening to him when, uh, when maybe the other two of us were rolling our eyes or just not engaged.

• 40:47Esther Perel?

  So you and your young one have an alliance, except that she says the things that you think but don't say.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  And, and worse. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that the things that she says necessarily represent me, but she definitely is not afraid to call him out in ways that I don't think are necessary, but maybe they are necessary and she's doing it for me. I don't know.

• 41:17Esther Perel?

  So, if I hear what you say is, instead of trying to be the conciliatory, it may be that they need to take on me that which is mine,

• 41:31Esther Perel?

  so that it doesn't filter onto her.

• 41:36Esther Perel?

  Because part of why her intensity is so high is because she's expressing both her feelings and mine. She's doing the job of two.

• 41:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think I've been trying to keep the peace at all costs and it's been causing the opposite and

• 41:54Esther Perel?

  No, you don't keep any peace at all. Every time somebody talks to you about how they feel, you're trying to defend the other.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:02Esther Perel?

  So, that doesn't, tha- that's a triangulation.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  Doesn't work.

• 42:05Esther Perel?

  No. I say I'm so angry at them and you say, but you need to understand them. I need you to understand why I'm angry at them. And I, you can understand them where they're angry at me, but if every time you take the position of the absent third,

• 42:20Esther Perel?

  you're fostering the split.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:24Esther Perel?

  And especially with her, she will then end up expressing the spoken and unspoken intensity of both people's feelings, yours and hers.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  So I need to be more present with my

• 42:39Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  peace of the conversation.

• 42:41Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:42Esther Perel?

  I mean, if you roll your eyes, you have more than just that.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 42:46Esther Perel?

  Your older daughter is able to be compassionate with him and you're paranoid.

• 42:51Speaker 00

  Sometimes, yes.

• 42:53Esther Perel?

  Yes, of course, not always. And there is, there's more to the story than just this. We're, we're doing a little

• 42:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:59Esther Perel?

  you know, micro, microsurgery here, but it's all triangular, is what I'm saying is, and there is what people are picking up.

• 43:10Esther Perel?

  On their feelings, but also on the unspoken and disavowed feelings of the other, which they then bring into their own psyche.

• 43:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:21Esther Perel?

  And in the end, each of the three of you feels very alone. Your husband feels alone because he feels that all of them, except for his older daughter, but the other two are in collusion,

• 43:38Esther Perel?

  that you don't support him, that you always defend her. She knows that you always defend him, but on some level, she knows that she is also speaking for you. The older one wonders, can I have a life away from the family? Because she, like you, worries that they're going to fall apart without my skillful mediation. And you think you're trying to make these people be nicer with each other and have more grace,

• 44:06Esther Perel?

  when in fact, they are each thinking that it's the other person who is doing it all to them.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:17Esther Perel?

  So,

• 44:20Esther Perel?

  how do you start extricating?

• 44:24Speaker 00

  I think writing the letter that you suggested. I'm excited about that idea. We already do some creative movement around dinnertime, but I think just reframing in my mind that it's not my job to make the two of them be friends and to refine that connection with my husband so that we can model for my daughter, but also for ourselves, have that emotional connection and maybe we'll be more on the same page anyway about a lot of these things that become an issue.

• 45:07Esther Perel?

  Is that a good place to start?

• 45:10Speaker 00

  I think so.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  I think so. Thank you for helping me untangle all of this.

• 45:32Esther Perel?

  This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Astaire Parel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

• 46:14Esther Perel?

  And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Astaire Parel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jackson.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 47:16Speaker 05

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