Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel Do You Love Me for Me or For What I Do for You? About this episode "Am I too much?" is a consistent frame for a relationship that so many people come to Esther with. This week, a Southern preacher who has made a career out of tending to the needs of others wonders if she's too much or not enough in her romantic relationships. Esther guides her to explore her sense of self-worth and ask for what she needs.
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected] .
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 I've been married twice. Once to a woman for over a decade, and we co-parent. Our now teenage daughter and we live next door to each other. My second marriage was to a man, but that marriage also ended in divorce just after four years. After my second marriage ended, I made sense out of what first felt like a failure. I think by intellectualizing marriage and monogamy as some kind of simply unnatural state and marriage as a social construct that benefits society by increasing generational wealth. Yeah, I know. I began to rationalize my way out of any desire for a long-term partnership.
0:47 Speaker 00 But then one night, I went out dancing all alone and quite happily so. And I met another person there, also alone, quite happily so. And we danced and talked all evening. That was two years ago, and we have been friends, lovers, companions in so many amazing ways since. For the first year of our friendship, we dated other people. Now, for the last nine months or so, I have not dated anyone else but him. So here we are, two people committed to non-monogamy and yet, at least for now, monogamous. We both intellectualize a lot
1:29 Speaker 00 and are rather public people in our communities. I'm a clergy person in a Christian church, so you can imagine that the expectations of me and my relationship status, especially as a female clergy person in the southern U.S., are quite big. And so we keep our relationship really private. It feels safe there, and yet, part of me is wondering what I'm so fearful of. Am I missing out on some benefit of monogamy or at least a relationship that's not so separate from the rest of my life? And I'm deeply curious if I have abandoned, on some level, my wants and desires out of fear.
2:24 Speaker 01 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
3:07 Speaker 02 I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands, deep tech that changes the weather. Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand. We've got hardware that helps blind people see and dairy.
3:33 Speaker 01 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
3:36 Speaker 02 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
3:58 Esther Perel? Hello.
3:59 Speaker 00 Hi.
4:01 Esther Perel? Are these all questions? Or are some of these statements with a question mark?
4:08 Speaker 00 Yes. I would say that my curiosity, when it's free and open, is like, I wonder what will happen next. And then when I am afraid or I'm feeling like there's some sort of scarcity or urgency, I become judgmental and my question is more like, I wonder what will happen next? And so sometimes those statements are statements and sometimes they're questions.
4:40 Esther Perel? Right. So.
4:43 Esther Perel? I was wondering, why now? Why did you reach out to me now? Because the questions are not new,
4:53 Esther Perel? or the statements. And what led you to us here today?
5:01 Speaker 00 I think it's an intersection of what you're exploring in your podcast and what I'm exploring in my life. And I was like, oh,
5:13 Speaker 00 I wonder if there is a part of what I'm curious about that you could help with. To be honest, it's... That's part of it.
5:27 Esther Perel? And that part is? If you had to describe it?
5:32 Speaker 00 The part of me that gets fearful is wondering if I'm missing something. Am I ignoring a part of myself? What I want, what I need? That's a big part of it. It's just the doubt.
5:53 Esther Perel? If you were avoiding something, what would you be avoiding? If this is all one big protection strategy, what are you protecting?
6:06 Esther Perel? Because then the questions are not about
6:10 Esther Perel? monogamy, plurality, transparency. Then the question is really,
6:19 Esther Perel? what's the fear that lives inside of me? That is not new, that has probably accompanied me in marriage one, marriage two, and every other relationship in between. And so our conversation today is about that, that specific fear that has the ability to take your openness, your curiosity, and your thirst for life, and your confidence, and turn it on its head.
6:51 Speaker 00 I think it is a deep fear that
6:56 Esther Perel? You smiled in recognition, by the way.
7:00 Esther Perel? Yeah, that smile that says, between you and you, that says, I know me.
7:07 Speaker 00 And it's, it's so, it's such a simple knowing, but it's so painful. And I think it's that I'm not enough for others. I'm not enough in the world. I go back and forth between being too much and not being enough. I have this part that's telling me constantly, I'm too big, I'm too much.
7:38 Esther Perel? Too much what?
7:41 Speaker 00 Arrogant, confident, outspoken, all of the things that tend to produce some rejection in society. For me as a female in the South, there is, I think, a lot of cultural judgment of the way I approach life. And then there's this other part that never has felt like enough to keep the connection with another person in a consistent, confident way.
8:16 Esther Perel? And that leads to?
8:20 Speaker 00 I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think a lot. I think it leads to lack of confidence, self doubt, shifting myself and my wants to meet the needs of others, to denying my own needs because my needs are gonna go into the too much category. So if I can just be easy and giving, then other people will want to be connected to me because I'm in the posture of helper or giver. Thus, social work and clergy life that keeps my connection because I have value there. But somehow if I'm
9:03 Speaker 00 honest about my needs and wants, I'm gonna overwhelm people and not be able to remain connected.
9:14 Speaker 00 I I keep finding myself in the same place where either I choose to be connected to people who don't really want to meet my needs. They might want to be needed, but they don't want to actually meet my needs. Or be in a supportive position. Or I stop speaking my needs before I even find out if they're capable or want to be in that relationship with me.
9:46 Esther Perel? And when you, I'm asking you questions just because we just met and
9:52 Speaker 00 Yes.
9:53 Esther Perel? But you have met yourself and you say, I have met this part of me that says you're too much and the part of me that says you're not enough. I know them both very well and I know them for a long time. So let me meet them a little bit more. And let me also ask, when you say when I meet someone, when you meet someone in your congregation, when you meet someone as a friend, when you meet someone as a lover or potential partner, is there a difference between the way these parts live in the world and the type of relationship that we're talking about?
10:36 Speaker 00 I think in a professional role, I have such a protective persona of professional and it's a one-way street.
10:53 Speaker 00 It's not mutual. And and I mean, it is on a very deep level, but I can still present as the giver and I think sometimes the expert.
11:07 Esther Perel? And do you sometimes find yourself in that situation where you say, why do all of them know who to turn to? And I'm there for them. And I have no one that I can turn to like they do with me, who would do for me what I do for them?
11:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, that is a story that is repeated often.
11:33 Speaker 00 Another reason I reached out, I think now, is I'm 50. I think there is a scarcity mindset on some level about, am I going to have what I need in these next years? And there is just this story, this part that tells me the story. You're going to end up alone. You're going to die alone. You're going to spend your whole life taking care of other people. And then in the end, while I have such good friends and I have so many connections, there is a fear that nobody has to be there for me.
12:16 Speaker 00 Everybody that I'm in relationship with has another partner. And so I'm not the most important thing to anyone.
12:30 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.
12:41 Speaker 01 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
13:24 Speaker 02 I'm Josh Mucchio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
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14:09 Speaker 02 And dairy? I never imagined my life journey would be milk. Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
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14:58 Esther Perel? Take me back.
15:01 Esther Perel? Take me back a little bit because the beauty of what you're saying is, I'm afraid. It's a fear. You're not telling me nobody's there for me.
15:10 Speaker 00 Mm-mm.
15:11 Esther Perel? They are there, and nevertheless, I'm still afraid that there may be no one there.
15:18 Esther Perel? I'm still afraid that I will have resent the fact that I gave to everyone, that I was, not just that I gave to everyone, but that in the moments of need that people come to me, I am the most important one. That there is something about meeting people at their most vulnerable that makes me very, very important.
15:39 Speaker 00 That's right.
15:41 Esther Perel? And that is true for therapists, for clergy, for medical professionals, I mean, and it's often a kind of importance that is hard to replicate in other relationships, in other parts of one's life. Who wants you as much as someone who comes in a dire situation to speak with their clergy? I mean, you are it. And if the "I am it," "I'm that most important person you turn to," is the level at which you feel safe of not being alone. Finish the sentence.
16:23 Speaker 00 How can that ever exist in a mutual relationship where I'm not the expert? And I'm not the crisis counselor, and I'm not the clergy. I'm just one real human with another real human.
16:42 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And how do I find a way to make this actually a state of respite and relief, rather than a state of deprivation and fear?
17:00 Speaker 00 Preach.
17:02 Esther Perel? You're the preacher.
17:08 Esther Perel? So tell me, when did you first meet Too Much and Not Enough? How did they become such big parts of you?
17:19 Speaker 00 I mean, I think I've always known them. I think over the last fourteen years, I've befriended them.
17:26 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
17:27 Speaker 00 But I've always known them. So as a child, I lived in a home where
17:35 Speaker 00 from the outside, it looked very stable and on some level, it it definitely was. And on the deeper level, I have a sibling who has severe mental illness and was acting out a lot. And then another sibling that was gone. And I'm six years younger than both of them. And so I was little, I was in my house where there was a lot of chaos. And the the one person I really felt connected to was my father. But he was a businessman and he traveled constantly and would be gone for three, four weeks at a time. And I would never know when he was leaving.
18:20 Speaker 00 Or when he was coming back, because I was little and they just didn't talk about that. So I have memories of waking up and seeing his bags at the doorway and just being like, oh, God.
18:35 Speaker 00 Knowing that when he left, I was alone because my mom didn't really have the capacity to deal with my sibling and uh, it was just chaos, lots of fighting and but then when my dad was home, he would ground things and I would feel safe again. But it was inconsistent and unpredictable. And I think that I just kind of hid out and but yet I was really responsible from a young age uh, to to be kind of the emotional lightning rod. So I think it was.
19:18 Speaker 00 Really difficult to be, have that part of me, that helper part to be overdeveloped at such a young age. And so then, when I went out into the world with this kind of overdeveloped sense of, I don't know, helper maturity, it, there was a pushback. And I was often rejected for being overly confident or arrogant or all of these words that got, I think, thrown at me from a young age.
19:48 Esther Perel? By?
19:50 Speaker 00 Uh. Peers, but also teachers. And then people in charge of institutions that I worked in or people in authority. So I, I had this childhood where I didn't, I didn't have a consistent connection. And I think part of me feels like it's because I wasn't enough to keep the consistent connection. I wasn't enough
20:18 Speaker 00 to stay home for.
20:21 Speaker 00 And then I was also too much in the world often, or seen as that and critiqued as that.
20:29 Esther Perel? What do you mean when you say to stay home for?
20:33 Speaker 00 I think there's a part of me that thinks if my dad had known how much I needed him there, if I'd been enough for him to take care of, he wouldn't have kept leaving.
20:46 Esther Perel? Hmm.
20:49 Esther Perel? So you personalized his leaving?
20:52 Speaker 00 I think so.
20:53 Esther Perel? Hmm.
20:53 Speaker 00 I think, yeah, I think as a
20:55 Esther Perel? How old is she?
20:56 Speaker 00 Young person, I did. Oh, little. Six. Maybe even younger, but definitely around six.
21:06 Esther Perel? Yeah, I had in mind five, six, yeah.
21:09 Speaker 00 And I also had, um.
21:13 Speaker 00 My, when I was six years old, my doctor told my parents that I was overweight. And they put me on a diet at six where all of my food was weighed. And I couldn't, I could only eat what was weighed. But everybody else in my family could have whatever they wanted. But at six.
21:39 Esther Perel? Wow, for how long?
21:41 Speaker 00 Oh, until I was probably, I mean, I'm not sure how long the weighing of the food took place, but then I had to like go to Weight Watchers and weigh in public. And until I was probably fifteen, sixteen.
21:56 Speaker 00 So talk about being too much.
21:58 Esther Perel? Yeah, I just thought of that too. Hmm.
22:04 Esther Perel? Did you stop on your own?
22:09 Speaker 00 Oh, no, I think I stopped eating uh so much and lost a bunch of weight. And then they were like, oh, it's great. She's fine now. When I'm stressed, my appetite goes away, right? So when I am stressed, I stop needing much of anything. Because that was, you know, everything was very controlled. My needs didn't dictate what I was given. It was literally weighed, and that's what I got.
22:45 Esther Perel? Mm hmm, mm hmm.
22:47 Speaker 00 So I think the, the combination of all of that, like these young parts of me that believe my needs have to be controlled and weighed in order to be fed.
22:57 Esther Perel? Mm hmm. And how do you communicate with that young part of you? You know, like many five-year-olds personalize. If my parents divorce, it's because of me. If my father travels or if, if he really cared if I was more, if he would not travel rather than whatever the circumstances of his life. So at five, six, we do put ourselves at the center of the universe. It's actually developmentally common. What's more troubling is when that five-year-old still runs the show. And when it still looks that.
23:42 Esther Perel? You live with this feeling that people are weighing your food, your emotional food, maybe not your physical food, your material food, but your emotional food. And that it's decided by the outside and that you always have a tenuous relationship to your own needs. And that you actually, on some level, since you didn't, you didn't really get to learn what they were on some level because somebody else was applying metrics to it. So you're left with a certain uncertainty about what's too little, what's too much, what's fair, what's not fair, what do I deserve, what do I not deserve, what can I ask for, what should I not have to ask for that other people should just give me?
24:22 Speaker 00 Yep.
24:23 Esther Perel? This whole
24:24 Speaker 00 Yes.
24:25 Esther Perel? dance, right, around.
24:28 Speaker 00 So how do I interact with that part? I
24:32 Esther Perel? Let her know that you are not five anymore.
24:35 Speaker 00 Yes.
24:36 Esther Perel? Right? It's like, and that, yes, there is something about being intensely needed that makes me feel less afraid that I will be alone because if people need me, they come. Yes, there is something artificial in some way, in the level of importance that one has, certainly as a clergy, as a person who accompanies people at the most extreme situations and moments of their life. So I am so central, so much a bearer of meaning and ritual and grief and all of that. So outside of that realm, it often feels some challenging, like, so then who am I?
25:21 Esther Perel? When I'm not this, what's my value? Who am I? What would people come to me for? And so a part of me absolutely wants people to come to me in those moments. And then a part of me feels that, you know, but they don't come for small things. Come to some, come for something simple for a change.
25:42 Esther Perel? I mean, I'm fantasizing about you. I'm riffing out loud. You tell me if it's hot or cold.
25:49 Speaker 00 Hmm, no, it's, it's absolutely true. I think there's security in being needed and a lot of insecurity in needing
26:01 Esther Perel? Hmm.
26:02 Speaker 00 for me, for that part, but that, that part gets the keys to the bus, so to speak. When I am in mutual relationships that don't have
26:17 Esther Perel? Yeah, when I'm not in this role, I am secure when I'm needed. I am insecure when I need.
26:26 Speaker 00 Yep.
26:26 Esther Perel? This is the organizing line of our conversation.
26:31 Speaker 00 Yes. I am insecure when I have any needs.
26:39 Esther Perel? And I am also insecure when you don't need me in such an acute way.
26:47 Esther Perel? Like, can I be liked just for who I am rather than for what I provide?
26:57 Esther Perel? Hmm, that one touched you.
27:00 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
27:02 Speaker 00 I think within every relationship I've had, there comes a point where I've asked that question. Does this person love me for who I am or for what I do for them?
27:17 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
27:19 Speaker 00 And I've never trusted,
27:24 Speaker 00 no matter what they say.
27:27 Speaker 00 I've never really trusted that they love me and want me and want to be connected to me because of just who I am. In fact, when I even say the words who I am, it almost feels like a reverb. Like, I don't even know what that means. Part of me is like, what does that mean, who you are?
27:51 Esther Perel? If I'm not helping you, saving you, advising you, ministering to you.
28:01 Esther Perel? Do you enjoy my company?
28:04 Esther Perel? Do you value my presence?
28:07 Esther Perel? Do you seek me out?
28:11 Esther Perel? To have fun, to explore, to talk, to create deep connection. But that is not based on my being the deliverer of help. What other transactions exist between me and my partners? That is not rooted in that structure? I think the question is really, really good. And it's less a question about them. Would they like me if they didn't need me or if I wasn't helping them? Is not a question they have. That's why you say, even when regardless of what they tell me, I don't believe them.
28:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
28:52 Esther Perel? Because a part of me is deeply attached to being needed.
29:00 Esther Perel? I'm comfortable there. And part of why you're here today is to say, what else is out there for me?
29:07 Speaker 00 What am I missing?
29:08 Esther Perel? Uh huh.
29:08 Speaker 00 What am I missing? This is the key.
29:10 Esther Perel? Uh huh. So now I'm with this new person. And how would he respond if I actually didn't position myself as the expert, as vice, helper, rescuer?
29:25 Esther Perel? But just in a more mutual, as you say, more reciprocal.
29:32 Esther Perel? Because it's not about flipping it. It's not about me becoming.
29:37 Esther Perel? It's really mutual, reciprocal, open-ended.
29:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know.
29:45 Esther Perel? What have you tried so far? You've two years with him.
29:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, a little more than that now. Um, I'm trying, this is something we've talked about, is I'm, I'm trying to state what I need.
29:59 Esther Perel? Uh huh.
30:00 Speaker 00 Uh, clearly.
30:03 Speaker 00 Because sometimes I think I've said a need.
30:06 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
30:07 Speaker 00 But it but it's not clear.
30:09 Esther Perel? To whom?
30:09 Speaker 00 And when I to well, I think probably wouldn't be clear to most people. Because the way I'll state it is so like uh.
30:19 Esther Perel? Convoluted, yes.
30:21 Speaker 00 And avoidant, you know, I I I I'm so avoidant with my, well, I'm not always, but I have a comfort with being ambiguous about my needs, because then they won't be too much.
30:32 Esther Perel? And so if I don't catch it, and if I didn't hear it, you didn't really make it so obvious, so then you don't have to be disappointed that you asked for something and it was refused. So you ask it in such a convoluted way that if I miss it, we can pretend it never happened.
30:49 Speaker 00 That's right.
30:49 Esther Perel? So now let's do a little exercise. Give me ten things you need, five, let's do it, I'll be gentle.
30:55 Speaker 00 Thank you, thank you.
30:57 Esther Perel? Give me five things.
30:58 Speaker 00 Things I need.
30:59 Esther Perel? Yeah, but the point is not about what you need. This is not in the what. This is in the healthy sense of entitlement to just ask and not put myself and turn myself into such a pretzel who is on the one hand uncomfortable, on the other end angry that you even have to, and then confused about it, and then tense about it, and then fearful about it. And it's wrapped in so many things that it's usually not surprising that the the question didn't come out simple and clear. So we don't have a relationship, so you can just practice with me. We have an ad hoc momentary intimacy here.
31:43 Esther Perel? And I'm just saying, give me five things you would like, you enjoy, you need, you long for, you aspire to.
31:53 Esther Perel? And breathe each time you say them. Just, this is about embodying them and about being at ease. Because there's nothing I can do. I'm just a stranger we met, you met, and I don't come with history.
32:17 Esther Perel? I'm all ears.
32:19 Speaker 00 I need to be seen.
32:25 Esther Perel? Now, take a deep breath and say it again. And you'll stop when you said it with ease and calm.
32:37 Speaker 00 I need to be seen.
32:38 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm. You need to be seen.
32:41 Speaker 00 I need to be seen.
32:44 Esther Perel? Tell me again.
32:48 Speaker 00 I need to be seen.
32:57 Esther Perel? Loosen your jaw.
33:01 Esther Perel? Just loosen your jaw.
33:04 Esther Perel? Because you're holding it all right at the jaw. You, you can literally take your hands and just loosen it.
33:15 Esther Perel? And then tell me again.
33:18 Speaker 00 I need to be seen.
33:19 Esther Perel? Yes, much better.
33:22 Speaker 00 I need to be seen.
33:23 Esther Perel? Hmm.
33:28 Esther Perel? We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.
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34:42 Esther Perel? Welcome to the Tiger fam.
34:47 Esther Perel? And what else do you need?
34:50 Esther Perel? Want? Like?
34:53 Speaker 00 I need to be fed.
34:54 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
34:56 Speaker 00 And feed myself.
34:58 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
35:00 Speaker 00 I need to be cared for. And I'm don't, I don't even really know what that means when I say it like, but it just feels like a deep, like I need to and want to be cared for.
35:17 Esther Perel? Oh, you do know what it means because you care for a ton of people.
35:24 Esther Perel? It means you think of them, you hold them in your thoughts, you hold them, really, you touch them, you reach out to them.
35:38 Speaker 00 So this just came to me, I, I need to allow myself to be cared for.
35:43 Esther Perel? Nice.
35:45 Speaker 00 Yeah.
35:45 Esther Perel? Nice. Say that one again.
35:48 Speaker 00 I need to allow myself to be cared for.
35:52 Esther Perel? Hmm. So close your eyes for a moment and just feel it.
35:59 Esther Perel? Where does this allowance to be cared for start in your body? Where does it begin?
36:10 Speaker 00 Feels like an expansiveness in my lower gut, like a opening.
36:18 Esther Perel? Put your hands there and just breathe right into it.
36:24 Esther Perel? So that you feel that expansion, physically feel it, sense it.
36:32 Esther Perel? Nothing like the membrane of your gut expanding, tightening, blowing open, and pressing against your hands.
36:44 Esther Perel? It's exactly where you probably held the bottom of your child when you were holding them.
36:53 Speaker 00 Yeah.
36:56 Esther Perel? And when you open the bottom of the gut, it opens the chest.
37:02 Esther Perel? And when you open the chest, it opens your shoulders.
37:07 Esther Perel? And when you open your shoulders, it lifts your neck and it loosens your jaw. And you are allowing yourself to be cared for. You're making space for needs, for wants, for pleasures, for what other people can give to you.
37:30 Esther Perel? You're surrounded by people who actually wanna give to you. That is not your issue.
37:36 Speaker 00 Uh-uh, I know.
37:38 Esther Perel? Okay, we've established that. You're not alone.
37:43 Esther Perel? You're not alone. It's, can I allow myself to let them give? Because when they do, then it makes me more vulnerable because it puts me in touch with those needs and it puts me in touch with the fear that today they're here, but tomorrow they could not be here.
38:03 Esther Perel? Welcome to life.
38:07 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:08 Esther Perel? Who doesn't have that feeling?
38:12 Esther Perel? When you love, you live with the fear of loss.
38:17 Esther Perel? That's fact. They can die, they can get sick, they can leave. The moment you get close, you live with the fear of what it would be to lose them. Everyone does, that's existential. That's not just psychological.
38:36 Esther Perel? The degree with which you live with that fear, to the point where it doesn't allow you
38:46 Esther Perel? to let people in at a level that you would like, that's psychological, that's historical.
38:54 Esther Perel? The existence of the fear itself is normal, is real. But if you close yourself and you don't allow that expansion inside that says, "Come in",
39:08 Esther Perel? it's hitting you wrong words.
39:12 Speaker 00 The fear of losing the people we love is a fear everyone knows and experiences. But the, my self-protective part that keeps the connection from deepening by allowing people to care for me is one that I learned
39:38 Speaker 00 to do.
39:43 Esther Perel? How does that land on you?
39:48 Speaker 00 It feels both heavy, like, oh my gosh, I've spent a lot of time protecting myself. And that makes sense, and there are consequences to that. And I also am aware that if I learned it, I can continue to unlearn that behavior.
40:16 Esther Perel? Shall we do one more that I need?
40:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, sure. Let's see.
40:24 Speaker 00 I need to be vulnerable. And
40:32 Speaker 00 the word "weak" is coming to my mind that have such negative connotations, but I really mean it in a sense, like, a body way. Like, I need to be
40:46 Speaker 00 able to show up in moments more fragile or weak, not...
40:53 Speaker 00 Yeah, just that. I, I need to be able to experience fragility, to be present in a fragile way.
41:04 Esther Perel? Yeah. Fragile, weaker, vulnerable, as opposed to knowing all, in charge,
41:17 Esther Perel? too much, arrogant, that whole other.
41:22 Esther Perel? Yes, beautiful. I need to be allowed to not know,
41:29 Esther Perel? to be afraid, to be unsure, to be fragile, without any negativity associated to all of this.
41:40 Speaker 00 Hungry.
41:42 Esther Perel? Nice.
41:46 Speaker 00 And I need to be able to be needy of
41:51 Esther Perel? Yep.
41:52 Speaker 00 the things that sustain me. All of the other things we listed really fall under this just I need to be able to be needy.
42:01 Esther Perel? So I have a little suggestion for you.
42:05 Esther Perel? Can you think of two or three people
42:10 Esther Perel? that you could go to and say, this woman I talked to made me do this whole thing. And then she said, I'd like you to ask a few people who know you well.
42:24 Esther Perel? How am I doing in this department?
42:29 Speaker 00 Of showing up needy, vulnerable?
42:31 Esther Perel? Yeah.
42:32 Speaker 00 Okay.
42:32 Esther Perel? Vulnerable, need to be fed, need to be held, need to be seen, you know. Do you even know that I have those needs? Have I ever even articulated some of these things in ways that I'm not aware of? It comes out anyway. Or does it look like I'm always, you know, well put together, all in charge, and God would never know that I have any of this living inside of me? And she wanted me to do a little survey,
43:06 Esther Perel? fact checking, about what's the relationship between what lives inside of me and what lives between me and you?
43:17 Esther Perel? Could be your ex-wife with whom you co-parent and are on good terms. Could be your current partner, could be a good friend. You don't have to make it a whole session, but just, you know, I want to do a little pulse check. Could that be?
43:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, definitely. Thank you.
43:44 Esther Perel? Is this a good place to stop?
43:47 Speaker 00 Yes, thank you, Esther.
43:49 Esther Perel? Very good.
43:50 Speaker 00 Yes.
44:02 Speaker 04 This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
44:44 Speaker 04 And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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45:43 Speaker 02 I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
45:54 Speaker 04 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.
46:00 Speaker 02 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands.
46:05 Speaker 05 We're building Eight Sleep for daytime.
46:07 Speaker 02 Hardware that helps blind people see.
46:09 Speaker 06 They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
46:15 Speaker 02 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
46:17 Speaker 07 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
46:20 Speaker 06 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.
46:28 Speaker 02 And dairy?
46:29 Speaker 01 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
46:32 Speaker 02 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
Previous To Forgive My Ex-Husband I Need to Forgive Myself First Next I Can't Love You the Way You Want Me To Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated