André 3000

André Benjamin, popularly known as André 3000, is a rapper, singer, songwriter, producer, and actor best known as one half of the Southern hip hop duo Outkast. Described by Rolling Stone as “one of the genre’s most gifted lyricists,” André helped redefine Southern rap with classic albums like ATLiens, Aquemini, Stankonia, and the Grammy-winning Speakerboxxx/The Love Below, producing hits such as “Ms. Jackson” and “Hey Ya!” Beyond Outkast, he has contributed to music as a producer and collaborator with artists including Aretha Franklin, John Legend, and Frank Ocean, while also acting in films including Four Brothers and portraying Jimi Hendrix in Jimi: All Is by My Side. In 2023, André released his ambient flute album New Blue Sun, earning three Grammy nominations for Album of the Year, Best Alternative Jazz Album, and Best Instrumental Composition. This year, André released his album 7 Piano Sketches, a short, intimate collection of mostly improvised piano pieces that showcases the artist’s continued exploration of instrumental music beyond his hip hop roots. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Squarespace https://Squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://DrinkLMNT.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www. AthleticNicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Rick Rubin?

  Tetragrammaton.

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Sometimes, just to get an idea down, I just, you know, put on your voice notes and record from my iPhone. And so I started just putting the iPhone on the piano when I wake up just to record whatever I'm doing. And as a fun thing, I would send these kind of little shorts. Sometimes they're like a minute, sometimes they're two, three minutes. I would send them to my son. I would send them to his mom, Erica. I would send them to my stepdad, to my mom, to even musician friends. I might send it to Q-Tip. I might send it to Tyler. So when they look back in their phone history, if they still have some of those texts from back then, they're gonna find these piano pieces that are on the album. They were just personal at-home recordings.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  And then when I listened back to them, I just thought, there's something special about them. And I thought, maybe I should share them in a way. Even though it is iPhone quality, we mastered it, put it to vinyl. So it's kind of like a, almost like a novelty, a novelty project. Do you think of it as a musical diary? Well, more like a photo book. Like, from this time, this is a snap. You know, yeah. Can you play me something from it? Sure.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  So this song is called "Blueberry Mountains." This is one of the songs. There are two songs on this album that are not improv. This is one of them. But it's improv in how I performed it because I'd never performed it like this. And this song is one of the first songs that I ever tried to compose on piano, ever. This was recorded on a very bright piano. And I don't like bright pianos for some reason, so... I was like, well, what can I do with these bright pianos? So I was trying to find a way to just lean into the brightness. And so I told the engineer, you know how like trap rappers, like future, they'll put like autotune on their vocals?

• 2:22Speaker 01

  And it gives it some type of like digital coding on the voice? And so I was like, after I play this, can we put autotune on the piano?

• 2:31Rick Rubin?

  Cool.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  But it wasn't like changing my notes or anything. It just put this almost like this digital water on.

• 2:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  So you'll hear it almost like makes an acoustic piano sound kind of fake.

• 2:41Rick Rubin?

  Cool.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Blueberry Mountains.

• 4:28Rick Rubin?

  So when it had words, what were the words?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Uh, blueberry, blueberry mountain, strawberry, strawberry fields was kind of like a Beatles reference. Blueberry mountain, strawberry fields, banana peels for heels. That was the chorus. Blueberry mountain, strawberry fields, banana peels for heels. I have no idea what I was talking about at the time.

• 4:52Rick Rubin?

  Was there verses too?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Yes, it was kind of like a chant in between those choruses. And it was saying, um, why, why are you up on the hill in your big homes? I'm out here risking my dome. Blueberry mountain, strawberry fields, banana peels for heels. Why are you up on the hill in your big homes? I'm, I'm down here risking my dome. Blueberry mountains. That's all I can remember from it.

• 5:17Rick Rubin?

  Cool.

• 5:19Rick Rubin?

  It's beautiful.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Thank you, man.

• 5:20Rick Rubin?

  In a time when everything is quantized and auto tuned and perfected, hearing something that sounds human, even if it's got a synthetic edge to it, is interesting. It feels like a moment in time.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Yes, that to me, that's, that's really when you, when you think of New Blue Sun and kind of what this is now, like I know a lot of people criticize it for being a certain thing, but what I'm looking for right now is moments, like special moments, not perfect. And I'm not looking for perfection. I'm not looking for quote unquote hits or anything. I mean, I love a hit, I love perfection too, but what's interesting to me are things that are actually interesting. And so we mastered this, I was sitting with Bernie, Bernie Grumman, and he was listening to it. And he was like, oh, man, this is refreshing, you know? He said, I master a lot of things. And he's like, a lot of times it comes in as a bar. Everyone just wants loud, loud, loud, loud. And I understand, he was saying, I understand why they want it loud because, you know,

• 6:21Speaker 01

  they want to compete in the club or wherever. But once you get the attention from being loud, you have to hold that attention like, and it becomes uninteresting after a while. And when we were mastering these pieces, he was like, there's something. He said, "I love that there's dynamic in it." Like, they're jumping out, then it gets quiet. You know, it's kind of like, he described it as, uh, being like classical in a way, in some ways, where things jump out and then they get really quiet. And that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for the specialness. I almost call them like novelty records. Like, I'm, what I'm doing now is making records that if I'm gonna collect, I always look at it from the outside. Like, if I'm not me, I would want to collect this album.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  I would want to collect New Blue Sun. Because it's not like other albums. Yes, yes. This is the one like that. And a year from now, I would want this, like, I would like, whoa, Andre did this. Yeah. You know, Andre did this. Yeah. So it's kind of for me, it's the novelty specialness of it. I think it has a lot to do with age, too, because at this age, I'm trying to make things that I feel of beauty or a specialness. You know what I mean? That means a lot, you know, in my, in my eyes. Of course, I mean, pop music can, can mean a lot, for sure. I'm not saying that, but for me, and what I've done and what I've been through, this is most interesting for me. Yeah. The last time we spoke, this was way before the New Blue Sun album.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Before we even recorded that album. It's almost like, like, that was a different person, almost. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Same person, but, you know. I understand. I was just in a whole nother, different headspace. But yeah, a lot has happened since then, man. Exploring, making music, as always, you know. Tell me about the hunt for flutes around the world, what you've found. Yeah, so, I mean, flutes is kind of like anything else. I mean, you collect music instruments as well. It's like, once you find, like, your end, the thing that kind of attracts you first, you kind of want to know more about that instrument or things like it, you know? So, you know, once I started playing, like, indigenous flutes,

• 8:33Speaker 01

  that got me into a whole nother play on all kinds of flutes from different cultures, from, you know, bansuri, Indian flutes, to, uh, you know, Japanese flutes, to Korean flutes, uh, African flutes, just anything that had, like, holes in it, you know, that I could manipulate. I just wanted to hear it. And so I kind of like went on a, just a binge of, like, finding and collecting and seeing which ones I responded to. And when we went on tour, I would kind of like at this point I got, I don't know, like seventy-five, eighty flutes. And I haven't really counted them all, but when it's time to go on tour, you can't take all of them. So you have to kind of decide which ones are going to be your favorites at that moment.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  And it really depends on the vibe you're in. Sometimes certain flutes are speaking to you at a certain time. And you just, you're kind of in this zone for a minute, you know? And then you may move to another zone. But yeah, man, I was kind of, yeah, just collecting, buying flutes. And everywhere, like every city we went to, we kind of made it a thing to kind of hunt. So we went to like vintage shops.

• 9:43Rick Rubin?

  Great.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  A lot of different flea markets and like, you know, used instrument places. So we would pick up all kinds of instruments and in true form, like we may play them like that night, like being amateurs at them, you know, just to see what we get from first responses. Like first, you know, your kid like playing with it, you know, before you study it or get better in a certain way. Because you'll never get that time back again, you know?

• 10:14Rick Rubin?

  It's purely instinctual at that time. You don't know how it works yet.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  But you do, you do a thing that I value a lot. And I call it a gear that people overlook. Like it's a, it's the amateur gear. Like I think it's a, people overlook it to get to, you know, experienced and well-trained, which is awesome. But you'll never be able to get the first responses back. So I cherish those, man. Like, yeah, even on the album New Blue Sign, the beginning track, it's an instrument, I'm playing this electronic wind instrument. And I actually took it out of the box like maybe twenty minutes before we started recording. So what you hear is me figuring out the latency, you know,

• 11:02Speaker 01

  figuring out what I can get out of it. It was a stock oboe sound, you know? And I was like, whoa, I like this sound. And started playing the melody and that's what came. And so that's.

• 11:12Rick Rubin?

  What's an electronic wind instrument?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  It's like a flute, but it's.

• 11:17Rick Rubin?

  Do you blow into it or no?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, you blow into it. It's your embouchure, like the pressure of your lips, the pressure of the wind. It's all calculated and then sent through, you know?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Whatever computer and it's very responsive. It's awesome. Like it's it. It opened a whole new door because when we went to record at that session, I had all my, you know, wooden flutes. And in my mind, I'm like, yeah, OK, we're doing this wooden flute kind of situation. And I just took this. And that completely just opened a whole nother door that I can, like you can hook it up to anything and play anything. Like it's almost like a MIDI instrument.

• 11:53Rick Rubin?

  That's what I was gonna say. Like a piano is an acoustic physical instrument.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:58Rick Rubin?

  But you can play a keyboard that you play like a piano, but it can trigger sounds, any kind of sound.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Same, same way. Same way. That's that's exactly what it is, but it's.

• 12:07Rick Rubin?

  But you blow into it.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  It's wind controlled.

• 12:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the pressure of your wind, even like um, like on a on a true like woodwind instrument, like your embouchure, like if you bite down on the reed, it'll sometimes bend the note. And, you know, you can go into the app and fix how much pressure you want, like how responsive it is, how much kind of fight, when fight back you want like. So that opened up a whole new door on the album. And it's just even since then, like touring, it opened up a whole new sound palette that I can just play anything.

• 12:41Rick Rubin?

  So is the thing that makes a flute a flute is that it's a tube with holes in it?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:47Rick Rubin?

  Like a saxophone is a tube with holes, but it has more to it. It's got more mechanics.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:53Rick Rubin?

  And a clarinet has more mechanics.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, I would say, I mean, you're probably right. The basis of a flute is some cylinder with holes in it, you know, that they're evenly spaced out to get, and sometimes not even evenly spaced out, like, like back in the day when they first started making flutes, I mean, they didn't have measuring equipment in that way. So they were just kind of going on what they heard over time, you know, the distance between the holes and even the width of the hole makes, you know, sharp, flat kind of.

• 13:25Rick Rubin?

  And how different when you pick up a different flute, how different are they from each other?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, they're they're like people. Like even if you have the same flute maker, same key, same length of wood, it's gonna sound different, especially when when you're dealing with like a, you know, handmade instruments in wood like. I mean, there's just so much like the wood is a real responsive thing. And even the same flute made of two different woods, same key will sound different. So, I mean, I'm sure like guitar players can tell you the same thing. Like you can, you can get five different Fender strats and they all gonna sound different. Even if it's made in the same factory. Yeah, it's just kind of, it's inherent, but that's the magic of it though.

• 14:12Rick Rubin?

  The difference in the way it sounds will inspire you to play it differently?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yes. Yep. My, my very first flute that I got from Guillermo, it's in the key of E. And over time, I play it and I didn't know that, that you're supposed to clean it out after you play every time. So for years, I've just never cleaned it. So it would hold, I mean, I'll be too graphic, but all the moisture from my mouth, it would almost create a coating in the cylinder of the flute.

• 14:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  And to me, it gave it a certain character.

• 14:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Because once I went back to get it cleaned out, it was a completely different flute. And it was, it was a sad day for me too, because it had gained like a soul. You know, it, it really sounded like a mature woman that, you know, had lived. And then after I got it cleaned out, it just sounded like a new young person. And I almost, I was unfamiliar with this thing and it was like, ugh.

• 15:16Rick Rubin?

  So since then, have you not cleaned it?

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I, I don't. I don't. Or I just expect that it's gonna be this way and I clean it. But I like it to have something built in, even if it's tuned out a little bit. I like it. I don't know. It just sometimes it adds, it's an actual coating. Cause you're coating the cylinder with, you know.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, human stuff. Yeah, and it's your stuff too. It's like it's personal. Yep, yep, yep, yeah. It certainly personalizes it. Yeah, yeah. Tell me the story of getting the first flute. How'd that happen? Were you looking for a flute? Actually, let me even go back because we were just sitting here talking about California. When I moved out here, I knew nothing about Venice. I knew nothing about like the west side. And so this real estate agent, we had been looking like for almost like a week for a place. And I was only supposed to be for like six months, kind of like just regrouping. And I was looking for a rental spot in, you know, LA proper, like in, inside the city. And we looked at a few places and none of them really spoke to me in a way.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  And on a whim, you know, the agent said, well, I got this one little spot, this little bitty house in Venice. And so I was like, all right. I told my friends, you know, I might be checking out Venice. And they were like, no, no, like, don't move to Venice because if you move to the west side, we'll never see you. You know, and it's kind of true because once you over here, you don't need to go back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the other side, everything is here. Yeah, it's so much nicer on the west side. Yeah, it's actually cooler. It's cooler on the west side, like you're, the beach air makes it cool. Like in the summertime, when it's hot, hot, like it can be a hundred degrees inside the city. It'll be like eighty-five. Yeah. Here. Yeah. And so I liked it in that way.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  And when I got to Venice, man, it's kind of like, I do believe like sometimes we were put in places to meet who we need to meet and the people we need to meet at a certain time. And I happened to just be going, I met this girl at this breathwork class and. Tell me about the breathwork class. What type was it? Yeah, it was kind of you're doing this holotropic breathing kind of where for an hour, you're doing this intense kind of rhythmic breathing where you kind of get in a trance in a way. And this young lady invited me to the class. And so I went to the class and then after the class, because you're, you're laying on the mat. Like you're doing, you're laying on your back on a mat while you're doing it. And after the class, while the class is sitting there, some people started setting up instruments. And so the teacher's like, hey, if you want to stay,

• 17:48Speaker 01

  you know, we have, you know, these performers. So Farmer Dave and Cassia were playing. They were just setting up. And I didn't know who they were. I didn't know Cassia from a can of paint. And they were setting up guitars and flute, you know, native flute. And Cassia starts playing this wooden flute. And I'm laying on my back and like, man, what is this? You know, man, I've never heard this sound in my life. Like, whoa, what is this sound? And I had to go up to her after the class. And I was like, what's that? You know, what are you playing? And she said, yeah, it's this indigenous flute. She said, that's Guy Guillermo Martinez. He made it for me. And I said, can you, you know, pass me Guillermo's info? And she gave me Guillermo's number.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  And I reached out to him, told him I wanted a flute. I went on his site, just picked the key. I didn't know, you know, just picked the key and put in an order. And yeah, he made my first flute. And from the first day I got it, I went to pick the flute up. And I had to drive out to Medeska Canyon. Way, I was about an hour outside of LA. And so this is where his workshop is, where he makes the flutes. And I go to pick it up. And I'm thinking, yeah, I'm just going, you know, pay for this flute and be on my way, you know? And so I grabbed the flute. And, you know, we do all what we need to do. And he says, OK, so let me just take you outside real quick. And he takes me out in front of the barn.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  And then he lights up a smudge stick. And he turns me in one direction. He smudges me. He turns me in another direction. He smudges me, smudges the flute. And so I'm like, whoa, OK. You know, this is a thing. And then he told me the history of flute playing, Native American flute playing. Yeah, he took me through there. And after then, I took it home. And from the first day I got it, I just never stopped playing it. I would walk and play like I I love to walk. So I would walk like five, six miles and back home playing. And it just became an everyday thing and I would find little patterns I loved. I would find, you know, made up melodies. I didn't take a I don't I don't know if it's even a lesson. I mean, I'm sure someone can teach you now.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  You can probably find it on TikTok or something, but like I didn't take any lessons. I just picked it up and the the learning curve on these flutes are not that hard at all. It's basically it's kind of like a recorder in a way. Because you're blowing through a hole and you're manipulating the the notes by however many fingers you have up or down and you can bend the notes. You learn these kind of things after playing with it for a while. You can have a note, you could slide it into a note. And all these things just became, um, yeah, just interesting to me because I was always into like jazz music, classical music, and some of the best parts of some of my best composers were when they started playing the piccolo or flute parts, you know, or oboe parts.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  So I was always into wind instruments or woodwind instruments. Even before I got into the flute, I was playing bass clarinet. And then I got an oboe later on, which is the hardest instrument to play in the world. So, yeah, uh, once I I started it, I just I ain't never put it down. How was developing the wind to play? Do you run out of breath? Yes, you do. You do run out of breath, but I think because I walk a lot, I would play while I'm walking. So it almost kind of trained me to be out of breath in a way. So my wind was up and I think because I'm a rapper, my wind was up to start with, you know. Do you still think of yourself as a rapper? I don't really. That's what's crazy. Because you just said that. I know, I know, I know. You're a rapper? Yeah, I know, I know.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  It's weird, man. Like, I wish I was more of a rapper right now. It's another life. Yeah, it it is. You know what's funny? Like, when you asked me that, because like I always I I have thoughts all the time and sometimes raps start as just thoughts. And so I always write them down and I always rhyme things. I still rhyme, you know, but it's not like a. It's not like an everyday practice. I don't know, I just, I don't have a connection with it like I used to.

• 21:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 01

  You know, but I would like to, and I try, I keep, I keep trying because there's a challenge that I'm trying to do with myself, like I wanna see, well, what can I make? That sounds authentic for me right now, you know? And I'm, I'm influenced by everything, so I listen to, you know, new kids, old kids, like, so I always try to figure out, what can I do now, you know, at this age, I'll be 50 in May. And it's even weird for me to even say like 50, like, I do not feel 50 at all.

• 22:25Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  You know, but when I look in the mirror and I see all this silver hair, I'm like, yeah, nigga, you 50. You 50. If I never knew my age, I probably would think I'm like 38 in heart and in spirit, like 38, 40 maybe. Which ain't that far from 50, but.

• 22:43Rick Rubin?

  It's different, though.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  It's, it is, it is totally different.

• 22:46Rick Rubin?

  Psychologically different.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it take you a little minute to, to get up. Like, yeah, like I have to adjust my back, you know, when I get up. Which, uh, aging, I always say is like hilarious to me, aging is hilarious and cruel at the exact same time.

• 23:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  It's hilarious because all the things that you used to be able to do, it's harder to do those things.

• 23:12Rick Rubin?

  The regular things.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yes, the regular things.

• 23:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  And it's cruel because you know that mortality is happening. Like you, you know what's happening, you know, it's not like a mystery of what's happening. I wouldn't wanna go back to being a younger age, though, which is weird.

• 23:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Another kinda weird thing, like if someone could say, yeah, you can go back to being 25, I would not.

• 23:32Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 23:37Rick Rubin?

  I don't think I ever asked you about your parents, tell me about your parents.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, they passed away young, uh, both with heart trouble, my mom had a heart attack in her sleep. My father, he had a valve in his heart that just stopped working, so both of them, uh, they kinda checked out young.

• 23:54Rick Rubin?

  How was your relationship with them?

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Uh, me and my mom, we were like tight. Uh, I grew up with my mom, my mom and dad were never married, so I would see my dad a lot, but, you know, it's just, it's a different thing when you're not in the house. So.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Me and my dad were really cool. He was like one of the, one of the, just the coolest, kindest people that I know. But we, we weren't that close, you know? Yeah, we, we just, we just weren't. Did you feel a connection though? Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think around like fourteen, my mom sent me to live with my dad. And so, of course, that was a lot better. So I got to be around him more. But then, I mean, we started making music at seventeen. So that's like three, four years and I'm out. Yeah. So, you know, we traveling around the world like at that point. So I only had a little time with my dad. What was your mom's musical taste like? And what was your dad's musical taste like? Mom, uh, mom was like top forty kind of girl.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  So, you know, she was singing like Supremes, uh, Diana Ross songs, Regina Bell, Anita Baker. Like she was a R and B kind of kid, you know? Mm-hmm. Good taste. Mm-hmm. Uh. Listen to the radio or would she play records or the sets? Uh, listen to the radio. She had some records around. More radio, you said. But mostly radio. Yeah. And, and our time we spent was in the car a lot. So we listened to her a lot in the car. My dad was on the funk side. So my dad played a lot of hardcore funk, you know, Gap Band, Paul Man Funkadelic. But even like further back, like he was Temptations, Four Tops. Mm-hmm. Type of person. Did they both love music? Yes, but my, my mom was more on the gospel side too.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Cause my mom was like, we went to church a lot. And so, uh, my mom. You went every? Every week, like three times a week, like Bible study. Wow. Uh. Would you ever sing in church? Yeah, I was in the choir. Yeah. Vacation Bible school, Bible study, all that kind of stuff. So my mama kept me in the church. So a lot of the music, uh, we would listen to was like very old style gospel music. And I really love like Reverend C J Johnson kind of stuff, uh, where it was just people clapping and feet stomping and moaning and singing kind of gospel. But I did like some contemporary gospel of that time, like, um, the Clark Sisters were, were big for me. They're amazing. Yeah, man.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  See, my grandfather was a preacher too. And so he had a little church. And most southern people that went to little churches there know, it's a certain kind of church when they pull out an old chair and sit it in the middle of the pew and people get down and testify or they pray on that old chair. And it's a certain kind of church. And my grandfather had one of those churches. He was one of the preachers that like grab his ear and

• 26:48Speaker 01

  he was one of those people. Yeah. And I always, I was kind of mesmerizing to watch him do it. So I'm from that, you know? I like the foot stomping, uh, Holy Ghost kind of Yeah. You know, church. Can you play me an example of C J Johnson? Uh, yeah. I don't know this. Yeah, man. I love this kind of music. Me too. So I recorded this from my mom's cassette, actually. So I'm not actually sure if this is C J Johnson, but this is the type. Okay. Cause I don't have the artist's name. It may be Rem C J Johnson, but you'll, you'll get the feel. And this song is called You Better Run To The City.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Oh, you better run, better run, better. Uh-huh, you better.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you better.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Not for the bones, baby, man, he's a man who's in the place to love, he's bold, hard, and dangerous, that that the man who lives in, bold and mad, and said, I'm only gonna believe in my, to be so high, I thought that you better run.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  You better run, you better run, yeah! You better run, you see your face. Yeah! You better run. Well, if you don't believe, you got some say in the right. You can take up your fight, boy. Read it tonight, you can read it. Gentlemen, you will understand the law. He was a holy hand, he lived nice on the bank. Saint, Saint, Saint Henry, that you gonna hit me. Good do time, no matter, you better run. Run, run, run. You better. Run, run, run, run. Yeah!

• 28:57Speaker 02

  You better run, you see your face. Yeah! You better run. Well, some men from the highness scene, oh well, and the good deus. I said, "Ruler of the deus, he came to Jesus. He came by night, he said, "I want to be born into the heaven. This I intend, I broke to Nicodemus, and I had no friends. I don't wanna get to him, and I keep on begging, oh well, oh Nicodemus can understand. I put a man being born when he was so old, but you better run. Run, run, run.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  You better. Run, run, run, run. Oh! You better run, you see your face. Yeah! You better run. Well, God there in Moses and a unknown grave, and a giant surrender. He take him to place and a giant surrender. Finding a bachel, he prayed until the Lord to stop the son. And a stop the son, a gun, and the war, hit him, cocked the way. From at the foot of the hill, he said, "I find to your battle. If you're just a still, I'm there, you better run.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Ah, you better!

• 30:28Speaker 03

  Run, run, run, run, run!

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Yeah! You better!

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Run, run, run, run, run!

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah!

• 30:35Speaker 03

  To the city of Bethlehem!

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Yeah! Well, you read it, but Sam Sunday from his birth he's the strongest man that ever lived on earth. One day, Sam Samuel walked in the long hallway. Sam Samuel's strength, I will never find out, but he lied. You came and sat on his knees and, "Please tell me where your strength might be." He told him, "My strength, 'cause I'm in the half, you'll shame my head just as I clean my hands. My strength will become as natural as man, but you better run!"

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Run, run, run, run!

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Ah, you better!

• 31:20Speaker 03

  Run, run, run, run, run!

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Yeah! You better! Yeah!

• 31:26Speaker 03

  To the city of Bethlehem!

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Come on, let me hear you!

• 31:28Speaker 03

  Run, run, run, run!

• 31:34Speaker 02

  They call this the Holy Ghost Day. Come on!

• 31:40Speaker 02

  Well, Adam was a person and that ain't all. Well, Adam was a person and a broker of the law. Well, Adam was a member of the human race. He disobeyed God and he drove him from his place. You read on down to about the chapter nine, where Mount King Jesus turned water to wine. But you better run!

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Run, run, run, run!

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Ah, you better!

• 32:10Speaker 03

  Run, run, run, run, run!

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Yeah! You better!

• 32:14Speaker 03

  Run, run, run, run, run!

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Oh, you better run!

• 32:27Rick Rubin?

  That's unbelievable.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Oh, man, like that clapping?

• 32:30Rick Rubin?

  Crazy.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  That beat?

• 32:31Rick Rubin?

  Crazy.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Man, oh, my god.

• 32:34Rick Rubin?

  And there's no artifice, there's no performance.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Well, you can tell, like, he almost freestyled.

• 32:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  You can tell he kind of making, he almost like spewing what he knows of the Bible, like, out as like rap verses almost. And you can tell, like, there's no, even like, he ain't counting his bars, like, sometimes they have, and like, you can tell he just, it's free, you know, it's awesome, man.

• 32:57Rick Rubin?

  I love it.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  To me, that's, that clapping though?

• 33:00Rick Rubin?

  That's pure.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Very.

• 33:02Rick Rubin?

  That's pure.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:05Rick Rubin?

  So, two things come to mind when I hear that, and what you've been saying, is that, one, from a young age, you got to experience a music that isn't showbiz, that's not showbiz what we were hearing. That was a deep connection to something.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think when, my mom, like, kept me in the church in that way, around, so I got that spirit look inside, or what, or what it looks like, or how it affected people.

• 33:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  I got to see what that looked like, but at the same time, my mom was the first person that took me to a Fresh Fest concert.

• 33:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  So, I saw LL, I saw Public Enemy, I saw Houdini, all on the same ticket. That was my first, like, rap

• 33:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  concert, and I was, like, blown away, seeing the radio, seeing S1W's do this, you know, this kind of, uh, military kind of thing.

• 33:55Rick Rubin?

  Performance, yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Houdini, they were like funky, they had these leather shorts and leather hats on, it's like, man, they are killing it. So, I, I saw both sides of it, and then, you, I mean, we were in the time of Michael Jackson and Prince, and, uh, New Edition and all that kind of stuff, and Guy, and Ozzy Brothers and all that kind of stuff. So, I, I got both sides, and MTV was huge, so I saw the entertainment, you know, pure entertainment part two.

• 34:20Rick Rubin?

  Also, the fact that you, the first time you hear the flute is after doing holotropic breathing. And holotropic breathing is sort of a psychedelic experience.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:31Rick Rubin?

  It will leave you in an altered state.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 34:34Rick Rubin?

  So you're in this altered state and you hear this sound. If you had not done the breathing, maybe the flute wouldn't have spoke to you in the same way.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Maybe, because you kind of stay there to rest up or just kind of chill out for a minute. I could have got up and left.

• 34:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  And just missed the whole thing.

• 34:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, but it feels related. They feel related.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  I told you, I know it's related. I mean, even me, that one little house in Venice, like, all of it is, is related, you know? And it's funny because I had a trip planned, go to Hawaii, actually, to sit and do ayahuasca. And I got my flute done, my flute came right in time before that trip. So I took my flute on the trip as well. And I think, I think all of that plays into me getting to that place.

• 35:19Rick Rubin?

  Was that the first time you took ayahuasca?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, the very first time.

• 35:23Rick Rubin?

  And tell me about that experience.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  That's where I can describe it as a, just a connecting place where, I mean, you've always heard that, yeah, we're all connected and I'm connected to this, I'm connected to you, I'm connected. But that was the first time, like, you feel it and you know that you're part of just a, a big kind of energy orchestra more than anything. And, you know, we all have our own body instruments that look different, but we're kind of all of a one, one thing.

• 35:52Rick Rubin?

  And you could see it from?

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Uh, not visually, but I could, I could feel it. I didn't get much, many visuals from it.

• 36:00Rick Rubin?

  Would you say you could feel it in a way that you didn't question it, like it was clear?

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And it just totally makes sense when you think about it. And an extreme love and, and acceptance of people that you may have thought were like horrible. You know, and it's kind of like, um, it quickly makes you realize that, ah, they were really trying to do the best, that they made bad choices.

• 36:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, but they were doing their best.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were doing the best at what they could at that time. So you don't hold it too strong and you're kind of like, mm. You know, and that was the first time that I've ever like felt it in that way. Uh, even there's a song on the album called That Night in Hawaii, you know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But, uh, that was actually a real occurrence. There was a point where I started doing this thing called, um, Tony. And I didn't understand, I didn't know what the fuck was going on. But it's kind of like your body is an instrument at that point. And you're basically, it sounds, I know it's gonna sound kooky. But, uh, your, your body's an instrument and you're kind of getting played.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  And so I know I was not making these notes because I didn't even, uh, I was not in my mind frame to even think of notes. I was kind of doing this.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And then it would like kind of alternate, it would go.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Like it was playing me like a, uh, some type of instrument. And, uh. You were not trying to change the notes. No, no, and I had more breath because I'm in my mind as it's happening, I'm listening. And it's funny, like the human part of me is like, damn, I wish I had my phone. Yeah. You know, that's the first thing I thought, I wanted to record it. Of course. But I'm listening to myself make these noises. And at a certain point, I'm like, whoa, I'm still going. Like, I don't have that much breath. Yeah. And then I'll go.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  And do it again. And it's not me. Yeah. You know, it's weird and I asked the shaman about it. So I get at this thing called Tony. Uh, it's for something inside you or something, someone close to you. It's basically like vibrating to move a thing. Uh huh. So it's like, almost like a, um, like a, almost like a shockwave kind of therapy in a way. But you're, you're the shockwave, you're the, the energy center that's making it go. And it was a trip, man, and I just, it felt like a panther. And that's the song on the album. I was trying to, trying to find a way to mimic it, you know? So you start telling the story about the house in Venice. Did you end up moving to the house in Venice? Yes, I ended up moving to the house in Venice. I was only supposed to be there for like six months.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And then I kept renewing, another six months, another six months. Just because life was good there? You felt, you felt at home, would you say? Uh, it felt where I needed to be. It was a very small house. Actually, in the, in the film, I recently released a film called Moving Day. And I actually documented that time. But it just felt nice to be in this small house. I like smaller places, even in Atlanta, I had like a huge, like five room bedroom house. And I would stay in this one little room, you know? It was kind of like, almost like, and it had posters all over the wall. It was kind of like, I just like smaller, smaller places. And it felt great for me to be there. And I ended up meeting Carlos Nino at Air One.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  And when I met Carlos, I was, it's funny, I was actually talking to Mike D. We were in line, checking out, talking to Mike D. And Carlos comes up and he invites us to this event that he's doing that night. And he said, Carlos was like, yeah, man, people were telling me that you were around town playing your flute and that we should meet, you know? And I knew one day I would meet you. I didn't know where it would be or when. And I just felt this was the time. I got this event happening tonight. You should come by, you should bring your flute. So I'm, I'm game and, because he said that's an Alice Coltrane event. And so I was like, oh, nice, all right? And the crazy thing, I was listening to Alice that whole week before I met him. And so.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Isn't it amazing how like? Yeah, the breadcrumbs, man. It all just comes together. It orchestrated how it's supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, even, I mean, it's happened like that all my life. Me too. Yeah. It's amazing. With Big Boy, with Dunch, everything's always been. It just happens. That way, as long as you in a place where you are. Accepting those things too.

• 40:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, your realtor could have said, well, there's this place in Venice. You're like, no, I'm not looking for Venice.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 40:40Rick Rubin?

  But you were open.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:42Rick Rubin?

  It wasn't what you were looking for.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  No, but it was what I needed.

• 40:44Rick Rubin?

  But it was exactly what you needed.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 40:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. So, yeah, it was, uh, after that, uh, I went to the event and Syria Batafesina, keyboard player, he was playing that night with Carlos and Syria's mom was on stage and Syria's mom invited me to come up and play. Now Syria, you know, he was raised on an ashram with Alice, you know, back in the day. So his mom, you know, knew Alice, they were in that world, so she could harpist. And so she had the instinct to invite me up to play. And at that point, I'd never played with anybody. I've always kind of just been walking around playing.

• 41:21Rick Rubin?

  How many years have you been playing at this point?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Maybe two, three years. So, and mind you, mind, mind flute is tuned to 432 hurt. So I knew, like, I'm, I'm not a big like music nerd buff, but I knew that 432 was under 440 and most people are playing at 440.

• 41:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  And so when they invited me up, I, I was, I was like, no, I don't think I'll, I'll come in there. I felt like it would have been a spectacle that's like, oh, Andre 3000 is playing. I know if people want to put their phones up and record me and it's play. So I felt, um, that, that wasn't the place for me to jump on stage and play. The whole night though, as they're playing, I'm in the backpack and I'm playing to myself.

• 42:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  While they're playing.

• 42:07Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  And then after the whole event was over, I stayed to the very end. And then Carlos comes after the event. He was like, um, yeah, man, if you ever want to get together and jam, man, come to my house. And so we went to Carlos's house and I had, uh, first sessions in his garage studio. And we actually recorded that session and we're going to put it out, which is, uh, it's so interesting to hear the playing from that to New Blue Sun, which is so crazy. But yeah, it's kind of like those breadcrumbs just happened and we just kept rocking. And I told Carlos, I was like, hey, man, I,

• 42:44Speaker 01

  I wanna find a way to present this win playing in a broader way. Cause at that point, people had started like filming me at Starbucks or, you know, in the airport. Like, oh, he's carrying his flute around. So it was kinda like a, where's Waldo with his flute kinda thing?

• 43:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  And they would always kinda catch me mid phrase or something. And it was like, oh, man, I wish they would've caught it when it was jamming, you know?

• 43:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  So, um, I was like, I'd like to present, you know, this in a broader way to the public. So I like to record some type of album. And so Carlos was like, yeah, I mean, I know people, you know, that can make it happen, you know? And so we would try out different things to see what works, different players. And then we ended up landing on the four or five people that were the core band on the album.

• 43:35Rick Rubin?

  Tell me some of the things you tried along the way before you got to where you wanted it to be? What was some of the experiments leading up to it?

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Well, it's always funny, like, the idea you have in your mind of who you think you're gonna be or the music you're gonna be, sometimes it's a little off from what it's gonna be. Which is kinda cool, though, because you sometimes get to a greater thing. In my mind, I wanted to do this fully rhythmic, kind of like Steve Reich-ish, kind of trance. And it's still possible. It's, it's, yeah. Yeah, but at that time, I was like, this rhythmic kind of really constructed thing that you can blend and mix with other, like, you could blend it with beats if you wanted to.

• 44:16Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  What started to happen was, I recorded a few of those and I liked it, but it just wasn't what I thought it would be. And we just started doing a free form, like Carlos Nino, he's been recording in this way for a long time, volumes and volumes of music. So I think, uh, me meeting him was a good, kinda like the best place that I could be to, to open to play, you know? Cause really, it's, the community is, we get together, we have an intention, but not a strong kind of like, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this. It's an intention just to make music. Not knowing what it's gonna, like, not calling out keys, not calling, nothing.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  And we go purely free form, and that's how the album was created. And it gave me a chance to. Just play. I'm not a great player, you know? But it gave me a chance to express something and find key moments. And we took it out and played. Like, we toured all of last year, fully free-form. When we hit the stage, we never knew what it would be. You know, which is an awesome, exciting, scary, powerful place to be onstage when there's people. Yeah. That come to see it. How different was the music from night to night? Very different. Depending on the mood. Sometimes, depending on the venue, depending on how we feel as a group,

• 45:46Speaker 01

  as a unit, before we go on sometimes. Like, there was one time where I said, hey, why don't we just start silent completely? And just see how long we can be silent. And we held it for a long time. And we just felt it and go. And it was something powerful. And we would end that way sometimes, too. But sometimes, we were like, let's go 10. So soon as we go, one, two, eh! It was everything that you could throw. So it was like, yeah, just depending on the venue. Sometimes, like, if you're in a big cavernous space, you know, you want to use the echo, so you play less. You kind of, so you can hear it bounce back. But if you're in a tight space, you know, you kind of play more. We were playing festivals at this point, so,

• 46:29Speaker 01

  you know, we may go on like Full Sex or Red or something like. So when you're in a festival situation, you play louder. Because there's nothing bouncing back to you. Yeah. Which is an odd feeling, but, uh... And the audience isn't necessarily there to see you. So it's a different... Oh, yeah, for festivals, yeah. For festivals, it's a different feeling in the crowd. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was some real powerful moments, man. We did Tyler's Flavna. And these were like, you know, these are young kids, man. And they came and, you know, they're saying the best of pop music right now. And then we come out doing this free-form music. Like, they was fucking with it. That's amazing. Yeah, they were like mosh-pitting. Wow!

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a trip, man, like... Wow. Yeah, they were like, because they only gave us 30 minutes. Yeah. And so our 30 minutes was up. And they were like, no, we want more. Like, the crowd was like, let's go. So, yeah, you had, uh, you had great crowds. Yeah, I mean, of course, not all of them are great. So we got some bad, you know, bad write-ups, you know? One writer was like, he didn't even do "Heyo."

• 47:38Speaker 01

  We all laughed at that.

• 47:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, but you weren't doing music for the critics.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 47:43Rick Rubin?

  Honestly, weren't really even doing it for the audience. They got to see it.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were kind of witnessing. And I would say this, like, you know, it's not really a show, but we thank y'all for coming. Like, we're just.

• 47:53Rick Rubin?

  You're jamming.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  We're challenging. More than just, it's not really a jam either, because they are jam bands. It was more of a conjuring.

• 48:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Kind of thing. It's not like you just get a groove and you do. And just go for a long time.

• 48:07Rick Rubin?

  When did you decide, I'm gonna make an album?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  I can't remember the date, but it was, it was after I played in, in, in the garage. And me listening to a lot of records. So I would send Carlos kind of like things I'm into. So I would send him like me playing to Indian rappers. On the pole, because Indian rappers are long. So I can just play on top of them, you know? And they usually stay in the same key, which is always good to play with these flutes that are in a key. You know, they're not changing, so it was always good to play. And I would send stuff like that, or I'd send like a playlist of stuff that I'm into. Then he would send cool stuff back. So just got a mind frame of the type of music that I like. But then we threw it all out the window and recorded free, you know?

• 48:53Speaker 01

  But I think instincts and taste came into play.

• 48:57Rick Rubin?

  I'm sure those, the listening, even if it was different, informed the direction things went.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. I hear, I hear all the people I love and what I'm playing.

• 49:06Rick Rubin?

  Even if it sounds nothing like.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Yes, I hear it. And I know, like, oh, I know I'm doing patterns right now. I know, you know, oh, that sounds cold training, you know? So it's kind of like, yeah, you, you feel it, yeah.

• 49:23Rick Rubin?

  How was the feeling when the album was being released versus your experience of putting out, let's call it, popular music in the past? Making this more esoteric music now. What was your feeling when you were putting it out?

• 49:39Speaker 01

  I was very excited, very excited. But one thing, I'm kind of oblivious to the outside world a lot. Because one thing I failed to realize after I dropped it. You know, the big thing was, oh, man, we wait 17 years and this is what you give us? You know, like, damn. Because for me, I never said, hey, people, wait for this rap out. I never said that, you know? So for me, I was just putting out music. And we did, like, intentionally. We went on a press run to let people know what this was before it came out. So if they didn't get the memo, I'm sorry, they didn't get the memo. Like, some people like, man, he ain't rap at all on it. You know, but I said that there was no rapping.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  So I didn't know what else we could, we could do.

• 50:26Rick Rubin?

  It's also not your problem, honestly.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  No, no, it's not.

• 50:29Rick Rubin?

  You're getting to make the thing you want to make.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  No, the job is done after we've recorded. Exactly. I feel that way. Like, to me, at this point, we just sharing it.

• 50:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  And if you like it or like it or not, I'm cool. Like, I'm totally fine with, you know, with critique. I'm fine with people loving it, not liking it. Because I don't like everybody, even people that I love, artists. I don't like all stuff they do. So I'm totally fine with that, man. Like, I just felt like it was a beautiful thing. And I wanted to share it. And I think for the times, too, it was really important to share. And when you're in the street and people tell you for real how they feel about it, that's when you know. You know, and that's what I loved about it. Like, people were coming up, you know, telling us what they were doing with it. Or, yeah, I had this friend that was depressed that wasn't talking to us. And now they're coming, you know? Or, my friend is on his deathbed, only had two weeks to live, and he's listening to this.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Like, it was like, it was powerful in a whole nother way that I didn't expect. I only knew, oh, man, I think this is beautiful and we want to share it. That's all that matters.

• 51:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:32Rick Rubin?

  That's amazing. And now you're free to create anything you want. Because there now going forward, there won't be any expectation.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  I think there will always be some expectation.

• 51:44Rick Rubin?

  I feel like you're free.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  I know I'm free. But I feel like I'm free, but to everybody else.

• 51:50Rick Rubin?

  Knock the wall down, though.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

• 51:52Rick Rubin?

  With this. It's like, it's a different. You know, like you said, you were a different person than you were when we sat here last.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  I told you feel like a different person.

• 52:00Rick Rubin?

  And when we sat here last, you were playing flute, but you were not on, I'm making an album. It was not like that.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 52:06Rick Rubin?

  It was like you were finding a way to satisfy yourself making music again.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  And I think it should always start that way. Like, I think it should always start from a personal interest and just follow that interest. Like, you never know where it's gonna go. Like, when I started rapping, I didn't know I would start producing. I didn't know I started making beats. I didn't know I started singing. I didn't know I started picking up interest. I didn't know. I'm just following what I'm into, you know, and I think that's, you know, that's my only compass. That's all I got, really.

• 52:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  You know, my own interest.

• 52:41Rick Rubin?

  Do you still play flute wherever you go?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  That's funny. No, I don't. And it's weird because people expect me to do it now, or it's like, almost like a public performance.

• 52:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  And so I almost have to like hide away or find, you know, little caves or little alleyways to play. You know, because before I'd just kind of be playing and they'd be like, oh, this nigga playing the flute, you know? But now it's kind of like, it's a thing now. You know, people expect it. And I don't like it as much for people to be expecting me.

• 53:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Or, you know, trying to film me do it, or, you know?

• 53:19Rick Rubin?

  Because now, in a way, you're a professional flute player. As crazy as it sounds.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess you can say, yeah, I guess if you're getting paid for doing it, it's professional.

• 53:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I'm a sonic explorer, man. That's what I am.

• 53:34Rick Rubin?

  How is performing instrumental music on stage different than other kinds of music?

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Different, completely. Even from how we record in the studio to being on stage, because there's another member in the band, and that's the audience.

• 53:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  You know, so we get hoops and hollers. We get people, we got people singing, like opera while we're doing it. You know, we got people almost getting into fights. While we're doing it, we got people in tears. We got people crying. So it's a whole nother. Remember going on and I think when you have lights and you have a stage and you have people in front of you, they're expecting you to do a thing. And so I do think it charges you up differently than us just around. You know, jamming. So that was a totally different experience.

• 54:21Rick Rubin?

  Do you get nervous before a show?

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, always, always. But I've always kind of, like even back in the day when we had like songs that people knew. Still, there's nerves, which is good, you know, nerves are good.

• 54:35Rick Rubin?

  How was the reaction in different parts of the world, different countries?

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Pretty much across the board, uh, yeah, acceptance across the board.

• 54:45Rick Rubin?

  So beautiful.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  From Japan to Portugal to Australia to London. Yeah, everywhere they accepted it in the street. And what's crazy is what started to happen because because of the music, we got put on a lot of jazz festival gigs. And so we're playing with the best of the best, you know, like the best of the best players. And what I started to notice is players would come backstage after and like give their honest kind of. It was inspiring because it almost like we charged them up to do something like. One player, I won't say his name, and he was like, "Man, I wish I would have been doing this kind of thing six months ago."

• 55:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, because I think.

• 55:28Rick Rubin?

  You gave them permission to be free.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I think what people loved most about it was the freeness.

• 55:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  The freedom and it's almost like, um, yeah, like a rally for it, a rally, a rally for freedom. And I think people responded mostly in that way.

• 55:45Rick Rubin?

  Last time we spoke, you said you were judgmental of yourself.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:49Rick Rubin?

  Do you still feel the same or it's better? Same?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Uh, it's, it's, it's still the same. It's still the same. But I think I understand more when I'm doing it and I just try to move past the moment, breathe, take a deep breath. You know, relax my shoulders and move past the moment, man. I mean, I think, I don't think it's bad to be judgmental in certain ways because we are.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  I think judging things is is part of our survival. Like even when you walk, you judge how far you're gonna step. And you have to assess what's going on. We have brains to assess. So I think there's nothing wrong with it until it gets to a negative place, you know? And I think you just gotta pay attention because sometimes you need it. Sometimes you're like, if if there's a threat around you, like, you know, you know, I've been somewhere on some street corners and you're like, okay, something don't feel right. That's because you know, you know, and that's all a part of it. You are you are analyzing, assessing every moment of what's happening. When you're doing it to yourself, sometimes maybe it is something you should look at. But sometimes it's bullshit, you know?

• 56:58Rick Rubin?

  When you're playing in an improvisational way, which you do, how much of it is playing versus listening?

• 57:08Speaker 01

  It's kind of, I wouldn't even say fifty fifty, maybe seventy listening.

• 57:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  Uh, because you kind of got to, now again, you're assessing what's happening. You know, to feel where to where are you gonna sit? You know, how do you enhance this moment? Or how do you sit back? How do you not say anything?

• 57:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  So you you have to listen. And because I'm not a trained musician, if you see the performance that I have this blanket down on the floor and I have maybe thirty flutes. And because I don't know keys, I don't know, like, I'm not trained in that way. Sometimes you'll see me down on the floor auditioning them in a way.

• 57:49Rick Rubin?

  To see what's gonna sound good?

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. Yeah, so if if Siri is playing a thing or if the Anthony is playing a thing that has note, I kind of play this, oh, nah, that don't sound good. Pick this one up. Yeah, this is the one. And you go in, you know, so it's kind of like you're listening the whole time. And it's harder for me because I didn't go to music school to know, oh, they're in the key of blah, blah, blah, you know. So it's all, it's all.

• 58:19Rick Rubin?

  Just feel.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  It's all feel, ear and physicality to me. Like a lot of times I play, like sometimes like I watch some of my favorite guitar players, like they're physical. That makes a certain sound. And so I try to play in that way. The way you move your fingers rhythmically. I'm almost trying to wrangle something or wheel something to happen.

• 58:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  You know, so a lot of times is I look at it like it's not jazz. What I'm doing is it's almost like impressions. Like if you were looking at art and you're looking at figurative art and it's where you see an actual thing, a body or whatever. It's almost like I'm doing an abstract version of it, like just an impression of something. You know, so the notes will be right or wrong sometimes, but you're gonna feel it. And it's gonna create something that creates feeling, you know. So I look at it in that way.

• 59:16Rick Rubin?

  It sounds pure in that way, like it in some ways, the lack of understanding gets you to a pure place of feeling. Cause there's no math involved.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:31Rick Rubin?

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:32Rick Rubin?

  It really is. You are with this thing that's happening and it's real. And it's in this moment.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 59:40Rick Rubin?

  That moment will likely not happen again.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  It won't. There's no, even if we try, there's no way. When we first started touring, because we created the album Free Form. When we first started touring, we would try to play the numbers.

• 59:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, the songs from the album.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Because now I know some of the melodies, I can kind of go back to them. That was okay for a while. But if it felt restrictive in a way.

• 1:00:04Rick Rubin?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Because to me.

• 1:00:05Rick Rubin?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  I mean, we rocked it, but it felt restrictive because it was almost like I was trying to do a thing.

• 1:00:12Rick Rubin?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Which is different from just doing.

• 1:00:14Rick Rubin?

  Doing a thing.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And like the wheels are off when you're just doing the thing. So we moved quickly into every show just being free form. Just like we made the album. It was just more authentic. And sometimes we may go back.

• 1:00:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  To one number, you know? But it would be a crazy rendition of that song. It wasn't like, you know, even like a jazz band, they'll do a version of their song. It's pretty much the same, but of course they're stretching it out in a certain way.

• 1:00:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, this would be, yeah, this would be an impression of an impression of an impression.

• 1:00:50Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. How many shows did you do about?

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  A running joke, we did like a hundred, hundred twenty.

• 1:00:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Would you say over the course of those shows, you got better at doing it?

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Uh, I got better at not knowing what I'm doing. I got more confidence and having confidence that I don't know what I'm doing.

• 1:01:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. And liking the results.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 1:01:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Yes. There were times where we would like get off stage and man, we would just hug up and be like, man, I don't know what just happened. But that shit was awesome.

• 1:01:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  You know, and you can't get it back.

• 1:01:24Rick Rubin?

  Best.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. So here's the thing, like I've made music all my life since I was like seventeen. I've made songs, I've written choruses, I've made beats like that people know when I go out to do it. And that's a great reward when a whole crowd is singing your verse or the whole crowd is singing the chorus. There's a whole nother reward when you don't know what's about to happen.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  And sun shines in and it's like, so we're all witnessing it at the same time.

• 1:01:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  That's a whole nother type of reward.

• 1:01:54Rick Rubin?

  Well, you're participating together in a miracle.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:57Rick Rubin?

  Is the difference.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, we all, it's almost like five people on one tight rope.

• 1:02:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Rick Rubin?

  And it's just happening.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:05Rick Rubin?

  And it's almost like you're falling off, but you don't fall off. And it's like.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Even if you fall off, like somebody may throw an arm out and you dangling for a while, then they pull you back up. And just, just the pull up is beautiful to see. Whoa, whoa. You know, so yeah, it's all. Yeah, I can't, I can't explain it, man. I'm so happy that I was put in a position to be able to, to do it in this way, you know? Yeah. Do you imagine doing another album in this direction? Oh, man, we have so much music. Yeah. So stay tuned. Like, so here's the thing, we record everything. Oh, good. Even like our sound checks. Yeah. Oh, man, sometimes, sometimes our sound checks were crazy and they, and just the sound check. Yeah. And so, uh, we record sound checks, we record every performance. Great.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  And, but then, even before we hit the road, we almost recorded a whole two albums before we even put out New Blue Sun. Yeah. So, yeah, there's, um, there's a lot of music coming. I, I think my eyes right now are set on scoring film. Nice. With it, cause it, it is something filmic about it. There's something orchestral even, even though we may not be playing orchestral instruments, we could totally score a movie live. Or someone write a movie to our pieces. Yeah. You know, and so I'm putting that out there. Yeah. That it'll, it'll happen. When you hear the pieces, does imagery come up for you? Do you see things when you're listening? It depends on where I am at the moment.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Not necessarily where this made me think of a thing, but if I'm already in a zone, can bring up thoughts. Tell me about the image on the cover of the album. Okay, so when we were talking about Venice, we were talking about that little house. That was a steal from the film called Moving Day. And I was just in my backyard, uh, with my flute. Dexter Navy, director. I met him at a juice bar. And Dexter was like, hey, man, I, I wanna just come film you do something. And, uh, we happened to be moving this one day, the last day in this little house. And so I was like, Dexter, come through, you know, with your cameras or whatever. We're just, we'll shoot something.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Dexter came through and, uh, we walked around Venice a little bit, walked around the house and went in the backyard and he was filming me. And that was just a steal from me being in the backyard playing flute. So that's the, uh, album cover image. Cool. But it's cra- like honestly, uh, flute playing. Yeah. Like, when you talk about like Michael Jordan's of a thing, like my hero. Yeah. Is an Indian flute player. Charasia. Oh, my God. Let's listen to something. Yeah, so this is a duet performance between Shiv Kumar Sharma and Harith Pasar Charasia.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  And sometimes like I'll sit on YouTube and I'll just watch this because they've recorded this performance live. It's so beautiful to watch. And he's, man, he's the best to me, like. Oh, man, I got, let me just shut up. Yeah. Play this shit.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, the whole album is called The Valley recalls.

• 1:14:20Rick Rubin?

  What is that string instrument that sounds so plucky?

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  It's, um...

• 1:14:24Rick Rubin?

  Is it played with mallets?

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  It's almost like a zither. Yeah, like a zither type of instrument. And it's played with like these little wooden sticks. And to get a long note, you just let it bounce. For a...

• 1:14:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. So percussive.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it is.

• 1:14:38Rick Rubin?

  Wildly percussive.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:41Rick Rubin?

  Do you listen to a lot of instrumental music?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, more so now than ever, I think. Because it gives you space for like your own thoughts. You know, because sometimes you can just kind of get so caught up in the lyrics. Sometimes they're great lyrics.

• 1:14:57Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  But some like instrumental music is like just move score. Like score for whatever you going through. You know, and I really did that a lot.

• 1:15:09Rick Rubin?

  How do you describe the energy you feel in music?

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  When I was heavy into religion, I felt it was religious in a way.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  I remember times when I first started producing, I'd be in my studio and I'd just finish a beat. And I'm by myself, so I'm like in my drawers, you know, playing a beat. And it like, it'll be so moving to me. I remember standing up on a chair and just like, ah, like, standing up on the chair, like feeling like there is a God or there's something, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Cause it's an energy in it. It wasn't that you were great, it's that it was great. Yeah, that there's something moving. I know, I'm just kind of dealing with things, you know, moving them around. Yeah. Cause there's energy in it and it's infectious too.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  I remember there's times when we were mixing The Love Below, the mix engineer Neil Poe. We were both at the mixing board finishing up a mix, doing something. We were listening back to a song and I remember both of us just sitting there at the board in tears, like tears. Like as we're mixing this fucking song, I'm like, whoa, something is happening, you know? And it's that powerful, like, and that's what I'm going for. Like I always like, I'm trying to go for the feel. Yeah. Like, what does it make you feel? I think I was a really emotional kid too. So when I heard music as a child, like those were, and it hit me in a way that got me emotional.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Even from someone else's story, like even I'm, I remember when I first heard Fast Car from Tracy Chapman. There's a line where she says, um, she had to drop out of school to take care of her drunk dad. And I remember as a kid, like, wow, and I felt it, like. Yeah. She's storyteller. Heavy. You know, like. Heavy. And then the story comes around, you know, her mom left because her dad wasn't living up to what she thought it would be. She wanted more than life than he could give, you know? But she's like, I'm the daughter, so somebody's got to take care of him. Oh, that's what it was. So somebody's got to take care of him. So I quit school. That's what I did.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  And that hit me so hard, I was like, oh, so you can, you can tell like real emotion, like you can tell stuff that's happening in this music and that's, I've always strived to uh, to get some realness, you know? Cause I want people to feel it the same way I felt it.

• 1:17:49Rick Rubin?

  Do you feel like there's something about the music that's biographical?

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, biographical and mirror like to other people, you know? Like especially as a rapper, I always respected it when I felt like I was hearing something from a rapper that was them. That's one thing I always respected about rap music and punk music and rock and roll, like there was a certain rawness that I liked that I always responded to. That kind of slice of real life, no matter how good or bad it is. It was powerful.

• 1:18:26Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about your spiritual life.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  I don't have much of a spiritual life, to be honest. When I was younger, I did, I was heavy, you know, heavy into the church. I think I was uh, just raised that way. Yeah, I'm not so much now.

• 1:18:39Rick Rubin?

  Where did the song titles come from?

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Some were, there's thoughts I had laying around. Some were me trying to, almost try to break up the expectation of this type of music. I think a lot of people feel like, you know, if you play flute or you know, you're into this type of world, like uh, that you're not a full human, that you may not curse, that you may not have sex or, you know, so I'm trying to like bring some humanness to it too. So in the titles, it was almost like I was trying to even it out in a way.

• 1:19:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Cause I knew people would take it in a heavy

• 1:19:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  way. So I was trying to sometimes be comical with the titles. Sometimes express things. Because I knew I, there was no lyrics. So that was the only place I had to.

• 1:19:24Rick Rubin?

  You could say anything.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Yep, yep. When we would do these free form recordings, um, We were recording so fast that sometimes we were just naming them places. And even the first song used to be called "Beyond the Pharaohs." And that's because as soon as we finished playing it and went into the control room to listen, I was like, "Man, I can't wait till Pharaoh Sanders hears this." You know?

• 1:19:50Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  And he ended up passing away before the album could come out. Yeah, like sometimes the songs are just quick thoughts.

• 1:20:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  One song used to be called "All Occasions." "All Occasions" ended up being the slang word pussy. But when we first played it and listened back to it, it's like, "Man, you can do anything, so this song works for all occasions. You can be a romantic moment or, you know." So, you know, sometimes it's it's just a quick kind of placer. But I felt like I knew people would read the title, so that was the only place that I had to say something, you know?

• 1:20:33Rick Rubin?

  How do you think breath instruments are different than other instruments?

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  The reason why I was attracted to breath instruments is because it's the only instrument besides the human voice where you're actually hearing the human. With a piano, your finger hits a key, key hits a hammer, hammer hits a string, then you hear the sound. Guitar, your pick hits a string or your finger hits a string, reverberates. So it's something in between the human. With flute playing and wind, you're actually hearing the wind of a human.

• 1:21:06Rick Rubin?

  And if you stop blowing, the sound stops?

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:21:08Rick Rubin?

  Whereas you can hit a guitar chord, it'll keep ringing after you've hit it.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  Yep. So you're hearing the breath of like, the breath of life in an instrument. It's the closest thing to singing, you know? That's why, like, when we were just listening to Tracy, like, to me, he plays like Indian singing. Like, he's so skillful with how to go in between notes and even like,

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  I'm doing a horrible job of it, but he plays in that way like the the way they practice singing. You know, and I think it's dope when you can mimic that. And even like you think of like saxophone and vibrato is to mimic a singer. You know, like that was to kind of mimic what's singing. And a lot of saxophone players early on, they were kind of playing in a style of the Kroners. You know, so they're already mimicking human voice with the flute. You're actually hearing that when.

• 1:22:11Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about going around the world, going to antique stores, going to music stores, finding old instruments. Tell me about some of the characters you've come across.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Well, there's one favorite store that we we go to in in the Bay. It's called Lark in the Morning. It's like this odd instrument store that has all these kind of odd instruments. And we're always so excited when we go to the Bay because like, ah, we're going to Lark in the Morning. And we all get in the van and go check out what they have new because they just got instruments from all over the world, you know? Some instruments in there are made by made by musicians that are just trying to make new instruments. So there's actually kind of like a mallet instrument that's kind of like a xylophone that I play on stage that I bought from there. It's kind of like this this xylophone that's in a key. So there are no bad notes on it.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  You know, it's almost kind of like a pandrum in a way, but I get flutes all the time at shows. People will come and hand me some of their handmade flutes. Yeah, at this point, I have so many flutes, whistles and shakers.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get I get a lot of instruments, yeah.

• 1:23:22Rick Rubin?

  I just remember anytime I would go to any like collectors of anything, they were always the most interesting people.

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Well, we go to a lot of flea markets and a lot of people there are very interesting because they just sit and collect things and they're experts at it. And they'll tell you about it, you know, and it's just good to hear their stories.

• 1:23:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. How does the place you're in impact the playing?

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  A lot, especially the actual room, the environment. Sonically or what you see? Both, both. Sometimes it's just the, the energy of a crowd can make you play away like. Sometimes like I, I may have been agitated at something. And I'll play like an angry bird, like not the game, but I'll play like. Yeah, I just kinda trying to play through it in a certain way because there's some.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Some staleness happening in the room and you know, you're trying to shake it up.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  What are some of your favorite places on the planet? Japan, of, of course, Japan is one of my favorite places. Tokyo or Kyoto or other parts? Kyoto, I love Tokyo as well, Osaka. You have been to the art island? Oh man, you gotta check it out. Kind of get on this barge and go out to this island that they dedicated just. For artists like so there's museums there. Sounds great. No, you gotta check it out. I will.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Amsterdam is a new favorite place. I like Amsterdam a lot. I think. There's something about the art and fashion that is, is killer to me. Mexico City, I like. Hawaii, I like.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Florence was one of my favorite places. Back in two thousand eight, when I was working on Benjamin Bixby, the clothing line. I spent a lot of time in Florence and Hong Kong. And actually I like Hong Kong as well, but uh, yeah Florence, man, like. The colors, the food, like I was amazed, like they'll have like a. You may just see a door open and you'll see people going in and you'll walk in. And it'll be a restaurant, but they won't have like a menu. Sign or anything. Yeah, no sign, no menu. This is like, this is what we're making today. Yeah. And if you want some, cool. Yeah. And you go in and it's the best food you ever had, like, but it's uh, it's free, man. I love it. And it's not, the food is not free, you gotta pay for it.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  What I'm saying is, it's a free way of, of thinking, like saying, well, this is what we're offering today. Yeah, it's like going to someone's house for dinner, really. Exactly, exactly, exactly. I love Florence, that's my favorite. Yeah. It's the only city I could ever imagine living in. I don't like cities. Yeah. But I like Florence. Okay, alright, that's a, that's a good way to think. Yeah. Tell me about music that comes from plants. Carlos Nino, sometimes like depending on the city.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  He always likes to go and grab a fallen branch from wherever we are of leaves or something. And so in his arsenal, he just has like the stuff, you know? And so plants are actually on the record. So they're just different plants. And depending on what region we're in, you know, he'll go out and find it and he'll bring it in and shake on it. And it'll be awesome.

• 1:26:43Rick Rubin?

  Before you started the album, did you make any rules about what you would and wouldn't use or do? Were there any like, we're not going to use any of these kind of instruments or only this parameter?

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  That's funny, because when we first started, like the only like, like rule, not even a rule. Only intention was I want to transport people from wherever they are. And everybody, oh, yeah, we got that. That's easy, you know? But one thing we quickly found, even though I love saxophone, I quickly found that as soon as I hear saxophone, it pulls me to jazz.

• 1:27:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  And so we made the decision to, because we recorded some great songs with saxophone on them for some of the sessions for this album. But I didn't necessarily want it to sit in the jazz mode. I wanted to be more experimental. And so at a certain point, I was like, Los Man. Man, yeah, I don't know if I want any saxophone.

• 1:27:42Rick Rubin?

  That's a real specific choice.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Rick Rubin?

  Because it really does change it.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:45Rick Rubin?

  Because saxophone does say jazz.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Depending on how you play it, you know?

• 1:27:50Rick Rubin?

  It's true. Unless it doesn't sound like saxophone, which is possible.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah. And I love jazz, but it's kind of like, I think for what we were going for, I didn't want it to sit in the jazz band, even though there are jazz fans that come to what we're doing.

• 1:28:05Rick Rubin?

  But it makes it too on the nose. It's like too strong a label to put on it.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:10Rick Rubin?

  Like a limitation.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:14Rick Rubin?

  Have you ever worked in any physical media, paint, ceramics, anything like that?

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure, all of them. Actually, before even rapping as a child, since I was a very little child, I always would draw and paint, make things, build things. And even now, as I get older, I'd see me doing it more. Yeah, even for like during the OutKast times, I would draw things on the CD. And since I've been living in Cali, I started going to Cal State. And doing ceramics at Cal State. So there are sculptures that I've done that you'll see at some point. Painting is huge for me right now. I draw, I keep a sketchbook with me, I draw all the time. Because it's, to me, it's the best way to pitch an idea or tell you something.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  Because sometimes, like, words, the interpretation is just too vast. So if I can show you a picture or a drawing of what I'm talking about, your brain connects to it easier than me saying it. Because like, if I say, "Yeah, man, I want this cool shirt." Cool can mean a lot of things. A shirt can mean a lot of things to different things, to different. But if I draw it, oh, you, oh, your, your brain is right there, at least closest to what I'm saying. Yeah. How did you get the name 3000? 3000 came around 1999, right during the Y2K scare. And I was like, "Man, let's think ahead." So 3000 is the year 3000.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  We're going to 2000. Yeah. I was like, "Nah, 3000." So it was like Andre 3000. And then it just became kind of like an adjective or like a moniker. So if I was in the studio and I'm in the control room working on some, like, a beat or some music, and my homies would pop their head in, depending on what type of music I was making, they'll say, if it was out there, they'd be like, "Oh, that's that 3000 shit." You know what I mean? And then they'll close the door and then go back out, you know what I mean? Like, if it was wild or, or like pushing it, you know, that was that 3000. So it became a, yeah, like an adjective for like next. Yeah. You know, pushing it. I would say the flute album is 3000. Oh, man, I hope.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  It's funny you say that too, because I was wondering, should I even call it Andre 3000? Yeah. Because, because now, in retrospect, and I, and I think I'm, I'm happy about the decision because... In retrospect, I was like, well, if we just called it just the New Blue Sun Band.

• 1:30:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, name of the project.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that was just it.

• 1:30:50Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  I think it would have had a different life.

• 1:30:52Rick Rubin?

  I think so, too.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  And I think what was important was the trajectory of this person from where I'm from to doing what I'm doing. I think that's all a part of the journey, all a part of the music. So I'm glad it was an Andre 3000 album.

• 1:31:08Rick Rubin?

  Me, too.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  At the end, you know.

• 1:31:09Rick Rubin?

  Me, too.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Because it actually turned a lot of people on to it. And what crazy thing, like, I had, like, T.I., had Jeez and them coming to the shows. Like, I was, like, I was just happy that people were coming to check it out, in a way. That probably wouldn't have never checked out.

• 1:31:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  This kind of thing, you know.

• 1:31:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  So I think, I think it was a good bridge. I'm all, I love bridges, you know, I love things that connect things, so. I think OutKast was a, was a, was a nice bridge for a lot of people.

• 1:31:35Rick Rubin?

  Can you think of any other artist who was known so specifically for doing something and did some things as different as you've done?

• 1:31:48Rick Rubin?

  Successfully, that's another part of it, because you've done it successfully.

• 1:31:54Rick Rubin?

  It's hard, right?

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't, I can't really think. And not just music, in anything.

• 1:32:00Rick Rubin?

  In anything.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:05Rick Rubin?

  It's interesting, right?

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:07Rick Rubin?

  If there is anyone, it's a short list, if it exists, but I can't come up with any examples.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  Well, Mohammed Boots, from The Cool, made music, you know, in the 90s up to 2000s, and then started directing films. Films are awesome. Successful, so, yeah, that's, that's another major change. Yeah.

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

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• 1:33:10Speaker 04

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• 1:33:15Speaker 04

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• 1:33:57Speaker 04

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