You are Vocal on the Criticism But Silent on the Compliments

She feels abandoned by him, he feels choked by her, and their marriage is at a tipping point. They are a couple so focused on their kids that they have lost their connection and their sense of self. Despite creating a life story where family is the center of everything, they feel completely alone. Can Esther help them write a new story? Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So, since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Mucchio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands, deep tech that changes the weather.

• 1:28Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  We've got hardware that helps blind people see and dairy.

• 1:35Speaker 04

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 1:47Speaker 05

  We have times where I feel like we're the happiest. I'm so in love with him. We have like four weeks where I'm like on cloud nine after 16 years. And then something happens like with his family. The second I say anything, he turns into like completely different person, cold, super like awful. And then I want to definitely leave and I feel like I'm in the worst marriage and I feel like it's probably not even fixable.

• 2:18Speaker 06

  When we do argue, I shut down. And I would just kind of like not be close to her for like days and days. Just because I feel so angry. And I just hold it all in. We've kind of adapted to being just very focused around the family and raising our kids. And we lost a lot of that touch with who we are as individuals. But I feel like I'm completely by myself in a way, just doing the best that I can for my family.

• 2:48Esther Perel?

  They have both been the responsible child. Him to a large family as the golden boy. And her to a very small family, growing up under communism in Eastern Europe, but where she had to be responsible for herself alone and her brother. They've been together for 16 years and they really carved out a course for themselves on their own. But they're really at the tipping point. Before they come in, she filed for divorce. Each of them basically describes how they're feeling too alone. She feels abandoned by him, he feels choked by her.

• 3:28Esther Perel?

  I have read the intake and I can see the pages of problems that they are wanting to present to us and the stories that accompany those problems. And I decided it's time to start very differently. So here we go.

• 3:49Esther Perel?

  Tell me, what are the strengths of your relationship?

• 3:53Speaker 08

  I think a strength is that we've been together all of these years and we spend a lot of time together. Like we hardly have lives outside of our marriage where we're just like individuals, very independent. We do everything together and we spend a lot of time together.

• 4:08Esther Perel?

  By choice?

• 4:09Speaker 08

  By choice.

• 4:10Esther Perel?

  By mutual choice?

• 4:11Speaker 08

  By mutual choice. And that could be a strength and that could also be a source of some of the other issues. And within that, we share the same values for our kids. And our kids are very central to us. As soon as they came into our lives, everything that we do is with them in mind. To the point where... It creates a lot of blind spots for us in terms of like taking care of ourselves and of our relationship to each other. And so our kids are homeschooled. We spend so much time with them. And so from my perspective, what I feel is missing the most from my life is us having one-on-one time where we go out on dates or we do stuff, just us.

• 4:49Speaker 09

  We don't have really support around us because, you know, we lived in London, Sweden, like everywhere we go, we do everything alone. I know people leave kids alone, like maybe earlier than we do. But for us, I felt like it was better to a little bit wait, but the pressure of us doing everything constantly alone without a support. There's a year which goes by, we don't have a date.

• 5:11Speaker 08

  Yeah, easily. And so I've.

• 5:13Speaker 09

  Like easily to.

• 5:14Speaker 08

  So I brought up a strength and I'm also kind of drawing out what comes with that as well. Like she's also very good at running the home. She's a stay-at-home mom and so she's running the house often. And sometimes when there's opportunities to do things, I feel like she can make excuses to kind of like not pursue certain. For example, like I might have a trip coming up where we can go to Mexico as a couple. And I'm like, that's gonna be great. And that might be coming from work. But she's saying like, no, you should go with our son instead and you guys have a good time because I need to take care of the dog and.

• 5:46Speaker 09

  And the other kids.

• 5:48Speaker 08

  So that's the pattern that we've had for years now.

• 5:51Esther Perel?

  The pattern being, I reach out and I suggest opportunities for us to connect just you and me. And you, in your very responsible fashion, find explanations for why this cannot be.

• 6:09Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 6:11Esther Perel?

  What you just are highlighting here are what happens when you reach out with a bid for connection? Let's go do this, let's do that. Something that is a statement that pertains to the two of you. Give me an example of one when it was received well.

• 6:33Speaker 08

  She came to my work holiday party.

• 6:36Speaker 09

  Mm hmm.

• 6:36Speaker 08

  So the two of us were able to do that. It took a lot of figuring out, but I think you had a good time, right?

• 6:44Speaker 09

  I had a good time, yeah.

• 6:46Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. Can you say this out loud?

• 6:51Esther Perel?

  I had a good time, that's all.

• 6:54Speaker 09

  I mean, it wasn't, it wouldn't be my choice of a date, but yes.

• 6:57Esther Perel?

  I had a good time.

• 6:58Speaker 09

  I had a good time.

• 6:59Esther Perel?

  And here's the piece. I appreciate that you pushed for it.

• 7:06Speaker 09

  That's true, I appreciate that you pushed for it.

• 7:09Esther Perel?

  It's these connective tissues that are missing at this moment. Even when something good happens, it demands that you actually state something good has happened. Because you've become very accustomed at telling each other whatever has not happened. You're very voluble on the criticism.

• 7:40Esther Perel?

  And quite famished on the appreciations.

• 7:46Speaker 08

  Yes, I feel like that foundation needs to be there where we have a connection beyond our family unit as a couple. And that that would address a lot of the things where I might be failing as a partner.

• 8:00Speaker 09

  I just, literally, I sit here and it just came over me that I am like a hundred percent opposite of what my pa- my parents would be thousand percent opposite. My mother would go out to every single event at her work. They would go out as much as they could. We were alone. I remember the first time I was taking care of my brother since I was like, we did daily groceries at the age of seven. We did entire summers of manual labor, where growing up food, you know, it's communist country, so if you wanna have different food, you gotta figure out how to grow it.

• 8:34Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 09

  And uh, my mother just is extremely social person and workaholic. So when you combine the social life with working nonstop. You know, and then I hated it to be alone with my brother that much, for sure. And I think I was like ten when they took her first time for a weekend. And for three days, and I didn't think we were ready to like live by ourselves like that. So I'm now thinking, I almost made it like my mission to not do the mistakes my parents made with us. I just wanna make sure all the creatures in my care feel so loved and taken care of.

• 9:11Esther Perel?

  I am going to invite you into another way of looking at this.

• 9:18Esther Perel?

  You made a choice to do the exact opposite, but you're doing it with the same energy.

• 9:28Speaker 09

  Like what they do?

• 9:29Esther Perel?

  Yeah. She had all the explanations for why she couldn't be home, and you have all the explanations for why you can't leave home.

• 9:38Speaker 09

  That's very true. I know.

• 9:42Esther Perel?

  If you look at a choice, then it's different. But if you look at a way, it's unbelievable how you set out to outdo your mother.

• 9:55Esther Perel?

  And that began to feel to me like it's the dominant thread of your life. Is I'm going to do it better than you, Mom. I'm not working outside the house, I'm not gone all the time, I'm glued.

• 10:11Esther Perel?

  I'm glued because I missed out on love. And when we feel abandoned, our coping mechanism is to glue people to us.

• 10:24Esther Perel?

  But the energy, I would almost say the rigidity with which you're doing it, which is why he gets all the explanations for why no.

• 10:38Esther Perel?

  Is I have a feeling remarkably similar to her. And my goal, or our goal, would be to give you the permission to finally be really different.

• 10:52Speaker 09

  Oh my God, I would love that. I hundred percent agree with what you said. I really think I'm doing different thing with the same energy.

• 11:07Esther Perel?

  I'm listening to the boldness with which I instantly, within 10 minutes of the session, addressed with her the certitude of her story. But it is exactly because she was so convinced that she's doing differently, that what was so obvious was how similar it actually was. Indeed, mom was always gone and she would never go anywhere. But the fervor, the conviction, the non-negotiable stance that was invested in this was actually really one and the same. And here's this crucial moment of the session. She could have looked at me and said,

• 11:52Esther Perel?

  "What are you talking about?" And I would have had to completely step back and first create an alliance with her. But what happened is that it landed so strongly that the alliance was created through the intervention. And from that moment, I felt that she trusted me, that I could say things. And I hear how stuck she is in her story, in this narrative. I heard it also in the intake interview. Same words, same story. And so those are the moments when I go back to one of the first things I said when I started the podcast, which was when a couple comes to see me,

• 12:37Esther Perel?

  they come in with a story. And the goal of at least the first session is for them to leave with a different story. And with her, it just went very, very, very fast. From that moment on, the door had opened.

• 12:55Speaker 09

  Before we move forward, do you want, I just wanted to very quickly touch upon what I think is great about us, because I feel like I didn't have a goal. Well, first of all, our mothers adore each other, which that alone is like such a, no, that is like directly about our relationship. But the fact that my mom absolutely loves his mom, you know what I mean? I think that's very right in like in laws. But with us, so we, when I met him, like originally.

• 13:20Esther Perel?

  He's right here.

• 13:21Speaker 09

  And I think, I felt like I've never met anybody like him before.

• 13:24Esther Perel?

  You, just talk to him in the second person.

• 13:28Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 13:32Speaker 09

  Like I saw his, you know, I always think like our hands are very special on people and like I saw his hands and I saw him working and I saw him like.

• 13:39Esther Perel?

  Stop, stop.

• 13:41Speaker 09

  Okay, okay.

• 13:42Esther Perel?

  Tell. Here's the. Yes, it's much harder. It's much harder.

• 13:48Speaker 09

  So I should tell him as like I'm telling him right now.

• 13:50Esther Perel?

  That's correct. Yes.

• 13:52Speaker 09

  I'd rather birth a third baby, but let me just.

• 13:58Esther Perel?

  He's about to say nice things, you know, there's not much really to be worried about. But look what happens when we've gotten so into the criticism and the negative feedback all the time.

• 14:07Speaker 09

  I know.

• 14:08Esther Perel?

  How suddenly it becomes the most vulnerable thing to say something nice. But I love the fact that you said, I do wanna first say something that I also value.

• 14:18Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 14:18Esther Perel?

  Cause we had left it out and it was really the right step.

• 14:23Speaker 09

  Thank you, thank you. So I love our sex and you know that. I don't know if he loves it as much as I do, but um. You know, I love you so much and. You know, my favorite part is when we're at home because. I feel very special and it makes me feel really good at home. When you're not influenced of anything outside, like your family or other people or the social norms.

• 14:50Speaker 09

  You see me for truly who I am and I think that's why we have such a good sex life. I know.

• 14:55Speaker 08

  And how do you see me in the way I am at home versus the way I'm outside of the home?

• 15:00Speaker 09

  Well, you know that drastically different.

• 15:02Speaker 08

  That's why I'm asking and cause that's something.

• 15:04Speaker 09

  But that's not a strong point now. We're highlighting the good things. This is the bad stuff.

• 15:09Speaker 08

  But you love me being at home so much because of the way you are and also because of the way I am at home?

• 15:15Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 08

  Versus the way I am outside of the home?

• 15:17Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 08

  That also plays into it, right?

• 15:21Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 15:23Speaker 08

  Which it's worth chatting about as well at some point.

• 15:26Speaker 09

  Well, yeah.

• 15:27Esther Perel?

  Try something else.

• 15:31Esther Perel?

  Shall we?

• 15:32Speaker 08

  Sure.

• 15:33Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 15:36Esther Perel?

  If somebody says, "Your soup was delicious."

• 15:41Esther Perel?

  "I love your soup."

• 15:44Esther Perel?

  What do you think is a better response? "Thank you, I enjoy hearing that." Or, "But you don't like my apple pie."

• 15:55Speaker 08

  That's true. That's a good point.

• 15:57Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 15:59Speaker 08

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:00Esther Perel?

  I know you are eager, but nothing will change if you can't re-establish

• 16:10Esther Perel?

  that more tender, kind,

• 16:14Esther Perel?

  appreciative part of the relationship. And not just about the unit. And she was talking about you.

• 16:25Esther Perel?

  She actually was not talking about the family.

• 16:27Speaker 08

  That's right.

• 16:28Esther Perel?

  But I don't even know if you could hear it.

• 16:34Esther Perel?

  So, we'll do it again.

• 16:37Speaker 09

  You want me to keep going, saying good things?

• 16:39Esther Perel?

  Hmm, hmm. Whatever else you wanted to say. And you can do it face to face, or you can whisper.

• 16:44Speaker 09

  I mean, the easiest for me would be me telling you.

• 16:47Esther Perel?

  No.

• 16:48Speaker 09

  Why?

• 16:48Esther Perel?

  Because, what, for what?

• 16:51Speaker 09

  Because it's the easiest.

• 16:52Esther Perel?

  I know it. It's easy to say things to me, but it doesn't really change the dynamic between the two of you. Just practice it.

• 17:01Speaker 09

  Okay. You know, I love how you are with the boys. Of course, I think you're the best dad.

• 17:09Speaker 08

  Thank you, honey.

• 17:10Speaker 09

  In some ways. When you, as far as your interaction with them. Of course, I think you could spend more time with them when you come back. Oh my God, now we're doing the same thing. Um.

• 17:20Esther Perel?

  Excellent.

• 17:21Speaker 09

  I caught myself. You see that?

• 17:23Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes. That filter is essential. Perfect editing.

• 17:28Speaker 09

  Thank you.

• 17:32Esther Perel?

  She heard what I had said to him and she caught it when she did it herself. Basically, it had come to a place where they couldn't say one positive statement that wasn't qualified and that didn't have a "but" in there. And when there is a "but", we tend to hear the second part of the sentence more than the first. So, there was a reason that I started the session asking them, "Tell me about what's good, what's strong, what's an asset." Partly it's because I could sense they were just eager to plunge into the problems. And we are better able to deal with the problems when they sit on top of a foundation of something that is good.

• 18:18Esther Perel?

  So, that's why I had asked. And it's such a powerful diagnostic question. Are people actually able to say this without qualification? Are they able to say it to the person that they're saying it to? Or do they look at me? Because it's actually too vulnerable to look at a person and say, "You are a fantastic father. You're my preferred lover. I loved your hands from the first day I met him." She tells him a lot of very special things, but she realizes that when you've developed a kind of a carapace and a defensive position in a relationship, saying nice things to the other, to their face, has become quite vulnerable.

• 19:04Speaker 09

  And, of course, I also love how you are with my family. I see why everybody loves you at your job. But just because the way you treat people, you know, it's so rare. And, you know, I kind of love how we did everything alone, in a way. And I love how we always toughen up like the hard times.

• 19:24Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 19:25Speaker 09

  Because it's like, we're always alone, right? Because we're so good together sometimes. I feel like we're so perfect.

• 19:38Speaker 09

  Because we know each other so well and because we... I think at the end of the day, we still feel like we've never met anyone like each other, you know?

• 19:50Speaker 08

  Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same way.

• 19:57Esther Perel?

  The word "alone" is at the heart of her experience. And in part, she was alone when mom wasn't home and was always out. But her experience now is that we are alone. We are two, breathing the strength into one. And therefore, I am not alone in the way I used to feel. I'm alone and strong. I'm not alone and scared because we are together. But there is an aspiration toward merging that also is part of the way she describes the oneness.

• 20:45Speaker 08

  And then, one of the things that's difficult for us is how different I grew up with my family and when I interact with them. I wonder how you see me and what it does to you. When I interact with my siblings, with my parents, I often feel like you think I love them more and like I want to spend more time with them. Or when we involve other people in our family, sometimes it's hard because of how different they are culturally and because of my relationship and the way I am with them. I guess because of the way I was raised, we're so close. And that put a lot of extra tension.

• 21:28Speaker 09

  I mean, that's why I filed for divorce because the way his family is, massive problem for us. And it's like there's this part of me which I love them so much.

• 21:37Esther Perel?

  You filed for divorce?

• 21:39Speaker 09

  Well, I mean, like, almost. I emailed his mother that I'm doing it. It was like five weeks ago. I was like, "That's it." This was the closest we've ever been to splitting up. And it's a situation where...

• 21:52Esther Perel?

  One second, one second, because we're about to shift.

• 21:59Esther Perel?

  Is it an amazing non-sequitur? From all of what you just said, you go into the "that's why I filed for divorce"?

• 22:06Speaker 09

  From family, yeah, because of the relationship.

• 22:09Esther Perel?

  And what happens to all what you just said?

• 22:13Speaker 09

  I was dead hurt that I thought it erased it. I don't know. It was secondary. Because at the end of the day, I feel like

• 22:26Speaker 09

  if he's not gonna be with me all the way and take my side, I need to be around and healthy until at least the kids are like eighteen and can go and do whatever they want.

• 22:36Speaker 09

  So if I am the only one making sure I'm standing, then

• 22:41Speaker 09

  yeah, I did think it was bigger than all the good stuff.

• 22:47Esther Perel?

  The very behavior that she is bemoaning vis-à-vis his family and how he takes their side and how he loves them so much is exactly what initially attracted her, which was that he loved them so much. And so she thought, here is someone who knows to love, to be kind, to be loving in a family, to be a good dad, to be a good husband, to be everything I never had. But now that it wasn't all about her, it became intolerable, too painful. And I was very surprised when she said, that's why I filed for divorce, first of all, given what had just preceded. But also because, in fact, that is partly why you think you filed for divorce now, but it is equally why you married him sixteen years ago.

• 23:37Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 24:40Speaker 10

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.

• 24:55Speaker 11

  They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 25:06Speaker 12

  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  And dairy?

• 25:15Speaker 04

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 25:26Speaker 13

  Are you tired of hearing about business, tech, and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday, and we decode money, power, and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Tiger fam.

• 25:58Speaker 09

  You know, you completely unfoundedly accused me of all these things, which are complete lie.

• 26:06Speaker 09

  At home, he said he's taking my side, obviously, because I didn't do anything. But to his family, not to upset this relative who is not mentally ill there.

• 26:18Speaker 09

  I felt like he betrayed me more than like if he had an affair, basically. Because he knew how hurtful that was. And for me to find this text message, after he's telling me he's not socializing with this person, not talking to him. I find this text message saying, oh, I love you and I want to hang out with you. She's with a kid. We can hang out.

• 26:40Speaker 09

  So.

• 26:42Speaker 09

  This guy makes up a story that I named our first family pet. After nickname he had in high school. This guy is like fifty year old man. Somehow I supposed to know that his nickname in high school was something. I named my dog belittling him by doing this. His family believes that I tried to belittle their relative by calling our dog, making up the name, choosing this, like most insane.

• 27:12Esther Perel?

  Can I just, where are you going while all of this is happening now?

• 27:17Speaker 08

  Uh, I can respond to it, like I can.

• 27:20Esther Perel?

  You're just waiting for your turn?

• 27:22Speaker 08

  I can certainly speak to it.

• 27:24Esther Perel?

  No, no, no, don't, don't. Because the whole situation has very little to do with the dog and the relative. And the names and all of that, you are mired into the story.

• 27:48Esther Perel?

  It's the same as what I said about your parents. You're mired in the story and you're not seeing the pattern.

• 27:56Esther Perel?

  You're not with me, that means you're against me. It's either or. You cannot say this and do that. Ambiguity is in existent in this situation. Finding ways to appease people so that one can continue to be in relationship cannot feature here. And you're about to throw your entire family, sixteen year relationship, everything you've just highlighted that you value so much into the dumpster because of this?

• 28:34Esther Perel?

  I I don't wanna demean it or devalue it, but it's like, seriously?

• 28:39Speaker 09

  Because I feel like the justice of being accused something I haven't done, and then, you know, and then he accused me of witchcraft if I send bad vibes to his art project.

• 28:47Esther Perel?

  Where is your sense of humor? Where is your, oh, this is an interesting plot. This is quite a play.

• 28:57Speaker 09

  It's so insane that it should be like a freaking.

• 29:01Esther Perel?

  And where is your bonding around what families sometimes can create such elaborate schemes and stories?

• 29:11Esther Perel?

  And where is your good deal with your family?

• 29:13Speaker 09

  I would have all of that if he was with, if I felt he's with me.

• 29:18Esther Perel?

  Here is the thing, if he agreed with you and just said yes, like a good puppy. You would lose much respect for him.

• 29:29Esther Perel?

  Because if he's a good puppy with you, he's gonna be a good puppy with everybody.

• 29:36Esther Perel?

  And you like strong people with personality and integrity. What you're asking him, if he was to do so, would lessen your esteem for him. You'd feel better because he sided with you.

• 29:53Speaker 09

  Which he did at home.

• 29:54Esther Perel?

  But you won't have much respect for him. Because what you just said is you, I like your decency, I like the way you treat people. I like it for others, but when it's me, I need you to just join me.

• 30:09Speaker 09

  So you find him expressing his love for the person who caused me so much hurt, you find that decent? Cause I find it pacifying mental illness, it's never gonna get fixed.

• 30:20Esther Perel?

  Think that by putting yourself in the center of the plot.

• 30:25Esther Perel?

  You are not helping him and he can't think. Well, that's for sure. Because he is busy making sure that he doesn't have you on his negative side. And then he can't really look at what's happening with the family. Because you've made it about you.

• 30:41Speaker 08

  And imagine my

• 30:42Esther Perel?

  They brought me in.

• 30:43Speaker 08

  My mother is not well and her receiving an email about how she's decided to end the relationship. And being asked not to contact us. My mother is not in a good health.

• 30:55Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but now we're gonna start blaming people for heart attacks. So wait a minute.

• 31:00Speaker 08

  No, yes, yeah.

• 31:01Esther Perel?

  I'm just saying, your families get along. Your first sentence is about how the mothers love each other. Your next thing is about how great of a dad he is and how much of a sense of family he has. And then the next thing is about how you are going to regulate how he's gonna handle his family. I mean, if the guy is not well and out of his mind, then he needs to be the central figure. But you've made it about you. And now it's about the two of you and he's betraying you because he told you one thing and he went to handle his family another way. Because that's what we do in a collectivist culture.

• 31:35Esther Perel?

  You tell everybody what they wanna hear. I think you're right. And it's an art. If you wanna navigate all these relationships, you have to tell each one that their soup is the best.

• 31:50Speaker 08

  There's a lot of nuance. There's a lot of, yeah.

• 31:54Esther Perel?

  Oh, my God, that's so true.

• 31:56Speaker 08

  It's not simple. And especially when it's your own family too. Like, we're talking about someone that's very close to me. That I see as a close mentor. And and someone that I owe as well. Like, most of my family, they they've done everything they could to make sure that I'm okay. So for me, it's not as simple as just speaking my mind, saying what I immediately feel. There's also this currency that goes back and forth.

• 32:22Esther Perel?

  Right, right. But your strength is that you say things just as they come out. His strength is that he can hold it a little bit. Scan the landscape. And then navigate and negotiate the multiple connections.

• 32:44Esther Perel?

  And you can turn to him and say, "You are betraying me, you are weak, you are pandering to everybody and all of that."

• 32:56Esther Perel?

  But you can also look at him and just say, "It's quite amazing how you are able to juggle all these things." And then you can say to him, "What do you think?" Because you become artful at knowing what everybody else thinks and needs and wants. And that usually goes hand in hand with not really knowing what you think anymore because you're busy in everybody else's psyche. And that's where your strength comes in. And now you start to have complementarity of high quality.

• 33:29Esther Perel?

  But this is a missed opportunity. In effect, this becomes a marital crisis. You fight for divorce.

• 33:37Speaker 08

  And my mom is very heartbroken over all of this. Another thing I could maybe share is that us moving back to the States from Europe, part of what we were excited about is to have the kids close to my family. And so this changed everything. We didn't expect it. It put a lot of tension and pressure, created a lot of problems for us. What she's sharing here is probably just a percentage of things that have come up in the family that have caused issues for us.

• 34:05Esther Perel?

  But they're all about the same thing. Who do you fight for?

• 34:10Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 34:11Esther Perel?

  Doesn't matter what the situation is. That's why I'm saying, don't get mired in the story, in the details of the plot. The dance is the same one each time. You stand up for them, not me. You're in a triangular competition all the time.

• 34:27Esther Perel?

  The tension that's highlighted between them is that he cannot speak about himself outside of the context in which he sees himself, vis a vis his family. There is something in the way that he talks about the mother, the uncle, the sister, that it's understandable why she experiences this in somewhat of a competitive way in which she needs to carve her place. But on the other hand, it is also so that she really feels that he is there for her only when there's nobody else around, not physically and not internally for him.

• 35:05Esther Perel?

  And that triangle of competition, you learned where and when. Because that usually doesn't start in adulthood. It's a triangulation, right?

• 35:13Speaker 09

  The only thing I can think of is, um. When my dad grew up, the girl was extremely favorite. You know, like my dad always wanted a dog, never got it. And the second she could talk and said she wants a dog, there was a dog, you know, things like this.

• 35:26Esther Perel?

  Were you your father's favorite?

• 35:28Speaker 09

  He implemented identical, like, I mean, I could burn the house down.

• 35:31Esther Perel?

  And did your mother tell him that he kept putting you first?

• 35:34Speaker 09

  No, my mother completely emotionally neglected me all my life and turned all her love to my brother to even it out.

• 35:40Esther Perel?

  Alright, welcome to the family plot.

• 35:45Esther Perel?

  You will recognize that it's the same thing each time. It's always about who comes first. Who gets the affection, who gets the loyalty?

• 35:57Speaker 09

  Because the way I grew up, that I was competing for my mother's love.

• 36:01Esther Perel?

  And him proving to you that you are number one

• 36:07Esther Perel?

  is the greatest victory you can have.

• 36:12Esther Perel?

  I mean, it's interesting. We've talked about the two of you.

• 36:17Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 36:17Esther Perel?

  And in a way, we've talked more about your families than you.

• 36:22Esther Perel?

  So they're very, very present in this. But you're not always clear what their presence is doing to the two of you.

• 36:33Esther Perel?

  When you start talking about how your mom is still affected, you are in effect saying to her, my mom's well-being matters more than yours.

• 36:48Speaker 09

  And I feel it.

• 36:48Esther Perel?

  It's not off. You don't experience your sense of self as separately from the family that you come from.

• 36:57Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 36:58Esther Perel?

  And you have tried very hard to create a sense of self that is different from the family that you come from, without realizing how tied you are.

• 37:09Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 37:11Esther Perel?

  And so the question is, how do you bring some more freedom and space and independence between the two of you? And more adult connection between the two of you? So that when you ask him things, you don't just ask him things from a family triangular perspective, but you ask him things as a partner. The things you want from him are not from your partner.

• 37:39Esther Perel?

  They are all corrective measures to your childhood.

• 37:45Speaker 09

  That's so crazy. But I also, with the kids, I don't want to defend myself, but I also never want them to feel the way I felt.

• 37:53Esther Perel?

  I know that. Oh, do I know that. The choice of homeschooling them and the choice of not finding anybody to leave them with over years.

• 38:06Esther Perel?

  When that happens, it's, I'm going to protect them from ever having to feel what I felt and hurt me so badly.

• 38:18Esther Perel?

  And you're doing it probably beautifully.

• 38:22Esther Perel?

  Your kids don't feel lonely, but the two of you are feeling more lonely than is necessary at this moment.

• 38:30Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 38:31Esther Perel?

  He can't convince you to go do something with him.

• 38:36Esther Perel?

  Fun, playful, alive.

• 38:41Speaker 08

  And there's resentment that builds up inside me, because there's a lot that I bottle in as well, like my emotions, I don't express them all the time. I'm more thinking about feelings rather than feeling them in my body. And so when we don't get that time to ourselves, I become more resentful, I start to distance myself. Then if I spend time with my family, I feel like sometimes she might be a little bit jealous. I might go out with my sister and she might tell me like, oh, what did you guys do? And I can already feel that there's some kind of a questioning or attention.

• 39:15Speaker 09

  And I can tell you why. Because.

• 39:19Speaker 09

  He has like a different measurement for people of the whole world and his family. And when he's with his sister, she's the most brilliant person he knows. He wants to take pictures with her. He loves her so, you know, all these things he never does with me. He never wants to take photographs with me.

• 39:38Esther Perel?

  Don't do that because you're doing it on the heels of him telling you, I wanna go out with you. I wanna have fun with you. I wanna be playful with you. And you are more hooked to your jealousy and your competition than your desires with him. It's off.

• 39:59Speaker 09

  Maybe.

• 40:00Esther Perel?

  You understand? He doesn't wanna take pictures with you. You repeat that all the time. And it becomes the story because relationships are our stories. And we have this tendency to confuse our stories with the truth.

• 40:17Esther Perel?

  All of us.

• 40:18Speaker 09

  But honestly, like when he says his mom is not well, I wanna eat this table right now, how mad it makes me. Because his mom is not well for a very, very long time.

• 40:25Esther Perel?

  Hold on, hold on. Because we were talking about the two of you. So for a minute, we're not gonna bring a family member in here.

• 40:33Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 40:34Esther Perel?

  We're gonna just meet the couple.

• 40:36Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 40:37Esther Perel?

  And I wanna make sure that you get the space, you know, you were talking about how you're holding things in.

• 40:44Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 40:45Esther Perel?

  And how, in effect, you find yourself constantly in a choice between speaking up and saying what you think or feel versus managing her reaction. And the more you manage her reaction, and the more resentful you are becoming. And the more resentful you become, and the more you take distance. And the more she starts to feel jealous. And the more you have to navigate the competing needs of other people. And the less, what did you say so beautifully, I think about my feelings because I can't feel them.

• 41:22Speaker 08

  Right. And that's detrimental to me, to my well-being.

• 41:26Speaker 09

  It's funny, he told me the other day, he's like, the second I saw you, I knew I can be like a yes guy. So you find me interesting, basically.

• 41:35Esther Perel?

  I couldn't agree with you more. And you're losing that.

• 41:39Speaker 08

  I'm losing that.

• 41:40Esther Perel?

  And you're not gonna like yourself and you're not gonna like her.

• 41:45Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 41:46Esther Perel?

  And instead of waiting till she agrees with you, bring your initiative, not as a task.

• 41:55Speaker 08

  Uh huh.

• 41:56Esther Perel?

  As a need.

• 41:57Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 41:58Esther Perel?

  As a wish.

• 42:00Speaker 08

  Right, so I should stand my ground, be more assertive.

• 42:04Esther Perel?

  But not in opposition to her. You are assertive at this moment when you are in opposition to her.

• 42:12Esther Perel?

  Sometimes you may just say, let's do this and then be reassuring to her.

• 42:16Speaker 08

  Sure, absolutely. Yeah, and what I would expect is her being in opposition to me at that point. I tend to be very optimistic and I tend to be like, hey, let's do this, this is gonna be fantastic. It's gonna be good for us, we're gonna experience some joy.

• 42:32Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 42:33Speaker 08

  And she might be like, no, you might only wanna do this for selfish reasons or like you're making these types of friends because it serves you in a particular way. And so that's why she's not interested and she doesn't join that call to like do something like different. She won't join me in in the experience.

• 42:52Esther Perel?

  And then what happens?

• 42:54Speaker 08

  That can escalate into an argument. It could turn into something quite big where she starts bringing up things from the past that I haven't done well. And then at that point, I'm just like, alright, so. So that's part of the reason why I'm very careful about what we choose to do. Like the holiday party is an example, like I knew that maybe she wasn't gonna be like a hundred percent thinking this is gonna be the funnest thing in the world. But I did know that at the end of it, she's gonna be very glad and happy that she got to do it. But there was some work.

• 43:23Esther Perel?

  How did you do it? How did you manage to have her join you?

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Get me out of here.

• 43:28Esther Perel?

  Yes. I like the humor with which you, if you could have some of that in your house, would go longer.

• 43:35Speaker 08

  The humor, humor is important. Getting her to really imagine herself being next to me and how important it was for me to have her there. I kept telling her, it's gonna be great for you to come. I want everyone to meet you.

• 43:48Esther Perel?

  Lovely.

• 43:49Speaker 08

  And she was in and out of it. Like she was like, no, I'm not going, yes, I'm going. There was a dance.

• 43:54Esther Perel?

  She gives you a run for your money. You're good at this. My god. This is to hone your chops. Every time she resists, you tell her, I so love how you're making me stand up for myself. How you're strengthening my will.

• 44:15Esther Perel?

  In the example of the holiday party, they highlight once more what I called earlier in the session, the high-quality complementarity between them. On some level, not consciously at all, he chose her because she would help him stand up for himself. She would actually help him say what he needs, say what he wants, which she's very good at, including when he wants her to come with him to the party. And on the other side, she chose him with a sense that he could bring her the warmth of family that she never had and the love that he could share with them.

• 44:58Esther Perel?

  She imagined he could also bestow upon her. And that complementarity by which one person brings connection and the other person brings individuation is a very powerful pool of attraction between two people.

• 45:18Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 45:34Speaker 14

  As a small business owner, I don't have time for downtime. Luckily, AT&T Business Wireless doesn't take breaks. When my business takes me on the go, my wireless stays reliable. Or when I'm taking my pitch on the road, my bandwidth is faster than rush hour traffic. And when I'm working from home, my network is as fast as a touchdown drive! What? I'm multitasking.

• 45:54Speaker 15

  Keep your business connected with AT&T Business Wireless. Visit att.com/5gnetwork. When the connection matters, it has to be AT&T.

• 46:06Speaker 08

  One other small thing that I might add here. So for New Year's, we went out of the city, we went upstate.

• 46:11Speaker 09

  At the best time of my life.

• 46:12Speaker 08

  Those are the things she loves to do the most. Where there's the fewest amount of people, where we're not in public.

• 46:16Esther Perel?

  Okay, do both.

• 46:17Speaker 09

  But this is what I was gonna tell her. While I tend to now go more into the serenity of nature, like we were making fires in this upstate property. There was absolutely nothing else to do. We were making the fires with the kids. At night, we were making puzzles. There was no technology doing. My husband's idea of good time. Take the kids, grab them, and eat junk food and watch movie on Times Square, you know? For me, that's like, that's a big screen. You take them from screen they looked at home, from screen on TV. And then I was like, well, so since you were already up there, why didn't you take them to Central Park? You know, because I like present activities. I like much more pure and healthier in every single way.

• 47:00Speaker 09

  Versus his idea, the things he wants to do. Of course, I like to see movies here and there, but like, so many times, he offers ideas and he doesn't offer help with the logistic. Like, how are we gonna do it then? So if we're gonna do this, are you gonna help me to?

• 47:14Esther Perel?

  Okay. May I?

• 47:17Speaker 09

  Yes.

• 47:20Esther Perel?

  He comes with an idea. You say, what should we do to make it happen?

• 47:25Speaker 09

  Instead of even vocalizing it.

• 47:27Esther Perel?

  You are in the criticism and into the resentment before anything. And if they wanna schlep together to Times Square, your kids are being homeschooled. It's not like they're gonna get contaminated.

• 47:42Esther Perel?

  You care about certain things, and it's very important, and you value them. But it doesn't have to be purist in order for it to stand. It will stand. So when he comes with an idea, you're not responding to the idea. You're responding to your abandonment of this man. The response is instantly, I'm all alone with everything. It's a response from your childhood.

• 48:15Esther Perel?

  Me with the kids is like me with my brother.

• 48:18Speaker 08

  Um hum.

• 48:19Esther Perel?

  And I have to attend to everything. And you fall in the trap every time.

• 48:26Esther Perel?

  You you see?

• 48:28Speaker 08

  What can I do?

• 48:29Esther Perel?

  Well, you tell me. You're smart.

• 48:31Speaker 08

  It's a pattern. It's a pattern.

• 48:32Esther Perel?

  You know, don't play helpless. Cause you take on the role of the victim in the house. I'm so good. I'm so kind. I care about everyone.

• 48:42Speaker 08

  I'm always happy to be wrong and maybe that's part of it too.

• 48:45Esther Perel?

  No, but you come home with an idea. And she goes into the but but who's gonna do this and who's gonna do that and.

• 48:52Speaker 08

  Um hum.

• 48:53Esther Perel?

  What do you do?

• 48:54Speaker 08

  Sometimes it does upset me to the point where, you know, we argue about it. Makes me feel like I hate that I have to get to this level where we have to discuss it in this manner.

• 49:04Esther Perel?

  Don't.

• 49:07Esther Perel?

  You see, the thing is that you respond as if she's the one leading you.

• 49:12Speaker 08

  Um hum. I have to lead more.

• 49:14Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 49:15Speaker 08

  Yeah. Some ideas are easier to implement than others. Sometimes I tell her, hey, why don't you go with your friends? Cause I see it does her a lot of good as well to be doing things on her own.

• 49:26Esther Perel?

  Of course.

• 49:27Speaker 08

  So I'm like, why don't you go with your friends and just take a trip? And that's something I do bring up pretty every now and then. So it's also those types of ideas.

• 49:37Speaker 09

  Never. He's never been with the kids and a dog alone. I took the kids to Europe. I had all of them for six weeks. He goes on business trip seven days at the time.

• 49:46Esther Perel?

  So why don't you?

• 49:49Speaker 08

  She has the opportunity sometimes.

• 49:51Esther Perel?

  We all know that. But why don't you is not about you.

• 49:55Speaker 09

  Because you're gonna think I'm crazy even more, but.

• 49:57Esther Perel?

  No, I have not had that thought one.

• 50:00Speaker 09

  Because I don't think he takes care of all of them as well as I would.

• 50:03Esther Perel?

  I have not had that thought.

• 50:07Esther Perel?

  And I want you to not necessarily

• 50:10Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 50:11Esther Perel?

  Take that to her.

• 50:13Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 50:13Esther Perel?

  So what did you say? Because I don't think he takes care of them as well as I do.

• 50:17Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 50:18Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 50:18Speaker 09

  And I'm not there.

• 50:19Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:19Speaker 09

  And I guess at the end, it goes back to my childhood where the fraction of

• 50:27Speaker 09

  me leaving them and possibly them having like a lower quality of everything. In a way, you know, I mean, like, they're not gonna go to park for as long, they're not gonna maybe. You know, now, as I'm saying it, it sounds so insane, honestly.

• 50:42Esther Perel?

  It's not insane, it's raw, it's fragile, it's traumatic.

• 50:49Speaker 09

  Yeah, I feel like I can't meet them.

• 50:50Esther Perel?

  Right, but not because of him.

• 50:53Speaker 09

  And it's actually not because of him.

• 50:55Esther Perel?

  Okay, we need to establish that once, you need to establish that. It's not because of him. There is a level, I called it rigidity. I will control this to the nth degree. To make sure that there is not an ounce of what I felt in my childhood that my kids will feel.

• 51:16Speaker 09

  Yeah. But what is that? Jesus Christ. How did I took it to that level? It's almost like unreasonable, you know what I mean?

• 51:27Esther Perel?

  It's not almost.

• 51:30Esther Perel?

  But it's understandable.

• 51:33Esther Perel?

  There's something so not grounded in reality, but grounded in trauma.

• 51:41Esther Perel?

  Grounded in early deprivation.

• 51:46Esther Perel?

  Where it becomes a dogma, to the point where him one minute with the kids alone, after I've described how much he's a fantastic father, is inconceivable to me, and it's not about him.

• 52:00Speaker 09

  A hundred percent agree.

• 52:02Speaker 08

  But what I would love is opportunities for me to also grow as a father, to be alone with my kids. For me to like, do things my way, not just the way she wants them.

• 52:16Esther Perel?

  If you are able to vacate the space and let him take over.

• 52:26Esther Perel?

  It's not just to see if he's capable and if he can do it his way or as well as you. Because you're not the boss of the of the criteriums here of what is good parenting. But the most important reason for you to do this is that if you can allow him and you can begin to trust him, you will finally take care of the original wound, that you're not all alone with everything on your shoulders.

• 53:04Speaker 09

  No, I agree. I have a hundred percent.

• 53:05Esther Perel?

  You understand, it's not just to see if he's capable. It actually.

• 53:10Speaker 09

  It doesn't even matter if he's, I mean, we all know he's capable, more than capable.

• 53:13Esther Perel?

  Okay. Can you say that to him?

• 53:16Speaker 09

  I know you're capable of doing, even if you do it a little bit differently.

• 53:20Speaker 08

  I know you're very particular, but yeah, I can.

• 53:23Speaker 09

  You, I know nobody's gonna be dead when I come back.

• 53:26Speaker 08

  There's things that I could do at home, but what I also need is like the feeling good and that you trust me and that we're like on this mutual mission.

• 53:35Esther Perel?

  So when she doesn't trust you, this may help you.

• 53:42Esther Perel?

  It's not because she doesn't think you're not capable.

• 53:46Esther Perel?

  When she doesn't trust you, it's because she is holding on tooth and nail to that voice inside of her that says, there's nobody there for you.

• 53:59Esther Perel?

  And you have to do it all alone. She's dying to let go of that voice, but she also has built an entire life around that voice.

• 54:10Esther Perel?

  And so she is afraid that if she loosens it a little bit, the whole thing can dissolve on the spot. It's irrational. It's not real, but the fear is very real.

• 54:26Speaker 09

  And then I'm a bad parent also.

• 54:29Esther Perel?

  Because you're trying to be the parent that your mother never was.

• 54:32Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 54:32Esther Perel?

  You know, it's all that theme. So when you are talking to her and she doesn't trust you, don't start saying I'm capable.

• 54:43Esther Perel?

  Just tell her you're not alone.

• 54:46Speaker 08

  That's a great tip. I love that.

• 54:48Esther Perel?

  You understand? It's about talking to that part of her that is afraid to loosen this thing even a millimeter. Because her entire coping, survival strategy is organized around this.

• 55:07Esther Perel?

  This idea that if you, what was it, don't take them the same amount of time in the park. Is gonna make her be a bad mother. It's intense, it's extreme, it's debilitating. And it's not allowing her to go away with her friends, to go see a movie, to go with you to a party. She's drying up in her own well.

• 55:30Esther Perel?

  And when you think she's controlling, which of course she is, because control is the mechanism with which she tries to protect this identity, in your head, just think fear. Fear is not the word, terror.

• 55:49Esther Perel?

  Tell me what has been your experience hearing all of this?

• 55:55Speaker 09

  Well, absolutely mind blowing, first of all. I can't believe it. It sounds so true to me. It rings like with every fiber of my body. I think that's what it is. You know, that's where it all comes from. So I'm shocked that I didn't see it myself, where it comes from. I'm shocked I didn't see how rigid that was. But I almost feel like I have a green card now.

• 56:19Speaker 09

  Like I'm not a bad mom if I do that, you know.

• 56:24Speaker 08

  Or that you have like now.

• 56:26Speaker 09

  Like I have a confirmation.

• 56:27Speaker 08

  Or confirmation. That you can take care of yourself too.

• 56:32Speaker 09

  Bad mom.

• 56:34Speaker 08

  Of course.

• 56:35Speaker 09

  It's so embarrassing. Makes me feel like I'm not intelligent person, you know.

• 56:41Speaker 08

  No.

• 56:41Speaker 09

  Like how could I not see that, put it together myself.

• 56:46Esther Perel?

  It's always easier to see it in others. And it's not that you didn't see it, is that a part of you that made that vow a long time ago is organized around you not seeing it, otherwise you're gonna go off for a weekend.

• 57:07Esther Perel?

  And it has tried to convince you your entire life that one evening away is going to affect their entire future.

• 57:17Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 57:18Esther Perel?

  And it is, first of all, inaccurate. Second of all, you may end up proving your mother wrong, but you may not do right by your kids.

• 57:31Speaker 09

  And my marriage, probably.

• 57:32Esther Perel?

  Your marriage, that's a given.

• 57:35Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 57:35Esther Perel?

  That is not a maybe.

• 57:38Esther Perel?

  Here's the irony, this is the first time in the history of humankind that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple. On the long list of what your kids need, attending to your relationship is huge. Because it actually will give them the family that you so much wanted them to have.

• 58:01Speaker 09

  It's the most important thing.

• 58:08Esther Perel?

  This is actually not where the session ended. They had planned to go all together with the family because the children actually had accompanied them and were waiting the entire time in another room. And the family had decided to go for lunch in the neighborhood where she used to work.

• 58:28Esther Perel?

  And the suggestion was that after lunch, Dad and the kids would do their thing in town, picking up on him being alone with the children in the city. But for her to go and do something of her own, and especially to walk around in the old neighborhood where she used to work before she was married, when she still felt free and playful and partied a lot and had a very different connection of who she was then. What happened to them was actually quite interesting and I invite you to listen to the follow up on my subscription on Apple Podcasts, where I put all the follow ups of many of the sessions that we do.

• 59:11Esther Perel?

  But in listening to this session right now as I arrive at the end, it's clear that I did a lot of work with her and less with him. I didn't focus on her because the issue was bigger on her side. I focused on her because I tend to go where I think there is greater flexibility and nimbleness for change. And I felt it. Whenever I would say something, I knew that she was loosening the knots that were tying her together. And so if she could shift, he would follow. This is in case you want to know a little bit about what goes in the mind of this particular couple's therapist.

• 1:00:04Speaker 00

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 1:01:36Speaker 10

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.

• 1:01:51Speaker 11

  They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 1:02:02Speaker 12

  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  And dairy?

• 1:02:11Speaker 04

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 1:02:14Speaker 02

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.