Mafia States of America | Episode 6 - "The Fall and the Faith"

Sammy Gravano and Michael Franzese face off on guilt, loyalty, legacy, and redemption in the most emotional episode of Mafia States of America. ---- 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON SPOTIFY: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g57zR2 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ITUNES: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g1bXAh 🎙️ FOLLOW THE PODCAST ON ALL PLATFORMS: https://bit.ly/4eXQl6A Ⓜ️ CONNECT ON MINNECT: ⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4kSVkso Ⓜ️ PBD PODCAST CIRCLES: https://bit.ly/4mAWQAP 🥃 BOARDROOM CIGAR LOUNGE: https://bit.ly/4pzLEXj 🍋 ZEST IT FORWARD: https://bit.ly/4kJ71lc 📕 PBD'S BOOK "THE ACADEMY": https://bit.ly/41rtEV4 👔 BET-DAVID CONSULTING: https://bit.ly/4lzQph2 📺 JOIN THE CHANNEL: ⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/4g5C6Or 💬 TEXT US: Text “PODCAST” to 310-340-1132 to get the latest updates in real-time! SUBSCRIBE TO: @VALUETAINMENT @ValuetainmentComedy @theunusualsuspectspodcast @HerTakePod @bizdocpodcast ABOUT US: Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller “Your Next Five Moves” (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 1:16Speaker 02

  Previously on Mafia States of America.

• 1:21Patrick Bet-David?

  What caused the fall of the mob? Was it Pistone? Was it Giuliani? Was it Velaci?

• 1:26Speaker 04

  Mid-'80s, racketeering law. When the government changed or leveled the playing field to a degree that we just couldn't keep up with it. Guy gets convicted, he gets 10 years, 15 years. He makes parole, he does seven, eight, nine. Anybody can do that kind of thing. But when you change the playing field to where you bring in a law like the RICO Act, that's very hard to defend. To me, it's unconstitutional. The fear of the government overpowered the fear that we had on the street. And as a result, a lot of guys went the other way, and you just couldn't overcome it.

• 2:01Speaker 05

  Like any other great organization, they were, from their point of view, they were fortunate to have Luciano and Lansky. One, a financial genius. The other one, kind of an organizational genius. Put together a structure that was better than anybody else. And if you followed their rules, they might still be.

• 2:19Speaker 06

  Rudy was another guy, you know, these guys. Again, you're a prosecutor, someone brings you a case, so be it. He takes the law and he invents ways to, like he says, "It's unconstitutional," to corrupt the law to hurt these people.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  I had a friend, Phil Folio, my best friend. I was his best man, he was my best man at our weddings. One of the great men I've ever met in my whole life. Probably the greatest man, other than my father, of course. But Phil was a DA, he worked with Rudy Giuliani. One time a guy went in his office and they were trying to get this guy, the mafia guy, to flip. Well, he leaned back in his chair and said, "Well, I gotta think about it, Phil. I wanna think about my future." And Phil said, "Your future?" He stood up, walked over to him, grabbed him by his elbow, brought him over to the big window and said, "You see that sun? Look at that sun, make a mental picture of it. Because the next time you're gonna see that sun is the year 2040. Now get the fuck out of here."

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Ten minutes later, he came back and he sang like Pavarotti. He told them everything, because he knew he wasn't about to go away for forty, fifty years, pal.

• 4:31Patrick Bet-David?

  The other day I'm at the Ferrari dealership, I'm about to get a call, my son's with me, guy pulls me aside, he says, "Hey", he said, "I love your interviews", I said, "Cool", he says, "You know Sammy bought my wife a gift, thirty years ago", I said, "Oh, great", he says, "So you're working on anything right now", I said, "I'm working on something big right now", he says, "Why are those guys so close to you? Why did those guys trust you? Are you in the life?" I said, "I'm just a guy that's interviewing, right? So there is risk for me, but my risk isn't doing this because I'm enamored, I'm like fascinated by, what if one day I'm a made man? What I'm enamored by is, was there ever a moment where Sammy could have flipped to gone and lived a good life? Could we have ever prevented a Sammy from happening? Could we have ever prevented a Michael from happening? Could that have been prevented? That's my fascination. My fascination is not with the life of, "Oh, it's so cool, they kill people",

• 5:16Patrick Bet-David?

  I don't think that part's cool. So, the law and order is the only difference. Well, when you make that argument, I go back and process it. Military's law and order, I'm following my command, and you don't have the law to go out there and say, "Hey", everybody doesn't. Not everybody does it.

• 5:31Speaker 06

  But who makes these laws?

• 5:33Patrick Bet-David?

  Politicians do, yeah, governments, yeah.

• 5:36Speaker 06

  So they make a law, they'll make, and we all know it, they'll make some excuse to attack a government, to attack a country, whatever which reason. In some countries, there's really not even a reason anymore. And we attack people and kill them in drugs. So they made those laws, and that makes it legitimate, in God's eyes, we were talking about. In God's eyes, you don't think God knows that that's all fake and phony and bullshit, those laws?

• 6:10Patrick Bet-David?

  I understand what you're saying, but you have the ability to want to go into office and want to amend some of those laws if you really wanted to change some of them. That's the, that's art.

• 6:20Speaker 06

  I'll be a congressman or a senator?

• 6:21Patrick Bet-David?

  No, what I'm saying, if it really mattered to an individual, the system is set up. I've lived in Iran, and I lived in Iran ten years, okay? We can't go around telling people we're Christians, we couldn't do it. We were taught, somebody asks you what religion you're, you used to ask my parents, I don't know, that we couldn't really feel that free. This is what your parents are telling you. The point I'm saying to you is, there was no law and order. It meant nothing. What protects Americans to freely sit here?

• 6:47Speaker 06

  No, there was law and order even in Iran, but it's their, a man-made law and order. It's there or it's not here because you could come here and think.

• 6:57Speaker 04

  What are we trying to say? Look Sammy, were we criminals just then?

• 7:02Speaker 06

  Without a doubt.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Okay, is that normal to be a criminal?

• 7:11Speaker 06

  No, not really.

• 7:12Speaker 04

  Is it, is it normal for me to take an oath and say, if my mother is sick and dying and this criminal organization calls me that I'm a part of, to go kill somebody, I'm supposed to lead my mother's side and go and kill that person? Is that normal? I took an oath to do that. That's not normal. It's not normal Sammy.

• 7:37Speaker 06

  I can give you that in the word that that's not normal, but there's a lot of people out there all over the planet, different countries, like we're starting to talk about different countries, that it creates these things and these issues and these problems. So to pick out or find a, a different thing and, and blame the whole thing on that particular item like Ozone Ocean. There's so many fucking, so many things, there's so many crimes within law and order.

• 8:08Speaker 04

  My dad told me one thing a long time ago and I think you'll agree, two wrongs never make a right. So, and neither do a hundred wrongs make a right. So you can't say, well, other people are doing it, so I'm doing it. It's still wrong. What we were involved in, and listen, and listen.

• 8:26Speaker 06

  I'm not saying it's not wrong, I'm saying that you pick out the one item and say it's wrong. When there is a hundred wrongs.

• 8:30Speaker 04

  There's a, there's a lot of guys in that life that I loved. I'm not talking about these guys, but all of us were abnormal being part of that life. It wasn't nor, we didn't think the right way. When somebody tells you, you gotta go kill this guy. I don't even know this guy. What are I gonna... Well, you don't have to know what happened. Go kill him. What did he do? Never mind, just go kill him. Okay? That's not normal, Sammy.

• 8:56Speaker 06

  It's not normal because you don't understand the beginning of Gozan Osha, how this thing even started. And what it was.

• 9:04Speaker 04

  Sammy, I don't care if it started a hundred years ago. I'm not smirking at you. I don't care if it started a hundred years ago or yesterday. It's not normal.

• 9:13Speaker 06

  To you, it's not normal?

• 9:14Speaker 04

  It's not.

• 9:15Speaker 06

  Good, then keep that in your mind, it's not normal. But yet, you'll break that "not normal" to defend they go kill somebody who fucked with your family.

• 9:25Speaker 05

  Think of a career criminal this way. Think of a... Think of a burglar. If he's in jail for four years, you just saved yourself probably a thousand burglaries. That just don't happen. If he's on the... Every day he's on the street, he's gonna commit a burglary. So, you've got to concentrate your law enforcement efforts on career criminals. The crimes are not committed by everybody. Crimes are committed by far fewer people than you think. And James Q. Wilson, the professor from Harvard, who came up with the broken windows theory, also came up with the theory of the career criminal. You gotta find the right guy and put him in prison. And boom, you can bring the crime rates down.

• 10:10Speaker 05

  Doesn't mean everybody. It means the guy who's a recidivist. The guy who is gonna get arrested seventy times for banging little old ladies in the head. And, right now, there's no... Right now, it's completely chaotic. It's the desire to make criminals feel good.

• 10:27Patrick Bet-David?

  Sammy, looking at it from the outside, uh, from my lens, purely my lens, and I've studied both of you a lot, and I've done my best to study your life a lot, a lot of different characters. We, as individuals, have a tendency... We all live our lives, especially men who have big egos and we have pride. I would consider myself one. We've done a lot of stupid things. We've made mistakes. Now, some is taking a life, some is personal, some is breaking someone's heart, some is a lot... We've all done stuff that we can sit back and say, you know, "I screwed up at this time." And it's very easy as a person who's a great salesperson, persuader, to justify why what I did at that time... Was the right thing to do?

• 11:09Patrick Bet-David?

  Do you find yourself trying to justify yourself so you can live with Sammy the rest of your life? Is that what you do for you to say? I didn't do anything wrong. It's normal. That was part of my life. Is there a level?

• 11:20Speaker 06

  If I thought it was out now, normal, I would be doing it every day of the week, right now. I've changed my life. It's not normal. I give you that. It's not normal lifestyle. So I'm out of that lifestyle and I... I don't kill. I don't do anything illegitimate. Part of my thing is I don't wanna go back to prison. I don't want... Prison isn't a normal fucking place. So, I get normalcy with people around me, my family, things I'm doing. I use goes and wash every day of the week. In my own thoughts, business-wise.

• 12:00Speaker 06

  I look at a business, I talk to business people, and the guy's got a Harvard degree. And I'm listening to him talk. He doesn't even know what the fuck planet he's on.

• 12:11Patrick Bet-David?

  I'm just asking, you know, some things we've done in our lives, you know...

• 12:16Speaker 06

  What are you doing, a sermon here now?

• 12:18Patrick Bet-David?

  No, I'm not, I'm not.

• 12:19Speaker 06

  You're gonna make me become what?

• 12:20Patrick Bet-David?

  No, I'm not. There's zero. I have zero intention of making you do anything. It's just, do you ever find yourself trying to justify certain things you didn't pass down and regret?

• 12:29Speaker 06

  No, no, I don't justify certain things. I don't justify it. It was a way of life and what I did at that particular time. I did. At that time. I don't make it normal. I don't make it right. It's what it was.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Can I ask you a question?

• 12:43Speaker 06

  Yeah, sure.

• 12:43Speaker 04

  I'll ask one. Are you sorry for the things that you did in that life?

• 12:47Speaker 06

  Some of them, sure. Some of them. And I think there was a lot of them, like I said with the story of Louis, that are unjust. They're unjust. Even in our terms, they're unjust. And those things like Carmine did or these scheming things, those are abnormal completely. Those are just devils. Roy DeMeo and these type of people. I'm totally against it. But people who got orders and came into this life as kids were trained or schooled a certain way. Blacks that grew up in ghettos. What, do we hate them all because they did some crimes? They come out of fucking neighborhoods, that's all they know.

• 13:32Speaker 06

  So at some point, they changed their life. At some point, something else happens. Maybe an intervention should go back then where you helped them to get out of that life.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  To get out of an abnormal life, exactly.

• 13:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, basically, yeah, but it's not there. For a lot of people, a lot of situations, it's not there.

• 13:53Speaker 04

  Listen, I could sit here and tell you, you know, I could give my father a lot of praise for what he did. But in my view, he also sacrificed my family. One of the reasons I walked away because I said, Dad, I'm not putting my family through what our family went through. Because you didn't want to walk away from that life. I would never want him to be a snitch or a cooperator or anything else, but Dad, you had every reason to walk away. You got lifetime parole. You can't be involved with anybody. You got violated five times. So forget that right now. Nobody's gonna talk about you because you lived a life the way you were supposed to live according to the streets. So go take care of our family now. And he couldn't do it. Because it was more important to him, it was more important to him, his legacy in that life.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  And so, for me, I don't want to do that, Dad.

• 14:41Speaker 06

  So your father was ninety something years old, so you would flip his legacy, right? Maybe it was a legacy there. Maybe it was what he believed in. So hard that he willing to stay in prisons and everything. So he's wrong.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 14:57Speaker 06

  He's crazy.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  No, he's wrong. I didn't say he was crazy.

• 15:01Speaker 06

  Then why would he do it? He's protecting what he was, what he lived for. So you want, why?

• 15:08Speaker 04

  No, what?

• 15:08Speaker 06

  What are you, all your life, that you can't even look in a fucking mirror or talk to people and say, I did a lot of harm, I did a lot of things, but that's me, that's behind me. It's not me now, it's behind me, and you can't go forward? Who? What you're saying, he can't go forward. In other words, he wants to be able to live his... He lived his life, he lived his legacy. He's almost 100 years old. He knows his short period of time. So what is he supposed to say? "I'm abnormal my whole life"?

• 15:38Speaker 04

  No, I don't know where you're coming from. What he's supposed to say is, okay, after maybe three violations, and the fact that he can't meet anybody, he went back five times for association. So, wait, wait a minute. Your wife, right now, can't stand you because she blames you for everything that went wrong in her life because she's been without you for 33 years. Your son's a drug addict. Your daughter died of an overdose of drugs. Your younger sister, your younger daughter, rather, died of cancer, and she was a basket case. Your two other sisters, daughters, don't talk to you. Okay? So why don't you just say, "Let me leave that behind, and let me try to take care of my family"?

• 16:18Speaker 06

  So that's all that thing that happened, all those people, that's his fault?

• 16:23Speaker 04

  Well, who should... Oh, you're asking? Who should take responsibility?

• 16:26Speaker 06

  I'm asking you, is that... It's all his fault?

• 16:29Speaker 04

  You know what, Sammy? You have to take responsibility. You're the man of the house, and that's your family. You brought these kids into the world.

• 16:35Speaker 06

  He put that needle in your brother's arm.

• 16:37Speaker 04

  No, that's not the point. But if you weren't a father anymore, you were... You brought kids into the world, and you went your own separate way, and you could have got out of it because my dad got out of jail each time in time to save this family.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, theHouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

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• 17:34Speaker 06

  I'm sure your dad, when he got out of prison, tried to get out of prison and do something. There's always somebody there. Your brother testified against him, wore a wire against him.

• 17:45Speaker 04

  You want to know something?

• 17:47Speaker 06

  And put him away.

• 17:48Speaker 04

  My brother, I hadn't seen my brother in 14 years. I just saw him at my birthday party last week. My brother couldn't stand my father, couldn't stand my mother. I couldn't stand my brother for testifying against my father, but after speaking to him for the first time in 14 years, I said, "You know what, Michael? You're wrong. I'm not saying he should have testified." I said, "John, you shouldn't have done that, but I understand what happened to you. I was in that house. I saw what happened. You have no idea what went on in our house."

• 18:20Speaker 06

  You have no idea what happened in a lot of different houses.

• 18:23Speaker 04

  Okay, but when you're the man of the house and you take responsibility for that...

• 18:27Speaker 06

  He wore a wire against him. He came in and wore a wire.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  My brother was a junkie. You know what the hell he was doing.

• 18:32Speaker 06

  That's what I'm saying, but in your eyes, what you were explaining, most of this is your father's fault.

• 18:37Speaker 04

  A lot of it is my...

• 18:38Speaker 06

  But he didn't walk away.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  You've got to take responsibility for your family, Sammy. That comes first. You marry somebody, you bring kids into this world, that's not your first...

• 18:47Speaker 06

  What would he do?

• 18:48Speaker 04

  You mean to tell me Cousin Lester comes before that?

• 18:51Speaker 06

  No.

• 18:52Speaker 04

  That's why it's...

• 18:53Speaker 06

  Not to me, but...

• 18:54Speaker 04

  No, no, no. Yes, it did.

• 18:56Speaker 06

  It did at that point.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  That's right. That's not normal, and it did for my father his whole life until he died at 103. His whole life, so his family went to hell. I don't know how I got out. I don't even know. I can't even explain myself. I'm the only one that managed to get out of that mess. I don't know why. That's maybe why I believe in God, because he had a different plan and a purpose for me. It's been obvious over the past 25 years, because I don't know why I am where I am, other than that. That's my explanation. People can knock me to... Listen, let me tell you something. You're a Christian, you're going to get knocked all the time. It's normal. Jesus told us that. It's not a big deal. We're going to take the weight. You're a Jew, same thing. You're going to get knocked all the time. We understand that. That's okay. But you cannot tell me, and I love my, I love my father.

• 19:41Speaker 04

  I lived for that man until he died. I love my dad. But he was wrong Sammy. You don't, you don't destroy your, you don't allow your family to be destroyed. Because you took an oath and you wanna go down and die with your boots on and say, "Sonny Francis never opened his mouth." Okay, great. Now let's go look at his family.

• 20:05Speaker 04

  It's wrong Sammy. It's wrong.

• 20:09Speaker 06

  I don't know. I really don't know.

• 20:12Speaker 04

  I, I don't know why you wouldn't agree with me at that point.

• 20:14Speaker 06

  Well, I, I tell, I tell you the truth. I hope my daughter and my son don't think like you. That they hate me because.

• 20:20Speaker 04

  I don't hate, I just said I love my father. I don't, I love my father. My father did all the good for me.

• 20:26Speaker 06

  That don't sound like fucking love to me, bro. It don't sound like love.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  Sammy, you hold people accountable whether you loved them or not. I love my brother. I don't agree with him being a drug addict. I love my sister.

• 20:36Speaker 06

  But you got it back in your house after fourteen years.

• 20:38Speaker 04

  That's right. It's my brother. I don't care what he did at this point. It's my brother. It's my family. It's my blood. I don't care what he did. And he had, maybe he had a reason. You had a reason for what you did.

• 20:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 20:48Speaker 04

  Okay, so?

• 20:51Speaker 04

  Should your family hate you for what you did?

• 20:53Speaker 06

  It's wiring up.

• 20:55Speaker 04

  Sammy, Sammy, don't compare what my, my brother was a junkie, bro. Don't compare what my brother did to what you did.

• 21:00Speaker 06

  So don't bring him in the mix.

• 21:01Speaker 04

  Why, why not? We're, we're having a discussion. I'm telling you.

• 21:04Speaker 06

  But you can't turn a red and say, "He was a junkie."

• 21:07Speaker 04

  He was.

• 21:09Speaker 06

  So if I'm a junkie, everything's cool?

• 21:11Speaker 04

  No. I just said, I, you were wrong with what you did, John. I could admit that. I was wrong with what I did. But for some reason, you, you wanna justify it. There is no justification for, there's no justification for any of this. Nothing. All we try to do is make ourselves feel, "Oh, I had a reason for doing this. I had a reason for doing that." I could say the same thing. "Oh, I, I, I got into that life to help my father," which I did. So what? You got into a bad life. You took an oath. You weren't a drug addict. You knew exactly what you were doing. I knew exactly what I was doing when I said, "If I need to kill somebody, I'll do it, even if I don't know him." That's not normal Sammy. And I'll take responsibility for that.

• 21:51Speaker 06

  What do you mean you'll take responsibility? For who? For what? What do you mean you're gonna take responsibility for that?

• 21:58Speaker 04

  Sammy, let me tell you something. I defunded the government had a tax on every gallon of gasoline. Hundreds of millions of dollars. I took the plea, I went to prison. I took responsibility for it.

• 22:09Speaker 06

  Alright, that's taking responsibility.

• 22:12Speaker 04

  What am I supposed to do? What else am I supposed to do? Commit suicide?

• 22:16Speaker 06

  No, no, no, not commit suicide.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  So what are you supposed to do?

• 22:20Speaker 06

  You did what you did. You went to jail, you came out, you changed your life, you did your life. I'll go whining about what you did.

• 22:27Speaker 04

  I'm not whining, Sammy, I'm not whining. Don't put that on me.

• 22:30Speaker 06

  What your father did, not what your father did. That he stood up for who he was.

• 22:34Speaker 04

  I have every right, excuse me, I have every right to do that.

• 22:36Speaker 06

  You don't have a right to die with some sort of legacy of his own. Whatever his thinking was.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  You don't have a right to throw your family to the... No, you don't.

• 22:44Speaker 06

  You didn't throw nobody in hell.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Yes, he did. As far as I'm concerned, he did. And I told you that. I still love my dad. But you gotta be held accountable for what you did in this life.

• 22:53Speaker 06

  He had fifty years in prison, this poor bastard. And he truly is, and he did all this stuff.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Sammy, you weren't in my house, I know what happened.

• 23:00Speaker 06

  I'm in a lot of houses.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  You weren't in my house.

• 23:01Speaker 06

  No, not in your house. I've been in a lot of houses. Right across the board, in bad houses, all over the country.

• 23:07Speaker 04

  You weren't in my house.

• 23:08Speaker 06

  No, man, I wasn't in your house.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  Okay, so I know what happened in that house. And I asked my father, I said, "Dad, what do you need this for? Family's falling apart." I said, "You went in jail, nobody gave you two cents." Nobody gave you two cents. If we didn't go break our ass, turn money, who gave you a penny? Nobody gave us one quarter. As a matter of fact, when you come out of jail, they broke you. They broke you for standing up. That wasn't embarrassing? It was. My dad, you know what? My dad didn't wanna get me mad, so he said, "No, don't worry about it. This life is a wheel, it'll turn around." He gave me all that philosophy, which was true, okay? Not to get me upset at the time. But that doesn't mean I don't know what happened. So what are you doing, Dad?

• 23:54Speaker 04

  Your family's going to hell, and you just don't wanna... You wanna be known as the most stand-up guy in the world. Great, well, that's his legacy, you know? So at a hundred and three years old, he died, nobody even went to his funeral. So what did you accomplish? Okay, so they're writing about you now?

• 24:11Speaker 05

  Your wife couldn't stand you when she died. Your son couldn't care if you died or not. Okay, my sisters, they don't have a say in it because they're already dead. So, I mean, I don't get it. I don't get, I don't, I don't see how we justify that anymore.

• 24:26Speaker 06

  I'm not justifying it at all. I'm not justified, it's your problem, your situation.

• 24:30Speaker 05

  It's not my problem, Sammy, it is reality.

• 24:32Speaker 06

  It's your reality. There's a lot of people. There's a lot of people who they look at it slightly differently.

• 24:40Speaker 05

  Tell me, let me ask you this. Tell me one person that you know whose family survived and went on to live a wonderful life. In the last thirty years, when the government really can, tell me who. You want to go to Persico, you want to go Colombo, you want to go Gotti.

• 24:53Speaker 06

  There's hardcore guys.

• 24:54Speaker 05

  Tell me anybody.

• 24:54Speaker 06

  Toto, there's a hundred guys.

• 24:56Speaker 05

  Who?

• 24:56Speaker 06

  There's hundreds of them died of old age. Whatever, without going to prison, having done.

• 25:02Speaker 05

  In the last forty years? I don't think so, Sammy, no.

• 25:11Patrick Bet-David?

  Do you think if a Sammy, if a Michael, if a Frank, if a Leonetti had your parenting and your upbringing, meaning your parents, your mom and dad, do you think they would have gone straight? Or do you think it's in them to say, no, I'm still gonna go do the shortcut? What do you think?

• 25:31Speaker 05

  It's a little hard to say about the people you don't know. So let me tell you about Michael because I know Michael the best. There's no doubt that if Michael had the right direction and the right parenting, he'd have been a very successful, legitimate, something important. He's a very smart guy, very shrewd guy, in a good way. A decent guy.

• 25:54Speaker 05

  Respected his father, which is a good thing, except it was the wrong father to respect, right? And I'm gonna guess on the others, just what I know of. I think there are a few people that are genetically inherently bad. Evil, even. But most people are shaped that way, by circumstances. I think.

• 26:17Speaker 05

  I could have gone the other way if my parents kept me in Brooklyn and I was a tough kid.

• 26:25Speaker 05

  As you said, was argumentative. My father taught me how to box, so I wasn't afraid to get into fights. And, I mean, I hope I wouldn't have. I hope something else would have stopped me. But there's a chance I could have gone in the other direction. So when I prosecuted people, it was always a sense of empathy for them. How about Sammy? Don't know. Okay. Don't know. Don't know. First few of them, first few of them were like that. Gotti was a guy who liked killing. There's something sinister and sadistic about John Gotti. You believe that? Mm-hmm. I know that.

• 27:09Patrick Bet-David?

  It's a different Sammy today than two and a half years ago, but I still think you, to the core, there's a part of you that feels the only time you cooperated was against John. I think to the core, you believe you're stuck to your guns and you relate more to Sonny than you do to Michael. Sonny and Michael. I think you don't relate to Michael. I think you relate to Sonny.

• 27:30Speaker 06

  No, that's not true.

• 27:31Patrick Bet-David?

  I think in your eyes, you

• 27:33Speaker 06

  No, that's not true.

• 27:33Patrick Bet-David?

  You defend La Cosa Nostra more than he defends La Cosa Nostra.

• 27:37Speaker 06

  No, that's not true.

• 27:38Patrick Bet-David?

  You don't think you defended more than he does?

• 27:39Speaker 06

  No, no. I defended maybe more than he does. I don't know. Maybe. I look at him as a changed man and doing the right thing. I like him. I don't dislike him. I'm getting like him more and more.

• 27:54Speaker 06

  But I just can't find it in my heart to go against people because they broke the law, like Sonny.

• 28:04Speaker 06

  When he believed in something with all his heart and soul, was willing to die with it. I can't strip him of what he felt and what he was and what he wanted in life.

• 28:18Speaker 06

  Or say he's wrong, or he's nuts, or anything. I'm not saying he's saying that, but I'm saying it. So I defend that. I defend people who are in prisons. I did prison, I've been in prisons twenty-two years. I've bugged into so many guys, white guys, black guys, Hispanic guys, that could be out in the street. And they did crimes, left and right. And it's so brutal to keep them there. Frankie Lucassio is eighty-seven, I think, or maybe even eighty-eight right now. He's in prison since nineteen ninety, thirty-one or thirty-two fucking years. When is enough enough? With judges who beget this obsession.

• 29:04Speaker 06

  And then they'll get somebody now, in our day, they got the covert, "Well, let's give him a compassionate release." Chalmers, rapists, are doing less fucking time than some of these people are doing.

• 29:17Patrick Bet-David?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 06

  So I can't, it's, the whole system bothers me. And every time I see something like that, or I hear something like that, it bothers the fuck out of me that I want to defend it. It's not so much I want to defend, or it's an ultra beyond words,

• 29:38Speaker 06

  but I just feel for it. I feel for people. Now, my father, thank God, and my mother, nobody was in the market in my family. They were good, hard-working people. There's politicians who go out,

• 29:53Speaker 06

  and they hurt all kinds of people.

• 29:55Patrick Bet-David?

  I don't think people would disagree.

• 29:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I, well...

• 30:00Patrick Bet-David?

  And by the way, I don't think, I don't think anybody says, you know, there's lack of respect for Sonny for not, you know, wanting to cooperate. I think it's more personal to him as a son, experiencing that, because it's emotional, it's slightly different.

• 30:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I never suggested I wanted him to cooperate. I don't, he wouldn't do it, I wouldn't even suggest that. All I'm saying is that... You know, there's a point in time where your loyalty to your family has to mean more. I'm not saying my-

• 30:26Speaker 06

  I'm sure that he can have-

• 30:28Speaker 04

  He loved his family.

• 30:29Speaker 06

  His family.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Listen, I'm not saying, my dad loved his family. There's no doubt. He loved me, loved him, he loved... But he didn't do the right thing with our family, that's all I'm saying.

• 30:39Speaker 06

  Okay, but as long as he loved you and he made the main mistakes along the way, maybe he didn't take care of his family like you would have liked him to do, or other people would have liked him to do. But I just, I can't find it in my heart to go against these people who believe in things, and I don't know that they did something completely disgusting, like avoid the bank.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Well, listen. My dad, I hated the system because even if my dad was a bank robber, fifty years, my dad didn't get sentenced for bank robbery. He got sentenced for being Sonny Francise mafia. That's why he got sentenced to fifty.

• 31:20Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 31:21Speaker 04

  It was unheard of at that time.

• 31:22Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 31:22Speaker 04

  Unheard of. But, uh, so, and everything you said about the system, I agree with you a thousand percent.

• 31:29Speaker 05

  Well, that part of the system has always been the case. I mean, you, you sort of, you sort of went up in your mafia standing if you went to prison, and you could take it. First of all, it was a sign that you could take it and you're not gonna squeal. Second, it was, it was a sign that you could, I mean, they get to know you in prison. They, they ran some of the prisons. So that was, they could bond in prison. And they could develop other kinds of crimes in prison. It was a good time for planning. I mean, it's absurd to think of it that way. So, in that sense, it was a more sophisticated use of prison than now, where they become like vicious gangs. But it did move them ahead in the, in the, uh, in the succession, uh, ranks.

• 32:14Speaker 05

  What I don't like about now is, first of all, particularly in the last couple of years, we don't punish criminals. I mean, we, we, we have, in New York, we have no bail. So seventy-five percent of the people that commit crimes, getting pretty close to serious crimes, just go right back out on the street in twelve hours. We find every excuse to parole people early. And that's how you see people with, what was there, a guy with fifty convictions, who just banged some woman in the head, knocked her to the ground, and kicked her. What's this guy doing out on the street?

• 32:48Patrick Bet-David?

  When you were getting locked up, if that Sammy was black, would you have been still doing life to date? Or would you have been treated any differently than the way you were treated?

• 33:00Speaker 06

  I don't know if I would have been treated... I'm Sicilian, I'm considered part-black. But I'm gonna tell you one thing.

• 33:08Patrick Bet-David?

  I'm surprised you admit that.

• 33:09Speaker 06

  Well, you know, I'll tell you something about my black...

• 33:12Patrick Bet-David?

  That movie was a true romance with Christopher Walken when he does that whole scene with...

• 33:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, parts Sicilian, parts Sicilian, he got some black blood. So, but anyway, I was with a ton of black people, I got 22 years in prisons. They have the worst lawyers, they're broke. The worst investigators you can get. And they're fighting the government. The government has the best lawyers you can get. Who's their investigators? The FBI. Common sense tells you they're dead. They're gonna be victims. They can't beat these people. And when black guys would ask me, Sammy, what do you think? Bro, who's your lawyer? Who's your investigators? And they would tell me, "Take a plea. You're not gonna win."

• 34:02Speaker 06

  I didn't even know if they could win or not, but odds are you're gonna lose. And odds are you're gonna get a very stiff penalty. So I think

• 34:14Speaker 06

  prison reform should look into those things. Uh, we, the Italians, inherited the RICO law. It was made for us. Nobody cared because it was just about Italians. But it's spread.

• 34:28Patrick Bet-David?

  Now they care.

• 34:29Speaker 06

  They care now.

• 34:30Patrick Bet-David?

  Now it's...

• 34:31Speaker 06

  It went to black organizations, Hispanics...

• 34:35Patrick Bet-David?

  Went to corporate America.

• 34:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, it went to corporate America. I don't understand how some of these politicians, they don't use that same RICO law against them. The enterprise is the government. You use that along with a few other people, that's RICO. And, but they don't use it against them.

• 34:59Speaker 06

  I was with a lot of guys in prison in the 22 years. Some of them deserve to be there and stay. For the crimes I committed, I deserve a lot longer sentence on my first case than I got. I didn't kill 19 people. I was involved in 19 murders. There's a little bit of a difference, maybe not much. But as soon as I cooperated, they love me. I got five years on the first case. Something's wrong with that scenario.

• 35:34Speaker 04

  100%.

• 35:35Speaker 06

  I think Michael talked on an interview. This guy's got 19 murders, how did they just let him out? They let you out when they want to let you out. They hold you when you want to get held. And black people don't have that influence or that power.

• 35:50Speaker 04

  Well, most of the time, they have a public defender that tells them, "Take a plea."

• 35:54Speaker 06

  Right.

• 35:54Speaker 04

  They don't want to go to trial. They tell you to take it.

• 35:57Patrick Bet-David?

  So you agree with them?

• 35:58Speaker 04

  100%, everything he said, 100%. And he just said it, so I'm only repeating. The government will give a pass to a guy with 19 murders, and they'll lock a guy up that did a drug deal and give him 10 years.

• 36:13Speaker 06

  Well, John got in and actually into a drug deal.

• 36:15Speaker 04

  No, I wasn't referring to anybody.

• 36:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? So the system is so out of whack. If the government wants you, they'll do anything, they'll give you anything.

• 36:26Speaker 06

  And then added to this, you get a good lawyer, sharp lawyer, and you beat the case. What does the government do? They're so vindictive that they'll go back to Congress and change a law to make it foolproof. So as time goes by, people don't have a chance to even try the case. Then you'll put on witnesses, they'll put on witnesses on the case. Sometimes they're just out of line.

• 36:58Patrick Bet-David?

  Over 4,100 convictions, eight, I believe, over 100 years that you went through. You sympathize with all the 4,100? You sympathize?

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Oh, sure, some of them, yes. Some of them, I can see, made terrible mistakes and you wish you didn't have to do it. I mean, they're not all, I mean criminals are not.

• 37:16Speaker 05

  They're not one criminal, they're all different human beings. Some of them become criminals for reasons that you do say, "For the grace of God, go I." And some of them become criminals and you say, "Well, I'd never be like that." But they're very, very different, and the mafia is exactly that. I mean, listening to those tapes, you've got people that would otherwise be very normal people, to people that are complete psychopathic maniacs. And Michael's an interesting, Francis is an interesting example. You know, they always say, "Oh, a lot of these mafia guys could have really accomplished a lot if they'd only gone straight." That's half true and half not true. Some of them are complete morons. But Michael is a guy, you can see it, you can see, well, he hasn't gone far since he's gone straight.

• 38:01Speaker 05

  So that some of it was a product of its times. And a lot of it is exactly what you say, Patrick. It's the influence of the parent. There were mafia guys who wanted to get their families out. Some succeeded, some didn't. In the case of Michael's father, where I would fault him for it, there seems to have been no desire to get Michael out. I can't even see if there was a desire to do it, they attempted to do it, and they didn't succeed. There seems to have been no attempt. But there are mafia families now, into another generation, perfectly legitimate people.

• 38:44Speaker 04

  The system of government that we have today, it's, and to me, in my lifetime, I've never seen as much corruption, and that's, that's a lot to say, in my 70 years, I've never seen as much corruption so out in the open. I've never seen people that are on tape one day saying one thing, the next day lying about it, the day after that lying again and getting away with it. Out and out lies that hurt people. Not that you're just lying, they're hurting people.

• 39:15Speaker 06

  And let me add that, he's got 70 years, I got another six years overhead, and I agree with it. I've never seen anything like it. It's incredible.

• 39:25Patrick Bet-David?

  Would it be fair to say that the government who took out the mob is starting to now act like the mob? Going around bullying people because they can?

• 39:34Speaker 05

  Unfortunately, I would say that the FBI in the last couple of years is, I don't recognize it. They really should. If they can have an office that develops these warrants for the FBI and presents it to a judge, they should have another office whose job it is to critically analyze them and point out the things that are missing.

• 39:56Speaker 06

  You know, go back to what I said before. What is prison? It's money for people. They even open up private prisons and some heavyweights open these prisons, make a ton of money to house us. Do you think they want us out? No.

• 40:13Speaker 04

  No. Patrick, I spoke in, a couple of years back on 9/11. I spoke in front of the senate staff. A couple of senators were in there and they asked me about prison reform. And I turned to one of them, I don't want to mention his name, and I said, "Do you care about your constituents?" He said, "Of course I do. In your community, of course I do." I said, "Well, why would you put people in prison that are around other prisoners, they learn nothing in there, not rehabilitate them, in some cases make them more hardened in there, and then let them come out and go back into the same community and expect them to be law-abiding citizens?"

• 40:51Patrick Bet-David?

  It's a training ground.

• 40:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. I said, "If you cared about your constituents, you would rehabilitate these people." Because what people don't understand, I think, is being in prison is the punishment. You're not supposed to punish people more in prison unless they're unruly, you know, they're a danger to themselves or to somebody else. People like that, some of them just can't be rehabilitated. But for the most part, most people can. In my experience in prison, most people want to do something to do something better when they get out, but we don't believe in that. I think now I'm just starting to hear about it.

• 41:22Patrick Bet-David?

  What would you propose? How would you do it?

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Let people learn trades in there. First of all, they give too much time out in this country. It's ridiculous. We're the only country in the world. They give too much time out. How do you give a guy 300 years? It's ridiculous. How do you give a guy 40, 50 years in prison for, even for bank robbery? When nobody got killed, nobody got hurt. You rob the bank, it's a money crime. Do you know what? You're better off today killing somebody than robbing the government. Or defrauding some, you get more time in the federal system, okay, for fraud than you do in many state systems for violent crimes.

• 41:59Speaker 06

  I'll go one step further, and he's right. Guys who come out of prison don't have two cents, most of them. Some of them have family who'll help them, and that's great, that's their shot. They don't have any, they're a convicted felon, they don't have any opportunity. They can't become, go to college in certain cases, they can't become doctors, they can't become lawyers, they can't become a fucking dentist. What do you want this guy to do? And he's maybe, let's say, a drug guy who dealt drugs, who's making ten, fifteen, twenty thousand a week or a month, or whatever you want to call it. So you want this guy, after doing time, to come out and go flip fucking hamburgers for

• 42:44Speaker 06

  minimum wage? And you don't think he's gonna recommit? There's so many things, now, there used to be, when I was in prison, that they taught you how to make clothing, and they would give it to the military, or they, you made jeans, certain places made certain things, furniture, all kinds of things. And they were getting, I think it was three dollars an hour. That guy shut down because companies on the outside said, "We can't compete with those wages." So they shut it down. It's not about competing with the wage. Give it to the military. Give it to somebody.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  The government helping the government.

• 43:23Speaker 06

  And you're helping, and you're helping society, because now this guy comes out with a trade.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  The government gives a sweetheart contract to somebody, they make a few bucks, and the government overpays. That's what they'd rather do, rather than do it the right way.

• 43:35Speaker 06

  The whole system is...

• 43:37Patrick Bet-David?

  But you do believe it can be fixed? You do believe there are things that can be done to be fixed?

• 43:40Speaker 06

  If somebody had, yeah...

• 43:42Patrick Bet-David?

  Or is it, is it a business model that they don't want to get away from, like, maybe this is a better question to ask. Who doesn't want it to be fixed?

• 43:50Speaker 06

  The people who are making money on it.

• 43:52Patrick Bet-David?

  Who's making money on it?

• 43:53Speaker 06

  Politicians.

• 43:54Patrick Bet-David?

  How?

• 43:55Speaker 06

  How about the federal unions? How many people they hire and bring in, and jobs, and, in every, in every way, shape, and form, they make money off of it.

• 44:04Speaker 04

  What does it cost taxpayers to, to house one inmate for a year?

• 44:09Patrick Bet-David?

  If it was a fifty two thousand, some, some big.

• 44:11Speaker 04

  Depends on where, but it's in that area.

• 44:12Speaker 06

  You know, let me give you a more statistic that I heard a long time ago. Okay, I don't know how many people are in prison today. But when I looked at this, I think there was close to two million prisoners in this country.

• 44:27Speaker 04

  Two and a half now.

• 44:27Speaker 06

  Two and a half now, alright.

• 44:29Speaker 04

  Prisons are a branch of the government, okay, they put people to work. They build more prisons, it's, it's economic. Look, you don't have the smartest people in the world running the government. They don't think like you, well, I can make money in a different place. And, and aside from that, they're making people believe they're smart, or, or they're hard. They're law and order people, they're hard on crime, and they're building these prisons.

• 44:50Speaker 06

  Me and you are that now, and we have this little scam with the prisons. We voted for Patrick, he's a pretty smart guy. He don't know, how do we, how do they make your money? That's how we get off. He don't even know how the fuck we make money.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, he doesn't.

• 45:04Speaker 06

  And he's a smart guy.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Cause you're thinking. You're thinking of better ways to make money. Do you think the federal government has your mentality?

• 45:11Speaker 06

  No.

• 45:12Speaker 04

  Patrick, I wish they did, we, we'd have a lot better place, you know, a lot better system in place.

• 45:17Patrick Bet-David?

  Black Lives Matter says this, Democrats say this, Republicans say this, independents say this. Anybody and everybody that campaigns says prison reform. I don't know a political party that doesn't say prison reform.

• 45:30Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:30Patrick Bet-David?

  Every one of them is saying it, so why don't we have it?

• 45:32Speaker 04

  Why don't they do it?

• 45:33Speaker 06

  Because they, they could say everything, like we said before, they say everything you wanna hear that makes sense, but they have no intention of ever doing it. They have no intention, here's another thing that Trump destroyed, he destroyed himself. All of these little scams in the government, he was smart enough to know about that. And he tried to fuck with the whole system. And the system made him up.

• 46:01Speaker 06

  He tried to expose what they were doing. Fake media, this, that, you heard him all the time.

• 46:09Speaker 06

  He got rid of all of those, uh, things, rules and regulations and stuff. He knew what was wrong with the country. He's a pretty smart guy, he was in business. He knows what was wrong, and he attacked it. All of those things are making money for people.

• 46:29Speaker 06

  And they destroyed it.

• 46:32Speaker 05

  It's a little bit like what you were saying about all these things. Where they take something good and they ruin it by doing it too much. You know, even certain kinds of crimes. At a certain level, if there's a little cheating, nobody minds. All of a sudden, you get it to Madoff, wow, and then you crack down on everything. The last time we let crime go up, which was in the late 60s. Murder went over a thousand for the first time, I think in 1969. Didn't go below a thousand until 1976. Which is why if we don't get control of it right now, it's gonna get control of us.

• 47:09Patrick Bet-David?

  And you're saying to make it even stricter? You're saying we're not, our punishment right now is not strict enough? You're saying to be even worse than what it is today? That's the solution?

• 47:20Speaker 05

  We took criminals out on the street. The people who are committing the crimes now are people that, when I was mayor, were sitting in jail for four and five years. Now they sit in jail for eight months.

• 47:36Speaker 06

  I was six and a half years straight in the fucking hole. And I did a lot of thinking and reading and everything too. I must have did eight billion pushups. I'm 76, I'm still in good shape thanks to that.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  To put that time, and I gotta tell you something. I learned through that experience, we weren't meant to be solo criminals. We were meant to be social. And to do that kind of time in solitary, you gotta have a very strong constitution to come out of that.

• 48:06Speaker 06

  When you're violent in prison, killing people, you're beating people up, and they lose control of you, that's where you go. When I went in prison, I went in there almost immediately. I didn't even have a fight yet.

• 48:20Speaker 04

  No, you don't belong at home. It's just like, I was in there for administrative detention, whatever that meant. I never even got a shot in prison. But they put me in there for that reason. But it's not easy, Patrick. I don't care who you are, it's not easy to spend that time in solitary.

• 48:36Speaker 06

  No, I'm gonna tell people, Michael, I tell people, listen, go home. I'm gonna pay you. Go in your bedroom. Television, nice, comfortable bed. Close the door for six weeks.

• 48:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:50Speaker 06

  Don't come out. Don't do nothing. Let one of your kids or somebody slide some food under your door so you could eat. You could even stick something through the door, let them wash your clothes, and stay in that room for six weeks. See how you feel. Most people can't even do that.

• 49:05Speaker 04

  Can't do it. Sammy, a lot of people couldn't even stay in their own house during COVID.

• 49:09Speaker 06

  No, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. They can't stay in their own house, their own room, with some comforts. I met a couple of guys when I first got out, a couple of real tough guys. A bike guy. He just got out of the hole. He did eight months in the hole. Hey Sammy, how long have you heard of me? I didn't know him. Wow, he said, just got out of the hole for eight months. It's a bitch. I said, no, I know. You were in the hole, right? Yeah. How long were you in the hole? Six and a half years. What? How the fuck, how were you even talking to me? How were you still normal?

• 49:43Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 49:44Speaker 06

  I said, don't bank on it. Maybe I'm not that normal anymore, but I knew they wanted to break me. There's no reason for me to be in the hole. And I just got up and walked, like, the A V X truck, back and forth, talking to myself. They wanna break you, bud.

• 49:59Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 50:00Speaker 06

  And I'm not gonna break. I'm not gonna give them that. Maybe I'll drop dead in here, but I'm not gonna break. And that kept me whole.

• 50:09Speaker 04

  Coming up, on Mafia States of America.

• 50:13Speaker 06

  I was in prison with Larry Masler. Larry Masler told me, we knew that you guys talked, and we knew that John gave you the hit. It would have been a massive shootout if you would have came in on this hit. But I was taken off of it.

• 50:28Speaker 04

  When I got out of the car, Jimmy grabbed my arm, and he said, I'm gonna tell you something you're not gonna like. And I said, what? He said, your father was in there before you this morning, and he, I mean, this evening, and he threw you under the bus. He didn't help you one bit. But I can tell you, if that night doesn't happen, I would have never walked away from that life.

• 50:56Speaker 08

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• 51:09Speaker 08

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  America's sweet.

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