Family Therapist: The #1 Sign You Were Raised by Narcissistic Parents

I'm going on tour! Come see The School of Greatness LIVE in person! Get my new book Make Money Easy here! Most of us unknowingly live under what family therapy expert Jerry Wise calls "the family trance" – a powerful force that shapes our identity without our awareness. After 45 years helping thousands break free from dysfunctional family patterns, Jerry reveals how our adult struggles often stem from inherited emotional programming that creates a "malignant normalcy" within us. Through our conversation, he shares the revolutionary concept of self-differentiation – the courageous process of separating your true self from your family's expectations while remaining emotionally connected. When Jerry states "whatever issues I leave unresolved, who gets to resolve them? My children," I realized this might be the most transformative conversation we've had about breaking generational patterns. His profound insight that "it's never too late to have a happy childhood" offers hope to anyone trapped in cycles of criticism, people-pleasing, or emotional reactivity that originated in their family system. Get Jerry’s Free 84-Minute 'Self-Differentiation' TrainingGet more from Jerry on YouTubeIn this episode you will learn:Why criticizing yourself harshly is often your "family self" talking, not your authentic voiceHow to identify if you had narcissistic parents and what that means for your adult relationshipsThe three levels of resistance you'll face when changing family dynamics and how to overcome themWhy trying to change your parents is futile, but changing yourself transforms the entire systemThe difference between setting outer boundaries and the crucial inner boundaries needed for healingHow the "fantasy" of finally getting parental approval keeps many adults emotionally stuckWhy it's never too late to have a happy childhood through self-parenting and inner child workThe three core elements needed for lasting change: self-awareness, self-regulation, and self-differentiationFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1747For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Gabby Bernstein – greatness.lnk.to/1714SCJason Wilson – greatness.lnk.to/1725SCMel Robbins – greatness.lnk.to/1710SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  There are two big things happening at one time that I've never done before. I'm going on a book tour for my new book, Make Money Easy, and I'm doing a podcast tour at the same time. It is going to be big and I'm going to seven cities in 10 days. Get your friends, get your family, bring everyone you know to these cities. I'm coming to Austin, Texas, New York, Boston. We're going to Nashville, then we're going to Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. Make sure to get your tickets right now. Go to lewishouse.com/tour. Again, bring everyone you know. If you're looking to create more financial freedom and abundance in your life and you want to see massive guests live on the School of Greatness show,

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  get your tickets. I can't wait to see you there.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  People will always ask me, am I a narcissist? And I'll go, do you ever feel guilty? A narcissist is not going to feel that guilt. What have they done wrong? They're always right. Why would they apologize? You made them do it. Oh, my gosh. Or they did it for your good. Jerry is a life and relationship counselor.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  For 40 years, he is a professional in psychotherapy and family therapy, and now in life coaching. Please, everyone, welcome Jerry Wise.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  So many people grow up under the family trance. They don't understand the dysfunction of their family because it's been normalized. Here I am criticizing myself and cutting myself down internally and hating myself. And many will go, don't look at any of that. Let's just try to be nicer to yourself. Versus, wait a minute. Let's get mom and dad out of the way. It's never too late to have a happy childhood. So let's start now.

• 1:51Lewis Howes?

  What are the warning signs, then, that show up in adult children of narcissistic parents?

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Let's then take a look at that.

• 2:04Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest today. We have the inspiring Jerry Wise in the house. And a quick bio about Jerry. He's the leading expert in healing from family and relationship dysfunction through self differentiation. You've been doing this work for over 45 years as a therapist and a coach, and you've helped thousands of people worldwide break free from dysfunctional family patterns and discover their true selves. And this could possibly be one of the most powerful conversations we have here. I'm not just saying that, even though we've done this show for 12 years, because in my mind, we've talked a lot about narcissism and relationships and narcissism,

• 2:46Lewis Howes?

  but we haven't covered if you have experienced life with a narcissistic parent and the clear signs of if your parents were narcissistic or on the spectrum in any ways, and how that impacts you for everything in your life. And so I'm curious, if we could start Jerry with, what are the clear signs that you could start reflecting and asking yourself if one of your parents were narcissistic in any way?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  One of the things certainly that I found is that so many people grow up under the family trance. And so the family trance, they don't understand the dysfunction of their family because it's been normalized. And I've used the term malignant normalcy. Because then if I grew up abused and I'm in an abusive relationship, I've normalized the abuse as not something I like, but I will accept, or it's kind of, it's kind of normal. It's what, but that's a malignant normalcy. That's not a normalcy you want to have.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  And so when people, when I think about helping people see, and really that's what my work is about. It's to help people see outside the box

• 4:13Speaker 01

  and to see in a broader way so much of all the dynamics that are going on within the family. And if you have a narcissistic family, or there's all kinds of other dysfunctional families too. There are some universals that go along with that. But when you say narcissistic family, I think when you start to recognize, hey, they've always been controlling, they're, they lack empathy, they guilt and shame. They could be abusive, but they don't have to be abusive to be narcissistic. They love you and they have a plan for your life. And I say love in a, and with air quotes.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  That we used to say that in religious circles, God loves you and he has a plan for your life. Well, the narcissist loves you and they have a plan for your life and you better follow it.

• 5:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow, or else.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Or else. And the narcissist will be very self-absorbed. Everything is basically about them. That it always comes back to them. That's the whole focus. And if you have parents who have some of those type of traits, there are other traits, but some of those. People will always ask me, am I a narcissist? And I'll go, do you ever feel guilty? Oh, yeah, all the time. Then you're not.

• 5:35Lewis Howes?

  You're just dysfunctional.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  You're just dysfunctional. No, right. A narcissist is not going to feel that guilt. They don't feel, what, what have they done wrong? They're always right. So that why would I feel guilt about anything or shame? So if, if you felt that, you're probably less likely to be a narcissist. If you, but a parent can be a narcissistic parent and they, they don't, they can abuse you. They can criticize you, they can, but they'll never go, oh, that my bad.

• 6:07Lewis Howes?

  No, that would. They want to apologize.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Do that. Why would they apologize? You made them do it. You made them do it or they did it for your good. So why would I ever need to say, I'm sorry? There's no need to say I'm sorry.

• 6:25Lewis Howes?

  What's the worst thing a parent could do then to their kids over and over again? That will almost surely make them dysfunctional as an adult. Is it never apologizing to them when, you know, they?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  That, that's too symptomatic. That's too superficial. The thing that's going to make them more dysfunctional as an adult.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Is to not break their own cycle from their own past, bringing that cycle to their current nuclear family, and not knowing it.

• 7:04Lewis Howes?

  So bringing the generational trauma onward.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  And the generational programming, and the generational emotional wifi that's been going on and they just bring that right into here. That's gonna mess them up more than ever. Now, does abuse and narcissistic meanness, do all those things affect the kid? Of course it does.

• 7:26Lewis Howes?

  Screaming and all this stuff, yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Exactly, of course it's going to. But it's not the screaming that's the underlying problem.

• 7:34Lewis Howes?

  That's a symptom of something.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  That's a symptom of how the family has been dysfunctional and toxic. And it can come out in different ways. Narcissism, alcoholism, abuse, workaholism, sex addiction. It can come out in gambling and all kinds of symptomatic ways. But underneath all of that is an enmeshment to a family whose trance has never been broken.

• 8:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow, the origin family.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  The origin family. It's never been broken. And now you're just living it out. Only John's living it out that way, Mary's living it out that way. But that's the underlying important dynamic.

• 8:18Lewis Howes?

  And if we don't break the trance of the family, the origin family of ours, if we don't break that trance, then we're just going to relive that pattern in our adult relationships as well.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  In some way. And it may not even look like the way mom and dad did it. But the pattern's still there. So people will go, well, I'm not like my parents. Oh, oh, hold on just a second. Let me ask you. But what you're doing is the same theme and it has origins in your family of origin. You may have chosen the opposite, but up 180 degrees from.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Unhealthy is unhealthy. So people will go, oh, well, I'm all the way over here. Oh, now you're just a class B unhealthy, rather than a class A unhealthy person. And you feel superior over them because you're over here.

• 9:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  You haven't broken the cycle. You're living the pendulum life.

• 9:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I'm not screaming at my partner.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  I'm not screaming at my partner like they do.

• 9:18Lewis Howes?

  But I'm controlling.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  But I'm being controlling and I still may be self-absorbed or judgmental or any number of other kinds of things.

• 9:27Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Here's the real question then. If we start to think about, oh, maybe my parents had some narcissistic tendencies. And I'm starting to think about it and I'm starting to evaluate my childhood and realize, oh, I thought this was just normal because it's the only thing I knew.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  How many families did we grow up in?

• 9:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, right? And it wasn't as bad as that family, so I gotta be grateful for this.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we should.

• 9:51Lewis Howes?

  And my parents were loving at times and they gave us and they were doing the best they could. So that I can't think of them as narcissistic, but we start to internalize that. What are the warning signs then that show up in adult children of narcissistic parents?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Let's then take a look at that. Mom and dad or whoever was narcissistic, hypercritical and judgmental. Now, I then grew up and say, I'm not gonna be like that. But what am I to myself? Hypercritical and judgmental. So an adult child of a narcissistic family often will have unbounded guilt, shame, criticalness, hypercriticalness, uh, very hard on themselves. So they just take the voice from here and just live it inside themselves.

• 10:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Everything is that way. Uh, people go, oh, well, they, they screamed all the time. So many times I've said, so how many times have you internally screamed at yourself? I don't scream at other people. I didn't say other people. I said, "You." "Oh, well, yeah, I can be pretty nasty to me." "You know, you stupid, dah dah dah dah dah." And I said, "You're just reliving this only in a different way." And so it's all embryonic in the family. So everything that's happening out here, the problem, and that's what I think, that's why I use the term, "The problem is..."

• 11:32Speaker 01

  The solution is not near the problem. Also, the problem may not be near the symptom. Here I am criticizing myself and cutting myself down internally and hating myself. And narcissists, adult sort of narcissists can definitely hate themselves. Because they've been judged and criticized and, you know, emotionally hurt so many different ways, shamed. So this is what they're doing out here. And they're now doing this as adults to themselves internally and going, "Well, what's the solution?" And many will go, "Don't look at any of that.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Let's just try to be nicer to yourself." Which is not bad advice, but it's superficial advice. And it may not hold. And then you'll try it and then give it up. And you'll try it and give it up. Versus, "Wait a minute, let's get mom and dad out of you."

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  That's what we want to do. Because we... And do you recognize that's not you? When you are criticizing yourself that way, you're gonna be under the hypnosis and the trance that this is me doing it to me. And I go, "Let me give you some good news. It's not you doing it to you. It's your family still doing it to you through you."

• 13:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  There's a difference, and that's a huge difference.

• 13:07Lewis Howes?

  And so, as adult children...

• 13:11Lewis Howes?

  What should we be thinking about if we felt like we had a dysfunctional childhood? Should we be thinking about how do I get myself to be self differentiated from my parents and my family? How do I block my family completely? How do I heal the past? Like, what should we be thinking about as we come into awareness as adult children of dysfunctional childhoods or narcissistic parents?

• 13:36Speaker 01

  And I think it's a great question. But your question also has within it a certain paradigm, as all questions do. Every question has the answer in it. Every question that someone asks, the answer is in their question. And so you were asking about, so do I separate myself from my family? Do I, you know? And certainly if someone, if families are abusive and toxic and have no interest in changing, well, then we have to look at some no contact or, you know, we may need to go that far. But self differentiation, what I tend to think when someone has a family that's narcissistic,

• 14:18Speaker 01

  does the person that I'm working with or talking to or the adult child of the narcissist, need greater self differentiation, which is an emotional state and a maturity state? Or do they need to physically separate? If you physically separate, you still need to emotionally separate.

• 14:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  So it doesn't solve the problem. Now, but I don't want you there being abused, you know, and have been taken and, you know, there's common sense to this as well. But self differentiation is, is the, do you have the maturity and respect for yourself? That if you had grown up in a healthy family, this is the way you'd be.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  That's self differentiation. And people go, well, how can I do that? I didn't grow up in a healthy family. It's never too late to have a happy childhood.

• 15:17Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  So let's start now.

• 15:20Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  And are you gonna take care of yourself or are you not? And adult children or narcissists don't know how to take care of themselves. They've never even been told that's a good thing to do. Many of them would say, well, my church or my whatever teaches me I should not do that because that's selfish. And I go, no, no, that's not what they're teaching. Or I don't know, they may be teaching that, certainly possible. But that's not what, that, that isn't what self-care is about. Self-focus is healthy. We've grown up with no self-focus and only focused on the others in the family. Now we want to do self-focus, which means inner boundaries?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Where when you say, well, Jerry, you're, you know, you're such a bad son. And I just think you're worthless. And inside I go, so what?

• 16:18Speaker 01

  And? Because you are you and I am me. If we are too enmeshed, then what you said will drive me crazy.

• 16:30Lewis Howes?

  And then I'll try to overcompensate or approval or whatever.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  I'll try to, I'll be reactive, I'll get mad. I'll say, that's what you've always treated me. Why don't you stop treating me that way? You've always been this way and da, da, da, versus. Okay. I, I see that's how you feel. I don't feel that way about me. But it's okay if you do. I mean, you have a right to feel that way about me if you want. I don't care, I hope it helps you out, I don't know.

• 17:02Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard as adult children to break the family trance though? Of conditioning from parents guilting or you need to come visit me more? Why don't you call me more? You're not doing this more or whatever?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Our fantasies. We're still children.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  I want the parent to love me. I want them to accept me. I want them to take care of my needs. I've always wanted a parent who would care. And I'm not ready to give up that fantasy.

• 17:37Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  And if I could help someone give up those fantasies, they'll grow like nobody's business.

• 17:46Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, really?

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Oh, they just go.

• 17:49Lewis Howes?

  It's the fantasy that holds us back.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  That's part of it, yes. The trance and what we've learned is normal. And then there's the fantasy of when you don't get it growing up, then you will always be looking for it. I want you to come to me and we work out, help me helping you to stop looking for it.

• 18:13Lewis Howes?

  Stop looking for what? A beautiful childhood or whatever?

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Beautiful childhood, my parents love me. They need to treat me right. Maybe someday they'll accept me. Maybe it's not, it's a fantasy. It is a fantasy. And fantasies mess up adulthood. Goals don't mess up adulthood, but fantasies do. And emotional fantasies.

• 18:36Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  And there's creativity in fantasies and things. But this fantasy of I'm gonna have a happy childhood. I'm trying to have a happy childhood, but every time I go back at Christmas time or the holiday time, it always ends up being a mess.

• 18:51Lewis Howes?

  They just judge me or never gonna be.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  And they judge me and they do the same thing. I try to be nicer and I bring more food or I bring the kids or whatever they're trying to do to get this so that their parents will one day go, you are okay.

• 19:06Lewis Howes?

  So what should adult children stop trying to do with their parents?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Stop needing them as parents?

• 19:13Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 19:15Speaker 01

  When does parenting end?

• 19:17Lewis Howes?

  Good question. I don't know.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Eighteen?

• 19:20Lewis Howes?

  Is it supposed to end though? At eighteen for?

• 19:23Speaker 01

  I hope. Aren't you gonna be an adult?

• 19:26Lewis Howes?

  That's the goal.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Adults don't need a parent.

• 19:30Lewis Howes?

  But some people live with their parents till they're thirty or?

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Adults may wish or want to have mothers and fathers. I'm not, I'm not saying break up your whole family because you turned eighteen. I'm talking about parenting. Parenting is parent to child, not parent to adult. Of course, there are exceptions. Of course, there are people with disabilities or prob- I understand there's all kinds of

• 19:58Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Variations, but generally if I tell people, I go, and, and what? What do you need your parent to do? Well, I need them to treat me right. And I'm going, why do you need to treat them? Why do you need them to treat you better? Why? Well, I'll never be happy if I- There you are. You've just hooked together. You'll never be happy unless this fantasy comes true. And I can already tell you, it's not gonna come true because it's been going on for thirty-five years. And I doubt if your parents are gonna just one day go, you know, could miracles happen? Of course miracles gonna happen. But I'm not in the miracle business. So, I, I, that, if they do, they do.

• 20:44Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting because the people watching and listening right now, if you're listening, if you're watching this right now, I want you to leave a comment below and say, if you had a happy, like if your parents loved you, supported you, approved of you, most of the time, comment below, happy childhood. If you feel like your parent, you could never get the approval of your parents, they were never satisfied with you, they're always judging and critical of you, type in challenging childhood in the comments below. And I'm curious, what is the pro and con of having a healthy relationship with your parents?

• 21:24Lewis Howes?

  Versus an unhealthy relationship with your parents, wanting them to approve and love you as adults?

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Right. Well, that's because then yourself won't develop.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  You are living a pseudo self, waiting on them to give you a self by them going, "You're wonderful and we love you." And the thing is, the same is true with if parents have caused trauma, once you become an adult, they can no longer fix that for you, ever. They could say, "I'm sorry." They could be remorseful. But I keep telling clients or coaching people,

• 22:11Speaker 01

  they can't fix it. This is now yours to fix. Whatever they did is now yours to fix, not theirs to fix.

• 22:20Lewis Howes?

  Even if they do apologize, it still may not solve the problem. Yeah, you'll have to fix it still.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Exactly. How does that fix it?

• 22:27Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  And so they always go back, "I'm gonna confront them and tell them, and you're just gonna get caught up in the system even deeper."

• 22:35Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  You're gonna go down in the quicksand even more if you go do that. And I always tell people, "The time to confront people is when you don't need to. If you need to, you're probably out of sync."

• 22:49Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, not that we can't confront some people. I gotta confront if they're not giving me my coffee. You know, I gotta... But generally, I'm talking about this emotional stuff.

• 23:01Lewis Howes?

  You know, it's interesting that you say that. I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And I've talked about it openly on this show many times. But for those of you here the first time, it was something that haunted me for 25 years. For 25 years, I held on to it. I felt shame, I felt sadness, I felt anger, rage, all these different things. And it was a movie that played in my mind over and over again for 25 years. And it drove me, without even knowing it, unconsciously, to protect myself, to defend myself, to...

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Not trust?

• 23:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, not trust. If someone's trying to take advantage of me, I'm gonna, you know, get big and strong and all these different things. And I need to be right, and I need to win. And in some ways, it helped me accomplish certain goals, but left me feeling very empty as well.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Bad things have upsides, bad things have downsides. Good things have upsides, good things have downsides. All. But sorry to interrupt.

• 24:04Lewis Howes?

  And I got to a point when I was thirty, um, so twenty-five years later, where it was too much, it was too much, and it all kind of came out, right? It came out at one point after about a year of just breakdowns continuing to happen, where it forced me to look within and stop blaming everyone else of like, why is these things happening in my life? And it got to a point where I said, okay, I'm actually going to dive deeper and start working on myself and start unpacking things from childhood and start really reflecting on these things. And I went to workshops and all the therapy, coaching, all the different things. And it got to a point where I finally opened up and talked about it in a safe environment.

• 24:48Lewis Howes?

  And then I started talking about it and letting my, my family know, some of my friends and started talking about it publicly. And I don't think everyone should talk about their stuff publicly, but I had a platform, I felt the need to, I felt pulled to, I felt like inspired to. And there came to a point where maybe it was a couple of years after I started to process and, and heal that journey and self-regulate the memory and self-differentiate from that wound, where I was like, do I need to confront this person? And I don't even know where the person is. I don't know where the person is or if they're alive or not. But I was like, I, what's that going to do for me? I got to a point where I was like, I don't need to and I'm at peace with it.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  But what should I do about?

• 25:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  That.

• 25:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, but I didn't feel like I need to confront this to like, finish the, the job of my healing. I was like, this is my work to do. And no matter what this person would say, it's not going to help me.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  What would be the positive outcome of that?

• 25:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  I, I'd not, you can if you want, but I'm just trying to think, what's the utility of it? If it provides some, something, okay. But I don't know that I would go through all the, try to find them and confront them.

• 26:04Lewis Howes?

  Unless it's a family member that you want to talk about something.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Or, right, some ongoing relationship or something, right.

• 26:11Lewis Howes?

  This is something interesting you said. It's never too late to have a happy childhood. If we had a horrible childhood and we're in our 20s, or in our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and we just think, man, my childhood was miserable, it was challenging. I don't have many good memories. How can you have a good childhood as an adult if you, all you had is bad memories as a child?

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Great question.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  When do you stop being a child?

• 26:39Lewis Howes?

  When you become a parent, when you grow up, when you remove yourself from the parent?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  When do you stop having a child inside you?

• 26:49Lewis Howes?

  Never?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Start your childhood now.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  By you becoming the parent to yourself?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Self-parenting, reparenting. And now I'm going to ask myself, what would you like to go do to play? Because just like with a tree, a tree starts out with a little branch and grows up to be a big tree, but the little tree hasn't gone away. I mean, it's still in there, it's still a part of the, the growth, and we're the same way. It's called our inner child. And the inner child, we have all the rest of our lives. And many people actually, because of their family of origin, abuse their inner child because

• 27:37Speaker 01

  that's what happened when they grew up. And so they reparent, they parent themselves the way their parents parented them.

• 27:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  And that's the whole story of connectedness. Parents parent you, you parent you, and, and that we continue on.

• 27:55Lewis Howes?

  And you parent your kids.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  And then you parent your kids and then adjust. So if you can get your insides straightened out.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Generations will be grateful.

• 28:08Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  To you, and I literally mean generations. Because it probably took about five generations to get to here. This dysfunctional, probably five to get here. You can change the world if you change you. And even now, I still work on my self differentiation. I have a 39 year old son. And I do that because I want to have as good a relationship as I can have with him. Because whatever issues I leave unresolved for me, who gets to resolve them?

• 28:45Lewis Howes?

  Him.

• 28:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 28:49Lewis Howes?

  I saw a clip of an interview online of someone, a really successful billionaire entrepreneur, probably in his 70s. And he said the key to success in life was having adult children that still want to hang out with you, not because of your money or your success.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  But because you're a good guy.

• 29:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Good person.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  And, and that's why, right, it's not about this is my property is the kids. They're not my property. And I would like to have a relationship where now whenever, when I hug Andrew, I can give him a kiss on the, on the neck. And I even asked him, and I told him, if you don't want me to do that, I won't. You're an adult.

• 29:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  I don't want to embarrass you. He said, my friends just think it's fabulous. They wish their dad would do that.

• 29:44Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  And so, because I felt that's what I wanted to do. But I give him permission to be him. I mean, I'm not gonna do something you don't want me to do.

• 29:53Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What I'm hearing you say is that the key, the key to setting up your family legacy to have the best. Or the healthiest lives they can have is to start by healing the child within you.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Healing the child within you and self-differentiating the adult within you.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  So we have both those works.

• 30:17Lewis Howes?

  Okay, let's, let's break down.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Going on.

• 30:20Lewis Howes?

  What, what would be the, and, and healing the child within you is not a, an overnight thing. What would be the keys to whether someone says, ah, I don't need to work on my inner child. That seems like baloney or just, it's not, ah, it's not for me. I do a lot of my own work already. I don't need to dive deeper into this stuff. It seems like whatever.

• 30:41Lewis Howes?

  But if they were like, ah, let me listen to this and just see what he's talking about. What would be the first three keys or steps to addressing how to heal the inner child within us?

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Well, and if they would say, I don't need to work on my inner child. I would say, now you've already told me what you don't know. Because if you don't understand that or work that way, you're going to be blinded. Which is your right. I mean, I.

• 31:12Lewis Howes?

  Live like how you want.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Live, you don't have to do any inner child work. I'm just telling you the way human beings function, you know, and that while it is a construct or a metaphor, you know, the inner child, it is that, but it truly is a part. We are biological. We, we are biological creatures and, and so we have that part of us. I'm never not the seventh grader. I'm never not the third grader. I'm never not the 50-year-old. I'm, I'm all of those. And so, but particularly in childhood is where we get a lot of that programming going on that carries over to older ages.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  And so when we think about, would you know if your inner child wanted you to do something?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  And if you don't know, do you think that could be problematic?

• 32:12Lewis Howes?

  Probably, yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  And many people will go, I don't think I want to work on inner child stuff. That's all psychological mumbo jumbo. Okay, well, that's fine. You don't have to. However, when you are hypercritical of yourself

• 32:32Speaker 01

  and very down on yourself, who are you down on?

• 32:38Speaker 01

  The adult self? The inner child? Probably more likely the inner child. Because you're going to act like your parents to the child.

• 32:47Lewis Howes?

  Man.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  That's just what we do. And so knowing that can be helpful because if you become a collaborator with your inner child, it stabilizes you. If you're not, then you're always fighting yourself in business, in success, in money, in jobs, in marriages, in relationships. You're always going to be fighting yourself. And if we talk long enough, I'll prove that to you. You know, I would prove that to you.

• 33:22Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  How that's what's happening.

• 33:26Lewis Howes?

  So when we are in conflict with ourselves or hypercritical of ourselves, whether it be our adult or inner child self, how is that hurting us or helping us?

• 33:36Speaker 01

  The thing is, first of all, I might say you're not being your true self.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  You're being a pseudo self to yourself. You're being the family super self to yourself.

• 33:53Lewis Howes?

  When you're acting that way.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  When you're acting that way.

• 33:55Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  That's not you, but you think it's you. And I'm going, it really isn't. It's...

• 34:02Lewis Howes?

  You're bringing the family trance.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Trance, Wi-Fi, super self, we call it, because all the family connects to this big super self that's all enmeshed emotionally. And we even know biologically. There's a way to describe it. And that you're now not, you're not, when somebody's going, and I'm fine with being hypercritical of myself. I'm not gonna look at my inner child, but every time I hear you being self-critical in a negative way, you know, towards yourself, I'm going, why are you not being yourself?

• 34:37Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Cause would yourself do that? And they'd probably go, well, no, I wouldn't. Then, then where is that coming from? You know, well, it's just what I've always done. Oh, well, now, now we're going to all what's always been done. Okay. My point.

• 34:56Lewis Howes?

  But what's always been done doesn't mean it's the best way that you can live your life.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and all of us have part, negative parts of all those things. But I wanna have fewer, or less, I wanna have less of a pseudo self, less of a non-real self that's me. And all that hypercriticalness is being the family self.

• 35:18Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  That's your family self. And I'm going, you wanna be successful by being your family self? And you tell me how bad that all was? You're doing it, you're repeating it right now.

• 35:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you may not be doing this to others, but you're doing it to you.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, I don't do that to other people. Okay, do you ever do it to you? Oh, well, yeah, that's how I'm successful, cause I'm so critical of myself.

• 35:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it helps me be driven.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Helps me be driven and like, that doesn't sound like a authentic self.

• 35:53Lewis Howes?

  What do you think it is if our inner child was able to speak authentically 100% of the time? And say what our inner child truly wants and desires? And they had a voice? What would our inner child be saying all the time?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  I'm always so happy that I am loved now. I'm always at peace because I'm not in conflict now. I'm, I'm always looking forward to new adventures now. Uh, because it's, it's life as it should be. And those kind of. Statements if you're talking about the inner child talking. And thank you so much for getting the family out of you.

• 36:47Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  And that we can just be us. We can just be a real us.

• 36:55Lewis Howes?

  How does someone learn how to get the family out of them? The family dysfunction out of them while also being a part of the family?

• 37:04Speaker 01

  I want to learn to remain connected, which is what we call kind of emotionally connected. And I am going to be myself.

• 37:17Lewis Howes?

  Yes, which I think a lot of people struggle with with their parents or family.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  And when somebody says, so I'm going to tell you something. I want you to go home and tell your family or your parents this holiday, or whenever you're going to see them. How would you feel about doing that? Like you want to change the date of when you get together for Christmas? Or when you, how comfortable do we feel going and telling them that? And this is your preference? Oh, my gosh, that's going to be a mess. And this can be a president of a company who runs people all the time. But he's going to go home and tell mom and dad, I don't want to do, you know, Christmas at the same time we've always done it? Oh, my, you're gonna, that's why, that's why we so become children when we go home.

• 38:02Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  We just, and many people will say that when I go home, I just feel like I'm back, back in junior high or I'm back in, my parents treat me this way and, you know, here I am, the president of GM or whatever.

• 38:15Lewis Howes?

  They're still babying you.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  They're still babying me and think I'm an idiot. And it bothers them. And I would help them learn for it not to bother them. That's them, they're not you.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Enmeshment is I am you and you are me. Non-enmeshment is you are you and I am me. I am not you and you are not me. And we can have a relationship and that's a healthy relationship. Because this is not a healthy relationship.

• 38:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  This is not a healthy relationship. This is a healthy relationship.

• 38:54Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  And you need space. You need distance and space to have closeness.

• 39:04Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  This, you can't have closeness. You're over close. This is over distant, probably because you're over close.

• 39:15Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  And you can't have closeness.

• 39:18Lewis Howes?

  That's so interesting you say this, Jerry, because for those that are listening and not watching and not able to see the hand gestures. You're talking, you had your hands together enmeshed versus far apart and then closer together, but not touching. It's interesting because I left, I left home at 13. And I

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 39:36Lewis Howes?

  And I begged my parents to send me away to a private boarding school that was about seven hours away. Begged them for a summer and they did not want me to leave. But they were, I knew my parents loved me, but I didn't feel emotionally safe in the house because of their relationship.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:54Lewis Howes?

  My father was there for me, my mother was there for me at different times, but they weren't there for each other. My, you know, again, I was sexually abused by a man that I didn't know when I was five. It wasn't anyone in the family, thankfully. And then my brother went to prison when I was eight for four and a half years. My older brother, 11 years older. So that was just a challenging season of life that the family dynamic faced. And my parents just weren't, they shouldn't have been married essentially. They were just not happy in their marriage. They did their best, they tried, but they weren't, they eventually got divorced when I was a teenager.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  And I do say, parents are doing the best they can.

• 40:31Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  With the paradigm they have been given.

• 40:35Lewis Howes?

  From their origin and everything.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Their origin and everything else, but I'm not excusing them.

• 40:40Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. But as a 12 and a half year old, I wanted out and get me out of here. I want to be around better environment, better friends, better everything. And I went from enmeshed to, you know, as far away as I could be.

• 40:59Lewis Howes?

  And over the years, I've had to relearn how to get closer, but not, you know, not too far, but not enmeshed, but closer. Because I would go months without talking and I felt safe being alone. Because I felt unsafe being enmeshed. And again, I knew my parents loved me and they showed up for me and they went to my games and they did the best they could.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Right, they did, right.

• 41:24Lewis Howes?

  But it was just like with the, the, the, the life experience I had, I didn't know how to navigate the emotional unsafety that I felt from their lack of love with each other. And the chaos it felt like it was having. And so it was, it was years of unlearning, of healing, of all these different things to self differentiate from my childhood and from certain people in my family so that I could love myself and love them for who they are.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  We have to accept them for who they are. And, and also, the other thing is, this is what I will also tell people. If you accepted your parents just the way they are, what relationship would you like to have with them? But you have to accept, well, I'd get along better if they would do.

• 42:13Lewis Howes?

  They changed, yeah, yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  They are exactly who they are and they're not going to change. What relationship do you want to have? Do you know you can do that marital work too?

• 42:24Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, really?

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Your wife or husband's not going to change.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  What relationship do you want to have with him? Well, we're here so that that changes. You know, oh, so you came here to work with me to change him? Oh, well, that's, at least I know now what our goal is and what you were planning on.

• 42:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, the impossible goal.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  The impossible goal and you're going to find me to be a very inadequate coach. And, and you're, and he's going to fail and it's going to be a mess.

• 42:57Lewis Howes?

  So instead of trying to change our parent or change our spouse for what we don't like about them, what should we be trying to do instead to create a healthier relationship with them?

• 43:09Speaker 01

  What if you were to, uh, mom sits down or dad sits down or whatever and they're at the table and you have coffee and go, you know, what, what was it like when you grew up?

• 43:25Speaker 01

  What was it like in your family?

• 43:28Speaker 01

  What did you like about it and what did you not like about it?

• 43:32Speaker 01

  I'm being a researcher. Now I've just changed emotional location with them. I'm no longer the little child who they're gonna... Now, they may say, "Oh, wow, we don't want to talk about any of that." Okay, well, I just wanted to, I just wanted to ask.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna make them do it. But I'm now an adult and treating them as an adult. Hey, what was it like during the war? What was, you know, my, my parents would be older and they, and, you know, and what was it like going through the depression and, and those kind of things? Because I've changed my emotional location, I'm no longer this little boy and they're this, these parents that are, now they have to talk to me like an adult. Because I'm asking an adult thing and I'm asking something about them. And that I've changed something that has changed, that will change the dynamic.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  And there are many other ways to change the dynamic too. To learn how to, you know, even if it's a, well, I remember my own example of, I was a pastor for many years and I'd, my father died. It fell on me to give the, now who's gonna give the family prayer at the meal?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Well, it's gonna be, I'm the youngest. But I was the only one who was in religious circles in that way. So it has to be me and mom assumed it would be me. I didn't want to do it.

• 45:11Lewis Howes?

  Really? Even though you were in the practice?

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Even though that was, I'm, I'm not the family's pastor.

• 45:16Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  I'm Jerry. I'm not your, I'm not your...

• 45:18Lewis Howes?

  You're the youngest.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  I'm the youngest. I, what, why am I, you know? Because everyone just wanted it taken away from them. So I told mom several times before the meal, I'm, I don't wish to do this. That's not my preference.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  And she just ignore it and oh, and no.

• 45:40Lewis Howes?

  Just do it anyways.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Just do it anyway and blah, blah, blah, blah. Mom and several times to prepare because I know it's changed. So when we got to the time, we're all standing there all around the table. She looks at me and goes,

• 45:57Lewis Howes?

  What'd you do?

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Jerry, would you like to?

• 45:58Lewis Howes?

  Did you give in?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  And what I, this is one of my major steps of self differentiation.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Mom, we had discussed this several times. And one of my preferences is this is not what I wanted to do.

• 46:13Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, rough on the feathers over here.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  So I just wanted to, to share that and then shut up.

• 46:20Lewis Howes?

  And then everyone's waiting to eat, the food is out.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Everybody's going, we don't do that in our family.

• 46:27Lewis Howes?

  So you started to break the cycle a little bit and create a shift.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Our family was never the same.

• 46:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Never the same.

• 46:34Lewis Howes?

  Well, you lose a parent, you're gonna, I mean, it's never the same.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:36Lewis Howes?

  But.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  But that someone would say no.

• 46:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  And, and so mom went ahead and gave, and then it was shared around and nobody asked me. But then I could say, hey, I'd be happy to do that today if you'd like me to do it. Cause now I'm doing it because I'm choosing it or want to. But it's not, here's your role, you do this role, Jerry, and be happy.

• 47:03Lewis Howes?

  So your mom, did she get upset with you when you didn't do this? Did she would give you a stare? Did she?

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Yes, she gave me a look like you don't, we don't do that.

• 47:15Lewis Howes?

  But then you said, I'm not, I'm not, I'm gonna, I'm gonna clear my boundary.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  It was just to, to state my position. And then the hardest thing to do was to stay quiet.

• 47:27Lewis Howes?

  And not apologize.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  And not save anybody from this moment.

• 47:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow, interesting.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  That's self differentiation in the family.

• 47:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Cause I'm changing my dynamic in the family. I would have said, oh no, it's gonna be okay or okay, I'll do it today. But you know, I don't want anybody to feel bad and I don't.

• 47:45Lewis Howes?

  Wow. How old were you at this time? Do you remember roughly?

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Probably in my twenties.

• 47:51Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow. Okay. And you were the youngest of?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  And I was the youngest of three.

• 47:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  Well, and then I thought, my brother's not gonna like this. My, nobody's gonna like this. Cause and look, she's just lost her husband.

• 48:03Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  We lost her dad and now I'm-

• 48:05Lewis Howes?

  Look at you being a little brat, you know?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  You're being a little brat. All the role thing that's gonna come out and I'm going, but I can't care about that.

• 48:15Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  That I'm not their little brat. They can think of me as a little brat.

• 48:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  They are not me. I am not them.

• 48:25Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  I'm not a little brat. I have a purpose to, cause mom always used to guilt me into shame, uh, guilt me into singing.

• 48:35Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Cause I did professional music and I sang and I did things like that and went to music school and lord knows what. And, and so she, oh, Jerry, you, you have to sing for everybody. I don't want-

• 48:47Lewis Howes?

  Sometimes maybe you do, sometimes you don't, right?

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Sometimes I don't. And I'm, I'm not here to be the, the, the-

• 48:54Lewis Howes?

  Puppet?

• 48:54Speaker 01

  The monkey on a, you know, you know, okay, Jerry, now perform, you know?

• 48:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  And, and I never could say no. It was so hard. Oh, it's just-

• 49:04Lewis Howes?

  When did you, did you finally say no or no?

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Well, to the family prayer was the beginning of-

• 49:08Lewis Howes?

  And then you started to stand for yourself?

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Then I'm going, this is the new Jerry.

• 49:13Lewis Howes?

  Boundaries.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  And I'm not gonna get reactive. I'm not gonna be mad that mom didn't listen to me before we got there and that she would rescue me from this moment by not asking me. Cause I knew she wasn't gonna rescue me from this moment. But I don't need to be mad at her. She just had her plan. I have mine.

• 49:32Lewis Howes?

  Wow. So it sounds like what I'm hearing you say is you can't expect to change your parents. You can't expect to change your spouse or your partner, but you can change the dynamic you have with your parents or your spouse.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 49:46Lewis Howes?

  And when you start to do that, you're self-differentiating from a dynamic that once was into a new dynamic.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  And they can't stop that dynamic change.

• 49:59Lewis Howes?

  They might throw a fuss.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  They could throw a fuss.

• 50:01Lewis Howes?

  They might scream.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  They might scream.

• 50:03Lewis Howes?

  Silent treatment, all the-

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Well, we also have three levels of resistance.

• 50:07Lewis Howes?

  What are those?

• 50:08Speaker 01

  That if you go through those three level of resistance, you'll come out at a higher level. First level is Jerry, why are you saying no, he won't do this? Second stage of resistance is Jerry, no, you need to be doing this. And I'll be upset if you don't. Third, do this or else.

• 50:36Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  And if you can stay self differentiated through all three levels, you'll start here, go up the levels and end up here in the family. Not here, but here. Because they can't.

• 50:52Lewis Howes?

  They can't control you.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  They can't control my dynamic of the family. They, they can control, they can yell and scream and do all that. But this family is now different because I'm different.

• 51:05Lewis Howes?

  Let's go.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  And I'm still connected.

• 51:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  If I'm not connected, then you don't have the power. There's, the emphasis is not there. But if I'm still connected, they, they. And you could become a scapegoat. You could become, I mean, that's, that's one of the, then we'll make you the scapegoat. And you can go, that's fine. If you need to do that, and I'm going to continue to be me. And I can love you. And you know, if that's what you need to do, then, and then we have to be patient and let time. And now they have to decide, do we want to lose him or do we not?

• 51:44Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  The, the burden's on them now, not on me.

• 51:50Lewis Howes?

  Can we change to accept him?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  We change to accept him. And that's their choice, that, that they get to decide that.

• 51:58Lewis Howes?

  Here's a, here's an interesting question for you. As someone who has worked with individuals and family dysfunctional families for 45 plus years, coaching, therapy, all these different things, helping them heal and self differentiate.

• 52:15Lewis Howes?

  I hope to be a parent one day. And for those watching or listening who are parents, what's the best way they can set up their family to be as healthy as possible for their children to thrive? And also love and accept each other? And have a healthy family dynamic? Or if someone's got some older kids and they realize, oh, maybe I've done some stuff.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  And many have, I have too.

• 52:39Lewis Howes?

  And they're in their teens now. How can I start to change the family dynamic? So that my kids feel empowered to be themselves within the family as well?

• 52:49Speaker 01

  And what I tell everybody? I understand that. And that's an excellent goal. And in fact, it's never too late. People will say, well, I'm 70 now. How can I? So, aren't you still a biological human being? I mean, you, you still are a cell in this whole world of the universe we have. So you're still functioning in that. So you can change. Now, some people can't change because of very real limitations. And I understand, even some narcissists, they're so broken because of that. But you can change. And that, uh, what we want to do is focus on,

• 53:34Speaker 01

  whatever you want for your kids, you must obtain for yourself. So it's not, it's not what you teach them. It's what you be to them. That's much more powerful than anything you say.

• 53:53Lewis Howes?

  Can you give us some examples?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Well, people will say, now, you need to, duh, duh, you ought not do that. You ought not do that. And, but, but the thing is, if I am mature, if I am less reactive, if I am more calm, if I am more thoughtful, if I am able to see a more clear view of how all the system works in my relationships.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  That comes through because of the connectedness. And that's the more powerful dynamic than all the book reading you do about what, how you tell people, how you, as a marriage and family therapist, and people were always asking me about parental advice, you know, and there's good advice out there. You can read tons of books on parental advice. But my, but the thing is, if the envelope is bad, then the message in it is gonna have a good message in a bad envelope. I'm talking about changing the envelope. Then you put the good message in, it's, it's all different. Cause, and so

• 55:06Speaker 01

  many just go, well, I'm gonna give them this envelope. But you're living like crap. You hate yourself and you're telling them, you need to love yourself. You need to, da, da, bad envelope, right message. Let's get good envelope. I'm not gonna tell you to love yourself. I'm gonna love myself.

• 55:27Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, it's, you need the messenger to be in alignment with the message.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 55:33Lewis Howes?

  Now, so it sounds like step one, if you want to be a great parent, start reparenting yourself and healing the inner child. Step two, learn self differentiation from your own family as well.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 55:47Lewis Howes?

  But self differentiation, it starts with like these small courageous steps, it sounds like. It doesn't have to be, I'm gonna explode the family dynamic overnight, but it's like, mom wants me to do this, and she's been wanting me to do it my whole life, and I've always done it, and I'm not gonna do it anymore. Dad wants me to do this, and I'm gonna say, hey, that doesn't work for me anymore. Whatever it is, it's the small resistances.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  And then, what I've found, is as you are self-aware, becoming self-regulated, and becoming self-differentiated, those are kind of the three, aware, regulated, differentiated. As you're doing those three, and we can learn how to do those three, those three.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  That it is better for it to take longer and be right and actually effective than than go quick fix or shorter and you go over and come back to the same spot. The other weird thing about change, and again, I've, that's kind of been my whole thing all my life is, how do I change? And then as a professional, how do I change other people? Or help them change, or whether I'm changing them or whatever, how, how does change work? Change also, many people go, well, that can take a while. It also can take two seconds.

• 57:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  And you're never the same. Now, why is that? That's a, that's a change. People will tell me that all the time, that I, I've never been the same since that, well, that's a pretty quick change.

• 57:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I decided.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  That's a pretty quick awareness that you, you had. So there's the long work, and then along the work, along the way, you'll have these moments of just, I'm just so different. You know, and, and I think that's really a cool part of the work that I help people with and.

• 57:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, because one of the, one of the challenges I felt like I lived with, and I think a lot of people probably lived with, and they had dysfunctional families, is trying to keep the peace. It's trying to not, it's trying to not upset mom, or upset dad, or upset your siblings. It's like, do what you need to in your role to keep the peace.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  That's why we have roles. Roles is to make the family continue to operate in its dysfunctional way.

• 58:19Lewis Howes?

  But don't we need roles too?

• 58:22Lewis Howes?

  In like relationships, aren't there supposed to be roles on like, how to support one another? Or agreements?

• 58:28Speaker 01

  But that's not a role. That's a self.

• 58:32Lewis Howes?

  Ah.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  My self and my values and my belief, I'm gonna support you.

• 58:37Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 58:38Speaker 01

  And that's not a role I'm playing. That's my genuine beliefs.

• 58:43Lewis Howes?

  So when we're playing a role, what are we doing?

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Being a pseudo self.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  A role is a pseudo self. Golden child is a pseudo self.

• 58:53Lewis Howes?

  Problem child.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Problem child is a pseudo self. I'm not saying they really didn't come out of a family where that was emphasized. I'm not saying it didn't really happen. But I think once you realize, you know, that's not you. You know, that's not you. It really, I know that's the way you've lived and that's what everybody's always said. But it's really not who you are. And so with roles, I think of roles as being a pseudo self. What we want to do is to be authentic selves.

• 59:29Lewis Howes?

  Not a pseudo self.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Not a pseudo self. Oh, I know you were saying you're to please. We're gonna please. That's a pseudo self. And why am I Mr. Pleaser? Which I was, absolutely was codependent Mr. Pleaser. Oh, my gosh, it was just.

• 59:46Lewis Howes?

  Why is that? To seek approval? Is it to survival?

• 59:51Speaker 01

  And I think

• 59:54Speaker 01

  when you say seek approval, I know I used to teach codependency, have codependency groups. And so I know all the symptoms of codependency and all of that. However, at the bottom line of it is it's the family's chronic anxiety, which you're not aware of, that pushes you to then go, oh, I need to get approval or I need to be pleasing. So we need to reduce the chronic anxiety so you're not.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Doing the pleasing part.

• 1:00:29Lewis Howes?

  How do you reduce the chronic anxiety of a family dynamic?

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  First of all, you want, you have to recognize it. You have to recognize what's underneath your pleasing, your withdrawing, your overcompensating, your, your hyper-functioning, your under-functioning. Under-functioning is a, it comes because of anxiety. All of these come because of chronic anxiety. Anxiety is a bedrock of life. That's how life got started. That's, that's, but, and we have a brain that functions that way too. But we don't want to function out of our old brain. We want to function out of our new brain. All of this stuff has to do with our old brain.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  It's the old brain. And, and so you feel like you're in a room with a tiger? Well, why do you feel like you're in a room with a tiger when there's no tiger there? Because a million years ago, you needed that. You needed that anxiety to save yourself. Now we have the experience of it, but it's not there. And so we have to learn to operate with our brain better.

• 1:01:43Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  And, and so I think whatever I, and I didn't realize this, oh, being like a mascot. I was also a mascot. And so I would get nervous.

• 1:01:54Lewis Howes?

  You've had many lives, Jerry.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  I would get nervous. And in a group or in a therapy group or a supervision group, whatever we do. And if, and if there was tension, what would I break it with? A joke or making fun.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  And I was serving a function with that.

• 1:02:12Lewis Howes?

  Playing a role.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  I'm playing a role. But it was my anxiety I wasn't managing. I can't deal with your tension. So I'm going to be funny. If I begin to learn, well, I need to let them have their tension. Why do I need to rescue them from this tension with my humor? And also it doesn't get us anywhere. I mean, I can, and there's a time to reduce tension. There's, and I've done that certainly legitimately. But whatever we do, over-function or under-function comes out of the anxiety that we're, that we're not, most of what's happening with you.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  You haven't learned to, to understand why it happens. You, you, you're just living your life as, as you should. But if I started helping you understand the underlying anxiety, you go, "Oh, I think you're right. That is, that was my anxiety. Oh, that was my anxiety." That, and it's the chronic anxiety from over here at the family that we, we inherit that anxiety. And we inherit that level of self-differentiation. So if they're twos on a 10 scale, what do you think we're gonna be?

• 1:03:32Lewis Howes?

  Two?

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:33Lewis Howes?

  In self-differentiation.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  In self-differentiation, not as, I'm not talking morally, spiritually. And so we want to work on raising that number while staying connected. And then my four-ness helps them become two and a quarter.

• 1:03:51Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Barely. You're not even, you're barely changing. Maybe they shift the role a little bit.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  And I'm not even trying to change them. That's not my, that's not even my, but because we are connected, it's going to have an impact.

• 1:04:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's interesting. You just talked about inheriting the family enmeshment. Until we are self-aware, learn to self-regulate and self-differentiate, we're gonna inherit this family dynamic, this dysfunction, it sounds like. Here's a scary question. Can you inherit narcissism from a parent if you have a narcissistic parent?

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Well, that's a science question. And, and we don't know the cause of narcissism. Certainly, we can say a narcissistic parent who is abusive and can create a narcissist. But there are so many layers of things going on from genetics to how the body affects with environment, affects in their environment, to parenting, to family dynamics, to trans or intergenerational stuff that comes, to biochemistry, to, and, and we don't have one good thing go, this causes narcissism. And there are so many people that just say narcissism is caused by a narcissist.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  That has not been my experience. Now, are narcissists, can narcissists have narcissists? Yes, of course they can have narcissists. But you're just painting a simplified view of it, and I don't think that's accurate. Because there's so many dynamics that can affect someone being a narcissist. Why is someone BPD or bipolar? Or why is someone, you know, there's just, we're a complicated organism. And so I think, and I don't think there's any one study that says this is what, that would be probably irresponsible, because that's not what the science.

• 1:05:49Lewis Howes?

  With all of your work as a therapist, a family therapist, and a family dysfunctional dynamics that you've experienced and studied and supported for the last 45 years. If you were to design a narcissistic kid to grow up and be narcissistic, what would be the elements? Not that you would do this, but if you're like, hey, if you do these things, and this, and this, and this, you might create a narcissist.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Well, there's some classic thing we think about. No boundaries, overindulging.

• 1:06:24Lewis Howes?

  Get whatever you want.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Spoiling, whatever you want. Maybe throw in some abuse. I think those would be some good kind of, kind of things.

• 1:06:36Lewis Howes?

  No consequences.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  No consequences. Also, many times shaming does, is a part of that soup that goes in there. But again, it's, it's already baked into the cake in the families.

• 1:06:54Lewis Howes?

  Because it was passed down already.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  It was passed down already. It's already passed down. And so those would be some things I'd be less, I would not want to do.

• 1:07:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  With my child.

• 1:07:06Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  That they do need a sense of self, but not a sense of self-absorption.

• 1:07:14Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. I think, I think one that I want to ask you is, how can someone with... Narcissistic parents set healthy boundaries as an adult, where they stay connected to their parent, but they're not enmeshed with that parent anymore. And they don't play the role that they've been playing for a long time.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  The way we do that is by inner boundaries.

• 1:07:41Lewis Howes?

  Inner boundaries first?

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Inner boundaries first versus external boundaries. Because if you build your inner boundaries first, you'll be able to hold to your outer boundaries. If you don't, those are just, they're not gonna work. You're not gonna hold them. So, inner boundaries, when I think of inner boundaries, I think of learning to detach, learning to de-enmesh, learning to, I am not you, you are not me. And so, if I want to maintain those boundaries, you have to learn to not care.

• 1:08:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's tough.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  And the caring part is the dysfunctional part. And it doesn't sound weird, me saying caring part's the dysfunctional part. But it is. It absolutely is the dysfunctional part.

• 1:08:32Lewis Howes?

  But these are your parents. They've given you so much. They've supported you your whole life.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Tell them thank you for that.

• 1:08:39Lewis Howes?

  Right, then you don't owe them anything else.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  When do we stop owing our parents? When do we?

• 1:08:47Lewis Howes?

  I guess, I guess 18? I don't know, is that what you're saying? Is that the age? I don't know.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think.

• 1:08:53Lewis Howes?

  Do we ever owe them anything?

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:08:55Lewis Howes?

  That's the thing that you're saying.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:08:57Lewis Howes?

  We never owe them anything.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  I didn't choose to get born. They had a child and they chose.

• 1:09:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  That was their choice. And the law says they have to take care of me and raise me. And I didn't.

• 1:09:08Lewis Howes?

  But it seems like there's this unspoken agreement or expectation that the child is supposed to take care of the, look at all I've done for you.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  All I've done for you. And I would say, I can't tell you how much I have appreciated that. And they would say.

• 1:09:26Lewis Howes?

  But you owe me your life for out of no.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Or you owe me to do this for me.

• 1:09:31Lewis Howes?

  Do more for me, yeah. Now you need to take care of me because I took care of you.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  Right, and, and, and the thing is, me taking care of you has to do with my values, my morals, and my choices.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  And that, I, I have no trouble doing that, however.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  It depends on what kind of relationship we're gonna have. And if our relationship is only an evil one, then probably other means need to be worked out for your taking, being taken care of.

• 1:10:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  Because I'm not going to, I'm not going to completely blow up my life and my emotional inner peace.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  I can live without family. I can't live without inner peace.

• 1:10:25Lewis Howes?

  Otherwise, you're just continuing the cycle of enmeshment, generational trauma, and you're, you're showing the next generation how to treat each other.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  And on a billboard, yes.

• 1:10:36Lewis Howes?

  Gosh, but it just seems so hard for people because they're like, well, this is how it's always been.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  And I, and I would never say it's not hard. And I never look at people and go, oh, well, that should just be easy. And many times people say, oh, well, you just make it sound so easy. This was hard thought, easy. This wasn't easy for me. This, there wasn't, I, no, no. And I'm not suggesting you should just be there without any struggle. However, I'm trying to give you a framework with which to work with. If you didn't have to take care of your parents, would you?

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Or if they are narcissistic parents, which, and I'm for kids taking care of their parents. I'm, I'm not anti-family or anti, I want families to be together. I want them to love each other. But if you have two malignant narcissists,

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  now, what kind of caregiving relationship do you want to have with them?

• 1:11:38Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  You have to decide because you're your own agent. I mean, you're, it can't be based on whatever they say do or then you're back to being a pseudo-self.

• 1:11:49Lewis Howes?

  And you're acting like a child.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  And you're acting like a child and they're the parent.

• 1:11:53Lewis Howes?

  And they're in control or they're pressuring you or judging you.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Well, and they'll be leading you around by the nose if that, if they're bad narcissistic parents.

• 1:12:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  It's gonna be so, so it's that because you're gonna have to live with your choices. They have to live with theirs. And in fact, they've made maybe bad choices for the last many decades. Is it your time now to make up for that? How, how do you make up for their bad choices over to?

• 1:12:23Lewis Howes?

  You can't.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Decades and decades. I, I don't know how to do that.

• 1:12:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Does that mean, and I took care of my mother. I, I, everybody's got to decide for themselves. And also I knew if I was gonna do that, I needed inner boundaries.

• 1:12:38Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, for yourself, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  I had to have inner boundaries if I was gonna do that. That it just wasn't gonna matter and, you know, well, why don't you come visit me more at the nursing home? She was, she mentally was there, all that, just physically couldn't do it. And I would visit her on a regular basis, but it was never enough.

• 1:12:57Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Never enough.

• 1:12:58Lewis Howes?

  Even if it went every day for months?

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  It wouldn't never be enough.

• 1:13:03Lewis Howes?

  But you have to create inner boundaries first.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  And I have to decide, how much do I wanna?

• 1:13:07Lewis Howes?

  Right. Not because she's guilting me.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Not because of guilting and shaming. And so I'm going, so if I don't, what does she think about me? I'm being a bad son.

• 1:13:17Lewis Howes?

  And you have to stop caring about that.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  And, well, I could even not care about it by totally accepting it.

• 1:13:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Hey, Mom, I know this is not what you would like. And I know you think I'm being a bad son because I'm not doing what Stan and Jan are doing with their mother down the hallway, who is in my class, you know, whatever. And they, they could visit every day and, but they had a different relationship with their mom than I had with my mom. So it's a different family, you know, if they want to visit every day, that's wonderful. And so I'm okay with being the bad son.

• 1:13:57Lewis Howes?

  And you're just, you've accepted that your mother's perception of you was you were not good enough or not being the good son. And you learned to accept her perspective or perception of you. You didn't have to agree with it.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  I don't have to agree, I didn't agree with it at all.

• 1:14:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  But, and the same is true with tug of war. When you have a tug of war, if I accept it, I can drop the rope. And I just dropped the rope with mom. I'm the bad son. It's such a shame that God gave you a bad son like me. Who shows up every week for you. Shows up every week to visit you and he won't do it any more often than that.

• 1:14:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  And it, I just can't imagine how awful that is.

• 1:14:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, such a tough life, yeah.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:14:44Lewis Howes?

  But what if she keeps shaming you and making you wrong constantly? How do you know?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  So you would like me to visit you less?

• 1:14:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Is that what you're asking?

• 1:14:53Lewis Howes?

  Isn't it interesting? The more you appreciate anyone, whether it's a parent, child, you know, sibling, relationship, whatever, the more you appreciate someone, typically that relationship appreciates in value. It grows in value because it feels appreciated. When you shame, belittle, make wrong, it diminishes in value, right? It's like, you don't want to be around that anymore.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:15:17Lewis Howes?

  Or you don't feel good when you are around it. You're, you're regretting having to show up. You're like resistant to it.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  Well, and actually, if you use a cancer model, all of this narcissism, criticism, negative and dysfunctional stuff that's coming is a metastasis of the emotional cancer.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  And it metastasizes and you're supposed to come join this. Well, I don't want to join this. I don't want to be a part of this and I'm not going to be. And that I'm not gonna call you cancer. I mean, I don't need, I don't need, I don't have to disrespect or be mean to people, but I need to recognize what's going on. And that, because all of this is all pseudo-self. That's cancerous, that's can just gobble me right up. And no, we're, we're going to keep this at, uh, at bay.

• 1:16:21Lewis Howes?

  That's powerful.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  And, and you can hold on to your pseudo-self of being a narcissist or a mean person or an un-loving parent, or you can, that's, you're free to do that. And I've just put a block there when I've said, you're free to do that. And I'm over here.

• 1:16:40Lewis Howes?

  Uh, self-differentiation. That's powerful. Jerry, this has been powerful and I want people to follow you over on YouTube slash Jerry Wise and everywhere else, Jerry Wise Relationship Systems dot com. You've got a free training on your site as well, where people can go through more of your systems and your processes for understanding how to navigate dysfunctional family relationships, how to start healing, how to start becoming more self-aware, self-regulated, differentiated, all these different things. I want people to go to your website and check this out. You're all over social media as well, again, Jerry Wise. Uh, and you've got just a wealth of information on how to navigate

• 1:17:22Lewis Howes?

  probably one of the most challenging things, which is family dynamics and the dynamic you have with your inner child and self. And so I, I want to acknowledge you for the decades of service you've had towards understanding, researching and helping human beings find more peace and harmony in their relationships. Because like you said, I think the most important thing in the world is the family units. And having families be healthy and happy and individualistic as well within a family. So they can be authentic and not a pseudo-self. So I want to acknowledge you for the, the work, the journey and the commitment you have to helping families heal.

• 1:18:06Lewis Howes?

  In a world where it seems like there's a lot of stress and chaos in families. And there's two final questions I have for you. This one is a hypothetical question I ask everyone at the end of our conversations. It's called the three truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want, Jerry, but it's the last day in the future for you. And you get to accomplish everything you want and see the people in your life flourish and everything else all comes true. But on the last day for you, you have to take all of your work with you. So this conversation is gone, all the content you've ever put out there, no one has access to your content anymore.

• 1:18:48Lewis Howes?

  But on the last day, you get to leave behind three final lessons and we would have access to this information. What would be those three lessons to the world or three truths?

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Remember that you can't solve the problem using the thinking and emotional dynamics that have caused it. So you cannot break out of the box by using everything you know in the box. Two, family is everything, whether you believe it or not. That truth is not going to change. You can resist it, you can, you can do whatever you want with it, but because of who you are and as a human being and growing up in that social unit that has

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  mental and emotional dynamics that go on

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  the rest of your life. So family is everything.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Thirdly, calmness is everything.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  If you want to be less enmeshed, stay more calm because reactivity will only make you enmesh more. So if you're being reactive, you're probably enmeshing more. You're not deenmeshing. I didn't say be a doormat. I didn't say be, but calmness is everything. And if you are calm, you can think, you can regulate your emotions better. You can regulate your thoughts better and you can see things more clearly.

• 1:20:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  So I have, and I have a video on calmness is everything, but it, it's just so critical.

• 1:20:36Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  For a family systems perspective.

• 1:20:39Lewis Howes?

  Beautiful. And final question, Jerry, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I think greatness would be finding the true and authentic you.

• 1:20:51Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  I mean, that's, that, I don't care how much money you make. I don't care how many, you know, companies you own. I don't, you know, I've got wealthy clients. I've got poor clients. What are you giving to yourself? Because that will make the world greater.

• 1:21:10Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  If you do that.

• 1:21:12Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  And that's what I always felt is that the more I can be more self differentiated, caring myself, aware of myself, I would be able to love differently, give differently, express myself differently in a way that is world enriching rather than world detracting.

• 1:21:35Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. Jerry Wise, thanks so much for being here. I appreciate it.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  Thank you, Lewis. I've really enjoyed it very much.

• 1:21:41Lewis Howes?

  Powerful. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneeeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment, moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to the next episode on the School of Greatness.

• 1:22:24Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:23:08Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.