#564: Performance Psychologist Michael Gervais — Fear{less} with Tim Ferriss

Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers to tease out the routines, habits, et cetera that you can apply to your own life. You’ll get plenty of that in this special episode, which features my interview with Michael Gervais from my 2017 TV Show Fear{less} https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjnN3O-xVuQ. The “less” is in parentheses because the objective is to teach you to fear less, not to be fearless. Fear{less} features in-depth, long-form conversations with top performers, focusing on how they’ve overcome fears and made hard decisions, embracing discomfort and thinking big. It was produced by Wild West Productions, and I worked with them to make both the video and audio available to you for free, my dear listeners. You can find the video of this episode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjnN3O-xVuQ on YouTube.com/TimFerriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss, and eventually you’ll be able to see all episodes for free at YouTube.com/TimFerriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss. Spearheaded by actor/producer and past podcast guest Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Wild West Productions https://twitter.com/wildwest has produced a string of hit movies including The Internship https://www.amazon.com/Internship-Vince-Vaughn/dp/B00F55HNBY/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Couples Retreat https://www.amazon.com/Couples-Retreat-Vince-Vaughn/dp/B009CFYVJK/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, Four Christmases https://www.amazon.com/Four-Christmases-Vince-Vaughn/dp/B0091X5IWM/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, and The Break-Up https://www.amazon.com/Break-Up-Vince-Vaughn/dp/B009CFY4NS/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20. In 2020, Wild West produced the comedy The Opening Act https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Act-Jimmy-Yang/dp/B08K39LBD2/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, starring Jimmy O. Yang and Cedric The Entertainer. In addition to Fear{less}, their television credits include Undeniable with Joe Buck https://audiencenetwork.att.com/audience/undeniable/season-5, ESPN’s 30 for 30 episode https://plus.espn.com/30-for-30 about the ’85 Bears, and the Netflix animated show F is for Family https://www.netflix.com/title/80028732. Please enjoy! * This episode is brought to you by “5-Bullet Friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/?utm_source=timblog&utm_medium=timblog&utm_campaign=podcast-sponsorship,” my very own email newsletter that every Friday features five bullet points highlighting cool things I’ve found that week, including apps, books, documentaries, gadgets, albums, articles, TV shows, new hacks or tricks, and—of course—all sorts of weird stuff I’ve dug up from around the world. It’s free, it’s always going to be free, and you can subscribe now at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/?utm_source=timblog&utm_medium=timblog&utm_campaign=podcast-sponsorship. * How Michael helped daredevil Felix Baumgartner mentally prepare for his 24-mile fall to earth from the edge of space. [05:06] What does extinguishing phobia look like? [08:07] What was Michael’s childhood like? After moving away from their farm, how did his family help him adjust to life in the big city? [10:48] How Fight Club SoCal led to Surfin’ USA, and what kept Michael’s ambitions in check during this time. [13:48] How Michael began to rein in this anxiety, and who was there to help him. [17:24] Michael describes the week he spent at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, and how it changed his life. [18:37] How Michael became involved in the world of performance psychology, the mentor who guided him, and what his first lessons as a teacher looked like. [21:24] Michael and I share our basic life philosophies. [23:27] What was Michael’s first paid gig with an athlete, and why is the word “potential” often such a powerful performance killer? [26:25] Effective pre-performance routines Michael has seen, and why he discourages the popular deference to superstition so popular among athletes. [27:31] Is the effectiveness of a team dictated simply by a formula of individual multiplied by X number of team members? What ingredients best facilitate a team’s culture toward success? [29:34] Three rules (and one bonus, unwritten rule) that govern the Seattle Seahawks. [30:55] What was it like to lose a Super Bowl? [33:08] What role does mindfulness play in Michael’s world? [36:47] Michael’s advice for someone new to — but curious to explore — mindfulness, and what they can do if it’s just not clicking for them from the get-go. [38:47] To avoid encouraging false confidence leading to overly risky or reckless behavior, how does Michael know when to draw the line? What specific incident really put this sense to the test, and how did he manage it? [43:01] Something Michael believes everyone should do on an everyday basis, and how he puts this into practice. [46:18] What is the first step back from massive failure? [47:29] Would the general advice Michael dispenses differ between high performers and everyday people? [48:57] How much of a role does Stoicism play in Michael’s life? [51:24] What would Michael’s billboard say? [52:28] Parting thoughts. [53:21] * For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Five Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. It's become one of the most popular email newsletters in the world with millions of subscribers, and it's super, super simple. It does not clog up your inbox. Every Friday, I send out five bullet points, super short, of the coolest things I've found that week, which sometimes includes apps, books, documentaries, supplements, gadgets, new self experiments, hacks, tricks, and all sorts of weird stuff that I dig up from around the world. You guys, podcast listeners and book readers, have asked me for something short and action-packed for a very long time, because after all, the podcasts, the books, they can be quite long. And that's why I created Five Bullet Friday. It's become one of my favorite things I do every week.

• 0:43Tim Ferriss?

  It's free, it's always gonna be free, and you can learn more at tim.blog/friday. That's tim.blog/friday. I get asked a lot how I meet guests for the podcast, some of the most amazing people I've ever interacted with, and little known fact, I've met probably 25% of them because they first subscribed to Five Bullet Friday. So you'll be in good company. It's a lot of fun. Five Bullet Friday is only available if you subscribe via email. I do not publish the content on the blog or anywhere else. Also, if I'm doing small in-person meetups, offering early access to startups, beta testing, special deals, or anything else that's very limited, I share it first with Five Bullet Friday subscribers. So, check it out, tim.blog/friday.

• 1:26Tim Ferriss?

  If you listen to this podcast, it's very likely that you'd dig it a lot, and you can, of course, easily subscribe anytime. So, easy peasy. Again, that's tim.blog/friday, and thanks for checking it out, if the spirit moves you.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Can I answer your personal question?

• 1:50Speaker 03

  Now would be an appropriate time.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 2:07Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers, to tease out the routines, habits, etc., that you can apply to your own life. You will get plenty of all of that in this special episode, which features an interview from my 2017 TV show, Fearless. The "less" is in parentheses because the objective is to teach you to fear less, not to be fearless. Fearless features in-depth, long-form conversations with top performers, focusing on how they've overcome fears and made hard decisions, embracing discomfort and thinking big along the way. It was produced by Wild West Productions, and I worked with them to make both the video and audio available to you for free, my dear listeners. So, thank

• 2:49Tim Ferriss?

  you, Wild West. You can find the video of this episode, which is gorgeous, I think they did an incredible job, on youtube.com/TimFerriss. Remember, two Rs, two S's, youtube.com/TimFerriss. And eventually, you'll be able to see all of the episodes for free at youtube.com/TimFerriss. So, you can swing over there and see what is currently up. Before we get started, just a little bit more on Wild West. Spearheaded by actor, producer, and past podcast guest Vince Vaughn, Wild West has produced a string of hit movies, including The Internship, Couples Retreat for Christmases, and The Breakup. In 2020, Wild West produced the comedy The Opening Act, starring Jimmy Oh Yang and Cedric the Entertainer. In addition to Fearless, their television credits include Undeniable with

• 3:33Tim Ferriss?

  Joe Buck, ESPN's 30 for 30 episode about the 85 Bears, and the Netflix animated show F is for Family. Wild West has also produced the documentaries Give Us This Day, Game Changers, subtitle Dreams of BlizzCon, and Wild West Comedy Show. And now, without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation from Fearless. I'm Tim Ferriss, author, entrepreneur, angel investor, and now, TV host. I've spent my entire adult life asking questions, then scouring the globe to find the answers. On this show, I'll share the secrets of pioneers who have faced their own fears. We'll dig into the hard times, big mistakes, tough decisions, and how they got through it all.

• 4:18Tim Ferriss?

  The goal isn't to be fearless. The goal is to learn to fear less.

• 4:26Tim Ferriss?

  Welcome to Fearless. I'm your host, Tim Ferriss. And on this very stage, we'll be deconstructing world-class performers of all different types to uncover the specific tactics they've used to overcome doubt, tackle their hardest decisions, and ultimately succeed on their own terms. So imagine yourself standing 127,000 feet above the earth, trying to set the free-fall world record. Or stepping onto the field for the Super Bowl, or perhaps attempting to take gold at the Olympics. If you were nervous or if you had to prepare for that, who would you turn to? Who would you ask for help? In less than a decade, my guest has built a very impressive client roster that includes Olympic gold medalists like Kerry Wallace Jennings, teams like the Seattle Seahawks, and the US Armed Forces. Please welcome to the stage, Dr. Michael Gervais.

• 5:24Tim Ferriss?

  The step has gotten me. You guys ready for your show? Yeah! All right. We are going to begin with a video, so let's roll that.

• 5:36Speaker 04

  128,000 feet above the ground, Felix Baumgartner stood at the edge of space, preparing to do what none had done before. And then, when the moment was right, he took a step, leaving the capsule behind and beginning his 24-mile fall to earth. Along the way, Baumgartner reached a speed of 833 miles per hour, becoming the first skydiver to break the sound barrier. After falling four and a half minutes, Baumgartner deployed his chute and floated to the earth in the desert of New Mexico.

• 6:21Speaker 05

  That was not me. That was not him. That was me. No, it wasn't me either. Yeah, that was Felix Baumgartner, who jumped out of space from 130,000 feet from the stratosphere on the Red Bull Stratus program. What was that like? Helping him through a fear that would allow him to go to a place that no other humans been. And when he jumped, to jump from 130,000, 127,000 feet, to jump and possibly go through a double sonic boom, where some of the brightest minds were not sure if his limbs would make it through that sonic boom. What was his primary fear? Wow, he could die. Well...

• 7:02Speaker 05

  Kind of... This guy calls himself a professional. What are we doing? But, okay. Good answer. What did the work look like? So he needed to be in a spacesuit for X number of hours, five to six hours. And he became claustrophobic. He could no longer be in the suit. For, I think at that time it was like 30 minutes. And so he had to rip off the helmet and get out of it. And so they scrubbed, they were scrubbing the project. It was done, because if the person can't be in there for 30 minutes, then it's not gonna work, period. And then so they asked me to come in and see if I could help him move through that experience. And it is possible to extinguish fear. It is dangerous.

• 7:47Speaker 05

  And many people don't make it through it. And he wanted it. And he wanted it with all of his faculty about himself. And he really was gonna do the work. Because it mattered more for him to go for it and die than to play it safe and never experience his potential. And what does extinguishing phobia look like? I knew you'd want to talk more about that. Yeah, oh yeah. So how do you extinguish phobia? There's good science, there's two main ways that as approaches. Systematic desensitization and flooding. And so it is possible to extinguish, you know, a fear response to something that you have. And so how do you do it?

• 8:30Speaker 05

  There's this, I don't know how much in the weeds you want to get with it. It's good in the weeds. Yeah, okay, so flooding as a concept is that if somebody has a fear response to whatever it is, that you and that person agree that you're gonna put them in that environment and not let them leave until they extinguish the fear. Until they have a new hard, a new wiring of the response to the stimulus. Once that flooding of emotion takes place and the circuitry is going haywire and they're not reinforcing the response by exiting, you force them to stay in that environment, hook or crook, that a new pattern emerges. And so that's the essence of it, that's pretty radical. Now-

• 9:13Speaker 05

  It's like the Indiana Jones into the pit of snakes approach. Yeah, that's exactly right. Now, now maybe he's cured. But so what happens for all of us in fear basers responses? So say it's a mouse or whatever it might be, or public speaking or whatever it is, is that mouse comes across the countertop and tension and then exit. So then thinking over time, and if that happens again, tension and then exit. And then over time, just thinking about a rat or a mouse on a countertop, and you would just want to get away. So there's that looping behavior of tension and exit. And so it's possible to recircuit it, but it takes time. And flooding, the counterpart to flooding is systematic desensitization. Just like building up a tan. Yeah, yeah, and you can do it two ways.

• 9:58Speaker 05

  You can do it in reality and you can do it in imagination. And so there's a set of protocols that you would walk somebody through, backfill them with some strategies on arousal control and thought management.

• 10:12Speaker 05

  So arousal control is breathing techniques or whatever. And then thought management is increasing awareness of one's thoughts. So you can guide and adjust and play with your thoughts maybe at one point. And so you backfill the mental skills. Those are mental skills for them. And then walk them through an experience where they'll list the triggers of the fear that they're walking into from zero to 100, or zero to 10. And then you systematically put them into those environments, either in imagination or in reality. I did both. But they can't leave stage three until they brought their heart rate down to rewire the fear response. So that's the long, the really long answer to it.

• 10:49Tim Ferriss?

  So you've worked with some of the highest profile, most successful athletes on the planet, but it didn't start there. Where did you grow up?

• 10:56Speaker 05

  My roots are in a small town called Warrenton, Virginia.

• 11:00Tim Ferriss?

  Were you a happy kid, would you say?

• 11:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, I didn't know any better. I was like, it felt like being out in the, in the abundance of nature that, and I didn't have worries or concerns and I was just a kid trying to sort out how to be a kid.

• 11:13Tim Ferriss?

  And then?

• 11:13Speaker 05

  Which is a great gift, like for parents. Like that's a really, I feel like that was an incredible gift that they gave me. So then dad started working into some corporate worlds and then punched over to California when I was young, it was fourth grade. So I had to figure out how to adjust from the farm to Northern California. And now I'm straight in the city. I was like, I was a hillbilly. I just was trying to figure out how to fit in, you know? And the fitting in is such a strong human need. And I do remember though, well enough that I couldn't come home to my parents and talk to them about being picked on. And then finally I came home and so I said, Dad, a kid after school said he's gonna chew me out. I said, what is that?

• 11:58Speaker 05

  And so chew you out is like, hey, we're gonna fight. Now, a hillbilly doesn't know what that is. So, so chew you out. So the next day, my dad, my dad, my mom and my grandmother were in our living room and they're showing me how to fight. So it was fantastic. And so my dad knew how to fight.

• 12:15Tim Ferriss?

  What was grandma's move?

• 12:16Speaker 05

  Okay, so grandma, I'm glad you picked up it. Grandma was on point. So grandma, she says, it was like the last finishing touches. She says, make sure and check if they have a ring. Okay, not a bad idea. And she says, cover yourself, cover yourself. And I looked at her, I go, what do you mean? She says, well, have one hand to hit him and one hand to protect yourself.

• 12:39Tim Ferriss?

  Good advice for a lot of things.

• 12:40Speaker 05

  Okay Grandma, yeah, so that was the family environment.

• 12:44Tim Ferriss?

  How'd the fight go? What happened?

• 12:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, so here I am, I'm getting ready to go and I'm thinking like, do I go this way? What do I do? And I remember like, okay, it's going. I looked for the ring, no ring, I'm okay. We're dancing like we're gonna do something and I see my mom and my grandmother driving.

• 13:03Speaker 05

  And they parked right there. And I was like, okay, well, it's not gonna be that bad. And then I started to get embarrassed, like, my mom is here.

• 13:10Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 13:11Speaker 05

  And so I think she's starting to scuffle and then the car drove off and she kinda saw that it was gonna be okay. It wasn't like, we're not gonna shank each other or something. And so, yeah, that was my welcome to California.

• 13:23Tim Ferriss?

  Wait a second. So did you guys get into it?

• 13:26Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

• 13:28Tim Ferriss?

  How did it end afterwards? What was the end result?

• 13:31Speaker 05

  So I think when 10-year-olds fight, like, you try to throw some punches. This is what I remember. Tried to throw some punches, he tried to throw some punches. We end up wrestling, it went to the ground, all the other kids split it up. And then I got up and I was like, am I cool now? And so, and it was fine. It worked out just fine.

• 13:47Tim Ferriss?

  What was your high school experience like?

• 13:50Speaker 05

  High school, I jumped down to Southern California. Same exact story from 4th grade. Same exact thing, but the guys were a little bit bigger.

• 14:01Tim Ferriss?

  Fight Club SoCal.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  Fight Club SoCal. There it is. And I just didn't know their way. I didn't know their style yet about how to be, you know, in high school. I didn't even know how to be myself. And so, we show up, or I showed up, and I end up getting in another fight with this kid. Blood was all over the place. And I took off my shirt and I was like, dude, let's stop. You know, and he's bleeding out, let's stop. And so, I'll never forget that because he and I, David Hall's his name, he and I became great friends. Really great friends. He brought me in, showed me how the surfing culture works. And I surfed some of the biggest waves, you know, with him in high school. So it ended up being a really cool transition for me.

• 14:42Tim Ferriss?

  So you mentioned not knowing yourself, or not knowing how to be yourself.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:47Tim Ferriss?

  Can you elaborate on that?

• 14:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, so...

• 14:52Speaker 05

  I don't know when, I don't know exactly when people become the person that they're sorting out to become. But there is, there is a transition that that does happen for people. And for me, I was, I was very late in figuring out who I was. And so I was very, very busy early on in my life, up until this point and further through first year of college, where I cared so much, so much about what other people thought of me. I was consumed with it. I would, and, and so it's now, studying it, it's called cognitive dissonance, where it's almost nearly impossible to be in the present moment, because part of you is working on monitoring the way that you look, or you might be perceived by another person.

• 15:37Speaker 05

  And it's a really painful experience to be caught in the consumption of what another person might be thinking. You mentioned surfing. Was that a small, moderate, big piece of your life? The biggest. How did it fit in? Yeah. In, so younger, younger years, I had a reaction to being coached. And I didn't like the way it felt for another human to tell me yes or no, or give me approval, because I was already so sensitive to it. It's like my cup was full. Was that in surfing? No, not in surfing. That was in stick, traditional stick and ball sports. So I moved away from that, because my cup was already full. And to have another adult, you know, coach me or critique me in front of peers was just, it was just too much.

• 16:22Speaker 05

  And I think that's the case for a lot of kids. Sure. I don't think I was unique in that. I was an anxious, overly aggressive through compensation kid. You know, so I came from an anxious place. Did that ever affect your surfing? Yeah. The anxiousness that I felt while surfing actually kept me from pursuing it competitively. And so the idea, the thing I cared most about, and I had this other part of me that was just crippled by being consumed about what others were thinking, that I couldn't feel my feet, I couldn't feel my body, I couldn't access. What I knew that I was capable of doing. And so, any given day in free surfing, it was fine. And I was one of the guys, right? But then as soon as the tent would go up, as soon as the judges showed up,

• 17:06Speaker 05

  as soon as the friends and family showed up, all of a sudden, my brain was overloaded with what could go wrong. Because that is the essence of what anxiety is. A consumption of what could go wrong.

• 17:19Tim Ferriss?

  And you couldn't get there because you had this dominating anxiety?

• 17:22Speaker 05

  Anxiousness.

• 17:24Tim Ferriss?

  Did you have any inkling of what you wanted to be when you grew up at that point?

• 17:27Speaker 05

  I didn't even know the field of high-performance in sports psychology existed. I thought I was gonna go to junior college, surf as much as I possibly could, because I figured that out in high school. And it would just be a nice little two-year run, you know, junior college. And then I met two mentors, three mentors, three professors that were best friends. Dr. Cuzio, Dr. Perkins, and Dr. Zanka. And they're a theologian, a philosopher, and a psychologist. And they saw me coming, right? They saw this kid that was just bumbling through life. And those three wrapped their arm around me and showed me how to love and be fascinated by the invisible.

• 18:12Speaker 05

  I love saying their names.

• 18:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Describe for us the first meeting with any of those three.

• 18:20Speaker 05

  I think it was the philosophy class, Dr. Zanka, or Dr. Perkins. And I showed up into his class and I was like, "Well, who are these people? You know, Aristotle and Plato and Seneca. And like, who are these people? Like, that's some real stuff." They offered me to take this special class, like this leadership invite-only kind of class. And they took, they gave us Tao Te Ching.

• 18:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 05

  Okay? Which is a fascinating read, if you, I'm sure that you've spent some time with it. And they gave us The Art of Seeing, these two books.

• 18:54Tim Ferriss?

  The Art of Seeing?

• 18:54Speaker 05

  The Art of Seeing.

• 18:55Tim Ferriss?

  Like the title, I don't know the book.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  Beautiful book, yeah. Both of them are about the same style, very poetic, very deep. And they had, there was about 15 of us. And they said, "Hey, listen, we're gonna go to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. That's what this class is. We're gonna teach you how to live on your own for a week." And then the only rule is that you get these two books, a pencil, and a pad of paper, and that's it, that you cannot see any other person for that week. Life-changing.

• 19:23Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 19:24Speaker 05

  Rad. I wish everybody could do that.

• 19:26Tim Ferriss?

  That sounds like the most amazing class ever.

• 19:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, really. And so it just go get lost, literally, and go see what you find. And it was hard.

• 19:34Tim Ferriss?

  What did you write about?

• 19:36Speaker 05

  You know, I don't know. I don't know. I wish I could tell you what I wrote, but I experienced something that changed me.

• 19:45Tim Ferriss?

  Well, what was the experience? Describe the experience to us.

• 19:47Speaker 05

  Being scared, figuring out how to face anxiety. And because I'm alone by myself, which is my head and my hands and my feet, and that's it. And this pad of paper and these rich texts, and there was nothing else for me to turn to. And it was just, you know, when you face down that stuff, and I mean really face your ghosts, and really face the things that haunt you the most.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  It changes you.

• 20:24Tim Ferriss?

  After you came back from that experience, how did your goals or direction change?

• 20:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, it just felt like, you know, there was this gradual switching on to, like there was this thirst and hunger to try to understand how the human experience works. And it's complicated. There's no shortcut to the path of mastery or understanding the complexity and the beauty of the human experience. It's complicated. And so I wrapped up a bachelor's degree in psychology, and I didn't know anything. You don't know anything with that. Master's degree in kinesiology, because I want to understand the body a little bit more. I didn't know anything. PhD in psychology with an emphasis in performance. And across the hall was a Tibetan Buddhist psychology program, so we had this east meets west. You know, I still didn't know anything. And so, and I'm not saying I know it now.

• 21:12Speaker 05

  I'm saying that like it's hard to understand the nuances of how the human mind, body and spirit work. And so that's kind of, that was the beginnings for me of that trajectory.

• 21:24Tim Ferriss?

  When did you start honing in on or discovering for that matter, sports psychology or performance psychology?

• 21:31Speaker 05

  So I had a mentor, Gary de Blasio, who helped shape my understanding of myself during those college years. When I graduated from school, I was like, I don't know what to do now. And he said, well, there's this part-time temporary job. And it became an 18-year run, wildly successful, using sport and psychology to teach young men in Los Angeles every Saturday night, the basic, basic, most basic mechanics of how the mind works. It was phenomenal and it was wonderful. And so what I was doing is I had this working laboratory, the beginnings of a working laboratory of how to take the ivory tower stuff and land it to a group of hundred, a hundred or so

• 22:15Speaker 05

  kids that really didn't want to listen to me, but wanted to play ball.

• 22:19Tim Ferriss?

  And that was the price they had to pay?

• 22:20Speaker 05

  That was, that was the price they had to pay. And so, and so that was the beginnings of kind of.

• 22:25Tim Ferriss?

  What would be an example of one of your most successful or best received of those talks? And I don't expect you to remember all the details, but just to give an example of how you take something that could be very complex and put it into a 15-minute presentation or something like that, what might be a principle that you would talk about?

• 22:42Speaker 05

  Starting with figuring out who you are is the largest work you can do as a human. But when we start there, it can, it's so kind of big and heavy to begin, so it begins to seem overwhelming. So I would say like in a perfect world where people are like, I want to do whatever it takes to be my very best, to have a deep, meaningful life and to kick ass at what I do. Like I want to, I'm going to do the work. Then I begin there. And we just go on a journey to figure out, how can you articulate who you are in one to 20 words? And the litmus test for that is that under, under duress, imagine that we're met in a dark alley and you and I have done this work.

• 23:22Tim Ferriss?

  I've heard about your fighting stories. I don't want to be in a dark alley, do you?

• 23:26Speaker 05

  I was in fourth grade, right? And yeah, I didn't know what to do with my hands. So in, imagine we're in a dark alley. We've done the work. What happens for most human beings is that they'll do the intellectual work to say, "This is my philosophy." And they'll spend a lot of thoughtful time to shape that in just the right way. But under duress, somebody comes behind you with a knife, right? And they say, "Hey, listen, I'm gutting people that can't say what they stand for." Most people can't get it out. So it begins with the foundation. Who are you? How do you make decisions is what a philosophy is.

• 23:59Tim Ferriss?

  What would be an example, maybe you have one yourself, but it could be hypothetical, an example of the one to 20-word answer?

• 24:07Speaker 05

  If you think about some of the, if you think globally about the most influential people in the world, they're political leaders and spiritual leaders. That's who shapes our global culture. So what is Jesus's philosophy? What is Buddha's philosophy? What would Jesus's be? Love. What would Buddha's be? Loving kindness. All people suffer. Have compassion. So why do we know, what was Martin Luther King Jr.'s philosophy? Dr. King was about equality. We know it because he was clear about what it was. He said it. He walked about it. He talked about it. And when he went in a room, it was real. And that's what he talked about all and did as a life effort. There's no confusion. So mine is, every day is an opportunity for a living masterpiece. And that's the way I orientate my life every day.

• 24:51Speaker 05

  And I'm training those important words inside of it every day. And so I see this as a gift that you've given me to be able to share the things that I think about a lot. So, thank you.

• 25:01Tim Ferriss?

  You're welcome.

• 25:06Tim Ferriss?

  This is fun for me. So it's a gift to me as well. I really appreciate it.

• 25:10Speaker 05

  And do you have a philosophy?

• 25:14Tim Ferriss?

  I would say, the first thing that comes to mind is, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. I mean, it's...

• 25:19Speaker 05

  Is that the thing that, that, that makes your heart thump a little bit? And that's how you make decisions? You push it through that filter?

• 25:25Tim Ferriss?

  That's how I make a lot of decisions.

• 25:27Speaker 05

  Say it again.

• 25:28Tim Ferriss?

  Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

• 25:30Speaker 05

  Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. And is there a word?

• 25:32Tim Ferriss?

  That's not what drives, that's more of a sort of an operating system rule, like a logical rule that I use for preparation, definitely, but it wouldn't be the thing that drives me.

• 25:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I think when you get that thing right, you go, that's it. And so I'll tell you a quick little litmus test for it. Is that if there's a word or a part of that sentence where your heart thumps just a little bit, it's like there's a skipping of a beat. There's a, we can describe why that takes place. That's when you know you're on to something. When it's like, that's it. I just, God, that's big. I hope I can do that. I don't know if you, the person across me can understand it, but it's that type of beautiful work to articulate the thing that is pure about you. And, and that, it's a decision-making framework of how you push everything that you do. Why you buy your car, or your clothes, or why you're here. You know, so that's what it's about.

• 26:26Tim Ferriss?

  What was your first paid gig with an athlete?

• 26:29Speaker 05

  He was a professional hockey player, and he was on the minor leagues. And he had all this potential. Now, the word potential can be a crippler.

• 26:36Tim Ferriss?

  Because you get performance anxiety about the expectations?

• 26:40Speaker 05

  Yeah. So when we have our little kids, parents, as we have our kids and we say you have great potential, we have to be thoughtful about how we share that word with them. Because it can create expectations that there's more, which is great, but the idea that you're not reaching your potential is right on the other, am I reaching my potential? It's right on the other side of it. And so we did some great work. We worked through some stuff. And then he said, I got my shot. I said, oh, boy, I hope, I hope this thing works. Because I, at that point, I don't, I didn't really know what I was doing. But I was asking questions, and I was present with them, and I was, you know. And so, um, he got a shot and crushed it, and he did great. And, you know, so we hugged it out afterwards. It was one of those, you know, beautiful moments that you just, you think about, like, the celebration

• 27:25Speaker 05

  of the strong man or woman, you know, who is nervous and scared figuring it out. It was, it was wonderful.

• 27:31Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of the most fascinating pre-performance routines, or effective, that you've seen?

• 27:36Speaker 05

  Okay. So as a strategy to find one's ideal competitive mindset, right? There's some good research and science around having a routine to go through, like almost like a checklist to turn on or activate that mindset. The not great examples are superstitions. That's not what we're talking about. Like if I hop over the line or I do something, if I wear my dirty socks, I'm going to be successful. That's awful, right? It's like that. There's a lot of people are upset with me because like that's part of like the entire baseball tradition, right? It's archaic. It's bad science. It's not good. It creates a fragile mindset. Because what happens if your dirty sock is no longer there? Right. We have problems.

• 28:20Speaker 05

  So it's not that. What it is, is having, let's say, one, two or three things. Let's make it super simple, that are triggers for you to think a certain way, for you to adjust your body posture that is in alignment with your ideal competitive mindset. And so take it from the rhetoric into something more applied. There's only a handful of ideal competitive mindsets. Either intense, slanky, smooth, happy, aggressive. There's only a couple of them that people talk about. And then they'll put their own language around it, okay? And so when I tie my shoes, now I'm going to like first trigger, let's say. And you want the athlete or performer to create these on their own.

• 29:02Speaker 05

  When I tie my shoes, what do I say to myself? When I put on my, in my mouthguard, what do I say to myself? When I put my helmet on, what do I say to myself? As I walk through the last threshold, what do I say to myself? What do I do to get me closer to that ideal competitive mindset? So that's what a pre-performance routine is. And I think early on, it's a really great strategy. And I think it's really cool. And you might not ever leave it. But you're taking particular moments in time to activate great thinking and great body posture.

• 29:34Tim Ferriss?

  What about individual versus team? Is it just, is team simply individual multiplied by X number of team members? Or is there a different?

• 29:43Speaker 05

  No, it's like a one plus two equals something different. You know, and so, yeah, it's not one, one, one, one. It's, um, there's an ecosystem, there's a culture that is really important, that allows people the space, or the pressure if you will, to figure out their potential, to figure out how to do something really well. And I've learned so much from Coach Carroll of the Seattle Seahawks about culture, about creating a culture that gives people the space to be the very best they can be.

• 30:14Tim Ferriss?

  So you mentioned Pete Carroll. Let's, let's talk about that for a second. In terms of culture on a team, what are some of the rules or ingredients or that he's put in place to help with culture?

• 30:30Speaker 05

  It begins with the relationship. First with himself and then with the men and women inside of the organization. It's a relationship-based organization. The Seattle Seahawks, what we do is, we do football. But like said company produces a product, or said company produces a service. We produce football, but we are a relationship-based organization is how we think about it. Coach Carroll and myself and the organization.

• 30:55Tim Ferriss?

  When I've looked at coaches in any given sport, there very often are certain behaviors or attitudes, actions that they just do not permit. Is there anything on that list for the Seattle Seahawks?

• 31:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, um, there's three rules in the organization.

• 31:15Tim Ferriss?

  What are they?

• 31:15Speaker 05

  You want one of them?

• 31:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, three. It's really making me work for it. It's like, will he walk out? What is it? My ears, no, I'm just kidding.

• 31:23Speaker 05

  So be early. Always, always, sorry, always protect your team. Rule number one. Rule number two, no whining, no complaining, no excuses. Rule number three, be early. Pretty simple, pretty simple, simple little rules. Always protect your team, have people's back.

• 31:41Speaker 05

  It's not about you being great. It's about figuring out who another person is and celebrate them. Always protect each other. Whether you're in the gear or out of the gear, when you're in the club or in the living room. Take care of each other. And we're gonna create an ecosystem that's trying to do that. The best we possibly can. It's hard. You'd be surprised, maybe you wouldn't be surprised. It's hard to do that.

• 32:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 32:02Speaker 05

  Because people, what happens under duress is they wanna take care of themselves. Or just take care of them and their buddy. No, protect all of us. And so that's a really powerful thought. And then underneath, like no wanting, no complaining, no excuses, like. Own it. Own your stuff now. It is you and your responsibility to bring the very best, to compete, to be the very best, so own your stuff. And he's great how he plays with these two, those two rules. And the third is be early. And what's underneath be early? It's not be on time.

• 32:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 05

  It's be early. Demonstrate that you care about the other people that are part of the system. By organizing your life. By having respect that they're gonna be here too. Cause if people are waiting on you, you're slowing down the whole system. So be early. You know, and so those are the very three basic rules. And I'd say if there's an unwritten rule, it's the word we talk about a lot, it's love. And I've learned so much from the athletes over the last couple of years. Through success, that, uh, public success that we've seen and, and winning Super Bowls and not, and not winning Super Bowls. And I've learned so much from them about, uh, love. And it's been wonderful. I know what you wanna ask right now.

• 33:10Tim Ferriss?

  What do I wanna ask?

• 33:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. You wanna ask about what was it like to win the Super Bowl? What was it like to not win the Super Bowl?

• 33:15Tim Ferriss?

  I, I tell you what, what I, what I'm gonna focus on first is the loss. Tell me about, tell me about the loss. We've had the highlight, we've had the highlight reel so far.

• 33:26Speaker 05

  Let's talk about the loss. I, yeah, okay, the loss. Um, what do you wanna know about the loss?

• 33:34Speaker 05

  There's a lot to talk about.

• 33:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot too. So this is Super Bowl, what is it, 49? I want to know

• 33:43Tim Ferriss?

  the lead up to it. In that game, if you felt, for instance, if you felt like you guys had done the best job possible in preparation, and then the reaction from yourself and the team when you guys lost.

• 33:59Speaker 05

  Sure. What a wild event the Super Bowl is. Like, it is media and glitz and glam and the whole thing is just like amplified. You know, the NFL does a great job of creating a wonderful event of the Super Bowl. And Coach Carroll and the coaching staff are relentless, relentless, and very thoughtful on the first day of practice. This is a championship practice. The first preseason game. A lot of people think preseason games are throwaway games. This is a championship opportunity. The third game of the season. This is a championship game. The next practice, every practice, is a championship opportunity for practice. We get to the Super Bowl, we're prepared. So the first Super Bowl,

• 34:45Speaker 05

  when you do a post-analysis, the other team, Denver Broncos, the other team, were talking in media about, "This is the biggest game of our life." "This is a self-defining, this is it." "This is the moment." "It's the biggest game that we're gonna ever play in, and we're gonna do it." And the Seahawks, "This is another championship opportunity, this is what we do." So we really see it as, this is the opportunity that we're prepared for. It's not, I say, there's no such thing as a big game.

• 35:13Speaker 05

  There's no such thing as a big practice, no such thing as a big play. There's just this moment. Coach Carroll says, "Every game is big, every practice is huge, every play is important." And so let's maximize it now, in this moment. We get to the same exact place. And so it's a relentless training to be as present as you possibly can, and never let that...

• 35:37Speaker 05

  Influence this, that it comes from within. And that's dictating your experience in environment rather than being dictated to. And so, so I need to share that with you because the win, that's idyllic and it happens all the time. It's theoretical, but and it's applied. The win, it's easy to win. The loss and the way that the loss was experienced in the second Super Bowl was dramatic. Coach Carroll did two amazing things that I think are the demonstration of a philosophy at work. So, right after that happened, he's on the sidelines. I didn't see this, but I saw the tape afterwards. He's on the sidelines and he just, he watches the play happen. He's

• 36:19Speaker 05

  in it. And then the play unfolded where the ball was intercepted and he dropped his head. It's about two second beat and then his head comes back up. And when his head comes back up, the thought, I hope he's okay with me sharing it because it's beautiful. The thought that he had was, I gotta be there for my guys. Oh, just, that's what, that's what it is. When you care so much, you don't get overwhelmed by your pain. You feel it. But then, I gotta be there for my men.

• 36:48Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not a football guy. I know very little about it. I can enjoy watching it. I enjoy Super Bowl parties. I enjoy highlight reels. I can recognize a hit that I wouldn't want to take. But the Seahawks actually came onto my radar about, I want to say a year ago when I read a Sports Illustrated piece about a book on Stoicism, The Obstacle is the Way, that it's sort of somehow found its way into the ranks of the NFL, including the Seahawks.

• 37:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 37:14Tim Ferriss?

  And I read this with great interest. You mentioned Seneca. I'm a huge fan of Seneca, Marcus Aurelius. It's one of the philosophical schools I pay a lot of attention to. And when you think of not overreacting to

• 37:31Tim Ferriss?

  Factors fora do seu controle, ou emocionalmente reagindo a situações. Parece que você tem que desenvolver um certo grau de consciência. Então, o que eu queria perguntar a você, porque isso vem de uma maneira indireta algumas vezes, é a consciência. Qual papel desse jogo em seu mundo?

• 37:51Speaker 05

  Então, um centro, você sabe, é um centro para com certeza. A consciência, a habilidade de estar aqui agora. Uma maneira particular de focar em o que está acontecendo dentro e fora de si mesmo em qualquer momento. Tipo, sem isso, eu não estou certo, eu não estou certo como podemos se tornar tudo o que queremos se tornar. Eu não estou certo como explorar a profundidade da experiência humana sem estar consciente. E então, a consciência é, é, é um pilar central. É uma prática de dia em dia, e quanto mais eu falo sobre isso, mais eu gosto.

• 38:28Speaker 05

  E então, você sabe, eu acho que foi em 2000, 2001, quando eu primeiro comecei a entender o que era realmente sobre, de um mentor que compartilhava comigo. E é apenas um processo invisível de se tornar mais consciente.

• 38:47Tim Ferriss?

  E para aqueles que estão perguntando, como eu fiz por muito tempo, eu fui para fora e, em uma maneira muito, não de maneira de risco, mas de maneira de escatada, comprei todos os livros que eu pude encontrar sobre meditação, consciência. E eu saí daí e falei, eu estou mais confuso agora do que eu era quando comecei.

• 39:03Speaker 05

  Sim.

• 39:04Tim Ferriss?

  E, você tem qualquer recomendação para pessoas que gostariam de desenvolver esse tipo de consciência? Como eles podem começar a praticar, ou recursos ou guias ou qualquer coisa que você possa sugerir?

• 39:17Speaker 05

  Há mais e mais recursos disponíveis para pessoas que querem ir ler sobre isso, ou assistir a um vídeo sobre isso, mas isso não é como, isso não é como funciona. Então, o pensamento é fazer isso, é sentar ou andar ou deitar ou onde for mais confortável para você em uma determinada. Moment and pay attention to one breath at a time and start over and over and over and over again. And so it's the practice of it that is the work. And so I don't think you need to read about it.

• 39:47Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 39:47Speaker 05

  I would say start first and mechanically just begin with paying attention to your breathing. And then when your mind wanders, which it will, like the natural state of a mind is like a drunk monkey and it wanders. And I don't know if yours is double fisted, maybe.

• 40:00Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know where, what kind of show is this?

• 40:05Speaker 05

  So drunk monkeys will get wild, right?

• 40:07Tim Ferriss?

  Certainly.

• 40:09Speaker 05

  So like all of us, we're burdened and amused by the drunk monkey. And so getting, having a relationship with it and bringing it back, come on back to right now. That's, that's the work. And so you don't practice it, you don't get good at it.

• 40:24Tim Ferriss?

  Are there any?

• 40:26Speaker 05

  But you know, can I finish?

• 40:27Tim Ferriss?

  You can finish.

• 40:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I want to make sure we don't stop there because the real purpose of mindfulness work is insight and wisdom. And so without, without awareness, I'm not sure how to help myself or another person reveal the wisdom and insight within. So that's the real essence of it, like it's a deep process. And if we only stopped with awareness, we'd be butchering an ancient tradition that modern science is finding to be incredible for change and growth. So I want to make sure that both of those bookends are included.

• 41:01Tim Ferriss?

  No, for sure. I mean, it seems to me as someone who's only meditated consistently, and I'm not saying it's the same as mindfulness. There are different ways to go about it, but for the last, I want to say two to three years, I mean, pretty recent. As a percentage of my lifetime, it seems like the awareness is putting on the prescriptive glasses that brings things into clarity, but then you also have to look at the right things. If you're just like reading People Magazine all day, every day, no offense People Magazine, I still love you. But you, you also have to focus that clarity on the right areas personally.

• 41:35Speaker 05

  And then I would add to listen as well.

• 41:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 05

  Right, a big part of it, especially in modern times, it's hard to listen, you know, because there's so much external stimulation and stuff coming in from all over the globe, you know, and we have it in our palm of our hand. So spending that time to integrate, literally integrate our senses, you know, from what's happening within and what's happening in the environment and just listen. And that, the journey home there is. Daunting.

• 42:01Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any suggestions for people who have kind of wobbled trying this in the past?

• 42:06Speaker 05

  So you can do a coach, you can do a digital coach, which is what an app is. You could read about it.

• 42:11Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 42:11Speaker 05

  And you can also sit and pay attention to one breath at a time. And so there's lots of ways to begin. It's the beginning, the process of mindfulness is beginning a thousand times. You know, and over and over again, it's the process of starting over. So if you just kind of, it's hard, it really is hard to sell this. I think the people, I think it's impossible to sell it because not until you understand it and feel it, and not until you're around people that are so grounded and so aware and so switched on and are able to adjust eloquently to whatever environment, do you go, I want some of that. What is that?

• 42:53Speaker 05

  So that is, I think, building a community of people that are switched on in that way, you just want it and, you know.

• 43:01Tim Ferriss?

  We have such an engaged, incredible audience this evening, let's go to some audience questions. All right. This first question is from Robert McBride. Robert?

• 43:14Tim Ferriss?

  When do you know, or how do you know when to draw the line? These are dangerous activities in some cases that can and often do result in injury or death.

• 43:22Speaker 05

  I think about that question a lot. And that's the thing that keeps me up. It really keeps me up at night. And so here's my thoughts around it is, I remember the first time I presented at a conference about some work I was doing in the fight game. There was a group of psychologists in the back and they were saying, how are you doing this? And they were pissed, like, how are you helping other people damage each other? You know, and so that's when it really hit me that...

• 43:52Speaker 05

  They are grown adults that have a real thing that they want to do that is very meaningful to them. And I might, I just might be able to help them unlock some ways of thinking and being that will create safety for them when they're in harm's way.

• 44:09Tim Ferriss?

  What was an opportunity or a situation, as you are becoming better known, that made you, whether it's nervous or just put you on the spot in an emotional sense?

• 44:21Speaker 05

  Well, I'll tell you the one that I was, um, Luke Akins who jumped out of an airplane at 25,000 feet, first person to do so without a parachute, into a net that he designed and rigged with a team of engineers. Uh, the consequences, it's a binary outcome. He lives or he dies. And you gotta be all in. You have to love deeply. Because you don't know the next time you'll see him. You have to care deeply and be fully present. And you gotta get some stuff right. You really have to get some stuff right. Because if I'm arming him with the wrong strategy or approach on how to be fully present, that could be really dangerous for him. And I feel privileged. I feel privileged to be that intimate with people that are that skilled

• 45:06Speaker 05

  and that open to growth. And that have said, publicly, sometimes said, "I want to learn more." "I don't have all the answers and I need it to be successful." Who better, for me, who better than to learn from people that are chipping in and pushing the frontier? And for me, when the consequences are real, I'm way more interested because there's so much more to learn, I think.

• 45:32Tim Ferriss?

  Well, not only real but clear, right? I mean, you can, you can measure the outcome.

• 45:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, for sure. You know, and that's what I was most attracted to, are those environments where consequences were on the line. And many consequences in sport are like money or fame. You know, future contracts or twisted ankles or reputation, you know, something along those lines for most stick-in-ball sports. Um, the off-access sports where people are in the rugged back countries doing things that have never been done before, you know, those, those... .0005% of people, like the fractional frontier explorers, are such rare people, we need them.

• 46:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 05

  We need to understand them because they're doing the things that you and I are not doing, or maybe even capable of doing. So they teach us about the frontier when they come back and live.

• 46:19Tim Ferriss?

  This question is from Jeffrey N. Where are you Jeffrey N? All right, and here's a question. What is something everyone should do on an everyday basis?

• 46:30Tim Ferriss?

  That's it?

• 46:31Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 46:33Speaker 05

  Love deeply.

• 46:37Tim Ferriss?

  Good advice.

• 46:44Tim Ferriss?

  Is there any practice that you have in your life for ensuring that that is the case?

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's practicing openness, practicing vulnerability, if you will, practicing saying the difficult things that are difficult to say. And so, love is an action. It requires doing loving things. And one of the most important things we can do is be present with people. That's a loving act. You know, we're doing it right now.

• 47:10Tim Ferriss?

  Oh. It was like a lady in the trap moment, you see that? Like, I'm missing the spaghetti though.

• 47:17Speaker 05

  So, that's the practice. Like, can you be present with another person? Then can you say the difficult things? It's hard to look away right now. And then can you, like, can you be there when they want to do the same thing?

• 47:29Tim Ferriss?

  A question from Michael Charles. I suppose this is how this is said, from Facebook. What is the first step from coming back from massive failure?

• 47:40Speaker 05

  Massive failure? I guess we'd have to operationalize what massive failure is. So, I don't really think about it in those terms.

• 47:47Tim Ferriss?

  Let's say the players after the Super Bowl loss.

• 47:51Speaker 05

  So what do you do after? What is the process?

• 47:54Tim Ferriss?

  That's right.

• 47:55Speaker 05

  The value of front-loading a philosophy, I can't say enough about it. Because it becomes something, it becomes a compass. And so, this pain that one is feeling is measured against the compass. It's measured against the tent pole. So, front-loading is a really important process. If you don't have that in place, it's really hard.

• 48:14Tim Ferriss?

  So they already have the coping software pre-installed?

• 48:16Speaker 05

  And it still took a long time, you know? So, I'd say, if we think about massive failure, again, the way I think about failure is just playing it safe and small and not going for it when you know you have more to give. Is to feel the pain. That's the first, right? Like feel that pain and sit in the pain.

• 48:33Tim Ferriss?

  Don't try to lock it down.

• 48:33Speaker 05

  No, don't try to push it away. Feel it. The only reason, I don't have any science around this other than my experiences. The only reason people change is because of pain. So the worst thing, a worst thing a friend could do, or a psychologist could do, or a coach could do is take away pain. Because pain is the impetus to be able to say, "I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore."

• 48:57Tim Ferriss?

  This question is from Zach D. Zach D., where are you? All right. Question is, you have a lot of advice for top performers in high-stakes scenarios. What would your advice be to the everyday person working a nine-to-five job?

• 49:10Speaker 05

  Same, it's same stuff. First order of business is, good question. I tend not to think about advice giving very much, or at all. Because I don't, I don't know the path that people have walked. And so I need to learn a lot. And in that, in those questions and that relationship building, so much is learned from both people. So there's a lot revealed in just the beginnings of that. So if I kind of put that into a way that you could maybe, or we could operationalize that, is like be in relationships where people really genuinely care. Like find those relationships where they really want to see you do well. And so you'll have conversations and stimulating questions and responses that get to the center of stuff. So that would be the first thing I would suggest.

• 49:55Speaker 05

  The second is from the craft standpoint of the skills that I've come to learn from science and people in the rugged environments is, being present is very, very important. Like it's like almost mission critical. And so figuring out a way for you or us to be more present in our lives is foundational. And mindfulness would be one of the great practices. Another way for enhancing the ability to be present is conversation. So there's three ways that I like to think about the process of awareness and insight is, great conversations, writing, and then mindfulness, which is listening. And then the third would be, know who you are and Let it rip. Like, flat out let it rip. Nine to five, what does that mean?

• 50:40Speaker 05

  It's like, you've got a, you've got a life that you're living, and it's now, and there's nowhere other than now. So know who you are and never let, refuse to, let somebody or an environment dictate your experience in life. And when you do have those moments...

• 51:00Speaker 05

  And I, I, I say that, Tim, because I lived it for so long. And it's so painful. It's so painful to, to be consumed with what others think. So I would say that those are the three. And then, so how do you do that? Get after it. Every day. Get after it and put yourself in these really uncomfortable, emotionally uncomfortable situations where you can feel, so that you can adjust.

• 51:24Tim Ferriss?

  This next question is from Connor McCloskey. Where's Connor?

• 51:27Speaker 05

  Where's Connor?

• 51:28Tim Ferriss?

  Connor's right there. You mentioned studying Seneca in college, or at least reading Seneca. How much of a role does Stoicism play in your life?

• 51:37Speaker 05

  Good question.

• 51:40Speaker 05

  Stoicism as an idea, like the center of it, and I'd love some brushing up on it from, from you, is like, control what you can. Like, just, just pay attention to getting that stuff right. So if you think about mastery, and this is a, the thing that I'm most interested in as a craft, right? Like, what is the process of mastery? And what is it in particular? I'll tell you what, it keeps coming up over and over again, whether it's Seneca or the, some of the ancient traditions and the wise men that are doing the thing today. They are relentlessly talking about, "Listen, I don't have time for all that other noise." It's about, "I want to have great thoughts, great actions, great effort, great attitude. I want to control the stuff that's in my control. All that other stuff, I'm working to gate it out." And so...

• 52:28Tim Ferriss?

  So if you had the opportunity to put a few words, short message on a gigantic billboard, in other words, just get it out to the world, what would you put on the billboard?

• 52:39Speaker 05

  It's gonna sound too campy. I mean, I want to say something really clever and smart or whatever that, you know, could, I don't know. But it'd be pretty frickin' simple. You know, it would be love. You know, just frickin' do that great, you know? And so...

• 52:58Speaker 05

  And then I'd say, like, if there was something, something like with a sharper edge to it, you know? Not that love is soft, it's really hard to do. But if there was something with a sharper edge, I'd say that billboard would read, "Make a decision, build capacity, and test yourself." You know, I think it would be those three things, like, and test yourself, yep.

• 53:21Tim Ferriss?

  And if you could make one request of everybody watching this, just like a next step, a suggestion, whatever it might be, an ask of the audience, what would it be?

• 53:34Speaker 05

  Each one of us are on a unique journey. And that journey is not determined by what you do, but rather who you are. So the journey is a journey of self-discovery. And I would want, it would be wonderful if people would embrace, more people would embrace a true authentic journey of self-discovery. And then with that discovery, to be able to share those insights and gifts with others. And so that kind of relationship-based amplification of authenticity would be like phenomenal if more people could go down that path. And then I'd add a layer on top of it would say, you know, get in really rugged and hostile environments and feel what it feels like to be on the razor's edge.

• 54:18Speaker 05

  And be overwhelmed by it, and then come to love that razor's edge. And then the last would be, learn how to be here now. You know, like, learn how to work with your own mind, to be in the present moment, and increase the frequency of being able to do that across many different environments. And I think if we could get some sort of those threes, those three things right, like, test yourself, go on your authentic journey, and be here now, like, we'd be onto some cool stuff.

• 54:44Speaker 06

  Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Michael Truitt.

• 54:51Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between 1.5 and 2 million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half-page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things

• 55:36Tim Ferriss?

  end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday. Type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday. Drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.