You Need Help to Help Her

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? A husband and wife are united in their desire to help their daughter, two years after she suffered a breakdown and moved home, shutting herself off from her family and friends. Esther urges them to examine the way pressure and expectations – no matter how well-intentioned – can shape a child’s upbringing. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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• 1:35Speaker 02

  We don't understand what's happened or how to help her and what parts we even can help her with and what parts she just has to figure out.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  The specific things of this happened or this happened or this is going on, it's not as important as we need to get her better. I mean, whether that's next week, next month, next year, we just need to get her better.

• 2:02Esther Perel?

  In a family, there are various couples. One, the intimate couple, the spousal couple. But the other is also the parental couple. This couple came in not for marital issues, but for difficulties and challenges that they were having between them and their daughter.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  She was diagnosed with bipolar and anxiety and depression, PTSD, all of the above in the last two years.

• 2:34Speaker 03

  We haven't told, we don't talk about it with our family. There's maybe two people who know.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Like, I can't keep lying. I feel like I'm lying to everybody. Lying to family, I'm lying to friends. I couldn't even imagine not doing this with somebody.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  I could imagine tearing people apart. Easy, very easy.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03Esther Perel?

  The parents have sought help, but they received help as a couple. And it seemed to me that this couple doesn't need help as a couple. This couple needs help as parents speaking to their daughter.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  This is Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  She's gone from a successful, motivated college student on a scholarship to spending 22 hours a day in her room, on the computer, talking with friends, but not interacting.

• 3:52Esther Perel?

  In the world.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  In the real world. She's really contained herself.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Maybe partly for preservation. It's a comfortable place for her. She's not going to school. She's not working. She's not interacting with family. She interacts a little bit with us. She's eating and but, I mean, there's been days when she doesn't eat very well. She's taking medication. She sees a therapist. You know, we went from her taking credits and being on the dean's list and, you know, traveling internationally with school to this 180-degree change in

• 4:42Speaker 02

  what she's able to do.

• 4:46Esther Perel?

  As I listen to them describe the voluntary confinement of the daughter in her room for such an extended period of time, two years, I'm reminded of the Japanese phenomenon of hikikomori, where young people withdraw into their rooms, become recluse, disconnect from society, except through the internet, of which they are in utter control over the curation of every detail of the story that they live.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  You know, we want her to be passionate about something, to be happy and healthy in whatever her future holds. And we're trying to work with her, but we don't understand what's happened or how to help her and what parts what parts we even can help her with and what parts she just has to figure out. And, you know, we have a really strong marriage. I think every day. About the people were doing this alone. I don't know how anybody could do that. And I'm really fortunate to be doing it with somebody that I could talk to and cry to.

• 6:03Esther Perel?

  Who cries more?

• 6:04Speaker 02

  I do.

• 6:06Esther Perel?

  You sure? He started before you here.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  It's something I've always done. I'm a very talented crier.

• 6:15Esther Perel?

  Tell me something. What support do you would get?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Besides each other?

• 6:22Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  We recently, like in the last month, we started to see a couples counselor who was suggested by our daughter's counselor. What's helpful actually has been able to be in a place where we can talk with somebody who is besides the two of us, who's not a friend or family member, somebody who's outside of the situation and can listen and make some suggestions, although she doesn't have answers.

• 6:52Esther Perel?

  Right. But do you have a group of parents?

• 6:58Speaker 03

  No, we aren't.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:00Speaker 03

  I mean, we have parents.

• 7:02Esther Perel?

  But a group of parents who have situations around their children, their adult children, that are challenging?

• 7:13Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  No.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  And honestly, we haven't been talking about it a lot. So I'm not talking to somebody and somebody says, you know, I know somebody, a friend of mine or my sister-in-law or something like that. They...

• 7:25Speaker 02

  We haven't been talking about it.

• 7:31Esther Perel?

  Whenever I work with a family where there is an acute crisis like that and they have not gotten the help they need, I think that for many therapists, there can be a trigger of wanting to have the savior in us that maybe I'll be able to offer something because I experienced their disappointment, their depletion, their despair, and I want to jump in. But that's actually the moment where I have to hold back a little bit.

• 8:04Esther Perel?

  Okay, here's what I'm gonna suggest. We're gonna talk together. I'm gonna think out loud, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Okay, the last thing I wanna do is barge in as if I have answers. I don't, but I have some ideas sometimes of... Or at least I ask questions out loud and then we can kind of... Like, for example, this idea that you think you are protecting her by colluding with her in the withdrawal from the world. Because you are withdrawing from the world as well.

• 8:45Esther Perel?

  You're doing a parallel process. She's not talking, you're not talking. She's hiding, you're hiding. So you're trapped in her approach and there is no help that can come in.

• 9:02Esther Perel?

  I understand.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  I think that pretty well sums it up.

• 9:04Esther Perel?

  You need help to help her. You understand? You need the input so that you can then help her. The idea that you are protecting her by colluding in the same silence as her and by withdrawing from the world like her is creating shame for you, isolation, and I'm not sure it's helping her.

• 9:31Esther Perel?

  Isolation only works when you have contagious disease. For pneumonia, she does not have a contagious disease. You need the presence of others. And if you go into the silence, it only adds to the shame and to the lying and to the feeling that you are more and more removed from the world. And so now it's happening to her and now it's happening to the parents too.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  Is there an alternative?

• 10:00Esther Perel?

  Yes, the alternative is, I don't have a clue what the diagnosis is, but there's too many labels. What we know is you have a girl who was vivacious, talented, motivated, but with enormous pressure on herself. And wanted to do well. And may not have known to say, "This is too much", or "I don't want to do as much", or "This is a little too hard for me",

• 10:29Esther Perel?

  and fell apart. And as a result, is retreating. But not completely, she's, the beautiful internet allows her to type away for 14 hours a day. And she's talking about something with somebody. And for all we know, she may be talking with a group of other kids like her, because there are lots of them, who are also locked up in their rooms.

• 10:58Esther Perel?

  So that's very good. And I would continue to encourage her connecting with those people. But so do you need to connect with the people. Because if you don't get support, you won't be able to help her. And you don't need support so much as a couple. You need support actually as parents of a child who broke down in the midst of thriving and needs to rebuild herself. Slowly, step, step.

• 11:30Esther Perel?

  And it happens to the brightest of them. And sometimes they saw it coming, they felt something, but they didn't want to say, they don't want to disappoint, they don't want to disappoint the parents. Everybody's riding on them, there is pride, you know, of all what she's accomplishing, and so there's the sense of, "I'm letting everybody else down, let alone myself."

• 11:50Esther Perel?

  Am I describing you somewhat?

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:55Esther Perel?

  You know, the labels to me are important, but they don't describe anything. They don't describe the experience. They just give you a framework. I need to know her experience. And that means I want to help you have conversations with her. What, who did you talk to today? You know, what are you discussing? You know? Try to reengage in a normal conversation that is anything but they were trying to get you to be better.

• 12:27Esther Perel?

  She talks to both of you or only one of you?

• 12:30Speaker 02

  She decided recently that she doesn't want to have a mother-daughter relationship. I'm not sure what relationship she wants, but she called me by my first name the other day instead of mom. And I didn't, I just let it go. I didn't react to it. If that helps, I'll take it.

• 12:51Esther Perel?

  Yes, but inside it was like, aye.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Uh huh, yeah. Well, I can think maybe down the road it'll turn around. You know, I can look forward enough to see that.

• 13:03Esther Perel?

  Do friends visit her? Nobody comes to see her?

• 13:07Speaker 02

  No, she's really, as far as I know, like, you know, her friends were trying to reach out for, you know, quite a while, but I think she just kind of blew them off or whatever over time. So it's been several months since she's seen any friends face to face. Even family friends who she's friends with the children. The last time we got together, it was really hard push getting her to come out of her room and join us.

• 13:37Esther Perel?

  And when she did?

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Well, she told me she would, but she told me she would not speak to me after that. I think to both, both of us.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  She was angry because of... They're literally at our door, waiting to go to a restaurant. And she wouldn't, she had the covers over her head and just wasn't gonna come out. So I think she got mad because I took the covers off her head or something and...

• 14:08Speaker 02

  So she came out and interacted, we went out to eat.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  We got in a car after dinner.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, right after dinner, we got back into our car and things. "Wasn't your meal good?" Or, you know, just a small talk and she didn't answer. And I thought, "Oh, she's doing exactly what she said she was gonna do."

• 14:23Esther Perel?

  Did you congratulate her for her determination?

• 14:26Speaker 02

  No, I started crying.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  But that would have been a good, a good answer. That would have been a great answer.

• 14:36Esther Perel?

  I love that you haven't lost your spirit. You always were strong-minded and that is still there. I'll take it.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 14:51Esther Perel?

  What do you think?

• 14:53Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, we haven't done that.

• 14:56Speaker 03

  I don't understand the anger that comes out. And, and I think she will admit that she's just very angry at her.

• 15:10Esther Perel?

  Mom is angry at daughter, or daughter is angry at daughter?

• 15:13Speaker 03

  No, no, no, I think, I think there's, there's just very deep...

• 15:18Speaker 03

  The way this whole thing came out with, you know, I really don't wanna... Really, a mother-daughter relationship, she told me. And I said to her, I said, "You know, I... You, you have to, you can't just not, you know, say that and not carry through and, and tell her and then tell her why." Write it down.

• 15:39Esther Perel?

  You said, you told your daughter...

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 15:42Esther Perel?

  To tell mom why she doesn't want to have a relationship with her?

• 15:46Speaker 03

  Communicate it somehow where there's a continual flow so you get all of it out so that we can understand it.

• 15:56Esther Perel?

  The question is very...

• 16:00Esther Perel?

  You seem to have very strong feelings about mom.

• 16:04Esther Perel?

  And, uh, and you seem to have given this a lot of thought because you wouldn't be arriving at such a conclusion.

• 16:13Esther Perel?

  What's been on your mind?

• 16:16Esther Perel?

  That way, you're not telling her to do anything yet.

• 16:21Esther Perel?

  And I wouldn't say, "Talk to mom."

• 16:24Speaker 03

  You wouldn't?

• 16:24Esther Perel?

  No.

• 16:27Esther Perel?

  No, if I would... In this moment, if you're the one she can... she's willing to speak this to, you can go tell mom or you don't go tell mom. Depends, you know, that's a separate thing. But the first thing I would just say, "Tell me."

• 16:45Esther Perel?

  One of the things that emerges is that the father is triangulated. He's caught in a triangle between his wife and his daughter. And on occasion, the daughter wants to speak to mom by speaking to dad. And at times, that needs to be redirected. And it is accurate for dad to say, "This doesn't belong to me. Tell mom directly." But other times, when daughter says, "I'm having struggles with my mom. I don't want my mom to be my mom. She's not the mom I want her to be." Those kind of things. I think the opportunity is for him to simply say, "How did you get to that conclusion? That's such a painful conclusion. What's going on for you?" And not try to direct her. In fact, just offer the ear

• 17:29Esther Perel?

  and offer the opportunity for her to be in conversation with them rather than just in conversation with her inner depression.

• 17:39Esther Perel?

  You know, the question that often will emerge after that is, is the parent who is having those private conversations with their child meant to keep this for themselves? Or is this actually meant to become a conversation that is then relegated to the other parents? And I think it really varies. In this instance, I don't think there is a secret. The daughter wants the mother to know how she feels. The daughter doesn't feel she can tell the mother directly. The daughter uses the father to be her mouthpiece and her messenger to the mother.

• 18:19Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

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• 20:02Esther Perel?

  I think there is often a unique power to the same sex between parent and child. Father-son, mother-daughter. There's something about the identification there.

• 20:16Esther Perel?

  Not always, but, you know, she was living out your dream. She was living out her dream too, but it was your dream as well.

• 20:27Esther Perel?

  And the turmoil about letting you down. I don't want to do it, but I also let you down.

• 20:36Esther Perel?

  Your reaction to her,

• 20:39Esther Perel?

  which is part helplessness and part rage

• 20:44Esther Perel?

  because of how helpless you feel.

• 20:47Esther Perel?

  Rage is often the flip side of helplessness.

• 20:52Esther Perel?

  And if I cut you off, then I cut off my guilt toward you, my feeling of how much I let you down and my resentment for the pressure that I feel to please you because I always was the great daughter that pleased you.

• 21:10Esther Perel?

  And I don't know how to get from under this whole thing. It's a jumble.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I could see.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  I could see how that could be. That there could be something to that.

• 21:22Speaker 03

  And why wouldn't she have the same reaction to me?

• 21:26Esther Perel?

  Because you're a different person. Because maybe you're not disappointed in the same way. Because maybe she thinks you would love her no matter what. She doesn't have to please you in the same way. Because I don't know, you tell me.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  I have no idea.

• 21:41Esther Perel?

  No?

• 21:47Speaker 02

  She's adopted.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  And we thought maybe that she was having

• 21:54Speaker 02

  that, a conflict with that and related to self-esteem and, you know, who she is. And there's been a few things that happened in her high school time that she talked to us about. One, she looks different than all the, like, most of the other kids in her school. And so I think she had self-esteem issues because kids sometimes teased her.

• 22:22Esther Perel?

  She looked different.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Because she was different. She was born in South Korea. And we went to a, she went to a school that was mostly Caucasian kids.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  I think at the time, it seemed like the right, right place for us. But you look back on it and go, it's just, having no diversity at all just was not good. Not good at all.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  You know, and within our family. We accepted and didn't, the diversity wasn't even there.

• 22:53Esther Perel?

  Is your son also adopted?

• 22:55Speaker 02

  No. You know, I've always said, our son was born through a pregnancy that I carried. She was born, you know, on the other side of the world. They're both miracles. Like, it's just, and we've always treated both of our children that they're just miracles and this was how our, this is our family, it just is. And we forgot that other people don't see that. And also, just her being adopted, you know, you know, kids are cruel. She was told she was a mistake. But we didn't know this till afterward, she held this kind of stuff in.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  And then, I don't think either of those two things are the cause of this, but I think she internalized a lot of things over time that we weren't aware of.

• 23:49Esther Perel?

  It's exactly what you say. When things go well, you think it's the right place. When things don't go well, you start to question all kinds of decisions you made.

• 23:59Esther Perel?

  With the purest intention, the parents so wanted their daughter to be integrated and not to feel any different, that in the end, she couldn't be who she was, which de facto was different, at least racially different. And they now realize that by putting her in an all-white environment, she was isolated, bullied, taunted, and that she couldn't come and talk about it with them. And so, a question that we do have to ask ourselves is, when a child doesn't come home to say, "I've been bullied at school", we do need to ask, is there something in the dynamic, in the environment at home, that silences the child?

• 24:49Esther Perel?

  It is where it is now.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:51Esther Perel?

  And she has been sharing all kinds of difficulty that she had. And sometimes, there's not much to say, but just to hug her. And just to say, "I'm so sorry. I didn't know that you were hurting so badly." "I wish you had been able to come and tell me sooner, but I'm here now." "And I'm so glad I can hear you tell me." Because what happens now is that you're so scared that you're becoming paralyzed.

• 25:24Esther Perel?

  And that has the strange effect sometimes of sending the message to the kid, "I was right not to tell." Because you can't handle it. Because you become so upset when I tell you something that now I have to deal with the fact that you're upset, rather than you deal with the fact that I'm upset.

• 25:45Esther Perel?

  And what she's trying to say when she says, "I don't want to talk to mom," you know, that would be my question. Is it because you don't feel that you can legitimately be her child?

• 25:57Speaker 02

  That she thinks that?

• 25:59Esther Perel?

  When we are down, we have crazy thoughts. Crazy in the sense that we put ourselves down. We don't think we're legitimate. We don't think we deserve.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  And then I guess, maybe because then she's so isolated and she's talking with people who aren't part of our... We don't know, they don't know us. I think possibly she's confirming whatever she's thinking.

• 26:27Esther Perel?

  Could very...

• 26:27Speaker 02

  That I'm a terrible this or that.

• 26:29Esther Perel?

  Or that she doesn't deserve you, that you're not really her mother, is what she's trying to say. But not because you haven't been a good mother.

• 26:39Esther Perel?

  But because she doesn't feel legitimate.

• 26:43Esther Perel?

  This is not a statement about you as much as a statement about her. And the hardest thing is to keep that in mind so that you don't feel so upset that you can't be there for her.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:59Esther Perel?

  And that's why you need support. This is super hard to do. It's easy to say for me, but it's really hard to do. And we need in those moments, help, support. But that's what will make it different. Not waiting and hoping that at some point it will get better. That, that is not exactly how it works.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we've been focusing on that chemistry, the, you know, the...

• 27:28Esther Perel?

  You've been focusing on the brain and I'm focusing on the life?

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I think it seems that, you know, her doctor is focusing just on the chemistry. It doesn't, there's no counselling, that's medicine. And she talks to somebody, you know, to help her work things through. And I've felt this over time, because we thought at first you go to a doctor, you get fixed. You know, your children are sick, you were sick, you know, you go to the doctor, they tell you to do this and this, and you eventually get better. This isn't a world I know, like, I know about.

• 28:06Esther Perel?

  I totally understand.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Totally not, and I feel inadequate about not knowing more about it. And so I think we were focusing on, on the illness. Um, you know, she got a diagnosis and you get a medicine and you talk to somebody and, and...

• 28:26Esther Perel?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  It's just not working.

• 28:30Esther Perel?

  For me, this is a family issue. A family is made up of interdependent parts. And some of the parts are the parents and the grandparents and the children. But they're all interconnected. And when one of the parts, when one of the members changes their role because they are sick, because they have a breakdown, because something is gnawing at them, because they're struggling, anything, the whole system adapts, has to change to make up for this, to respond to this.

• 29:10Esther Perel?

  But the isolation is also part of how the system is reorganizing. You know, for example, if she's depressed, I have no idea, but if she's depressed, one of the things that happens when we're depressed, and we don't feel like we can get ourselves out of our own hole, is that everybody around us tries to get us out of our hole. And they come up with one idea after another, "Why don't you do this? Why don't you do that?"

• 29:37Esther Perel?

  And the only power we have is to say no.

• 29:41Esther Perel?

  And so we defeat everybody. So this very interesting dynamic occurs in which I feel powerless because I'm down.

• 29:51Esther Perel?

  And I've checked out from all the things that used to be my life. But every time you'd say, "Do something",

• 29:59Esther Perel?

  I say, "No". And in the end, you feel as defeated as her. So now we create a loop of helplessness. Do you see this one? You're both shaking your hands. And you're rolling your heads, like, "I know this all too well".

• 30:15Esther Perel?

  Yes, is that it? You know, it's a bizarre thing.

• 30:22Esther Perel?

  The person who is the most down, in the end, has all the power. Because they have the power to disempower everybody else's fantastic ideas and make them feel as helpless as them. And so we all end up in the same spot.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:35Esther Perel?

  It just needs music. The choreography is set. That is one of the things that family therapy wants to help you with, or would help you with. How you step out of the, "Why don't you do this? Why don't you do that?" That pressure has to go. Not because it's not a great motivation, but because it's not happening this way.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:57Esther Perel?

  I understand that you're struggling, rather than here's what you can do to stop the struggle. Now, how do I join her differently? So, any situation where she can address you and speak, and there is actually another person, so that you don't have to be moderating each other like that, could be very helpful.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 31:24Esther Perel?

  And that you say to her, "Look, we have challenges. There's some things between all of us that this is a great opportunity." I think you have really highlighted that, you know, despite our best efforts and everything, there's certain things between us that that seem to have that are causing you great pain and that we need to address all together and we can handle it. And we're gonna go find a place where we can safely talk.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  As long as she doesn't exercise that ultimate power again and say, "No."

• 31:58Esther Perel?

  You'll still go alone, you'll get good coaching, and it may take three, four sessions of you going alone until you find the right way of bringing her. That's been done.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:10Esther Perel?

  That's been done.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:13Esther Perel?

  There's a good family therapist know to work with kids who don't wanna show up, teenagers or school abhorred children or, I mean, you know, to you, she feels like she's in, you know, this unmovable thing, but...

• 32:26Speaker 03

  She may. I don't know. I'm just...

• 32:28Esther Perel?

  But they will also give you the right frame of they'll analyze with you more, you know, they learn from you more about your daughter so that they have a good idea of how you can present it to her in a way that fits what is going on. To say to her, "You know, you've said some very important things here about mom, about us, and I think we need to listen to you. Because you've been trying to tell us quite a few things and I don't know that we've been as attentive as we could be. And so we have chosen a framework where somebody's gonna help us listen to you."

• 33:05Esther Perel?

  What I'm conveying to the parents is that without having ever met the daughter, I have a sense this daughter has been trying to say something to the parents. And I have a sense that she will welcome a different response from her parents towards her.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 33:25Esther Perel?

  You understand, and it's true. That's very different from we have found a person who's gonna help you get back on track.

• 33:37Esther Perel?

  Right now, the back on track is us not feeling that every slight decision is become an existential decision. If I say, "Come for breakfast," am I keeping her alive or am I killing her?

• 33:51Esther Perel?

  You know, do I continue to treat her like she still is the girl I knew? This is the family we are.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:58Esther Perel?

  Or is everything out of normality now? And I have to forgo everything I built and stood for.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  And that feels so wrong to me. But I don't, yeah, I don't know.

• 34:13Esther Perel?

  Has she been suicidal?

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. In the spring.

• 34:20Esther Perel?

  Attempt?

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  You called an ambulance and called me home from work. And so she was in the hospital for a few days.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  She said that she did that because of me.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  I think she was really mad at me.

• 34:45Esther Perel?

  That...

• 34:47Speaker 03

  I wasn't part of the conversation that morning. And I think that conversation really angered her.

• 34:56Speaker 03

  Or maybe not anger is not the right word, put pressure on her, did whatever.

• 35:02Esther Perel?

  That morning was just another morning of more of the same. Get a job, do something. You need a passion. What's the matter? Mom trying to prop daughter up with the best intention, but completely ineffective. And that morning, the daughter said, "Get off my back. I can't do it. I won't do it. I don't wanna do it. Enough is enough."

• 35:41Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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• 37:25Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know. I never would have thought she would have done that, tried to do that. We don't think it was plain... Not that it matters, I guess, but we didn't think it was something that she gave a whole lot of thought about, but did it in the moment.

• 37:42Speaker 03

  We haven't really processed any of that either.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:46Speaker 03

  We just haven't had time to.

• 37:49Esther Perel?

  Or with her?

• 37:50Speaker 03

  Either.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  At all. At all.

• 37:54Esther Perel?

  It feels overwhelming.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  I don't even want to think about it.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  I hope she never does that again.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  And I think what we've realized, not realized, but

• 38:09Speaker 02

  like, we can't control that. If somebody wants to do that, they're gonna find a way, because we're trying to like, keep everything, not have anything out. I mean, and then you realize you can't.

• 38:24Esther Perel?

  That's right.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  I mean, that's my head saying that, not my heart.

• 38:29Esther Perel?

  Your heart, you'd run and put yourself in front of the bus.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:33Esther Perel?

  But we own our lives.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Oh, God, I want her to be passionate about something so bad.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  She's so talented. She loves music, she plays instruments. She has taught herself languages. Um, she's artistic and paints and cooks. She's smart. And I just like, I would just want her to fall in love with one of them and do it. Love it, be passionate, and just see all the good in life. And we can't do that for her.

• 39:18Esther Perel?

  What's happening to you when she speaks like this?

• 39:25Speaker 03

  It's, it's just been tough.

• 39:28Esther Perel?

  Say more.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  I mean, we've

• 39:32Esther Perel?

  A man of few words, but say more.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  We've, we've done all this together, so I don't think, you know, it's not easier for one of us.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  I guess I don't know how we would do this without having somebody that we can go through this with.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't, I couldn't even imagine not doing this with somebody.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  I could imagine tearing people apart. Easy, very easy.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:05Esther Perel?

  Do you have close friends?

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 40:08Esther Perel?

  And they still, and you have not talked with them either?

• 40:10Speaker 02

  I've talked with two close friends.

• 40:14Esther Perel?

  You have got to.

• 40:17Esther Perel?

  This is like a medical recommendation.

• 40:23Speaker 03

  I'm gonna go home with a prescription for friends.

• 40:25Esther Perel?

  Yes. Friends or family, but you can't keep this.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:34Esther Perel?

  It's not an embarrassment, it's not a shame, it's not a... It's not gonna determine what's gonna happen to her. But it's going to deal with you not creating a parallel life in which you end up doing what she's doing. Without the diagnosis.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  I just don't have... I don't have that kind of a network. Not that I... I mean, I wouldn't mind. Maybe a prescription would help.

• 41:04Esther Perel?

  I'm assuming that your girlfriends are people that you also see with the partners.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  I don't wanna...

• 41:13Esther Perel?

  Burden them?

• 41:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. And part of it is, again, it's not particularly their business, but it's also... Why talk about it?

• 41:26Esther Perel?

  If somebody came to you and said, "We're struggling with the situation", would you feel burdened or would you feel honored that they trusted you?

• 41:37Speaker 03

  I get that. No, I would feel honored. I get that part. But I guess what I'm saying is I wouldn't wanna, you know, get together on a Saturday night to go out to dinner.

• 41:47Esther Perel?

  We're not talking about this becoming the subject of every gathering. I just want you to have the opportunity of people saying, "How are you? Do you need anything?"

• 42:00Esther Perel?

  You don't want to feel like you live with a secret. Life is not lived alone. And these kind of situations, you don't have to confront alone. You're not there to talk about her, you're just there to say, "I'm going through something really difficult."

• 42:19Speaker 02

  The way that we're approaching it in here with it being more holistic rather than focused on a particular illness.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  It really seems to make sense to look at it as a family dynamic, not as a person who has an illness and that that's the cause of things. You know, and because we don't have control over that, but we can work on the family dynamic. We do have control over that. And so to realize the parts that are within our grasp.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  That's that gives that

• 43:05Speaker 02

  has the ability to have an effect where we've been trying to have an effect in a way that we're not effective.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  The idea of it being a conversation where we talk about the experience that we're having with our family or friends.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  I think we've really gotten to a point, or I've gotten to a point where like I can't keep lying. I feel like I'm lying to everybody. Lying to family, I'm lying to friends. And I'm like, I just can't do this anymore. I'm not somebody who lies.

• 43:42Esther Perel?

  Right, but it's not just that. It's that you're pretending that life is normal as usual. And that's what she feels she did for all those years.

• 43:55Esther Perel?

  She feels that she's been lying.

• 44:00Esther Perel?

  That's what she's telling you.

• 44:04Esther Perel?

  And without knowing it, you're doing the same thing now. That's the parallel life as well.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Oh, that really sucks. I never thought of that.

• 44:16Esther Perel?

  I didn't until now either.

• 44:22Esther Perel?

  In the moment that the mother realizes the impact of her lying, she also instantly understands the lying that her daughter has been struggling with. And maybe for the first time, she actually understands her daughter in a way that she has not before, that the daughter has been trying to get her to. And we are connecting some very important dots.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  So she got to the point where she just couldn't do it anymore.

• 44:53Esther Perel?

  Yep.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  And I'm going, "I can't do this anymore."

• 44:55Esther Perel?

  That's right.

• 44:57Esther Perel?

  But I just heard it with you.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  And I could see how that makes it worse. Because you know, every time like something comes out of my mouth, I'm saying something else.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  And to myself.

• 45:15Esther Perel?

  And why? You deserve all the support you need.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:19Esther Perel?

  Both of you.

• 45:23Esther Perel?

  I mean, I was saying something-

• 45:24Speaker 02

  It sounds so obvious though, but I think I was just so in the... So in the thing.

• 45:28Esther Perel?

  If I am in the weeds, I'm as blind as you. Understand something? This is not because of who you are. This is because when we are drawn in a vortex,

• 45:38Esther Perel?

  our vision shrinks. It's easy for me to see, I'm not in it. But if I was in my own, you'd be the visionary.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Thank you for that.

• 45:47Esther Perel?

  I mean that. I completely mean that.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  I was, and you probably know, I was very skeptical of coming. I didn't really think anyone could help. I think you have.

• 46:05Esther Perel?

  First of all, I highly respect you being skeptical and coming. I always respect the skeptics more. The others, it's easy.

• 46:17Esther Perel?

  You know, you always want to ask the others if they would go to something that they are skeptical about.

• 46:23Esther Perel?

  And now tell me how it was helpful.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  Well, I think, you know, we've been so focused on

• 46:32Speaker 03

  what can we do to help her illness, that we didn't really see that how we're reacting to her and her illness

• 46:45Speaker 03

  is making it worse. It makes a lot of sense when you see it from the outside. You know, when you just step back for a minute and go, "Oh, you know, of course. You know, you should have seen it two years ago." But when you see it, it's clear.

• 47:04Esther Perel?

  And what is it you see?

• 47:06Speaker 03

  Well, I think we don't have control over her illness. We do have control over our actions and how we react to her illness. So the best way that we can help her is to, I don't mean to say be more normal, but we should be more normal and find ways for us all to communicate what's going on with her so that we can deal with it as opposed to just trying to deal with something we have no control of.

• 47:49Esther Perel?

  When mom speaks of the holistic view, the way I would define it is this. I am a family therapist. I think systemically. I think about problems in context, problems in an ecology, not just what causes them, but what maintains them. How is the relationship system? How is the family organized around the problem? And by having kept the focus so narrowly onto the daughter and on her mental health diagnosis, the entire family relationship system was left out of the equation. And yet, the resources that the family can bring to helping the daughter were all in that relational system.

• 48:31Esther Perel?

  And so I tried to tap into the natural healing resources that are available in the family, not just the medication.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.

• 49:32Speaker 01

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• 50:03Speaker 05

  Hey, listen! Power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2 and experience Link's legendary adventure, now reborn in vibrant detail on our fastest and most powerful system yet.

• 50:16Speaker 05

  And harness the power of the Ocarina with the built-in microphone.

• 50:25Speaker 05

  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. A Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated Everyone 10 and up.