When the Turn On Becomes a Turn Off

Sexual preferences demand a lot of trust, intimacy, and vulnerability in relationships. This week, Esther talks with a couple who are refreshingly open and honest about their fantasies. But after 15 years of marriage, his fetish is no longer her pleasure. Esther helps them uncover the underlying emotional needs driving their fantasies and encourages them to seek a broader and more emotionally connected sexual repertoire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

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• 1:29Speaker 07

  The biggest thing in our relationship has been my strong fascination with her having sex with other people. For me, it's been a constant struggle. I have this one side of me that's like, yes, I want her to have sex with another man. But then there's the same part of me that's like, wait, wait, wait, hold up. Like, you really want to drop a nuclear bomb in the middle of your relationship?

• 1:56Speaker 08

  At first, it was kind of exciting, fun. And then we started having kids, things get much more serious. Yet he still wanted to talk about this, and for me, it just seemed too risky.

• 2:12Speaker 07

  25 years I've been dealing with this. It's on my mind whenever I'm thinking sexual things. It's like...

• 2:21Speaker 09

  It always comes back to that every time.

• 2:24Speaker 08

  In my mind, while we're having sex, I'm not turned on by this. I'm not thinking about it. I'm in my old world. I want to explore something else. This is not fun for me anymore.

• 2:33Esther Perel?

  In the screening that we did with this couple that preceded the session, the theme for him was the tenacity of a sexual fetish that he struggles with. And for her, the increasing boredom with the centrality of this fetish in their sexual lives. But the session proved way more layered and complex than that.

• 3:04Esther Perel?

  So what's important for me to know about your world and who you are in that world?

• 3:11Speaker 09

  Well, I guess just to start, I feel like I'm really happy to have her in my life. She's really open and thoughtful and honest. And we talk very openly. And I don't think we've ever lied to each other, you know? Like, this is what I remember from the first date is that she was really true. You know, like, looking into her eyes, you could tell she was how she acted. And, I mean, other reasons. I mean, she's beautiful, she's smart and funny and fun.

• 3:46Esther Perel?

  And you? What about him? Why him?

• 3:51Speaker 11

  I just thought he was really interesting. So the second date is when I really started to like him. And the two main things that I remember about that second date was like him just looking me deep in the eye and saying, "You're beautiful." There was something about it that felt special. And then just his story that he was living in New York and he let a homeless guy spend the night in his house. It just like took him in, which, you know, looking back, like, if he said that now or if he ever did something like that now, I would be like, "What are you doing?" But like at the time, I was like, "Ooh, that's cool." So those are the two main things that I remember about that.

• 4:35Speaker 11

  But there must have been other things and just like our connection in general that I can't really describe in words.

• 4:43Speaker 11

  Yeah.

• 4:44Esther Perel?

  So, tell me, what do you want to talk about? And why now?

• 4:52Speaker 11

  Well, we have a very interesting sex life because of his fantasies. And it has been, in the last year, I guess, in the last six months or so, it's become more annoying for me. Well, I want to spell it out, just so. So he always brings up, either during sex, or before we have sex, or when he's talking about the next time we're having sex. He'll always just say he wants me to have sex with other men, or be excited about it, or... He wants me to be turned on by another man.

• 5:36Speaker 11

  And he wants me to, like, look forward to it.

• 5:41Esther Perel?

  You want her to get turned on by the thought of being with another man, or other men, plural? You want to watch her be sexual with other men? You want to join them in the sex? You want to be a voyeur that they know is there? You want to be a voyeur that is invisible, that they do not know is there? A fantasy is usually extremely specific and detailed. It's never vague.

• 6:07Speaker 09

  Yeah. So like, the normal rational me, who you're talking to now, you know, doesn't want that at all. Doesn't want my wife to be with another man, you know? But when I start getting into that fantasy, when I get excited about it, I would like her to go out on a date, and date some guy, and have a love affair, you know? And like, I don't know, I don't want to participate in it. I, I guess, ideally, I would like to see her, like, while she's having sex. I want to see her enjoy it, or just know she's, like, loving it. But I don't really want it to happen.

• 6:42Esther Perel?

  No, but that is the definition of fantasy.

• 6:44Speaker 09

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:45Esther Perel?

  Many fantasies, we would never want them to happen in reality. That's the whole point of it. Do you actually meet other men?

• 6:54Speaker 11

  Not for a long time. In the beginning, before we had kids, we played with the idea. So one time I visited a friend and then I was like grinding up on some guy at a dance club or something and then I was sending pictures to him of me dancing with the guy. And he was like, oh, I really, yeah, keep doing that. This is perfect, like, good girl. He might not have said good girl, but that was a really intense weekend for him because I sent that picture. And then maybe a couple of years later, I was sexting his friend. So we would talk about, you know, what we would do to each other and everything.

• 7:38Speaker 11

  And it was really sexy. I was really into it and he was really into it and the other guy was really into it. And I was getting excited, like, oh, this is really gonna happen. This will be fun. And then he all of a sudden was like, nope, you're not doing it. This is going too far.

• 7:59Speaker 09

  Well, I mean, yeah, I didn't say it like that, but yes, I put the brakes on. It was me and I put the brakes on, yeah.

• 8:05Speaker 11

  Yeah. So then I was upset then. I mean, I don't know if upset's the right word. I was mad, I was frustrated because I, he had me believing this was okay and I was allowing myself to be excited for it, but I didn't get to do it and I was upset. So then, I feel like after that, I was kind of less excited to do it because I was like, what was the point in getting all excited about it if I'm just not gonna be able to do it anyway? Maybe that's when things started getting a little bit less fun for me, when he brought it up. In a lot of the cases, I'm just so bored with it and everything and I just don't want to hear it anymore.

• 8:50Speaker 11

  But the other part is, I know, deep down, he doesn't want me to do this kind of stuff. And, deep down, it's hurting him. And it's not what he truly wants.

• 9:05Speaker 11

  I think, when it's all over, he feels bad.

• 9:09Speaker 11

  It might get him excited, and we might have a good sex over it or something. But then the next, maybe when he has an orgasm or whatever, he'll just start to feel low. He feels regretful.

• 9:22Speaker 09

  And this might be like a sex addiction-type thing, a little bit, because I, it's kind of obsessive, a little bit, with it. It's a strong feeling, a super-strong feeling, of like, really wanting it to happen. But then, you know, once I have an orgasm or whatever, like, right after, it's like, what am I doing? Like, what part of me is sabotaging this thing I value so much?

• 9:46Speaker 11

  And like, I'll try, during some of the sex times, to go along with it a little bit. Like, he'll say, "Do you want it? Do you want to have sex with another man?" I'll be like, "Yeah, yeah." Sometimes that's enough for him. But it's like, well, there was a time where I wasn't even saying it. Like, no, it's not a good thing to even say "yeah", because that's just gonna take you off to the races. And you need to be brought back to reality.

• 10:17Esther Perel?

  I think that what needs to be highlighted here is that the level of frankness, the sexual candor that exists between these two people is its own unique intimacy. There's nothing puritanical in the way they address each other about this. There's also nothing judgmental. They're getting a little annoyed, bored, but essentially, there is no, "What's wrong with you? You're sick, this is pathological." Yes, they highlight the essential quality of the addiction because of its compulsive, obsessive nature. But so is a fetish, in some way. The fetish often includes that element of obsessiveness.

• 11:01Speaker 11

  We tried a lot of different strategies.

• 11:05Esther Perel?

  You tried various strategies for what? What are you trying to do?

• 11:11Speaker 11

  To like get at this fantasy and to make him satisfied.

• 11:15Esther Perel?

  That's the goal?

• 11:17Speaker 11

  Well...

• 11:17Esther Perel?

  Is that why we're here?

• 11:19Speaker 11

  To make him satisfied? I mean, yeah, I feel like he's the driving force with the sexual desire. I mean, I have a sexual desire, but I kind of feel like masturbating is enough for me a lot of times. Like, I don't know, it's subtle when I actually wanna have sex. Like, it doesn't feel like I need it.

• 11:39Speaker 11

  Usually, it's just like, I could go for an orgasm right now and I'll just take care of myself. You know, so in our relationship, his sexual desire is basically what I'm

• 11:51Speaker 11

  working on for him. Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 11

  That's why we're here.

• 11:56Esther Perel?

  Really?

• 11:57Speaker 11

  I don't know, well, this is what we want to talk about, too. Is my best self, who I should be working toward, is my sexuality part of that? Maybe, but maybe not. Like, I kind of feel like in my top values in life, embracing my sexuality doesn't necessarily need to be part of my best self. But maybe it can be.

• 12:21Speaker 11

  Is having a good sex life really all that important?

• 12:28Speaker 11

  In life, in our relationship in general?

• 12:36Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 09

  Yeah, so I have, I have this thing where it's really strong. It's all channeled into this fantasy, pretty much, this really strong sex drive. Then it's almost like needing a drug and...

• 12:53Esther Perel?

  When did you discover it?

• 12:56Speaker 09

  This fantasy?

• 12:57Esther Perel?

  It's a fantasy, it's a fetish, it's a kink, you can call it anything you want. I'm not... And what is the word you use?

• 13:06Speaker 11

  We used to say addiction.

• 13:07Speaker 09

  Or fetish, yeah.

• 13:09Esther Perel?

  You're describing hot wife, cockold fantasy.

• 13:14Speaker 09

  Yeah, the cuckold thing, I mean, I hate, I hate that one, actually. Just because it seems so like, de-masculating, whatever, like, just like.

• 13:26Esther Perel?

  There are many terms out there, so you can pick the one.

• 13:28Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 13:29Esther Perel?

  Because what will matter is the meaning that you make of it.

• 13:32Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 13:33Esther Perel?

  And even this emasculating logic is only one of the many different ways that men experience it.

• 13:45Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 13:46Esther Perel?

  It's one of the most common fantasies of men, and it's even more common among gay men. So we're not in a very obscure territory.

• 13:58Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 13:59Esther Perel?

  But I'm curious, how did you discover it? Because we, we stumble upon our turn-ons.

• 14:06Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 14:06Esther Perel?

  It's not like we planned them.

• 14:09Speaker 09

  Well, yeah, so I, in high school, I never dated. I was overweight and girls were not interested, much to my sexual frustration, and then in college, I lost weight.

• 14:24Esther Perel?

  Did you feel like in high school you were often watching? How other people were having fun?

• 14:31Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 14:33Esther Perel?

  So you started watching early?

• 14:35Speaker 09

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it probably goes back to that. But then, yeah, my first relationship, it was, it's like she, she flirted a little with other guys and stuff. And one time, I just remember we were having sex and I, I was like, think about somebody, you know, think about another man. And she was shocked and was like, no! And so then I never brought it up again. But it was a surprise to me, bringing that up. So then, with my second serious relationship, it was just something that was throughout the thing. I would bring it up and... It was always a struggle. I hated that part of myself. I hated it. Because I didn't have control over it. I felt like I...

• 15:19Speaker 09

  Everything else in my... Inside of me, you know, I could pretty much control, even like my weight. I felt like I could control a lot of things, but that thing I could not control, and I hated it. It was really something that I really did not like and wanted out of me. I hated that part because I... It was basically sabotaging the things that I valued a lot, you know?

• 15:41Esther Perel?

  And the more you would try to get it out of your system, and the more it would actually manifest itself.

• 15:52Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 15:53Esther Perel?

  And that's where you began to think about it being addictive.

• 15:57Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 15:58Esther Perel?

  May I invite you to think about it in terms of it speaks, it says something.

• 16:06Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 16:07Esther Perel?

  It has a meaning. Sometimes, it's important to listen to what meaning it has. What is it doing not just to you, but also for you?

• 16:27Esther Perel?

  When you take a situation that you used to not control, like high school, like all those adolescent years, and now you own it, you initiate it, you introduce it, and you get to control the very thing that you once could not control.

• 16:55Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 16:55Esther Perel?

  That was the problem. And then you turned it into a solution. Because you can play her going to someone else, but ultimately she's with you.

• 17:08Speaker 09

  Yeah. I think it was painful that you can't control other person's sexuality. Like, they are gonna have sexual desires that are outside of you, with other people and stuff, and I think it's my mind's, unconsciously, it's turned it into control and it turns it into something pleasurable for some reason.

• 17:34Esther Perel?

  What I'm hearing you say, you tell me, is that there were many painful years of rejection and of basically being put in the position of watching.

• 17:47Esther Perel?

  Watching with the sense that maybe this will never be you. So you turn it around.

• 17:55Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:57Esther Perel?

  What happens in the erotic mind is that we often

• 18:03Esther Perel?

  create situations that tap into our deepest fears, wounds, but also dreams and aspirations.

• 18:16Esther Perel?

  Because the fantasy allows you to control it.

• 18:22Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 18:22Esther Perel?

  It takes that situation that used to be so painful and turns it into excitement and anticipation, which is ingenious.

• 18:40Esther Perel?

  Because it's experienced sometimes as repair rather than repetition. Why am I putting myself back in the same situation? Because I'm actually not in the same situation. It has all the elements of the same situations, but I've turned it around.

• 18:58Esther Perel?

  And now it becomes a source of pleasure.

• 19:02Esther Perel?

  My question is, do you have sex without it? Is this part of you, the silent or the non-so-silent third party in your sex life at all times so that there is a kind of a restriction that doesn't enable you to just broaden the repertoire together?

• 19:23Speaker 11

  It does feel like a restriction and it's always a barrier with us and it's always there. No matter what we're talking about sexually or like we both know that it's always there, so there's not really much going around it. I mean, if I was like, oh, this would really turn me on. I would like it if you did this or something. I don't know.

• 19:45Esther Perel?

  Do you ever ask for anything?

• 19:49Speaker 11

  I mean, I have a certain like porn scenarios in my head that turn me on.

• 19:54Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:55Speaker 11

  I'm kind of like in that world in my own head. I don't really want to talk about it. I just want to like believe that's what's going on. Like some porn-related thing that I saw. Like again, something I wouldn't want in real life. But like some man being really demeaning to me, that kind of thing. Or like several men being demeaning to me.

• 20:18Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:18Speaker 11

  So that's what's going on in my head. And I don't really want him to be a part of all that.

• 20:23Esther Perel?

  And what is the fantasy for you?

• 20:25Speaker 11

  Well, so it's not really like as specific as his. But like it's um, like I've watched porn before and like cream pie gangbang might be something I type in. Well, and just like these little comments that these men make while they're having sex like when one guy is like ordering the other guys around, I like that.

• 20:50Speaker 11

  And then the girls, who would be me, I guess, in my fantasy, just like taking it. You know, just like being talked down to and I'm just like a sex object. And they can care less about me, that kind of thing. That's what turns me on.

• 21:07Esther Perel?

  Right. And what is the turn on for you? What is it that turns you on in the demeaning, in the gangbang, in the rapey, in the being the object? And when I say what is it is because I tend to think that our sexual fantasies are a coded language for some of our deepest emotional needs.

• 21:29Esther Perel?

  What he experiences may be translated into a high sexual rush. But what it satisfies is a deep emotional need. I am attractive. I am wanted. I'm desirable. I get to tell this woman how far and how, and she comes back. And yours? What's the turn on?

• 21:56Esther Perel?

  What gets liberated? What gets opened up?

• 22:01Speaker 11

  Well, I think the man in my fantasy is just like doing exactly what he wants and he's feeling really good.

• 22:14Speaker 11

  It's like, I guess I, my body is giving him that need, feeling that need for him, and I guess I feel like doing my job or something. Does that make sense?

• 22:27Esther Perel?

  As in, can I understand what you're saying? Of course I do. But I want, see, I think that you've spent so much more time in his head and in his erotic mind than he has spent in yours.

• 22:40Speaker 11

  Yeah, definitely.

• 22:42Esther Perel?

  And there is a certain lack of curiosity on his part vis a vis you. And in effect, you have over time, developed a lack of curiosity vis a vis yourself too. You spend more time managing his wishes

• 22:57Esther Perel?

  than actually remaining an active participant, and so that will bring more resentment.

• 23:03Speaker 11

  Yeah, I mean, I guess, I mean, I want to say in his defense or whatever, but not.

• 23:09Esther Perel?

  Please go.

• 23:10Speaker 11

  But, I mean, I don't say that it's important to me and like, I don't feel like I need it. I think I satisfy myself enough with my own thoughts on it. And like while we're together too. I thought I was like, understanding myself enough, like, cause I understand the ideas that turn me on and everything and it, I mean, I'd say it's good enough.

• 23:34Esther Perel?

  I just want him to understand it more.

• 23:37Speaker 11

  Yeah.

• 23:38Esther Perel?

  I know you do.

• 23:40Speaker 11

  Yeah.

• 23:41Esther Perel?

  But I don't know if he.

• 23:42Speaker 11

  Okay, yeah.

• 23:43Esther Perel?

  And why am I asking this? Because it's an important dimension of your relationship. It's also one of the few places where you actually meet the two of you. And I understood that you said, I've got my thing, I'm upset, I have my toys, I have myself, I have my fantasies. I don't really need to engage. But in the same breath, you're telling me, I'm getting bored, I'm getting resentful. I start to feel like his fantasy controls our sexuality. And all I do is try to skirt around one way. And that in the long term is not particularly the best place to land.

• 24:27Esther Perel?

  While she's asking, "How important is sex in my life?" I begin to also notice that it is not maybe for her sexuality that needs to be questioned, but intimacy.

• 24:43Esther Perel?

  A fetish is in itself often rigid, and so it looks like all the rigidity lies with him. But there is a kind of a collusion between them around a structure of rigidity whereby she too is very focused on a particular line of excitement. But more importantly, what she says to him is, "I can only take you at a certain distance. I don't want to get too close to you. I like the distance that we have between us. That structure suits me." There's a tremendous amount of candor and intimacy and closeness in the way that they

• 25:26Esther Perel?

  can freely talk about both of their predilections. It's mature, there's no hang-up about it, it's astoundingly refreshing. Where they get more challenged is when they talk about levels of closeness and qualities of connection. And that's probably what has been hidden because there's been so much talk about sex and fetishes and desires. And in fact, there's a different conversation that needs to take place between them. And so this is where we're gonna go.

• 26:02Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

• 26:08Speaker 01

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• 26:13Speaker 12

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 26:15Speaker 13

  Stonefire Knan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 26:20Speaker 04

  I love making non-grilled cheese. Is that okay? I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 26:29Speaker 03

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• 26:33Speaker 01

  Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we gnaw.

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• 27:23Speaker 09

  I guess, I mean, we've talked about this a lot, and I think it's like, what is the ideal situation, you know, after you've been married for 15 years? What's the ideal sex life with two people? Is it you just think of your own things in your head, and you have sex, and, you know, it's good, it's fine? Is it you make love, where you're like, "I love you so much," so it's not so much sex, it's just like, "I just love you, and I'm expressing it this way?" Or is it where my fantasy was, where like, she was very excited about somebody else, I was very excited? Do you push that limit further, and is that worth it? The risk, is it worth the risk for the excitement? What's the ideal thing

• 28:06Speaker 09

  after being married for 15 years? What's ideal sex life? That's what we've been wondering about.

• 28:12Esther Perel?

  And you think I have the answer to this? Because there's one ideal, and it's a set answer, and it's a one-size-fits-all? No.

• 28:22Speaker 09

  But it seems to me, I mean, I could be wrong, but it seems like I look around at all the other, you know, couples in our neighborhood and stuff, and, or I know my friends, the friends I've talked with, and it's all mediocre at best kind of sex life, like, if they've been married this long. Honestly, I think our sex life right now is above average, and it gets frustrating sometimes. I know, I annoy her with that, and...

• 28:51Esther Perel?

  And you harbor shame?

• 28:54Speaker 09

  I do harbor shame when I feel like I've pushed it too far.

• 28:58Esther Perel?

  Right. So, those are the pieces?

• 29:01Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 29:04Esther Perel?

  And what makes you have more what you call a more than average sex life is not just the sex that you are having, but the amount of conversations and explorations that you are having about your sex life. Meaning, it's an important part of your life. It has a lot of value. And sexuality became the place where you experienced a lot of wounding and also where you experienced a lot of healing. To someone else, it could have been art or fishing or cooking or something.

• 29:42Esther Perel?

  And so then the question is, do you ever watch the porn with him? Do you ever bring him into your own erotic space?

• 29:51Speaker 11

  I mean, we have... It's usually if we bring porn in, I watch it and he doesn't. Like, he'll just like go down on me and say, "Well, I watch it."

• 30:00Esther Perel?

  You're the one watching him and he is acting on you. Okay. So the ideal is all of this. It's not a set pattern. In fact, it's the flexibility. It's the fact that it changes. There's a difference between what works, what's exciting, what's at the core of my erotic schema. And then there is, how do I feel about it? Do I accept it? Do I understand it? Do I make sense of it? Do I just integrate it into a part of me? A very special, unique, convoluted, irrational part of me.

• 30:42Esther Perel?

  Or is it conflictual? It's every time I think about it, I would like to eject it.

• 30:49Speaker 09

  I mean, the part of me that doesn't like it, that rejects it and feels shame, is the part that realizes that it's so strong and that it's willing to risk my family, everything, to get it.

• 31:02Esther Perel?

  Give me an example.

• 31:04Speaker 09

  Well, I mean,

• 31:07Speaker 09

  good examples with my friend. I orchestrated it and I really wanted it to happen. And it would have happened if I didn't put the brakes on. And if it would have happened, you know, who knows where that would have led to? She might have fallen in love or it might have led to her going out with other guys and falling in love eventually and get divorced or something. You know, I don't know, but that's an example.

• 31:32Esther Perel?

  And you stopped it?

• 31:33Speaker 09

  I did, I did. But I feel like it was close. It's barely... I mean, I would like to not take it as seriously. Think, oh, yeah, this is just my adolescence who's hurt and it's a playful thing. But it takes me over in the strong thing that's willing to risk everything.

• 31:56Esther Perel?

  Do you ever talk to it?

• 31:59Speaker 09

  I don't know if I talk to it.

• 32:03Esther Perel?

  What would you say?

• 32:04Speaker 09

  If I talk to it?

• 32:12Speaker 09

  Help me to help you. Like, let's, let's figure out a way that you don't have to be so overpowering in my life. I'd rather not my life be destroyed by you.

• 32:26Speaker 09

  Let's be friends. So we don't like, let's not be enemies so that you don't destroy my life.

• 32:35Esther Perel?

  Part of me is listening to his words and part of me is listening to his laughter. And especially when you have a laughter that expresses the discomfort, the anxiety, the shame. It's a nervous laughter of which I'm not even sure that he knows he's laughing. But what I know is that me and maybe you, while you listen to him, hear that there is a kind of a disconnect between the affect and the feelings that accompany the words and the laughter that is meant to bury these feelings.

• 33:19Esther Perel?

  You know, when I laugh like this, what I actually feel?

• 33:27Speaker 09

  Well, I think it's just dealing with my uncomfortableness and I guess the absurdity of it.

• 33:35Esther Perel?

  You know, when I laugh like this, it's more than discomfort. When I tap into my hatred of you, it taps into the contempt I have for me, that you exist inside of me.

• 33:52Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 09

  Yeah, but I've learned that the more I hate it, it just makes it stronger. The more I focus on it, the more strong it becomes. So I think I'm learning more to try to find a way to appreciate it more or like try to not hate it.

• 34:14Esther Perel?

  How's that going?

• 34:16Speaker 09

  I think it's going better.

• 34:21Speaker 09

  I don't know, I've tried everything else. So I think this is the only way through. I can't fight it. I don't think trying to understand it has helped because I've thought about it so long and so much and it just seems to give it more life or something. So I think I have to find a way to to appreciate it and love it in some way, like see what it means. Yeah, maybe it's a piece of my childhood like that needs love. Maybe it's helping me in some way.

• 34:56Esther Perel?

  Do you think

• 34:58Esther Perel?

  if you brought in some more curiosity toward her, that it would change the way you come to terms with your fetish? It won't go away, you're right. But it can change meaning. It can take less space. It can be less frightening or have less contempt

• 35:26Esther Perel?

  because you connect to her in multiple ways.

• 35:31Esther Perel?

  It's about adding other things. It's not about making this go down.

• 35:39Speaker 09

  I think that would be good. I think that would be helpful.

• 35:47Esther Perel?

  There are many paths to take here. I just went with one, which is that his decades-long focus and obsessiveness about this thing inside of him. I decided in this moment, instead of helping him to go more inside, to actually become more relational, to become more curious about her.

• 36:10Esther Perel?

  I was reminded of another man I once worked with who had erectile difficulties. And he would have rapid ejaculation. And he was so busy looking down at his penis and making sure that his cock worked and stayed strong and hard and was going to deliver, that in effect, he was really not attentive to his partner. He was constantly making sure that he would not fail, as he would call it, but he wasn't really present with her. And then I suggested in the session that he put his hands in her hair and just slowly, slowly, slowly caress her head. And I remember the motion of her lips opening up

• 36:53Esther Perel?

  and to tell him that what would actually make it enjoyable for her was not that he could stay harder longer, but that he could actually be present and attentive to her. And there's something about that here that I was summoning up for myself. Instead of making sure that this thing doesn't take you over, put some of that focus on her. If you become a little more curious about her, your mind will go and put itself on the connection between the two of you, and that in itself will ground you. I think that there's also a part of him that still does not see himself

• 37:35Esther Perel?

  as desirable, wanted, and attractive. There's a big part of him that continues to see himself as the chubby, rejected, excluded, invisible little boy. And that is the part that the fetish is holding a grip on, and that's where the laughter sits.

• 38:01Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 38:14Speaker 01

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• 38:19Speaker 02

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  Stonefire naan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  I love making naan grilled cheese. Is that guy okay?

• 38:29Speaker 03

  I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 38:34Speaker 03

  You can share Stonefire naan with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  Doesn't sound friendly.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we naan.

• 38:44Speaker 15

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• 39:00Speaker 14

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• 39:30Esther Perel?

  Do you experience her desire for you? Separately, in and of itself?

• 39:38Speaker 09

  Sexual desire?

• 39:39Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes.

• 39:42Speaker 09

  A little.

• 39:44Speaker 09

  But I do feel that, you know, when you've been with someone for 15 years, that, well, definitely the newness is not there. You know, the exciting newness. But I mean, I know when we're having sex. I can tell when she's into it.

• 40:03Speaker 09

  I mean, before, did I notice it more?

• 40:06Esther Perel?

  And did you even get a sense of it? Because you were so into the script.

• 40:13Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 40:15Esther Perel?

  There's a part of you that has not had the opportunity to actually...

• 40:20Speaker 09

  Yeah, I know. And that, I think, has led to some, like, pretty recently, within the...

• 40:25Esther Perel?

  Talk to her.

• 40:26Speaker 09

  Within the last year, we had that fight where she dressed very...

• 40:32Speaker 09

  She looked great. She was very sexy.

• 40:33Esther Perel?

  Talk to her, she's right here.

• 40:34Speaker 09

  Okay.

• 40:35Esther Perel?

  Why is this people talk to each other in the third person?

• 40:39Speaker 09

  When we went out on the date and you dressed very sexy and you looked great and yeah, I turned it into my thing. And that was frustrating for you, I know, because I...

• 40:50Esther Perel?

  Meaning, what happened?

• 40:51Speaker 09

  Well, I felt she looked very sexy and sexual and I was like, "You gotta wear this when you go out with another guy," or something like that. You know, I said something like that and I think it was really frustrating for her because...

• 41:04Esther Perel?

  Talk to her.

• 41:05Speaker 09

  Yeah, you even said, I think, "I wish I could just be attractive to you without you bringing that in." And yeah, why didn't I appreciate it just on my own?

• 41:19Esther Perel?

  My thought that the issue in part still resides in his not having internalized that he is an attractive, desirable man is expressed right when he says, "When you dress sexy like that, this is attractive to the other guys. It's gotta go through another guy who is the attractive, desirable, real man." When I am still that unwanted teenager. And that is the deflation that he experiences after he goes through the whole enactment. It's the deflation that confirms that he's actually still that undesirable boy.

• 42:08Esther Perel?

  Speak up.

• 42:11Speaker 11

  There was a lot like running through my mind this whole time, but I don't... What to... Well, when you're asking him, "Does he feel my desire for him?" I felt a little guilty. I know I don't compliment him that much. He's always complimenting me.

• 42:30Esther Perel?

  You are.

• 42:32Speaker 11

  You are always complimenting me and I feel bad that I.

• 42:35Esther Perel?

  The reason I'm asking you to talk in the second person singular is because there is something in the way that you each talk about each other in the third person that is similar to the way you would enjoy if each of you could be in your own fantasy life in your head while your bodies are together, but each one in their own space. There's something about the you that is direct, that you can avoid when you say he.

• 43:07Speaker 11

  Yes.

• 43:08Esther Perel?

  So just so you understand, I'm not just picky for grammar.

• 43:10Speaker 11

  Yeah, yeah, I get it. So yeah, I felt guilty

• 43:17Speaker 11

  when she was asking you about that. Because I know I was guilty of not giving you the compliments that you deserve. And also like not being touchy and initiating physical contact too. I'm not good at that, I'm sorry. If we're sitting next to each other watching TV or something, I may think it would be nice if I touched his leg right now. I don't do it because I feel uncomfortable. I don't initiate hugging you or kissing you and everything. I appreciate when you initiate hugging me and kissing me and I'm very happy somebody's doing it. You really help us to stay connected because you do that. It's just for me, it's hard. I don't know, it's just hard. It doesn't come natural.

• 44:02Esther Perel?

  You can't just say that.

• 44:05Speaker 11

  Why not?

• 44:07Esther Perel?

  Because it's a cop out. I'm not good at this.

• 44:12Esther Perel?

  After 15 years, it's a cop out. Because it's 15 years you're saying I'm not good at this. You know, he spends all his time trying to figure out what roils inside of him. And are you comfy touching, kissing, hugging your kids?

• 44:29Speaker 11

  Yes.

• 44:30Esther Perel?

  Or also reluctantly?

• 44:32Speaker 11

  I always was when they were baby. I feel like maybe I'm getting a little bit more uncomfortable. I enjoy hugging them and I enjoy kissing them and I initiate it, but I do also enjoy distance. He enjoys family couch time where all four of us are like sitting right next to each other and I'm just like, okay, I'm gonna go to the other couch. I enjoy having my space.

• 44:57Speaker 11

  I know I have a part to play in our in the barriers of our sex life because I'm I put up a little distance and I'm not as comfortable being physical with you. So it leaves a lot of space for your fetish to come out.

• 45:21Speaker 11

  And you do deserve to have me like being more touchy with you and hugging you and everything. I wish I could do that more.

• 45:32Speaker 11

  I think my ideal self would like it. I could see that being nice.

• 45:38Speaker 11

  Just like anytime you're uncomfort-

• 45:42Esther Perel?

  But you can be uncomfortable because it feels intrusive. You can be uncomfortable because it feels demanding. You can be uncomfortable because it feels extracting. You can be uncomfortable because it feels non-consensual. Uncomfortable is a code word for a bunch of other things.

• 46:06Esther Perel?

  So it's not enough to just say, "I'm not good at it." Because it lacks curiosity. And you're too smart for that.

• 46:18Esther Perel?

  Like, why not? My ideal self would love to feel more expressive physically and it would actually enrich the vocabulary between us. So that we don't get organized by this one aspect of his sexuality.

• 46:40Esther Perel?

  How do you expand a repertoire?

• 46:45Esther Perel?

  It's not even that you diminish the fetish, you don't. But you sometimes diminish its ambitions. You diminish the space it takes. And that happens because you enrich other parts.

• 46:59Esther Perel?

  Because both your scripts, your erotic scripts are high intensity, low emotion. Your porn script is a high intensity, low emotion. Actually, the whole turn on is because of the low emotion. You like the guys who are not thinking about you. You don't have to think about them. Everybody gets to do exactly what they want.

• 47:22Esther Perel?

  And that is very freeing. There's no caretaking.

• 47:26Esther Perel?

  And that works wonders for you.

• 47:29Esther Perel?

  So it works well because you actually are in a similar zone, high intensity, low emotion.

• 47:37Esther Perel?

  But what you're saying is after X amount of years, it starts to feel a little rote. So how do I introduce other intensity? And now the question is, do you just find other high intensity, low emotion? Or do you bring in a little bit more emotion?

• 47:56Speaker 11

  I get, I don't like the sound of bringing emotion.

• 47:59Esther Perel?

  Yeah, I got it.

• 48:02Speaker 09

  Well, I was thinking it might be nice to bring in some emotion, but yeah, I don't know.

• 48:08Esther Perel?

  How would you want it?

• 48:09Speaker 09

  How would I want it? Well, just uh...

• 48:15Speaker 09

  What I think I would like is us talking and then touching and then it leading to sex like that.

• 48:25Speaker 11

  Well, I would just be so surprised, even if I'm like, oh yeah, I'm touching you, you know, I'm comfortable with this. And I'm like, yeah, I'm so into you, you're so sexy and everything.

• 48:39Speaker 11

  Still feel like the fetish is gonna come and take over, no matter what.

• 48:48Speaker 09

  Yeah, I think we'd have to make a conscious effort to bring in other things.

• 48:52Speaker 11

  Well, and when the fetish creeps in, you would have to ignore it.

• 48:56Esther Perel?

  Well, yeah, you acknowledge it, but then you disinvite it.

• 49:02Esther Perel?

  Actually, you ask it to look at the two of you.

• 49:13Speaker 09

  Maybe, try.

• 49:15Esther Perel?

  I mean, you've tried a zillion different things, but it's like you're trying to push it down, push it down, and then it just springs back up.

• 49:22Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 49:22Esther Perel?

  So that rarely works.

• 49:25Speaker 09

  Hmm.

• 49:26Esther Perel?

  But you can subvert it. You can give it a different role. You can put it on mute for 10 minutes.

• 49:35Speaker 09

  Hmm.

• 49:37Esther Perel?

  I'll come back to you.

• 49:39Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 49:40Esther Perel?

  I wanna be with my wife tonight, a little bit more than with you. But there needs to be something then here of which the volume rises.

• 49:53Esther Perel?

  If this space is too quiet, then the voice of the fetish takes over.

• 49:59Speaker 11

  Yeah. But in that realm, I just don't understand how people could have an orgasm thinking of love for their husband and wife, like...

• 50:10Esther Perel?

  It's not the goal. You're not doing that.

• 50:13Speaker 11

  I mean, isn't that kind of what we're talking about?

• 50:15Esther Perel?

  No.

• 50:18Esther Perel?

  No.

• 50:18Speaker 11

  Well, I guess I'm just wondering, like, if we're talking about making emotion a part of our sex life, I picture like the goal, doesn't that mean...

• 50:29Esther Perel?

  Because when you talk about the sex life, you're talking about the act of sex.

• 50:34Speaker 11

  Yeah.

• 50:35Esther Perel?

  When I'm talking about your sex life, I'm talking about an energy.

• 50:39Speaker 11

  Oh, okay.

• 50:40Esther Perel?

  A presence.

• 50:41Speaker 11

  Yeah.

• 50:42Esther Perel?

  The air. I'm not talking about what you do.

• 50:48Esther Perel?

  Talking about a quality of aliveness, of vibrancy, vitality, imagination, playfulness, curiosity, that.

• 50:56Speaker 11

  That makes sense, yeah, okay.

• 50:58Esther Perel?

  Right? What's the erotic charge between these people? Do they even notice when somebody gets dressed up? Do they notice when they look good? Do they take a minute to look at each other? Do they remember that they are sexual beings? It's everything in between, which unfortunately, people don't call sex. But of course it is, because you can do sex and feel nothing. Doing it doesn't tell you much.

• 51:28Esther Perel?

  And part of what you both are looking at is the quality of the experience. So I often think, you know, sex isn't just something you do, it's a place you go. With him, with yourself, in your fantasy life, in your mind.

• 51:45Esther Perel?

  You go to a place that is free of charge, no emotional responsibility. That frees me up. That's the low emotion piece. It's not that you don't care about him or anything. It's just, you take for granted that he tells you nice things, or that he comes and he hugs you and you enjoy it. Because you know it's important and you know that he takes care of the quota.

• 52:12Esther Perel?

  And then you just kind of get away with it by saying, but I'm not into it, or it's not my thing. Rather than,

• 52:21Esther Perel?

  if I want him to talk to me slightly differently, I have to talk to him slightly differently too.

• 52:30Speaker 11

  Like if I want him, I mean, I don't think I need him to talk to me differently.

• 52:35Esther Perel?

  If he felt more seen, liked, desired, appreciated in that way, he would rely slightly less, perhaps, on this one script that he has elaborated over decades to fill all those needs for him.

• 53:01Esther Perel?

  What are you thinking?

• 53:04Speaker 09

  Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, I'm hopeful that we could explore the possibility of different ways. And I think that could help. And yeah, it doesn't have to be sex so much as touching. And we do a good job of talking openly and intimately. I think it'd be also good if we could connect physically at the same time or as an expression of that.

• 53:37Speaker 11

  I feel like we kind of tried this though, right?

• 53:44Speaker 11

  Remember that time where I was like, "I'm gonna hug you every morning when I wake up"? Remember that?

• 53:51Speaker 09

  Yeah, yeah, I remember.

• 53:54Speaker 11

  Well, and I was committed to-

• 53:54Esther Perel?

  And what happened?

• 53:56Speaker 11

  I was committed to doing it, but you didn't seem to enjoy it. Or like, it wasn't helpful.

• 54:04Speaker 09

  I mean, one option is, we schedule the sex instead of sex one time. We'd do that. At least that would be a way to experiment with it and see.

• 54:16Speaker 11

  Well, you're saying to like, massage each other or something?

• 54:19Speaker 09

  Well, no, just like, talk and look and be close in bed. Talking and looking at each other and just touching. You know, you're skeptical.

• 54:32Speaker 11

  Yeah, well, I don't think it would work.

• 54:36Speaker 11

  I guess I just don't know how that is a solution moving forward.

• 54:43Esther Perel?

  When you decide to do more exploration,

• 54:50Esther Perel?

  just to get less in a narrow groove, you can't constantly measure outcome on the spot. "I did this, didn't work." "I did this, it didn't change."

• 55:07Esther Perel?

  That is a terrible way to explore sexually, or emotionally, or in any form of exploration for that matter. The whole point of exploration is a different relationship with the unknown, in which you tried once like that, once like that. You talk about it, you check it out, or you don't. But you leave it open-ended. If you put yourself in a-

• 55:34Esther Perel?

  Testing mode, pass, fail.

• 55:38Esther Perel?

  You're gonna give up very quick. It's utterly not motivating.

• 55:44Esther Perel?

  But there's a part of you that says, if we want this to remain interesting, fun, rich, something we enjoy together, then yes, we need to innovate. But it doesn't mean this position, that position. It means to innovate the conversation between us, the connection between us, the time we spend alone that is not about sex. It's actually creating erotic spaces. And when I say erotic, I mean spaces for curiosity, for exploration, for aliveness. And that may mean that maybe the couch is not the place.

• 56:23Esther Perel?

  Maybe the street is the place, because on the street, you know for a fact that there are boundaries. Maybe the club is the place. It can be the comedy cellar, it can be experiences. When I say emotion, I'm not talking about just sitting and dabbling in the fragile zones of our feelings. I'm talking about other levels of interaction. I say comedy because I think laughing together is incredible. So, in my book, this is part of working on sex. I know it feels like, what does that have to do? But it does.

• 57:06Esther Perel?

  Because sex is about energy. It's about release. It's about pleasure. It's about spontaneity. All of that is part of the broader question of what do we do for the next 15 years?

• 57:26Esther Perel?

  In this episode, we worked with a man who is struggling with the tenacity of a sexual fetish that has dominated much of his sexual life and his internal emotional life, for that matter. I did another conversation recently with Gillian Anderson. You may remember her from the TV series Sex Education, where she played the lead character. My conversation with Gillian was about her book Want, where she invited hundreds of women to send her anonymously their sexual fantasies. If you want to listen to it, you can go straight to the podcast and go back to November. But more importantly, if you want to watch it,

• 58:10Esther Perel?

  go to my YouTube channel and you can see us in conversation of one of the most fascinating aspects of human sexuality: fantasies and the erotic mind.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Attenborough. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Stonefire Knon is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery, charred flatbread for any meal.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 59:16Speaker 03

  Stonefire Knon is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 59:20Speaker 04

  I love making non-grilled cheese. Is that guy OK?

• 59:24Speaker 03

  I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 59:30Speaker 03

  You can share Stonefire Knon with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.

• 59:34Speaker 04

  Doesn't sound friendly.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  From our tradition to yours, Stonefire. Together we gnaw.

• 59:40Speaker 14

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