#142 Dale Stark - A-10 Warthog: One of the Most Feared Aircraft in History

Dale Stark, a retired Lieutenant Colonel and accomplished A-10 Warthog pilot, served nearly 24 years in the Air Force, initially enlisting as an aircraft mechanic before commissioning as an officer. Known for his skill in close air support (CAS), Stark deployed to Afghanistan in 2006, 2010, and 2014, becoming a trusted squadron commander in 2018. His leadership style emphasized teamwork and discipline, values that guided his ascent through the ranks and earned him the respect of his airmen during critical missions in the Global War on Terror. Returning to, Oregon, Stark and his wife Amanda established a small-scale cattle ranch, inspired by his love for agriculture. They aim to produce and provide healthy, local beef for their community, combining sustainable practices with a commitment to wellness and quality food. Stark also hosts his own podcast "The Dale Stark Show," a show dedicated to telling the stories of those who served. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://moinkbox.com/srs https://bubsnaturals.com/shawn - USE CODE "SHAWN" https://betterhelp.com/srs https://trueclassic.com/srs https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Dale Stark Links: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/dalestarka10 Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DaleStarkA10 YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DaleStarkA10 X - https://x.com/DaleStarkA10 The Dale Stark Show - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dale-stark-show/id1767833354 Ranch - https://7barrelranch.com Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Mr. President? My company tore me of the explosion on our rig.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  On October 2nd.

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  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 0:38Speaker 02

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• 0:40Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 0:46Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stall, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 0:53Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 1:05Shawn Ryan?

  Dale Stark, welcome to the show, man.

• 1:08Speaker 06

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:09Shawn Ryan?

  It's a... Man, I've been watching your Twitter for, or I guess X now, for quite a while, and I love your page. Like, the wittiness in the comments and just what you post is awesome. And on top of that, it's an honor to have you here. I've been wanting a pilot for a long time, and as I've been watching you, I've just been like, man, I think I would really get along with that guy. So I'm just really stoked. You're my first Air Force airplane pilot that I've had in here, and I hope you're the first of many.

• 1:49Speaker 06

  Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

• 1:51Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. You're welcome. But everybody starts off with an intro, so I'm gonna give your intro here real quick.

• 2:03Shawn Ryan?

  Dale Stark, a retired United States Air Force A-10 pilot, prior enlisted C-17 Crew Chief. You have received four Air Medals, 13 Aerial Achievement Medals, and four Meritorious Service Medals. You made it to Lieutenant Colonel and Squadron Commander during your time in the military. You flew combat missions during multiple deployments to Afghanistan in 2006, 2010, 2014 with 3,000 total flight hours. After serving nearly 22 years with the military, you finished your service to the country instructing for the Air Force in Tucson, Arizona. Since retiring, you've become a rancher and devote your time and energy into supplying

• 2:47Shawn Ryan?

  the community with wholesome, locally sourced beef. You're a husband, a father of two beautiful girls, and a Christian. Am I missing anything?

• 2:58Speaker 06

  That's, that's pretty much it.

• 3:00Shawn Ryan?

  I got a feeling I'm missing a lot here, but we'll get into that stuff here in a little bit, but... Man, I love your, I love your farm. You call it a farm or a ranch?

• 3:14Speaker 06

  You know, it's kind of, uh, the way I've generally heard it is that if you're doing primary, um, like plants, it's farm. If you're raising livestock, it's a ranch. Uh, but it's not like some massive Yellowstone operation, you know, it's a, it's a single man deal, uh, 58 acres total. And then, like you said, primarily, uh, raising Angus, grass-fed, grass-finished beef, so...

• 3:41Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 3:42Speaker 06

  Uh, farm, ranch, whatever, you know, I kind of use both terms sometimes. Homestead, you know, what, whatever, uh, works for you.

• 3:48Shawn Ryan?

  So, did you grow up doing that, or is this like a steep learning curve for you?

• 3:52Speaker 06

  Um, I grew up around ranches a lot. My dad was like a horse trainer, um, a horseshoer, a saddle maker, so, you know, in the ranching industry. And then, um, I lived not too far from a dairy farm. One of my best friends was, you know, born and raised on this dairy farm, and I would help them, you know, bucking hay in the summer. So, I've been around it a lot as a kid.

• 4:19Shawn Ryan?

  Really? Well, we're, I want to get into your, uh, ranch operation, uh, more towards the end and, and kind of what led you into that, but, um... But first, let's get into the interview. So

• 4:35Shawn Ryan?

  before we get started, two in the weeds here. Everybody gets a gift.

• 4:40Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know if you're familiar with that. Oh, you have to open it right now.

• 4:43Speaker 06

  I came here for the gummy bears, right?

• 4:44Shawn Ryan?

  That's, hey.

• 4:47Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:48Shawn Ryan?

  There you go.

• 4:49Speaker 06

  The packaging's killer, too.

• 4:51Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you. So yeah, made here in the USA. Some people give me shit about that because I've turned into a little bit of a health nut, but you know, there are no healthy gummy bears. So, you know.

• 5:04Speaker 06

  Dude, sometimes you need gummy bears.

• 5:06Shawn Ryan?

  They're amazing. But, uh, and they're legal in all 50 states. Not that that matters in Oregon, but

• 5:15Shawn Ryan?

  but, uh, but hey, if you go anywhere else, those are legal. But, um, yeah, so let's dive into, we're gonna do a full life story here. So I want to go through your childhood. Uh, it sounds like you had a traumatic experience at some point there. And, uh, so I'd like to talk about that and then we'll move into your military career and, uh, maybe some about the country and what you're doing nowadays and, and we'll wrap it up there. But starting off, where'd you grow up?

• 5:49Speaker 06

  So, uh, I was born in a small town on the Oregon coast. So it's kind of a mainly a timber town and also lots of fishing. Um, those are kind of the main industries. But, uh, moved around a lot. So, uh, I think we, uh, lived in 18 houses by the time I was 18 years old. So, you know, lived in Idaho, Washington, Oregon, obviously. Uh, I lived in Southern California for a while. So, um, just kind of, you know, lots of moving around. So my dad, you know.

• 6:24Shawn Ryan?

  Why did you move so much? Do you know?

• 6:26Speaker 06

  You know, it was, the way I saw it at the time, maybe a little bit of a different era, but, um,

• 6:33Speaker 06

  You know, my dad would take a job where the job was and we would move. So whether it be seasonal work, um, you know, he did some logging. Like one of my first memories is, uh, we were basically camped out all summer just outside of a logging camp near Cascade, Idaho. So, uh, you know, living in a basically like an army tent, uh, fishing, hunting, trapping.

• 6:59Shawn Ryan?

  You guys were living in an army tent?

• 7:01Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 7:01Shawn Ryan?

  How many brothers and sisters did you have?

• 7:03Speaker 06

  Uh, one brother, older than me. So just, yeah, whole summer in the woods, cause he had a logging job out there. And then when that, you know, that job would come to an end or school would start, then he'd find another job. So, you know, it was just, there wasn't like all these programs and this and that. It was you, you went where you could get a job at that time and that's what we did. So, you know, and then there was other things for kind of like saving money. So it would be like, hey, you can live in this house for six months if you guys fix it up or something like that. So, uh, just, yeah, just lots, lots of moves. So.

• 7:41Shawn Ryan?

  Did you like living in that tent?

• 7:44Speaker 06

  I look back on it now as the best time of my life.

• 7:47Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 7:47Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, we're just outside in the woods in Idaho for an entire summer. Like just like, I didn't even understand until I was in the air force that people didn't just have access to like thousands of acres of forest out their backyard. It was just like our birthright, living in the West, you know?

• 8:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 06

  And then, uh, you know, later I'm in Texas, done with basic training and tech school. Want to go to the woods and you're like, there are no, there's no, it's all private land. You gotta know somebody to go hunt or whatever it may be. Um.

• 8:21Shawn Ryan?

  Is it like that everywhere out West?

• 8:25Speaker 06

  Uh, I mean, I can't speak to everywhere, but there's just, there's tons of, uh, like national forests, state forest and in even the, um, lands that the timber companies own will allow you access.

• 8:38Shawn Ryan?

  Man, me and my wife just went to Park City, Utah. We've been going out West for the past couple of years and minus California. I love, I love it out West. It seems like. I don't know, man. It just like, like you're saying, like you have to know if you wanna go hunt or you wanna be out in the woods, you either have to own the property or know somebody that owns some property and out there just, it seems like the conservation is a lot, like they really took it seriously out there, but on the east coast and kinda mid, uh, midwest, they, they didn't. And the outdoors just seem so much more accessible out there.

• 9:20Speaker 06

  It really is. And I don't really know all the, the history as to how that happened. It's, it's a big place, you know, and there's a lot of, um, a lot of terrain that's probably not necessarily uh, ideal for development. And so, um, yeah, it's just, like I was saying, it's just, it's picture of just having unlimited access to seem like infinity, you know, you could go anywhere, do anything, come home at dark kinda thing. So I, you know, looking back, I look at it as a, a privilege. I think it, it makes you resilient. Had, had a real close family. So, you know, I had my brother wherever we would go. So it was, it was fine, you know?

• 10:02Shawn Ryan?

  Was your mom in the picture?

• 10:04Speaker 06

  Yep, my mom, awesome. Just, it's funny, like, I can't imagine people doing what we did now. Hey babe, we're moving to the woods for the summer. Like, how's that gonna go over?

• 10:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 06

  Uh, but yeah, she's, it's just a good sport, you know, just like very faithful Christian, always knew that, uh, God would provide and he always did. So it was, it was just, I looked at it as a big adventure when I was a kid.

• 10:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. What, what kind of, I mean, what kind, what would you do out in the woods? What were you and your brother into?

• 10:38Speaker 06

  Uh, we just build survival forts. Like, my dad would let us go, like, sleep in these forts we had built overnight and stuff. So, uh, we're like, okay, we're gonna, you know, we loved Rambo, like, that whole kinda G.I. Joe, that whole genre.

• 10:54Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 06

  So, yeah, we'd just, we'd go build forts, go fishing, uh, make little snares for rabbits and stuff, like, just, just stuff kids do, you know?

• 11:04Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's cool. That's cool. I, I was talking to...

• 11:09Shawn Ryan?

  I think it was, I can't remember who it was the conversation was, but I've read, what I didn't read, we were having the conversation on the show and he was saying that kids that grow up in around, in and around nature have, I can't remember the percentage, but when it comes to like all these sicknesses and shit that are going around, ADHD, all these kind of autism, all these things, it sounds like the kids that grow up in nature that have experience out in the woods are a lot healthier when it comes to mental health versus kids in the city. Have you heard anything about that?

• 11:49Speaker 06

  I've, I've read things and it, it makes sense to me anyway. It seems like more in line with how we have lived through most of human history. So yeah, you take a, take a boy and make him sit in a classroom and watch screens all day or whatever it may be. It's, I think you're kind of asking for trouble.

• 12:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, so you went, you wound up in, was it California?

• 12:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, um, when, uh, I think it was sixth grade, um, my dad um, got a horseshoeing job. So that was kind of his main profession. So, um, he, you know, working on show horses, racehorses. He was really good at it. So, um, he got on at this place down in Southern California, which is where, uh, he grew up. And, um, we went out there for, I think it was four years. So kind of like basically sixth grade to the start of high school. Yeah. So, yeah, and that was interesting because we're mainly in like rural areas up to that point. And now we're living like near San Diego.

• 13:02Speaker 06

  How'd that go?

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 13:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was, I mean, it was a good experience in a lot of ways. Like, I became, um, so, something that I tend to do, and I started at a young age, is just get obsessed with one thing. And so, I fell in love with skateboarding at that timeframe. So, uh, I'd started that in Oregon a little bit, and then we moved to California, and it just took off. So, I'm like, you know, I heard like Tony Hawk. Oh, yeah, man. Like, all those guys, the Bones Brigade. So, I'm like, I'm watching those videos. I'm going to the skate parks every day, after school, all summer long, just, you know,

• 14:17Speaker 06

  sleeping with my skateboard in my bed. Just became completely obsessed with, with that sport at that time. And so, it, you know, it was cool. Like I said, growing up in these, these kind of rural communities, which, which I loved and what I prefer now, obviously. Uh, but then now, you know, sixth grade, then junior high, and living outside of, like, Hollywood, and skateboarding, and, and, you know, I tried to take it to a pretty high level for my, uh, age at that time. Like, um, I think, it's kind of funny looking back now, but I was like a, a state champion for sponsored 14 and under. Damn, no shit. Yeah, I was a California state champion. So, skating with all the biggest pros.

• 15:00Speaker 06

  Like, I went out to Tony Hawk's, like, Skate Ranch in Fallbrook, and... All these like older pros are kind of taking me under their wing and all these companies are just like throwing me all this free stuff like Billabong. I don't know if you've seen that. They're like a more of a surf company.

• 15:17Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, I know who that is. Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 06

  So we're, yeah, so I'm like, I'm this kid who grew up in the country and then now I'm skateboarding in San Diego and they're just like, come to our, our factory. They give me like big trash bags and just say, go fill them up with whatever you want, clothing wise.

• 15:33Shawn Ryan?

  Are you serious?

• 15:34Speaker 06

  Like, yeah, and I mean, this is like, this is not anything that I have ever experienced.

• 15:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 06

  And it's, for them, it's marketing. It's like, you get these kids that are good, you get pros, you get them to wear your stuff and, uh, and then it makes their, you know, I understand it now, but at the time, my mind was blown, you know?

• 15:55Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Shawn Ryan?

  You do not strike me as a skateboarder at all.

• 15:59Speaker 06

  I know.

• 16:00Shawn Ryan?

  That's crazy.

• 16:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was, it was fun, you know? I just feel like you can fly. It was the time of like vert skating and ramps and, uh, yeah, it was just, it was a blast.

• 16:11Shawn Ryan?

  Was your brother into that too at all or?

• 16:12Speaker 06

  He was into it a little bit and then he was into surfing and stuff, but, um, he didn't become nearly as like, uh, into it as I was.

• 16:22Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha. Gotcha. But you were into surfing too, correct?

• 16:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. Living there in Southern California, it's kind of go hand in hand. So a lot of days at the beach and at the skate park.

• 16:36Shawn Ryan?

  Did you get as good at surfing as you did at skateboarding?

• 16:39Speaker 06

  Um, I got pretty good, but I never, I, my main kind of love at that time was skateboarding and I never, uh, I, I always loved surfing. I got into it a lot more in my later teenage years, like when we moved back to Oregon. But, um, uh, I was better at skateboarding. I just put in way more hours at it.

• 17:02Shawn Ryan?

  So if I read correctly, you had a kind of a traumatic experience in your skateboarding career?

• 17:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, so it's like, it's kind of my first experience with what you kind of think of as like Hollywood.

• 17:18Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, boy.

• 17:19Speaker 06

  Like, just, yeah, so there are just so many, so many creeps around this kind of world, right? So I got, I got like picked up to do a Levi's commercial, so I did like-

• 17:34Shawn Ryan?

  Are you serious?

• 17:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:36Shawn Ryan?

  So you're a model too?

• 17:37Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah.

• 17:38Shawn Ryan?

  This is incredible.

• 17:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, all these new revelations, I never thought about it like that, but, so yeah, I'm like going out to LA doing, like, Levi's jeans commercials, you know, skateboarding, you know, I'm just skating and they're-

• 17:53Shawn Ryan?

  Wait, are, did these like, were these on TV?

• 17:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:56Shawn Ryan?

  We can look these commercials up?

• 17:57Speaker 06

  I bought my first Brownie 243 lever action rifle with residuals from a Levi's commercial.

• 18:06Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man, I'll bet there's not too many people in Hollywood buying those anymore.

• 18:10Speaker 06

  Probably not.

• 18:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:14Shawn Ryan?

  No shit, so we could actually, I'm gonna find this commercial and put it in here.

• 18:17Speaker 06

  Oh, that'd be hilarious. My mom has it, I don't know if, like, I mean, this is like, early 90s.

• 18:25Shawn Ryan?

  We'll find it.

• 18:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's out there.

• 18:27Shawn Ryan?

  We'll find it.

• 18:28Speaker 06

  It's gotta be somewhere, but, uh, yeah, um, so then the first kind of like weird, really weird thing that happened, uh, in this kind of Southern California Hollywood skateboard scene is, um, there's this pro named, uh, Mark Gader Rogalski, I don't know if that name rings a bell, so he's this, this huge pro skater, at the time, he was probably like, very equivalent to say like a Tony Hawk, Mike McGill, Bones Brigade guys, like, he was, uh, he was like a hero of mine, like, I'm watching him on videos, you know, he's, he was kind of the top of the food chain back then, so I'm, you know, I'm like 12,

• 19:11Speaker 06

  13, 14, spending all my time at these skate parks, I'm a young amateur, he's a pro, so they, you know, they'd take young guys under their, their wing, right, so. They're like, um, so I'm skating with all these, these guys and uh, one day, um, I get home, I think it was from school, my parents bring me in, they're like, uh, you need to know something, like, sit down, cause we know you really look up to this guy, but uh, he just turned himself in for murder. So, this guy today, like, twenty twenty-four is still serving out his sentence in California, for uh, murdering this woman.

• 19:56Speaker 06

  So, there's um, there've been like documentaries on this, so there's a lot of information out there on it because it was, it was a big deal, especially in that area at that time. But um, the short of it was that, he was like dating this girl and then, she kind of uh, blew him off or something and then he went out with her friend and for whatever reason, just like flipped out on her and like, the story is he murdered her with a bike lock and then stuffed her in a surfboard bag and drove her out to the desert and like buried her in a shallow grave out there. Holy shit.

• 20:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I'm like, you know, thirteen, fourteen, I, I forget the exact age, but I'm, I'm young and I'm trying to like, uh, process this information of what uh, like, this guy I looked up to is clearly psychotic. Uh, but yeah, so then it's, it was just, it's kind of the first glimpse into like,

• 21:04Speaker 06

  I don't know, I mean, that was pretty extreme, but just like the darkness of Yeah. some of that, uh, some of that world down there. Yeah. Started, started to feel that, started to get, get weird, you know what I mean? Oh yeah. Any sexual type trauma? Well, kind of like, um, similarly, like around that time, there was this, this, um,

• 21:29Speaker 06

  Really another weird situation. So this is kind of like, I'd say just a window into what that, not necessarily skateboarding, but just kind of that Hollywood, LA kind of world was like.

• 21:45Speaker 06

  And I like, I have a really hard time even talking about like what happened here, but I think a lot of, lot of guys and stuff have gone through this and they don't want to talk about it.

• 21:58Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Dale, uh, I'm not gonna pressure you to talk about it. And the reason I ask is

• 22:07Shawn Ryan?

  there's so many, there are so many kids that go through this shit, you know, and and I mean, it's coming out on, I mean, they're making movies about it now, you know, Sound of Freedom and, and and it started, I don't know if it's hitting mainstream media, but I mean, we got the Puff Daddy thing, you get the Epstein stuff, you've got and, and all it's, people are kind of waking up to this.

• 22:32Speaker 06

  This is a shocking amount of pedophiles out there.

• 22:36Shawn Ryan?

  It's insane. And, and, and, and even in my own personal experiences with interviewing people, unfortunately, I never had to go through anything like that, but I can't, I can't believe like, no, we do the childhood stuff, like I've always done like kind of the life story, you know, and then we hit this point where one, one person, I can't remember who the first one that brought it up was, it may have been Prime Hall. And then I started realizing like, holy shit, man, like 50% of my guest list has been sexually traumatized

• 23:18Shawn Ryan?

  in their childhood. And, and so the reason I bring it up is, yeah, because there's so many kids out there that are going through this kind of stuff and they don't, I think when somebody that I'm interviewing,

• 23:32Shawn Ryan?

  Talks about their experience and how they overcame it and, and if we do go into it, I'll ask you, you know, what advice do you have for kids that are doing, that are going through that kind of situation? They don't know where to turn. And so that's why I'm asking.

• 23:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think it's important and that's kind of why I brought it up in the, you know, previously is something I wanted to talk about for those kids who are, have gone through something like this, or even adults. But what happened in my case was, um, there was this judge. So he was kind of well-respected, like nobody, um, thought of him as a threat, anything like that. And there was one contest and he said, hey, I'll, I'll pick you up.

• 24:19Shawn Ryan?

  A skateboarding judge?

• 24:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, so he was just-

• 24:22Shawn Ryan?

  Not like a litigation?

• 24:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. I apologize. So he was a judge for these skateboarding competitions, for Califor- California Amateur Skateboard League. So he was an older gentleman and, um, not a gentleman, he was a piece of shit. But, uh, anyhow, so he had talked to my parents and there was, there are contests every weekend, you know, and usually my mom would take me and, or my dad or both of them. And, uh, for this particular contest, he's like, he called, he's like, oh yeah, if, um, you want me to take him, I can. And I'm gonna take these other kids as well. And then you guys can just come up the next day. Cause usually there's like a practice, say on like a Friday, competition on Saturday, and then you go

• 25:07Speaker 06

  home. So usually stay one night if it's not local. So this guy picks me up and, um, I'm again, a sa- similar age to the, with this other situation. So I forget exactly, but around 13, 14, something like that. So he picks me up and then- Tells me, oh, we're not picking up the other kids. Which is my first kind of red flag. I'm going, this is kind of weird. He's like, oh, yeah, their parents decided they're picking them up, so we're just gonna go. So. And you knew, you knew right then something was up? It kind of like, got my hackles up. I'm like, that's weird, you know? Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 06

  And I, like, thankfully, the way I was raised, I was, this could have been a lot worse, as you'll find, because I was pretty strong willed. Um, I wrestled when I was young. I felt uh, physically capable, even though I was, you know, thirteen. Uh, but, you know, I'm s- sitting here now by myself with this, uh, grown adult. Uh, and we're going to California, so, or going, I think somewhere up near LA from San Diego. So, we go to the hotel, or go get something to eat, go to the hotel, and then he just starts drinking. So he's drinking like hard alcohol. And, um, and he's trying to get me to drink. Like, hey, like, just take a shot. And he's trying, he's kind of like ridiculing me, like, um,

• 26:37Speaker 06

  like, oh, if you, like, what are you, uh, a wuss? Like, you could have, you could have a drink, it's no big deal. You know what I mean? So, and I'm, and I'm like, no, I'm, I'm just kind of like staying away from this guy. So, as the night progresses, he, um, puts on porn. So there's two beds in this, in this room. So, he's on the bed, he's drunk as can be, and he puts on a porno. And then, um, he literally just whips it out and starts like pleasuring himself. And, uh, I, basically at that time, and he's, and he's trying to tell me to come over, come over there. Holy shit.

• 27:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, so like, this literally unfolded in front of me at thirteen years old, and I'm going, like, what? You know, I had a good family, like, Yeah. They, they would have never, uh, expected anything like this. I don't think that everyone crossed their mind back then, you know? Um. In fact, I didn't even tell my parents or probably anyone until I was like forty years old, because I just put it, put it behind me, you know, because my dad probably would have killed this guy. And I'm not exaggerating, that's what he would have done. Uh, anyhow, so I, I ran into the bathroom, I slammed the door shut, I locked it, and he starts

• 28:02Speaker 06

  trying to, trying to get into the room, like, or get into the bathroom. So he's, oh, come out here and this. And so I just, I start screaming at him, like, get the hell away from me, get out of here. I'm screaming bloody murder, like, at this point. And so he, like, backs off because he's afraid probably someone's gonna hear me. Uh, and then I just, um, spent the, spent the night in the bathroom with the door locked. Wake up the next morning, um, go to the contest and, uh, see my parents and that was basically the end of it. So it wasn't, um, it wasn't like this, uh, it could have been a lot worse, is what I'm

• 28:46Speaker 06

  trying to say. Um, but it was, uh, just all these things in this time are kind of, kind of happening. And it's just, it started feeling like a really kind of a dark place, a dark environment. And, uh, I think my parents were sensing that as well and started thinking about getting back to Oregon at that time.

• 29:09Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit. I mean, how do you?

• 29:15Shawn Ryan?

  How do you keep that in for thirty?

• 29:19Speaker 06

  You know, what's weird about it is I remember at the time thinking, I don't wanna, like, I'm gonna get in trouble if I talk about this because of, um, like, the porn was on. You know what I mean? So I'm going like, ooh, like, I shouldn't watch, I like, it's embarrassing. And it's, you know, and you're thinking like, um, that you are at fault somehow. I remember thinking like, I'm gonna get in trouble if I, if I talk about this for, uh, whatever it is I was in, you know, whatever it is that I did to be a part of this. Um.

• 30:01Speaker 06

  You know, cause like I say, he put on a porn on that trip. He had like porno magazines out and stuff. So I think that these pedophiles do things to where a child feels guilty for being even a part of it. And then they use that against you. So it's like, oh, well, if you, if you say anything, you're gonna get in trouble. It's kind of the, the feeling I had.

• 30:29Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit. Did you have to, did you have any type of communication or relationship with that person afterwards?

• 30:39Speaker 06

  I mean, I would see him. And so the people I did tell was other kids, like the other skaters and stuff. And I basically just said, hey, stay away from that guy, cause he's a creep. Likes, and they're like, yeah, like we've had similar experiences. So, but nobody told their parents, you know, everybody would just felt like, uh, I don't know, just didn't wanna, it's like the child's mind doesn't wanna create all that. You're kind of like, I don't wanna have all these problems. We got enough problems, you know?

• 31:11Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 06

  So, yeah, so that it was like, again, it could have been a lot worse, but it is, it's something that makes an impact on a, a young person's mind at that age.

• 31:22Shawn Ryan?

  What, what kept it in until you're forty?

• 31:25Speaker 06

  I just, I just buried it, you know what I mean? Like, I was just kind of like, that was weird. I felt like, um, since I avoided this guy actually like putting his hands on me, I felt like nothing happened, you know?

• 31:39Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:40Speaker 06

  Um, but then, you know, as you get older, you're like, no, that did have an impact. And how, you know, your ability to trust people, the way, you know, it kind of, I'd say it kind of wises you up to the ways of the world at a young age. And so after that point, I acted very differently towards people than I did before, I would say.

• 32:03Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 32:03Speaker 06

  So just like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go there, not, you know? Nothing happened to me. I'm just gonna bury that and move on.

• 32:12Shawn Ryan?

  Let me rephrase that question. What, what brought it out at age forty?

• 32:17Speaker 06

  I think, well, we can get into it, but I just think.

• 32:23Speaker 06

  When you start kind of ref- you know, you get a little bit older and you start reflecting on your life. The things you've done, the things that have happened to you. And then you just, you just wanna tell the truth. You don't wanna have any secrets, you know? And so you're just like, wow, that's, you have kids too? And you're just like, that's crazy that happened to me. Like, like what a, what a piece of shit, you know? I can't believe that there are people like that in this world that would prey on kids. And, uh, and then you have your own kids and you're going, okay, like, I'm not trusting anybody. Like, if there's an overnight trip, I'm going. Like, uh, I trust my family.

• 33:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 06

  And that's the extent of it when it comes to, um, overnight trips with my, my kids. So that was-

• 33:14Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think this shit all stemmed from that area?

• 33:19Speaker 06

  I, I don't know, man. That's a dark place.

• 33:22Shawn Ryan?

  Man, I, I'm not gonna say I have a similar experience, but I guess it's along the same lines. I was a lot older. But I remember, uh, it was when I was in BUDs actually. But I mean, when I was in BUDs, I was like eighteen. And, uh, there was a group of us that went golfing at, uh,

• 33:43Shawn Ryan?

  Admiral, I feel like it was Admiral Baker Golf Course or something up by San Diego. Are you familiar with it?

• 33:49Speaker 06

  Um, not particularly, no.

• 33:51Shawn Ryan?

  Well, anyways, we had golfed and we got, there was like three or four of us.

• 33:56Shawn Ryan?

  We got paired with this older guy who claimed he was an admiral. And we told him we were BUDs students and all the people that I ran with were the same age. We were into drinking back then. And, uh, and, um, so we were drinking on the course, shooting golf with this guy. Seemed pretty cool. Invited us back to his penthouse somewhere, and I think it was like La Jolla or something. And went in there and he kept, kind of the same deal. He kept shoving booze on us. And, um,

• 34:36Shawn Ryan?

  Somebody found, one of, uh, one of the, my buddies had found this photo album. And he pulled out the photo album and every, every picture in the album was like older teenagers, men that were passed out drunk, naked in his apartment. And so we've, I mean, I wouldn't really say it traumatized me by any means.

• 35:06Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 35:07Shawn Ryan?

  It was like, uh, let's get the fuck out of here right now.

• 35:10Speaker 06

  Just a glimpse into what some of these people are like.

• 35:14Shawn Ryan?

  It was like, oh shit, I hope it, nobody got drugged, but, um, but anyways, I mean, you know, what, what advice do you have for having been through something like that? What advice do you have for kids?

• 35:27Speaker 06

  I would say, no matter what happened, like even if you feel like you escaped the danger, you know, or something even worse happened, just talk to somebody about it. Um, just get it off your chest, don't hold it in. There's no reason to, you'll just get support and hopefully prevent this from happening to someone else.

• 35:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. I'm curious too, I mean, is this keeps, it just continues. The problem seems to continue to get worse. I mean, you hear about the, the MAPS, right? Now we're, we're calling pedophiles, well, I'm not, but some people are for this type of sexual orientation, they call it, right? And they're calling them MAPS, minor attracted persons. They're normalizing pedophilia and, you know, guess where it's coming from? Oh, big surprise, the West Coast.

• 36:26Shawn Ryan?

  But, uh, I mean, I think about this as a father of, you know, I've got a two and a half year old and a seven month old and the problem is not getting better, it's getting worse. And your daughter's a little bit older, but I mean, what, how do you? What do you tell them and what do you teach them? Do you, do you talk about this kind of stuff?

• 36:50Speaker 06

  We haven't had to have any of these straightforward talks yet. But, um, you know, I don't want them, I want them to have an innocent childhood.

• 36:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 06

  So, um, right now, I feel like I'm the protector, as is their mother, you know, so, um, avoiding sleepovers, I don't think they're necessarily, uh, probably fine, but you look at where these kind of things happen to people. And, and a lot of times it's people they least suspect, but there are stuff like sleepovers. So I'm just avoiding those types of things.

• 37:25Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 06

  And, um, yeah, I, I think you're right, there, there, there's no end to the revolution, right? Like, they always have to have some boundary to push, it seems, there's no limiting principle. So they're making basically any form of sick perversion to be, uh, normalized. It's just, hey, that's, that's, they were born that way, so who are you to say? But, uh, I reject that and I think, um, that's where a lot of people would draw the line. And I, I really hope so because, uh, that could never, you know, it's children. If you can't protect children, uh, if your society doesn't protect children, what, what's the point of, what's the point of it, right?

• 38:09Shawn Ryan?

  It's crazy, it seems like there's like this big movement behind it to, to like celebrate pedophilia. And it's like, where does this shit end? I just.

• 38:21Speaker 06

  I ask myself that all the time.

• 38:23Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I bring it up to my, I bring it up to my two and a half year old. You know, I don't, we don't have talks about it, but I.

• 38:29Speaker 06

  There's creeps out there.

• 38:30Shawn Ryan?

  This is your private parts, buddy.

• 38:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:32Shawn Ryan?

  You know what I mean? Nobody touches your private parts, mom and dad, and that's it. And now, I mean, we're potty training him and, and, and, uh, you know, so we still got diapers and shit, but we'll take his diaper off and he'll go, he will literally go, my weenie and my butt, my private parts, mom and dad only. Anybody is, anybody don't touch it. And it's, it's cool, man, cause at two and a half, it's, it's registering, you know what I mean? And I know. He's gonna say something if something happens, you know, already at this age, like,

• 39:13Shawn Ryan?

  he knows every single time, man, that we we change his diaper, you know, or put him in the bath, I mean, he's saying, these are my private parts, no touching, and uh, more parents need to be doing that, you know, to to plant that seed in there, I think, in my opinion.

• 39:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, just just understanding that it's a real threat and it's from the places that you wouldn't expect and the people you wouldn't expect, so, yeah, just that open communication with your kids, keeping that bond, so, uh, if they do get a bad vibe about somebody, they feel comfortable telling you about it.

• 39:52Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, what, I mean, what was your, what was your parents' reaction when you, when that got brought up?

• 40:00Speaker 06

  They were shocked, like, they were just like, you should have told us, like, they just, they were in disbelief almost, but not really when they start thinking about it, you know, maybe there were signs, um, but in real time, it never crossed their minds.

• 40:17Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 40:18Speaker 06

  It's dark.

• 40:21Shawn Ryan?

  It is, isn't it?

• 40:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, no one wants to talk about it, because it's so dark, and it's, if it especially seems like the worst, uh, somebody got it, and they become even obviously more traumatized and more, less likely to want to talk about it, and just bottle that up.

• 40:39Shawn Ryan?

  Man, it's, uh, it's not getting any better, but, um, but let's move on, let's, let's, let's move out of this subject, so, so, did you leave California?

• 40:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, so freshman year, um, like I said, I think my, with that, that situation, with that pro skateboarder gator, they didn't know about this, uh, judge, but they knew, I think they could just sense, you know, and I was running with some rough kids at this time, like, in that era, it was, we're basically like feral kids, you know, just on, in the streets of San Diego on our skateboards and surfing and, uh, you know, a lot of those guys went on to be professionals and then burn out and ended up, you know, sadly, some were dead or in jail or whatever, you know, it's a, it's a. It's a rough scene.

• 41:32Shawn Ryan?

  Were you getting into trouble?

• 41:34Speaker 06

  I was getting, so my older brother was getting into more trouble. So I think that's where my parents' attention was. And so I could fly under the radar and just, we did whatever we wanted, you know?

• 41:50Shawn Ryan?

  Well, what kind of trouble were you getting into, drinking or?

• 41:53Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, I think that was the first time probably that, you know, drinking, just. There were, man, there were so many just crazy scenarios, like, there's basically like surf gangs in Southern California. Like, people are very localized.

• 42:09Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 42:10Speaker 06

  And there's surf spots. So if somebody comes there that's, um, not from there and they have bad etiquette. This is again, back in the nineties, I don't know what it's like now. But there'd be, there'd be fistfights, you know, a lot of them. And, and, uh, just, it's just a wild time, you know?

• 42:27Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:27Speaker 06

  It's like, you're not this innocent kid anymore. You're, everybody drinks, everybody smokes weed, everybody's trying to do something in Hollywood, like, you know? It, it's just, I think, my parents just generally had a sense that this is not a good, healthy environment for kids.

• 42:45Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 06

  So they're like, let's get back to our, our small town in Oregon and, you know, finish out high school out there.

• 42:53Shawn Ryan?

  Makes sense. So you moved back to Oregon. What got you interested in the military?

• 43:01Speaker 06

  So, um, I had an uncle, uh, his name is Arthur Stark. And, uh, he served two tours in Vietnam. He was a crew chief on Hueys. Um, he tried to volunteer for a third, but apparently his command told him he was crazy. And he needed to, he needed to stay home. Uh, and then, uh, anyhow, so he ended up becoming a warrant officer. And then a, uh, Chinook pilot in the Army Reserves. Continued serving his entire life. Uh, he did eighteen months in Iraq at fifty-eight years old. One of the most experienced helicopter pilots in the Army.

• 43:41Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 43:42Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 43:42Shawn Ryan?

  When was he in Iraq?

• 43:43Speaker 06

  Uh, the early, like, the very initial invasion.

• 43:47Shawn Ryan?

  This war?

• 43:48Speaker 06

  Yeah. Oh, three, yep.

• 43:50Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 43:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 43:52Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 43:53Speaker 06

  Fifty eight years old.

• 43:54Shawn Ryan?

  What a badass.

• 43:54Speaker 06

  He was a Vietnam, two tour Vietnam vet, so he was just a hero to our family, a personal hero of mine. And so, you know, and then like I had mentioned, I was kind of one of those dorky kids that wore camouflage from like, basically the time I could remember up until about, until we moved to California. So I'd just always been interested in the military. But it wasn't something that was in my focus, you know, so go back to Oregon. I start wrestling, so now I'm doing the sport of wrestling and I'm surfing a bunch in Oregon there.

• 44:37Speaker 06

  And I'm not a great student, so I've always hated sitting down, paying attention, listening to a teacher. Just really never worked for me, so they're like, oh, he's got, you know, probably has ADHD. He's, he's got all these issues. He doesn't, doesn't, will not pay attention, you know? Terrible student, so I, I barely graduated high school.

• 45:04Speaker 06

  And, but I, I had some good friends now that I came back and had some good influences. They were going to school and so I was like, man, I want to go to school. I don't want to. I was like terrified of being a loser, so I was just going like, you know, you start feeling that pressure build as you're getting older, you're getting closer to graduating high school and you're going, what, what am I going to do with my life? And I'm working like lots of menial jobs, like, you know, landscaping, worked at a movie theater, just like, worked at a gas station, just doing these normal jobs and going like, man, like.

• 45:44Speaker 06

  On my current trajectory, I like, I've got nothing going for me. Like, this is not gonna end, like, you know, I'm just, I start having like anxiety attacks even, like, in my later teenage years. Wow. I'm just sitting there going like, feeling like I'm gonna have a heart attack, sitting there at like, you know, midnight at home for no apparent reason. Just start, just start feeling that pressure, um, wondering what I'm gonna do with my life, but. Uh, anyhow, so I finish up high school and, um, I was getting pretty good at wrestling. So I, I picked up a, uh, just like a tuition scholarship at the local community college. They're starting a wrestling program.

• 46:25Speaker 06

  So I just, I was gonna wrestle at, uh, this place called SWOC, so Southwestern Oregon Community College. So that's what I did, but, um, my parents are more of like the old school type where after high school, it's time to get a job. So, uh, if you wanna stay at home, well, you're an adult now, so you need to start paying rent. So this became like a point of contention between us, right? So I'm, I'm going to community college, um, uh, I'm wrestling, I'm surfing all the time. Any money I get, like, in the summer, I'm buying like one-way ticket to Mexico City,

• 47:04Speaker 06

  going on these surf trips to like, you know, Puerto Escondido and Pascualis and these, it's just like, I'm just doing my thing, thinking I can figure this out. And my parents are going, you're just wasting your time, you know, what are, what are you even doing? Anyhow, so we, we go through that for dang near about at least a solid year. And my grades are terrible, I'm drinking, I'm not wrestling that great, cuz I'm just, my life is just kind of in shambles, you know, just, it's like a high school kid that is like stuck in neutral, you know what I mean? Like, so, um, anyway, so I keep trying to make this happen and it's just not working.

• 47:48Speaker 06

  And we're button heads and eventually it's like, you know, the movies, like they talk about, they're like, you gotta pay rent, you're behind, now you're three months behind. Now I get home and all my stuff's on the porch and I figure it out, you know? Damn.

• 48:07Speaker 06

  They're like, you know.

• 48:08Shawn Ryan?

  That is old school.

• 48:10Speaker 06

  They're like, we're not gonna enable you, you know? And a lot of, a lot of people criticize that technique now. They're just like, man, you gotta, you know, and I'm not, I'm not kicking my girls out.

• 48:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Speaker 06

  They're, they're girls, but uh, you know, my parents knew me well and they probably knew that I needed uh, some motivation. And so um, from that point forward, um, I'm trying to do the same things now. So I'm trying to go to school, trying to wrestle and I'm living in the back of my Volvo station wagon at the beach and you know, couch surfing at friends' houses, like surfing uh, and then using the, the showers at the beach, the beach campground, stuff like that. And just like, not doing good at anything. So getting terrible grades, not wrestling great and uh, really not moving

• 49:02Speaker 06

  forward. So I had thought about joining the military like right out of high school. Like it had crossed my mind. I talked to the recruiters a little bit, um, but I decided against it. So then now, a year and a half later, I'm, I'm basically at like rock bottom, you know, you, you can't get uh, much lower than living in your car, you know? I guess you could. I never became a drug addict, so.

• 49:29Speaker 06

  How's that going for me? But you know, and then so um, I almost joined the Marines. Like I, that was kind of my first idea. I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, these guys are badass, right? Like, look at the uniforms, how sharp they are. I, you know, I was just like, okay, that could be awesome. And uh, I remember talking to my uh, uncle, the, the helicopter pilot and um, and he recommended I join the air force. And he's like, well, um, you can get a technical skill. He's like, right now you're living in your car. Like, are you enjoying that?

• 50:10Speaker 06

  Wouldn't it be nice to like get the GI Bill, have a technical skill? I had talked to him about becoming a pilot, but there had been nothing in my life that would suggest that I had the capability to be a pilot. So, I remember him saying though, he's like, "If you decide you want to be a pilot, like we've talked about, the Air Force is all about airplanes." And he's like, "Yeah, the Marines, they have some airplanes, but they're all about infantry." You know, the Army, they have helicopters, but that's not the main show. You know, same with the Navy. So he's like, "If you want to have a skill that can lead to a career afterwards, if

• 50:52Speaker 06

  you want to even think about being a pilot, your best chances are going to be in the Air Force." So, at the end of the day, talking to all the recruiters, I decided to enlist as a C-17 Crew Chief. And so, like, I think I just turned, it was like December of 99, so it's like 1920, and then off I went to Lackland Air Force Base for basic training.

• 51:17Shawn Ryan?

  How long did it take you to fold once you were living in your car? When your parents said, "Get out."

• 51:25Speaker 06

  I think it was around six months.

• 51:27Shawn Ryan?

  You lasted six months?

• 51:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:29Shawn Ryan?

  Nice, nice. That's longer than I would have expected, but right on, right on. So you enlisted?

• 51:39Speaker 06

  Yep, so I enlisted in the Air Force and went off to basic training to be a Crew Chief at that time.

• 51:45Shawn Ryan?

  Well, before we get into your military career, let's take a quick break.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise is.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 52:44Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you're freezing there, that's what.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 52:52Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Digger, see the trailer online, only appears October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a minute without parent.

• 53:02Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Dale, we're getting into your military career now, so you joined the Air Force to be a crew chief, or not, I'm sorry, not a crew chief, crew chief, correct?

• 53:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 53:13Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. Let's talk about day one in the military. You just came from, it sounds like, kind of a childhood life of debauchery. And now it's time for some serious discipline. So how did that, how'd that work?

• 53:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was a pretty natural fit. So, um, my dad was pretty disciplined, you know, with us growing up. He had went to military school as a kid. And, uh, you know, and then I'm just straight out of two years of, um, college level wrestling. So I'm as fit as you can be. I mean, we had wrestlers trained really hard. You know, we had 10K Tuesday where they literally get us in the team bus, drop us 10K away from practice, and we would run to practice every Tuesday. So, you know, and then you're in Air Force basic training. So it's not gonna be that tough for you in that situation.

• 54:13Speaker 06

  So it just like was immediately felt like, almost like a relief. It was like, oh, I can, I can be good at this. Like, I don't have to worry about money. I don't have to worry about, uh, where I'm gonna eat next. You know, I don't have to worry about anything except for whatever the task is right in front of me. So, basic training was kind of a breeze. I was an honor graduate out of BMT. And uh, and then just right on to tech school from there, so.

• 54:43Shawn Ryan?

  Just rewind in real quick, something, were you, did you have a relationship with your parents when you joined? Or were you guys not speaking?

• 54:53Speaker 06

  We were speaking, uh, yeah, we were speaking, but there was a lot of bitterness.

• 55:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 55:02Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think they were proud of you for making the decision to go into the military or?

• 55:07Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, they could have been more proud. I mean, they were, they were ecstatic. They were, you know, they went to my, um, basic training graduation and they, they couldn't have been happier. They, you know, looking back, you know, the tough love thing, they just, they wanted the best for me. And they had seen so many people just kind of get stuck in that phase of life.

• 55:32Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 55:32Speaker 06

  Where, hey, you're done with school and you're not really progressing towards the next thing, at least, you know. I was kind of going through the motions, but I really wasn't. I was getting terrible grades in community college.

• 55:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 55:50Speaker 06

  Like, this is, these are not the brightest bulbs out of high school and I'm getting like D's and C's and F's. So it's not like I was, uh, showering myself in glory.

• 56:01Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:01Speaker 06

  If I had been doing great, I'm sure it would have been an entirely different story, but you know, I'm getting terrible grades, getting home at 2am every night. Uh, so, yeah, they did the tough love thing and, uh, when I got on the path, they couldn't have been happier.

• 56:16Shawn Ryan?

  Good.

• 56:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I just kind of cruised through basic training and then, uh, off to, uh, C17, uh, tech school. Where you learn how to be a mechanic. And I was in, uh, Shepherd Air Force Base in, uh, Wichita Falls, Texas.

• 56:31Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 56:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, and, um, that went pretty smooth and, uh, that was actually the first kind of real introduction I had to the A-10. And so, uh, the nice thing about the military, which, um, almost everybody, uh, who, you know, went in and R R talks about this is, it doesn't matter where you came from, doesn't matter your background, you know, your, if you had to get in, uh, with, uh, multiple waivers for being arrested.

• 57:03Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 57:04Speaker 06

  It does, it's like, it's like, okay, you've, you met the threshold and now everybody starts in this same, same, you know, same place.

• 57:14Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:15Speaker 06

  And that was just such a relief because like when I was going to school, um, I remember feeling like, you know, kind of taking on a little bit of a victim mentality, like this isn't fair. Why do I have to work and go to school and wrestle? My, my friends don't have to work. Their parents are taking care of it, you know? And, uh, so you kind of get that, that victim mentality if you're not careful. Well, now, um, all that doesn't matter. And you don't have to worry about money. I felt like I was rich. It was like an E1. I'm like, wait a minute, I have no expenses and I'm getting like 400 bucks every two weeks?

• 57:52Speaker 06

  This is awesome. This is, this is great. Uh, you know, so, um, uh, I thought it, I really enjoyed it. It was like, um, if you're a very goal oriented person, it's very like mapped out for you. It's like they give you the syllabus. Here, here's what we're doing. We're all in class, the same class. Then you can study in your off time. Here's when the test is going to be. Here's what's going to be on the test. So it's just all laid out for you. And, uh, and then I'm starting to stack up some wins, you know? I get, um, the top graduate out of basic training, uh, and then tech schools going really smooth.

• 58:34Speaker 06

  And I start realizing like, oh, like, maybe this is, uh, this is for me. This is kind of what I started feeling like, like this is a good, good path that I'm on.

• 58:43Shawn Ryan?

  What year, what timeframe is this?

• 58:46Speaker 06

  Um, I raised my right hand on, in December of 99.

• 58:51Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 58:51Speaker 06

  And then I was in the delayed entry program for, I forget, um, Couple months, so this is early 2000.

• 59:00Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, so just before September 11th.

• 59:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 59:03Shawn Ryan?

  So before we get to September 11th, can you, what does a crew chief do on a C-17?

• 59:09Speaker 06

  You're the, you're the, um, basically the chief mechanic. So you do all the servicing, um, you do most of the maintenance, that's, that's just kind of routine maintenance. Uh, and then you sign off on the jet when the pilots come out and they're ready to fly.

• 59:27Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 59:27Speaker 06

  You're, you're basically the lead crew chief. If there's more in-depth maintenance, then it would go to the back shop. So like the hydraulic specialist, or the engine specialist, or the avionics specialist, or whatever that may be. But you're kind of overseeing the overall, like, health and care of the airplane when it's not in the air. But it's a, it's a really cool opportunity, um, for a young person, cause, I mean, you know, I just told you where, where my background was, and now I'm working on this multimillion dollar airplane. And, uh, once you get a little experience, you can go and go on the missions with the aircraft. And, um, so now, now I'm traveling all over the country and all over the world. And, uh, it's, it's really a cool experience.

• 1:00:12Shawn Ryan?

  Nice, nice.

• 1:00:17Shawn Ryan?

  So I'm not sure where to inject this into the interview, so we'll just do it now, bud.

• 1:00:23Shawn Ryan?

  Cause we're talking early 2000 timeframe, so where are you on September 11th, 2001?

• 1:00:29Speaker 06

  Okay, so, um, I, uh, finished out my time as a crew chief. So I finished up tech school, then I went to Charleston, South Carolina. And, um, that's where I got picked up on an ROTC scholarship.

• 1:00:44Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:45Speaker 06

  So as soon as I got to my unit, so I did, like I said, great in BMT, did great in tech school, and then got a great start in Charleston. And I started realizing that, hey, maybe I could actually become a pilot. And maybe I can get good grades if I actually go to class and pay attention. So I started knocking out, um, classes in my off time, still training.

• 1:01:11Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of classes?

• 1:01:13Speaker 06

  Just basically my undergraduate stuff.

• 1:01:16Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, so you're working, you're back in school, college?

• 1:01:19Speaker 06

  So I'm trying to like, um, I'm realizing, so I had this epiphany. So when we're at tech school, we're at the same base as the pilot training base, one of the pilot training bases. So I'm talking to these guys flying the T-37 and the T-38 going through pilot training, like they're at the cafeteria, they're at the BX or whatever. And so, and they're basically spelling all this out of what it takes to become a pilot. And they're like, okay, here's what it is. You take the standardized test, they look at your GPA, your physical fitness test, and like anything else in the military, you can kind of reverse engineer it. So you're like, well, if I want

• 1:01:59Speaker 06

  to be competitive, here's the cut line, and here's the criteria for that. And I'm going, like, I think I could do that. Like, I can get good grades if I have this, like, fire under my ass, you know? So as I'm, even before I even get to my first base, I was thinking that that's what I wanted to do, that I'm gonna just take this and run with it. So I get to my first base, and I just start, basically, after about six months, I start putting together my paperwork to go to officer training. So I'm working as a crew chief. Again, I'm taking these, like, challenge exams, these CLAT tests, I'm studying on my own, challenging the courses.

• 1:02:42Speaker 06

  And all of a sudden, they're like, okay, well, your standardized test scores were good, because I, again, I just became fanatical about that goal. So, like, to do that, you need to be, you have to be good at your primary job. If I fail as a crew chief, this isn't gonna work. But I also need to, you know, I didn't have any math background to speak of. I didn't really pay attention at all in high school, so, really junior high either, so. I was basically building it from the ground up, but I was smart enough to figure

• 1:03:21Speaker 06

  out what I needed to do to get where I needed to be on this, on this testing. So, like I said, they made it very clear what the test was gonna be on, so you could just shore up those areas of your weaknesses. Yeah. So when I took the aptitude test, I was like middling to slightly below average in like every area, except for pilot aptitude, I was like top 10%. No shit. Cause there's like a hand-eye coordination part of it. I was always a good athlete. I got, I maxed the physical fitness test. And then I did pretty good on every other category, you know, for that test. So, the Air Force has gotten pretty good at being

• 1:04:04Speaker 06

  able to identify the characteristics that would make you good at the job. I mean, they've been doing it for a while. Yeah. So, for some reason, though, they were able to identify that. And I was just really fortunate to have some good leaders at that time. There was a group commander that was just an awesome guy. I'd gone on some, some trips with him. And he's just like, what do you want to do? You know, like, what are your goals? And I told him, I want to be a pilot. And he's like, I think you could do it. And so, I just got support early on, and I just went for it. So I did everything that was required for the application, and

• 1:04:46Speaker 06

  I got accepted for an ROTC scholarship. So, within a year and a half, so I'm living in my car, year and a half later, the Air Force is cutting me loose on a full scholarship to get my undergrad. Wow. And go to pilot training. So, I was- You crushed it. Yeah, I just, I like, I didn't go home. I didn't, it's hard to articulate. Like, I try to tell people, like, this is what I had to do to make that happen. Like I'm gonna do that. I wanna do that. And uh, and then they're like, hey, do you wanna go to like, you know, Chili's tonight and talk about it? And I'm like, dude, you're not getting it. Like, there's no more Chili's.

• 1:05:28Speaker 06

  Like, there's no more anything. Like, you are going to, if you want to do with what I did with the capabilities that I had, maybe someone smarter than me could have done it, uh, done it better, but um, that's, that's your new life is studying, working, training, sleeping. There's no more hours in the day. So I just, I just went all in on it and it magically worked out. I mean, I think if I tried to do that a thousand more times, it would probably, you know, fail 999 times. Like, it was just, all the circumstances just lined up perfectly. It's kind of pre nine eleven too, so

• 1:06:12Speaker 06

  they would cut you loose for programs like that back then. After nine eleven hit, there was like a stop loss that lasted many years. So they cut me loose, um, to go back to school just right before nine eleven. It was in August of two thousand and one.

• 1:06:29Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:06:29Speaker 06

  So, um, I, I think it was August eighteenth, I separate from the Air Force. I joined the Air Force Reserves while I'm a cadet and um, show up at the school. At this point, I only need two years left, just based on what I did pass in community college and uh, all the challenge exams and the, the courses that I had done while I was in. So I'm on a two-year ROTC scholarship and I'm sitting in the cafeteria, eating breakfast, getting ready to go to class and the news is on and I watch, uh, watch the planes impact.

• 1:07:06Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. What was your, I mean, what was the first thought that went through your head?

• 1:07:12Speaker 06

  I just like wanted to kick ass. Like I just remember thinking like, oh, like we have to go, you know, we have to go get these guys. And it just increased my motivation even more. Like, I just felt like, hey, we're we're under attack. There's this evil threat out there and people need to step up and do their part. And I knew that I just wanted to get through training as quick as possible. And I wanted to get in the fight. And that's how I felt at the time.

• 1:07:54Shawn Ryan?

  What was your, did you have any prior experience with A-10s? You've kind of brought that up.

• 1:08:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, so my, like, crew chief fundamentals instructor, so you're basically assigned to one main instructor. He was an A-10 crew chief. And he was a Gulf War veteran. So the whole time we're going through that course, I'm hearing stories about the A-10, you know, crushing tanks and scud hunting. And it, he like, he had all these, these stories that were just fascinating to me. And it just, I just, again, became kind of obsessed with the idea of flying this airplane. And the A-10 is so simple to work on. It's, it's

• 1:08:45Speaker 06

  very straightforward. So they use that for your basic crew chief training. So say you learn about the fundamentals of a hydraulic system, per se. So you're in the classroom. Here's the reservoir. Here's the pump. Here's the lines. Here's the, you know, the different types of valves, whatever it may be. You do the classroom instruction, and then you go out to the A-10, and you pull off the panels, and there it is. You can see it. It's, you know, it was designed for ease of maintenance, so it can operate in these austere environments. So it's a perfect airplane to learn the, the basics of being a mechanic on. So I'm sitting in the cockpit of this thing, you know, that's in the hangar for,

• 1:09:26Speaker 06

  for maintenance, looking through the heads up display. And, you know, I'm still a young, young guy, even though I, I took kind of the practical route to be a technician. Thinking more of like, hey, this could lead to a job. Uh, I still wanted to be, you know, kind of rose that um, desire to be a warrior within me. And then, you know, he had this story of um, he's like, there was this surfer guy and he flew like right over the top of us, went inverted and gave us the hand loose. And I, he's like, I could see his hand. That's how low they fly.

• 1:10:06Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:10:06Speaker 06

  And I remember just thinking like, how cool is that? Like, I mean, you're basically like, it combines everything that I loved, you know? You're like.

• 1:10:17Shawn Ryan?

  So when you went to, when you went to school, you know, with, with the intention to become a pilot, I mean, your intention the entire time was to be an A-10 pilot?

• 1:10:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, so once I decided that I was going down that path, I just wanted to fly the A-10. Like I just, the airplane kind of captured me in a way that none of the others did. And then when nine 11 hit, I knew that that airplane would be critical in this war that was gonna unfold. So um, my ROTC commander was an AC-130 guy. And so he basically laid it out. He's like, this uh, situation will impact the rest of your careers and probably your whole lives. So he's like, get ready for the long war because this is not gonna be over quick.

• 1:11:11Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:12Speaker 06

  And so I knew there was gonna be a lot of ground combat. I always thought like the um, like the F-15 and the, you know, then the F-22 that came out after, F-16, I always thought they're awesome. Um, but in my mind, at that point, I thought they're more oriented towards air-to-air. And our generation is going to be fighting this counterinsurgency. And so if I wanna contribute, I need to get into the air-to-ground game. And so, yeah, I, I just wanted to fly the A-10.

• 1:11:46Shawn Ryan?

  Very cool.

• 1:11:47Speaker 06

  And it became a little unhealthy because I felt like anything other than achieving that goal was a complete failure. And if I couldn't do that, I just might as well just quit or die trying.

• 1:12:01Shawn Ryan?

  Well, you had mentioned earlier that you get some laser focus.

• 1:12:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, and it's just like I watched all the documentaries, read all the books, and that's what I wanted to do.

• 1:12:11Shawn Ryan?

  So let's fast forward through your time at school and pick up when you come back into the Air Force.

• 1:12:20Speaker 06

  Okay, so now it's finished it up in two years. So now I'm a second lieutenant in the Air Force, getting ready for pilot training. So go off to Pensacola, there's an exchange.

• 1:12:35Shawn Ryan?

  Hold on, real quick. So they, did you have a guarantee that if you went through school that you are guaranteed to get into the pilot program?

• 1:12:42Speaker 06

  No, I had to compete. So at the end of your junior year, you are basically track selected for a job in the Air Force. So I finished my junior year, and now they take a combination of factors. So now same types of stuff, so your GPA, standardized test, commander's recommendation, physical fitness, and basically give you a number, you know, your overall score. And then you're racked and stacked against every other, you know, cadet that wants to be a pilot, and then there's a cut line. Everyone above it goes to pilot training, everyone below it has to compete for something else. So I did pretty good in ROTC.

• 1:13:25Speaker 06

  I graduated with honors now for my undergrad in history, and then off to pilot training. So, yeah, nothing's guaranteed. You always have to compete for what you're gonna do.

• 1:13:40Shawn Ryan?

  What about what type of plane you're gonna fly?

• 1:13:43Speaker 06

  So how that works is pilot training is essentially split up into two parts, and it's always changing, so the way, the details of how they do this, so I'm going back to my era, obviously, but after the first phase of flight training, they put you on a track. So there's fighter bomber track, which is you go fly the T-38, and that's for the guys that are gonna be tactical.

• 1:14:11Shawn Ryan?

  What is the T thirty eight?

• 1:14:13Speaker 06

  Uh, the T thirty eight Talon is a um twin engine, uh tandem cockpit. It it's a trainer aircraft, but it looks a lot like the F five that you saw, uh that they they called a MiG in Top Gun, the original. So it's it's just basically like a fifties era fast jet.

• 1:14:33Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:14:33Speaker 06

  It's super hard to fly. It's got like a tiny wing. It's really fast and you don't have any experience at that speed, but um. But yeah, so you finish up the first phase of training and then they track select you again. So fighter bomber, uh heavies. So like cargo aircraft or tankers and then like helicopters and then C one thirties are their own track. So you're constantly being sorted as you go.

• 1:14:59Shawn Ryan?

  And you have no input on this?

• 1:15:01Speaker 06

  You have your dream sheet. So the way you get what you want is you graduate higher. And then they match that up with what's available, the needs of the air force. So number one guy, say he wants to fly the tactical track, go T thirty eights. Um well, out of say like thirty five people, there's five or six going to the fighter bomber track. So top five or six guys that have identified that that's what they want to do, go on that track. On down the line until the bottom, the bottom graduate gets what's remaining.

• 1:15:40Shawn Ryan?

  What does nobody want?

• 1:15:41Speaker 06

  In my era, it was the AWACS. So the big command and control, like giant heavy with a big radar above you.

• 1:15:51Shawn Ryan?

  What does everybody want?

• 1:15:52Speaker 06

  Um, it changes. Uh, the way it was for us at the very beginning of class, they're like, who wants to be a fighter pilot? And nearly everybody raised their hand. And then like three months later, they're like, who wants to be a fighter pilot? And like half the people raised their hand. Cause training is very, it's very difficult. You're just getting kicked in the face every day, like.

• 1:16:18Speaker 06

  As you know, coming from your background, like, we don't have time to pat you on the back and tell you how good you are and how much potential you have. And it's okay, you did, you did good yesterday, but you just had a bad day. Like, there's, there's no, um, there's no time to talk about all the things you did right, because that's the standard, that's the expectation. So you have to have a thick skin, because everything revolves around the things that you need to improve on. So, um, it doesn't feel good to every day just get shredded. And you just, it just breaks you down over and over and over again. And then,

• 1:16:59Speaker 06

  uh, I think a lot of people halfway through that start going, "Yeah, I don't know if I want this life continuing on." Because you go, uh, the heavy track is just known as being a little more chill. Like, so, so this phase of my life is going to be over, and then I can, um, travel the world. And, and sure, it's an awesome career. I'm not diminishing it in any way. But not everybody wants to, um, again, get, keep getting kicked in the teeth for another three years. Yeah, yeah. So then, yeah, so then about half the people still were, wanted to fly fighters. And there was probably the top half of the class as you start to sort. And then, uh,

• 1:17:38Speaker 06

  that's about how it was at the end. But then it was early nine eleven, I would say, um, like, it started, it was, I'd say traditionally in the Air Force, in that timeframe, everybody, the best guys want to fly the F-15C, because that was a strictly an air-to-air platform. So it was, it was like, that's like straight out of Top Gun, right? You just go crush MiGs. And those guys are better at what they do. So F-15 still flies, but then a lot of those guys went on to the F-22. And they'll just kill anything that moves in the sky. Like, their, their, uh, capability is unbelievable. Like, you would not want to face these guys

• 1:18:21Speaker 06

  in the air. They're just single mission, single-minded, ease, breathe, and, you know, the whole deal, just nothing but air-to-air focused. Like, it's just every day, all day, all about killing MiGs. That's what they live for. And so, um,

• 1:18:39Speaker 06

  And it's a very difficult mission because if you're talking like four V four, four V eight, there's all these little fur balls everywhere and the guys that are good at it, they're fighting and they know where everybody else in their formation is fighting and they're tracking it like second by second and they know exactly the right ways to de-conflict the flight, to make the right radio calls, to recreate what happened in the debrief to a precision that's just is mind blowing. So traditionally, the very best guys wanted to go do that mission. But when nine eleven hit, then I would say there was starting to

• 1:19:20Speaker 06

  be a divergent because of the type of mission that the global, you know, the global war on terror was going to bring to us. So then you had a lot more guys want to fly the A-10 and then the F-15E and then the F-15, or sorry, the F-16 because they had an air-to-ground component. So I would say at that point, the best guys still want to fly kind of fighter attack and then it was just very dependent on personality as far as whether they want to fly after pilot training.

• 1:19:50Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting, interesting. So when you get to, when you get to flight school, how long is it before you're actually in a plane off the ground?

• 1:19:58Speaker 06

  It varies, but I think it's like, like you're waiting to start because like any, any program that's managing a large number of people, they might not flow you in immediately. I think I sat for like two months just waiting to start. Then I want to say it's six weeks of ground school and I think that included some simulator time and then you're in the air with your instructor.

• 1:20:23Shawn Ryan?

  What's the first plane you flew?

• 1:20:25Speaker 06

  Well, they did send me to get a private pilot's license in a Cessna kind of after, I think it was after college but before pilot training. And then the first military plane I flew was the T-34C with the Navy. So I was in an exchange program, took a handful of Navy and Marines and put them through Air Force primary training and then a handful of Air Force guys went and trained with the Navy.

• 1:20:51Shawn Ryan?

  How'd that feel, your first time up?

• 1:20:52Speaker 06

  Oh, it was incredible. It was like... It was almost surreal. It was like, I can't believe I actually am pulling this off. You know, but I mean, you quickly snap to it because you're behind the aircraft. So they talk about like, just like hanging from the vertical stab. Like things are happening before you can compute what you're supposed to do. So say there's a certain amount of tasks, even just for something simple as coming into land. So as you're on short final, you're getting ready for a short final, you need to drop the flaps. You know, get below a certain airspeed, drop the landing gear. You know, you're going through all these tasks. Well, now you're inside of the minimum range to get all those things done.

• 1:21:36Speaker 06

  Because your central processor's just bogged down. You're still thinking about what you messed up 10 minutes ago.

• 1:21:45Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:21:46Speaker 06

  So you're just, it just hits you like, okay. This is incredible. I can't believe I made it here. And I don't know if I'm gonna be good enough to actually do this. Cause it just seems overwhelming. You're looking at all the instruments. You're behind and it is tough, yeah.

• 1:22:04Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I can't imagine.

• 1:22:08Shawn Ryan?

  I tried to fly once. It, a Cessna. I ran it into the middle of the.

• 1:22:18Shawn Ryan?

  I didn't get very far. I ran it into the, like the grass median at the airport. And the guy that was teaching me was like, what the fuck are you doing?

• 1:22:27Speaker 06

  That's so funny.

• 1:22:28Shawn Ryan?

  I didn't know you stared.

• 1:22:28Speaker 06

  That's a bad instructor.

• 1:22:30Shawn Ryan?

  Hey.

• 1:22:32Shawn Ryan?

  I was, yeah, it was. Plus, I don't like heights. But, um. So what, what kind of stuff are you learning ground school?

• 1:22:42Speaker 06

  Um, you're just learning the systems of the aircraft. You're learning some basic aerodynamics. You're learning about aviation weather.

• 1:22:52Speaker 06

  I'm just going through the main emergencies. For, you know, how you're gonna handle these different malfunctions that can happen in the airplane. So these hands like trying to take a sip of water from a fire hose. And that's what it feels like. So you're just, they're just blasting you with information for eight hours a day. And they're trying to absorb it all.

• 1:23:13Shawn Ryan?

  Are there like, I just want you to go through the whole timeline, you know, of your experience. So you go to ground school, six weeks, then you're in your first, you're in the air for the first time in a military craft. Is it broken up into phases?

• 1:23:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. So there's what they call contact phase, which is just basic of flying the aircraft, daytime visual flight rules. So similar to kind of the stuff you'd learn in a Cessna. So just how to fly in the pattern, how to land the airplane, how to get out to the airspace, how to recover from stalls, you know, it's just the fundamentals of flying in the most kind of benign environment possible. So then you go through and there's like formate, or it's not necessarily in this order, but there's instrument phase. So now you're learning how to fly when you can't see outside just by looking at your instruments. And there's

• 1:24:13Speaker 06

  aerobatics, formation phase, low level, and then kind of tying it all together.

• 1:24:21Shawn Ryan?

  So when they, when you guys, I mean, I'd love to get a little more descriptive on each phase, but when you got like, as they continue to sort the class out, I mean, does the class get broken up? Or is it all the same pipeline?

• 1:24:35Speaker 06

  You're all in the same pipeline. So you're all going through, and if someone gets ahead, they'll kind of slow them down, and then people catch up. And anytime throughout this process, you're three flights away from going home. So you fail a ride, you go to a progress check with your flight commander, you pass that ride, continue on in the syllabus, you fail that ride, you're on an elimination ride with your squadron commander, or someone he designated to do that for him. So.

• 1:25:12Speaker 06

  It's a tremendous amount of pressure because you have this in the back of your head and you see it happen is just, you have a bad week and your hopes and dreams are gone.

• 1:25:22Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:25:23Speaker 06

  So you see that guy shows up Monday morning, no problems and started out process Friday afternoon.

• 1:25:30Shawn Ryan?

  Damn. What's the attrition rate like?

• 1:25:33Speaker 06

  Um, I don't know exactly. It's not that high. I want to say like 10, 15% when I was going through. And um, they, they have a pretty thorough vetting process.

• 1:25:50Speaker 06

  So by the time you get there, you know, you've, you've probably have a pretty good GPA through college. You've done through all the standardized testing. So they, I think they do a pretty good job of, of finding the people who it's just not for. Uh, and then if you're having a hard time, they might have a community that would make sense for your skillset. So you barely make it through formation phase. Well, there's aircraft you can fly that don't necessarily fly in close formation all the time, you know, so um,

• 1:26:27Speaker 06

  if you're capable and you're good enough to get there and you don't quit, there's a pretty good chance I'll get you through.

• 1:26:33Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:26:34Speaker 06

  But when you're going through that as a student, uh, you don't feel that.

• 1:26:39Shawn Ryan?

  What, why do planes, why do you guys fly in a formation?

• 1:26:43Speaker 06

  Um, there would be a lot of reasons. So they call it basic admin. It might just be getting to the target area. Um, as easy as possible. So say there's a bunch of weather and um,

• 1:26:58Speaker 06

  and you're getting vectored around by air traffic control and you're leading a force ship, you might just want to bring everyone in close formation. If it's really busy airspace or something and they just fly visually off you and then everyone else de-conflicting around you. Doesn't have to de-conflict from this massive airplanes that are all a mile and a half apart from each other. They could all be close in. So, uh, yeah. So basically it's for close in formation is for admin and then you have tactical formations, which are obviously more spread out. And that's for like employing and uh, surviving and killing the target.

• 1:27:36Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:27:37Speaker 06

  So that, yeah, there's a, there's an endless amount of discussion on, on the tactics it would,

• 1:27:44Speaker 06

  you know, the, the skill set that you need to be able to employ these airplanes.

• 1:27:48Shawn Ryan?

  What is the, I mean, how, how is the relationship between instructor and student? Is it, is it like they're yelling and screaming at you all the time?

• 1:27:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, it just depends on the instructors.

• 1:28:00Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:28:00Speaker 06

  It was funny, like, I, I flew with, one of my first instructors was a Marine, and he's sitting behind you in the T-34, and he would just get furious. He'd grab his water bottle and throw it in the back of your head.

• 1:28:16Speaker 06

  And he would keep tally of things you screwed up and make you push the ground when you land, you know, so you, you, you land and you're sitting there like, under the wing of your airplane, just doing like a hundred pushups or whatever he tallied up. And then some of the guys were like, they're like, "Man, this is like shore duty for us." Like, "This is fine, like, just, like, here's what we're gonna work on today." Like, it really came down to the individual. The Navy is way more chill in primary flight training than the Air Force.

• 1:28:45Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 1:28:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, absolutely. The Navy's like, um, it was, it was an awesome experience. They're like, I remember that a lot of IPs are like chilling on the beach and surfing and, you know, doing their thing and their, um...

• 1:28:59Shawn Ryan?

  What's an IP?

• 1:29:00Speaker 06

  Uh, sorry, instructor pilot.

• 1:29:02Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:29:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'll try not to use acronyms, but, uh, yeah, so the instructor pilots, the, overall, they had a real big picture.

• 1:29:10Speaker 06

  You know, there's still, there's still a standard to meet, like, like I was saying, like, if, it's just, uh, they might just have a smile on their face as they do it.

• 1:29:22Speaker 06

  They stab you in the guts, but overall, I really, uh, enjoyed, enjoyed flying with those guys.

• 1:29:29Shawn Ryan?

  What did you find to be the most challenging part of flight school?

• 1:29:33Speaker 06

  Um, well, all of flight school, so after you finish the T-34, then you're track selected, as I mentioned, so I'm off to the T-38. Now I'm in Vance Air Force Base in Oklahoma, and, um...

• 1:29:48Speaker 06

  I'm going flying a 150 knot prop airplane to flying a supersonic jet with a tiny wing, which your syllabus has you soloing in like six rides. So that entire program of the T38 was excruciating. Like I have never felt that level of stress in my life. So just trying to keep up. I'm the kind of guy who has like a slow learning curve. So there's like, there's standards, right? Like little milestones along the way and then you hit an end of block and a check ride. So I get to the end of the block and check ride and my learning curve keeps going, going up and then I hit where I'm supposed to be at that, like exactly when I have to and then start over like sucking.

• 1:30:33Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:30:34Speaker 06

  So, and in my mind, I'm like, if I don't get an A10, like I'm just, this whole thing was for nothing. You know, I don't, and like, there's, there was literally, there was one A10 out of my entire class. So I'm feeling like.

• 1:30:48Shawn Ryan?

  Are you serious? So do you know, hold on. So do you know what the slots are that you're competing, competing for? Like when you show up to Clyde's school, are they saying, we got one A10 slot, we got two C17 slots, we've got six F22 slots?

• 1:31:08Speaker 06

  You don't know exactly, but you kind of have an idea just based on the trend data.

• 1:31:13Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:31:14Speaker 06

  So you kind of see where it's going and you realize like, typically there was one per class. Couple of F16s, F15E and like an F, no, sorry. Couple of F16s, F15, uh, E and an F15C. That was like pretty standard. So, um, if you have a single minded goal of what you want to fly, you might be very disappointed because threading that needle is very difficult.

• 1:31:44Shawn Ryan?

  So what was it like when the first sorting? In your class.

• 1:31:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, so they brought us in and I think I was the first one they told. And they're just like Lieutenant Stark, T-38. And then right after me was my buddy John Deloney, who went on to fly the F-15C and the F-22. And they're like Lieutenant Deloney, T-38. And we're just like, yes, we're so stoked. It was just, it was just this huge relief. And then, and then they go through, they're like, T-1, T-1, T-1. There's a whole bunch of cargo aircraft to fly. And then it could like C-130 helicopter, and then you're done. And I was just like, well, I guess we're done.

• 1:32:28Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, damn. Lot of disappointment or?

• 1:32:32Speaker 06

  Um, yeah, little disappointment. There's some people that, um,

• 1:32:38Speaker 06

  that, you know, their dad was an F-4 pilot and they want to be a fighter pilot and it just wasn't gonna happen. And, uh, they're devastated. But most people, I would say, start seeing the good and what they're gonna be doing. And you kind of have a idea of where you're at in the class as you're going through.

• 1:32:56Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 1:32:57Speaker 06

  So if you're passing most of your rides and you're getting decent scores, you can look around and be like, well, they're not necessarily, not everyone's making it through is, uh, effortlessly, effortlessly, I know that's not the right word, but you're struggling, but you're still progressing on time. And that's not the case for everybody. So you start to kind of have the natural hierarchy kind of develop in the class. So there's not a ton of surprises.

• 1:33:29Shawn Ryan?

  So you get, you go through your first sorting and then, and then what happens?

• 1:33:35Speaker 06

  So now I leave the Navy and I go out to Vance Air Force Base in Enid, Oklahoma, and, uh, start to fly the T-38. So that's where you get your, your fighter bomber pilots from. So that's six months, um, flying the T-38. And it's basically the same syllabus that you just went through, but now it's in a much more advanced aircraft.

• 1:33:58Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. What was your first time like going up in that?

• 1:34:02Speaker 06

  It was like, it was, it was devastating because.

• 1:34:08Speaker 06

  It felt impossible. Like, I was like, there's no way I'm gonna be able to do this. Like, the airplane was so fast, I was not able to keep up. Like, it's like CPU overload. Like, I'm still thinking about what I need to do for pre-takeoff checks, and we're 10 miles from the base.

• 1:34:25Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:34:27Speaker 06

  And my instructor's basically doing everything, you know? And you practiced it, rehearsed it, studied it a ton, been in the simulator, and you're, it's just, it's so difficult to make that transition. And it's, it's a really hard airplane to fly. Like, we've lost a lot of pilots in the T-38. In fact, they're getting ready to replace it with an airplane that will be much easier to fly, still prepare you to fly, you know, tactical aircraft, but it's tough, man. And if you make a minor mistake, you're gonna end up as a fireball at the end of the runway. So, it's deadly serious.

• 1:35:03Shawn Ryan?

  This is the one you were saying that's similar to Ameg?

• 1:35:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:35:06Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. So, if it's so difficult, why, why do you think they chose that aircraft?

• 1:35:12Speaker 06

  I mean, it's been around since the 50s, so I think it's just been effective. Like, it's like, if you can fly the T-38, you can fly anything.

• 1:35:21Shawn Ryan?

  You think it's a wise decision to move to a easier aircraft to fly?

• 1:35:26Speaker 06

  I think so. I think as we move, um, as we move on to more advanced fighters, they're actually not that difficult to fly.

• 1:35:34Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:35:35Speaker 06

  Like, that, just the basics of taking off and landing and flying the airplane, they're extremely stable aircraft. So, um, I think that, I think that they will be effective, and there'll be a lot more, um, use of avionics that will be similar to your follow-on assignments in fighter aircraft. So, yeah, I think it will work, and I think it'll save a lot of people's lives.

• 1:36:00Shawn Ryan?

  Is there any animosity within the pilot community that they're moving to an easier aircraft to fly?

• 1:36:07Speaker 06

  I don't think so. I think most, most, most people are looking at it going, it's time.

• 1:36:12Shawn Ryan?

  That's good.

• 1:36:13Speaker 06

  It's past time. And we've all lost friends in that airplane, too. And for, um, just minor little errors, you know?

• 1:36:22Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:36:22Speaker 06

  Like, if you forget to drop the flaps on the final turn, which, guess what, students do all the time. Uh, and you get five knots slow, the aircraft will stall. And go nose down and impact the ground and kill you. So it there's very little margin for error in that airplane.

• 1:36:40Shawn Ryan?

  Shit. Have they already made that change?

• 1:36:43Speaker 06

  Uh, they're still flying them. I don't know exactly where they're at in the transition, but they've identified the new aircraft. It's a Boeing product, so who knows?

• 1:36:53Shawn Ryan?

  Uh oh.

• 1:36:53Speaker 06

  Probably be many delays.

• 1:36:55Shawn Ryan?

  Don't blow the whistle on that. You might get assassinated, right?

• 1:36:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'll leave that one alone, but we'll see. We'll see how that goes.

• 1:37:04Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Interesting. How many sortings are there?

• 1:37:09Speaker 06

  So now you get to the so the first big sort is after primary training. Then you go to the T thirty eight and then at the end of this six months, they um then they assign you to your actual airframe that you're gonna you're gonna, you know, fly for the rest of your career for the most part. So um out of my class, it was six guys, I think. And according to our flight commanders, they really.

• 1:37:38Shawn Ryan?

  Six pilots total in the program?

• 1:37:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:37:40Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit, at all the air force. And how many years long is this training?

• 1:37:45Speaker 06

  Uh, the whole program is a year.

• 1:37:47Shawn Ryan?

  So every year, there's like?

• 1:37:49Speaker 06

  There's they're starting a new class every few weeks.

• 1:37:53Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:37:54Speaker 06

  So um, I'm not exactly sure what the timeline is. They they vary that based on demand signal from from the combat air forces, you know. Um, but I want to say every like three to six weeks, they start a new class.

• 1:38:11Shawn Ryan?

  Shit, that's still not very many pilots a year.

• 1:38:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, you start out, you know, with thirty five and now six of you are in this new track and out of that, um, it might be three, it might be five usually actually get a fighter aircraft.

• 1:38:29Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:38:32Shawn Ryan?

  So was that the last phase?

• 1:38:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, so you get done with that, um, then you get assigned to your, the aircraft you're gonna fly.

• 1:38:40Shawn Ryan?

  All right, let's not go there yet.

• 1:38:41Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 1:38:42Shawn Ryan?

  Let's keep, let's stay in training. So, what, I mean, what questions should I be asking you about training?

• 1:38:47Speaker 06

  No, these are all good questions. Like, the biggest like thing that I have that stands out to me from this experience is just, it's like how brutally stressful it was every day. And at this point, now your instructors are looking at you like, hey, this guy's gonna be on my wing, potentially in combat in a matter of months, and is he cut out for this? He's gonna be in a single seat airplane. The instructor's not gonna be there for you, uh, to save you. So it's, it's all gonna be you. Uh, and so they're, they're just making sure, leaving every, you know, make sure there's no stones unturned. So if you have a weakness,

• 1:39:29Speaker 06

  it, it, there's no way to paper over it. Like, so they will find it and exploit it and, until you either figure it out or you go do something else.

• 1:39:41Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:39:41Speaker 06

  So, uh, it's, you know, like, it's like any difficult transformation, it has, you have to be under pressure. So by the end of that program, I mean, you're, you're a very capable pilot. So six months of extreme stress, and I had like a terrible checkride at the very beginning of the T-38, uh, program. So I'm essentially starting the program dead last in my class.

• 1:40:11Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:40:11Speaker 06

  I'm going like, like, the whole time in the back of my mind, they're going, they're gonna send me to a bomber. I'm gonna get a bomber, like, and, uh, I did not want to do that. So, you know, now being older, seeing a little bit more and more mature, I know that those guys go on to have great careers and, um, do amazing things. But, you know, 22-year-old me saw that as the biggest failure ever if I couldn't go fly the A-10.

• 1:40:41Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:40:42Speaker 06

  So it was, it's just tough, man. It's just like, I mean, you go to bed, shut your eyes, and you're still, you're still seeing like radials and instruments and, um,

• 1:40:55Speaker 06

  Different sight pictures that you need for flying this airplane. It just, you're, you're, they're turning you into just like a normal person into someone who can fly a fighter by yourself. So it's difficult.

• 1:41:06Shawn Ryan?

  Is there, so in, in, in phase one and phase two, which we're covering right now, what, I mean, are you, is this straight up, this is how you fly the plane? Or is, is it, is there any engagements happening? Like using the weapons?

• 1:41:28Speaker 06

  Not during this phase. It's basic flying.

• 1:41:32Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:41:32Speaker 06

  Like, again, contact, which is just taking off and landing, stalls and falls, we call it, just learn how to recover from stalls. All your emergency procedures, then it's aerobatics, you know, instruments, formation, low level. So this is, it's funny because it's so difficult and then later on in your career, it's the stuff you don't even think about. You go like, you cannot be an effective fighter pilot if you're thinking about flying the airplane.

• 1:42:02Shawn Ryan?

  So you just, basically what you're saying is the fundamentals have to become muscle memory?

• 1:42:06Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:42:07Shawn Ryan?

  It's like, for me, that would be like, shooting, or you shouldn't be thinking about, I can't.

• 1:42:15Speaker 06

  You're not thinking about your controls and this and that, and then I'm going to pull the trigger. It's just an extension of your body. You have to strap on the jet and it just becomes a part of who you are. And you're thinking about, you know, fast forwarding, now you're thinking about everything else that's going on in the battle space and you're flying your airplane.

• 1:42:33Shawn Ryan?

  So flying, it becomes slow state?

• 1:42:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:42:37Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:42:37Speaker 06

  It has to. Like, if you're focused inside your airplane, flying it, you can't manage the stack of all the aircraft and keep track of all the targets, threats, friendlies, artillery, like, it's just impossible. So you, they, they, they build this into you, so then going forward, it just becomes second nature. You do it without thinking.

• 1:42:59Shawn Ryan?

  How fast are you guys flying?

• 1:43:01Speaker 06

  Uh, in the T-38, I think the standard cruise speed was 300 knots.

• 1:43:05Shawn Ryan?

  Damn. So what is that in mph?

• 1:43:08Speaker 06

  Uh, it's similar. There's like a minor variation.

• 1:43:11Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:43:11Speaker 06

  But then it's supersonic, so up at altitude, you can break the sound barrier.

• 1:43:15Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 1:43:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's cool.

• 1:43:17Shawn Ryan?

  What, I mean, what is that like?

• 1:43:19Speaker 06

  It's awesome.

• 1:43:20Shawn Ryan?

  Do you feel it?

• 1:43:22Speaker 06

  Oh, oh, when you break the sound barrier? No, it's funny. You just actually just see the little Mach meter going. You're like, hey, I guess, cool.

• 1:43:31Speaker 06

  I've done something not everyone has done.

• 1:43:34Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, that's cool.

• 1:43:35Speaker 06

  My first solo in the T-38 was pretty funny.

• 1:43:39Speaker 06

  So, you know, you've gone through all this training and finally they're like, they give you the keys of the airplane. And they're like, the last thing they always tell you is, don't do anything dumb, dangerous, or different. You're gonna fly this very generic profile, but what does everybody do? Go do something dumb, dangerous, and different.

• 1:44:01Speaker 06

  So, I remember sitting in the, in the runway, waiting to take off and just being like, I'm, I'm looking to my left and right, seeing the jets. You know, you see yourself in the mirror and you've got the visor and the oxygen mask on. You're just like, I cannot believe this is happening. And I don't know if I can land. Like, you're like, I'm okay at it with the instructor coaching me. Like, I don't know if I can pull this off. Like, smoothly, you know? And like I said, people die trying, so it's no joke. But anyway, once you get cleared for takeoff, then it's just go time and you do what you're trained to do. It is not so bad. But I get out

• 1:44:42Speaker 06

  to the airspace and I've got a 10,000 foot block. So that's my, my working airspace and I've got, I'm scheduled for like 20 minutes out there.

• 1:44:49Shawn Ryan?

  What does that mean? Does that mean you can't go higher than 10,000?

• 1:44:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, so your block would be like, just as an example, it might be like, your working airspace is within these like geographic confines, you have the altitude 10,000 to 20,000 feet. And once you're established in that airspace, they'll keep all the other airplanes out of it and you can maneuver how you wish and you're not gonna, you're not gonna have to worry about deconflicting with other aircraft. So I get out to my working airspace and the first thing I do is get to the very bottom of it, put in full blower, goes like fast as humanly possible and then just, this is something we've never done, practicing of course, and just point the nose directly at the sky and go full aileron deflection. So now I'm just like corkscrewing.

• 1:45:37Speaker 06

  Oh my god, dude. And I'm like, this is like, it's like, this is awesome. Like, I can't believe I have this like Ferrari and I can do anything I want with it. And I'm like, I'm like, man, I am kicking ass right now. This is so cool. I glance at my altimeter and I'm like 5,000 feet out the top of my, my airspace. Oh shit. Which like, you know, you're getting into like airline territory now. I'm like, oh damn it. Like, this is not good. So I like rip it to idle, pull the nose down and now the jet is like, now I'm screaming. Oh my god. Down at the ground and the, the T38 has a tiny wing, um, which means it has a

• 1:46:21Speaker 06

  huge turn circle. So when you're at speed, like the radius of the turn is ginormous, right? So now I'm like trying to dish out this turn and I'm like, I'm like max performing the aircraft. I can't pull any harder and I'm just trying to dish it out. I go through the top of my block and I'm still basically vertical and I barely bring it back down to altitude right at the bottom of the floor, like 10,000 feet. And now my heart rate is racing. I'm at like 200 beats per minute and I'm just going, I am such an idiot. I'm gonna get kicked out of this program. And it's like the first, so I like stand the throttles up, put it in 30 degrees angle bank and for the next like 24 minutes, I just

• 1:47:04Speaker 06

  fly this perfect circle around airspace. Can they see you? Can they see what you're doing? They're, uh, this is, now they can see everything. Back then, not nearly as much. So they might have like a radar feed, but it's like. You know, have latency.

• 1:47:21Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:21Speaker 06

  And anyhow, so then I like, I bring the jet back. No issues. I walk in, first thing I do, I kind of look at the ops desk, see what they're gonna say. They're like, hey, welcome back. You got another sortie in twenty, you know, two hours, get ready. And I'm like, okay, we're good, we're good.

• 1:47:43Shawn Ryan?

  How do you not get sick? Doing that.

• 1:47:46Speaker 06

  I just.

• 1:47:47Shawn Ryan?

  When your cork's going up at three hundred miles an hour. And then going straight down.

• 1:47:55Speaker 06

  I, I don't know. I think air sickness is a lot of it's psychological. This is, this is my view. I'm not a flight doctor, but I just refuse to get airsick. I was like, I saw people wash out because of airsickness. And I was just like, I'm not gonna get sick. I'm just gonna look outside. It's not gonna happen. I, I think that maybe some people are more prone to it, but I think exposure, you know, it helps. So if you're flying all the time, you're used to being hot, sweaty, maneuvering, you just, your body acclimates it like it does to anything else.

• 1:48:31Shawn Ryan?

  Can you explain the G-force?

• 1:48:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, so as you turn, pull on the stick, it's just that centrifugal force is pulling you down into your seat. So, you know, if, whatever your weight is, you have to times that by the number of G-forces. So right now, we're at one G, right? So if we were at ten Gs, you would, your frame would be carrying ten times the amount of your body weight. So as you're under G, like so as I'm pulling out of that turn, you're doing what's called an anti-G straining maneuver. So you have a G-suit on, which looks like a pair of like cowboy chaps, and then they have air pockets in them. You plug that into the jet,

• 1:49:20Speaker 06

  and then it uses the pneumatic system to squeeze your legs. Tighter and tighter, the harder you pull. So you do that in combination with an anti-G straining maneuver, which is you just flex your legs, flex your butt, flex your abdomen, and keep high pressure in your lungs. And then you just take these quick, short choppy breaths. But the idea is you're forcing all the blood to remain in your brain so you don't lose consciousness and die because you're by yourself. Wow. So you gotta learn how to, you know, fly and fight in that, that environment. And that's a lot of the training is just getting, finding out who's capable of doing that, and then train yourself to be able to do it.

• 1:50:05Speaker 06

  Was that hard for you to master that? Um, it came pretty natural. Being like, kind of a shorter, stockier guy. I think the guys that I saw that had problems pulling a lot of Gs were kind of taller and skinnier. So it's like, I think the distance from your heart to your, your head has an impact, and then just your overall musculature. So if you can, um, hold that high tension in your body, you can just force that brain, that blood up to your brain a little bit easier. Wow. Do a lot of people go out? Yeah, especially in, um, like the F-16 happens all the time. A lot of, I've lost friends that way. Oh, man. You know, it's, it's, they're pulling nine Gs,

• 1:50:50Speaker 06

  which is a lot. The A-10 max, I think, was like 7.5. But yeah, they're pulling a ton of Gs. And they're right on that threshold. And nobody wants to lose, right? So they're, your vision, as you start to G out, your vision starts going tunnel vision, blacking out around the periphery, and you're just looking right down the center. And then it just closes up and guys go unconscious. But like, even the best guys will fly in that, that gray area, where they're like, um, about ready to pass out.

• 1:51:24Shawn Ryan?

  Whoa.

• 1:51:25Speaker 06

  Just they wanna, you know.

• 1:51:27Shawn Ryan?

  You do that?

• 1:51:28Speaker 06

  No, the A-10, um, it being primarily air to ground was not, um, this is, I'm talking more air to air now.

• 1:51:37Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:51:37Speaker 06

  A-10 is more just repetitive, like you're pulling G's off target and then off target maneuvering. So you're getting that continuous stress, but it's not like you're in a turning fight. And if you can just get your nose around, you can gun the guy or get a missile on him. Now that's where they are under that prolonged sustained G. And like the thrust to weight ratio of those fighters is incredible. So they can just, you know, full blower, full turn and sustain that energy. So.

• 1:52:06Shawn Ryan?

  Oh shit.

• 1:52:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's a, it's a pretty dynamic environment.

• 1:52:12Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know how you do it.

• 1:52:15Shawn Ryan?

  Even just doing elevators in a helicopter, man, going straight up, I feel like my brain's gonna go out my ass.

• 1:52:21Speaker 06

  Dude, it's so much better when you're flying yourself.

• 1:52:25Speaker 06

  Cause it's, it starts to feel just like an extension of your body, right? Like it's just you, you and the machine merge and you're just thinking about your, uh, your mission and you know, what you're trying to do in that moment. So if I, yeah, I'd be way worse off in the back for sure.

• 1:52:44Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. So you go through, so you go through, you get through phase two and what happens?

• 1:52:52Speaker 06

  So now I'm a, um, know that I'm borderline of what I'm gonna get. And, uh, um, and essentially how it goes down is they bring you, um, you have an assignment night party. And they bring you into the, um, the officers' club and all your friends and family are there. And they bring someone up and they have different ways of doing it that are, that are just funny. You know, kind of make it seem. Random, but it's not. They have like big Wheel of Fortune. And then there's your entire drop. So you get in the room and you're looking at like all the airplanes on the Wheel of Fortune, right? And they, like I said, they have many different ways of doing it. But then a guy like, they'll just call somebody up.

• 1:53:37Speaker 06

  And they'll spin it. And then they'll like stop it and then keep it going. You know, it's like, someone's actually manipulating it. And then it stops and they go, uh, grab that airplane and then spin it. The next guy does. And so you basically just, uh, get assigned where you're gonna go. So, uh, for me, um, I had no idea what I was gonna get. They don't tell you. Um, and my flight commander knew how bad I wanted to fly the A-10. In fact, um, approaching the end of pilot training, uh, he had told me that there were no A-10s in the drop, which was true.

• 1:54:20Speaker 06

  And, uh, I told him that, uh, I wanted to cross commission to the Marines and, um, fly the Harrier or the Hornet. And I told him all about this, um, cross commissioning program that I was gonna do if I didn't get the A-10. And, uh, in my stupid mind, I thought they are, like, I could actually do that because there's a, there's an official program for transferring to other services. And he just laughed. He's like, he's like, you have a 10-year commitment. The Air Force is not going to let you join the Marine. And I'm like, uh, I'm having nightmares that I'm not gonna get what I, you know, set out to do. I,

• 1:54:59Speaker 06

  I, uh, I would have been, again, it was a lot of immaturity at the time, but that's just how I felt about it. And anyhow, I got up there and they're just like, uh, Lieutenant Stark. And they like messed with me a little bit, showed different airplanes. And then they're like, congratulations, A-10 to, uh, Tucson, Arizona. Then, uh, it was just total relief at that point.

• 1:55:24Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, man.

• 1:55:27Shawn Ryan?

  Do you get pinned or anything like that?

• 1:55:29Speaker 06

  Um, no, it's, uh, it's before you've got your wings.

• 1:55:33Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:55:33Speaker 06

  It's like you're, it's like maybe two weeks left. You have just a handful of sorties before you actually get your pilot wings.

• 1:55:41Shawn Ryan?

  So you get the A-10.

• 1:55:44Shawn Ryan?

  How long is it before you go to Tucson?

• 1:55:47Speaker 06

  So there's still some more training you need to do. So you go to Survival School out in Spokane, Washington. And you go to Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals, which is another washout program.

• 1:56:05Shawn Ryan?

  What'd you think of SERE School? I've never talked to a pilot about SERE School.

• 1:56:08Speaker 06

  I loved it.

• 1:56:09Shawn Ryan?

  You loved it?

• 1:56:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was like in my element, you know, like

• 1:56:13Shawn Ryan?

  Out of the woods?

• 1:56:14Speaker 06

  Being just, yeah, back in the woods. I was with my buddy, my buddy John, we were kind of like combat paired together. And I'm a wrestler, so I'm used to not eating and cutting weight, used to being in the woods. So I had a great time. And then like everyone else was like starving to death. And I think I kind of like relished in the suffering.

• 1:56:38Speaker 06

  It was, yeah, there's a lot, you don't want to divulge about it because when someone goes through it, you want them to have that experience unfold. So they get the, get all the, all the training value that they need out of it. But that Survival School turns into your, you know, Advanced Beatings or your POW Internment School or whatever they're calling it. So you end up as a POW and then you go, go through that. And it was, it was a great experience. Like, I mean, just going through the full range of, of emotions as you're thinking about all of those,

• 1:57:21Speaker 06

  you know, POWs who've actually went through that and the guys at the Hanoi Hilton and

• 1:57:26Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:27Speaker 06

  the, you know, Japan and Germany and just going back and you're like, you know, this is scripted. We know that they're not going to kill us. It's not that, it's not that stressful. I know when we're leaving here. So, you know, it's not the same, but you do reflect on what those guys have been through and what your mindset would be if you were, were captured. So I just, I just thought it was a great experience.

• 1:57:52Shawn Ryan?

  Good, good. And so then you go to some type of a fighter school?

• 1:57:56Speaker 06

  Yeah. So now you have another six week program. It's called Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals. It's in the T-38 and it's the last

• 1:58:06Speaker 06

  Like vetting before they actually let you go fly a fighter aircraft. So, um, so that program like again is six weeks and now you're starting to learn tactics. So you're taking everything you learned about the fundamentals of flying and now you're flying in tactical formations. You're learning the communications, the formations and everything you need for all the like air to air engagements. So that way, when you get to your first squadron, you've got like the vocabulary and the basic understanding of how to set these things up. Then you're learning the basics of air to ground and, um, uh, you know, so you're, you're

• 1:58:48Speaker 06

  going through the six week program and the way that the, the instructors are looking at it as, um, now these guys are really close, um, to get into a fighter squadron and this is our last chance to make sure they're good to go. So then that's also, like I said, a washout program and in our era, we lost, um, I don't know the stats, but it was a fair amount of people. They were just getting ejected left and right.

• 1:59:15Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:59:16Speaker 06

  And I had such a hard time in T-38s. I was pretty stressed out about heading out there, uh, but for some reason, just a combination of, um, luck and timing or whatever it was, I just flew right through that program. I think I busted one ride and, uh, passed the recheck and was done like two weeks before everyone else. So I was just like, life is good, man. I made it.

• 1:59:41Shawn Ryan?

  Right on, man. So I guess at that point you're heading to fly the A-10.

• 1:59:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, the next going out to fly the hog.

• 1:59:48Shawn Ryan?

  Let's, uh, let's take a quick break and when we come back, we'll pick up right there.

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• 2:00:33Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Dale, we're back from the break. You're getting ready to sit in and fly the A-10 for the first time.

• 2:00:42Shawn Ryan?

  Let's start right there.

• 2:00:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, that was just an incredible experience. I mean, you've been through so much. You start to maybe see the light at the end of the tunnel a little bit. Like, you're actually, you're just, can't believe you maneuvered through this maze and ended up exactly what you had set out to do. And the training in the A-10 was just a great experience. Like, the mentality was, you're one of us now. And we're going to train you how to employ this weapon system. And there are guys and gals who don't make it through that training. But it's not for lack of trying from the instructors.

• 2:01:25Speaker 06

  So you do have a little bit of relief from that constant pressure. But not a ton, but again, you just feel like you might actually make this happen now.

• 2:01:39Shawn Ryan?

  What's it like for you? Like, you had not wavered in what you wanted this entire time. So, I mean, just describe your first time climbing into that aircraft.

• 2:01:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, I still remember it like it was yesterday. Like, the A-10 is huge for, like, a tactical aircraft. If you see one next to an F-16, we used to joke that you could put the F-16 on one of our hard points and it would, like, work as a missile. Like, it's just a massive airplane. It looks similar size, like a B-17 from the World War II era. And, yeah, you get there and you're just, it's almost surreal, you know? So you go through, again, ground school, simulator training. And then you hit the flight line and there's no two-seaters in this airplane. Like, they made a couple and they never went operational with them. So every A-10 in the fleet is a single-seat airplane. So...

• 2:02:39Speaker 06

  You go through your simulator training and then next thing you know, you're out there on your first flight by yourself. And you have an instructor and he's just kinda tucked in behind you the whole time. And he's there and he's talking on the radio. And it feels similar to having him in your cockpit, but he can't take the jet from you if, if needed, so it's on you. But yeah, you, you're just, you walk around this airplane. You see the Gal 8 Avenger. You know, you're looking at the, uh, seven barrels, looking at all the hard points, the titanium bathtub.

• 2:03:11Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean by the hard points?

• 2:03:12Speaker 06

  Oh, sorry, the hard points underneath the wing and the fuselage that hold your, uh, the conventional weapons.

• 2:03:19Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:03:19Speaker 06

  So missiles, bombs, uh, things of that nature.

• 2:03:23Shawn Ryan?

  Are those all attached for your first flight?

• 2:03:25Speaker 06

  So you don't, uh, for your first flight, you might have some like AIM 9s that you just have to have like a symmetrical, um, configuration.

• 2:03:34Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:03:35Speaker 06

  But there's not much on it. They depend on what you're doing. There's, there's like a couple AIM 9s on it and then something to counterbalance it on the other side, if I recall correctly. But yeah, so, uh, you're like, this is actually like, is this, someone pinch me, am I gonna wake up and this whole thing was a dream? Cause it's just such a whirlwind. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's incredible. And then you climb up the ladder, you know, fired up, drop the canopy and you're, it's got this big bubble canopy, so you're just kinda looking over your shoulders and you don't see a ton of the jet when you're sitting in the seat, cause they want you to have really good visibility to execute the mission. So it's just, it's an incredible feeling. Like the T-38, you feel like you're in the jet.

• 2:04:20Speaker 06

  The, the A-10, you feel like you're sitting kinda on top of it, you know? Uh, like the jet's just basically underneath and behind you is how it feels. And, uh, yeah, and then you again, do everything that you've been trained to do, take the runway, get cleared for takeoff, throttle comes forward and off you go. And, you know, get airborne. Bring the gear and the flaps up and turn out into your working airspace and you're just like, you know, maybe look over at your instructor who's now your wingman and you're like, holy shit, I did this. I pulled it off. Like, if I die tomorrow, I was an A-10 pilot. I'm never thinking that. I'm like, no one can ever take this away from me.

• 2:05:03Shawn Ryan?

  Well, how did it maneuver?

• 2:05:05Speaker 06

  Um, it maneuvers great. So, one of the key aspects of the aircraft and its design was making it highly maneuverable. So, you know, to, to execute the close air support mission, you need to have certain characteristics that enable you to do that effectively. So, you need to be able to fly low altitude. You need to be, have good stability at low airspeeds because you need to be able to battle track of what's going on. And then you need to be highly maneuverable so you can survive. So, it's just, it's a, after coming out of the T-38, the A-10 is just a pure dream to fly. It's got a big, straight,

• 2:05:47Speaker 06

  fat wing that creates a ton of lift. It's very forgiving. Like, you could teach any pilot to fly the A-10.

• 2:05:54Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 2:05:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, just as far as like, flying from A to B, it's just, it's a joy. Yeah, it's great to fly.

• 2:06:00Shawn Ryan?

  So, is everything it was that you had hoped?

• 2:06:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was, it was amazing. I mean, yeah, you're in your early twenties. Especially like where I had come from, you're going, I'm just gonna, I kept genuinely asking myself if it was real. Like, it was almost unbelievable. Uh, and then, it just, yeah, I just ran with it and, um...

• 2:06:23Shawn Ryan?

  Are you the only student there?

• 2:06:26Speaker 06

  No, so now, so there, there, there's five pilot training bases. And so, now you're pulled in with like, say, one or two people from all those bases, and then they'll wait a while to start a class. There's fewer A-10 classes and there are pilot training classes. So, once they get like a dozen students, they'll start your class.

• 2:06:48Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:06:49Speaker 06

  So, yeah, so now I'm with a new, you know, group of friends. And, uh, we're all starting day one in the hog together. And go, and that's a six-month program until you, uh, get done and go to your first fighter squadron.

• 2:07:04Shawn Ryan?

  Another six months?

• 2:07:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:07:08Speaker 06

  So, yeah, it was just, it was incredible. I mean, and it's, again, drinking through the fire hose, you're learning the basic maneuvers, the next thing you knew is you're doing air to air, then you're doing air to ground, then you're doing more complex air to ground, then you're doing everything at night. You know, it's just, it just quickly becomes where all of those skill sets you've acquired, they just have to be rote and muscle memory, and you don't have time to think about it, because now you're employing this airplane as a weapon system, which is a whole nother, another ballgame.

• 2:07:43Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Wow. So, can you go through some of the weapons that are attached to the A-10?

• 2:07:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, so the most popular and the most fun to employ is the 30 millimeter. So, it's a seven-barrel Gatling gun. It's powered by electrical and hydraulics, so it's kind of like a throwback to some, you know, 20th century weapon is what it feels like. It's freaking awesome. Carries 1,174 rounds, and it shoots 70 rounds a second.

• 2:08:17Shawn Ryan?

  70 rounds a second?

• 2:08:19Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:08:20Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit!

• 2:08:22Speaker 06

  Um, there's, uh, you can carry-

• 2:08:25Shawn Ryan?

  What's the math on that? How many rounds? 11?

• 2:08:28Speaker 06

  1,174.

• 2:08:29Shawn Ryan?

  1,174?

• 2:08:31Speaker 06

  The way I think about it-

• 2:08:32Shawn Ryan?

  70 rounds a second, so what's that like, maybe 10 seconds?

• 2:08:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, you don't necessarily employ it like that. You don't just empty the gun.

• 2:08:40Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:08:40Speaker 06

  You just, you get, they call it like a combat burst, so a couple-

• 2:08:44Shawn Ryan?

  How many comes out in a combat burst?

• 2:08:47Speaker 06

  As long as it takes you to say, "Die, call me die."

• 2:08:53Speaker 06

  And that's how, how we trained our students. Like, you- You know, you say engage the uh, there's, there's more that goes into it, but you roll in, acquire the target, line up your uh symbology. So you have a continuously computed aim point. So it's the computers looking at the winds, your airspeed, your attitude, your altitude, the ground, and it's giving you a computerized sight that's going to tell you where those bullets impact. And then you have something called precision attitude control. So you squeeze the trigger halfway and the jet will lock in place to just drive a nail through that point on the ground.

• 2:09:36Shawn Ryan?

  Shit.

• 2:09:37Speaker 06

  So it's for like killing tanks or armor, anything like that. You need to get, reduce, you know, increase bullet density, reduce that dispersion. That allows you to do that. So yeah, you roll in, acquire the target, check your parameters, uh, you know, your dive angle, your airspeed, your altitude, things like that. Engage pack one, make any minor adjustments. Die, commie, die. Release the trigger, see impacts, pull off target, look over your shoulder, assess BDA. It's just awesome.

• 2:10:09Shawn Ryan?

  Die, commie, die, that's gotta be a second, right?

• 2:10:11Speaker 06

  Um, no, I think it's more like three seconds.

• 2:10:14Shawn Ryan?

  Three, oh, you say it's slow.

• 2:10:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:10:19Shawn Ryan?

  So that's like 210 rounds.

• 2:10:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, they, they'd be a good burst, depend on the, depending on the target, yeah.

• 2:10:26Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit. What else?

• 2:10:29Speaker 06

  Um, well, last thing on the bullets is you have uh high explosive incendiary rounds, which basically like little hand grenades that, that uh explode on impact. So anti-personnel, things like that. And then uh we also can carry the armor piercing incendiary, which are the depleted uranium rounds, which can punch holes in armor. So uh load out just depending on the potential targets. So it's, it's pretty, pretty badass weapon.

• 2:10:58Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Wow.

• 2:11:03Shawn Ryan?

  Amazing.

• 2:11:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, everyone loves the gun. So the first day you shoot the gun, it's, it's like.

• 2:11:09Shawn Ryan?

  I love the sound of it.

• 2:11:10Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then the, the smell is probably terrible for you, but the, the cordite.

• 2:11:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:17Speaker 06

  Fills the cockpit and you're just like.

• 2:11:23Speaker 06

  I'll bet, man. Yeah. That brings the memories back. Definitely. Uh, and then it, that what's, what makes the A-10, or has made it so awesome at what it's done is its versatility. So, you know, it's maneuverable, survivable in these types of cast fights. Like, I believe wherever the army can operate, wherever Apaches can operate, the A-10 can operate. Just like the AC-130. Yeah, we're not gonna go in against like triple-digit Sams, but if the infantry's moving, we can be there. So you have an assortment of weapons, um, to help meet the ground commander's intent.

• 2:12:04Speaker 06

  So, I talked about the 11 hard points, and you can pretty much carry any conventional weapon that are, that's in the inventory. So, uh, we carry AIM-9s for defensive purposes, so air-to-air missiles. Usually, typically, depends on where again, but you have some sort of, uh, ECM, so, uh, like an electronic jamming pod, so you can help try to jam radars. And then, uh, you just have an assortment of like 500-pound class bombs. So, like, early in the GWOT, we dropped a lot of GBU-12s, laser-guided bombs. Then, GBU-38s came online, so GPS-guided bombs, 500-pound class again.

• 2:12:47Speaker 06

  And then, on my last deployment, we had, uh, GBU-54s, which are laser and GPS-guided, so they continuously, uh, update with your, what you're lazing. So they just, they just react faster. As far as like the GBU-38s, you like program the bomb, release it, and then it'll hit that target. Is where GBU-54, you're continuously sending it updates even when the bomb is in flight.

• 2:13:16Speaker 06

  And then rockets, you know, Willie Pete's they call them, white phosphorus for marking targets, just get a big white plume, because as an A-10 pilot, you might need to do the forward air controller mission, so you need to get everyone else's eyes on the target area, so you might put down a couple Willie Pete's, and everyone says, yep, contact your smoke, and you can talk them on from there. And then Maverick missiles are always fun, and now they're carrying small diameter bombs, just have a massive bomb range, and we're basically just giant bomb truck for those, can carry a ton of them. So yeah, like, pretty much any conventional weapon in the inventory of the A-10 can carry.

• 2:13:58Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, damn.

• 2:13:59Speaker 06

  So, think about a four-ship of that showing up in a gunfight, you know? It's like, it's a lot of capability.

• 2:14:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. So, you go through six months of the school, you graduate, and then what?

• 2:14:19Speaker 06

  So now, I get assigned to my first fighter squadron, so I go up to Fairbanks, Alaska, and that's, that was my first assignment. Yeah, so, load up everything I own in a short cab F-150, which is pretty awesome to think about, like, I could, yeah, like, just like some clothing, and that's about it. Put it in the back of my truck, and off I go. And I arrive there, and it's like a ghost town, because everybody is in Afghanistan.

• 2:14:58Speaker 06

  And there's one guy left, and he had just gotten back from a deployment, his wife was eight months pregnant, or whatever it was, his name's Gecko, great guy, and he's the only one there, so he's just kinda keeping the lights on in the squadron, and they're welcoming me, so. And he's also an instructor, and when you arrive at your first squadron, you're not fully qualified yet, you have to do a local mission checkout before they finally sign you off and say you're good to go to fly in combat. So they're already downrange and I'm just dying to get down there and join them.

• 2:15:41Speaker 06

  And I talked to the commander and he's like, no, like it's too late. Like just get settled in and you'll get on, get in on the next rotation. And at that time, I'm thinking this thing's gonna be over and I'm gonna miss out. You know, I'm gonna be the like one eight ten guy from this era that has zero combat experience. And so I'm, I'm pretty bummed about that and I'm thinking about what I can do. What year is this? This is early two thousand, so I, early two thousand six. Okay. So I graduated in two thousand five, get there in two thousand six.

• 2:16:21Speaker 06

  So I go through my local checkout with Gecko and everything goes fine. And something happened downrange that I still not completely privy to, but there was, uh, I don't, again, I don't know exactly what happened, but I think somebody screwed something up and got sent home. And morale was low. They had been there a while and it was just kind of a lull in the deployment. Hmm. And I talked to my commander and I had a proposal and I was like, hey, if, uh, if you let me come out, I will bring a giant cooler full of like frozen halibut, salmon.

• 2:17:03Speaker 06

  You know, whatever like I can do to kind of bring some fresh energy to the squadron. We can have a big barbecue and it'll be, it'll be awesome. And he thinks about it and he's, he gets back to me. He's like, okay, let's do it. Like get your butt out here. So, uh, so I get this giant cooler and I fill it up with like all the halibut and salmon I could find, uh, pack it with dry ice. And off I go to Afghanistan. So my, uh,

• 2:17:39Speaker 06

  My first flight in the A-10 that was not on a grade sheet, meaning was not part of an official syllabus, was actually in theater, which was pretty cool. But anyhow, before we even get there, to get to Afghanistan as a single, they call it a singleton by yourself is kind of a chore because, you know, as a squadron goes, they have, you know, airlift, tanker, bring all the people, the pilots fly in, the extra pilots just fly in the airlift, whatever it may be, and you all just arrive and get spun up and start operating.

• 2:18:17Speaker 06

  But all that I did is I had orders to Bagram and I had to figure out how to get there once I got in theater, so. Where were you headed? I was headed to Bagram from Alaska, so. That's where you were going in theater? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was my final destination, so I get to like, I think it was Manus, is that right? So it was like one of the staging bases back in the day, and like everywhere I stop along this way, along this journey, I'm like, I go find the kitchen and like refreeze this giant ass pain that I'm bringing with me now.

• 2:19:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, and like I get stuck midway, like they just didn't have any airlift going in at that time, so I'm like spending all my days at the terminal waiting to get there. And I finally, I finally make it to Bagram and I show up and I'm like, I'm exhausted. Like I haven't slept, I haven't got a good night's sleep since I left, I'm like pale, bloodshot eyes, like, and I just kind of like straggling with my cooler and I'm like, ah, I made it, like, I'm here.

• 2:19:34Speaker 06

  And the guy at the duty desk, a guy named Neo, he looks at me, he's like, "Oh, you're that, you're that new guy?" He's like, "Hey, I got a job for you. We need you to go do a maintenance engine run." And I'm going like, "Well, I've never done that particular check in the A-10. Like, what is it?" And he's like, "Oh, it's, it's easy. Like, you'll be fine. Just follow the checklist." And I'm like, "I'm a former crew chief. I should, should be able to figure it out, right?" And so I hadn't even been in theater like an hour, and I just grabbed my helmet and I walked out to the, to the airplane to go help him out,

• 2:20:17Speaker 06

  do this, this maintenance engine run. And some crew chief walks out of the crew chief shack, and he looks like he's like 12 years old, okay? This guy is super young. And I, and I talked to him, and he's like, "Yeah, I've never done this particular check either." And he's like, "But my NCO told me that I'd be fine if we just run the checklist." So that should have been my red flag to like go in and, and tell him this is not a good idea. But we press on, of course. And so we're working our way through this checklist, which neither of us really understood, okay?

• 2:20:58Speaker 06

  And there comes to this point in the checklist when you test these engine governors, okay? So they have a system in the A-10 where you can throw the fuel flow switches and get excess thrust for an emergency situation. And so what that does is it basically disables the engine temp governors. So it increases the thrust by like 20%, okay? So there's a whole bunch of things you're supposed to do, which I understand now, before you run this check to make sure you're in a safe position and, and nothing bad happens, which we did not do. So we were not, we shouldn't have actually been doing this, come to find out.

• 2:21:42Speaker 06

  So he says, "The next thing to do is like push the throttles up to max."

• 2:21:49Speaker 06

  Then engage the fuel flow switches. They'll snap back into normal range and then bring the throttles to idle. And I'm, and I'm like, that's like an awful lot of thrust here on the ground, just in parking. So I have him read it to me again and we talk about it and I go, okay, I'm gonna do it. And I'm just gonna be really fast. Okay. So like, cause I know this is gonna, this engine temperature is gonna rise rapidly. And as long as I get it quickly, we should, should be fine. I mean, it's in the checklist, right? So, uh, so mind you, I haven't even met the commander in person.

• 2:22:29Speaker 06

  Uh, I had just walked into the squadron and here I am, um, uh, doing this check that I'd never had previously. So I get ready to go, I push the throttles for all the way to max. I'm trying to be slow and deliberate about it and the engine temps just spike faster than I had ever seen. Cause I never pushed the throttles up with that setting and the jet jumps the chocks, slides forward and the crew chief has to like run and dive out of the way. And I almost, like, I almost killed him. Holy shit. And I had been, like I said, I'd been in theater like not at all.

• 2:23:08Speaker 06

  And so now I have to, um, I have to call it to ground control and request taxi back. All the way back to parking and I don't even have a call sign because I wasn't even planning on flying. So I've been in, I've been in theater again. I just got there. I'm making a complete ass of myself. And I'm going, I'm thinking to myself, okay, like he's okay. I didn't hit the aircraft in front of me and I'm getting sent home. Like that's what's going through my mind. I'm getting sent home on day one of this deployment. Holy shit. So anyhow, I request taxi back. I don't have a call sign, so I'm like, uh, what's the tail

• 2:23:49Speaker 06

  number? I'm like, uh, aircraft, uh, zero six nine, request taxi back to parking. And they're like, uh, aircraft zero six nine, where are you at? I'm like, just forward of my parking spot.

• 2:24:06Speaker 06

  Like, everybody's confused. They're like, okay, go ahead. So I whip around, park, and uh, walk back into the squadron and uh, I go back to the duty desk. I'm like, where's the commander? I need to talk to him right now. Like, uh, thankfully, the commander is like, one of the the greatest leaders like I ever had the pleasure to work for in my career. But um, I explained to him what happened and he's just like, like, what are you talking about? And uh, we go out to the flight line and there's this giant, like tire streaks.

• 2:24:45Speaker 06

  And then he's like, he like thinks about it. And he's like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. He's like, you're gonna brief the squadron on what happened, like what went wrong, why were it wrong? And uh, and how to avoid that in the future. So I did that. And then uh, Q-Tip's like, okay, you can fly in theater, but you're flying with me because I'm not too sure about this guy. So anyhow, so I bring that up because um, uh, everyone in, you know, every, every fighter pilot has a call sign, right? So uh, in the movies, a call sign is

• 2:25:25Speaker 06

  something cool, right? Uh, in real life, it's something um, embarrassing. It's something you screwed up. And uh, it's something to make fun of you because that's more fun. So uh, so I got the call sign pork chop. Cause I, I porked up a chop check because that was the, that's what they called that particular check because you chop the throttles back. So then I, you know, for the rest of my next 20 years, the rest of my career, I was uh, known as pork chop for that story.

• 2:25:57Shawn Ryan?

  So did you mess it up or was that was it a

• 2:26:01Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 2:26:01Shawn Ryan?

  They mess up the checklist?

• 2:26:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, it would like there was a variety, like most mishaps, thankfully it wasn't didn't become a mishap. But it's like air on top of air on top of air. And that particular checklist was meant to be run.

• 2:26:18Speaker 06

  One engine at a time while you're on the runway. Preparing for takeoff as a functional check pilot, as a maintenance pilot, which I went on later to do in my career. So I got a.

• 2:26:31Speaker 06

  You know, full scope of what you're supposed to do.

• 2:26:34Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 2:26:34Speaker 06

  But young dumb me, of course, just. Thought we could figure it out. So anyhow, lesson there is if you are asked to do something that you don't really understand. Especially if it involves. Giant airplanes and fuel and weapons. Just don't do it.

• 2:26:55Speaker 06

  We better off saying no.

• 2:26:57Shawn Ryan?

  Welcome to Afghanistan.

• 2:26:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, I legit thought I was getting sent home on day one. Cause if you screw something up in theater, that's the MO they send you home.

• 2:27:06Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:27:09Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. So did you fly that trip?

• 2:27:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I went on to fly. I flew with some amazing pilots. A lot of these guys had experience in the Gulf War.

• 2:27:20Speaker 06

  And I was a wingman at this point, so.

• 2:27:25Speaker 06

  Your role is the wingman is to support your flight lead. And he's closely monitoring you, especially as an experienced flight lead. So, yeah, that that deployment was cool. I caught in the tail end of it and flew on the wing of some of the best pilots in the air force. And got to learn directly from them how to get the job done.

• 2:27:44Shawn Ryan?

  Any combat?

• 2:27:45Speaker 06

  I never shot the gun on that that deployment.

• 2:27:52Speaker 06

  So.

• 2:27:54Speaker 06

  Wingman, his primary role is vis, com, and lastly firepower. So, as my flight lead would employ, I would be in a position to monitor the situation. There's areas where you can't see underneath your aircraft. So, you develop tactics to where, when he exposes himself, so to speak, you are in position to monitor those threat areas and then call out anyone shooting at him. So, I was able to just, again, be in position to monitor and observe and learn, really, is what I was doing.

• 2:28:28Shawn Ryan?

  Who were you working with the most?

• 2:28:31Speaker 06

  Like, on the ground?

• 2:28:32Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:28:33Speaker 06

  You know, it was, it was, in oh-six, it was a variety of places. I would say, for the most part, we were working up near the border, over, like, we called it Nixon's nose on the map, but, um, I'm trying to blank on the region, but just up by the Pakistan border, where all the foreign fighters were starting to flow in.

• 2:28:55Shawn Ryan?

  Coast?

• 2:28:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, definitely up in there. And it, um, it was much less of, uh, I got to see it as a part of, kind of, getting oriented in the airspace, but we weren't going to, like, southern Afghanistan nearly that much in that deployment.

• 2:29:14Shawn Ryan?

  Did the flight lead get any combat?

• 2:29:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, I got to, I got to support, uh, support some shooters.

• 2:29:22Shawn Ryan?

  What units were you working with the most?

• 2:29:24Speaker 06

  Um, I'm not sure. Are you talking about, like, the ground units?

• 2:29:27Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you were working with SEALs, Green Berets.

• 2:29:29Speaker 06

  So, you, the way, on that deployment, I worked with conventional forces.

• 2:29:34Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:29:34Speaker 06

  Mainly, and so, um, um, the way that it worked was, is like, an inexperienced guy, you're most likely gonna fly for me in the day, and, um, you're gonna just support, they call it, like, ex-cas. A lot of times, it would be, just go look for, like, you know... Uh, scan routes, whatever it may be.

• 2:29:59Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:30:00Speaker 06

  Look for like mortar emplacements.

• 2:30:03Shawn Ryan?

  So you're kind of picking fights.

• 2:30:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:30:05Shawn Ryan?

  Not really a fight, but you're taking people out.

• 2:30:07Speaker 06

  You're basically, well.

• 2:30:08Shawn Ryan?

  Like reconnaissance?

• 2:30:09Speaker 06

  You're waiting, you're just airborne to wait to respond to troops in contact.

• 2:30:15Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:30:16Speaker 06

  So, like that, and that deployment was the first time that I get the call, you know, like you hear the mic key on the radio. You hear the kind of scared voice, you hear the gunfire. And then you realize like, oh damn, like this is what we're trained to do, you know? So it was a lot of conventional forces. Uh, again, I didn't fly at night on that, uh, deployment, but just like, hey, this convoy's being engaged from this hillside or whatever, and they're, um, stuck here or whatever, and they're shooting it out and go try to find and fix and target that enemy position. So a lot of stuff like that.

• 2:31:00Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's talk about, what's, I mean, what did it feel like for you being on your first real world mission, operation?

• 2:31:09Speaker 06

  Again, it's just another thing of like, this is, uh, I can't believe this is happening, you know? You're like seeing Roberts Ridge, you know, you're seeing, uh, Torbora, you're seeing all these places, you know, so now we're, you know, several years after nine 11, and then you're seeing it with your own eyes.

• 2:31:31Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 2:31:31Speaker 06

  You know, and you're, you know, you're doing what you've been trained to do, which is support the guys on the ground. So it felt really good to, um,

• 2:31:41Speaker 06

  you know, you could help them break contact just by your presence. So they're in a gunfight, they may even be taking casualties, and you show up and they break contact because you're there and they're able to get them out, you know? Or you're able to provide cover for Kazevak or whatever needs to be done, so. You know, and you just start realizing the reality of the situation too. You see the, uh, losses, having the ramp ceremonies. Um, you know, the base getting targeted, uh, with indirect fire and you're just like.

• 2:32:16Speaker 06

  Wow, like this is actually happening. It's not just something that been training for, we're actually doing it. And I actually, I love being deployed. Because, you know, no paperwork, no grade sheets. The briefs were very truncated, you know, they kept them short and sweet, all about what you were going to do that day. And it was just all about flying.

• 2:32:40Shawn Ryan?

  Are you guys up there every day?

• 2:32:43Speaker 06

  As a pilot, so, uh, no, you're not up there every day, maybe every other day. And it just really depends on your role in the squadron. So like every pilot has an extra duty. So like as a new wingman, I'm working in the mission planning cell. So I'm building all the products for when I'm not flying, I'm building all the products for people who are flying. So they can wake up, show up. You've got their DTC, which is just like a cartridge with all their different points of interest. You can upload that information into your, your system. So you're getting all everything ready for their mission, you're getting their mission data cards ready. Uh, their fuel plan and just everything all dialed in. So when the pilots show up,

• 2:33:27Speaker 06

  just hand them all their stuff. So all they have to do is kind of look it over, talk to their wingman about what they're doing that day and then go fly. So.

• 2:33:34Shawn Ryan?

  Is there different, uh, how do I say this? Is there, is there, are there A-10 pilots that are

• 2:33:44Shawn Ryan?

  attached to conventional units and A-10 pilots that are attached to SOCOM and A-10, A-10 pilots attached to JSOC and?

• 2:33:53Speaker 06

  Like for the, yeah, not, um,

• 2:33:57Speaker 06

  and it changed throughout as the war went on. So, um, on that first deployment, there were like the most experienced pilots, kind of like our weapons officers and some of their hand-selected guys that were also like instructors or four ship flight leads, like very experienced. And they flew like all the night missions.

• 2:34:20Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 2:34:21Speaker 06

  Like, you know, all the pre-planned, um, supports for the raids and things like that.

• 2:34:26Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:34:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. And then, um, and then everybody else just flew the line.

• 2:34:35Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, so one's kind of like, would I be correct if I said one is kind of like a loitering?

• 2:34:43Shawn Ryan?

  Like a lo- like, like, there's conventional units out and you're just loitering, waiting for something, waiting for a need?

• 2:34:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, you, exactly. You're trying to be proactive. And you've got to find those threats, but you're essentially there to respond to anyone who takes contact in theater.

• 2:35:01Shawn Ryan?

  And then for the other guys?

• 2:35:02Speaker 06

  Then they would like-

• 2:35:04Shawn Ryan?

  They're in the, they're in this, in the, they're in the, like, a, uh, a SEAL task units briefing.

• 2:35:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, so that's how it was, uh, early in the war, so, um, and then they would basically brief up like the entire op, you know, and be a part of it. And there would be, like, specific guys assigned to that-

• 2:35:27Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:35:27Speaker 06

  -role that were, like I said, very experienced. But then, like, when I was there in 2014, um, there was, it had changed quite a bit, and it was like, "Hey, if you're combat-ready and you're on the, you know, your mission overlaps, with your, with this mission, you're flying that." So, it was a, kind of a different, everyone was prepared for it, because by that time, the squadrons had evolved, kind of meet the needs downrange.

• 2:35:55Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 2:35:56Speaker 06

  So then, um, if you're a fully qualified combat-ready wingman, you need to be ready for that mission. So it would be, uh, whoever was scheduled at that time would be a part of that mission.

• 2:36:09Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. Interesting, interesting. So you took, so what happened after that deployment?

• 2:36:17Speaker 06

  Uh, so go back to, uh, Alson Air Force Base in Fairbanks, and, uh, just go back to, like, life of a normal A-10 pilot, which is just training, essentially. So, go into Flags and, uh, Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, uh, lots of, lots of travel, and just some of the best flying I ever had in my life. I mean, like, the airspace in Alaska is just unbelievable. You're, you know, I, it was, it was really, um, really pretty wild, because now I've got, you know, some more experience under my belt. I'm flying without, uh,

• 2:36:56Speaker 06

  this, that immediate oversight. I get my forward air controller qualification quickly after that deployment. So, I mean, it was, it was incredible. Uh, so forward air controller is, um- It's another qualification for an A-10 pilot. So what that mission is, is are you familiar with like a JTAC?

• 2:37:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:18Speaker 06

  Like a or TacP or whatever.

• 2:37:20Shawn Ryan?

  So you guys go through a JTAC course?

• 2:37:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, so you become qualified to give clearance to release ordnance from the air.

• 2:37:29Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:37:30Speaker 06

  So, and this goes way back, you know, they really developed this during Vietnam with like the OV-10s and then the F-100 Fast Facts. But so, yeah, you're you're going out there checking in with the guys on the ground, getting everything sorted, finding the targets, building the nine lines, then bringing in support fighters, and you're flying this single ship, a lot of the times, maybe a wingman.

• 2:37:59Speaker 06

  And then getting their eyes on and flown them in, getting them to destroy the targets and then flow out. And so you can just orchestrate this giant symphony of destruction.

• 2:38:11Shawn Ryan?

  Would you, real quick, because there's going to be a lot of people in the audience that don't know what a JTAC or a TacP is, could you describe that?

• 2:38:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, so they're like Air Force guys who are embedded with Army units and they are the air experts. So what they do is they kind of provide that common language between the guys on the ground and the guys in the air. And so they're supposed to be competent in both worlds so they can get your eyes on target and give you clearance to release ordnance in the ground commander's battle space. So does that, does that make sense?

• 2:38:53Shawn Ryan?

  Makes perfect sense. It's a.

• 2:38:55Speaker 06

  For the.

• 2:38:56Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, it's a more like with us in a SEAL team, it would be a SEAL that's that's a communicator that's trained to talk to you guys, you know, and.

• 2:39:09Shawn Ryan?

  I guess they know. I didn't go to JTAC or TacP or anything, but.

• 2:39:12Speaker 06

  I employed for a SEAL JTAC once and like I, I was like blown away by those guys. This is a.

• 2:39:20Shawn Ryan?

  In a good way or a bad way?

• 2:39:22Speaker 06

  No, it was good. Like the guy stood out to me. Is there in this like running gunfight? And he sent me a perfect nine line, like he was like shooting with one hand and talking on the radio and running. And, and sent me a nine line.

• 2:39:37Shawn Ryan?

  Damn. Could you see it happening?

• 2:39:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was watching him.

• 2:39:40Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's crazy.

• 2:39:41Speaker 06

  This guy is a badass.

• 2:39:43Shawn Ryan?

  What was that up?

• 2:39:45Speaker 06

  I don't remember. Like, so a lot of, a lot of our, um, a lot of our like engagements there. It's, it's so different than when you hear them tell the stories of the ground ops where it's like, it's like build up. And then, um, and then execution and then this or that goes wrong. And then, uh, they make it back and then the debrief or whatever it is. Uh, a lot of ours is just, we're out there flying X-CAS. And there's multiple. Oh, sorry. Uh, like alert for close air support, meaning you're just, you don't have any specific tasking.

• 2:40:21Shawn Ryan?

  You're loitering.

• 2:40:22Speaker 06

  You're loitering. You're waiting for something to happen and then you get the call and you just go to it. So I might not know the full depth of, of the operation.

• 2:40:32Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 2:40:33Speaker 06

  I just know that this team is in a running gunfight and they want some 30 millimeter. On that enemy like PKM position, you know? So that, that's what a lot of our engagements looked like.

• 2:40:45Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Very interesting. Man, I'm sorry. I lost where we're, we're back home, Farah Banks.

• 2:40:54Speaker 06

  Yeah. So it was just one of the best times of my life. So I'm like, I'm just flying my ass off. I think I, look at my logbook. I have some months where I was getting like 21 sorties in a month, which is flying almost every day.

• 2:41:09Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 2:41:10Speaker 06

  So I'm just, I'm just flying my ass off. I'm getting much better. Uh, you know, the job of being an A-10 pilot, great friends, um. Just like seeing the most amazing sights, like flying in the Alaska range. The, I mean.

• 2:41:26Shawn Ryan?

  That's gotta be incredible.

• 2:41:27Speaker 06

  It was so cool. We had this giant map of the entire state of Alaska. And if you ever saw like a herd of like caribou, uh, you know, you go plot it on the map and put the date. So you just had like, um, just had the entire state like dialed in, you know, you're like.

• 2:41:43Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, that's cool.

• 2:41:44Speaker 06

  It was awesome. It, you know, there's like, they always say, there's nothing like your first fighter squadron. There's, you'll, there is something about being brand new and that first exposure to this new world. And, uh, it, and it, it lived up to everything I had hoped for.

• 2:42:01Shawn Ryan?

  Where do you go from here?

• 2:42:03Speaker 06

  So from there, I went to Korea.

• 2:42:06Shawn Ryan?

  Korea?

• 2:42:07Speaker 06

  Korea, yep.

• 2:42:08Shawn Ryan?

  Why did you go to Korea?

• 2:42:10Speaker 06

  Um, there's a permanent base, uh, of permanently assigned squadron of A-10s at Osan Air Base. So it's just a one-year tour and, um, and, uh, it's just normal part of an A-10 pilot progression. You know, just go bang out of your Korea.

• 2:42:31Shawn Ryan?

  And from there?

• 2:42:32Speaker 06

  And then from Korea?

• 2:42:33Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:34Speaker 06

  Oh, well, uh, there's some noteworthy in Korea.

• 2:42:38Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, is there?

• 2:42:38Speaker 06

  Well, a little bit. I mean, so Korea is like, um.

• 2:42:42Shawn Ryan?

  Sorry, I meant, I, I, you made it kinda sound like a, like a.

• 2:42:46Speaker 06

  Just fly through Korea.

• 2:42:48Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, like, uh, some type of career development, just to check.

• 2:42:51Speaker 06

  No, I was flying out there.

• 2:42:53Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:42:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:42:54Shawn Ryan?

  I'm sorry.

• 2:42:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, no worries. It is just, there's like five active duty A-10 squadrons at the time. One of them was Korea.

• 2:43:01Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:43:02Speaker 06

  If you wanna stay in the jet, you gotta volunteer for Korea. So like, people enjoy it, but it's not like a choice assignment. So you finish up a normal, you know, like Alaska, some stateside. Go do a year of Korea and then come back to the community, something else. But anyhow, so I do a year out at, uh, Osan and, um, I'm again, I'm, um, uh, now like a first lieutenant. And I'm flying like, flying like crazy. And this is when I first started having like back and neck issues. From, uh, a lot of from wrestling and training hard and skateboarding and all that stuff. It's, it's like, I always had.

• 2:43:45Speaker 06

  Like issues even before I uh join the military.

• 2:43:50Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:50Speaker 06

  And then it's just like all these sorties with all these gear. I'm starting to like have these symptoms that I'm trying to deal with.

• 2:43:59Shawn Ryan?

  Before, before you, can you just get in? Cause I, that's something I'd never thought of when you were, when we were talking at breakfast this morning is the, the,

• 2:44:09Shawn Ryan?

  like the physical stuff that you guys deal with inside that cockpit. I had, I mean, I had no idea.

• 2:44:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, so um, you know, the human body is very resilient and it adapts to a lot of different stressors. But you know, we've, you know, we're basically built to like run, jump, lift, hinge, press. There's all these movements that the human body is designed to do. Something it's not designed to do is just be smushed over and over again, you know, year after year. So uh, most every fighter pilot ends up with some, you know, back and neck issues if they've been in the jet for a period of time. So um, I had some neck and back issues before I joined even.

• 2:44:55Speaker 06

  They were nothing to speak of, but it would just be like, oh, I threw my back out and missed a tournament or whatever it may be. But now, you know, you're wearing the helmet.

• 2:45:06Speaker 06

  Later you're wearing the helmet mounted cueing system, which it has these electronics and a monocle over your eye. So you can see things on the data link when you look over the rail and down on the ground. But all this adds weight to the helmet. You know, you have a visor at night, you have the night vision goggles and all the brackets and stuff that go for those attachments. So you're adding a lot of weight to, to your nugget, you know? And then now the demands of flying is you're constantly uh, under G. So you're um, You know, say you're, I don't know what it weighs, but say your 10-pound helmet under 7Gs now weighs 70 pounds.

• 2:45:45Speaker 03

  Shit.

• 2:45:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, and if you're flying 20 sorties a month, um, and you've already have back and neck issues and now you're pulling, you know, hard on the aircraft off-target over and over again, you're looking behind you so you're you're twisted and then you're being compressed, it's just, it's gonna bring out any issues there, so, um, the short of my career assignment is I'm, uh, trucking along, flying, um, flying non-stop there, there's exercises and I'm having a great time, but I'm starting to get like numbness in my hands, starting to kind of lock up, and like the number one rule of fighter pilots is you never talk to a flight doctor, you know, because you don't want to lose your flight status.

• 2:46:30Speaker 06

  So I'm anyhow, so that assignment, um, I'm like halfway through and one morning I'm getting ready to fly, I go to tie my boot and I'm literally just stuck in position, I'm like, I'm completely locked up, I can't move, um, and I'm like, I can't, I can't fly today, so, pull myself off the schedule, uh, talk to the commander and he's like, he's like, Ben, you're gonna have to get this checked out, so, uh, go to a flight doc, get a scan, and they're like, oh yeah, you've got like terrible degenerative discs and you've got all these issues and, uh, I think at that time he said something about if I eject,

• 2:47:13Speaker 06

  it's gonna cause all these problems, so, um, that basically, right there, was grounded from flying the hog.

• 2:47:22Speaker 03

  Shit.

• 2:47:23Speaker 06

  About halfway through that assignment. So, now I'm sitting there going, okay, I, you know, was doing exactly what I wanted to do and now I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to fly an ejection seat aircraft again.

• 2:47:40Speaker 06

  So.

• 2:47:40Shawn Ryan?

  That had to be pretty devastating.

• 2:47:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, I talk about going from a high to a low, you know?

• 2:47:46Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:46Speaker 06

  And you're like, what's, what am I gonna go be like a logistics officer?

• 2:47:50Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:51Speaker 06

  I still have a 10-year pilot training commitment and I'm like, I don't know, four years into it or whatever it was. And so, yeah, I just went from where I felt like the ultimate high being on just, you know, you start to build up your, um, so many things came down to luck and timing. But up to that point, everything had worked out exactly as I had hoped. So you just start to think that that's how the, the world is just gonna bend to your favor on everything. And then all of a sudden, it's just all, it's all gone, you know, so. Um, so then I had a choice is to, uh, they're like, this is not gonna be a short-term thing.

• 2:48:34Speaker 06

  So, um, you're not permanently disqualified, but you're disqualified for now from flying fighter aircraft, basically anything with an ejection seat. So they're like, you gotta figure out, uh, what you wanna do. And, um, at that time, they, um, needed people to go fly like small ISR aircraft for, uh, AFSoC, so Air Force Special Operations Command. Um, but I was told if you do that, you will never come back to the A-10. Because, uh, it's a different major command and it's a one-way street. You're not gonna go to AFSoC and then come back to Air Combat Command.

• 2:49:18Speaker 06

  It just doesn't work that way. And so alternatively, they said you can take this assignment to Vegas, flying the MQ-9, uh, doing the unmanned stuff. So.

• 2:49:32Shawn Ryan?

  Is that the Predator?

• 2:49:33Speaker 06

  Uh, the Reaper. So the follow-on to the Predator. So, uh, that's what I chose to do. So, um, finished up my year in Korea.

• 2:49:43Shawn Ryan?

  So that's not AFSoC or that?

• 2:49:46Speaker 06

  They have, uh, I'll just, um, I'll leave it at there are multiple, you know, MagComs that fly these airplanes. And so, uh, I flew Air Combat Command MQ-9s, essentially doing, um, the same mission I was doing in the A-10. But instead of.

• 2:50:10Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know who you were flying for?

• 2:50:12Speaker 06

  I was, I mean, we could get into it. I was flying for pretty much anything that was going on in Afghanistan for four years.

• 2:50:20Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 2:50:21Speaker 06

  Six days a week. Twelve to fourteen hours a day. No, no, I didn't. I was flying for, I was doing uh, air force missions, so.

• 2:50:31Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, good.

• 2:50:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, so um.

• 2:50:33Shawn Ryan?

  Does the agency have their own? Do you not want to talk about this?

• 2:50:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't.

• 2:50:39Shawn Ryan?

  I watched a lot of Kill TV at the agency. I wonder if you were in the control room.

• 2:50:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, um.

• 2:50:48Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe, maybe not, huh? Glad for that.

• 2:50:52Speaker 06

  So, yeah, I, it's just, it's funny, I described this like, they're like, what was it like to go from the A-10 to the MQ-9? And uh, I was like, well, like, one, it was devastating, and two, uh, was what I realized was, um, it was a lot, it was very similar. Just strip away everything that I liked about flying and being an air force officer and pilot, so you don't get to fly. You don't get to shoot the gun. You don't get to smell the gun gas in the cockpit. Uh, all your former friends

• 2:51:34Speaker 06

  treat you like you have some communicable disease because they don't want to catch whatever you had. For whatever, you know, fate or whatever, however you ended up, uh, you know, here flying these unmanned aircraft. Because at that time, they were severely undermanned, and they were just randomly grabbing people from all over the air force and sending them there. So, yeah, it was just like, it was pretty, it was like, at first, it was very devastating, miserable, um.

• 2:52:06Speaker 06

  And then I kind of.

• 2:52:07Shawn Ryan?

  So is it the, is it that the adrenaline's gone?

• 2:52:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:52:11Shawn Ryan?

  Is that what it is?

• 2:52:12Speaker 06

  And it, you like, when you are flying the A-10, like, just stepping out the aircraft, out to the aircraft, like, you've got the helmet bag over your shoulder. You see the jets, the, the sun's beating on your skin, like, you, like, and then you're, you're in the airplane, the canopy's up, you're, you're just looking around as you taxi out and get ready to fly, like, you just feel like a badass.

• 2:52:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:38Speaker 06

  You feel like King Kong. And you're just, you're, you know, in theory, you're hoping to, there's a gunfight so you can show up and just wreck shop, right? Like, that's the mentality.

• 2:52:48Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:52:49Speaker 06

  And then you go from that to, it's like the opposite species. Now you're like this cave dweller that lives underground. You know? It's like dark and you're staring at computer screens and, there's nothing cool about it, there's nothing fun, there's nothing glorious or glamorous, like, it's just work, you know?

• 2:53:12Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:12Speaker 06

  It's just stripped away everything that I enjoyed about flying. And you still have the tasks, but that's it.

• 2:53:20Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 2:53:21Speaker 06

  But, you know, I quickly realized, like, so in the A-10 community we talk about, it's all about the guy on the ground. It's all about the guy on the ground, like, it's not about you, it's about the guy on the ground. And I realized that this was an opportunity to prove to myself that I actually believed in that. Because at that point, it's not about you at all. And, but you, I was like, I still have this, this tool and I'm still in the same stack. I was talking to my buddies on the radio. I was hearing some of the, you know, all the same call signs.

• 2:53:58Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:53:59Speaker 06

  From when I was in theater. And just now, I'm, um, controlling this aircraft remotely from Vegas.

• 2:54:09Speaker 06

  You know, so.

• 2:54:09Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:10Speaker 06

  Um, and then you you learn a lot about insurgency because, you know, as an A-10 guy, say you go deploy, deployment started at four months and they went up to six months. Say you do one of those every three years, you're probably gonna have an instructor duty, staff duty, something like that. So you might do a couple of those throughout your career. Well, now I'm in theater six days a week in my brain, uh, 12 hours a day for four years. You know what I mean? So you you get really good at, um, actually carrying out that mission of protecting the guys on the ground.

• 2:54:53Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's interesting because, um, not to inject myself here, but I wanted to have this discussion with you because when I was in the, I left the SEAL teams in 2006. I did one enlistment for a short pump. But, um, our JTACs were always, because that was right around the time where drones were coming online, uh, more and more, at least from my perspective. But there was always a lot of discussion about having A-10s, Apaches, and and and our guys would go meet the Apaches and meet you guys before an operation and

• 2:55:37Shawn Ryan?

  get that face-to-face, uh, kind of personal relationship building. And then as the war went on and more and more drones came online, it was, there was always a big fear like, we don't have, we don't have that personal relationship where it's where we just met Dale, you know, and he knows like, oh, fuck, that's Sean and his team on the ground down there that are getting. The shit knocked out of them, you know, and, and when it came to drones, it was, we lost the personal touch, you know, and, and I mean, what did you, what were your feelings like as a pilot about that?

• 2:56:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was really a mixed bag at the time because it became like, we called it the land of the broken toys. So, you know, you might, as your SEAL team, you might get a guy who was, six months ago, an A-10 forward air controller that can speak your language, can control the stack, is gonna make this very easy for you. In fact, I might even build you the nine line, you can read back to me, you know what I mean?

• 2:56:50Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:56:51Speaker 06

  But, on the flip side, you might get a guy who has been flying the AWACS for ten years, who never upgraded to aircraft commander because they weren't quite sure of his capabilities. They didn't know what to do with them, so they're like, hey, let's, let's send them to, uh, let's send them to this unmanned community. And they just needed so many people, I mean, they were sending, um, they would just send out a requirement to fighter squadrons and just say, "You will send us three pilots on this next VML," or even right now, because

• 2:57:32Speaker 06

  it was such a high demand asset. So, everybody was just throwing bodies at this program. And yeah, so the, the product at that time especially was just varied widely. And so, what I felt like my responsibility was, was to do everything in my power to ensure that myself and everybody around me, so my squadron, um, was as capable as possible. And we didn't lose track, you know, try to kind of instill that same mindset of like, hey, this isn't about us. Like, if you find that IED emplacer...

• 2:58:12Speaker 06

  Before the convoy gets there, that's everyone in that MRAP going home to their family instead of just ending up, you know, in a pile of frag on the side of the road. So just trying to get that mindset to people that never really wanted to be

• 2:58:32Shawn Ryan?

  It's gotta be tough.

• 2:58:34Speaker 06

  It was, it was very tough.

• 2:58:36Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it's even for you, it's gotta be tough to realize the, the, I don't know, the complexity of the situation, being able to visualize it out of your cockpit and see, see what's happening on the ground versus, I mean, it sounds like

• 2:58:54Speaker 06

  You're looking through the soda straw.

• 2:58:56Shawn Ryan?

  Sounds like Call of Duty at, at the unmanned. I mean, it's, it's gotta be hard to visualize and have a personal connection and realize like, those are fucking lives down there. Those little, I mean, white

• 2:59:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:59:12Shawn Ryan?

  Figures that are moving around. Those are, those are our people. And I mean, is it, is it, is it, it's gotta be weird, right?

• 2:59:20Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, it would, there's so many weird aspects to it of modern war, you know, like being engaged in a firefight, you know, your brain is there.

• 2:59:33Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:59:34Speaker 06

  Your body is in a freaking shipping container in the desert. You're done. And then 15 minutes later, you're home with your wife.

• 2:59:42Shawn Ryan?

  Do you, do you, uh, do you realize that the stakes are as high as they are when you're flying an unmanned?

• 2:59:49Speaker 06

  I never forgot that. And I, I, and we'll talk about getting back to the A-10, which, um, when I left the A-10, they said, you'll have a chance of getting back. This is, because every A-10 pilot has to do a career broadening assignment. And they're like, this is your, they call it Alpha Tour. They're like, this is your Alpha Tour and you are welcome back to the community. So we're not ejecting you from the community, which can happen, you know?

• 3:00:18Speaker 06

  But then when I got there, the commander's like, hey, guys, like, I know, um, they didn't lie, but the truth changed, is what we were told. I remember that line specifically. He said, now you're one of us, like, get comfortable here. This is your new major weapon system. So, Portchop, you are not a 10 pilot, you're now an MQ-9 pilot, and that's just a fact. So, you know, you can cry about it, but get over it, and we got a job to do. So, they, they told us we would not go back. This is a new, they're not treating it like extra duty. This is a new platform, and it will need, like, permanent party. And that's, that's

• 3:01:03Speaker 06

  what they told us when we got there. So, now I'm sitting there going, okay, like, I'm, I'm done, you know, like, I'm never getting back to the hog. And I'm looking at my commitment going, okay, I've got like, five years left, or whatever it was, and going, okay, I'm just gonna finish out and, and separate at the end of that time. But, yeah, it was kind of devastating in that regard. Um, but when it came to executing the mission, um, I, I, I just felt like I needed to throw myself into this job, because, um, there are like, countless Americans at harm's way. And if, if we do our job well, if I train

• 3:01:45Speaker 06

  the people around me, so they like, almost immediately make me like, an instructor pilot, an evaluator pilot, a flight commander. So, they're like, we need leadership here, we need some supervision. And anyone with any tactical background, uh, can, needs to step up and fill that role. So, um-

• 3:02:06Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, that's a big responsibility.

• 3:02:08Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, now you're like, a young captain, and, um, and you're just, I mean, you're, there are a lot of weapons getting sent down range by people who are not fighter pilots, who are not training to do this, uh, in making that top cut every step of the way. It's, it's just everybody. And they might not even want to be there. Um- And uh, but you know what, like I said, it's, they're still Americans in harm's way. And what, and this is not the tool I'd prefer to be doing the job in, I'd rather be in my hog, but this is what they've given me. And if this is uh, you know, this is what I, this is what I have, I'm gonna use it to the best of my, my ability.

• 3:02:51Speaker 06

  And I did that, you know, I went there and I um, I, I basically, all I did at that assignment was just work and sleep. We were severely undermanned, undermanned on the leadership side. And I just flew or sat uh, operations supervisor for nearly four years straight, six days a week.

• 3:03:12Shawn Ryan?

  So was this, was flying an unmanned aircraft your first engagement with an enemy combatant?

• 3:03:20Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 3:03:21Shawn Ryan?

  What, I mean, can you just, can you describe your first engagement?

• 3:03:26Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:03:27Shawn Ryan?

  First kill?

• 3:03:28Speaker 06

  So um, we got rolled to a tick, so like I was saying, it looked very similar to um, uh, the missions that we were doing downrange in the A-10. It was just another capability, you know what I mean? Like, it was just another option, so there's only, the A-10s could only go so far. And so I'm air force flying, air force missions, you're just another asset that's available. So I'm doing similar things, we're like, route scanning, this and that. We get rolled to a tick.

• 3:03:58Shawn Ryan?

  A tick is a troops in contact?

• 3:04:00Speaker 06

  Sorry, troops in contact, so we get, there's a gunfight. And we were the closest asset and they send us over there. And uh, they give us general, you know, do all the things you do in the hog. It's just now you're remotely connected, but you're still on the radio and now you're looking through a soda straw of the targeting pod, uh, instead of looking over the rail and having a targeting pod. So uh, just a different asset altogether, but uh, really, at the end of the day, you're servicing targets for Americans, so um. So that's what we did. So we get rolled two troops in contact. There was like a machine gun position where they're getting shot from and it gives general coordinates of where it's

• 3:04:44Speaker 06

  coming from and we start scanning.

• 3:04:46Shawn Ryan?

  Who's we?

• 3:04:47Speaker 06

  Uh, so this is now a two-person aircraft, okay? So you have a sensor operator that sits next to you. So in the A-10, I'm, I'm my own sensor operator, right? I've controlled the targeting pod. Now, I fly the airplane, I control the weapon systems, and the sensor operator controls the, uh, the sensor, or the targeting pod, if you will. So, we, you know, now, so now, instead of, and it's insanely frustrating because I would rather do it myself, and you're going, "Okay, look here, look there, look there," and you know, and the more experienced they get, there's some of them were awesome and they would do what you wanted to do before you could even say it out loud. But yeah, so they just, you

• 3:05:29Speaker 06

  get to that general area, you start searching, and then next thing you know, you find, uh, you know, a couple guys, there was one PKM, I still remember the image, there's two guys, and they're, uh, they're just like shooting at the friendlies. Uh, you know, they're laying in a prone position. So we get a nine-line, um, select GBU-12, and roll in, and, uh, put a GBU-12 right on the target.

• 3:05:58Shawn Ryan?

  Damn. What's a GBU-12?

• 3:06:00Speaker 06

  Uh, 500-pound laser-got-a-bomb.

• 3:06:04Shawn Ryan?

  Did you get any satisfaction out of that?

• 3:06:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I got, it's like, it's mixed feelings. It's like, I got satisfaction knowing that, uh, our guys made it home. Like, so I didn't have any kind of moral qualms with it. Um, if, it's, I would much rather physically be there because it feels kind of like, there's a part of you, like, there's, there's, you know, killing at a distance has been, um...

• 3:06:38Speaker 06

  It's been a feature of warfare since the beginning of time. Since someone figured out you could throw a rocket at somebody, right? Then spears, then, you know, archers. Mm-hmm. You know, automatic weapons, all the way to, you know, aircraft and then drones. So it's just, it's just an advancement in warfare. But, yeah, you feel kind of like a coward, like taking life, sitting thousands of miles away.

• 3:07:07Speaker 06

  I never thought about that. I didn't, I didn't. At the time, and how I kind of framed it to my, to my people, you know, and to myself was, hey, we've got a choice to make. This is not morally ambiguous because these guys are fighting each other. And they're actively engaged against Americans. And it's them or it's our guys. So that's an easy choice for me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure those Americans come home safe. So again, I try to frame it like, it's not about us. It's about the guys on the ground.

• 3:07:51Speaker 06

  And, you know, in doing so, we became very effective. Like, I look back on that four years, and it was probably the most important four years of my entire career because the, the number of threats that we neutralized was just, it's uncountable. I mean, things that people never even knew about, like. You've killed that many people? I'm saying just the whole squadron, you know? But I wouldn't even begin to count. Wow. But you're just, I mean, four years straight, six days a week.

• 3:08:30Shawn Ryan?

  Are you killing like every day?

• 3:08:33Speaker 06

  No, you might, you might go months or month without nothing with, you know, there's, there's fighting season. There's, it's might be quiet for a long period of time.

• 3:08:43Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 3:08:44Speaker 06

  But, um, it ebbs and flows, you know, with like, who's the commander? Like, remember the surge in like two thousand, uh, was it when, uh, Petraeus took over from McChrystal? They brought in all the Marines into South Afghanistan.

• 3:09:01Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:01Speaker 06

  Like it was just nonstop then, you know, but then it quieted down again after that.

• 3:09:07Shawn Ryan?

  Were you flying then?

• 3:09:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:09:11Speaker 06

  Every day.

• 3:09:13Shawn Ryan?

  You may have.

• 3:09:15Speaker 06

  I'm sure there's tons of overlap.

• 3:09:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. We got, uh,

• 3:09:24Shawn Ryan?

  overrun in a safe house in Lashkargah. And there was like, I can't remember, like a hundred Taliban fighters on the other side of the river, deserving any bills at all.

• 3:09:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:09:37Shawn Ryan?

  Right on.

• 3:09:40Speaker 06

  It was, it was gnarly, like, if you, I mean, if you.

• 3:09:46Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's fucking crazy, man.

• 3:09:48Speaker 06

  It's a small world.

• 3:09:49Shawn Ryan?

  Does that, I mean,

• 3:09:52Shawn Ryan?

  can you talk about some more of these missions? Let's talk about maybe anything that sticks out.

• 3:09:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, you see some dark shit, you know, like one, um, actually we'll talk about a mission supporting Marines in Southern Afghanistan during the surge. You know, I'm flying the, uh, the MQ nine, we get rolled two troops in contact. And, um, this is, you know, it's, it's kind of rural down there, but there's a lot of development, you know?

• 3:10:26Speaker 06

  And, uh, I find the, um, the enemy shooting the Marines. And again, they've got an automatic weapon and they're just at the side. Uh, there's eight guys and they're just at a s- the side of this, um.

• 3:10:44Speaker 06

  It's like this compound, you know, all those little, everyone has a house and then this big mud fence around it. So they're on the outside of this big mud fence and they're just kinda like, they'd have like one guy leaning around the corner, just wailing at the Marines. So I, I, I see that and, um, and they're taking pretty effective fire, like, we need to service this target now. So, uh, get a nine line, decide to put a hellfire missile on it. And swing around so it's like parallel to, uh, this wall. Put the hellfire right down at the very, like, first point on that wall where the first

• 3:11:29Speaker 06

  person was. And then all of the, um, uh, frag of that missile kinda bounces off the wall, does this like vortex and just fires down the wall. Dust settles and, uh, is this is daytime mission, we switch over to like the daytime camera and it's just like, the guns go quiet, so it was just them shooting at the Marines. And it's just like a freaking pile of body parts. Okay, and that's, you know, if you've seen war, it's like, it's not something completely uncommon. But, um, afterwards, uh, it's kinda quiet, you know, and then, um, I see this figure

• 3:12:11Speaker 06

  come out of the adjacent building and it looks like an old lady. She has like a walking stick and she's, you can kinda see her hunched over. And she leaves the house, leaves the compound and she's just moving all the parts around. And I'm thinking, uh, she's probably looking to see, uh, if there's any, anyone alive. That's what I, that was my best guess, seeing, uh, what was going on. And, uh, you know, nothing, nothing happened to her. She, the Marines eventually sent a team out to go do, uh, battle damage assessment and, uh, she went back in.

• 3:12:51Speaker 06

  But it just, you know, you just see the actual, real, uh, impact of war on these people's lives. Yeah. You know, it's like, I don't know, we can get into it, but you're going, uh...

• 3:13:08Speaker 06

  You're looking at the, just the morality of us being there in the first place now, this many years after nine eleven. You're like, most of these fighters, would they even know anything about nine eleven? Or are they just fighting the people that are in their country? You know, I'm starting to ask myself some of these questions. And this, uh, these, you know, this woman, these civilians, they're just caught in, caught in the crossfire, you know, so. Just something to think about, you know, before we get engaged in these conflicts overseas.

• 3:13:41Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:42Speaker 06

  It's like, what, what does this actually look like on the ground? Cause it's, it's not a video game, it's not a movie. In, uh, in the real world, it's much uglier, much more gray area.

• 3:13:57Shawn Ryan?

  You were thinking that at the time? Or is this later?

• 3:14:01Speaker 06

  I remember being kinda, some of the things I saw just kinda screwing with my mind a little bit, but it took a lot of time to reflect on it.

• 3:14:10Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that's interesting because I've always, I've heard that, and please don't judge me, you know, but, cause I'm a ground guy and I don't fucking know. But I've heard about drone pilots talking about PTSD and, and the impacts of war and stuff and I, I never, I mean, I'm, I'm not gonna, I never said anything negative about it, but I did always wonder like, how can that even be? Like, it's so far away.

• 3:14:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:14:44Shawn Ryan?

  You're half a world away and, and, and does it even, that's why I'm asking, you know, does it even feel real? There's no personal connection?

• 3:14:53Speaker 06

  It feels very real because your mind is there. Um, in my experience, again, I would, I would never discount anybody's claims.

• 3:15:04Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:15:05Speaker 06

  Of PTSD. But it, in my experience, it wasn't the guys that were doing most of the engagements that were having those issues.

• 3:15:15Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha. I'm not, I'm not discounting, I don't wanna say that. It was, it was more curiosity.

• 3:15:21Speaker 06

  There was, there was a lot of things that happened and you're going, um.

• 3:15:27Speaker 06

  It was like, pretty quick ticket out of there. Anyway, like,

• 3:15:34Speaker 06

  I'll just leave it.

• 3:15:34Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean?

• 3:15:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, so if you, um, if you didn't want to do that job, whether you're, uh, an intel troop, or you just weren't liking the schedule, the lifestyle was pretty miserable because we were severely undermanned.

• 3:15:51Shawn Ryan?

  I see what you're.

• 3:15:52Speaker 06

  And it was just kinda like,

• 3:15:55Speaker 06

  again, I, I, I would never point the finger at any individual, but it was well known within the community that people would,

• 3:16:04Speaker 06

  have a escape route, if you will.

• 3:16:06Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha. It's a take it out.

• 3:16:08Speaker 06

  It's a take it out, yeah.

• 3:16:10Shawn Ryan?

  Is it a take it out back to the old unit, or is it just a take it out?

• 3:16:14Speaker 06

  Just take it out. Just, yeah, you could be, like, people would be, would just, you know, I'm looking at my five-year service commitment left and, um, they're like, well, I'm done, you know?

• 3:16:25Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 3:16:29Shawn Ryan?

  Man, this is, uh, I gotta be honest with you, this is just as interesting to me as the, as the A-10 stuff.

• 3:16:36Speaker 06

  I thought it might be because it's, uh, you see a lot of it on the news. You hear a lot about it, but, um, most everything I heard about on the news, I just, I feel like it's, it's a lot of things that are false, like.

• 3:16:49Shawn Ryan?

  What? You don't believe the news?

• 3:16:54Speaker 06

  Like, I mean, I can't speak to every,

• 3:16:58Speaker 06

  unmanned engagement that ever existed, but there's this, uh, kinda like this theme of like, oh, they just use unmanned assets to target like civilian weddings and shit like that, you know what I mean? Like, and it's like, I never saw anything like that. I mean, it was an air force unit supporting the guys on the ground. That's what we did, you know, like, we, we engaged combatants that were engaging our guys.

• 3:17:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:17:30Speaker 06

  So, like, I can't speak to whatever else ever happened, you know, in the history of these unmanned assets, but it was, uh, it was very clear in our unit who we were supporting.

• 3:17:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I wonder.

• 3:17:49Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, like the USAID worker that got killed during the withdrawal that the Biden administration told us was ISIS fighters. Do you remember this?

• 3:18:02Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 3:18:03Shawn Ryan?

  And that was a drone strike, correct?

• 3:18:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, and it hit that family, right?

• 3:18:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:18:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, and that's like...

• 3:18:11Shawn Ryan?

  Another lie from the media.

• 3:18:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's all they do is lie, right?

• 3:18:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, and the White House.

• 3:18:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, whatever fits the narrative at the time is usually what they say.

• 3:18:27Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think we should have, well, do you think we should have been there in Afghanistan? Or Iraq?

• 3:18:33Speaker 06

  I think Iraq, no. I think there's so many... You look at Iraq now, and it's like, are we better off without Saddam? Like strategically, geopolitically. So you look at, Saddam was basically a counterbalance to Iran, and we let them kind of go at it, right? And it was, it would have kept Iran from gaining too much power, and now basically Iran controls Iraq. So how can that be seen as a success?

• 3:19:12Speaker 06

  Like, not to mention all the lives lost, and it was sold on completely untrue basis of, you know, WMDs. So I think that one's a clear no. And then Afghanistan, I mean, they did harbor Al Qaeda, and so I think that was justified. But, I mean, pretty much the war was won by like 2003.

• 3:19:43Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:19:43Speaker 06

  And then big army comes in, it gets turned into this giant forever war that I think was used to help people get promotions and to make a lot of money. And everyone just said, they played their part, they said what they were supposed to say to the American people when it was clearly untrue to anyone who was there.

• 3:20:12Speaker 06

  And twenty years later, you know, they pull out in shame, just this complete debacle. Still, you know, makes me sick to think about. And then we immediately shift gears to, oh yeah, actually, the Taliban wasn't so bad. It's these ISIS K guys are the real threat.

• 3:20:31Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:31Speaker 06

  And, uh, you're like, okay, but we've been fighting these guys for twenty years.

• 3:20:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:37Speaker 06

  And.

• 3:20:38Shawn Ryan?

  Now we're sending them eighty million dollars a week.

• 3:20:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:20:41Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know if we'll still be sending that by the time this interview airs, but, cause it's, you know, in the House now, they, now it's on to the Senate to shut that shit down, but.

• 3:20:53Speaker 06

  It's unbelievable to try to.

• 3:20:55Shawn Ryan?

  Do you trust our government at all?

• 3:20:56Speaker 06

  No.

• 3:20:57Shawn Ryan?

  Any aspect of it?

• 3:20:58Speaker 06

  No. I think all they do, I think something happens organically or inorganically, and they just look at it, how, how can we spin this to, uh, further our own interests? So, so nine eleven happens and, um, then we go into Afghanistan, we go into Iraq. I mean, you look at like all the money that was made.

• 3:21:27Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 3:21:27Speaker 06

  And it's just, the, I don't know, there, there's, i- it's just hard to articulate the level of like rage that I have for these people that just lied to us for so long. I mean, we all have friends whose kids, you know, grew up without a dad. You know, and this was like ten years into the war, fifteen years in the war. Abbey Gate, twenty years later, it's like, why? Like, we all knew, anyone who knew anything about that war.

• 3:22:06Speaker 06

  Knew that the strategy that they were employing was going nowhere.

• 3:22:10Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 3:22:11Speaker 06

  I mean, that was obvious to the youngest private. And then the four star general goes and briefs Congress and says, everything's great. The ANA and the AMP, you know, Afghan National Army, National Police. They're getting up to speed. They're going to be ready to go. You know, they basically had the same talking points for 20 years.

• 3:22:33Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:22:34Speaker 06

  You get that, you know, there's a lot of careerism because, uh, you know, they're dressing up like Patton and all these generals, but really they're acting more like empty suits, you know, saying whatever it is, uh, that kind of the powers that be want them to say. And then they get that, that combat command tour, go on, get promoted. And then eventually end up at Raytheon or on the board of some defense contractor. So you just look at it and you realize that there were a lot of interest in that entire war, uh, that had nothing to do with what they were telling the public.

• 3:23:13Shawn Ryan?

  It's crazy how many sellouts this country produces. It's a, it's just. Everybody up there is a fucking sellout.

• 3:23:26Speaker 06

  It's like that four star pension isn't, isn't good enough? You need more?

• 3:23:31Shawn Ryan?

  Greed, man.

• 3:23:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:23:33Shawn Ryan?

  American greed.

• 3:23:34Speaker 06

  It's, it's sad to see. Hopefully there's.

• 3:23:37Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, even looking back, I mean, there's so many things that you can kind of piece together. Like you were talking about Southern Afghanistan. We were talking about Southern Afghanistan and the big, and the big push down in Lash and Marja. And, I mean, Marja was supposed to be the, what the second biggest offensive force since Fallujah. And I remember when Obama came out those ROEs. It was for the, for the Marine infantry at least was, uh, because I was at the agency down there when that was all happening. And I remember those, when those ROEs came out, they were saying that

• 3:24:20Shawn Ryan?

  if you get shot at and they drop the, and they drop their weapon, you're not allowed to engage.

• 3:24:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:24:28Shawn Ryan?

  And at that point, it's like.

• 3:24:33Shawn Ryan?

  What the fuck are we doing here? Like, why are you chopping our guys' legs out from under them? Like, you're not even giving them an opportunity.

• 3:24:42Speaker 06

  Why even send them outside the wire?

• 3:24:43Shawn Ryan?

  That's what I'm saying. You know, second of all, like, it's... It makes it impossible for them to complete the... The mission, or... You... You strip them of all confidence. Because now they're all worried that their superior is gonna send them to jail if they dime them out, that a guy dropped a... I mean, what? What if he drops his weapon while you're shooting him?

• 3:25:07Shawn Ryan?

  You... I mean, what?

• 3:25:09Speaker 06

  Yeah. I remember, I think it was McChrystal who's... Who gave the speech, he's like, "It's the bullet you don't fire that will win the war." And it was supposed to be some, like, um, you know, guru...

• 3:25:23Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:25:24Speaker 06

  Like, strategy, some, some, like... You know, some strategy to a level that us normal people could never understand. Like, if that's the case, again, why send anyone outside the wire?

• 3:25:37Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:25:37Speaker 06

  "Oh, well, we're gonna go do community engagement." It's like, okay, we're all dressed up like stormtroopers in a tribal

• 3:25:46Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:25:47Speaker 06

  society, and we're gonna, um, turn them into, like, a Jeffersonian democracy? Like, this is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. And, you know, I think they kept trying to build it up, like, oh, they have a plan. There's, uh, to stay the course. They have a plan, and, uh, eventually, I mean, maybe I'm a slow learner, but after like a decade and a half, you're like, there is no plan. This is the plan, it's just to keep the contracts going, and then, uh, keep getting promoted.

• 3:26:21Shawn Ryan?

  It's sad, man. It's, uh... Our standing in the world is just...

• 3:26:30Shawn Ryan?

  I feel like it's completely shot.

• 3:26:36Shawn Ryan?

  I think people, I think other countries just protect, just lie.

• 3:26:43Shawn Ryan?

  They, they don't want to challenge because of the repercussions, because we are so powerful and, and,

• 3:26:54Shawn Ryan?

  and the rest of the world hates us. I mean, I don't, I don't even, I hate fucking saying this shit, but.

• 3:27:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's depressing because it's.

• 3:27:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, like what, what good was done from that? Like, I mean, we're,

• 3:27:16Speaker 06

  the people were fighting over there. Again, like, I think the vast majority of them had no concept of nine 11. And like, a lot of them were like teenagers pulled from madrassas in Pakistan that were given, you know, five bucks and some opium and said, hey, go put on this suicide vest and walk into, you know, go find someone in uniform and blow it up. It's just, it's like, I don't know, a lot of these people that just seem to want us to go to war everywhere, have no actual firsthand experience of what it, what it looks like.

• 3:27:56Shawn Ryan?

  Man, that shit makes me so fucking angry. It does.

• 3:28:01Speaker 06

  Yeah. And then I couldn't believe how fast they shifted from the global war on terror to Ukraine.

• 3:28:10Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:28:11Speaker 06

  And I know, you know, Putin invaded Ukraine, but I also remember when Putin invaded Crimea in 2014 and it was hardly a news cycle.

• 3:28:22Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 3:28:23Speaker 06

  And I, call me suspicious, but I, I remember thinking like, they're just gonna like shut down all these contracts. I remember, remember thinking that, like, there's so much money being made in Afghanistan.

• 3:28:39Speaker 06

  I mean, I got invited.

• 3:28:42Speaker 06

  This is kinda weird. I got invited to the Raytheon plant.

• 3:28:46Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, really?

• 3:28:47Speaker 06

  To celebrate the thousandth laser maverick coming off the production line. And it, cause I had fi- in my 2014 deployment, I had fired, uh, some laser mavericks in combat. So they're like, "We want a combat vet who's fired this missile in theater to be at the ceremony." So, we go there and get a tour of the facility and, um...

• 3:29:12Speaker 06

  Anyhow, I just remember thinking, like, after the Afghanistan thing going, "There's a lot of..." I was actually surprised they did it. And I was like, "There's a lot of money going all over the place for these, these contracts, like, so are they just gonna get shut down now? Like, is that gonna be, um, are we shifting gears into some new economy? You know, something else gonna happen?" And then it was like clockwork. Then the Ukraine thing hit, and then of course, this time, unlike 2014, now it's the biggest thing on the news, and it's something that we need to spend hundreds of billions of dollars for. And then you're like, "Oh, yeah, those..."

• 3:29:54Speaker 06

  All, you know, not to be a cynic, but all those contracts are just keep on rolling.

• 3:29:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Ukraine could have been, Ukraine could have been a simple real estate purchase.

• 3:30:06Shawn Ryan?

  Those people didn't wanna be a part of that anyways.

• 3:30:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:30:09Shawn Ryan?

  Russia wanted it. That could have been a very simple real estate transaction.

• 3:30:16Speaker 06

  Seems like that's not what they wanted.

• 3:30:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:30:18Speaker 06

  They wanted it to drag out.

• 3:30:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. I wonder how long it will drag out. I wonder who's going to dismantle what we know today is the US. Because getting, that's one of the new things that I wanna do with this show, is start going around and getting the perspective of us from the rest of the world and not what the fucking media tells us.

• 3:30:45Shawn Ryan?

  I think that'd be very interesting.

• 3:30:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, and what's crazy is I rarely meet people in real life who think we should be involved all over the world. And I don't know, maybe that's my bubble. But for some reason, no matter who we vote for, we get like Liz Cheney's foreign policy.

• 3:31:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:31:07Speaker 06

  There's like no way out of it.

• 3:31:13Speaker 06

  Like it's not the, I don't think it's the American people driving this. They consistently try to vote their way out of these forever wars. I mean, Obama 2008 campaign ran on, you know, getting out of these stupid wars. Trump ran on getting out of the wars, you know, it's like. Everybody runs on disengagement because that's what the, that's what I think what most people want. Uh, but it just never happens.

• 3:31:48Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that's depressing, but uh, let's get, let's get, let's get back to your career. So you do four years at the, what was the program called?

• 3:32:01Speaker 06

  Um, I was at the, uh, 42nd Attack Squadron.

• 3:32:04Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:32:04Speaker 06

  Just flying MQ 9s in Vegas.

• 3:32:06Shawn Ryan?

  Were you just flying Afghanistan or were you flying Yemen?

• 3:32:09Speaker 06

  Uh, just Afghanistan. Um, I did another deployment to Afghanistan during that time. And, um, yeah, I mean, I learned a lot about insurgency during that tour. And as I got back to the A-10, I think it helped me quite a bit in, in kind of unexpected ways. But if you're, if you're staring at the battle space and on the radio for four years straight, you're gonna see and learn a lot.

• 3:32:38Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:38Speaker 06

  About how the enemy operates, their behavior. I got to the point where I could see the way somebody was walking and the way like their tunic laid over their arm, be like, that guy's got an AK. And it's like, if you're looking at it right now, it'd look like a little pixel poking up, maybe, you know, and you're like, I can just tell he's not walking like a civilian. You watch, watch, sure enough, as soon as he gets a chance, pulls it out, starts to take a shot at friendlies. So you, you got, you got really good at studying the enemy and, and just looking at their normal,

• 3:33:19Speaker 06

  like, patterns of life and things that just did not make sense. So you just, yeah, see that stuff, report it up to the guy, you know.

• 3:33:28Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:33:29Speaker 06

  The guys on the ground. I know for a fact that, um, We saved just untold American lives during that tour. So no, you know, no regrets. I guess that's what got out of store for me.

• 3:33:45Shawn Ryan?

  You very likely saved my ass. But, um, man, that's, uh, that's interesting. It's really, that stuff is just really interesting because I've never talked to a drone pilot, at least not knowingly.

• 3:34:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:34:01Shawn Ryan?

  So, and I've always had these questions about, you know, what's, what's, I mean, what's it like to, to kill from thousands and thousands, I mean, half a world away? You know, and, and you described it perfectly. So thank you. But on that note, let's take a break and then when we get back, we'll pick up, uh, back at the A-10.

• 3:34:23Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 3:34:27Shawn Ryan?

  I'd like to invite you to gain access to an exclusive experience on Vigilance Elite Patreon. Our patrons are the driving force behind the success of this show and their support allows us to keep doing what we do. Depending on the tier you choose, you'll get access to benefits like behind the scenes footage before each interview, early access to episodes, end of the month live Zoom calls with me, exclusive merch and more. Join us and become a patron starting at just $5 a month by visiting patreon.com/vigilanceelite. That's patreon.com/vigilanceelite.

• 3:35:08Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you for listening to the Sean Ryan Show. If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes and leave the Sean Ryan Show a review. We read every review that comes through and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show.

• 3:35:29Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Dale, we're back from the break. What were we talking about? Do you remember?

• 3:35:34Speaker 06

  It's all blending in.

• 3:35:35Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. More corruption, but it'll come to me.

• 3:35:42Shawn Ryan?

  So, but anyways, back to your story. So, we wrapped up the A- M9 tour. M9?

• 3:35:52Speaker 06

  MQ-9.

• 3:35:52Shawn Ryan?

  MQ-9, excuse me. Fascinating stuff, by the way. Thank you for sharing that. And so you're going back to rotation with the A-10?

• 3:36:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, so that whole time I was flying the MQ-9, they were saying, "You're never going back." And I just kind of didn't accept that. And again, I think God was looking out for me again because as I approached the end of that tour, they were going to send me to the MQ-9 Schoolhouse to be an instructor. And I've never been one to hold my true thoughts, you know? And I just told my commander, like, "I absolutely do not want to do that. I want to get back to the A-10." You know, that whole time I'm in Vegas, probably the first time in my life,

• 3:36:48Speaker 06

  I'm giving my body a rest. Because, you know, high school wrestling at a high level is really tough on your body. Cutting weight, training really hard, then two years of collegiate wrestling, and then into flying. And it was just, you know, it was just nice to get a break physically. And I did physical therapy. I had some sort of different kind of shots and stuff, like spinal shots. And I started feeling much better, like I was getting the feeling back in my hands and stuff. And anyhow, so he's like, "Well, like, you got to get a waiver to get back to the HOG, a medical waiver and this and that."

• 3:37:33Speaker 06

  But he wasn't completely, like, closed down to it. And...

• 3:37:39Speaker 06

  I think it made a big impact that I gave my all during that assignment. If I had just, you know, phoned it in, there would have been zero chance. But, I mean, as far, I did everything I could do during that four years to contribute to the mission. And, and he knew it and he wanted to get me what I wanted after that. So, anyhow, went through the medical process and they granted me a waiver to return to fly. And my former director of ops from Alaska is now the wing commander at an A-10 base.

• 3:38:21Speaker 06

  And so I'm just like throwing hail marys. I'm like, hey, sir, trying to get back to the A-10. If there's any chance, like, if there's any spot for me anywhere, like, I will, I will be the, you know, squadron cleaning guy. Like, I will do any extra duty. I will deploy immediately, like, whatever you need. You'll never hear a complaint from me. I just want to get back to the hog. And they, like, made an exception and let me go back to the A-10. And so I didn't have to go be an instructor in the MQ-9. I made it back to the hog. So, from there, I went to, back to Tucson and went to the Bulldogs at the 354th Fighter Squadron.

• 3:39:06Speaker 06

  And just kind of try to pick up where I left off.

• 3:39:11Shawn Ryan?

  What was it like being back?

• 3:39:12Speaker 06

  It was awesome, you know, like, I was-

• 3:39:15Shawn Ryan?

  Was it like riding a bike?

• 3:39:17Speaker 06

  I, I got back into it quicker than, than I would have thought. I went through a retraining course and it was just awesome because now I'm going through something similar to like the initial qualification. But I had like several years' experience flying the A-10, so it was, it was not difficult.

• 3:39:35Shawn Ryan?

  Had anything changed, new technology?

• 3:39:37Speaker 06

  Yeah. So I had flown the A-10A model when I had left and it was all like steam gauges in the jet, like, just looked like a Cessna you would fly, like an old Cessna. You know, like, you had this weapons control panel where you literally like analog scroll in, like, what weapon you wanted, how many, you know, you press the button, the, the, the timing for the release sequence. Like, it was all, all analog. And while I was gone, they had upgraded to the A-10C model and everything was digital. So now you have like these multi-function displays, GPS with like moving map displays.

• 3:40:18Speaker 06

  Uh, some new weapons had come online that I hadn't been trained on, but you know, flying the jet, doing the mission, and then all the avionics were very intuitive. So I picked it up pretty quick. And uh, yeah, from there, um, I did a couple of years in the squadron is, you know, up, started upgrading again, started getting my uh, flight lead, four ship flight lead uh, qualification. Eventually upgraded to uh, instructor and evaluator. So just kinda like caught up on the time I had missed when I was gone.

• 3:40:54Speaker 06

  Then uh, um, first daughter's born around this time too. So now I'm back in the jet and the family's growing. So it was uh, it was similar to my first assignment in that it just, nothing but fond memories, you know? It was, it was almost like I had another shot at a first assignment. And uh, it, yeah, it was fantastic.

• 3:41:19Shawn Ryan?

  What, how, so you had your daughter. How did you meet your wife?

• 3:41:22Speaker 06

  Okay. Yeah. So I've known uh, Amanda since the fourth grade. So we

• 3:41:27Shawn Ryan?

  Since fourth grade?

• 3:41:28Speaker 06

  Yeah. Uh, we grew up together, you know, I was moving around a bunch. So we kinda lost, lost contact. Um, but then when I was in uh, Alaska, um, she's, she's amazing. She's uh, has a master's degree in chemistry from Vanderbilt and she had gotten a job teaching in the Bay Area. And um, we were uh, we were closing down the squadron, like that squadron I was at in Alaska was, was shutting the doors. And so we were taking all of our jets and transferring them to this base in uh, Utah that um,

• 3:42:07Speaker 06

  uh refurbished them and then was gonna send them out to other units. Anyhow, so I'm flying jets back to the uh, the continental US fairly frequently by myself, like single, singletons. And then I'm routing all my flights with the longest delays possible in the Bay Area where she was. So.

• 3:42:29Speaker 06

  So I could have an excuse to to go see her and meet up with her and stuff. So I'd be like, yeah, um, I've got a 22 hour layover in the bear. And she's like, well, that sounds like the worst fight ever.

• 3:42:44Speaker 06

  That's like a red eye. And then, yeah, anyhow, so I kept doing that and we we just um, um, we just hit it off again. You know, kind of reconnected since high school. Then, uh, um, she came out to Korea because she was teaching chemistry at the time. So she came out there for the summer and then got married in Vegas. So

• 3:43:05Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 3:43:05Speaker 06

  Quick background on my lovely bride.

• 3:43:08Shawn Ryan?

  And you guys have been married for how long?

• 3:43:10Speaker 06

  Uh, 15 years now.

• 3:43:11Shawn Ryan?

  Congratulations.

• 3:43:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, it's it's awesome. I I did not love being single, like being married is amazing.

• 3:43:19Shawn Ryan?

  So with and she's been through all the deployments or a lot of deployments?

• 3:43:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, she's she's, uh, yeah, we were, we started talking when I just got back from my first deployment in Alaska.

• 3:43:32Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. So switching gears and then we'll get back to it. Tim, what do you think is the secret to a successful marriage?

• 3:43:42Speaker 06

  Um, that's a good question. Um, I think, you know, like it's being married is really easy before you have kids, right?

• 3:43:56Shawn Ryan?

  So just found that out.

• 3:43:59Speaker 06

  So, yeah, when like we just had so much fun together, you know, like it to me, being married to her was is just, I love it. Like she's, I'm so happy with her, like, uh, we're just a good team. You know what I mean? Like, uh, I'm like, wow, I'm really excited that she likes me enough to marry me.

• 3:44:20Speaker 06

  Like one of those situations, you know? Yeah. She's, she's beautiful, smart, loyal. We grew up in the same place, you know, so have shared background. And so being married to her, I would say is easy. And then the kids come along, you know? And neither of my girls slept at all for like two years straight. Like just hard sleepers, like, and we were so paranoid. We're like following all the rules, like, oh, no, no co-sleeping. And she, they have to be on their back. They can't be on their side or, you know, whatever it is. We're like freaked out following all the rules. Now, if we could go back, we probably wouldn't follow none of those rules. It was just too hard, like, it just, it was hard.

• 3:45:05Speaker 06

  So, um, introducing kids definitely adds challenges because now all your focus is on, for me, it was like my career and then my kids and then my wife. Uh huh. Is really what was happening. And, uh, you know, I think if your wife is unhappy, she might not necessarily tell you, but you can feel it, you know? And it's like when you're working 70 hours a week and you're, uh, and then you have kids, then you're not sleeping. And then any spare time is, you know, if you're like doing anything else and, you know, you're kind of not putting your family, uh, you're not prioritizing correctly. And which we can get to later about what I'm doing now.

• 3:45:50Speaker 06

  But, um, yeah, I think we definitely had struggles when I'm starting to deploy again. You know, we have kids and even when you're home stationed in a fighter squadron, you might go TDY, like temporary duty, like a training. Mm hmm. Exercise, you might be leaving 10 times a year. And those training workups might be two weeks, three weeks long. So it's just, it's a demanding career field, obviously. But, uh, so to wrap this up, what makes a happy marriage? Like, I think you have to reprioritize. Should be wife first and then kids and then, um.

• 3:46:30Speaker 06

  And then every, you know, your kids are gonna be as happy as possible if you and your wife are getting along.

• 3:46:35Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:46:36Speaker 06

  So if you're getting along with your wife, everything's gonna fall into place after that. So it's just being deliberate. And I still work at that, but it's like, okay, we're gonna go on a date. We're gonna spend time with just you and I, no distractions. And uh, try to do that regularly. Just make, make that time a priority. And then she'll feel that you care about her and you're, then she'll be happy and your life will be good.

• 3:47:01Shawn Ryan?

  That's great advice, man. Thank you. Thank you. And uh, congratulations on 15 years. That's. Is there a high divorce rate in the, as a pilot?

• 3:47:11Speaker 06

  I mean, I don't know the stats, but from anecdotally, yes.

• 3:47:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I would say, I would, I could see that.

• 3:47:18Speaker 06

  It's brutal. And that, that's why I love her so much too. Like she was just rock solid through my entire career and supported me a hundred percent. So. It's like, she deserves that.

• 3:47:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:29Speaker 06

  Attention, you know?

• 3:47:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, back to the A-10.

• 3:47:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:47:34Shawn Ryan?

  So, do you deploy again as an A-10 pilot?

• 3:47:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. So now, uh, been back for a, a good period of time, couple of years. And um, I really wanted to get back in the fight. Um, you know, I deployed as a young wingman, again, just kinda been to some troops in contact and some, some uh, some interesting situations, but really not fully engaged, you know? Then deployed in the MQ-9, so it's like, I really wanna get in the mix in the hog again. And so, uh, I was able to jump in on a um, a deployment with uh, the 303rd Fighter Squadron. It's a reserve unit out of uh, White Men Air Force Base in Missouri. And um, they were going to Afghanistan.

• 3:48:23Speaker 06

  And they had like two empty billets that they wanted active duty to fill. And so I saw that and I volunteered. And so, uh, got to jump back in on another deployment in uh, 2014.

• 3:48:38Speaker 06

  And uh, yeah, that trip was, was incredible because that unit was highly experienced. So being a reserve unit, they, they're full of like, just some of the most experienced pilots in the air force. Like, some of them had been there for decades. Like, I flew with a guy, Karl Marx, has like, more A-10 hours than anyone ever will. No one will ever catch him. It's like 7,000 hours.

• 3:49:06Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 3:49:07Speaker 06

  And he, he like, he's a machine. He destroyed, I want to say 27 armor pieces in the first Gulf War as a lieutenant.

• 3:49:17Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 3:49:17Speaker 06

  And then flew like, the entire GWAT, you know, and he's still flying right now. He'll be probably the last one to climb off the ladder when they're done.

• 3:49:26Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 3:49:26Speaker 06

  But yeah, so I'm flying with these just incredible, credible people in Afghanistan, that um, that 2014 deployment. And uh, yeah, it was just a, it was just a great trip. Just did the mission, flew for like seven months, did nothing but fly.

• 3:49:44Shawn Ryan?

  Flight lead?

• 3:49:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, yep. I was a flight lead now. And uh, yeah, I'm just.

• 3:49:50Shawn Ryan?

  Engagements?

• 3:49:51Speaker 06

  More engagements, yeah. Now I finally get to um, do the job in the hog.

• 3:49:57Shawn Ryan?

  Let's talk about that. Let's talk about, let's talk about your first kill in, in the A-10. We talked about it in the drone. Let's talk about it here.

• 3:50:06Speaker 06

  Okay, so we're um, we're supporting this uh, this troops in contact over by, I want to say FOB right, again, up in north uh, um, forgive me, northeastern Afghanistan, kind of north of Nixon's nose on, on the border. And um,

• 3:50:28Speaker 06

  So we report to this tech, check in, give them our loadout, our time on station, and start getting the dope on, on what's going on in the ground situation. And as soon as, as soon as we show up, there's like these, uh, these little birds, you know, the, um, I'm sorry, not little birds, the, uh, Kiwas, you know, those, those, they shoot, like, they're tiny little helicopters. Mm-hmm. And the, the pilots are such badasses, like, and so they're like, they're out of munitions, and they're like, shooting it out. Are you serious? Yeah, they're shooting, they're in, like, M4 out the door. They're like, straight up cowboys.

• 3:51:10Speaker 06

  They're in a firefight, like, I'm, I'm overhead watching these guys, like, Holy shit. Shoot it out, and he's like, like, shooting his, right, he's just, he's, uh, you know, mag dumping out the door at this enemy fighting position. And, uh, we get them on the horn, and I'm like, oh dude, I'm gonna put a 500-pound bomb right, right on it, right? But I gotta get them to move away. And they're like, they're not having it, cause they're like, they're just shooting it out with these guys, man, that's, that's what they're... That's what they wanna do. That's what they wanted to do. I mean, I, I have so much respect for those guys, like, they just, they just get in the

• 3:51:55Speaker 06

  mix. But anyway, finally, it was real basic, I, um, I fixed the enemy position, uh, got them outside of the bomb frag range, so like, a safe distance, and they just came in, medium altitude, and put a 500-pound bomb and silenced the, uh, silenced the guns. I'll bet that would do it. Yeah, yeah, and then, uh, there were, there were quite a few, few more deployments on that, that trip, it was pretty active at that time. How, I mean, how did that feel compared to the drone? Yeah, and it's just like... Uh, like I said, the tasks were very similar.

• 3:52:39Speaker 06

  Like, hey, you gotta get in bomb range. You gotta be flying a specific heading and airspeed. You gotta get in the window. You know, pickle the bomb off and lays it into the target. So the tasks were very similar. But the, um, uh, in this case, it was a GPS guided bomb. So it just went to the coordinates. But, uh, but it just, when you're physically there in the firefight, it, it makes a difference. Yeah. It just, you know, you feel like King Kong again. You're like, I can't believe, you, you just have all this firepower at your fingertips. And then, uh, you know, these guys are harming my guys. They're hurting them and now I'm, I'm just gonna make them go away.

• 3:53:22Speaker 06

  You know, and that's, and you're just like, what do I want to select? What, what makes sense for this tactical situation? And, uh, and then you just do it and guns go quiet and everyone's happy.

• 3:53:33Shawn Ryan?

  What about, have you ever, have you ever flown a mission where you had, where you went Winchester? Winchester for the audience means out of ammunition.

• 3:53:43Speaker 06

  I never did in theater. I got, I may have gotten pretty close. Um, I never, I've never been in a situation where I needed bullets. I've gotten close to being Winchester, but I don't think I fully emptied the gun.

• 3:53:57Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's talk about that specific, uh, moment in time.

• 3:54:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, so like the, all these situations are very similar. Like, cause that's basically what we do. And in this case, I think it was like, we're seeing, um, we're kinda out in the middle of nowhere and we're seeing muzzle flashes from a tree line. But you can't really pinpoint the, um, the point of origin. You're just like, I know that that's an enemy position and they're, they're ambushing these friendlies who are pinned down. And, um, you might wanna like, there might, there's a whole variety of factors on weapon selection. Like, you might not wanna put a bomb there because of collateral damage concerns. You know, they're, um, Again, there's just so many factors of what you decide.

• 3:54:46Speaker 06

  But in this case, we're like, let's just strafe the tree line until these guys can break contact and keep moving. And so Wingman and I just kind of set up like, we call it like a race car pattern, two ship, and just did multiple passes on this tree line until, pretty quickly, they broke contact and blasted out of there. So, yeah, this is like, more like suppressive fire at this point.

• 3:55:15Shawn Ryan?

  Which weapon system do you like utilizing the most on the A-10?

• 3:55:19Speaker 06

  Um, it's gotta be the gun.

• 3:55:20Shawn Ryan?

  The gun?

• 3:55:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, and then the second would be Maverick missiles, but the gun is awesome.

• 3:55:26Shawn Ryan?

  Can you talk about that, another experience?

• 3:55:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, um, so, it was funny, I was flying with, uh, with Carl, this legend, and, uh, and like, you know, at this point, I'm like, I think I'm a, a major. He's a lieutenant colonel, but he's just, he's such a legend that I'm like, I'm like, okay, I don't want to embarrass myself, you know, so I'm, you know, I'm, I'm acting like a lieutenant, and, and he's like a general officer or something, you know, like, "Sir, how you like your coffee?" Like, like, we get, uh, we get to fly together, uh, I just don't, I wanna, um, I don't want to lose his respect, you know?

• 3:56:10Speaker 06

  So he's, he's like, just professional, all the way down, very little expression, here's our mission, uh, here's what we're doing. I'm flying on his wing, and we're going, uh, to support an infill, you know, and, um, and it's at night now, and we're out there, and he needs gas, so he goes to the tanker, and then this, of course, this thing just pops off with him gone.

• 3:56:39Speaker 06

  And he's like, "Damn, you porked up, wait for me."

• 3:56:44Speaker 06

  I don't know if he actually said that, but you could tell he was like, he's like, "Where are you at? What's going on?" Like, he's just like, he's, he's getting to the tanker and wants to get back as, as fast as he can, uh, cause he hadn't shot a laser maverick yet on that trip and, uh, he hadn't had the opportunity to. So, uh, anyhow, I knew that cause we had talked about it. And I'm like, "I know exactly what we're gonna do." Like, "I'm gonna set up this attack." And the ground commander requested, uh, laser maverick for this particular target. And, uh, I just set it up to where, um, he rolled off the tanker and then I was wheeled up around the target. And then he just came

• 3:57:28Speaker 06

  in, got a good spot on the laser energy, got it within, uh, proper range, rifled off the maverick, and then I provided the terminal gu- terminal guidance and we crushed the target and then came back around and strafed the follow-up targets together, so.

• 3:57:46Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 3:57:47Speaker 06

  It was like, like, it was awesome.

• 3:57:49Shawn Ryan?

  That's badass, man.

• 3:57:51Speaker 06

  Oh, and then on the way back, Carl, like, now, it was so cool, cause now we're like best buddies. He's like, "Pork chop, that was awesome."

• 3:58:00Speaker 06

  He, he dropped the, uh, the stoic warrior for just like, just a few minutes.

• 3:58:08Shawn Ryan?

  That's awesome, man.

• 3:58:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:58:12Shawn Ryan?

  So was that your final deployment?

• 3:58:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, that was my final deployment. I, uh, my daughter was born like just prior to that, so I wanna say she was like, I don't know, four months old when I left. And, um, by the time I got back, she was like a year old. And so, uh, and I had volunteered for that deployment and, uh, promised my wife, like, if I get sent, you know, I'm happy to go, but I won't volunteer. Like, I won't, you know, force the issue.

• 3:58:44Shawn Ryan?

  You won't chase it?

• 3:58:45Speaker 06

  Yeah. I'm like, I've done everything I ever set out to do in this jet, times, times 10, you know, so, uh, so I'm, I'm happy with what I've done. And, uh, yeah, so I get back from that deployment and, um, I pick up, uh, my first instructor assignment, uh, in same location, which was cool. So we didn't have to move. So I moved from the operational squadron over, uh, to the training squadron. And so now, uh, serving as an instructor for those new pilots coming straight out of pilot training. So kind of full circle from, from where I started now.

• 3:59:28Shawn Ryan?

  How'd that, uh, I mean, were you a tough instructor?

• 3:59:32Speaker 06

  I think I was kind of a Santa Claus.

• 3:59:34Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 3:59:35Speaker 06

  I just, I don't know. I re- I, I held the standard because, you know, what the Air Force needs is competent, you know, proficient A-10 pilots. Um, but they were, I feel like they were pretty damn good. They worked their ass off and they'd been through so much that, I mean, maybe, I don't know. I, I didn't feel like I had to be a hard ass. I just had to uphold the standard.

• 4:00:01Shawn Ryan?

  So you, so when you went to instructor duty, it was, you were, it was, they'd been through all the phases. Now it's the A-10 pilots?

• 4:00:10Speaker 06

  Yeah. So like I got to fly with students on their very first flight in the A-10.

• 4:00:15Shawn Ryan?

  That has to be pretty cool to see.

• 4:00:16Speaker 06

  It was awesome. I, like, some people scoff at instructor duty, but it was one of my favorite times in the Air Force. Like, they're just, they're so excited about every mission. I mean, some people, you know, it's like early in the phase, you're not doing anything particularly exciting. You're just, you know, flying around the flagpole, getting them familiar with the jet. But to them, it's exciting. This is brand new. So I thought, I thought it was awesome. I, it was very rewarding.

• 4:00:48Shawn Ryan?

  When did you separate from the military?

• 4:00:51Speaker 06

  Um, so, um, I basically did that for a while. I stayed on as instructor. And then I became the director of ops for, uh, the instruct, for the training squadron. So writing the syllabus and things like that. Uh, and then I got picked up for squadron command out at, uh, Avon Park in Florida. And, uh, that's a training facility. So it's not where they send their future four stars, you know, but, um, like for a guy like me that, uh, was prior enlisted and, uh, made it back to the hog. It was, it was a great honor, you know, so just run this, uh,

• 4:01:32Speaker 06

  this basically this training compound for exercises. Did that for a couple of years. And then came back to Tucson and, uh, I was able to stay flying during that assignment. Came back to Tucson, taught for a while. And then, uh, at the end of that, again, it was just more kind of like, uh, neck and back issues, kind of coming back, doing a lot of staff work. And at that point, just decided that I was basically done and ready to hit the door.

• 4:02:03Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you had mentioned at breakfast that, um,

• 4:02:08Shawn Ryan?

  you know when you're done without a doubt.

• 4:02:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:02:10Shawn Ryan?

  And so what, was there anything in particular that, that, I mean, you're fresh out. You got out on 2023?

• 4:02:19Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, so, yeah, there's, there was a few factors, like, first and foremost, I was just kind of physically spent, like I was a spent force, like, I, from all the back and neck issues, I went like, I went so long, like I couldn't even feel half my hand, like, and, um, just they, they put me on pain meds. They did, we were doing different things to try to, uh, try to eke out a few more months, you know what I mean?

• 4:02:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:02:54Speaker 06

  Just kind of like, what am I, what am I doing? Like I fly one sortie. And for the next week, I can't even rotate my neck. Like this is, I'm just, like, the air force is going to move on just fine without me, you know? So I just,

• 4:03:11Speaker 06

  I was just feeling it and then the Air Force was changing too now. So, you know, I had come in, I think I said I enlisted um December ninety-nine, you know, so we're like over twenty years later now. And uh, you know, I was a squadron commander during Covid, during all the riots, you know, during the um, the Trump presidency, you know, all the, the Russia collusion hoax narrative. And uh, it's just, just going like, what

• 4:03:48Speaker 06

  are we doing as a country? Like, this is, this is not what I signed up for, like, to, you know, we, we, we all believe in this like, you know, this colorblind meritocracy. Like, you put in the work, this institution will give you the ability to reach your potential. You know, the Amer- America needs warfighters. And if you are willing to do what it takes, no matter, you know, what you look like, where you came from, we're gonna give you that opportunity. And um, I actually remember, so it was like, like, twenty twenty riots kicked off and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force put out a video, uh, this guy CQ

• 4:04:33Speaker 06

  Brown. And um, I was like, oh, great, like, he's going to be kind of a reassuring voice, you know? Like, I figured we're all kind of wired the same way. And he was gonna put out a great statement about how this is a great country and um, and I was looking forward to hearing it, you know? And then I listened to his video and may, I don't know if it's just the way I interpreted it, but it was like, not at all what I was expecting. It was like, kind of that um,

• 4:05:08Speaker 06

  I don't know, woke, race communism, grievance. Kind of mindset about how awful, you know, his career was and how everyone was racist and I don't know, maybe I'm over reading into it, but I'm just going like, can't we hear like a unifying voice? Not more grievance, you know? Yeah. And uh, so just stuff like that's happening and I'm basically just over it. Yeah. I'm going like, you know, the, the whole D E I thing is just so toxic for the military.

• 4:05:46Speaker 06

  It's like, if you start injecting this, this quotas and requirements and this and that, it completely diverges from the institution that I love, which is, uh, which I truly believe in. Every commander I ever served with was amazing. And they didn't care who you were, like where you came from, what the color of your skin was. Uh, they didn't care any, about any of that. And um, if you were good, like you, you were gonna be respected and you were gonna get all the opportunities. And uh, it just felt like they were shifting to something else, you know?

• 4:06:30Speaker 06

  Just kind of a combination of all that. I just like, I remember talking to my commander when I was uh, my group commander when I was a squadron commander about um, going to air war college. And uh, it's not that I'm some, you know, fantastic officer, but I think so many people were separating that they had a lot of slots available. It's just like, hey, what do you, what do you want to do for school? So if you go to air war college, it's kind of get your ticket punched to O six and group command. And I'm talking to my wife about it and it's just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to move every 10 months.

• 4:07:11Speaker 06

  I'm physically over it and I don't even know what the hell our leadership is saying.

• 4:07:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:07:18Speaker 06

  On half of this stuff, so I just decided it was time for us to go. And so told him I was gonna get out and then that's why I was able to get back to Tucson and picked up another instructor tour, which is at that point is basically you're saying, hey, I'm not on the path to promotion and I'm just waiting to get out.

• 4:07:41Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Man, I can't imagine, you know, I talked to guys that are still in and like guys like yourself that are, and women who have recently retired and, man, the morale.

• 4:08:00Shawn Ryan?

  It just seems like it's at an all time low, you know, and.

• 4:08:06Speaker 06

  They can't get anyone to join. I mean, it's like, how hard should it be to get young men to come shoot guns and fly airplanes and hang out with their friends? I mean, it's awesome. I, I think, I want everybody to have that opportunity if they want it, but it's making it so divisive.

• 4:08:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, there's so many agendas, it seems like being shoved down everybody's throat that, I mean, I get asked that all the time, you know, do, do, I'm sure you do too probably on social, you know, you had young, young adults asking if I would serve in the military now or should they serve? And that's a tough question for me.

• 4:08:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:09:00Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I don't know, I don't really agree with anything we're doing and I don't agree with any of the agendas coming out. I mean.

• 4:09:15Shawn Ryan?

  Why are we talking about sexual preference?

• 4:09:21Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:09:22Shawn Ryan?

  In a, in a, in a warfighting machine?

• 4:09:26Speaker 06

  Why is that relevant?

• 4:09:28Shawn Ryan?

  It's not. You know, why does it keep getting brought up?

• 4:09:31Speaker 06

  Dude, I remember going to McDill Air Force Base in the summer of 2020 for a medical appointment. And in the hospital were all these flyers and signs up that had like the LGBTQIA flag with like the BLM fist superimposed on the front of it. And, and thinking like, how is this acceptable? This is like far left, you know, divisive political imagery. But in, in the military I served prided itself on being nonpartisan, being neutral. We serve the American people, you know, like we're not, you leave your politics at home.

• 4:10:16Shawn Ryan?

  You weren't even allowed to speak out about that kind of shit if, if, if, if I remember correctly. I mean, it's been a long time. I left in 06.

• 4:10:23Speaker 06

  I came in during Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

• 4:10:26Shawn Ryan?

  But, I mean,

• 4:10:31Shawn Ryan?

  what are you, what are your, what are your thoughts when people ask that question?

• 4:10:35Speaker 06

  You know, I, I've thought about it a lot and um, I think I would be

• 4:10:43Speaker 06

  giving bad advice if I talked to a guy just like me and shut him down and told him, you can't do this because now it's ruined. And then it's like, what are you supposed to do? Kid living in his car that has, you know, tons of ambition, but no direction.

• 4:11:01Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:11:02Speaker 06

  And it's like,

• 4:11:04Speaker 06

  Fly these jets, do these things. It's like, do it.

• 4:11:09Speaker 06

  If me telling you not to do it would have stopped you, you probably weren't gonna make it anyway. But go do it and serve honorably. And we're gonna need people that have that experience. And we're gonna need good people because hopefully this madness ends and reasonable people will take charge again. So go do it and do the best you can and serve with honor and don't do anything that violates your conscience. I mean, one thing they teach us all, I hope they're still teaching it, is that you are not to follow unlawful orders.

• 4:11:48Speaker 06

  You know, so just know that we might be going into an era where that's actually relevant. You know, so, you know, I would say do it, go, I mean, there's, there's amazing benefits. I had the time of my life.

• 4:12:04Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:12:05Speaker 06

  You know, I, I like, I had so much fun. I, I served with the most amazing people. And I want that to be an opportunity for young people to continue doing. So I say, if you want to do it, go do it, but just know that

• 4:12:23Speaker 06

  there may come a time where you have to actually stand up and say, no, I'm not doing that.

• 4:12:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, that's good advice. You know, I

• 4:12:36Shawn Ryan?

  I tell them,

• 4:12:39Shawn Ryan?

  if you like the direction that the country's going, join.

• 4:12:45Speaker 06

  Starve them out kind of thing?

• 4:12:47Shawn Ryan?

  If you do, when you get up there to the ranks, hold your ground, man. Like, don't fold like all these other

• 4:12:57Shawn Ryan?

  fucking upper brass. I mean, look at, look, it's just, and then I'd also tell them, I say, you know, there's a lot of

• 4:13:09Shawn Ryan?

  Nothing's ever what you think it is, in my experience. And, and, and you're not joining the military that you probably think you are.

• 4:13:21Shawn Ryan?

  And times have changed and, and, you know, and, and, man, it's just, it's really disheartening. It breaks my heart to see what everything is turning into and,

• 4:13:37Shawn Ryan?

  you know, a lot of there's the argument about, and I get it, I, it bothers me too, you know, the, well, we have to have a military. Who's gonna defend the country?

• 4:13:50Shawn Ryan?

  Well,

• 4:13:53Shawn Ryan?

  we have a second amendment. And so if this country gets invaded, guess what? We're all on the fucking military now, buddy. And there's a lot of guns in this country, and there's a lot of people that know how to use them. And

• 4:14:12Shawn Ryan?

  it would be extremely hard for somebody to invade.

• 4:14:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't think it's feasible. This with today's technology.

• 4:14:21Shawn Ryan?

  I don't either, you know, but, but.

• 4:14:24Speaker 06

  I, I see where you're coming from and kind of my darker angels just wanna say, tell everybody to like starve the beast, you know, don't, don't send your kids to, you know, die for pedophile riots in Uganda or whatever the, the latest thing they're sanctioning someone for.

• 4:14:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I.

• 4:14:50Shawn Ryan?

  Is that a thing?

• 4:14:51Speaker 06

  There was like, there was this recent event where Uganda passed a law that was deemed anti-LGBT. And in that included, I think, like capital punishment for pedophiles, which is a pretty good law.

• 4:15:11Shawn Ryan?

  Appropriate to me.

• 4:15:13Speaker 06

  But then there was like massive outrage from DC, from the left and the right, and they got like sanctioned for it. As a, as a violation of human rights, so.

• 4:15:24Shawn Ryan?

  Sanctioned from, what do we get from Uganda?

• 4:15:27Speaker 06

  Some sort of aid. I mean, I'm I'm out of my wheelhouse here, but it's like you just see what are our values? What do we, what do we, is it hard work treating people fairly? Or is it, let's go spread gay rights overseas? That's the only thing I see.

• 4:15:48Speaker 06

  I mean, like.

• 4:15:52Shawn Ryan?

  mutilate children?

• 4:15:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:15:56Shawn Ryan?

  Rip them from their homes?

• 4:15:59Shawn Ryan?

  Let them make a decision that's gonna affect the rest of their life when they can't even smoke a fucking cigarette till they're eighteen or drink a beer until they're twenty one?

• 4:16:07Speaker 06

  Like, that's our value system?

• 4:16:09Shawn Ryan?

  It's what it is now.

• 4:16:11Speaker 06

  If that's the case, like.

• 4:16:15Speaker 06

  It's what's the point of any of this, right? Like, why would anyone sacrifice to prop that up?

• 4:16:25Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 4:16:29Shawn Ryan?

  But, so you moved to, you moved to Oregon?

• 4:16:34Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 4:16:35Shawn Ryan?

  And now you're, you're working a ranch.

• 4:16:39Shawn Ryan?

  How's that, how's that learning, how's that learning curve?

• 4:16:42Speaker 06

  It's awesome, man. You know, the, we've talked about the kind of demands of military life. All these moves, you know, and as I'm moving around at the end of my career, I'm watching my oldest daughter go from this, like, the brightest light, full of joy and happiness, to kind of like shutting down, you know? Like, we move from Tucson to Florida, and then she makes new friends, you know? Uh, and then I get my, uh, beautiful Sarah comes along and she makes friends, you know? And they're like, we're getting into a good routine there, but it's a two-year assignment.

• 4:17:23Speaker 06

  Then we, it's the third move for my oldest Holly back to Tucson, but now everybody's gone that she knew then. And I just see her like, um, kind of shutting down. Like, she didn't, you know, at this time, she's like seven, eight years old. She doesn't want to make new friends. She's not being outgoing. She's kind of lashing out at mom, and it's be, it's difficult. And, uh. I'm going like, man, like, every, every child is different, right? But I see this child is not going to do well with this lifestyle. And we gotta do something different.

• 4:18:03Speaker 06

  And so I started looking at this going like, guy, do I want to do the airlines? Do I want to go, you know, the Air Force paid for me to get an MBA? So do I want to go to corporate America? Like, what am I gonna do? It's basically a blank slate. It's like graduating high school again, right? And, um, and I'm looking at all the time away, all the long days from my family and thinking, like, we're, you know, my wife was successful. I'm doing pretty good, like, together, we're, we're, we don't need a ton of money to make it. So why don't we do something that where we can really just pour into these kids and invest

• 4:18:47Speaker 06

  in our family? And, uh, you know, completely off the beaten path. So decided to forego, uh, airlines, forego corporate America. And we bought an old dairy farm that hadn't been operational in like 30 years, all overgrown with briars and alders and, uh, barn was leaking and, um, but there was, it was still there. And I just decided to step off onto this journey of transforming this property, uh, that had just kind of gone into disarray, uh, back into a functional, uh, cattle ranch.

• 4:19:28Speaker 06

  So, yeah, just been a lot of time, you know, working outside, homeschooling the kids. So building fences, you know, planting grass, trimming trees, clearing out brush, you know, doing roofing, just, just manual work outside. And that's basically what I've been doing since I got out.

• 4:19:52Shawn Ryan?

  Is that therapeutic for you?

• 4:19:53Speaker 06

  Uh, it's amazing. I just, like.

• 4:19:59Speaker 06

  I don't know. I think it took me at least, you know, six to nine months to even begin to understand the amount of stress I was under on active duty. And, uh, yeah, it's just reconnecting with nature, you know?

• 4:20:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:20:17Speaker 06

  You're just outside every day. You kind of live by the natural conditions. Like, it's like, okay, what's the, what's the rain looking like? What's the temperature? What's the sun exposure? How's my grass gonna do? Also, back surfing. So what's the swell look like?

• 4:20:37Shawn Ryan?

  You're surfing again?

• 4:20:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:20:38Shawn Ryan?

  Nice, man.

• 4:20:40Speaker 06

  Nothing like I did when I was younger, but taking my girls out surfing, taking my, going with my dad. He was always a surfer.

• 4:20:48Shawn Ryan?

  Damn, that's awesome.

• 4:20:49Speaker 06

  So, yeah, it's just, it's like, it's a chance to take each day and maximize it for what's important to me.

• 4:20:59Shawn Ryan?

  Are you, like I said, I've been following you for a while on X and, man, you posted a 4th of July, Independence Day. You posted a photo of your daughter, one of your daughters. What is that, a 22?

• 4:21:15Speaker 06

  That's a 22 mag.

• 4:21:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, walking in the creek, barefoot. How old is she there?

• 4:21:20Speaker 06

  Seven.

• 4:21:21Shawn Ryan?

  Seven years old? I think the caption was like, "The European mind can't fathom this, this, this level of freedom" or something. I was like, "Holy shit, that is amazing. That is so fucking American. It's awesome." But are you guys like, are you 100% self-sufficient out there?

• 4:21:42Speaker 06

  Um, I mean, we are still connected to the power grid and we still go to the grocery store. We probably, I don't know, produce 80, 90% of the calories we eat, you know, just from, you know, I do Angus, grass-fed, grass-finished beef, so, um...

• 4:22:03Speaker 06

  It's really difficult to get to fully like comprehend what you're eating, even if you shop at like, you know, the the highest end.

• 4:22:14Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:22:14Speaker 06

  Natural grocers or uh whatever it may be. You can't really know exactly what you're putting in your body, what you're putting in your kid's body, unless you raise that food from the ground up. So yeah, to just, you know, see a calf born and watch it grow and, you know, process steers and put it in the freezer and make, you know, feed it to your family. It's just, it's the most rewarding feeling ever.

• 4:22:42Shawn Ryan?

  Are you guys growing too?

• 4:22:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, we have a huge garden, but just for personal use.

• 4:22:47Shawn Ryan?

  Greenhouse?

• 4:22:49Speaker 06

  Yep, we got a greenhouse.

• 4:22:50Shawn Ryan?

  Man, like you got, you guys got it made out there.

• 4:22:54Speaker 06

  It's a little slice of paradise.

• 4:22:56Shawn Ryan?

  It looks amazing and uh it makes me jealous every time I see you post a picture of your property. But um yeah, you know, with the homeschool thing, we're, I mean, we're thinking about doing homeschooling.

• 4:23:14Shawn Ryan?

  But it's always this like issue of, you know, are the kids gonna be socialized enough? And so somebody who's going, who's doing it, I mean, what, what are your thoughts on that? I mean, you've, you, you look pretty isolated out there.

• 4:23:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, we're, we're not too far from civilization, you know, it's like, it's within, you know, you be in civilization in thirty minutes, so it's not crazy. But um, um, yeah, that it's something you have to think about and I think, plan for. I honestly think moving around in the military every couple of years is probably harder on kids than uh socially than, than homeschooling. And homeschooling now looks very different than it did like when we were kids, because so many people are doing it. You set up these uh cohorts, filled with homeschoolers that have like similar values, you know, we're all Christians.

• 4:24:12Speaker 06

  We all um wanna raise our kids with good Christian values.

• 4:24:17Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 4:24:18Speaker 06

  And they meet once a week and that day looks a lot like a traditional classroom. So they're in there with, I think they're um. It's growing so fast.

• 4:24:30Shawn Ryan?

  Where do you do it? Is it on, is it like move around to people's property?

• 4:24:34Speaker 06

  No, um, a really awesome family uh that's done really well in real estate, just bought a property and completely renovated it for the school. And it's just like a community resource now for for homeschoolers.

• 4:24:48Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 4:24:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's amazing. And like my wife was a, you know, she like we said, she went to Vanderbilt. She taught chemistry and she teaches a chemistry course there to like all the kids who are like junior high, high school age. And then there's just amazingly talented people there. So I would say homeschool nowadays looks a lot more, um, it's like merges homeschool and traditional school. It's just on your own terms.

• 4:25:16Shawn Ryan?

  That's interesting, you know, I had this, um, I mean, we're, we're a little way, actually, we're not far out now, but we had a several families over at our house that all have kids around the same age. And I had this idea where it sounds like very similar where, except we would all pitch in. And cause everybody's concerned about what the public schools are teaching now and the private schools and who's coming. And like in this state, we have this

• 4:25:50Shawn Ryan?

  wave, ungodly amount of people from California, Illinois, New York, they're all moving here. And

• 4:26:02Shawn Ryan?

  it's raising a lot of concerns. I mean, some of these neighborhoods around here are sixty percent, sixty percent of the people in some of these neighborhoods are California. This is Tennessee.

• 4:26:11Speaker 06

  Oh, my gosh.

• 4:26:12Shawn Ryan?

  It's driving all of the locals out of here. None of them can afford to live here anymore. And we're not talking, we're even talking like well to do, young professionals, like

• 4:26:24Speaker 06

  Can't afford a house?

• 4:26:25Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, like attorneys, like we have a, a, a friend who's a, in a newer attorney who's built a hell of a business and she's got to move out of here because They can't afford it anymore. And, um, but anyways, all this influx of people moving from all these states that are completely upside down, it's raising a lot of concern to people that have our type of values. And, uh, I'm just curious what you think of this. I, I, I had this idea where we get a bunch of like-minded family friends together who

• 4:27:07Shawn Ryan?

  have kids around the same age and we all pitch in money to buy a piece of real estate. So it turns into a, everybody has skin in the game. It's a real estate investment. You turn that investment into a school.

• 4:27:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:27:25Shawn Ryan?

  It's not a business. It's a real estate investment that just so happens to be where we homeschool all of our kids.

• 4:27:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:27:34Shawn Ryan?

  And, and everybody, like I said, everybody pitches in, we all pitch in, we get a teacher and then everybody has different expertise. We got a finance guy, we've got healthcare professionals, we've got businessmen, we've got entrepreneurs, you know, we've got all these, all these specialties that don't get, especially how to, how to manage money.

• 4:27:57Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:27:58Shawn Ryan?

  Look at what the fuck is going on in this. Nobody can manage their own money. Everybody's drowning in debt because they don't know any better. And, um, and then at the end, the investment liquidates and the equity gets divvied back up into the percentage that you pitched in.

• 4:28:17Speaker 06

  I think that's a great idea. Do you know, uh, Tucker Max? Have you ever s-

• 4:28:23Shawn Ryan?

  Is that the guy that, is that the, uh, I hope they serve beer in hell guy?

• 4:28:28Speaker 06

  Yeah. He is so cool, like, um-

• 4:28:30Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know him?

• 4:28:31Speaker 06

  I know him. I'm gonna introduce you guys.

• 4:28:33Shawn Ryan?

  No way. Are you shitting me?

• 4:28:35Speaker 06

  He's come full circle. He is like, you would be shocked with this guy. Like, he, uh, has a bunch of kids, he raises sheep and he did exactly what you're talking about. They like bought or built a school with a bunch of like-minded families. I think he may be writing a book on it now, on, on like what he's doing now. But, uh, yeah, he's, he's hilarious and, uh, just a really cool person. But they basically did that, it sounds similar to what we did. And it works really well, and I think the demand signal will be off the roof, you know, because um, everyone's looking at the public school system, even in the so-called good

• 4:29:18Speaker 06

  school systems and, you know, even in like the, some of the reddest areas in the country, the public school systems are little, you know, propaganda-making machines and, I don't know, everything we just did and assumed was, was uh, normal for our childhoods. I, I think we're all coming to the realization like, oh, you can't trust that these people are giving your kids proper education and values and, I mean, my uh, if you're like, socially, I think our kids are fine. They, you know, they, they do swimming, they do

• 4:29:58Speaker 06

  theater, they do uh, all kinds of stuff in the community. And then academically, they're like off the charts. So, when you get that one-on-one time, plus my wife's amazing, but uh, you don't have to slow down if there need to move on, and you don't need to um, um, if there need extra work on some area, you don't just skip it. You, you make sure they understand it. So, I mean, my oldest, when she took her last, she took like this, um, I think it's called the Stanford Ten. It's a standardized test, and then they

• 4:30:38Speaker 06

  like, oh, categorize what is your equivalent grade average. She's, was in first grade, and they rated her in like 10.5 for, for uh, um, her like overall academic achievement. So, it's like, um. I don't know what that means, 10.5. So I'm saying she's basically in uh, like a sophomore in high school. Are you fucking serious?

• 4:31:06Speaker 06

  What? Yeah, I mean, she's, she's very intelligent, like.

• 4:31:12Speaker 06

  Holy shit, dude. When she was seven, she read every Raul Doll book, like, she's just, she's a reader. And, uh, my youngest is amazing, too, like, they're just, they're killing it, they're, um, they're gonna be so far ahead academically. I mean, I do their math, uh, just to give my wife a break, cause she was doing all of it for the whole time, and then this year I took over the math, so, and I enjoy it, and not only is it, um, is it kind of fun to teach them math, but you, you're bonding, cause you're giving them like an hour of direct, one-on-one attention. Yeah. And it's just you and them, and you're working through these problems, and, you know, they're not always into it, and you gotta motivate them and get them moving, but

• 4:31:56Speaker 06

  it's, it's just an incredible experience. How do you teach them both at the same time? So, how we do it is, um, and we've done it different ways, it used to be my wife just did it all, and then what we've evolved to is, um, my wife does, like, she does all the, like, core curriculum, and while she's doing, teaching one of the girls, I'll teach the other one math, and then we'll switch. Oh, okay. Yeah, and you can knock it out in a short amount of time, like, if you do like two hours of focused work every day, that is probably more than they're getting in eight hours at a public school with all the waiting and the disruptive children and

• 4:32:38Speaker 06

  all the other issues, it's these little mini prisons, you know, creating factory workers or whatever it's tailored for when it was, um, derived, but, uh, yeah, you just do that focused work for a couple hours, you do all kinds of other activities that are educational, like, taking care of animals, taking care of a garden, um.

• 4:33:03Speaker 06

  You know, I've taken my girls flying, like, so if they want to, you know, I'm an instructor. I can teach, they can be certified pilots before they get their driver's licenses.

• 4:33:13Shawn Ryan?

  I like how you disqualified yourself. I mean, I am an instructor.

• 4:33:16Speaker 06

  I can teach them. I know, I can do it.

• 4:33:20Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 4:33:22Speaker 06

  So like.

• 4:33:22Shawn Ryan?

  Former.

• 4:33:24Speaker 06

  I can teach them how to fly a Cessna. But yeah, so you're like, you have the core curriculum, which is a classical education, which is like what you think of, what you thought every student was learning, like the classics and basic math, like sentence structure, all this stuff is like what you're actually working on. And then outside of that is just like, what are their interests? Like, you know, singing lessons, piano lessons, swimming, all that stuff is just, that could be considered school, but it's just kind of extracurricular stuff.

• 4:34:00Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. I mean, I, I want to teach my kid how to run a business, you know, and like, both of my kids, like, I can't wait. I don't want to skip any steps, but I mean, it's, it seems to me that you can make homeschool whatever you want it to be and.

• 4:34:21Speaker 06

  Think about all the experiences you have in your life, like you're a Navy SEAL, you know, all the other things you did after that, started a business from the ground up, all these, all this knowledge and all these lessons learned, all the mistakes you made that you wish you could have avoided. And I just had this epiphany, it was like, if you don't take the time to communicate that to your children, they're, they're not going to learn it through osmosis.

• 4:34:52Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:34:52Speaker 06

  They're not going to learn it magically. Like, it just, you need to take your time and spend that time with them and teach them. And it's like, when we're out feeding animals every morning, we're, we're just talking about life, you know, like. And what they're going through and you know who they're fighting with and who's bugging them and who you know whatever it may be and uh and it's an opportunity just to bond with them you know so um I just had this epiphany at the end of my career because we don't talk about this a lot but a military career you know people always thank me for my service or thank you for your service and it's like I had a great time I did exactly what I wanted like I had so much fun uh thank my wife

• 4:35:39Speaker 06

  like the the family is the one who I think sacrifices the most for our high-speed careers and um and I just had this epiphany I'm like they're not gonna know about anything I did or care if that if we don't have a relationship

• 4:35:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah

• 4:35:58Speaker 06

  and so how you build a relationship is you are deliberate about it and you spend time with them and then you can teach them the things that you've learned in your life but if you fail to do that don't be surprised when you lose that bond and I mean we've all seen it a million times you know and then off they go into the world without that uh that anchor

• 4:36:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah

• 4:36:21Speaker 06

  you know

• 4:36:22Shawn Ryan?

  That's very true

• 4:36:26Shawn Ryan?

  Is there anything we should cover that I haven't touched?

• 4:36:29Speaker 06

  No, I think we hammered it all

• 4:36:31Shawn Ryan?

  I do have one more question It has to do with your wife but you know being out there raising and growing your own food raising and growing two little girls homeschooling them all that land to take care of how do you find time to get on a date with just your wife?

• 4:36:55Speaker 06

  Well

• 4:36:56Shawn Ryan?

  Does that happen?

• 4:36:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, so thankfully we've got parents that live there and so um they're they're they're so great you know they're as they get into their um you know seventies they just wanna spend as much time as possible with those little girls so they go over there once a week and allows us to get a date so we do you just have to prioritize it and if you have a farm which you'll find out if you if you do this like the work never ends like you could you could work on it um 24/7, you could have a whole crew and the work would never get done because it's unending.

• 4:37:39Speaker 06

  So what I decided was like, where's good enough? And then I'm gonna schedule work. You know, there's things you have to do, like feed the animals and stuff like that. Uh, but that's not that big of a deal. It's just a morning routine, you know? Um, and then you just have to decide how much time you wanna invest into additional projects. So you're like, okay, I'm gonna work out in this field X amount of hours today. And then I'm gonna be done at four. And then you just stick to it. So you just have to understand that the work will never be done. Do what you can and then move on with your life.

• 4:38:17Shawn Ryan?

  Sounds like a business. But uh, but uh, thank you for that advice. And I, I know I'm gonna wind up doing that at some point in time. Hopefully sooner than later. But um, well Dale, man, it was uh, I'm so glad we met. And um, it was an honor to interview you and get your life story and, and your experience as a pilot in combat. And um, and, and uh, and I know you're, you're, you're, you're coming out with a website and you're selling beef. And so all of that will be linked below.

• 4:38:59Shawn Ryan?

  But man, just God bless you and uh, I just wish you and your family the best.

• 4:39:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, thanks for having me. That was awesome.