Mega-Bestselling Author Kathryn Stockett on Finding Her Voice Again After ‘The Help’

BUY THE BOOK! "The Calamity Club https://amzn.to/4wCeRUg" by Kathryn Stockett New York Times best-selling author Kathryn Stockett talks with Oprah about her long-awaited novel The Calamity Club. She reveals how daunting it was to write a second novel in the wake of the success and the criticism of her smash debut hit The Help. The book sold over fifteen million copies, rose to number one and was on the best-seller list for more than two years. In 2011 it became a hit movie garnering four Oscar nominations and an Oscar win for Octavia Spencer as Best Supporting Actress. In The Calamity Club Kathryn shifts her perspective and writes a coming-of-age story set in the Depression era South about its two main characters Birdie and Meg. Kathryn explains how the cast of characters live inside her and yearn for expression through her written word. She shares her desire to tackle shocking challenges that women faced during that time. She says eventually the story evolved into an adventure about a group of bold, unbreakable women who overcome incredible hardships to reclaim their lives. The camaraderie, courage, resilience and the love between these characters will have you crying one page and laughing out loud the next. Three readers zoom in from their homes with questions for Kathryn about the book. Chapters: 00:00:00 - Welcome Kathryn Stockett, author of ‘Calamity Club’ 00:02:58 - 17 years between books 00:05:00 - Kathryn on the criticism of ‘The Help’ 00:06:03 - How it changed her writing 00:08:15 - Getting fired by her publisher 00:09:30 - Characters and plot of ‘Calamity Club’ 00:12:20 - How Kathryn found her characters 00:13:40 - Reactions to ‘Calamity Club’ 00:17:20 - Will there be a sequel? 00:20:43 - How will ‘Calamity Club’ be received? 00:25:17 - Women in the 20s 00:27:10 - Theme of found family 00:28:02 - What she wants readers to take away 00:31:55 - Advice to young women 00:35:35 - Kathryn’s favorite character 00:37:00 - Writing this story kept her sane 00:38:08 - Finishing the book Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  The criticism from The Help did shape how you started to approach this story and write this story.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  After many false starts writing this story, I got fired. My publisher fired me because it had taken me so long.

• 0:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you were still operating out of fear.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's something, I guess, scrappy inside of me that, you know, if you kick me when I'm down, I'm gonna come out of that a little bit wiser and a little bit braver.

• 0:33Oprah Winfrey?

  You're still gonna write the book even though you don't have a contract?

• 0:36Speaker 01

  I don't give up easily, I gotta say. I'm really stubborn. So when I got fired, it kind of put a fire under my ass to prove them wrong.

• 0:47Oprah Winfrey?

  This success of this book is gonna be the best revenge for the publisher that fired you. I can't even believe it.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  It was fun to write.

• 0:54Oprah Winfrey?

  It was fun to write.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  It was. It was painful, and it was fun.

• 1:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Hey, everybody. Thanks for stopping by the Oprah Podcast. A warm welcome to you all. I know millions of you read The Help, Catherine Stokic's 2009 debut novel, which became a global phenomenon, selling over 15 million copies. Not many authors get to say that in their lifetime, not in three lifetimes. Back in 2011, the actress Octavia Spencer won an Oscar for her role in the hit film, The Help, based on the book. And now Catherine Stokic's long-awaited second novel, The Calamity Club, is finally here. And I know so many of you are going to devour this book. And it's already, I can tell you, runaway bestseller. I knew that that was gonna happen.

• 1:46Oprah Winfrey?

  And I'm thrilled to be sitting on my front porch with the author, Catherine Stokic. I know you prefer everyone call you Kitty, so I will do the same. Kitty, welcome. So glad to be with you.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  So glad to be here.

• 1:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Let me just say, I fell in love with this coming-of-age story. And this is what I realized when I read this. I thought, all of my favorite books are coming-of-age stories, beginning with Toni Morrison's The Bluest I, of course, Seeley in the color purple. Maya Angelou's story is a coming of age story. I know why the caged bird sings. And of course, To Kill a Mockingbird and Scout. There's something about a young girl's voice coming of age that speaks to me so deeply because I was a southern girl coming of age. And obviously, because you have done such an incredible job with this book, that also spoke to you. This is a story of a group of bold, unbreakable women who overcome hardships to reclaim their lives.

• 2:41Oprah Winfrey?

  The love between them was just, I was crying one minute and laughing really out loud to myself the next, and then cheering. I think it's both heartbreaking and it's also hilarious at the same time. So you said writing a second novel in the shadow of the help was daunting.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  You know, living life and raising my, my daughter as a divorced woman. But I think it took me so long because I told myself I would be cautious with this next book. I would write something short and simple and not draw the kinds of criticism that some people had for the help.

• 3:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  And what I ended up with was a, a very vanilla, you know, banana flavored book, version of this book that.

• 3:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you were trying to write not to offend anybody.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 3:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  And, and I was trying to, to write something that, that had no heart in it. And what I finally had to admit myself after many years of failure was that you cannot write about Mississippi, and certainly not in the 1930s, without talking about race, without talking about discrimination and the absurdities of, of some of the rules that, that were in existence, especially in a place like Mississippi.

• 4:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, where I was born.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. And was very happy to get out of at the time that I did.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 4:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, and you understand, yes. I always say I was born at the right time. I was born in, I'm gonna start talking like Mississippi now. I was born 1954 when Brown versus Board of Education. And the luckiest thing that ever happened to me was that I left Mississippi before I ever spent a day in a segregated school. Because had I grown up in a segregated school with teachers who were teaching me that, you know, I was less than, I would not have had the confidence or the agency or authority that I managed to have as a young girl, moving to Milwaukee and never having to endure any of that. I think truly that made all

• 4:57Oprah Winfrey?

  the difference for me. And so what did you learn from the criticism of The Help? And what did you understand as the crux of that criticism?

• 5:05Speaker 01

  I'm of two minds about The Help. I mean, on the one hand, I get it. I understand the criticism. I understand that it put some people off, that a white woman was writing a story that they perceived as a black woman's story.

• 5:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Story to tell.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  To tell. But the truth is, it was the story that I needed to write to answer a lot of the questions that I had about my childhood and about where I came from and about the things that I was taught. And I understand the criticism, but it was a story that just came out of me. And I don't know how to quiet the voices in my head. We write what we write because we have to.

• 5:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Did the criticism cause you to approach this book differently or make different decisions? You said in the beginning, you were writing cautiously, and that it turned out to be something flattened, and it didn't feel like it was coming from a real place. So were you conscious of the criticism from The Help as you were writing Calamity?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I wrote The Help, it was just me kind of pouring my heart out onto the page with no expectations of me. And

• 6:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  I didn't think anybody was going to read it. And I had 60 rejections from agents to back that up. And when I sat down to write the second one, instead of just me sitting in a room with the page alone, this time it was me in a room with all those readers and all those critics in that room, kind of staring me down.

• 6:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. With expectations.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  With expectations.

• 6:52Oprah Winfrey?

  With expectations. What are you going to do now?

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. You said, "I'll probably get in some trouble for this one, a fate I'm drawn to." Above all, the story embraces a woman's right to determine her own fate, which feels increasingly relevant these days. Why do you think you're drawn to getting in trouble?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a great question. Who knows? I was just born this way. I, uh, I feel like I've been in trouble most of my life for, for something.

• 7:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  And I think it also has to do with the fact that, uh, I, you know, I have a sense of humor and I'm going to always search for the humor in some of the darkest moments. And I don't see how people get through life without looking for the humor. And it's, uh, you know, sometimes it works for me. Sometimes it kind of, I'm told I'm very hard to be married to.

• 7:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Is that what your ex-husband said?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 7:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. So, so tell me this. You were saying the criticism from the help did shape how you started to approach this story and write the story. Were you finally able to let that go, to shake that off and just delve into the lives of these women you've now written about in calamity?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  After many false starts writing this story,

• 8:23Speaker 01

  I, I got fired. My publisher fired me because it had taken me so long, because I guess the material wasn't something they wanted. And that was the old version. That was the vanilla version.

• 8:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  And I really, I felt like I had let down myself. I felt like I'd let down my family.

• 8:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you were still operating out of fear?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:46Oprah Winfrey?

  And criticism.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  When I got fired, when I lost my contract, I really felt like I had... Failed everybody. And there's something, I guess, scrappy inside of me that, you know, if you kick me when I'm down, I'm gonna come out of that a little bit wiser and a little bit braver. And once that happened, I was able to just sit down and write the whole book over from a very fresh perspective.

• 9:15Oprah Winfrey?

  So I want to talk about the story without giving too much away. I have to say, I've now given this book to so many of my friends who say, I wish it wouldn't end. I could not believe how many times I laughed. I could not believe these characters. Would you set up the characters in plot? Because as I was saying earlier, I am drawn to stories with coming-of-age southern girls, and Meg is a character like we've never seen before.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. I really like writing in the voice of a child because a child can see through the bull shit. Can I say that?

• 9:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, you can.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And they're gonna speak truths that sometimes an adult loses sight of. So because of the plot of this story, sort of the punchline, so to speak, that you know what it is.

• 10:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  I also needed an adult narrator. So I was able to mix the two narrators, the 11-year-old girl and, you know, the 24-year-old, kind of old-made unmarried woman, also from Mississippi. And I felt like that way I could give two perspectives of one story.

• 10:28Oprah Winfrey?

  And so I love this passage about young Meg's life in the orphanage. On page 127, you write, "Sometimes I feel old." Oh, this is what Meg is saying, at 11 years old. "Sometimes I feel old, old in my skin and my bones. I remember when I turned nine at my mama's house. I could still feel a little eight left in me. But when I turned 10 in this place, there was not any nine left to spare. Now I'm afraid I might already have used up the rest of my 11 and most of my 12, too." So I just love that line. How do you come up with, "I could still feel a little eight left in me"?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  I don't know. Who knows where, where, you know, the muse speaks to you, how, how the words come. I don't know. I wish I did.

• 11:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Meg suffers abuse at the orphanage and she describes it this way. It's, it's like she's trying to whip the hope out of me. All the while she's whispering, dirty filter girl. After 15 licks, Ms. Garnett sits down in the chair panting. She only quits because her arm gets tired. Were these scenes difficult for you to write?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Not difficult, but that line, I wanted the reader to see firsthand that sometimes you can't whip the hope out of somebody. Genuine hope is powerful.

• 11:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. On page 136, you write this about how Meg feels. All this noise inside us and we can't make a sound. I felt like so many young girls, boys, people feel this way. Those 11 little words speak volumes for so many people in similar situations. So you were saying that for her, but saying it also for so many people.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  So many people that have been silenced, that don't have the chance to speak up. I guess it's why I, I write.

• 12:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  To have a chance to, to say my piece.

• 12:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's, it's just a quick tap of the subscribe button. And that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening. Time for a quick break. When we come back, readers share their favorite moments and what had them L O L O L ing. That's next.

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• 14:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm talking with bestselling author Catherine Stockard about her new novel, La Calamity Club. Ugh, is it a hoot. It's both poignant and laugh-out-loud-for-real funny. I know you're gonna love it. Great for this summer reading. Now, back to the conversation. So, you knew you had, so if you were having Meg, you know you needed an adult to be a counterpart for what comes later on in the story, that all that crazy calamity stuff that happens. But where did she actually come from? When did you first hear her voice?

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Oh, probably from my own daughter. Just hearing that childhood voice and saying things to me that, you know, you wonder, where did you come from?

• 14:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, where did that come from?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And so, how did she start to form? And did she start to speak to you? And did you write every day?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I did. I wrote almost every day, every day that I could.

• 15:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. So now, you've been fired, you've lost your contract.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:06Oprah Winfrey?

  But you're still gonna write the book, even though you don't have a contract.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  I don't give up easily, I gotta say. I'm really stubborn. So, when I, when I got fired, it kind of put a fire under my ass to prove them wrong or something. It took me a minute to get out of, you know,

• 15:25Oprah Winfrey?

  This success of this book is going to be the best revenge for the publisher that fired you. I can't even believe it.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Well, it was fun to write.

• 15:33Oprah Winfrey?

  It was fun to write.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  It was. It was painful. It was fun.

• 15:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. All right. We gave a few lucky readers the copy of The Calamity Club. And Jamila is joining us now from North Carolina. Jamila, hi.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  Hello. So wonderful to meet you, Oprah and Catherine.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 15:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Jamila, I'm so excited to hear your take on this story.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  I love this story. I'm a Southern girl, too. I'm from Mobile, Alabama. And Catherine Mobile got a tiny shout out in the book.

• 16:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 03

  And just really reflecting on this time and places I've been and visited, because I grew up on the Gulf Coast. So all those areas, Biloxi, Jackson, New Orleans, Oxford, very familiar to me. And it was a wonderful kind of flashback into time for me.

• 16:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, I gave this to three of my Southern friends who were just over the moon. They couldn't even. I think there's, everybody's going to love the book. But I will tell you that if you're a Southern woman, I think it resonates more deeply. I don't, I'm not sure why. Jamila, can you tell us why?

• 16:38Speaker 03

  I think it's because you know these stories. So my grandmother, she grew up cleaning white people's houses.

• 16:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  And so some of these stories were very aligned. And Ophelia in the book

• 16:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  kind of reminded me a little bit of my grandmother. So I think we have some, some ways we relate to it. Very real.

• 16:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, me too. My grandmother grew up cleaning white people's houses in Mississippi. So I understand very much. Do you have a question for Kitty?

• 17:04Speaker 03

  I do. So tears welled up in my eyes at the end. I was so happy and excited for Charlie and Meg. But I must tell you, I honestly was like, what, what has happened next with the rest of them? What happened with Bertie and Jack? And do they have a future together? What about Rory and his second stint in New Orleans? What about Garnet? Does she get retribution for what she did? What about Rory? Like, again, like, is he, what is he, what happens when he comes out? There's so. characters, right?

• 17:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and were you worried? I was so worried that when Jack found out what Bertie was doing, he would then sort of think that she was some kind of soiled woman or something and wouldn't want to be around her if he found out that that that that's what she was doing.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  I was very worried about that.

• 17:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Were you worried?

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Especially after the gift he had given her, which we won't give away.

• 17:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  Right? I I was like, this is going to be a terrible revelation for him. But what a way he handled it.

• 17:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, what a way. What a way. And were you worried too? Were you worried too, Jamila, that the sheriff was going to come every night?

• 18:07Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, I just could not imagine how, again, when they were going into town too, for anything, to mail a letter, to get food. I was worried, like you, I was just hoping, can we make it to the next day?

• 18:19Oprah Winfrey?

  And I couldn't believe they used her bedroom. I couldn't believe they used.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  I couldn't believe it either. And the whole, we just need to make it a few more days. And then when it got to that last day, Oprah, I breathed a sigh of relief, like, we made it.

• 18:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  We made it. We can shut it down.

• 18:34Oprah Winfrey?

  No, but what about when the man's coming down the stairs? The man's coming down the stairs and she realizes what's going on in the house? What about that?

• 18:41Speaker 03

  And Mrs. Tard? Oh, my gosh, I was worried.

• 18:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, what about that?

• 18:45Speaker 03

  Oh, just really, it was so much going on.

• 18:48Oprah Winfrey?

  I thought Mrs. Tard, Mrs. Tard's going to have a heart attack when she realizes what's going on in this house.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Exactly, but you see so much maturation in all the women, given the times.

• 18:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  And I think there was a way she came to appreciate what needed to be done. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

• 19:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely. So I know you have a question, but tell me, did you have a favorite character?

• 19:08Speaker 03

  I think, like you, everyone loves Meg, but I really did like Bertie. I identified with, you know, kind of her having to be a heroine in so many ways. You know, she never made it back home from from what we saw, right? And this is why I'd love to to know what happens next. And so you you kind of gave me the end to ask, are we thinking about a sequel? Um, I really want to know what happens to some of these other characters, Catherine, because while we know Charlie and Meg are probably hopefully doing well together, what about Esmeralda? What about Garnet? What about Rory? What about Bertie and Jack?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Let me just say, y'all are the best readers. Y'all are a writer's dream. I don't know if there's going to be a sequel. I kind of doubt it. I I uh, I don't want to put too hard of a finish on, you know, a story. And I I like to leave. You know, leave the reader wondering a little bit.

• 20:06Oprah Winfrey?

  But Kitty, but Kitty, you know, you can do what Elizabeth Strout has done with all with,

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Oh, she's such a great writer.

• 20:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, Olive Kidrich.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:15Oprah Winfrey?

  And everybody in that town ended up having in some form or another their own story and were in other books. I mean, there is no reason, Kitty, that you cannot continue this story with these characters moving on. I mean, literally, Bertie, what happens to Bertie and Jack and Bertie and Jack's family, or all the other, or any of the other women? Don't you agree? Don't you agree, Jamila?

• 20:37Speaker 03

  I completely agree. I mean, even some of the offshoot parts, like Lucille, what happens to her? What happens to the Heidelberg's? Like, you have so many places you can take this, Catherine, so my vote is for a sequel, but absolutely up to you.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 20:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely up to you.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 20:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for your enthusiasm.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 20:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, don't you want to pass it on to everybody? Don't you want to say, everybody?

• 20:58Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I think everyone should read this. And while it seems daunting, right, with the number of pages, once you get going, it just moves, Catherine. It's, you can't put it down, or then you, like you said, Oprah, you want to put it down because you're almost scared of what's going to happen next.

• 21:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 21:12Speaker 03

  It's such a delight. So I hope everyone picks it up and gives it a read.

• 21:16Oprah Winfrey?

  It actually, I think, left me with less judgment of women's choices to do what they need to do until they can do what they actually want to do. Did you feel that too, Jamila?

• 21:29Speaker 03

  I did, that, you know, there's a character that has to leave her job because of men, right?

• 21:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  And men taking opportunities. And juxtaposing that with what the ladies in the C-Club had to do, right? I think it absolutely gives you that confidence to know and listen, everyone should read the story and take away from, do what you have to do. And women have been doing it for years, and it's a reminder of how important it is to walk with conviction as women, to keep moving forward.

• 21:55Oprah Winfrey?

  To keep moving forward. Jamila, thank you. Thank you. All right, spread the book

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 22:00Oprah Winfrey?

  story around, right?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 22:02Oprah Winfrey?

  The Calamity Club. And so, are you one of those writers that has a schedule?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  If I don't write almost every day, I lose my momentum.

• 22:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  I'm a big believer that the voices are always there. I have to clear my schedule, I have to clear my palate, just to be able to hear them. And, you know, it's kind of like... Just because you turn off the radio doesn't mean the music stopped playing. So, yeah, if I lose my thread and I lose my frequency.

• 22:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you got so much criticism, well, not so much, but you got criticism after The Help was such a great success. So you get criticism for writing about black women because you were a white woman. Did you decide, okay, well, I'm only gonna write about white women?

• 22:46Speaker 01

  I really tried.

• 22:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  I really tried.

• 22:48Oprah Winfrey?

  But you can't write about white women in the South without putting some black women in there.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  This is true, and especially in Mississippi.

• 22:54Oprah Winfrey?

  In Mississippi?

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Fifty-fifty.

• 22:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And so how did, were you worried about that, bringing the black characters in?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I'm still worried.

• 23:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  I'm still worried. It's, I'm a southerner. I was born to worry.

• 23:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And what are you worried about?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Just the same things that happened with The Help, you know? I am a white woman and it's, you know, it's a story about, about white people and black people and the relationships that they have, The Help was, and a little bit in this one, too.

• 23:27Oprah Winfrey?

  When that criticism came, were you hurt by it? Were you, you say you were shocked by it.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  I was surprised.

• 23:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Surprised by it, yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you feel that that criticism was valid?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  It was, you know, told from the perspective of only the, through the white eyes.

• 23:44Oprah Winfrey?

  The white gaze.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  The white gaze, exactly. And I'm a white woman. The screenplay was written by a white man, a good friend of mine. But at the same time, for a lot of people in America, it was a first step. It was, it was the first introduction to the complexities of the relationships between blacks and whites in the South.

• 24:13Oprah Winfrey?

  And do you feel differently now about who is allowed to tell what story?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  I don't try to overanalyze it very much. All I can say is that as a writer, I don't really have control over what I write. I write with my heart. The voices come out of me.

• 24:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, some people say you obviously have control over what you write, but you're saying you don't have control in terms of what your heart wants to speak to. That's what I hear you saying.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  That's true, yes.

• 24:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  That's true. And, and I've wondered sometimes if, if...

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Maybe the issue wasn't that I wrote the help. It was that it became such a success. Maybe that was the problem.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  It's hard to think about telling an artist, no, no, that's not allowed. You can't create that.

• 25:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  That's crossing the line.

• 25:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  But again, I get it.

• 25:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Because where would we be if artists aren't allowed to express what's inside them?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  And some say that the role of art should make you a little uncomfortable. I see both sides.

• 25:22Oprah Winfrey?

  OK. Let's talk about the Calamity Club. I think readers will feel transported back to the South in the 1930s, from the slang to the language, to the clothing. How did you craft that?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  I had to do a lot of research. I had to do interviews. I looked at a lot of Eudora Welty's photographs and read her stories. I had to really immerse myself in the time. And I think I got most of it right. I really wanted the reader to feel like the air of the time and feel, just feel like, know what it felt like to be a woman in 1930 in Mississippi.

• 26:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Where did all of these women come from? I mean, it's a cast of characters in this story. How did this story come to you, Kitty?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  All I can say is that my characters kind of tell me what they're going to do. I go into writing a story, knowing maybe about 10% about what's going to happen.

• 26:24Oprah Winfrey?

  So what did you know of Calamity Club? First of all, where'd that name come from?

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Well, Mark Twain uses it. And I thought it was just a great word of the time.

• 26:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Calamity.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Calamity is a calamity. And, you know, the C-Club is, has a little special meaning to me as well. And, you know, if you read the book, you'll stumble across that. But I don't know where we get these ideas. All these voices in my head.

• 26:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Do they come one at a time? Do they come as a group?

• 26:52Speaker 01

  I don't know. They just show up and they tell me what they're going to do. And sometimes they say that they're going to do this. And I say, no, you're not. I don't want to write that. And then what did they do? They go, do it anyway.

• 27:03Oprah Winfrey?

  OK, so Meg came to you because of your daughter?

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:07Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, OK. Birdie came from where?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  I think Birdie came from me.

• 27:11Oprah Winfrey?

  OK.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Just someone who speaks her mind and often gets in trouble for it.

• 27:17Oprah Winfrey?

  OK. Charlie, Meg's mother is in prison, declared unfit and sterilized against her will. In your research, you discovered in the 30s, so many women were often diagnosed as, the word that you used in the book, feeble-minded or promiscuous. And what else did you learn about women in that period?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Oh, so much.

• 27:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Tough time to be a woman.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  I don't think there's been enough written about this subject. But in the 1920s and the 1930s, the eugenics movement was just starting to heat up. And the idea was that by sterilizing certain people, they could cleanse the population of what they called undesirables. And these were people that might have epilepsy, that might have autism, people that they perceived as having a lower intelligence. They thought by sterilizing them, they could stop the procreation of these types of people. And the one that really stood out to me was that in Mississippi,

• 28:24Speaker 01

  a woman could be sterilized for being promiscuous. And that one stopped me in my tracks. I mean, I guess the idea was that if you're promiscuous, well, then you must be stupid. And if you're stupid, then because it's hereditary, you're going to have all these children that then the state of Mississippi, and so many states adopted these laws, would have to then take care of.

• 28:54Oprah Winfrey?

  As you're saying that, I'm thinking, glad I got out of Mississippi.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  I don't blame you.

• 29:00Oprah Winfrey?

  It's time for a break. Up next, Catherine. Kitty talks about the power of hope and learning from our mistakes. More on that when we come back.

• 29:14Speaker 04

  This summer, serve up the cookout classics. Craft mayo and dressing. Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing or zesty Italian. Serve smooth, craveably creamy potato salads with mayo. We all know it's not a cookout without craft.

• 29:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Thanks for joining me on the Oprah Podcast. Nearly 17 years after her mega hit novel, The Help, you're going to love, love, love reading Catherine Stokic's new book, The Calamity Club. Let's get back to our conversation. Fay is zooming in from Ohio. And I hear this idea of Fay, did you laugh? How many times did you laugh out loud? Could you even count?

• 29:53Speaker 05

  Too many to count.

• 29:54Oprah Winfrey?

  That's what I say about this book. It will have you howling with yourself, really. And I hear this idea of chosen family resonated for you.

• 30:02Speaker 05

  Absolutely. There's a line in the book that completely stopped me when I read it. It perfectly embodies the theme of found family. And it reads, "This slap-together band of misfits made me feel, for the first time, that I truly belonged. How the hell, I wondered, did I ever get so lucky?" Catherine, what inspired you to explore the theme of found family in this story? And what do you want readers to feel when they close this book?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  For somebody like Birdie in the book, that's what she's looking for, a group of people where she feels like she fits in. And so many of us are looking for that. And I think that's a reasonable thing to ask for in life. And she finds it with, yeah, a group of misfits. And it surprises her. As for what I want the reader to take away, I want the reader to feel motivated to protect women's rights. We can't afford to lose any more ground than we already have.

• 31:08Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 31:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, you know what I loved in the very beginning of the story? When we go to the orphanage for the first time, well, there's so many things I appreciated about this book. Well, first of all, it's set in the South, and I'm from the South, and Meg is Southern, and she's 11, and she's sparky and bright and all those things, and she's at the orphanage. And when you walk into the orphanage, one of the pivotal locations in the story, the sign out front reads, "Welcome to the Lafayette County Orphan Asylum for Girls, founded 1927. We do not accept coloreds, Indians, Jews, Mexicans, Oriental types, twins, anyone who

• 31:51Oprah Winfrey?

  has or has had leprosy, consumption, missing limbs, or hair lip. No boys, no sick children, or anyone of a retarded nature. No girls over the age of 12, no women in the family way. We do not deliver babies here. May the Lord bless you all." That sets quite the tone. Weren't you struck by that, Fay?

• 32:12Speaker 05

  Absolutely. I remember bookmarking that part of it and going back to that.

• 32:17Oprah Winfrey?

  That tells you everything you want to know about the prejudices of the time. So I want to know, did you find signs like this for real in your research?

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Well, no, but I did know that these absurdities existed. And I, you know, I made a choice. I said, I can try to stretch that point out for 600 pages, or on the very first page, I can stick it in a sign on the wall.

• 32:50Oprah Winfrey?

  To let you know what you're dealing with.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  And let the reader know what they're in for.

• 32:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And I think that set the tone. We know what we're in for. We're going to walk into a world of prejudices here. And I think Meg handled them all so beautifully. Thank you, Fay. How many people are you passing the book on to? I mean, I couldn't wait to pass the book on to as many people as I could.

• 33:11Speaker 05

  So many. I'll be recommending this to everyone. It will be my top book of the year.

• 33:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 33:16Speaker 05

  I'm already calling it now.

• 33:17Oprah Winfrey?

  I think so.

• 33:18Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 33:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you so much. Thanks, Fay. Heather also read The Calamity Club. Heather, hi there.

• 33:23Speaker 06

  Hi, how are you?

• 33:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi, hi, hi. Did you read it all in one sitting? Or did you keep coming back to it laughing out loud?

• 33:29Speaker 06

  I almost did. I was actually on a flight to San Francisco. So I read it the entire flight there, the entire flight back, and just consumed it as quickly as possible.

• 33:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, did you laugh out loud?

• 33:39Speaker 06

  It's definitely a book where you're laughing, you're crying, you're feeling such mixed emotions, you're feeling hopeful. It's beautiful.

• 33:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Beautiful.

• 33:46Speaker 06

  And I, you know, there was definitely a moment for me when I read the line, um, what if we fail? And the quick response was what if we succeed? And I think that, for me, really resonated because it's really easy to focus on all the things that can go wrong.

• 34:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 06

  Rather than trusting in what will go right. And in my own life, I've had a lot of detours that have changed the course of the path that I thought my life would take. And reading this book definitely felt like validation of, and I think that's really something that women, especially we, need to focus on, to trust that journey. And through that, really learning how confident and brave and strong we really are if we just trust ourselves rather than, you know, what we may see in front of us.

• 34:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, they're all in that, they're all in that house, trusting each other. That was some crazy, that was a calamitous time in that house. Do you have a question for Kitty?

• 34:45Speaker 06

  I do, I do. Catherine, my question for you is, many of these, um, characters faced really big decisions and crossroads. What would your advice be for young women? And to encourage them to trust in themselves rather than waiting for the universe to give them this perfect sign that everything's gonna be okay?

• 35:06Speaker 01

  You know, I think a lot of women are afraid to make a mistake. And it's a good question because I think that that's One of the reasons why it took me 17 years to write a second book, we, you know, we tend to overcompensate. We overthink it. When the truth is, sometimes just making a decision is just as good as making the, you know, perfectly exact right decision. Part of this is because, you know, women haven't had the rights that we do and the rights that we deserve for that long. And so, we're afraid to make mistakes.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  We might lose it. And I just want to tell women that it's okay to make a mistake. That's how we learn.

• 35:59Oprah Winfrey?

  That's how we learn, Heather. Thank you so much. Thank you.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Thank you, Heather.

• 36:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you for reading all of those pages. Aren't you glad you did, though? Aren't you glad you did? I just love this book.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  So glad.

• 36:11Oprah Winfrey?

  I love this moment in the book where, I won't tell you what has happened, but I just love this sentence where Meg says, "Nobody needs to remind me to count my blessings. I could count to 100 for what I've done in just the last two hours." And, oh, it is just all so spectacular. Yeah, what does this say about Meg?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  That she's still full of wonder and that she has hope. She doesn't lose hope through the whole book. And hope is so powerful.

• 36:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Well, see, the idea to bring all of these women together, who were sort of outcasts and the outsiders, and to show that together they could build something that was really powerful, even though that something would not be what most people would consider, you know, a great business.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  But it was a profitable one.

• 36:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, it was a profitable one, yes.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Yes, we're all stronger when we come together.

• 37:04Oprah Winfrey?

  I couldn't believe they were going to do it. I started to get so nervous. You know, I hate to think for, I didn't want anything to go wrong with them. And I started, I started to get nervous. I actually put the book down. I thought, are they, is she actually going to go through with it? When they left the house and they went to look for her son, and then there's Birdie left in that house. I thought, she's not going to do it. She's not going to do it. She's not going to do it. And then she did.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  She did it.

• 37:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And every night, I was waiting on the sheriff to come. Every night I thought the sheriff was coming.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Oh, you're such a good reader.

• 37:34Oprah Winfrey?

  I thought the sheriff was coming, every night. And I thought, at first, I thought the guy standing outside, he had to be the sheriff. But if he was a sheriff, he wouldn't have been able to just stand outside and watch. He would have brought everybody in and they would have arrested him. So I couldn't figure out who that guy was until the end. I still didn't know that that's who it was.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 37:51Oprah Winfrey?

  I did not, yeah. But every night, I was so worried for them, every night. We won't give away the plot about the way, but about halfway through the book, there is a draw dropping secret reveal. So when you started writing, did you know what the key moments would be? Are they plot, did you plot them out?

• 38:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:10Oprah Winfrey?

  No, you just let the characters?

• 38:12Speaker 01

  I was just along for the ride.

• 38:13Oprah Winfrey?

  You were along for the ride. This makes me crazy when writers say this.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I really believe the characters are driving the boat. They're driving the story. They're telling me what they want to do.

• 38:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Who did you love the most? Who are the characters you loved the most?

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I like Flossie. I really enjoyed writing her because I felt like she was so vulnerable.

• 38:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, she was.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  And a little pathetic and so honest. At least that's how I tried to write her. And I hope that's the way that she came across.

• 38:45Oprah Winfrey?

  She did, yeah. So that was your favorite? Well, Meg was definitely my favorite, of course. And so you quote Emily Dickinson and her famous poem, where Meg says, "Hope is the thing with feathers that purchases in the soul and sings the tune without the words and never stops at all." What do you want readers to actually, or did you want readers to know anything about hope when you were writing this book?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Oh, it is so powerful. I wanted to give Meg kind of a theme song that she could hear in her head on the darkest nights in the orphanage. And so I put that poem in her armor to bring out when she needed it.

• 39:30Oprah Winfrey?

  It's time for one last break, y'all. When we return, Catherine Stockit explains why she feels it's her duty as a writer and a human being to imagine what it's like to stand in another person's shoes. Come on back for that.

• 39:46Speaker 07

  This Father's Day, do more with Dad and spend less with low prices guaranteed at The Home Depot. Get him fired up with the new grill and accessories, like the Next Grill 5 burner for just $299, so you can spend more time together while he becomes the grill master he was always meant to be. Or build memories with savings on top brand power tools, so you can tackle projects side by side. Gift more and do more together this Father's Day with help from The Home Depot. Exclusions apply. See HomeDepot.com/price match for details.

• 40:15Oprah Winfrey?

  We're back with bestselling author Catherine Stockett. If you know somebody who loves to read a rip-roaring tale and wants a great book for this summer about spirited women, share this episode with them. Now, back to the conversation. In the author's note, you say that as a writer and as a human being, I believe it is my duty to imagine, I think you say this in the beginning of the book, you say, as a writer and as a human being, I believe it's my duty to imagine what it feels like to stand in another person's shoes, to stay sane. I put those imaginings on paper. The calamity club is the result. How did writing these women's stories keep you sane?

• 40:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Because it actually drove you a little insane, I'm sure.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Well, as for the end note, I have to say, I think they should teach it in school, that as a human being, it is so important to imagine what it feels like to have someone else's problems.

• 41:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  But, you know, I think it's also vital to imagine what it feels like to have someone else's successes. It's what gives us hope. There's just some voices inside of me that gotta get out. And when I write books, they come out.

• 41:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you feel like, "I've been redeemed and I've been released," that song? Did you feel that this was a releasing when you completed these 800 pages?

• 41:58Speaker 01

  I was very relieved when I finished the book, yes, after so many years.

• 42:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, we aren't going to give away what happens to these characters at the end, but I will say, I was in a puddle, really. Listen, did you always know you wanted to resolve the story this way?

• 42:14Speaker 01

  A little bit. I wanted to write a slightly different ending, maybe one that wasn't quite as it turns out.

• 42:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  But I'm OK with the ending. I've made peace with it.

• 42:26Oprah Winfrey?

  You've made peace with it?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you. Kitty Stockett, Catherine Stockett, she likes to be called Kitty. Thank you for this beautiful breathtaking. It's just really.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Thank you. It is an honor to be here. Thank you.

• 42:40Oprah Winfrey?

  The Calamity Club is available now, wherever books are sold. So, yes, it's a lot of pages, Gail. It's a lot of pages, but you're gonna love every one. So, Jamila, thank you. Fay, Heather, thank you. Thanks for reading with us and for your thoughtful questions. We'll see you next week. Go well, everybody. I hope you all read The Calamity Club. I'm telling you, it is one of the great reads, and particularly for summer. I think you're gonna just fall in love with the characters like I did. So good for the summer to share with your friends. And you can buy it instantly now, right now. I just love the way this happens. If you scan the QR code on your screen, you can get the book. Happy reading.

• 43:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening.