The Top Five Movies of 2025

Sean and Amanda are joined by Chris Ryan and Adam Nayman to share their five favorite films from the year. But before diving in, they cover a handful of movie news items, including the updated rumors regarding the potential sale of Warner Bros. (1:25), the massive box office success of ‘Zootopia 2’ (5:44), and the speculation that Leonardo DiCaprio has been cast in Michael Mann’s ‘Heat 2’ (11:15). Then, they each share their top five favorite movies from 2025 (25:20). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Chris Ryan and Adam Nayman Producer: Jack Sanders Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. A State Farm agent can help you choose the coverage you need. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.® Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sean Fennessey?

  This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Marketers know that feeling. They optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that, bull spend. Instead, why not invest in what looks good to your CFO? LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. Reach the right buyers with LinkedIn Ads. You can target by company, industry, job title and more. So, cut the bull spend, advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com/thebigpicture. That's LinkedIn.com/thebigpicture.

• 0:46Sean Fennessey?

  Terms and conditions apply.

• 1:02Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fennessey.

• 1:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 1:04Sean Fennessey?

  And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the best movies of 2025. Chris Ryan is here. Adam Namon will join us shortly to talk about the year in film. And we will all share our top five favorite movies of the year. But first, so much news has been happening. We had Thanksgiving holiday and then we had a crazy Avatar: The Way of Water watch along podcast. We did speak of some news, very little film news in that conversation.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Yogurt news, weightlifting news, college football coaching carousel.

• 1:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, as always, critically acclaimed conversation among the three of us. Thanks to everyone who participated in that. Let's get into some real news in the world of Hollywood.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Imagine if that was your first pod after reading the Talk of the Town piece.

• 1:45Sean Fennessey?

  I hadn't really thought about that.

• 1:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, welcome to The Big Picture.

• 1:49Sean Fennessey?

  Whoops.

• 1:50Amanda Dobbins?

  This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie, there's that last minute scramble to make it all come together? From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast, free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to amazon.com/prime to shop now.

• 2:13Sean Fennessey?

  Speaking of Hollywood, the latest breaking news in the WBD sale saga, Warner Brothers is for sale. They have accepted bids. We talked about this on our sentimental value episode. Kind of a bummer discussion. I'm not sure if this discussion will get much better, but news this morning, lawyers for Paramount Skydance sent a letter to Warner Brothers Discovery CEO David Zaslove, expressing, quote, "grave concerns about the alleged unfairness of this process." The attorney suggested the Warner Brothers Discovery Board has, quote, "embarked on a myopic process with a predetermined outcome that favors a single bidder." And we were meant to believe that that's Netflix. Thoughts?

• 2:50Amanda Dobbins?

  We're in hell. I mean, we are like, we are, we're in hell in many levels. The first that now we are all a party to the legal maneuverings of two studios. Like, every choice that I have made in my life is to not hear about the letter that lawyers for Paramount Skydance sent to lawyers for Warner Brothers Discovery. Like, I just don't want to be involved. However, I am, against my will, on top of that, the letter is going to invite another person into the process, who has always been involved, but I don't want to hear from him, that being the President of the United States. Again, not my fault.

• 3:30Amanda Dobbins?

  And then, we're gonna have to sell a movie studio to another movie studio or another corporation, which means consolidation, job loss, and more people I don't respect in charge of artistic decisions. So, thumb down.

• 3:47Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, now here's the greatest opportunity to zag in the history of podcasting.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  As a guy who's thinking about changing his allegiances to Newcastle United anyway, I have a lot of time for petrostate wealth, you know what I mean? Like, there's a land of opportunity out there.

• 4:04Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, so does that mean you're going Big Ellison or Big Netflix?

• 4:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, I actually-

• 4:07Speaker 02

  In some ways, he's always been Big Ellison.

• 4:09Sean Fennessey?

  That's true, very true.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Andy and I have talked about this on The Watch. We're, we believe in Philadelphia and we believe in Comcast Universal. The Xfinity Tower hovers over the Philadelphia skyline, and I pray at the altar of Big Brian. I hope he-

• 4:25Sean Fennessey?

  Big Brian Roberts, the CEO of Comcast. I don't know if anybody knows him as Big Brian.

• 4:31Sean Fennessey?

  At the bars across Philly, we go, if you guys see Brian in New York today.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I am, I, I still think that there is a lot of shoes to drop.

• 4:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  This is also going to be, uh, played out in court in Delaware, which is something I'm parroting that I read, but does sound unpleasant. I think this is going to take a really long time. And I think to Amanda's point, mentioning, uh, old DJT, he's going to milk this for as much screen time as he can get.

• 4:55Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I do think that there's a, a very good possibility that this business is not closed until he's out of office. But that's just that, well, okay.

• 5:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Like some Ken, I mean, just again.

• 5:06Sean Fennessey?

  That's a pot safe American discussion.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Shag on that.

• 5:10Sean Fennessey?

  Stay as long as you like. Um, I think this, this is all unfortunate.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:17Sean Fennessey?

  The whole, this whole story bums me out and, uh, I, I do think we have to talk about it because it is really consequential to what we do.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  However, business is going as usual while all this stuff is happening. Like I will say.

• 5:28Sean Fennessey?

  In the world of Hollywood.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  It just seems like there are shows getting greenlit.

• 5:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, you say you got some projects to announce.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  You know, you guys thought Megatron was buried at sea, but.

• 5:39Sean Fennessey?

  Megatron returns, but you play Megatron with no makeup.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Just like as I'm dressed.

• 5:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 5:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Imagining someone.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Form you'd find, uh, reassuring.

• 5:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm imagining someone tuning into this podcast for the first time when you tried to hold your breath.

• 5:57Amanda Dobbins?

  For seven and a half minutes, like Kate went.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  We really fucked up by not having a tank of water. I just, I've, I've been reassured lightly by the swath of HBO renewals, by the swath of announcements of new Warner Brothers movies or whatever. And, and so I'm not putting my head in the sand. I think that this is going to be very difficult for an already beleaguered industry, but, um, I don't think it's going to get resolved anytime soon, personally.

• 6:21Sean Fennessey?

  You know, out of all of these movie studios, the one that is riding highest right now is Disney. And the reason for that is it has a true juggernaut at the box office right now.

• 6:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Amazing segue.

• 6:31Sean Fennessey?

  Thank you very much. Zootopia 2, which we have not had a chance to discuss yet on this podcast. It was the big film that opened over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend. And I knew that this movie would do very well. I drafted it in my movie fantasy league. I had a strong feeling like it was going to contend not just for the animated feature Oscar, but that it was going to do very well box office wise. My daughter having seen it, knowing kids have gotten obsessed with it on Disney Plus over the nine years since the first film. But this movie made $570 million in one weekend, including 220-plus million in China, which is something that happened all the time circa 2018.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:05Sean Fennessey?

  And now never happens. And guess what? The movie's also good. And I was delighted to go see it with my child. We had a lot of fun.

• 7:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm excited to go see it with my child.

• 7:15Sean Fennessey?

  I think your son will love it.

• 7:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Who watched Zootopia, the original, at least six times.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Really?

• 7:20Amanda Dobbins?

  On our flights to and from Philadelphia, which once Brian Roberts sorts out Warner Brothers, could he also fix the airlines going from LAX to... Like, just come on, it's a major metropolitan city. What are we doing?

• 7:31Speaker 02

  If you've seen Taylor Sheridan's 1883, you know travel used to be much more difficult than taking American Airlines direct, but I take your point.

• 7:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Anyway, Knox watched it over and over again and laughed at the sloshy and every single time, which is...

• 7:45Sean Fennessey?

  It's great stuff.

• 7:46Amanda Dobbins?

  So I knew there was some engagement, but I mentioned to you, I was curious like how much he was retaining of this story and what's going on. So I asked him the other night, hey Knox, what's happened, what happens in Zootopia? And he had, he said something about the rabbit and someone else have to go on a chase and then someone yells at them and then other things happen, which I thought that was good.

• 8:07Sean Fennessey?

  Good start.

• 8:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Sean Fennessey?

  Good start.

• 8:08Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean...

• 8:09Sean Fennessey?

  Almost podcast ready.

• 8:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Identified two characters. This honestly beat my expectations.

• 8:14Sean Fennessey?

  Those characters are Judy, Hops, the bunny, police officer. First film, a little bit of cop again in there. And then also the sort of sly fox character, Nick, who's played by Jason Bateman. Judy is voiced by Jennifer Goodwin of Big Love fame.

• 8:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  I haven't seen her in a minute. What's she up to? I mean, I guess.

• 8:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Zootopia 2.

• 8:32Sean Fennessey?

  The star of the biggest film in America.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  If you asked Knox what happens in Marlon Brando's One-Eyed Jacks, you would also say the same plot description like, could you?

• 8:41Sean Fennessey?

  It is. It's a fungible world.

• 8:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 8:43Sean Fennessey?

  One of the things about the movie, and this really comes to the fore in the second film, which we're not going to review here because you guys haven't seen it and you'll never see it.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  No, I mean.

• 8:49Amanda Dobbins?

  You can come with us.

• 8:50Sean Fennessey?

  You might enjoy it with Knox.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 8:53Sean Fennessey?

  The movie does something, or the original does something that has, as far as I could remember, had never really been done before in a proper animated big kids movie with wide release, which is that it just puts animals in our society and has them run things, you know, live in the world as humans would. There are no humans in the Zootopia movies. So it's just like, they all have jobs, they're all part of communities.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  You've never seen that before?

• 9:18Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I was trying to think of another example because in children's book, there are hundreds of children's books that do just this.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Wait, is, so Zootopia is the one with the sloth working at the DMV?

• 9:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Oh, I've seen that.

• 9:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's good.

• 9:27Amanda Dobbins?

  It's a classic. It's really funny stuff.

• 9:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, the first one's really funny.

• 9:29Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, I suggested to Sean, like, The Secret Life of Pets, but they're pets and they're living in a world where they're also humans. So then they like open the refrigerator when the humans are gone.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  What about, uh, all, uh, Secrets of the Nim?

• 9:41Sean Fennessey?

  Secret, The Secret of Nim?

• 9:43Speaker 02

  The Nim, like the, the mice, right?

• 9:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, but they're not like living in society as humans.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  But don't they have their own society? Are there humans in that movie?

• 9:50Sean Fennessey?

  There's not like ice cream shops in The Secret of Nim.

• 9:52Amanda Dobbins?

  What's going on in Madagascar?

• 9:54Sean Fennessey?

  So Madagascar and, uh, and the Ice Age films, I think are a good comp.

• 9:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 9:59Sean Fennessey?

  But those aren't like societies. They're not like human, they don't wear clothes and go to work. You know, like, that's the thing that I'm saying, like, they're anthropomorphizing all the way.

• 10:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Someone needs to re-watch Avatar. Okay, and get some lessons about how other people live.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  He has no more tears. He needs to replenish.

• 10:15Sean Fennessey?

  I just, I, I love stories. I don't know what to say. I think these movies are good. The, they're the fast-paced jokes. There's a lot of stuff for adults, which is one of the reasons why I think this movie is doing well. You've also got the same thing that we had with the Minions movies where kids who were five when the first movie came out are 14 now. And they're going, because they're like, I love Zootopia. It's a part of my childhood. So they're showing up. And then there's a lot of, kind of like my, my guy Rango, there's a lot of references to movies and movie history. There are two overt references to The Shining and Silence of the Lambs in Zootopia 2.

• 10:46Amanda Dobbins?

  What are some of the movie references in Rango?

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Sergio Leone, right?

• 10:51Sean Fennessey?

  Spaghetti Westerns?

• 10:52Amanda Dobbins?

  All right, relax, Frog Sheriff.

• 10:53Sean Fennessey?

  Total recreation of Chinatown. It's a retelling of Chinatown with a Frog Sheriff.

• 10:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 10:58Sean Fennessey?

  Among other, there's lots of movie references in that. These ones are a little more.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  And if you've seen Caught By The Tides this year, you know that they, Rango pays it forward by influencing another generation.

• 11:08Sean Fennessey?

  Caught By The Tides actually is Utopia prequel. I don't know if people would know that. They should check that out. Maybe we'll talk more about it. Also, do you know about, so Judy and Nick, the fox and the bunny? There's been a lot of shipping of their relationship over the last 10 years. People want them to get together.

• 11:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 11:21Sean Fennessey?

  And the film seems to know that. And so it's exploring that idea.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 11:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 11:25Sean Fennessey?

  So you will, you will see it.

• 11:27Amanda Dobbins?

  A lot of assumptions about Judy and Nick and.

• 11:32Sean Fennessey?

  Well, we don't know. Are they, is it a heteronormative circumstance? And can there be interspecies relations? We don't really know.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Carmy and Sid on the bear. It's just like, maybe, but that doesn't really like then work for the story.

• 11:41Sean Fennessey?

  That's right. Well, good luck, Chris. Solo viewing, 10 p.m. IMAX.

• 11:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Just imagining 11, an 11 year old like logging on to Reddit being like, Judy and Nick.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  That's not what they're.

• 11:55Sean Fennessey?

  I need this to bang.

• 11:56Amanda Dobbins?

  It's a respectful relationship. They know how to communicate.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  That's not what they're redditing about.

• 12:03Sean Fennessey?

  All right. Here's a big one.

• 12:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 12:05Sean Fennessey?

  Originally, I was like, I don't know if Chris needs to join us for the news, but I did need you here for this. Leonardo DiCaprio pretty much confirmed a deadline this week that he is going to be starring in Heat Two. Now, he did not clarify what character he would be playing or what role or even at what stage the film was at other than it was still a long ways away. But he effectively confirmed that he's doing it with Michael Mann. Really interesting, long conversation with Mike Fleming. He talked a lot about his relationship with Michael Mann over the years. They were going to make a James Dean movie together. And then they developed John Logan's The Aviator script for a long time. And he almost, they almost made it together. Michael Mann walked away. Leo brought it to Martin Scorsese in the aftermath of Gangs of New York.

• 12:47Sean Fennessey?

  So this movie is not only happening, but it is happening with Leo.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I've been trying to keep my reactions like low key about this stuff.

• 12:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I have like a, I just have a protective instinct. I'm close to you and I just wanna hold you.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  It's kinda like finding out God's real. You know what I mean? Like I, I, I did, I did this on the watch before I read the interview. And then I went and read like every other recorded interview of Leonardo DiCaprio that I could find over the last few years. And he is very careful about when he is like, I am going to be in this movie.

• 13:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  You know, sometimes he gets attached to things.

• 13:22Sean Fennessey?

  Well, he very rarely talks.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  It's crazy. He's gonna be in Heat 2. Like this movie is going to get made.

• 13:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Michael Mann.

• 13:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I, yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Who's old and deaf and has like made Ferrari, who I worship like, like a pagan god, is gonna make a sequel to my favorite movie ever made with Leonardo DiCaprio. And because of that, probably like the cast of the year, you know, and the names being thrown around.

• 13:52Sean Fennessey?

  Everyone will come out.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  I am still fairly certain in my, in my heart of hearts, I think he's playing Neil. I think he's playing the De Niro part. It makes sense in terms of his long-term relationship to De Niro.

• 14:04Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  In terms of this, like even the way he carries himself, the way he looks, the way he dresses when he's like doing press and stuff like that. He feels like, it doesn't feel like he's Cherliss.

• 14:16Sean Fennessey?

  He's even really recently had that Chris Neil De Niro goatee going on. So I, you know, I know you like Heat.

• 14:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:23Sean Fennessey?

  You love Leo.

• 14:24Amanda Dobbins?

  I love Leo.

• 14:25Sean Fennessey?

  What do you make of this?

• 14:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I, again, I'm here solely for Chris. I want what Chris wants. I feel protective.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  The Kilmer casting is the most important thing of all of this, though. I'll just keep.

• 14:37Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know what you do. If he's playing the De Niro part, I, I, I can't think of a person not only that can match Leo, because the whole story of Heat, obviously, is this union of Pacino and De Niro. That's, the movie exists because of that. So who's Leo's counterpoint?

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Well, here's the thing too, is that is Michael Mann going to be very like

• 14:58Speaker 02

  detailed about like wanting these guys to look like younger versions of characters in Heat? Or is he gonna be like, we're breaking the seal? And if Bradley Cooper is gonna play the Val Kilmer part, or if, or whatever.

• 15:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes. Yes.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Like picking an older man, I think, because I think Bradley Cooper would be older now than Val Kilmer was in Heat. You know, for instance.

• 15:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Austin Butler would probably be a little bit younger than Val Kilmer was in Heat. So like, you can just like, let it go and just be like, we're vibing. You know, I picked the best cast, the best actors I could find to capture the essence of the characters, rather than be one to one, like, exactly, that's exactly how old and how he would look.

• 15:37Sean Fennessey?

  We never got any clarity on what that, that image of Austin Butler at the shooting range. What was he training for there?

• 15:46Speaker 02

  A lot of people are suggesting that was for Crockett, Sonny Crockett.

• 15:50Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, interesting. Okay. Well, um, I wish you well. I mean, I'm excited about the film. The other-

• 15:56Speaker 02

  I'll see you when it comes out. You know, what if I just-

• 15:59Sean Fennessey?

  Are you going into hiding until then?

• 16:03Sean Fennessey?

  You're just gonna be a vampire, getting your casket for three years.

• 16:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Every day, it's, you know, day 2000 of me waiting for- Yeah, that's really good.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  It's like me, but my Wilson ball is Wayne Grove.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  And I just go to an island until this comes out.

• 16:19Sean Fennessey?

  Leo also talked about What Happens at Night, which it sounds like is the next movie he's going to make, which is his next collaboration with Martin Scorsese, starring Jennifer Lawrence. It's an adaptation of a 2021 Peter Cameron novel that I guess Patrick Marber is adapting. It sounds like Apple is gonna get behind it, which I find interesting. Get post Killers of the Flower Moon, not in a negative or positive way. So Leo, when he was on the show, talked about how he had been watching Vertigo, because that's what Scorsese had encouraged him to watch for their next thing. This had not been announced when he talked about that. And then Leo also invoked The Shining and Shutter Island in the Deadline interview. So that gives you some sense of what kind of a movie this is gonna be.

• 16:58Sean Fennessey?

  You excited?

• 16:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I'm pro. Pro all these people. Pro all their most recent work. Yeah.

• 17:04Sean Fennessey?

  I'm, I'm, I'm comfortable with it being in second, second place behind this movie.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Second position.

• 17:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 17:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Who was in the Hawaii movie?

• 17:10Sean Fennessey?

  The Rock and Emily Blunt.

• 17:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I think we can all take a break. Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Right?

• 17:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Leo, The Rock and Emily Blunt was the idea.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  They did like a full like.

• 17:18Sean Fennessey?

  This is happening.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  The great wizard Martin Scorsese has blessed us and we're, we're gonna make Casino in the Islands. And it was like, oh, it's like, damn, they're gonna make that. But now it seems like it's gone down the pecking order a little bit.

• 17:30Sean Fennessey?

  Well, we'll have to wait and see. Let's talk about award season quickly.

• 17:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 17:33Sean Fennessey?

  A lot has transpired in award season in the last 10 days. So we've gotten the New York Film Critics Circle, the National Board of Review, and the Gotham Awards have all given out their prizes. A couple of interesting prizes to talk through. First and foremost, One Battle After Another is steamrolling this season. It has won Best Picture at every single race that we've had.

• 17:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, both critics, bodies, and actual awards.

• 17:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, peers. Yes.

• 18:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 18:00Sean Fennessey?

  So that's to be expected.

• 18:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:04Sean Fennessey?

  You were kind of razzing me a little bit about that.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Not razzing, I was asking. I was like sincerely asking, how does it feel to be cheering for the 1927 Yankees?

• 18:14Sean Fennessey?

  Good. Feels good.

• 18:15Amanda Dobbins?

  It feels good and you don't, you don't have any nerves? I don't trust it yet. That's where, that's where I am.

• 18:20Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's a healthy attitude.

• 18:21Amanda Dobbins?

  I think that it's early December, the Oscars are in mid-March. And a lot can happen and I, I don't trust the Academy. I think it's also worth noting that One Battle has won the top prize at every single one of these things, but it was just an accident. The Jafar Bahi movie has also cleaned up as well.

• 18:40Sean Fennessey?

  It has.

• 18:40Amanda Dobbins?

  An international feature, sometimes in director, in screenplay. Like, it is very present.

• 18:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 18:46Amanda Dobbins?

  So. I would be surprised if it is the film that edges out one battle after another at the Oscars, but I think it's very much in the conversation.

• 18:55Sean Fennessey?

  It's very competitive right now.

• 18:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:56Sean Fennessey?

  Panahi won Best Director at the New York Film Critics Circle. New York Film Critics Circle, not historically predictive of the Academy Awards, but very persuasive in terms of getting people nominations and getting people to pay more attention to things. In particular, they also spotlight Rose Byrne's performance in "If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You",

• 19:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 19:12Sean Fennessey?

  which I think is also very relevant to the race soon. Panahi, we'll talk about it was just an accident next Monday on the show. I interviewed Panahi.

• 19:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Sean Fennessey?

  It was amazing to speak to him. I spoke to him before the news came out that he has been once again sentenced to a one-year prison sentence when he returns to Iran. So that news, I think, also bubbling to the surface makes the film feel more urgent. It's a very, very good movie. And it's also a much more conventional movie than you would be led to believe by his previous three or four films. And because of that, I think also a lot of voters will be, will enjoy watching it, for lack of a better phrase.

• 19:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 19:48Sean Fennessey?

  You know, it is a very watchable film. And so sometimes you hear a story about like, you know, an artist who's been under the watchful eye of a fascist regime, and you expect something that doesn't have the sort of like thriller conventionality that the movie has.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Just out of curiosity, the new kind of you have to watch the movies to vote guidelines, which are apparent, like, they're not contractual, they're just like, you're highly...

• 20:13Sean Fennessey?

  I think they're being virtually like clocked.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 20:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I imagined it like when we have to do all of the like, security and harassment training, you know, and you have to like click through the thing.

• 20:25Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's a good comp.

• 20:26Amanda Dobbins?

  But the, which, I mean, is the most annoying thing on earth. But, and also is why I imagine people like paying other people to sit and screen, you know, whatever movies they don't want to watch.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Right. You can pay me to do that for you.

• 20:37Amanda Dobbins?

  I also, I would do that. I mean, I'm not voting yet. They have not yet accepted me to the Academy. But if anyone else...

• 20:43Sean Fennessey?

  Not yet.

• 20:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but if anyone else, I'm, you know, historically have been so supportive.

• 20:47Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 20:47Amanda Dobbins?

  And admiring them. I do like that museum.

• 20:49Sean Fennessey?

  And you've donated millions.

• 20:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  And when you're rubbing elbows with CEOs from big studios.

• 20:54Amanda Dobbins?

  That's right, yeah. So you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be part of the lawyers branch when I get nominated to the academy, so.

• 21:00Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, the executives have a branch.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Anyway, I was just wondering whether or not, like, you know, some of the smaller films that are getting acknowledged in the critic circle awards in the Gothams or whatever, once they start getting up to guilds and once they start getting up to like more larger precursors, do you think maybe some more popular films will like, like get a boost because they have been seen necessarily?

• 21:23Sean Fennessey?

  I think the opposite is what's happening right now. I think the reviews for Avatar Fire and Ash, the sort of soft social reviews were positive, but a little mixed and Wicked for Good reviews were very bad.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:34Sean Fennessey?

  And so.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  But I was surprised by the absence of Sinners.

• 21:38Sean Fennessey?

  At this particular award show.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  It just, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. So, you know, one of you Musako, I believe, won at the Gothams, which happened before New York Film Critics Circle.

• 21:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Supporting performance.

• 21:47Sean Fennessey?

  Um, Sinners did make it to the National Board of Review top 10.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 21:51Sean Fennessey?

  But Sinners has not been acknowledged and, and Coogler won Best Original Screenplay from National Board of Review.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 21:58Sean Fennessey?

  But we haven't seen a Michael B. Jordan win yet. We haven't seen a Delroy Lindo win yet. We haven't seen a Best Director win yet for him. So, you know, in theory, I still think that's a top three movie in the race.

• 22:12Amanda Dobbins?

  For sure.

• 22:13Sean Fennessey?

  But things are changing, you know, Smarty Supreme screenplay won for New York Film Critics Circle. Wagner Moro won for The Secret Agent, another one of those movies that like, I think has a very strong chance to get into the, to the 10 right now. So everything's just very unsettled. The one thing that has emerged to be true, and Amanda cited this in the immediate aftermath of one battle.

• 22:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I started it. I should have worn a jacket.

• 22:36Sean Fennessey?

  Straight up the frontrunner for Supporting Actor and is winning in a lot of places. People just love him and they love that character.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  At the expense of Sean Penn, right?

• 22:43Sean Fennessey?

  Sean Penn and Stellan Skarsgård, which I thought was like, three months ago, I thought that was a lock. And now I don't feel so confident about it. So anyway, a lot is going on. Um, one other thing I wanted to cite about the National Board of Review, the film F1.

• 22:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 22:54Sean Fennessey?

  Made the list. Now, as those blockbusters are falling away, I pitched a month ago, could F1 get into Best Picture?

• 23:03Sean Fennessey?

  I still think it's in play.

• 23:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Can we just read the entire National Board of Review?

• 23:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 23:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Top 10.

• 23:10Sean Fennessey?

  Let me start by saying that they choose their 10 best films of the year.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  And the National Board of Review is who?

• 23:15Sean Fennessey?

  A curious collection of people who are film admirers.

• 23:18Amanda Dobbins?

  And you say what?

• 23:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  Are you part of it?

• 23:20Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not.

• 23:20Amanda Dobbins?

  And historically, they can be slightly more, well, they're both mainstream and slightly more conservative.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:30Sean Fennessey?

  And also historically more American. They do not specifically by their rules exclude international films, but they do not usually include them. Like a couple of years ago, they did include The Boy and the Heron, which was strange for them to include a movie like that in their top 10. But for the most part, you find a lot of American productions. So their list this year is Avatar, Fire and Ash, F1, Frankenstein, J. Kelly, Marty Supreme, Rental Family, Sinners, Train Dreams, Wake Up Dead, Man of Knives Out, Mystery, and Wicked for Good. So first of all, that's one, two, three, four Netflix movies.

• 24:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 24:02Sean Fennessey?

  Two huge blockbusters in Wicked for Good and Fire and Ash, plus F1 is a blockbuster. Then Marty Supreme, Rental Family, Sinners, and then One Battle Wins Best Film. So it's not on that 10.

• 24:14Amanda Dobbins?

  So they actually got to pick 11.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Okay, and Weapons is not on there.

• 24:17Sean Fennessey?

  Weapons is not there.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:19Sean Fennessey?

  Does that hurt your feelings?

• 24:22Speaker 02

  I love the pageantry of awards, but I don't know that it's good. Weapons will live on regardless of its haul.

• 24:30Sean Fennessey?

  Wow, this is just full-throated support for Zach Cregger. Did you hear he's being scouted deeply by the team at Paramount?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  To do what?

• 24:40Sean Fennessey?

  To become a part of whatever it is that they're doing there. I read that Josh Goldstein, who's running the film division, flew to Bulgaria where he's making Resident Evil to convince him to come be a part of the gang.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Okay, good.

• 24:51Amanda Dobbins?

  To run Warner Brothers.

• 24:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 24:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Once that's been purchased.

• 24:55Sean Fennessey?

  Somebody's gonna have to do it.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  I just want him to make movies.

• 24:57Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, me too. Any other thoughts about what's transpired with award season the last couple of weeks?

• 25:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Hamnet was not mentioned once in that conversation and anything that you and I just said. It is in limited release right now. We're going to talk about it next week, at the end of next week.

• 25:13Sean Fennessey?

  End of next week. Yes, we're going to, the schedule that was announced, we're going to switch it up a little bit so that Joanna Robinson can join us in person to talk about Hamnet.

• 25:21Amanda Dobbins?

  But that is something that we've had at number two on our best picture ranking list for some time.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Yes, starting second guest up.

• 25:27Amanda Dobbins?

  No, because I drove by, I mean, I drove by a billboard today for Hamnet that listed every single audience award that it has gotten, which is literally every single, like every film festival, you know, in a lovely area where people go to see films. They love it. And

• 25:46Sean Fennessey?

  And it's a counterpoint to the other front runners.

• 25:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. And it's, it's a long four months. And again, it also hasn't really rolled out totally.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:54Sean Fennessey?

  Hamnet Zootopia 2 double feature for you?

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that sounds fun.

• 25:58Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Well, let's take a quick break and then bring in our friend Adam Nayman.

• 26:07Sean Fennessey?

  Well, as Frank Sinatra once sang, "It's the time of year when the world falls in love." Adam Nayman is here to talk about the best movies of 2025. Adam, hello.

• 26:18Speaker 03

  Hey, how you doing?

• 26:19Sean Fennessey?

  Could you look at me when we speak, please? I desperately need you to look.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  I was looking down, I was looking down at my list. I heard something about, something about falling in love and then I looked up and here I am. It's very, you know, stereotypically, it's very cold in Toronto right now. If I were to pan my camera over, you would actually see snow.

• 26:36Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, no. Well, don't do that.

• 26:37Speaker 03

  So, so, you know, this is why I, this, this is why I look a little sad. I got a, I got a shovel.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Adam, are you shooting on Vista Vision on your end?

• 26:45Speaker 03

  No, not, not, not, not shooting on Vista Vision. This is called the first webcam I've ever had.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Looks good.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  And it's, and it looks okay, you know?

• 26:53Sean Fennessey?

  Any questions for Adam before we start?

• 26:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Adam and I were talking about child holiday party etiquette before this, so we've wrapped that all up.

• 27:00Sean Fennessey?

  You're caught up. Okay.

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I was gonna fake my death to avoid the child holiday party etiquette tonight. But you can only do it once.

• 27:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  And once you faked your death once, you have to go to the next one. So I think I'll wait.

• 27:13Sean Fennessey?

  I wish you well on that.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  But can't you just come back and be like, I'm Nadam Bayman, you know?

• 27:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, with a mustache.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  And that would also be your opportunity to completely pivot towards like AI slop if you wanted to and be like, this new Sora video rocks.

• 27:28Speaker 03

  Do you know how close I am to needing a pivot, Chris? You have no idea. It's coming. Sometime in the next two years, there's a pivot coming.

• 27:36Sean Fennessey?

  Why not start today when we do our lists, don't you think?

• 27:39Speaker 03

  Oh, that would be a good bit if I just did a complete pivot away from my actual choices.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Captain America Brave New World is a number one.

• 27:47Speaker 03

  What if I just like completely endeared myself to like two members of the listenership? You know, people who are just gonna be really mad that something's not there. I'm gonna do it for them. I'm pivoting.

• 27:57Sean Fennessey?

  What is the cost of your integrity? That's something we'll get to later today.

• 28:01Amanda Dobbins?

  On this spot or in general?

• 28:03Sean Fennessey?

  I've been selling it for years, so you know, it has a price, I can assure you. Movies this year.

• 28:09Speaker 03

  Movies.

• 28:09Sean Fennessey?

  We usually talk when we do these top five lists at the top about whether or not this was a good movie year or not. And usually it's a lot of wheel spinning and excuse making. But this is a question that is being actually posed to a lot of people in the world. Paul Thomas Anderson was confronted about this in an interview this week and he answered, he was like, you know, rumors of movies demise is greatly exaggerated. And then he listed 10 movies and he was like, these movies are great. So I mean, I'll start with you.

• 28:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 28:35Sean Fennessey?

  Was this a good movie year?

• 28:38Amanda Dobbins?

  It's an existential question, right? In the sense of,

• 28:42Amanda Dobbins?

  do you want one five-star all-time classic masterpiece? And then a lot of other really interesting, cool movies that I liked a lot?

• 28:50Sean Fennessey?

  You can get Minecraft and then a bunch of other stuff.

• 28:53Amanda Dobbins?

  But you've got the one undeniable rocket ship. And then another, like some interesting stuff. And like, your mileage may vary on which movies are the interesting. Movies versus a year where you had three or four, four and a half star cinema feels alive masterpieces. And to some extent, that's like, how are you parceling out the excitement? It's because we had that one shining month of one battle after another and everyone's seeing it. And that really was an event and movies felt really alive. And then, like, we're going to talk a lot about a lot of great films on this podcast, but there hasn't really been anything collective since then.

• 29:34Amanda Dobbins?

  So to me, that is fun. That one month was amazing. That was, we had such a great time and maybe we're going to get to do a few more months of it. But on the other hand, we've, we've had a lot of Mondays where we're like, huh, interesting.

• 29:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 29:49Amanda Dobbins?

  You know?

• 29:49Sean Fennessey?

  The smashing machine.

• 29:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 29:51Sean Fennessey?

  Did anyone see that? Yeah.

• 29:52Amanda Dobbins?

  So I think it's like, it's always a good year when you get to go and see interesting work from filmmakers you like. And there were a lot of filmmakers who I, who I love, who released films this year. Was it like good for the, like for movie culture? For, for movies outside of this bubble? I don't know. I, I, I don't, maybe not the best that we've had.

• 30:16Sean Fennessey?

  Adam, what do you think?

• 30:17Speaker 03

  I mean, any year you can have two Oscar Perkins movies, you know?

• 30:22Speaker 03

  You know, just, just on that alone. What am I here for?

• 30:26Sean Fennessey?

  Did you see Keeper?

• 30:28Speaker 03

  I did. And I actually liked it more than The Monkey. It had some okay, kind of cozy.

• 30:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Cozy. There's so many. Yeah. So many like cozy couples therapy horror movies this year. Like I count at least, at least four. And then if you count compound movies, there's like another four.

• 30:45Sean Fennessey?

  And then every episode of this show, you know, so many.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  I think it was a good year for the festival hangover movies from 2024 that I personally liked and that people are probably sick of hearing me say that I like, because they got theatrically released this year. And then in terms of new releases, I do think that whatever I think of them or whether they end up on a 10 best list, stuff like Eddington and Sinners and One Battle After Another, and even now Marty Supreme, they have a kind of galvanizing. Quality to them. Sometimes I wish other kinds of movies got to have that galvanizing quality, or people chose to be galvanized by them rather than these kind of grand statement American culture movies. But it was a kind of heavy artillery trio or quartet of those, like some good talking point movies. And then the rest is just for, as with everybody,

• 31:30Speaker 03

  it's not just subjective, but it's very self-directed. I saw less new releases this year than you, than fewer new releases this year than I normally would because I just didn't have to. I saw some for one of my jobs and some for another of my jobs and fun for friends. Like I only went to see Keeper with my friend because she wanted to and it was fun, but didn't have to. I think if this had been a year where I had had to sit through some of the stuff I've had reported back to me, I would think it was very bad. But because I saw less in a kind of self-directed way, I'm okay with it. And I like my top 10 list. It could have been a top 20 list, and I didn't feel that way about last year. That's interesting. What do you think?

• 32:06Speaker 02

  I very much agree with Adam in that I'm very happy with my top 10 list, but don't know if I love going to the movies this year as much as I have in years past. I feel like I have experienced and obviously talking from a very privileged bubble of not only living in Los Angeles, but getting to do this show with you guys occasionally and, you know, experience film in a very specific kind of way, but a little bit of a bifurcation in terms of like, there's like this experience of cinema, especially at the end of the year with like the awards favorites coming out and feeling like a kind of personal responsibility that I want to see a lot of this stuff before we get into next year debating about what was the best and what deserved what award. But for the most part, over the course of

• 32:50Speaker 02

  the year, like I went to the movies that I felt like I had a professional obligation to and had a little bit of a hard time getting it up for maybe some of the other blockbuster stuff. Like I really, really, really struggled with Marvel. I really, really struggled with some of the franchise stuff. I maybe aged out of a couple of things. That being said, I really see a lot of like glimmers of hope right now. Like even if the industry is in freefall in terms of its financials or in terms of the consolidation, like we talked about earlier with Warner Brothers, I do feel like I started noticing I started experiencing movies in a way that I hadn't since 2019 and seeing films

• 33:32Speaker 02

  that seemed to reflect life in a way and not be like mitigated by COVID restrictions or strikes or anything like that, where it kind of brought me back to the place where I'm like, I'm seeing some sort of window through which to look at the world.

• 33:46Sean Fennessey?

  I think, yeah, I agree with everything that all three of you have said. It does feel like we are in a very transitional state for both the business and if not the art form, what is getting made. And so those franchises that you talked about, most of the major ones, Marvel, Jurassic, Mission Impossible, you know, they all had movies this year. They all were down relative to how they performed at the box office in the past. It feels like those, those tricks, those tools don't work. Some new stuff has come, come along, your Minecrafts and your Barbies and your Super Mario's and those are going to eventually fill those gaps. But in the interim, that means the franchise stuff didn't feel very fun, with a couple of exceptions. And so you're really reliant

• 34:27Sean Fennessey?

  on things that are not that when you're doing a day to day, week to week movie conversation show. We did get somewhere from five to 25 auteur, studio backed, big movies. And some of them hit and some of them didn't, but they felt like there was more pressure on them than ever because of the slippage of everything else. And so it just felt like a very high ceiling, low floor kind of year for me. When things were bad and we were sitting here on April 18th, looking at each other like, good lord, like, what the hell is going on right now?

• 35:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Until you bought that Minecraft ticket, you know?

• 35:02Sean Fennessey?

  I know. It's, it just changed everything for me. It was wonderful. I think in general, when you, I also similarly had a really hard time with the top five and I had a really hard time with the top 20. And that's a, that's a, that's good news. That's good news when you love a lot.

• 35:15Amanda Dobbins?

  You had a hard time picking between?

• 35:17Sean Fennessey?

  Cutting it down. Yeah. And even just from my personal list making, there's just a ton of stuff that is above average. There's not a ton of stuff that is unforgettable. And we'll explore what those movies are.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  I think what, you know, what maybe is, got, got to me this year was the feeling that the bottom was kind of falling out on B-movies a little bit and that they were often. Borderline unwatchable, either because of the way they were shot, or the way, you know, how I was watching them on a streamer or something like that. And that that lack of volume that you would get at the movie theaters back in 2017, 2018, 2019, where you could go to a movie 50 times, you could go to the theater 50 times a year and reliably be able to see something. Kind of feeling like, oh, man, like, this is, this shouldn't have been released and I'm watching it. You know, that was a feeling that that kind of haunted me this year a little bit.

• 36:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I had a really hard time with all of the tent pole stuff this year. And typically, in this top five list, I like, you know, to be representative. And this is a podcast that likes Hollywood and likes like, you know, a big dumb spectacle when done artfully. And I just, nothing really came close. And, and I really like felt that whole, and that expanded to entire seasons, right? Like, the January through March that you were identifying the whole summer, more or less? It was really, it was very, very stop and start this year. In a way that I ended up doing a theme list instead of like a, I mean,

• 36:53Amanda Dobbins?

  and they are my top five favorite films of the year. And they identify something that like I saw going to the movie theater. But it's not, you know, Jurassic World Rebirth is not on it, you know? I don't have, I don't, I don't have a summer dumb time at the movies.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  You know what I was starting to think of? I don't want this to happen to movie going culture, but it's starting to feel a little bit like going to concerts. And six concerts a year, you're like, that was awesome. And, and it's becoming more and more like, all right, I'm going to plan to go see this in the best possible theater I can, in the best seat I can at the time I want to go see it. And for me, movies have always been like a rhythmic part of my life, where it's like, I can rely on going to the theater once a week and just checking something out. And that, to feel that going away, which might entirely be like personal behavioral stuff.

• 37:44Sean Fennessey?

  I don't think it is. I think, I think that's something that is sweeping over a lot of people who are not committed to seeing as many movies. And even some, you know, Adam saying, I saw less than I usually do, in part because I didn't have the professional obligation. But also, if you just, if you felt compelled to go check out. Whatever the version of Jurassic World Rebirth it is better, you know, you would just go because you like movies.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  But yeah, but that's the thing. I've always been of the mind of trying to see everything. And it's not for lack of something better to do, you know, life, kids, Raptor basketball, but I like going to movies. And I felt less compelled than usual, and I don't want to think that's just a byproduct of being busy with other things. There are just a lot of things that felt like there's no point in actually sitting through this until I hear otherwise, because I'm also very easily persuaded to check things out by people I find interesting on Letterboxd or by friends I trust. Like, my curiosity is piqued very easily by other people, but it's certainly not piqued by just trailers or obligations. So, yeah, less new movies than I usually see in a year. And that even was like, when we talked about TIFF back in September, I saw fewer movies at TIFF than I usually do,

• 38:51Speaker 03

  too. That might just be a stamina thing. We're just busy with other obligations. Like, even a usual year at TIFF, I used to see thirty, thirty-five movies. It was like barely twenty, twenty-five this year. So I may just be slipping, you know, just personally.

• 39:04Sean Fennessey?

  I've seen two hundred and forty-eight new releases this year.

• 39:06Speaker 03

  Jesus Christ.

• 39:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Right on.

• 39:08Sean Fennessey?

  I've got at least forty more that I feel like I want to see before the year is over.

• 39:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, but that's light work for you.

• 39:13Sean Fennessey?

  Well, it's one month.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  You probably shouldn't be on this podcast if that's how you feel, you know?

• 39:16Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, I don't think I'm gonna get through all of them. I mean, I'm, I am try, I am literally trying to do what Adam is saying. I'm trying to see everything.

• 39:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Sean Fennessey?

  And I'm trying to see everything because I want to discover something. And so making this list feels a little silly because there are not a lot of discoveries on my list this year. And that's, to me, that's really the high ceiling, low floor thing. And my fear about having a chalk list in the past this year, I kind of dispensed with that because I was like, I know what I love. I know what I want from movies. And there were a handful that really were giving me what I love in a very specific way. But I actually didn't feel the inverse of that. I didn't feel caught by surprise too often, even by smaller stuff. That might just be me. That might be the way that I'm going through, watching movies at this stage of my life. But I, I want to be open to, I haven't heard of this filmmaker, or I didn't see this movie coming, or what a surprise from a reliable studio hand that they really stepped up and elevated. I had a harder time with those, too.

• 40:05Sean Fennessey?

  So it's a, it's a, it's a, it's an unusual year where some of the things that are clear are very clear. They're written in neon red.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:14Sean Fennessey?

  And then everything in the middle feels a little bit hazy. So I'm very curious to have a discussion with you guys about what your favorites are. Did we, did we learn anything?

• 40:24Amanda Dobbins?

  About film or ourselves?

• 40:26Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, both. What'd you learn about yourself by going to the movies this year?

• 40:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I learned a lot about moms and dads and how they're different and how they're the same. I learned a lot about dads and a lot about what the people on a parallel but very different track for me in life right now are feeling at all times.

• 40:44Sean Fennessey?

  Two big daddies right here and then father of many styles.

• 40:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Beautiful, and I was moved by it. And I am a little amused, but also I see you guys and I think that's beautiful. So I don't, I, maybe that taught me something about myself. Maybe that taught me something about my husband and, you know, everyone I, and I work with.

• 41:04Sean Fennessey?

  What, what, what did you learn? Tell us what you learned about, about men with children.

• 41:12Sean Fennessey?

  Jake Sully has a child. Yeah. Did you see Avatar yet?

• 41:17Speaker 03

  I did.

• 41:18Sean Fennessey?

  Fire and Ash?

• 41:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's not, it's not Fire and Ash.

• 41:21Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, you hate, you hate the original Avatar, right?

• 41:24Speaker 03

  No, not at all.

• 41:25Sean Fennessey?

  You like it?

• 41:26Speaker 03

  I'm not, I'm fond of James Cameron very much overall. He's got the best, I've written this about him, like the best metronome internally of any action director maybe ever. He's usually really, really good with his pacing, where it's just like, how much downtime can I give people till they're bored? How can I push an action scene until people are exhausted? Like, he's really great at that. You see his, his DNA all in one of the better movies this year, which is one battle after another, which has at least as much of James Cameron as, you know, Thomas Pynchon in it. The new one, which, I don't, are we allowed to talk about it? Is the embargo broken? This isn't an Avatar themed episode, right?

• 42:02Sean Fennessey?

  Actually, no. And then we're going to delete the whole episode. So we've, we've aired here. No, I mean, I just, if you have any impressions, briefly, you feel free to share them, but we're not supposed to review it.

• 42:11Speaker 03

  No, I won't review. I will say that, you know, I saw it and I think it has an interesting relationship to the one before it, maybe to a fault.

• 42:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  But, uh, you know, I mean, James, James, James Cameron belongs at least as much in the company of those kind of uncompromising, final cut weirdo directors as he does, like the consideration of franchise cinema. I mean, I don't, I, I, his great movies are extremely important to me. And I find the whole back to the Avatar universe thing kind of funny. I made an offhand remark. On X the other day that there's more talking whales in this one than ever before. And I just got messages from strangers being like, okay, how many whales and how much talking?

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Can you, can you, can you, can you give me a number? So obviously there's people who have this really endearing relationship to this piece of pop culture. I also think that the, however, many hundred times people say there's no impact on the culture from this movie means it obviously made an impact on the culture, which is people thinking it doesn't have enough of an impact on the culture. There were a lot of things I liked less than Fire and Ash this year, let's put it that way.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Did you think it was weird at the end of Fire and Ash when it zooms out? And it turns out the entire Avatar franchise has been scored by Lydia Tarr. And she, that's what she's been working on since the end of Tarr.

• 43:19Speaker 03

  It was, it was a real curve ball. You know, the, the, the ending of Tarr is essentially her like going to a sci fi nerd convention anyway. So, you know, there could be crossover. I was actually thinking of a materialists crossover where instead of getting leg lengthening surgery, he just gets a Navi body.

• 43:37Sean Fennessey?

  I like it. Materialists, too. Welcome to Pandora.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  Welcome, welcome.

• 43:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Adam, I'd like to let you know that Sean started crying on a podcast earlier this week while rewatching Avatar, The Way of Water. You teared up.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  You didn't, when I asked you if you were crying, you didn't say I'm not crying.

• 43:52Sean Fennessey?

  I got a little lump in my throat.

• 43:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, you were a little weepy. Your eyes reddened slightly.

• 43:56Sean Fennessey?

  It was because of this, this parentage that we're talking about, this parenthood that we're talking about, you know, this idea of the challenges of, of being a parent in the 21st century in 2025, which is.

• 44:08Speaker 03

  So you weren't crying, you weren't crying at the whale, though?

• 44:11Sean Fennessey?

  Well, the whale is probably the most fully realized character in the Avatar films. I don't mind saying Pyeongchang.

• 44:17Speaker 03

  I'm extremely fond of him. I think he's great.

• 44:19Sean Fennessey?

  He's wonderful. Uh, okay. Well, I guess we should just do our list. So yeah, here's what we do this every, the same every year. I'd like to do it in the same way, too. Let's just do our lists one at a time. We'll go five, everyone will share their number five. And we'll go four, everyone will share their number four. If your film has been, one of your films that is higher ranked is identified. Just, just kind of keep that to yourself as much as you can. And you can have your time to talk about it and why you chose it, I think. Okay. I think that would be, rather than try to do the, okay, that's my number two and you're number four. I think that's confusing for the listener. If we've done it in the past, I apologize. We'll do it a little bit more coherently now. Adam, I would love to start with you. What is your number five movie of 2025?

• 44:57Speaker 03

  Minecraft movie. No, uh, number, I mean, I want to do this list in the same order that the printed list is going to be in, but there's a couple of movies on this that I've also talked about with people on the pods. I'm debating cheating a bit, but either way, the, the fifth movie is The Secret Agent by Clever Mendocchio Filo. This is a Brazilian film set in the late seventies. I love the opening title says, "A Time of Great Mischief", which understates the case in terms of a military dictatorship and this kind of trickle down corruption. And Wagner Mora, who is winning best actor awards now, left and right, best actor, New York Film Critics Circle, deservedly, plays a guy who is not nearly as cloak and dagger as that title suggests. I mean, the title is kind of playful and ironic, you know,

• 45:42Speaker 03

  he's not a spy. He's a kind of administrative functionary, but he has beef with the local government. And he's kind of trying to keep his head down and forge some passports. And this involves, you know, kind of being pursued by hitmen and, and, and kind of sort of trying to, you know, hide in this, this little enclave of dissidents in, in, in Recife. But what I love about it, and I, I don't know what you guys thought about it. It's like the best movie about movie going I've seen in a long time because Brazilian film culture is one of the richest, you know, most, you know, richest, most fanatical, passionate film going cultures in the world. And that this filmmaker is just doing a love letter to that period of film going in his hometown. These movie palaces and the influx of new

• 46:26Speaker 03

  Hollywood films. It's the only movie you're ever going to see probably where people are watching the omen in a movie theater while also, you know, engaging in oral sex, which is a great moment. And the whole thing is, it's great, great moment. And then the whole thing is kind of shadowed by Jaws, which I find very moving too. The week I watched The Secret Agent, which includes a scene of a kid being like, I want to watch Jaws. My own daughter was Like Dad, I want to watch Jaws. It was just one of those strange little life imitates art or art imitates life moments. But this filmmaker is so smart about the intersection between history and pop culture. And he's so playful because this is essentially a movie about life under dictatorship and about political repression and the life and death stakes of that.

• 47:07Speaker 03

  It's also like two hours and what 40 minutes long. I don't have the running time in front of me, but it's just like floating on air watching it. You know, some people compared it to Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, which is a bit superficial, but in terms of building out a period with cars and clothes and theater marquees, I get the comparison. So I think it's a brilliant piece of filmmaking.

• 47:29Sean Fennessey?

  I'm really glad you picked it. This was, this is number six on my list and I Exciting. I agonized over whether or not I should include it in my top five and I rewatched it again last night. And I'm having the filmmaker on the show and I

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Oh, awesome.

• 47:45Sean Fennessey?

  I like it for all the reasons that you described. And he does something I don't know if I've ever specifically seen before, which is

• 47:56Sean Fennessey?

  use genre convention and history and absurdity in a blender to make something that is like mysterious and emotional. And I think the Once Upon a Time in Hollywood comparison is fair. You know, I don't know if it's quite the same because it's not as kind of like it's, it's the, it's the emotional opposite at its conclusion, you know, it's not about payback or anything like that. It's about coming to a sense of peace. But it's a really a beautiful movie and Wagner is amazing in this film. And he's, he's holding it on his shoulders the whole time. I really like this movie. So I'm really glad you picked it.

• 48:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. The performance, we should say it has a trick in it too. There's a structural trick that kind of hinges on that performance, which I, when I was watching it, I sort of thought, is this too much? You know, is this too much of a stunt? But the performance is good enough that it sort of holds it. You know, that it that it holds it together. And, you know, for people interested in this film, a couple of years ago, he made a movie, I think, I know you like, Chris, I don't know if you saw it because it's up your alley, which is Bakara, which is his sort of John Carpenter, his John Carpenter pastiche, which is sort of like.

• 48:57Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda and I talked about it.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  That's awesome. Okay, I'll check it out.

• 48:59Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, Amanda liked to do. I mean, a terrific movie. So he's he's been on a, he's been on a really good run. And this movie, for whatever reason, more than the other ones, seems to have really pushed through.

• 49:09Sean Fennessey?

  He's also, he's in his late 50s, and he's, he's a lot like a lot of the 70s and 80s filmmakers we like a lot, in that he was a programmer and film critic for years.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Oh, that's cool.

• 49:17Sean Fennessey?

  And then started making movies. And you can see his, his love and obsession with movies is in his films in a way that's very exciting, without sacrificing like, the, the enjoyment of the movie going experience.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  I haven't got a chance to see Secret Agent yet, but I did see Wagner Mora's Criterion Closet, which is a really good starter pack for some of the Brazilian cinema history.

• 49:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, he picked Black God, White Devil in there. And I think he picked Pichote, right? Like, he picked, yeah, he picked a few films that are like all time classics. Okay, Amanda, number five.

• 49:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, me next. Um, my number five is Train Dreams. I know, which.

• 49:52Sean Fennessey?

  Your whole heart is open.

• 49:53Amanda Dobbins?

  My whole heart is open, as, as I said, that it was once I actually saw it. You know, Sean saw it out of Sundance or on his couch as part of virtual Sundance and hasn't stopped talking about it. And that can often, you know, disincline me. But I thought this was a completely beautiful, wonderful. It was surprising to me in that it had so many familiar, like indie tropes, right? From the voiceover to flashbacks to a traumatic incident to like, you know, all the shots of the trees and nature. And there's a lot of stuff that done wrong feels

• 50:33Amanda Dobbins?

  like a Road to Sundance movie, or something that you have seen before Xerox 50 times and don't care about. And this just comes together, is more than the sum of its parts. I found it like, pretty revelatory. To me, the exploration of grief and guilt, which are entwined in this. And what is this character, Robert Greene, responsible for? And what could he have done differently? And what would he have? That is, it's until the very last line shown instead of told, which I really appreciated, even though there is that voiceover. Here's another thing, I have not read the Dennis Johnson novella.

• 51:16Amanda Dobbins?

  And I just have to say, how lovely to be free of all expectations of adaptation. For one, it is like, really, it's a lesson. You know, sometimes you just gotta.

• 51:26Sean Fennessey?

  You gotta stop reading.

• 51:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Go in, well, you know, I have pretty much.

• 51:29Sean Fennessey?

  Put that book down.

• 51:30Amanda Dobbins?

  But go in completely blind. And so I was able to give myself over to it in a way that I sometimes find I can't with other adaptations. And I don't know, I was just, I was very moved by it. And kept thinking about specific, like specific scenes. It's lovely. Everyone says that.

• 51:50Sean Fennessey?

  You love when like Mandy comes out, you know? Like the bizarro Amanda, who's just got a big heart. I know she's, I know it's in there. And I know, I know it's pumping full of blood.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Forest Service station looking out.

• 52:01Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  All the souls out there thinking about grief.

• 52:03Sean Fennessey?

  What could have been, who she could have been.

• 52:05Amanda Dobbins?

  That lookout is so beautiful. And like Carrie Condon shows up for 10 minutes and her American accent is, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:12Sean Fennessey?

  With that accent.

• 52:12Amanda Dobbins?

  But listen, it doesn't matter that. And even the setup of that lookout, the production design is very beautiful. I did have some questions about how they go to the bathroom in a lookout. Like, what was the?

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Oh, I think they climb down for it.

• 52:26Amanda Dobbins?

  You think so? Okay, you think there's like an outhouse?

• 52:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. Well, maybe there's like, I don't know.

• 52:31Sean Fennessey?

  Also, a very notable lookout scene in the film The Wolfman, which we haven't talked about too much this year. You see that, you see the, you see the Lee Whanell's Wolfman?

• 52:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 52:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it's number four on my list.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Was that this year?

• 52:41Sean Fennessey?

  That was this year, yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  That feels like it was like 20, I don't even know.

• 52:46Sean Fennessey?

  It didn't work out. I'm really glad you picked Train Dream. I will say, and I have read a number of pieces, including Adams. I picked the book up after I saw the movie.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 52:55Sean Fennessey?

  I like Dennis Johnson, not as much as Chris Chris is probably the biggest Dennis Johnson fan I know. And I, even in the first hundred pages of the book.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  First page.

• 53:02Sean Fennessey?

  He changes a couple of things that really dramatically changed the intention. I saw the movie first too, and I don't have a problem with it, but most people I know who read the book were like, ooh, I don't know if I would have done it this way, which I find interesting. Fortunately, I don't have to read too much.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Where I've arrived at it, I very much like Train Dreams. It was in, it's in my top 10.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  I was deeply moved by it. I, I might, I've arrived at it that that's the whole point of adaptation.

• 53:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Is that you're allowed to take what you want from a book and not necessarily make it a facsimile of the sentiment of the book, or even the action of the book. I mean, look what Paul Tom Sanderson did with Fine Land, so.

• 53:39Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Number five's here.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  I'm really glad she took Train Dreams because my number five is Ephes. Which I think is a very, very, very good double feature with Train Dreams because it's about the passage of time and it's about watching your life kind of pass before your eyes. This is Carson Lund's kind of aching monument to hanging out. And it came out, sort of, it did the festival run in 24, came out in the spring of 25. I didn't see it until recently and it rocked me. It made me feel like I was 17 again, watching a Jim Jarmusch movie for the first time. It's about two rec league baseball teams playing the final game at a New Hampshire baseball field that's going to be redeveloped and turned into a school.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  And these guys show up, they age range from like 25 to 65. Adam, I mean, about like maybe seven, like there's some older men there too. And.

• 54:36Speaker 03

  You're asking me if I recognize that people are 65 years old?

• 54:41Sean Fennessey?

  He's just saying, as a 65 year old man, did you see?

• 54:44Speaker 03

  Speaking as a 65 year old. Yeah, I think they're mostly, mostly in their 40s.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're middle aged guys who are like on the last innings anyway of being able to play baseball with their bodies, but are still out there. And what turns out over the course of the game is that they don't want the game to end. So, you know, the whole community is kind of sort of slowly trickling in. There's kids, there's a pizza truck, everybody's complaining, everybody's bitching. And I love that this movie is about trying to hang on to the parts of your life that make you feel. Alive. And so these guys are listening to old baseball games on tapes. They're, you know, breaking each other's balls. They're trying to run down fly balls and stuff. And then a movie kind of takes a little bit more of a surreal turn towards the end

• 55:34Speaker 02

  as these guys refuse to stop playing this game. And I, it just worked for me on every level. I think Lund's an incredibly talented filmmaker. I can't wait to see what else he does. And this was a real breath of fresh air at the end of the year for me.

• 55:48Sean Fennessey?

  It's kind of the train dreams of baseball movies, you know? Life is long, but then it's over, you know? And then what do you do? Great pick. My number five is Sinners, which is one of the most acclaimed, successful and well-covered on this podcast, films of the year. And because it is the film that has come out most recent, most, the earliest on my list, I think it was fading a bit from my memory and my exuberance about it. I think a lot of people have seen it and some people have been like, well, this is a masterpiece. And other people have said, this movie is overrated. And it's kind of gone through the entire washing cycle that happens to movies. And I popped it in last night and I was.

• 56:26Amanda Dobbins?

  And notice you say popped it in.

• 56:28Sean Fennessey?

  I popped it in. I popped the 4K right in. And I was choosing between it and The Secret Agent. And I think just looking at it again and going back to it and getting sucked in by the score immediately convinced me that there is something really major about the synthesis between the music and the storytelling in the movie. I don't think the movie is without flaw. I do think it has some flaws, but I think it's such an amazing act of imagination and a very similar act of genre collision that Mendoza Filo is doing as well in The Secret Agent. And it's also a big, bold vampire movie and also a historical drama and also a gangster movie. And also an interesting movie about the Irish, which I appreciate.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  Coogler set out to make a film.

• 57:16Sean Fennessey?

  He honestly did. And if you listen to him in interviews, he talks about it all the time, that he did a lot of research into Irish history. And I think it's going to get a nice amount of coverage in the next few months as an awards film. And it's obviously, its success is already confirmed. And it's for a lot of people, going to be one of their favorite movies of all time. But to me, it is that, it is the prime example. Of what Hollywood filmmaking can be specifically, which is that someone who has gone through the system and understands what audiences want and can make something at scale that is tremendously personal and gratifying and deep and worthy of reconsideration. I just love the movie. I think it's really, really good and I was forgetting it a little bit.

• 58:01Sean Fennessey?

  And so I was happy to be reminded. Okay. Anybody else have Sinners on their list? I do. Yes.

• 58:06Amanda Dobbins?

  You do?

• 58:06Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Anybody else have Train Dreams on their list? Anybody else have Ephes on their list?

• 58:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow. Okay.

• 58:13Speaker 03

  Ephes is, but Ephes is really good.

• 58:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Ephes is really, it is really good.

• 58:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 03

  Ephes is really good.

• 58:18Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Adam, number four.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  So my number four, I'm just, I'm torn because I don't want to cheat. Like, I want to do the actual top five, but there's like two movies. This is one of them where I've literally been on the pod to talk about them. So I might ask for like special dispensation to talk about an extra movie at the end. That's like just in my top 10, but I really like. But my actual number four is Cloud, which you had me on to talk about. And I don't want to, I don't want to be redundant about it. This Kiyoshi Kurosawa's film, very funny sinister thriller about a kind of internet reseller who pisses off his clientele to the point that they want to, you know, hunt him down and torture him on live TV. Like, we've talked about it, which doesn't mean I, you know, I don't want to say anything, but, you know, it was really nice. We had space to talk about it and Kurosawa and the extent to which he's broken through in the West.

• 59:05Speaker 03

  I mean, I think this movie being on Criterion Channel, being put out as a Criterion premiere. I mean, before that, when it was being distributed by Sideshow out of its festival, like it just seemed to get more attention than he gets usually. So it's an excellent gateway backwards into the filmography. But also just in terms of form, you know, I've said this before, but the way he sets his camera up and the way he cuts and the way he holds your attention, I just think he's peerless. I don't know if this is even his best movie. I mean, it's not, but even a kind of low first tier Kurosawa movie as a new release is just, it's going to be something that I'm going to think is great. And I think Cloud, in particular, the way it morphs from kind of not supernatural,

• 59:47Speaker 03

  but a very moody thriller into just a full-on action film. I loved reading reviews and seeing what people tried to compare it to. People were like, this is like Call of Duty. And people were like, this is like Reservoir Dogs or John Woo, you know, this, you know, or, or, or, um, you know, Johnny To film. But when it turns into the warehouse shootout, it's really quite hilarious.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  Have you seen this?

• 1:00:08Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Now I have to leave the podcast.

• 1:00:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Sean Fennessey?

  I think you'll enjoy this. It is a little, a lot of people definitely watched it after hearing you recommend it on the show. And, you know, we were like, yeah, I think I kept saying it was like heat for dumb guys. And.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  So the town?

• 1:00:27Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. No, like, like heat with fuckups in it.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  Oh, I see.

• 1:00:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. And.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  So the town.

• 1:00:35Sean Fennessey?

  I may have wrong footed them a little bit. They were like, I did not understand this. And I do think if you've seen other Kurisawa movies, it is a little bit more legible in terms of what he's interested in. Fair to say?

• 1:00:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, he is, and I, this is a very high compliment from me. He is a weirdo.

• 1:00:49Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Speaker 03

  You know, he's a, he's a weirdo. And I remember when I interviewed him this year at TIFF, I've been really lucky over the years getting to talk to him about different films. He said that he wanted this to have what he called a kind of movie logic. He wanted reality to unfold according to kind of film logic. And he's such a cinephile himself. He's a great fan, he said, of John Carpenter and David Cronenberg. He mentioned Park Chan Wook as a director who he really admires. And there are some similarities in this to certain of, of Park's films. But yeah, he's very, very weird and he's very, very funny, but filmmaking is also quite severe. And I hope more people check it out in his other films as a result of a podcast like this because he's not obscure or difficult in any way. He's just odd. And I think he's one of the best living filmmakers, just period.

• 1:01:35Amanda Dobbins?

  This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by State Farm. Having people in your corner to help you makes all the difference. For example, I'm usually loathe to trust Sean and his movie recommendations. But after many months of him waxing rhapsodic about Train Dreams, I finally watched it and I have to be honest, he was right. It was wonderful.

• 1:01:53Sean Fennessey?

  And like those people, State Farm is there to help you feel supported by helping you choose the coverage you need. Go online at statefarm.com or use the award winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:02:06Sean Fennessey?

  Amanda, number four.

• 1:02:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Is if I had legs, I'd kick you. Um, here come the moms.

• 1:02:13Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, let's discuss this.

• 1:02:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, well, we'll discuss it some more, maybe.

• 1:02:17Sean Fennessey?

  This is the rise of mommy mommy.

• 1:02:19Amanda Dobbins?

  This is.

• 1:02:20Sean Fennessey?

  Not Star Wars mommy, not Gen Z mommy, just mommy mommy.

• 1:02:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Because, you know, Train Dreams has many themes, but he is a father and the his relationship with his daughter is like a central part of the of the film and very moving. And, you know, there is an open hearted quality to the way that story and that relationship is told, even though it is like, it's very, very sad. And if I had legs, I'd kick you, which is one of the mom movies is just absolutely the most nauseous I've been in a movie theater all year, like, just hard, ugly, mean shit. And, and like parenthesis, compliment, you know, parenthesis complimentary.

• 1:03:04Amanda Dobbins?

  So it is, I mean, it is a movie about how difficult being specifically a mother and not a father is. It is a film by Mary Bronstein, written and directed and starring Rose Byrne. And her performance is really picking up steam in award season as well, deservedly. But she is taking care of a child with kind of an unspecified illness. And her husband is away at work and on the phone. And again, I don't want to spoil who it is on the phone, but it's really funny when.

• 1:03:37Sean Fennessey?

  Wonderful reveal.

• 1:03:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Really, really, really good. And she just, she just can't do it. It's impossible and it's really hard. And it is, it's a very cinematic movie that is also like a systemic critique of all the ways in which the whole world fails.

• 1:03:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Like makes it impossible to be a mother, whether it is the people at work or the, you know, people at the hospital system, like the, the person at the motel who will not sell you the bottle of wine, even though it's not quite midnight yet, or 2am or whatever.

• 1:04:12Sean Fennessey?

  I love, I love the parking lot attendant.

• 1:04:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Sean Fennessey?

  Her war with the parking lot attendant is great.

• 1:04:17Amanda Dobbins?

  But like that is so insane and, and we all know people like that, which is just like, how can you not see the person standing in front of you and like, how do you not understand the situation and that everyone is just trying to, to get by and like, not even do the best for their kid, but just like trying to make it happen. And the world is heartless and impervious in front of that so often. So I thought it's like a really tough, but like also very funny movie. Another, a great movie about how therapy like is pretty useless, which I'm like into as well. You know, like we've had too much therapy art and this is, um, and without spoiling it, the, there's a filmmaking choice throughout

• 1:04:59Amanda Dobbins?

  the movie. And then at the end that is, it, it ranks up there with the endings of the movies this year and is in conversation with a lot of them, but is truly wonderful.

• 1:05:08Sean Fennessey?

  So I'm really glad that you picked this.

• 1:05:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Sean Fennessey?

  Um, we're at the time of the year where my wife is catching up on a lot of the movies of the year.

• 1:05:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:16Sean Fennessey?

  And so she's watching screeners and she's checking in on things that I've been talking about and seeing and telling her about for months and months. So Monday night I went out to a screening to see Avatar with you and she watched Train Dreams and I got home and Train Dreams had been over for an hour and she had been crying for the entire hour of the film that ended. And then Tuesday night I went out to a screening.

• 1:05:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:38Sean Fennessey?

  And I came home and she'd completed If I Had Legs I'd Kick You.

• 1:05:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Wow.

• 1:05:41Sean Fennessey?

  And she was like, why did you do this to me?

• 1:05:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Sean Fennessey?

  Because it transports you back to a place.

• 1:05:46Amanda Dobbins?

  And you're the asshole out at a movie.

• 1:05:48Sean Fennessey?

  And I was at a movie. Um, well, we had a, she apparently had a wonderful night with our daughter, but. She was like, for three years, I was inside of this mind state.

• 1:05:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. And there was a hole in your ceiling at one point.

• 1:05:59Sean Fennessey?

  There literally was a hole in our ceiling. Yes. I said to Mary when I interviewed her on the show, I was just like, I really want to recommend this movie to my wife and I think she'll love it. But I also am afraid to recommend it to her because you really tapped into something true. And with, with, I think genuinely interesting filmmaking choices. So I like, I love that pick.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Great pick.

• 1:06:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you.

• 1:06:17Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, CR, number four.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Mine is Sinners. Not a ton to add to what you said. The second viewing of Sinners for me also, what stood out was obviously the music that's just featured in the film, but the musicality of the film itself. The way that you see very few Hollywood films go for the ecstatic in this way and be so, like it's arterial spray. It's kind of lingus. It is like sweaty. It's dancing. And I think that this movie in my mind almost was, is now underrated.

• 1:06:50Sean Fennessey?

  I was having the same feeling last night.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  And one of the best film going experiences I had this year, I think the, the most I've felt kind of like physically engaged in a film outside of maybe F1, you know, was watching Sinners and just like watching the other faces in the audience while I was watching it like light up at certain scenes. And I think that, you know, even the problems, this is the cheat is when you're like, yeah, but like the problems are cool. Or like the, the big swings that missed are cool, but they are like your mileage may vary on Piercing the Veil, but I thought it was an amazing swing to take and I really admire the bravery of it. This film is awesome. The performances are great. So yeah, I thought that was my number four.

• 1:07:34Sean Fennessey?

  Great pick. Okay. Number four for me is Marty's Supreme. This is a little hard to talk about because it's not out yet, right? We've mentioned a couple of times that it's, it's that we love it, that we think it's great. I think it's always a little annoying for the listener at home to have to hear someone talk about a movie that hasn't been released yet, that is on one of these lists. These are just the vagaries of list making in the, in the podcasting universe. But this is Josh Safdie's new film, stars Timothy Chalamet as a competitive ping pong player in the 1950s, living in New York City. And he is a very aspirational, ambitious, and at times hard hearted and extremely difficult person. I think one of the most interesting movies I've seen about how a lot of men are in their twenties.

• 1:08:18Sean Fennessey?

  Which is fast talking, rude,

• 1:08:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:23Sean Fennessey?

  hurtful, intoxicating, gifted, fun to be around and also exhausting. And, you know, I, I really love the Safdie Brothers movies and I've been, been interested in their project for a long, long time. And this felt to me like the highest that they had gotten to, to the feeling that they wanted to convey. And I also think the movie, I think he's an interesting writer, him and Ronald Bronstein, Mary Bronstein's husband, actually. When it comes to the world that he surrounds Marty with,

• 1:08:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55Sean Fennessey?

  which is very lived in, very real, very suspicious of everyone. I think there is like a big heart, but a big cynical chip on the shoulder about everyone that, that Marty is exposed to and raised by and falls in love with. And that the world is a hard world and that there's upside to being as hard as you are. And that there's also real downside. And I don't want to give away too many of our thematic discussions here that we'll get into when the film comes out. But felt like to me, the cherry on top of what I thought movies were about this year.

• 1:09:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Sean Fennessey?

  When we got to the end. So I love this movie. I am at the disadvantage, I like to have seen the movies that I put on my list twice. I've only seen this movie one time. It was a few months ago. I, I don't remember every single kernel of information about it. I liked being able to go back and revisit a bunch of the ones that I'm going to talk about today. But I had a grand old time seeing this for the first time. So that's number four for me. Okay, Adam, number three.

• 1:09:49Speaker 03

  My number three is one battle after another, which I'm sure will come up for you guys on, on, on your lists. Should we save it? I mean,

• 1:09:59Amanda Dobbins?

  It's your turn.

• 1:10:00Speaker 03

  It's my, it's my turn. Well, I mean, you, we actually talked about the movie already on this, on this podcast. I just recorded a different podcast with a different set of people about the film. I'm at the point now where also this term at U of T, I just finished doing my authorship class. We've just had like six weeks on Paul Thomas Anderson and, you know, that stuff that I'm teaching, but it's also discussions with students and looking at movies and doing readings. So I'll think on the one hand, I'm very inundated with this movie, but it also feels kind of oddly far away because. I watched it a long time ago for the first time. I wrote about it. The second time I watched it was at home. I still haven't seen it in like, you know, biggest format presentation, you know, possible. And it's a filmmaker who obviously means

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

  something to me, not just in terms of liking him, but I've done a lot of work on him. So in a way, it's almost like too much with this movie. I just hear people talk about it all the time. I'm extremely interested in the negative reactions to it. I think the negative reactions to it are fair. I think some of the negative reactions to it are kind of undeniable and not because they're mean spirited or asking it to be something that it's not. But I think I said this to you guys last time. It's a function of how big the movie is. I'm fascinated how the film can be the most commercially successful movie he's made exponentially, but also like the closest thing to a financial disaster. I'm interested in how a filmmaker who's been criticized, I think rightly in

• 1:11:24Speaker 03

  the past for staying too much in his lane, has now done this huge swerve and it's a whole other, you know, series of crashes and sideswipes that happen. As a result, I'm really fascinated by how much it resembles his other work while also being in some ways, you know, very different. What I said to you guys last time, I will say this, that I don't think you often have to look too hard at his movies to find him. Like, he's right there. And part of my struggle with this film, which I obviously like, I read a very positive review of it for the site. I'm not against the film. I just picked it as the third best movie of the year, you know. But some of my resistance has been like, where do I find the weird Paul Thomas Anderson, the ambiguous one where it's not

• 1:12:05Speaker 03

  a one to one ratio between what he's showing us and what I'm seeing. Last time I watched it, I recognized him a bit more. And I wonder if I'm willing myself towards that because I really want to like his work, or if it's because it's kind of present and encoded into that movie. But in a way, I'm also just tired of the movie because we've just started. We just have, the award season thing has kind of just started. And I think that the title, One Battle After Another, is going to start to be how people feel about this discourse around it, because it's nowhere near over, you know?

• 1:12:40Sean Fennessey?

  We were talking about that at the top of this episode, Adam, that there's many months now of this. Yeah. I had a very hard time pacing myself at the beginning at the release. Did you? Yeah. I didn't notice that. But I, we will, we will have to talk about it more for a variety of reasons. Okay, number three, Amanda.

• 1:12:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, another one for the mamas, uh, Die My Love, which, uh, is the Lynn Ramsey movie, uh, starring Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson that I think, you know, has become most famous as a example of, uh, movies questionable distribution strategy in year two. But I think that that is unfair to, to a movie and certainly to the film, which, um, to me was electric and is the most I've laughed in a movie theater this year and is, it's another, it's another movie about just how motherhood is just absolutely impossible.

• 1:13:35Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and to me, it is a movie about how motherhood just like completely divides you from your other self. Um, and so like being, being a, a human woman and a mom at this, at the same time, does drive you to some sort of psychosis. And it can be, you know, like pretty literal as it does become in this film, which is based on a novel, which is about like severe postpartum depression and psychosis. And she's hospitalized and all of that. And I did feel that the representations of that literal experience were great in this movie.

• 1:14:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And it communicated something like pretty physical and feral about that time period of your life that I really responded to because it is surprisingly physical. And like, I, I, you know, I, I know a lot of people like made fun of just like Jennifer Lawrence, like crawling around on the floor. Like she's like capital G going for it. But I don't know how else to tell you that that like literally is what it feels like for the first however many months when you're it's just something really like primal takes over your body. So I responded to that. But I do, to me, I liked the movie more just as like a representation of the very like complex and troubled psychological state that she's

• 1:14:57Amanda Dobbins?

  in mostly because she's a new mom, but also just because she's a person in the world and her husband like brought home a new dog and moved her to Montana and is nice and really cute and Batman, but also like useless. And

• 1:15:11Sean Fennessey?

  Waiting to hear the downside of any of those things. That all sounds great.

• 1:15:15Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, I did also, I saw this film with my husband. And I should say, I started, this is another thing where to Adam's point, some of this is personal. I started 2025, three months postpartum, and then fires swept through Los Angeles and I left, you know, my home in a hurry. So there is, there is some relating to aspects of the text here. But

• 1:15:38Sean Fennessey?

  It literally maps onto it.

• 1:15:39Amanda Dobbins?

  An incredible afternoon date movie with the husband and the father of your children, who also, by the way, loved it, thinks it's a really sick movie. So shout out, you know, shout out family and shout this, you know, shout out all the mamas, capital M.

• 1:15:54Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think another Lynn Ramsey film will be released on 2,500 screens in the future?

• 1:16:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Probably not, but I don't think that's anybody's fault.

• 1:16:03Sean Fennessey?

  I like this movie.

• 1:16:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I do, but you know, it's really, it's a great movie.

• 1:16:06Sean Fennessey?

  KCR, number three.

• 1:16:09Speaker 02

  Weapons.

• 1:16:10Amanda Dobbins?

  There we go.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Uh, this is my wicked. No, no, I, like, one that I think you can experience a couple of different ways. And it's been really enjoyable to piece together how I feel about weapons by through multiple viewings. So the first time through, it's like almost like a pure plot experience. You're racing to kind of pull ahead of and or keep up with Cregger throughout the movie as he tells this story in this kind of short story anthology way of switching POV between these characters. The second time through, I felt Because I was able to just kind of enjoy the little tricks he was playing, the little things that I hadn't noticed before. But the third time I watched this movie, I think I really started to try to understand how I felt about it and what I think he was trying to say.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  Probably gonna be a mileage may vary for people or depending on how you look at it and where you are in your life. I thought it was about why we need horror movies in the first place and the reasons why we create these sort of mythical figures at the monsters at the end of the dream from True Detective to explain the inexplorable tragedies that happen in our lives. And I thought that the way it dealt with addiction and the tragedies that can befall our community was really, really interesting. And aside from that, what a fucking rock and roll movie that is just an absolute blast to watch, still has images that are seared in my brain, the kids with their

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  arms to the side, obviously, the hysterical ending of the movie.

• 1:17:43Amanda Dobbins?

  It's so good.

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  And the image of Benedict Wong running towards Julia Garner and Josh Brolin at the gas station, just some of my my favorite sort of lasting memories of film in 2025 are gonna be from Weapons.

• 1:17:59Amanda Dobbins?

  That opening when they're and what is the music that is playing?

• 1:18:03Sean Fennessey?

  Beware of Darkness by George Harrison.

• 1:18:05Amanda Dobbins?

  It's really very special.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  Felt like a movie also. I mean, this is, this isn't really like, oh, this is why it's in the top five. But I love when I'm seeing images that I think have haunted a filmmaker for a really long time and he finally got it on screen. And there was something about the kids running that I felt like I was like, you saw this in a nightmare, or you saw this in your childhood or something, and it's been percolating in your mind for a really long time. So I that definitely, I think I'll revisit it again, but I encourage people to do so.

• 1:18:33Sean Fennessey?

  I told you earlier this week that this isn't on my top five. I told you it was my number seven, which it still is my number seven after all this whinging I've been doing this week. And

• 1:18:42Sean Fennessey?

  You were surprised.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  I was.

• 1:18:43Amanda Dobbins?

  I was as well. I assumed it would be on the list.

• 1:18:45Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I love it too. I don't, you know, it's a pretty thin line here.

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:18:49Sean Fennessey?

  In my top 10, you know.

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  The theories are pretty collapsed here.

• 1:18:52Sean Fennessey?

  I like my 10 a lot. And I'm glad, like, you're feeling, like, if I had legs, is it number 10 for me? Like, there's some, hopefully, we're talking through some of these movies that we all like so much.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Adam, I know that you were a little bit less sold on Weapons, but have you happened to revisit it since your initial review for The Ringer?

• 1:19:08Speaker 03

  I haven't revisited it. I have read interesting things about it from friends. I think that the guy, the Cragger, he's, it's an interesting trend of comedians now making horror movies. And it's not just an anecdotal thing where it's like, well, who are all these comedians making horror movies? The way that they, with it, under the sign of Jordan Peele, like, there's these strategies where they have a kind of blackout sketch mentality, which is, you know, you develop the idea, you develop the idea, and it's like, how long is their attention span? I thought that Barbarian worked really well because the movie kept changing.

• 1:19:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:40Speaker 03

  And similarly here, he keeps doubling back because it's like, the sketch has almost kind of reached its end, and then he kind of needs to start another one. So whether I think it works or not, I think it's an interesting byproduct of the guy being a comedian. I thought, I said this in the piece, that there's things about it that are effective and that work very well. And I think that some of the acting in it, especially at the beginning, is really terrific. Like, Garner's.

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  Garner's amazing in this.

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  She's so good in the scene in the bar.

• 1:20:07Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:20:07Speaker 03

  You know, at the beginning of the film, which isn't like a heavy, like, a heavy load-bearing scene plot-wise, but she's just really good. And Brolin is good as well. But no, it's not a movie that totally worked for me. But I like hearing you talk about it, and certainly, you know, as someone who's interested in horror and trends in horror, this is kind of a big film. I feel like we're gonna see lots of movies that are trying to be like this, or at least be marketed.

• 1:20:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:34Speaker 03

  This way. Like, you know, this is a movie where I think more than Long Legs, like, Long Legs was all campaign, not much movie. This was like a, you know, better campaign and a better movie. But even when stuff like Shelby Oaks was being marketed in the fall, I sort of thought, oh, they're trying to market it like Weapons. Because, you know, with horror movies, so much about marketing, you don't have a star, and sometimes you don't have existent intellectual property. So the extent to which this film was a smash hit as an original piece is obviously a thing you want to see happen.

• 1:21:04Sean Fennessey?

  Part of the fun of Weapons is seeing it with a crowd for the first time. We had no idea what to expect. It's a movie that multiple viewings, it may or may not stand up, it's debatable, but it was just electrifying the first time I saw it. I just had so much fun. And that's true for a lot of the movies on my list, but that one did have a very particular energy to it. I really like what you said, though, and I had not heard that identified in quite that way, that his history as a sketch performer and the fact that his films do have this kind of structural, like this is an episode of Saturday Night Live, full of nightmares feeling to it. And I do wonder if his future movies, if Resident Evil will be more linear or not.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:40Sean Fennessey?

  Because he's doing things, probably, as Adam says, inspired by what he knows best.

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  I think he equally draws from like Tarantino's script writing in that same way. But yeah, for sure, I think that there is a ticking clock in his brain that's like, I'm bored, I want to try, like, I want to do this from somebody else's POV.

• 1:21:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. Yeah, that's cool. Okay. My number three is No Other Choice, which is Park Chan Wook's new movie, which is also not out yet, and I apologize again. We'll do a whole episode about the film in January when it gets a wide release. But this is his long gestating adaptation of The Axe by Donald Westlake, a novel about a man who is going to be laid off from his longtime job. I believe in the film, it's at a paper company. In this film, no, in the book, it's different. I don't think it's a paper company. In the movie, it's a man who, a Korean man who works at a paper company. He's a father of two children. He's married. He's living the middle-class suburban dream. And then an American company comes in, buys the company, there's consolidation. And after he is laid off, he needs to find

• 1:22:41Sean Fennessey?

  a way to get a new job. And he has a really hard time finding a new job. And he concocts a scheme to eliminate potential contenders for the few existing jobs that are left at rival paper companies around town. This is extremely funny, elaborate, absurd.

• 1:23:00Sean Fennessey?

  High drama, high comedy work of an established master, like a person who knows how to make a movie better than most people who know how to make it. There are formal tricks in the movie I've not seen before. There are superimpositions, cutting style, transitions, metaphorical leaning, a really outsized and fun performance by Li Bianheng. This movie is an absolute blast. I thought it was really, really funny, really, really, really silly. And also, if you want it to be very cogent satire about, you know, the corporate complex, the incursion of AI,

• 1:23:42Sean Fennessey?

  essentially what happens to men when they reach a certain stage of their life, how they confuse virility and economic status. There's an incredible amount of design. I also talked to Dr. Park for the show, which will air in January. That was fascinating because in the interview, I don't know if I've ever had this before, and I'm not saying this is a good thing, but every time I would ask a question, he would explain entirely how he executed on the thing I asked about and also what it means.

• 1:24:15Sean Fennessey?

  And I've interviewed hundreds of filmmakers, and most of the time they're like, "You figure it out, asshole." You know, like, you can't be like, "What were you thinking thematically?" Like, anytime you say that, people are just, directors like shoot me in the face. And he's like, "No, this is exactly what I was going for. This is what I hope you'll think about when you watch the sequence." Right. And I was already in love with the movie before that, but it was fascinating to watch someone, see how deeply he had thought through every single decision, not just on that formal level, which is so thrilling, but intellectually and emotionally and what it meant to him. And I hope people go to see this movie because I think it's a great time. Okay, number two, Adam.

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  So just gonna say no other choice. You emailed me, you were surprised. You were like, why didn't you like this movie? Just gonna say that this, it is absolutely the best made movie of the year that I personally didn't like. You know, and the personally didn't like part is a whole other conversation, but like craft wise, man, oh, man. I mean, you know,

• 1:25:12Sean Fennessey?

  Out of this world.

• 1:25:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And like in a very showy way.

• 1:25:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it is. But I emailed you because I watched it first because you told me you didn't, you didn't love it. And then I hadn't seen it when you said that you'd seen it at Venice and you loved it.

• 1:25:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Liked it a lot.

• 1:25:26Sean Fennessey?

  And so I watched it and I was like, damn, I can't believe I had something like this. And then I watched it a second time to prepare for the interview. And that was when I emailed you where I was like, what's going on, bro? We're usually aligned on these.

• 1:25:35Speaker 03

  It's one of my, one of my trademark, I'm just wrong, you know? Cause like,

• 1:25:41Speaker 03

  I took, I took shit from this from friends during Tiff two, like literally walking out of the screening. People be like, so that was great, right? And I was like, you know, it's the strangest thing. I gotta go be on my phone, you know, I'll see you guys. I just felt, I felt, I felt, I felt bad. But that thing you were saying about explaining the intent, it ties to the second movie. My, my number two movie, which is, you know, I'm going to be very on brand and pick the shrouds, which is a film that I think that what excites me about it. And I think why people are kind of skeptical. Cause I've been talking about this movie at least here a lot. I mean, two tiffs ago, you know? And there's this feeling, oh, it's because it's a Toronto movie or it's because of Cronenberg's past movies. The thing about no other choice is you can tell he's getting every effect that he wants.

• 1:26:25Speaker 03

  What I love about the shrouds is I feel like Cronenberg is getting every effect that he wants, but it's just right on that borderline of like, is this just inept and off, you know? And I don't say that perversely, like people have talked about it pertaining to late style. And people have talked about how much it's supposed to be funny, but of all the movies this year, it's the one I've watched the most because I take great pleasure watching it. I've, I've watched it three or four times and he is so relaxed. He does not care how people are going to react and respond to this movie. There's a confidence in this movie that I find moving quite apart from the things in the film that are moving because it is about aging and it is about loss and grief and death. I think I told a story when we talked with movie on the pod that I had a friend who saw

• 1:27:10Speaker 03

  this movie during Tiff, who had lost someone important in their life to, to, to cancer. They couldn't get through the film, which is totally at odds with how goofy it is, but it's not because the goofiness of it and the kind of speculative sci fi of it, there is such a reservoir of grief in this movie, personal grief from the filmmaker and an understanding of how grief and loss makes people crazy. It's easily the best like brain worm conspiracy movie that anyone's made, much better than Begonia. I like Eddington fine, as we've talked about. I think there's a whole subgenre of kind of brain wormed discourse movies this year and how people invent, invent conspiracy theories to kind of get over what's bothering them. And I'm like, Shroud understands this. Yeah.

• 1:27:52Speaker 03

  And the Shroud sort of understands that relationship to, you know, sex and marriage and to what happens when it feels like your other part is just kind of gone. You know, I have friends who've lost partners or separate, even separated from partners who watch this movie and find it sort of impossibly moving. And he just cannot be budged from his style and from his sensibility and his tone. And I guess I see so many filmmakers now being praised or saying themselves, very sincerely, by the way, I do not blame any of them for saying, we love David Cronenberg. This has been all over acceptance speeches for the last few years at festivals and festival rollouts where it's like trying to make this Cronenbergian or Cronenberg's the best or, oh man, you know, I grew up on those films.

• 1:28:36Speaker 03

  I respect all of that, even though some of the filmmakers I like more than others. But like the actual guy is still here. You know, needing financing for the work and making films that like this that are so small and scrappy, so obviously shot in Toronto that the milk comes out of a bag, you know? I want, I, I need, I need this for, for me, I need this to be kind of respected and admired, admired and celebrated while we have it. I love how close it is to seeming like a terrible movie. And I don't mean for that to be perverse. I mean it. It's so confident and I just, I think it's brilliant.

• 1:29:09Sean Fennessey?

  I do chalk up some of that offness to budget. I, I wonder if this is a movie that has 10 or 12 million dollars more in its budget that it, because its conception is extremely strong, but some of the things that he's trying to pull off visually are challenging at the scope of the movie. But I agree, I think this is a great movie. I had a really hard chuckle watching the Ready or Not 2 trailer yesterday and seeing that he is in the film, which is, you know, something he has done many times over the years. He's incredible in Nightbreed, the Clive Barker movie from some years ago. So he, he will act from time to time, but uh, him taking that gig in the aftermath of making The Shrouds 2, I was like, good, just keep, keep stacking cheddar.

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  Adam, I like, when you say, uh, The Shrouds understands this, I like the idea that The Shrouds is like the spice from Dude.

• 1:29:56Speaker 03

  The, the Shrouds understands, you know, you're, you're referring to the cameo in this Ready or Not 2 sequel. I think To Die For, I know it's on Criterion, I don't know if it's on Criterion Channel, still like not an obscure movie. That is my favorite director cameo in any film. When Cronenberg shows up at the end of, of To Die For as this inexplicably Italian hitman who keeps looking, looking at Nicole Kidman and be like, no, no, this way, come this way. And it's because I think the film was shot partially in Toronto, because Van Sant definitely did, did Good Will Hunting in Toronto. But yeah, that idea of directors who cameo not in their own movies, but just kind of show up around the edges of other people's, that's an all time, an all time funny one for me.

• 1:30:37Sean Fennessey?

  Great stuff.

• 1:30:38Speaker 03

  Cronenberg in To Die For.

• 1:30:40Sean Fennessey?

  I honestly thought this was coming in at number one for you. So now.

• 1:30:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, now I'm trying to figure out what, but, but don't tell me.

• 1:30:45Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, Amanda, number two.

• 1:30:46Amanda Dobbins?

  So my number two is Marty Supreme, which I, um, to Sean's point, most people haven't seen it and there's not a lot that I can say or add to what Sean said that won't totally spoil it, including why it's on my themed list, but uh, like to quote Stefan, this movie has everything. And it's just like, it is really, and I won't enumerate what the things are, though there are like, are many of them. You know, and some of them are just like the sweeping, they recreate the whole world again with like with Jack Fisk, I believe is the production designer, like, you know, the Darius Kanji score, like Timothy Chalamet. Daniel LaPattin. Oh, sorry. Daniel LaPattin score. And then, um, who was Darius Kanji then? He's the cinematographer. Cinematographer, thank you. Sorry, I was confusing them.

• 1:31:31Amanda Dobbins?

  And then, um, Timothy Chalamet going a million, like a million, a really, really fun, a great supporting cast. And it's just people going for it, you know? Like, and that is just, it's really, I didn't feel like there were that many movies where this year, with the exception of one we'll probably talk about soon, where everyone was just like, let's go really big. Like, we've got, uh, we've got a big idea and we're gonna spend all of this time and energy and create like a whole world and have an immersive experience. Like you, I have only seen it the one time. Yeah. Um, a couple of months ago, but had so much fun and can't wait to see it again.

• 1:32:15Sean Fennessey?

  This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Amazon Prime. What pairs with a good comedy? The cozy blanket arriving with Prime. What pairs with a nail biting thriller? Snacks arriving with Prime. What pairs with big game on Prime Video? That new couch arriving with Prime. Whatever feeling you're after, Prime helps bring it to life with great entertainment and fast shipping that delivers what the moment calls for. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 1:32:40Speaker 04

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• 1:33:04Sean Fennessey?

  So that is actually the theme of my list that like we are all going for it. Yeah. So all five of my movies have that energy and I think I'm hoping that that's representative of what I want from the movies more broadly. Okay, number two for you, C.

• 1:33:15Speaker 02

  Oh, number two for me is One Battle After Another. Uh, so.

• 1:33:19Sean Fennessey?

  Wow. Wow, saving space for ballerina.

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  The gorge, man.

• 1:33:26Speaker 02

  One Battle After Another, only in number two by the thinnest of most personal margins. So don't take it in any kind of like, I'm trying to be a takesman here. It was the cinematic experience of the year for me. Getting to see it at IMAX, I've seen it several times since then. I also really love to just piggyback off of what Adam was saying about it, the shoulders of this movie in that it supports so many different explorations, both critical, both sort of probing at it and wondering why this choice, why that choice. I also am deeply fascinated by it as a work of expectation and spent the last couple of months like not slogging in a bad way, but slogging just because of the way my brain

• 1:34:09Speaker 02

  is now through Vineland and thinking about this guy, thinking about this book for decades and piecing together little parts of it and seeing, you know, reflections of Regina Hall's character, Tiana Taylor's character, Leonardo DiCaprio's character in the book and also just imagining, opening up that book to any page and then watching what he does with like a flashback within a flashback within an anecdote within another flashback, then zapping to something else and be like, how the fuck did you write exterior this after reading that? Like the act of writing this movie is now become like my obsession of like how he went about making this in as a screenplay. So that's where I'm where I'm

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  at with it, just in terms of how I've been thinking about it. But it's just so wonderful how adorable this movie is and how how it's it's been, it's actually got a sturdiness to be poked at and to be thought about and to be talked about. So yeah, one battle.

• 1:35:11Sean Fennessey?

  I've been pleased to see that it's been a number one on iTunes for the last three weeks. Oh, that's good. It's encouraging. That will not be reported in its box office receipts. Just putting that out there.

• 1:35:21Sean Fennessey?

  I see Van Lathan through the window. That was for you, Van. That was for you, brother. I was talking about One Battles Box Office, which is doing just fine, dude. All right. Back off. Um, okay. Number two for me is Eddington. Good.

• 1:35:34Sean Fennessey?

  This can be our brain worms pairing.

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  Should I show you my phone for the entirety? Should I just stick it in your face?

• 1:35:40Sean Fennessey?

  Eddington is on my list for a variety of reasons. I think it's Ari's best movie. I think it is, I'm not quite seen a film attempt to be simultaneously a docu-drama and a satire. A movie that knows that it wants to be funny and poke you and bother you and put you in a state of discomfort and remind you of things that are not safe and not okay. While also saying like, this is not really that far from what happened. And that thin line in the exploration of that little stinker attitude that Ari Aster has about everybody where he's like, wouldn't it be funny if I just knocked this girl's, this little girl's head off? You know, that, that, wouldn't it be funny if this old man just jumped off the top of this mountain? He does that many times in this movie. There are a number of occasions in which you see atrociously painful things happen to people who could be seen as innocent.

• 1:36:26Sean Fennessey?

  I think one of the reasons why this movie really got put in the take blender is because people on both sides felt offended. Congratulations. That's part of the success of the film. I think there's also a case from a purely formal perspective that this is so assured and so conceived and realized. I also watched this movie again last night, popped it in as one does. And from its very opening moments, which struck me so hard the second time I saw it. All the way through the end, everything he is trying to communicate is very clear. It will not come across, I think, if you are watching it casually on your couch with your phone in your hand, but. That's the point. Seeing the unhoused man walking across.

• 1:37:06Speaker 02

  What a year for Clifton Collins, by the way.

• 1:37:09Sean Fennessey?

  Giving a great performance, underrated performance. Walking past the sign about the establishment of the incoming data center and then all the events that transpire and then the closing moments of the film where we see said data center constructed.

• 1:37:22Sean Fennessey?

  I, I do think is a, is a, a great big statement about living under the thumb of powers that are much bigger than us. And what we do to each other in the face of that loss of control. And I think it's an amazing Joaquin performance. I think Joaquin and Aster have something very unique in terms of their collaboration and what they get out of each other. But I think it is really more like,

• 1:37:44Sean Fennessey?

  people don't like this movie because it makes them feel bad about things that have happened in the world.

• 1:37:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:49Sean Fennessey?

  And not in the, not in the like,

• 1:37:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:37:51Sean Fennessey?

  extratextual, I am a mom and I remember feeling pain. In the specific, I remember this day and I hate this day. And that's hard to do. That's hard to accomplish. We talked about 25th hour recently and like the pain and the agony, like the,

• 1:38:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:38:04Sean Fennessey?

  sorrow of nine 11 in the face of that movie. That's different than what this is. This is more like, we're all complicit. It's not really your fault, but you're not making it any better. And that's a bad feeling.

• 1:38:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:38:16Sean Fennessey?

  But it's a true feeling.

• 1:38:16Amanda Dobbins?

  And it's also done. And there's nothing

• 1:38:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:38:19Amanda Dobbins?

  that you can do to undo it. Uh, that, I mean, that final shot is absolutely brutal.

• 1:38:24Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, I also just think it's very, very funny. So I'm a huge admirer of this movie. It really stands up, I think, to a lot of its inspection that it has gotten over the last few months. And, uh, happy to have it at number two. Okay. It's time for number one.

• 1:38:38Speaker 03

  It's good to see the irony with adding ten is the discourse at Cannes, which is not even a year ago now, is that the movie was too soon, which is one thing. And now it's been out for five or six months and it's aged well.

• 1:38:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:50Speaker 03

  You know, like, I think, I, I, I, it's not in my top five. I, spoiler, it's not quite in my top 10, but I still wrote about it in the year end thing as an honorable or a dishonorable mention because it's good for all the reasons Sean said it is. But it's aged very well. And I think a lot of the initial Cannes reactions to it do not look very smart. I'll, I'll, I'll say that for sure. Speaking of Cannes, uh, my number one film was the film that won the Palme d'Or at Cannes this year, which is Jafar Panahi's It Was Just An Accident. I was listening in before I came on that you had Panahi on the show, which is amazing.

• 1:39:24Sean Fennessey?

  It was amazing.

• 1:39:25Speaker 03

  And I can't wait to listen to that. As I always listen to the interviews, whether Jafar Panahi or Oskar Perkins or whoever, I can't wait. But,

• 1:39:33Sean Fennessey?

  Two filmmakers of equal stature and equal success.

• 1:39:37Speaker 03

  But this is a film that, you know, beyond talking about why it's good, I hesitate to spoil it too much because it is a thriller. And this is an interesting year for Neon picking up international films and sort of trying to market them, not just to an arthouse audience, but market them as kind of arthouse event experiences like Serat, a really interesting film that I also like, you know, Neon did that and it was just an accident.

• 1:40:02Speaker 03

  This is a filmmaker who is known in the West more for the details of his life than for the Western distribution of his films. And I think that people were skeptical of Panahi winning the Palme d'Or at Cannes this year because it's like, well, he's being rewarded for the political struggle, or he's being rewarded for what he represents, or he's being rewarded as a shot across the bow of a repressive regime. And, you know, all of that is sort of true, but the movie itself is so funny and brutal and visceral as this kind of possible mistaken identity thriller. And it's a real move back to the films he made before the period where he was making films illegally under house arrest. I mean, this movie was not made legally. We should be clear about this. I'm sure you talked to him about it,

• 1:40:44Speaker 03

  that a lot of it had to be shot on the fly, you know, unofficially. It's, it's an amazing act of distress to, to make a movie this way. And he's always been a critical filmmaker or a skeptical filmmaker, but he was a narrative filmmaker before. And movies like The Circle and Crimson Gold, they're kind of plot driven. They don't diverge too much from this Western idea of Iranian art cinema, you know, the Kyrastami mode or Mushin Makmabov. But he was always, he had more of an engine dramatically. And then the movies he had to make after his imprisonment and release and house arrest necessarily had no production value and no scope. They had to shrink down to the size of him making the movie. Anyone listening to the pod who hasn't seen it, he made a movie called This Is Not a Film, which is

• 1:41:27Speaker 03

  his record of house arrest where he really was not allowed to pick up a camera at that point. So he keeps finding very acute rhetorical reasons. He's like, well, I'm not really making a movie, but what if I were to do this? You know, he has that playful side.

• 1:41:39Sean Fennessey?

  He's like, let's capture the blocking of my next film on my iPhone so that I can prepare to make that film. Yeah.

• 1:41:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. If I were to do it. And then meanwhile, you know, I think in that movie, at one point you see his DVD collection and Ryan Reynolds in buried is facing right out to the screen because he's very funny. And also this is, and it was just an accident. You actually have a guy being buried alive, which is maybe more of a reference to Taste of Cherry by Kyrastami Kyrastami than, than Ryan Reynolds. But it's a terrific.

• 1:42:06Speaker 03

  Brutal, funny, you know, mistaken identity kind of ensemble thriller. And it's very slapstick, you know? It has one of the most amazing portraits of corruption I've ever seen where I will say this is the one spoiler I'll have where.

• 1:42:19Sean Fennessey?

  The credit card machine? Is that what you're gonna say?

• 1:42:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, the security guards have like tap to look the other way. And I have a friend who I have a friend who just moved back to Toronto from from Tehran, my friend Azza, and she's like, yeah, that that she's like, that scans.

• 1:42:32Sean Fennessey?

  I asked them specifically about that because that sequence is hilariously stunning.

• 1:42:37Speaker 03

  So it's just odd to see this filmmaker whose reputation precedes him in a heroic way. And now the film is going to be seen in a way that a lot of those other movies aren't seen because there is something more commercial about it. Films like Taxi or Three Faces or No Bears, they're all worth seeing, but they're very much festival films. And this is getting a push and a release and a kind of an award season profile, which is, you know, nice to see. So I should be clear, I'm not picking it for any of those extracurricular reasons, though those are interesting. And anyone who on the who's listening to the pod who doesn't know about Jafar Panahi and his story, they're lucky that they're going to get to hear you fill it in an interview. I didn't know you were doing that. That's fantastic. The movie's also really good.

• 1:43:18Speaker 03

  And, you know, I think it's it's it's it's a claim is deserved, you know, beyond the good vibes or the virtue, you know, signaling that people might feel that they're they're doing by liking it. It's just a really good movie with the best last scenes of the year.

• 1:43:34Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:43:35Speaker 03

  Last two scenes back to back and it's just an accident are absolutely amazing.

• 1:43:39Sean Fennessey?

  It's a great recommendation. I'm glad one of us has it on the list. It's a wonderful film. We'll talk more about it next week. Okay. Number one, Amanda.

• 1:43:46Amanda Dobbins?

  One battle after another.

• 1:43:47Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:43:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Not a surprise. And probably not the time last time we'll talk about it on this episode. How often do we go to the movies with this level of expectation and sit down and just walk out and be like, they did it like just absolute instant five star masterpiece, which it was, I, you know, I won't speak for Sean, he has his own turn, but I it was for me. And, you know, PT is he's pretty good. Yeah, like good track record, you know? But I still Leo, pretty good. Everybody in this this film, but I think.

• 1:44:26Amanda Dobbins?

  And to what you were saying, Sean, like the scale and the going for it and the breadth of this film, which is, you know, as Adam pointed out, like half Terminator two and like the Searchers and Casablanca and like it's, you know, all of film history incredibly rooted in our current moment from that opening scene of the detention, you know, whatever center you want to call that. The like the performances, the the set piece, like, you know, Benicio gets his moment, like Sean Penn gets his moment, the Christmas adventurers get their season. I mean, I just, it's been getting into the Christmas spirit is slightly different this year and that's okay. I knew that it would be. It'll see. But here we are.

• 1:45:11Amanda Dobbins?

  And, you know, and then I do, you know, to my theme, the both the idea like of parenthood as it is expressed in this movie, both through the Tiana Taylor character, through Porphidia, and then through Bob, the prologue and the and the and the main movie, which is kind of how I understand them. And what you like, what you give to your kids, what you do with your life, what is what is possible, what you leave behind, how you failed finding hope for the next generation. I I find it incredibly moving story in addition to being like funny and wild and virtuistic

• 1:45:56Amanda Dobbins?

  and and accessible also, you know. So I am excited to see this film again. I think we'll probably be talking about it for the next few months. But yeah, I'm a fan.

• 1:46:08Speaker 02

  Well said. CR number one. Uh, my number one is 28 Years Later. Wow.

• 1:46:15Amanda Dobbins?

  There you go. Good for you.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  Okay, so you guys have spoken very beautifully about being parents, so I'll talk a little bit about being a kid.

• 1:46:26Speaker 02

  I think when I saw this movie in the summer, I was starting to come to terms with the idea that my mom was probably not gonna live for the rest of the year. And I don't, when you're going through something like that, especially as an only child, a lot of it is logistical and mechanical, like, who needs to be where, what are we gonna do about this, is she gonna get to this appointment on time, etc. I had not really thought about what it meant. And I did not expect to find that in a zombie movie by Danny Boyle that picked up a franchise that was pretty much forgotten after a decent sequel 20 years ago, but here we are. And, you know, this film is dazzling. I have no problems putting it on there, even if I didn't have this personal narratives kind of attached to it, but

• 1:47:09Speaker 02

  I think that the creative, um, energy that this guy brings to a story that did not necessitate this level of thoughtful execution, brazen, kind of leaping into the future with like, what can we do with these phones to film things? And also just like, imagining a country, which, you know, I've gotten to visit England several times over the last couple of years, and so this was, I feel like, you could just as well call this movie The Rise and Fall of the British Empire. Dealing with Brexit, dealing with its own, um, island kind of isolationism and its own mythologies and the stories that they're telling themselves about who English people are and their bravery and

• 1:47:52Speaker 02

  thinking so much about Alfie Williams' character, who gives an amazing performance as the central child, which going into the film, you're not, you don't know that this kid is gonna be the hero of the movie. The way he watches his parents and the way he watches who he thinks is the hero and his dad kind of become this lout and who he thinks is this, um, problem in his life and his mother who becomes like, you know, his responsibility. And then you get into the second and third act of this film, especially the third act with Ralph Fiennes, who gives my favorite performance of the year and the character I'll never forget. As this iodine, you know, uh...

• 1:48:29Speaker 02

  His, his, sorry. He gives this performance as this sort of doctor whose skin is tainted with iodine because he's sort of protecting himself from the infected. And they go through this death ceremony at the end of the film that I found profoundly moving. And so this movie just never left me. I've been thinking about it all year. I think there are movies that I think are more successful. A lot of people have problems with the very last scene of this movie. We'll find out in the Bone Temple.

• 1:48:59Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  If it works out.

• 1:49:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:01Speaker 02

  But.

• 1:49:02Sean Fennessey?

  We're going to the Bone Temple in like six weeks.

• 1:49:03Speaker 02

  I know, but this is, this was, this was my film of the year.

• 1:49:06Sean Fennessey?

  Chris is beautiful.

• 1:49:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:08Speaker 03

  Can I, can I add something to that? Cause this is the movie I was gonna try and sneak on. It's on my top 10.

• 1:49:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:13Speaker 03

  Cause I just wanted to talk about it. I'm happy to hear Chris talk about it. This movie rules, you know? And I've been very hard writing about Alex Garland in the past because there's just sometimes things I think the tone is off or he's too serious. There's a terrific script. I think the best thing Garland's ever written, because everything Chris said there is not projection, like it's in the movie.

• 1:49:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:35Speaker 03

  The, the allusions in the film to Shakespeare and to Kipling and this idea of the sun setting on the British Empire kind of finally, and whether it's time or not. And that image of the land bridge, that chase across the land bridge is one of the great scenes in the year.

• 1:49:48Sean Fennessey?

  So good.

• 1:49:49Speaker 03

  The causeway scene is incredible, just the athleticism of it, how it's filmed and the Bone Temple. It's a very moving film. And this is one of those, like, I just gotta give it up. I didn't think this team had it, had it in them to make something that good together again. It's just, I'm so happy Chris picked it as number one, cause it rocks. It's a really, really great movie.

• 1:50:11Sean Fennessey?

  Great job, CR.

• 1:50:12Speaker 02

  Thanks, man.

• 1:50:13Sean Fennessey?

  You did it.

• 1:50:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Good job.

• 1:50:15Sean Fennessey?

  I like this movie too. I gotta watch it again, I think.

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:17Sean Fennessey?

  I watched this unfortunately after getting off of a plane at 11 o'clock in the morning.

• 1:50:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:50:21Sean Fennessey?

  That wasn't the ideal.

• 1:50:22Amanda Dobbins?

  This is after Vegas?

• 1:50:23Sean Fennessey?

  Coming back for Atlanta.

• 1:50:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, Atlanta, even worse, yeah. I remember we came in and too.

• 1:50:27Sean Fennessey?

  I liked it a lot, but I was like, wow, this is audacious.

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  You were in a Bone Temple of your own.

• 1:50:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I was just very upset by how quickly, I mean, I was affected by it.

• 1:50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:34Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, but it was, Jodie Comer was just suddenly out. And I was like, well, I guess that's how it happens, but this is upsetting.

• 1:50:39Speaker 02

  In the Bone Temple.

• 1:50:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's how it goes.

• 1:50:43Sean Fennessey?

  I'm going to the Bone Temple for number one as well. It's one battle after another.

• 1:50:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:46Sean Fennessey?

  So all five of my movies are about. Two things. One is thwarted male ambition, which I think is the primary theme of movies for me this year.

• 1:50:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:57Sean Fennessey?

  About big guys who are like, I got this. And they do not got it. And I do think that there is something broader being communicated about the state of life, at least English speaking life as I understand it right now. About how people are feeling, about the means of control right now. Who's making decisions and the powerlessness that other people feel in the face of that. And especially a lot of guys who have like tricked themselves into thinking that they're in charge. And then we're discovering more and more who's really in charge. And I think one battle after another, that's a component of this. I think the other flip side of that is the kind of signal to noise confusion that comes with being a parent when you actually are in charge of someone and you have a responsibility and how overriding that responsibility becomes in your life

• 1:51:42Sean Fennessey?

  relative to the, those forces at large. Or thinking about what's going on in the world. You guys have been making fun of me for a couple of years because I'm like, I'm not reading the news anymore. And like, how do you not know that the whales like flew over here and now they're in Zanzibar?

• 1:51:53Amanda Dobbins?

  It's just human interest news. Yeah.

• 1:51:55Sean Fennessey?

  But I, I have increasingly checked out a lot, out of a lot of those things for a couple of reasons. I have definitely sunk myself deeper into movies in recent years and sunk myself deeper into my work. And I've also sunk myself deeper into my family life and being with my kid. And I'm already predisposed, as everyone who's listening to this point in the show, to loving Paul Thomas Anderson movies. When Licorice Pizza came out, that was my favorite movie of the year. Most people who love Paul Thomas Anderson are like, yeah, that's probably your favorite movie of the year. But it's, it's going to be my favorite movie of the year. So it's not really worth exploring in that specific way. But I, in the same way that you talk about the deep emotional and personal connection that you make to a movie like 28 years later, which I think is really, one of the primary reasons why this show, I hope, is a little bit different from other shows, which is that there's no pretense to objectivity.

• 1:52:40Sean Fennessey?

  We're all alive and responding to the art in the very specific, through the very specific lens of our life and who we are as people. And this movie feels almost fake to me because of all of the ways in which I felt connected to it. I do respond specifically to what Adam is saying about going back to the film and saying, am I convincing myself of things? Like, I do try to check myself on those things. I do try to say like, well, I have these, not just biases, but obsessions. And are the obsessions informing the way that I perform this show?

• 1:53:16Sean Fennessey?

  In this case, I have no doubts about that whatsoever. I think that everything that you said is right, that this is somebody at the top of their game, who spent decades figuring out how to construct this. And then one of the things that I have loved, that I think makes me ultimately not a crick, because I get very informed by these things, is getting to talk to Paul about making the movie. And all the ways, he was like, yeah, well, you know, in this case, we just kind of made this part up on the spot. I know. And I'm like, what? How did you, in this, in this level of production with this many important people and this much money on the line? So much riding on it. Yeah. And all this expectation and all the incoming doubt about its box office potential and would it stand up to previous work, that they were like, you know what? Good idea, Benicio, let's do it that way. Let's shut down production for a couple of days.

• 1:54:00Sean Fennessey?

  Let's rejigger this whole thing. And it worked. And then it flows and then it feels like it's, it feels like you're going down a waterfall while you're watching the movie. You're on the ride. And I find that just remarkable and breathtaking. And I think that the film also is not, I think it is what you're saying, which is that it is about the modern time, but I don't think it really is a message about the modern time. I think it is a, a suggestion of potential and maybe a snapshot of something, but it is not saying, like, it goes without saying that white supremacists, fascists are evil. Right. Like, that doesn't need to be explained. But what happens next, I feel like is what is most critical. And the movie ends on what happens next. We don't know.

• 1:54:44Sean Fennessey?

  We don't know where Chase Infiniti's character goes. We don't know what happens to her, but we want to know and we're excited for her and we're rooting for her. And in, as far as being a parent goes, I have to be hopeful. Sure. I can't be stuck Yeah. in the world is shit. I'm, I'm, I'm as prone to cynicism as anyone I know, but I'm forced to reject it, at least in the face of, one, work of art that I love, and two, the fact that We can't, we can't let go. We gotta, we gotta keep going. So, uh, this is was very obviously going to be my number one movie of the year. It is, it is quite strange. You know, Adam, Chris was asking, what's it like to root for the 1927 Yankees? At the top of this episode, when it comes to award season with one battle after another, you know, where it's like, everyone agrees this is the masterpiece.

• 1:55:29Sean Fennessey?

  It's the perfect narrative of a filmmaker who has been nominated 11 times, but has not been awarded for his work. It's this, the film bros are all, have all been rooting for PTA for 25 years and he's due and even still, I don't care. Like I, you know, and if it, it deserves it. Like it deserves the attention and it's, to me, it's nice when something like that happens. Does that mean I'm part of the, uh, the problem of the power structure? You know, is it my time now? Maybe so.

• 1:55:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Part of the appeal of this movie is that it is, it's to our generation and it's about how we are getting old. And we're at this, you know, later phase of life of figuring out what we did that mattered and all the many things that didn't and how to, how to, how to speak to younger people like Jack in the booth. So, you know, I guess if, like, if it does win, it would be fitting that it's the one that we're aligned with. It's reflecting us back to ourselves. I'm still protecting my heart, as I said, you know, like I'm not, I'm, I'm ready for tomfoolery.

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  It is strange to watch a movie and you get like Dirty Work and Mo Bamba in the same film. And you're just like, what the fuck is happening? Like, how did, how did I arrive at this place in my life where this is what I get? Yeah. Like,

• 1:56:39Speaker 03

  I think that the, one of the pieces that my students looked at is it was an assessment of Anderson's career from 99, like after Magnolia came out and it's someone being like, this filmmaker means entirely too much to people. And that was like from 1999, you know, that there's this idea of looking for heroes in film cultures. Like what are those heroic qualities? And it's like, get stuff done their way, makes the movie they want, you know, spends money well, but not poorly. And, you know, heart in right place and politics in right place. It is accessible, but you know, still has a certain kind of integrity. And there's a lot of aspects of this movie arguably that align for this looking like a kind of culmination in the filmmaker's career.

• 1:57:23Speaker 03

  But he's such an interesting director that my question at the end of the movie isn't just what happens to the characters. It's where does this kind of filmmaker go? Next, and a lot of that is going to be dictated by this award season. If I say this, unfortunately, because it shouldn't, right? But this movie's road to profitability goes straight through getting those awards. And unfortunately, that idea of profitability is going to be what determines the size and scope and budget and scale of the next thing that they, you know, the next that they get

• 1:57:54Speaker 02

  Also, I wouldn't underestimate the degree to which he wants to embrace Academy Award winning director Paul Thomas Anderson, or if he wants to go make Inherent Vice or Licorice Pizza again and kind of like step back a little bit.

• 1:58:05Sean Fennessey?

  To me, the magic is doing both. If you can do both. And he, he's not shy about being enamored with great Hollywood history. Like, a director like George Stevens really matters to Paul Thomas Anderson. George Stevens is not a cool film bro pick. He's made a lot of great films that are admired, but he doesn't have that same canonical obsessive quality that, like a Howard Hawks does, for example. And I think he would like a career like that, where you're at the absolute top of the industry and working on your own terms, working with your own ideas and themes. So I, I don't know, I don't think he's going to have a hard time getting, raising money, but I would be surprised if he wanted to make another $150 million movie. He hasn't shown a lot of interest in stories like that.

• 1:58:48Sean Fennessey?

  It would be fascinating if he was like, I'm making Weapons 2. You know, like, I don't think that's what he's going to do with his time, but it is an interesting question to see where he goes from here, because this does feel like scaling the mountaintop in a way that we have seen before from great filmmakers.

• 1:59:02Speaker 02

  Paramount Plus series.

• 1:59:03Sean Fennessey?

  You think we should get him in the Taylor Sheridan universe?

• 1:59:07Speaker 02

  I'm here to tell you that I checked out the news today and it's, it's all going to be okay.

• 1:59:10Sean Fennessey?

  Everything's good?

• 1:59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're good.

• 1:59:11Sean Fennessey?

  Wow.

• 1:59:12Speaker 02

  We fixed it.

• 1:59:12Sean Fennessey?

  All the bad guys died simultaneously?

• 1:59:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:59:15Sean Fennessey?

  That's amazing.

• 1:59:15Speaker 02

  They turned to the camera and said, ah, my bad.

• 1:59:18Sean Fennessey?

  I do want to do some honorable mentions. Jack, before we do that, what, what's your favorite movie of the year?

• 1:59:23Speaker 05

  It's One Battle.

• 1:59:24Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:59:24Speaker 05

  A lot of, I think it would be One Battle, Sinners, Train Dreams, It Was Just An Accident, and Eddington.

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  There you go, Jack.

• 1:59:31Speaker 05

  With Testament of Ann Lee, very close.

• 1:59:33Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I was gonna mention that in my honorable mentions as well. Another movie I think I probably needed to see again, some kookiness.

• 1:59:38Speaker 02

  I will also say, I haven't gotten a chance to see a lot of the very, either incredibly limited or not yet released films, so.

• 1:59:46Sean Fennessey?

  I'll knock off some honorable mentions to start, because I did have a bit of a challenge with my top 10, as I mentioned. So, Secret Agent, we already talked about, and Weapons, we already talked about. Blue Moon is pretty high on my list. I'm really, really fond of that film. I love Ethan Hawke's performance in that movie. We got two Linklater movies this year, so that was very special. You know, I still like Sentimental Value, and I'm not afraid to say it. I know the tide is turning amongst the film literati on that film. I'm not backing down, goddammit. I think that movie is really good, and really interestingly designed, and very sincere, and goddammit. I love stories! I love stories. And I also think Kelly Reichardt's The Mastermind is really, really special, and thought about putting that on, and I would like to revisit that movie at

• 2:00:28Sean Fennessey?

  some point, too. Amanda, what, can we get some honorable mentions for you?

• 2:00:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I made a whole list, but it's on my phone, which is in my bag over there.

• 2:00:35Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:00:35Amanda Dobbins?

  So.

• 2:00:36Sean Fennessey?

  Well, let's throw it to Adam, so Amanda can get up.

• 2:00:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, am I allowed to go get it?

• 2:00:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, go get it. Adam, you got any honorable mentions?

• 2:00:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, Mastermind's very good. Blue Moon is very good. I like The Testament of Ann Lee, which sort of plays like an episode of Drunk History sometimes, which is a compliment.

• 2:00:53Sean Fennessey?

  It does.

• 2:00:53Speaker 03

  You know, a pretty, a kind of interesting companion piece. Not B-side, but like double A-side to The Brutalist, because it is really similar. It's not the fake perception that it's similar, because it's the two same filmmakers. Really interesting approach to like assimilation in America, and building something in a country from the ground up. I like Testament of Ann Lee, and I definitely want to give a shout out, because it's gonna be on my 10 best list, to Ratoujou Does Dracula.

• 2:01:19Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm. I just watched it.

• 2:01:21Speaker 03

  Easily the most productively annoying movie I saw this year.

• 2:01:24Sean Fennessey?

  It's so obnoxious.

• 2:01:25Speaker 03

  It's so obnoxious. It's so good. As someone pointed out, I laughed when they pointed this out, that the funniest thing about it is that it's just called Dracula. Like you watch this three hour film, which goes out of its way to not really be a Dracula movie, or to throw so many obstacles in the idea of like, what does it mean to adapt Dracula? And he just calls it that. He's very funny. And that was one of those screenings where I thought they should have handed out, I saw it at TIFF, not only at TIFF, but it was during game five of the World Series.

• 2:01:55Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, God.

• 2:01:56Speaker 03

  Starting at nine PM, when the Jays playing in the World Series, so totally, we couldn't watch the game at all. They should have given out like medals for getting through it.

• 2:02:03Sean Fennessey?

  It's a two hour, 45 minute episodic sketch oriented series of Dracula adaptations that features a tremendous amount of AI.

• 2:02:13Speaker 03

  At least 15, at least 15 minutes of pornographic.

• 2:02:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 2:02:18Speaker 03

  AI.

• 2:02:18Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:02:19Speaker 03

  You know?

• 2:02:19Sean Fennessey?

  You know, it is itself a comment on it. It is not celebrating or using the AI to make a better film. It's, you know, it's an absurdist satire of the use of AI in making IP in some ways, you know, adapting the great works for film. But, uh, man, it's such an annoying movie. It's so long. It's a really elaborate prank.

• 2:02:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's an elaborate prank and sort of a troll, but he has, I mean, again, it would make a, I put it on the 10 best list as a double bill with sinners as vampire movies, but it could just as easily go on a double bill with something like Paddington.

• 2:02:54Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:54Speaker 03

  The sort of, you know, AI is stinker, or as the filmmaker within the film talks about, he really should have called it Frankenstein because it's this patchwork, you know, amalgamation of all these other kind of monster movie tropes. I certainly like it as a Frankenstein movie better than Frankenstein, but I like Dracula a lot. I think it's terrific.

• 2:03:12Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. You got your list?

• 2:03:14Amanda Dobbins?

  I do. I just made a long list chronological, chronologically, and many of your, you know, top fives are on there, so I won't read those. Black Bag, Steven Soderbergh.

• 2:03:24Sean Fennessey?

  It'll pop up on yours.

• 2:03:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Well, but it's on, here it is on my long list. Paddington and Peru, which I believe was released here in 2025 in the United States. Pavements, Alex Ross Perry's movie.

• 2:03:35Sean Fennessey?

  Great show.

• 2:03:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Phoenician Scheme, Wes Anderson. Sorry, Baby, Ed Victor's film. Let's see, scrolling, Blue Moon, you said, Mastermind, Begonia. I, I like Begonia.

• 2:03:45Sean Fennessey?

  I do too.

• 2:03:46Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, I, it's.

• 2:03:46Sean Fennessey?

  Adam does not.

• 2:03:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Adam does not, but I liked it. And it does make like a double header, like a double feature with a lot of the other films on this list. Testament of Man Lee be discussed. Uh, no other choice. Um, and then, you know, I wrote down three rom coms where I would say it's, uh, genre experiments. Uh, I'm glad they tried.

• 2:04:12Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 2:04:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And it's materialists, Splitsville. And I'm even gonna say, even though I have a lot of notes, eternity, I'm glad we're trying.

• 2:04:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's keep trying.

• 2:04:22Sean Fennessey?

  There's a fourth film that I would add to that list if I was you, and I don't know if anyone here has seen it, but I really like, and I considered for my five, and it's even more annoying than, um, putting Marty Supreme and No Other Choice on there. But it's a movie called Pillion, which I saw.

• 2:04:35Amanda Dobbins?

  The scars, right?

• 2:04:36Sean Fennessey?

  This new Alexander Skarsgård movie, uh, first time filmmaker, Harry Lighton. It's a, essentially a BDSM, uh, gay rom com about two men who sort of fall in love under servitude. And is like, probably the hardest I laughed at a movie this year. That and Eddington were the two, I thought the two funniest movies of the year. Alexander Skarsgård gives an amazing performance. A couple of people have mentioned this, um, when we've done the, what's the last great thing you've seen?

• 2:05:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:05:04Sean Fennessey?

  The movie's coming out for like, a week in five theaters in 2025, and then opening later in 2026. That's probably when people get a chance to see it.

• 2:05:12Speaker 02

  Is it gonna be up for awards?

• 2:05:13Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's why it qualifies, but it's, I mean, it's probably not gonna really.

• 2:05:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I think it was like, on the indie spirit list.

• 2:05:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, it is nominated for indie spirits. You're right. I hope people check it out. It's really, really funny and really, really beautiful and sweet. Um, and I like that movie a lot. A couple of other quick ones. Uh, Two Docs, One Predators, which I mentioned, I saw out of Sundance, which is about how to catch a predator and the sort of sociological, anthropological meaning of us living in a society in which we want to try to entrap pedophiles live on TV and then air the consequences of their actions. Just a fascinating movie by David Oset. And, uh, the other one is Cover Up, which is Laura Poitras's portrait of, uh, Seymour Hersh and his work as an investigative journalist.

• 2:05:54Speaker 02

  That's going to Netflix soon, right?

• 2:05:55Sean Fennessey?

  That's going to Netflix, I think, end of this month.

• 2:05:57Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:05:59Sean Fennessey?

  Which is just, you know.

• 2:06:00Speaker 02

  Can't wait to see that.

• 2:06:01Sean Fennessey?

  In tradition with her work, which is always staggering, but also something that like, I mean, we've probably talked about Cy Hersh stories, like, all three of us, like, multiple times in their 20 years of friendship.

• 2:06:10Speaker 02

  That'd be good if that only news you read was Cy Hersh article.

• 2:06:14Sean Fennessey?

  Well, his Substack is aflame these days, so. Uh, CR, you want to chat anything out?

• 2:06:19Speaker 02

  Uh, F1, which we briefly discussed, but was kind of like the movie-going experience of the year and definitely broke those wall where I was like, I think I'm actually watching real sports while this is happening. Um, Alex Garland's Warfare. I would also throw out Splitsville, which I think was the hardest I laughed this year in a movie, not least of which because the idea that the two leads could land, Adrian Arjona and Dakota Johnson. But once you get past that or go along with that, it is kind of part of the joke. And Havoc.

• 2:06:53Sean Fennessey?

  Havoc?

• 2:06:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Tom Hardy movie Havoc.

• 2:06:56Sean Fennessey?

  Right on. I do, I've just remembered one other movie you want to chat about.

• 2:06:59Amanda Dobbins?

  I remembered one more too.

• 2:07:00Sean Fennessey?

  You want to go first?

• 2:07:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, I just.

• 2:07:01Speaker 02

  Is it also Havoc?

• 2:07:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:04Amanda Dobbins?

  No, when you were talking about docs, Megadoc.

• 2:07:06Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, Megadoc, yes.

• 2:07:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is awesome.

• 2:07:08Sean Fennessey?

  Just announced going to Criterion Channel December 16th. So people can check that out. That movie was really good. Now, Final Destination: Bloodlines.

• 2:07:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:14Sean Fennessey?

  Is, was, is so fucking fun. And again, is what it's all about.

• 2:07:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:19Sean Fennessey?

  Getting in the movie theater, watching people get mercilessly annihilated by all types of household products and medical equipment. That's what I want.

• 2:07:29Speaker 03

  Also picked by John Waters. Do you see John Waters?

• 2:07:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that was amazing.

• 2:07:33Speaker 03

  Bloodlines on his.

• 2:07:34Sean Fennessey?

  Eddington and Final Destination: Bloodlines, that's a, that's, I mean, always.

• 2:07:37Speaker 03

  That was his one too.

• 2:07:37Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, he always has great picks.

• 2:07:39Speaker 03

  I had one other honorable mention, you'll forgive me, the most, actually, the thing I enjoyed watching most this year was the Ben Affleck Criterion Closet Video.

• 2:07:46Amanda Dobbins?

  You and me both, Adam Nayman.

• 2:07:48Speaker 03

  Said, said, said, said, said without irony, my hot take is, my hot take is, he should run for president.

• 2:07:55Amanda Dobbins?

  A thousand percent.

• 2:07:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, 100%.

• 2:07:58Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, I don't think that would turn out.

• 2:08:01Amanda Dobbins?

  I know, but like, again, wouldn't you risk it all? Just, I would.

• 2:08:06Sean Fennessey?

  Wouldn't you risk it all?

• 2:08:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I bet you would have a good cap.

• 2:08:09Speaker 03

  Amanda.

• 2:08:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 2:08:10Speaker 03

  Amanda, I'm not, I'm not wrong about this, right? That's the best closet video ever, or it's right up there.

• 2:08:15Amanda Dobbins?

  It's, it is really great, and I watched all of it wrapped.

• 2:08:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, me too.

• 2:08:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Was this year the J-Lo documentary where he?

• 2:08:23Sean Fennessey?

  I think that was last year.

• 2:08:23Amanda Dobbins?

  That was last year where he talks about cameras for a while. That's also, if you haven't checked that out.

• 2:08:28Speaker 03

  Just him holding on to rules of the game and the content of being Ben Affleck.

• 2:08:31Sean Fennessey?

  Rules of the game, Miller's Crossing, the Elephant Man. The Elephant Man.

• 2:08:34Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm not saying it. I'm not saying it with a shred of funny.

• 2:08:37Sean Fennessey?

  No, no.

• 2:08:37Speaker 03

  He's there talking about, he's there talking about rules of the game. And he's like, Charno Noir, you know, great humanist. He loves his characters. It has the great line in films. Everyone has his reasons. I'm like, testify, Ben Affleck. I bet, I bet everyone has their reasons. Yeah, it was great.

• 2:08:52Sean Fennessey?

  Well, that just about does it. We've done it again. We've celebrated Ben Affleck here on the show as we so often do. We have talked about films that we like a great deal. And we're going to get back to the real work, actually, on Monday. On Monday, we're going to talk about the Golden Globe nominations. That's where the real work starts. Are you getting excited about that? Yeah. What's our call time? 4:00 AM. Okay, great. Hair and makeup at 4:00 AM. No, it'd probably be about 8:00 AM. Okay. Our time. You can make that work? Yeah. Okay. Jack Sanders is gonna have to make it work. He's the producer of this episode. Thanks to him. Thanks so much to Adam Nayman, who is not the meme pod guy. He's the beloved, beautiful, perfect pod guy.

• 2:09:29Speaker 03

  No, and I'm, and I'm so happy to see you guys, but especially Chris Ryan. My first, my first Ringer contact. Always happy to see Chris.

• 2:09:35Speaker 02

  I don't think we've podded together since last best of. So this is always great.

• 2:09:39Sean Fennessey?

  Whose fault is that?

• 2:09:39Speaker 02

  Probably mine.

• 2:09:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, you host like nine pods.

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  Well, Adam's never like, I gotta, gotta break down Severance with you, brother.

• 2:09:44Sean Fennessey?

  What was your favorite TV show of the year? Do you watch any TV?

• 2:09:47Speaker 03

  Oh, Chair Company.

• 2:09:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. Oh, sure. I mean, that's a layup. It's naming.

• 2:09:50Speaker 03

  Which I'm not even, which I'm not even finished.

• 2:09:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, me neither.

• 2:09:53Speaker 03

  I think is the best, best, best, best TV I've watched this year.

• 2:09:57Sean Fennessey?

  Any closing thoughts, CR?

• 2:09:58Speaker 02

  No, it's always just a great, great to go through a year of movies with you guys.

• 2:10:02Sean Fennessey?

  Can you just do maybe like a little, like an impression of a famous actor or something? Just to set this off?

• 2:10:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:10:08Sean Fennessey?

  We'll see you next time.

• 2:10:09Speaker 02

  I gotta pee. I gotta go.