Jilly Cooper: On Failure, Love and Literature

Today, we remember and celebrate the extraordinary life of Jilly Cooper, who has sadly passed away at the age of 88. A literary icon, Jilly captured hearts and imaginations with her wit, warmth, and unmistakable voice. Her novels, especially beloved titles like Riders and Rivals, sold over 11 million copies in the UK alone and most recently inspired the hit Disney+ adaptation that introduced her work to a whole new generation. I had the immense privilege of speaking with Jilly just last October. She was everything I’d hoped she would be - funny, sharp, generous and inspiring. Today, in tribute to her legacy and the joy she brought to so many, I’m honoured to share the conversation with you again. ___________________________________________________________________ Dame Jilly Cooper. What a legend. For the uninitiated (where have you been?) she’s a journalist and author most famous for her bestselling Rutshire Chronicle series which includes Riders, Polo and Rivals - the latter of which has now made into a hugely popular TV series starring David Tennant, Danny Dyer and Katherine Parkinson. In the past, Dame Jilly’s books have been unfairly dismissed as mere ‘bonkbusters’, charting the sex lives of the upper classes. But, as I discover, there’s much more to both her writing - and to her. We talk about her failures with technology, why she wishes she could throw more things away, as well as the terrifying time she lost an entire manuscript on the number 28 bus and had to rewrite it. Plus her experiences of interviewing Margaret Thatcher, her friendship with the Queen, her obsession with beautiful people and ‘macho men’ - and why she’d wholeheartedly recommend adoption to others. Thank you Dame Jilly. A total sport (but we knew that). ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Remembering Dame Gili Cooper 03:43 Personal Reflections and Literary Success 07:37 Exploring Themes of Masculinity and Beauty 10:15 Family, Loss, and Resilience 11:28 Failures and Fertility Challenges 21:18 Dieting and Body Image 25:12 Interviewing Margaret Thatcher 26:46 Technical Challenges and Writing Process 30:27 Friendship and Social Media 🔗 LINKS: Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:10Elizabeth Day?

  I, like many of you, I'm sure, was so sad to hear of the death of Dame Gillie Cooper at the age of 88. I was so lucky to get to interview her for How to Fail in October 2024. And I say I was lucky for myriad reasons. She was a hilarious guest, someone who had such a zest and twinkle for life. But she's also someone that I hugely admire as a writer, someone who is a shrewd observer of class in her books, someone who historically spoke openly about her inability to conceive biologically, and who really made women feel seen both on

• 0:50Elizabeth Day?

  the page and in life. I'm so, so glad that her work got the resurgence that it deserved with the TV adaptation of Rivals. And we also delve into that in this conversation. I hope that you enjoy it, and I hope that you listen to it and remember the remarkable woman and writer that was Dame Gillie Cooper. One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step. And starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which

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• 2:08Elizabeth Day?

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• 2:49Elizabeth Day?

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• 3:14Elizabeth Day?

  My guest today was so naughty at school, teachers dubbed her "the unholy terror". Over time, this naughtiness has served Dame Jilly Cooper rather well. When, as a newly-married young woman, she found herself sitting next to the editor of the Sunday Times magazine at dinner, she regaled him with stories of her husband, and he promptly commissioned her to write for the paper. She became one of the Sunday Times' most popular journalists, writing a column for over 13 years and interviewing everyone from Margaret Thatcher to George Best. But it was as an author that she would become famous. She published her first book,

• 3:56Elizabeth Day?

  How to Stay Married, in 1969, and since then has written or contributed to another 44 works of fiction and non-fiction. She is probably most well-known for the Rutcher Chronicle series, which includes the bestsellers Riders, Rivals, and Polo.

• 4:14Elizabeth Day?

  Her books were wrongly dismissed frequently as mere bonkbusters. In truth, they are full of memorable characterization, taboo-busting action, and humorous insights into everything from the British class system to whether a woman should shave her legs. I gobbled up a whole lot as a teenager and have never forgotten how fearlessly thrilling Dame Ginny's writing felt. Her books have sold over 11 million copies in Britain alone. Now, an eight-part Disney Plus adaptation of Rivals starring David Tennant, Adrian Turner, Emily Atack, and Danny Dyer has just hit our screens.

• 4:55Elizabeth Day?

  Despite her success, Dame Ginny has never been one to take herself too seriously. "I'm sort of frivolous," she has said. "I don't write literature, but I hope my books have given people joy. I hope they make people happy." Dame Ginny Cooper, welcome to How to Fail.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Oh, lovely. I want to cry now. Nobody's been so nice about me.

• 5:21Elizabeth Day?

  Well, you've made me very happy through your books, and I'm extremely happy that you're sitting here opposite me today. Thank you so much.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  That's lovely.

• 5:29Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you for blazing a trail for the other female journalists, starting out on newspapers who've then gone on to write books. You really were.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Catherine Whitehall, there were some great ones.

• 5:38Elizabeth Day?

  I mean, there were great ones, but you did a fantastic job, so thank you. And I wanted to end on that quote because I think I'd like to take exception to the idea that you don't write literature, given that Ryder's made the BBC list of 100 most important English-language novels in love, sex, and...

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Did it? I couldn't find it. You're sure it's there?

• 5:59Elizabeth Day?

  Well, it comes up again and again in press cuttings, so I think it must be.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  That's a cheer off. I'm very pleased.

• 6:05Elizabeth Day?

  Do you actually think you don't write literature, or have you been made to feel that you don't?

• 6:10Speaker 01

  I don't know what literature is. I remember my best friend called Joanna Trollope. He was always described as a literary author and I was described as a popular author. And I used to feel a bit sad. I don't know when things become literature. Is it time? I mean, if something is read a hundred years' time, then I don't know what the definition is.

• 6:29Elizabeth Day?

  No, I've never asked myself that question.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 6:32Elizabeth Day?

  Maybe, as you say, it becomes literature if it stands the test of time. Your books are famous for their sexual content, but I'm fascinated by your insights into class. When was the first time you can remember being interested in the British class system?

• 6:50Speaker 01

  We were so broke, we were going to have to sell our house in Fulham. And then I wrote this book, Class, and went to Tratton's Best Sellist and was there for 20 weeks and saved our house. I think class is interesting because people do behave in a peculiar way. I mean, in my book, I had Harry Stoklad, who was the aristocrat. And then there was the nouveau riches, the nouveau riche, people like that. And you have fun with class, I think.

• 7:14Elizabeth Day?

  And do you think it's still as prevalent as it was when you wrote that book?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Probably not much, but I still think people sort of look up and down at people. I mean, it's Rival's book, lots of the couples look down on each other. I think it is, it goes on, but more secretly, I don't think people talk about it quite so.

• 7:29Elizabeth Day?

  Are you excited about the TV adaptation of Rival?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yes, very. I can say it's absolutely wonderful. Gorgeous actors. Aiden Turner, he's from Poldark, that's a heaven.

• 7:38Elizabeth Day?

  And he's not even playing Rupert Campbell Black?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, a lovely man called Alex Hassel, who's a lot like Shakespeare. He's playing Rupert Campbell Black. And then David Tennant in it, who's wonderful too. He's playing the baddie, Lord Baddingham. So, I mean, it's a fantastic cast.

• 7:54Elizabeth Day?

  Rupert Campbell Black stalks the corridors of my teenage imagination.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  I hope he did, I hope he did.

• 8:00Elizabeth Day?

  He really did, Gillian. I, the first one of your books that I read was Polo and he just blew me away. And he is renowned in your books for being the most handsome man in England. Who was he based on?

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Three men really, Andrew Parker Bowles is definitely, because he was a great friend for a long time and Camilla, his darling wife. So he's very like Rupert, because he's beautiful and blonde and stunning. And then there was a man called Mickey Suffolk, who was absolutely wonderful, very, very funny. And then there was one called Rupert Lyser Green, who was married to Catherine de Betchman. And there were all these gorgeous men I met, so there was a amalgam of all of them, really.

• 8:37Elizabeth Day?

  So Andrew Parker Bowles, who you mention, is now the Queen's ex-husband.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yes, that's right.

• 8:42Elizabeth Day?

  And you describe yourself as middle class. Isn't that interesting that you're now friends with the Queen?

• 8:47Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so. I mean, that's all the Queen's got lots of friends, got lots of dogs.

• 8:52Elizabeth Day?

  And Rishi Sunak, our former Prime Minister, is a big fan of yours as well.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Met him yesterday, went to his, went to his house, Downing Street. And he's gone now, poor darling, but, but he was so nice, we had half an hour together. And he's very attractive and we had, we had a really, really nice chat. And he said the sweetest thing at the end, sorry, that was wrong, so I got a wrong story. No, that was Prince Charles and I got my damehood.

• 9:14Elizabeth Day?

  It's an understandable mistake. Okay. So you confuse the now King with our former Prime Minister. But, but what did then Prince Charles say to you?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  No, no, he was so sweet and I said, he's got to stay well because the country loves him so much. And he said, by the way, we've got two rather good horses running at Ascot this week.

• 9:31Elizabeth Day?

  Did you put money on them?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Yes, they didn't really. But I think they did the next week.

• 9:36Elizabeth Day?

  I wondered when I asked you the Rupert Campbell Black question, whether you were going to mention your father and your brother. Having recently been lucky enough to get a preview of the BBC documentary that's, that's coming up about you. Both your father and brother were incredibly handsome, attractive men.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  I'm obsessed with beauty.

• 9:53Elizabeth Day?

  Why?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  I just love it. I love beautiful people. I'm unnaturally obsessed with beauty, I think.

• 9:57Elizabeth Day?

  Tell me more about your father. So he was a brigadier.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  He was a brigadier and he was absolutely, he was wonderful, lovely, lovely man. And he got first Cambridge and he played rugger for the army. He was very glam.

• 10:08Elizabeth Day?

  And were these early male figures, did they embody that kind of masculine macho energy that comes across in your books?

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Like macho men, I'm afraid. Leo, my husband was macho.

• 10:20Elizabeth Day?

  How would you describe macho?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  My father went off to work and my mother looked at home after hours. And I don't think this is necessary at all, because I think it's lovely when men go off to work. But I do think men being strong and happy about their masculinity and women being happy about being feminine is lovely.

• 10:37Elizabeth Day?

  So what do you think of the age that we're living through now, where some people might think that that view is outdated?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  I had a long talk with my granddaughter, she's at a boarding school at the moment, and she says the boys are very bossy. From that view, it seems boys still are very macho.

• 10:50Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think you're a strong woman?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  No, weak.

• 10:54Elizabeth Day?

  You don't strike me as a weak person. A weak person couldn't have written the books that you've written, or had the success that you've had, or saved the house that you were living in twice.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  We saved Putney at Gloucester, we moved to Gloucestershire. Then we asked about managers, we said, we took him, introduced him to lots of royalty. He sat on the terrace on Sunday night, "Oh, lovely old properties, lovely old properties. What a tragedy you're going to have to sell it." I said, "What do you mean, what do you mean?" "You're going to have to sell it, I think your dirty little book writers will get you out of it." And it did. Sold and sold and sold and sold, so V signed to bank managers.

• 11:29Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly, and you moved bank afterwards, didn't you?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:32Elizabeth Day?

  It sounds to me like you have withstood a lot of sexism over the years, not just from that bank manager, but also from people who have dismissed your books as bonkbusters.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Rivals is interesting, because rivals, actually, there's a lot of screwing in it, obviously, because people are sort of carrying on as they do. There's an awful lot of other things, I mean, in the old days, there was 15 different television stations around the country. Every five years, somebody would try and take it away from the incumbents. And that meant the regional television was really, really strong and powerful and built up the regions, which I think is very important. Now it's all London based.

• 12:05Elizabeth Day?

  So it's also, your books are about power?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Power and laughter a bit, and I like nature.

• 12:13Elizabeth Day?

  I'd love to talk to you about your mother a little bit. Because I understand that it was her who started reading to you at a very young age. You started reading at the age of four.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's wonderful, very, very beautiful.

• 12:25Elizabeth Day?

  I read somewhere that she struggled with depression.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  She did. She hated moving home. Every time she moved house, she had a nervous breakdown. With Daddy in the army, that was a bit difficult.

• 12:33Elizabeth Day?

  Very difficult.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  But she was absolutely divine.

• 12:35Elizabeth Day?

  How old were you when you became aware that things were difficult?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  We moved from South Yorkshire to London. I remember coming home and seeing Daddy looking very miserable. And I said, darling, what's the matter? What's the matter? And he said, Mama, you know, she's had to go into a home. She tried to commit suicide.

• 12:51Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  By the end, she suddenly got really strong. When he, he got vagr at the end, she was really strong. But she died at ninety-one.

• 12:59Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think that's partly why you have this desire to make people happy?

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I like making people happy. I mean, I picture behind their backs, but I do like making them laugh.

• 13:12Elizabeth Day?

  And is that the secret to writing a great sex scene is to leave the humour in?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  It was actually about, I said that the good marriage was kept alive by creaking bed springs, more from laughter than from sex.

• 13:27Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get on to your failures. Your first one is your total failure to throw anything away. Are you, are you a hoarder?

• 13:37Speaker 01

  I always make about fifteen drafts of everything I write. And I keep them in case there's an absolutely brilliant paragraph or draft thirteen that I might want to go back to. And so as a result, when we moved to the country, I filled up the gazebo on the garden with all my crud, my fifteen drafts. Then I moved up to the top of the house. Then Leo died. I moved into his study. Leo's lovely office on the ground floor is filled up with notebooks, files, graphs, photographs of people. I'm just terrible and tidy.

• 14:03Elizabeth Day?

  Leo is your beloved late husband?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 14:06Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Do you miss Leo?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  I do. The Parkinson's is so vile. You're horrified by your actions, they end and say, please, God, take him, because it's so cruel. Then you feel absolutely bored.

• 14:17Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so sorry you went through that. How did he feel about being Mr. Jilly Cooper? Or how did he feel about your success?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. Elizabeth Jane Hargreaves was married to him.

• 14:28Elizabeth Day?

  Kingsley Amis.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  That's right. And she came up to Leo at the Hatchet House all the way up to her, and said, Leo, how do you enjoy me, Mr. Jilly Cooper from now on? He wasn't pleased. I think it was difficult for him. I think it is difficult for anybody. I think it's difficult. You go to any party and the people rush up to somebody you're with and then, because I was with Stanley Tushy at Wimbledon the other day, and, and, and lovely Stanley, and, and everybody was saying, get out of the way, get out of the way, I want, I want to talk to Stanley.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  So I think it is difficult. It must be difficult.

• 15:00Elizabeth Day?

  Let's go back to why you don't throw things away. So is there something about the past beyond the idea of the, the fact that you might have written the most exquisite sentence in draft thirteen? Is there also something about cherishing the past?

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Also, everybody is so kind. They're always in my presence. I'm not good at being tidy. I, I like to be, but I never have been.

• 15:20Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever been sent pants?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  No, no, have you?

• 15:23Elizabeth Day?

  No, I'm actually kind of offended now. And I got divorced in my mid thirties and then I started dating again. Don't worry, I'm married to a lovely, lovely man now. And no one has ever sent me a dick pic.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  A dick pic?

• 15:37Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Is that for their cocks?

• 15:40Elizabeth Day?

  Literally a picture of their penis, which apparently is, is, is, is quite common in current.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Is it current? Current, love, isn't it?

• 15:47Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Extraordinary thing, extraordinary thing to do. Don't you think?

• 15:51Elizabeth Day?

  I completely.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Up or down?

• 15:53Elizabeth Day?

  I've never been someone, so I don't know. I think maybe half-tumescent, but not fully erect.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Tumescent's a good word, too, isn't it? It's one of those words that's having a crossword. Remember they say which is tumescent?

• 16:06Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, it's also one of those words that would be terrible in a sex scene.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yes, it would. It would.

• 16:18Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted. But just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy, that's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become

• 17:00Elizabeth Day?

  manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 17:20Elizabeth Day?

  So you can't throw anything away?

• 17:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 17:22Elizabeth Day?

  And has it ever happened that you have gone back to draft 13?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  No, can you imagine? I lost rivals on a bus.

• 17:29Elizabeth Day?

  This is one of the most terrifying stories I've ever heard about any writer. Please tell it to us.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  I was halfway through writing, I'd written about 400,000 words. And I took it out to lunch to sort of fiddle around with the full stops and put a photo ad which was in and tarted up. I went to lunch in Soho. Obviously got a bit pissed. Then I went to Selfridges and bought some centres, one dozen on the way. And I got on the 28 bus to go home and I was chatting to everyone. And when I got back to Pallington, it had gone. So I had this fantasy about some bus conductor writing de novel of de century.

• 18:01Elizabeth Day?

  So you had to wait then for a few years, didn't you, before you could...

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. This was, this was in 79.

• 18:06Elizabeth Day?

  You rewrote the whole thing?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  I had to, yeah. I think it was better because it was a bit more developed because it was finished in 84 or something like that. So it was a long time to wait. It was awful.

• 18:17Elizabeth Day?

  There's another story around public transport that comes up when one researcher's danger to Cooper. And it must have been a very shocking and scary one.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Pallington train crash.

• 18:27Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  We went travelling along just getting into Pallington. The train just crashed and all around us were people who were dead, roaming. And I was pulled out. And I was all right, really. But I was going to a conference about the Holocaust. It was one of my books. Of course, I got to this conference, the Holocaust. But everybody happened. But it was far, far, far, far worse than me in a little crash at Pallington. And then I, so I, so I sort of cheered up and it was very nice to me. And then I got back to my house in full at the time. And my children said mum will miss her dogs. So they'd thrown the dogs into a car and driven them up to London to meet me. Was that sweet?

• 19:01Elizabeth Day?

  That's so sweet.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  So sweet, there they were.

• 19:04Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. It strikes me, talking to you, that you have been through some difficult things. But you're not self indulgent. You dust yourself off and carry on. Would that be fair?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  I mean, for a journalist, as you know, or a writer, you've got to meet a deadline, haven't you? So you've got to do something about it.

• 19:22Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think of your life as meeting a deadline? Are you, are you sort of ever aware that it's finite?

• 19:27Speaker 01

  No, but I always think, I always think I might need some more money. I'm always worried about money.

• 19:31Elizabeth Day?

  Still? And how do you feel about death?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  There's two things. I love the thing that when you, when you die, all your favourite dogs in your past come running towards you across the sun at dawn. Your favourite dogs leading the pack. Isn't that lovely? And I'd love to see Leo again. I'd love to see my parents again. But I just think all them all up now. I'm worried about the clouds holding them up.

• 19:50Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, chilly.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 19:52Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. I should say, actually, before we move on to your second failure, that you are one of the very generous guests who've given me several failures, not just three. Because you said that you failed so many times, you can't just limit it to three.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 20:05Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think, this is something that a lot of female guests say to me. And I think it's possibly because women of a certain generation, myself included, are brought up not to believe in themselves fully. And so they often think that they fail. Whereas someone more self confident might think, well, you know, there's an obstacle that I can navigate, but eventually I'm guaranteed success. Do you think you've always felt insecure?

• 20:38Speaker 01

  I wasn't very clever at school, but I failed Oxford because I went for an interview at St. Hill's. They were all tweed suits and sort of bossy boots running around saying, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? I was there and I suddenly thought, I don't want to go to Oxford. I don't want to go to Tildes and be with these sort of bossy women in tweed suits. And so I lied. I said, I'm terribly sorry. I've just heard my mother's ill and I've got to go back to Yorkshire. And I went back to Yorkshire. Of course, I didn't get in.

• 21:03Elizabeth Day?

  Have you ever regretted that?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  I mean, it would have been lovely to get a degree. I mean, I would have been very proud. I hate the fact I didn't go to Oxford, but but but I mean, wasn't that an awful thing to do?

• 21:13Elizabeth Day?

  No.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  They just weren't my kind of people as women.

• 21:16Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, and how how interesting that you tell me that story in response to that question, because actually that shows to me that you really knew yourself. You sort of knew where you were happy.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:28Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so your second failure, which we know isn't really a failure, but it's such a moving thing to talk about. It's about not being able to give birth to your children. But it had this miraculous outcome because you adopted your children. Would you mind telling us, Jilly, how you discovered that you wouldn't be able biologically to conceive?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  I was married and we sort of, I suppose, made love a lot, a great deal. I was twenty four, then Leo was twenty seven, and he already had a daughter, and that we wanted to have children. And nothing happened, of course, nothing happened, and nothing happened, and nothing happened. Went from gynecologist to gynecologist. And I had an ectopic pregnancy. And the doctor just said afterwards, I'm sorry, it's going to come out, and he said, I I think you should think about adopting because I don't think you're likely to conceive. I mean, I wasn't that maternal. I'm not berserk about babies. So it was a real terrible senior heartbreak for me, because I desperately wanted children. And of course, that that was then we first adopted Felix. And it was difficult because Leo was divorced. And so they were a bit sort of iffy about it.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  And then, of course, it's a lovely adoption society. First they find us Felix, then they find Emily, and I mean, miraculous, I could never love any much than I love them. So I was incredibly lucky.

• 22:46Elizabeth Day?

  I wonder if I could wind back a little bit and ask you whether you felt like a failure. You said that you weren't particularly maternal, but as someone, I've also been through fertility challenges and. Even though I know on a logical level, I'm not a failure. It was very difficult not to internalize the sense that my body was letting me down.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  And you were letting your husband down too.

• 23:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. There is that because Leo's first wife, very, very beautiful. And had six children by five different fathers and all beautiful. And I think I was jealous of the fact that she was being so wonderfully successful. Also, I wanted children. I longed for children. I loved Leo and I just wanted some children. So it's horrid, isn't it?

• 23:28Elizabeth Day?

  It is horrid. How old were you when Felix came into your life?

• 23:32Speaker 01

  I was thirty one.

• 23:33Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  And Emily was about thirty, thirty three years.

• 23:36Elizabeth Day?

  If anyone is listening to this and they are going through a fertility struggle and they are considering adoption, but maybe they're scared of it for various reasons or they're intimidated by the length of the process, what would you say?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  I'd say go absolutely for it. It's been wonderful. It made me so happy. Felix literally was in the house for five minutes, totally, totally in love. The same with Emily. It's absolutely miraculous. You've had this amazing present. I'd recommend anybody to do it. It was wonderful for us.

• 24:10Speaker 02

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• 24:39Speaker 03

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• 24:58Speaker 04

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• 25:02Speaker 03

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• 25:13Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure is your failure to keep to a diet. Tell us about this, Jenny.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  I probably have a very good diet. I mean, I would have tangerine for breakfast, then I have something like sort of broccoli or something for lunch, then I have dinner, but not very much in the evening. And suddenly, I think smug, I'm really thin now, so I'll trot off to the larder and get, you know, chocolate biscuit or a bit of cambric soda or something, and then three glass of mint or something. I lapse and so have to start dieting again the next day. As soon as I get a little bit thin, I get smug.

• 25:48Elizabeth Day?

  Why do you feel you have to diet?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  I've got weight scales. If I'm nearly nine, then I get worried. If I'm nearly eight and a half, I'm happy.

• 25:57Elizabeth Day?

  But why?

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Because I'm a lot here.

• 26:01Elizabeth Day?

  You look amazing.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  No, no, big thighs.

• 26:03Elizabeth Day?

  No, you don't.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Fat thighs.

• 26:05Elizabeth Day?

  This really upsets me because you do look amazing and you always have, and you've always been a very thin.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  No, but I've always had to watch my weight like mad.

• 26:13Elizabeth Day?

  What's your fear about not watching it? What's the ultimate fear? If you didn't diet, what would happen that would be awful?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  I'm fat.

• 26:21Elizabeth Day?

  Why is that awful?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Personally, I like other people, I just don't want to fat myself.

• 26:25Elizabeth Day?

  I know, but why? What's the root cause of it?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Well, the root cause of it, I mean, also, I'm not trying to pull anybody to age seven neither, just don't want to be. Also, because now I have to, I mean, now with rivals, I've got to go on sort of programmes and do television and things like that and look not too bad. I'm trying to be a bit thin.

• 26:42Elizabeth Day?

  How much of this do you think is wrapped up in the era you came of age? You know, I came of age in the 90s, and that was still pretty toxic for women in many respects. And I still have that kind of internal narrative, which is like, should you be eating that? Which I reject, I strive to reject every single day, because as women, we are so much more than what we weigh. How much of how you feel do you think is wrapped up in the culture rather than in the jilly?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  I've always thought I was eleven and a half, seven when I left school.

• 27:13Elizabeth Day?

  And was someone critical of you?

• 27:15Speaker 01

  No, not particularly, but I just felt very fat. And I remember going to France, I was in love with the host son, he was absolutely gorgeous. He said, this is Julie over there, and she said, elle est très laid. And I said, he said, oh, no, no, no, n'est pas très laid, très laid, that's means very ugly. Very laid et gros.

• 27:35Elizabeth Day?

  Et gros, and fat?

• 27:37Speaker 01

  No, no, this was, this was the daughter of the heavenly man, and she just said I was ugly and fat.

• 27:43Elizabeth Day?

  And that's clearly stuck with you?

• 27:44Speaker 01

  It did, it did, I don't want that back.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  I don't mind anybody else being any size, I just don't want to be that myself, I can't get into my clothes, you know, things like that.

• 27:53Elizabeth Day?

  Is there any age that you've been where you have been fully happy with your physical self?

• 28:00Speaker 01

  No, I think pretty smug if one was.

• 28:03Elizabeth Day?

  I suppose there's this desire, well, I have one anyway, that the older I get, the more I'll feel accepting of myself.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  You must be, why are you not accepting yourself?

• 28:15Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, all the normal boring insecurities about, I mean, lots of things, am I lovable, all of that sort of stuff. But in your, now that you're in your eighties, what do you think of yourself? Do you, do you think you accept yourself, love yourself?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  I'm very happy, but I mean, I miss me, but it's fine, I live in a lovely house, and I live in a beautiful part of the country. And I have my children really near, so my grandchildren, I'm very lucky.

• 28:40Elizabeth Day?

  You should eat what you want, Julie.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:43Elizabeth Day?

  And drink what you want.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  No, I don't think I should drink for that one, but much better than I used to be, but we used to drink much, everybody used to drink much more, don't you think?

• 28:52Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, well, when I first started out in journalism, that was sort of early two thousands, and we still went for incredibly long Tuesday lunches with loads of booze.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Did, you had long lunches, didn't you?

• 29:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  And that was lovely, and then you came back to the office and you couldn't remember anything about what you'd done, it was awful.

• 29:08Elizabeth Day?

  Tell me what Margaret Thatcher was like to interview.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Oh, sweet, amazingly, amazingly, of course, when I laid and I collapsed in her office and flood as usual. And say, God, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm like, sit down, Julie, sit down, don't worry, don't worry. Want Julie a cup of tea? And she said, oh, my dear, I gather you would like a longer interview, why don't you come and see me for two hours in Chelsea next week? So how could I not love her for that?

• 29:33Elizabeth Day?

  And did you go and see her in Chelsea?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, lovely. We had a lovely time chatting. And then I'll interview her again later. But I thought she was lovely. I mean, a hell of a job being the first woman to be Prime Minister.

• 29:41Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  I mean, she's bossy boots, but I think the men put her through it, don't you?

• 29:45Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  She had a lovely husband who adored her.

• 29:48Elizabeth Day?

  Well, and he, rather like Leo, was used to being the husband of the more successful high profile.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yes, but Leo was much, Leo was much, Dennis wasn't like that. But Dennis was absolutely gentle and lovely. I thought he was charming.

• 30:01Elizabeth Day?

  Have you met our current Prime Minister, Keir Starmer?

• 30:04Speaker 01

  No, have you?

• 30:05Elizabeth Day?

  I have, actually, yes.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 30:07Elizabeth Day?

  Very nice.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Really?

• 30:09Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. Maybe you should send him some of your books.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:14Elizabeth Day?

  Get invited back to Turn Downing Street.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  I don't know. Is he like, is he like animals?

• 30:18Elizabeth Day?

  I actually didn't ask him if he liked animals, which is now a real failing of mine. I feel like that should be a question in every single interview that I do.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  What?

• 30:25Elizabeth Day?

  Do you like animals?

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Animals?

• 30:27Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. I know, I know you do. I'm saying it should be a question. I should have asked Keir Starmer that and I failed.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yes, you should.

• 30:34Elizabeth Day?

  I, I mentioned that you had given me many more failures, so I'd love to touch on some of those. Your inability to understand anything technical.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Oh, god, awful. Monica, my typewriter, I've typed, manual typewriter, he's got a spare of scissors attached to one side of her, the pen to the other. I used to just sort of cut her. And all the books in this writer's all Monica. And now, and now I don't use a laptop. I don't use, I can't, I'm very good with, my telephone's cocked up now. And, and I can't use all those lovely oblong, I just things that people use. I can tell them facts, you know, press a button and they'll tell you who Shakespeare married and things like that in five seconds. So wonderful. I must learn those. See, if I can't do any of that sort. I mean, as I said in that piece, I mean, Shakespeare actually couldn't do, had any of those aids. He's all right, didn't he, without these things? But I can't.

• 31:25Elizabeth Day?

  Will you be able to wa-watch Rivals? Will someone come and set up the television for you?

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I've got a television here.

• 31:30Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  I can press the television button, I can do that.

• 31:33Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  And press it on wireless. It's awful. Monica's typing comes out so rare than my hair now, so I can't really read her.

• 31:40Elizabeth Day?

  Are you writing something at the moment?

• 31:41Speaker 01

  I want to write a book about Sparta, because Sparta, I'm going to put ancient Greece and all them in my, that's match your men in Sparta.

• 31:48Elizabeth Day?

  Can I ask you a bit about your writing process? When it comes to writing a new book? Where do you start? Do you start with planning or with writing?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Planning, I'm thinking about Sparta. I've got a hair messy. Well, I just started making notes of characters and then notes of chapters and then notes of and then funny remarks and I might fit in that character. I just sort of mess around for about six months and then I get started.

• 32:13Elizabeth Day?

  Right.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  How do you do?

• 32:14Elizabeth Day?

  I am not very good at planning. So I need to start writing to understand the character and then I'll sort of retrofit the plan around that. And then I do do a bit of planning. But I have things very clearly delineated in my head and I can sort of drop myself into the world and remember the characters.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:31Elizabeth Day?

  Do you have that? Because you have this cast of recurring characters now, over eleven novels, The Rutcher Chronicles.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  I think Rupert's sixty now.

• 32:38Elizabeth Day?

  Right. But do you remember them very easily?

• 32:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:42Elizabeth Day?

  No.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  I had to read Rivals again the other day. I couldn't remember. I was slightly shocked by some of the language.

• 32:49Elizabeth Day?

  Who's your favourite fictional creation of your own? Who, if you were stranded on a desert island and you have to choose one of your characters?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Probably Rupert.

• 32:57Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. I mean.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Rather tiring. No, but I love Taggy. I love lots, lots of the characters and, and, and I love the animals too. I love Gertrude in Rivals.

• 33:09Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Dog.

• 33:10Elizabeth Day?

  And your, your final failure of the five that you sent me is driving.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 33:14Elizabeth Day?

  So when did you learn to drive?

• 33:16Speaker 01

  I mean, in your sixties, I think I started. And it was a lovely driving institute called Peter Clarkson. Took a year and a half driving around the country together. And then, then I went, I took, passed my test on a second time.

• 33:29Elizabeth Day?

  What happened the first time that you failed?

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Oh, I guess I ran into something else.

• 33:32Elizabeth Day?

  Ran into someone else?

• 33:34Speaker 01

  No, no, I did, I did pass the second time.

• 33:35Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Everybody fainted at home. I think the whole family were completely horrified. My children were so mean. I mean, they literally used to cross themselves every time they got into a car, my car with me.

• 33:46Elizabeth Day?

  Why do you think?

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Because I was a terrible driver.

• 33:48Elizabeth Day?

  What was it? Were you scared?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Age of fifty something and not even taken a test. It's ridiculous, isn't it?

• 33:55Elizabeth Day?

  I don't think it is, but I suppose it feeds into your inability to understand technical things as well. You're just a creative. You're an artist.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  I'm a hopeless, but then I gave up. I have a lovely white polo, which I loved.

• 34:06Elizabeth Day?

  I feel, hearing you talk, you're very mean about yourself, but very lovely about other people.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  I'm quite lost with other people sometimes, too.

• 34:14Elizabeth Day?

  Are you? Just when you're not, not when you're recording a podcast.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  No, don't mean to be mean, it's just that people are funny, aren't they? So you have to laugh at them, don't you?

• 34:22Elizabeth Day?

  How important is friendship to you?

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Very.

• 34:26Elizabeth Day?

  How many friends do you think you have?

• 34:30Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I have got lots. They'll write to me and say, Julie, we must get together. I do mean to, but I'm always, you must find this, you know, I hate drop us in, because if you're right, you hate drops in, don't you?

• 34:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Just get to the good, best bit in the paragraph or book, then suddenly some idiot comes, wants to drink and everything, and you've lost, lost the plot.

• 34:50Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. But friendship, what do you think it's given to you over the years?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  I had a friendship piece for the Sunday Times, that big double page spread. They were really kind, they liked the piece, and so they said I could have a party, and gave me lots of champagne, I could invite my friends to it. And there's a lovely picture of us all on the lawn in Putney, having a nice time.

• 35:10Elizabeth Day?

  I wonder how you feel being a sort of institution now, because it must be difficult for you to go out on the street in London.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Not anymore.

• 35:20Elizabeth Day?

  Is it not?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  No, in the old days, everybody recognised, now they don't anymore.

• 35:24Elizabeth Day?

  And what was it like when everyone came up to you and recognised you and?

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I didn't mind really, I mean, it was just something that happened. Not everybody recognised me, they did, and I first of all, I would sort of put on a bit of makeup before I went out, things like that. Went out first thing in the morning with white black rings under your eyes, and sort of red veins in your cheeks, that wasn't very attractive. I actually don't look very nice.

• 35:45Elizabeth Day?

  And how do you feel when people pay you compliments, when they say, gosh, your book's meant so much to me?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Oh, it's lovely. I used to get in the Sunday Times, you'd get sort of a hundred finalists a week and things like that.

• 35:55Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. Did you keep them?

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Somewhere, and that's probably why the place is a mess, too.

• 35:59Elizabeth Day?

  And they, and they were important to you?

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Well, they were nice, they were lovely to have. I mean, it was important. I don't mind not getting them now, but I mean, I think the internet's different, don't you?

• 36:07Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, it is different.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  And I think, I think the social, whatever you call it, whatever it is, beast is horrid there.

• 36:12Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, horrible. Don't, don't bother with social media, I would.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Awful. Why? I mean, it's cheating, because they don't say who they are, do they?

• 36:19Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly. They can do it anonymously. Whereas in, in our day, when we were on newspapers, people had to make the effort of putting pen to paper and finding a postage stamp and walking to the postbox, and so there was.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 36:29Elizabeth Day?

  A barrier.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  I think I've mean them.

• 36:31Elizabeth Day?

  So my final question is, if you look back to fourteen year old Gillie, what would she have thought?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  I might have been very proud of myself. I would, wouldn't I?

• 36:39Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, I think so.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm so, I love it, I love the backslap. I'm like, that sounds so ungrateful and so grateful. I mean, I mean, when I got the letter about being a dame, I mean, it arrived at home and I opened it and I thought, oh, somebody's fooling around. So I put it up, I went, what, what? And Felix came in and he said, what's the matter, Mum? What's the matter? I said, I've got a letter. What's a letter? He said, God, who's died? Who's died? I said, no, no, look. He was thrilled too, but I mean, but I mean, you don't expect it, you know what I mean? And you don't think it's really you, but it's very nice.

• 37:12Elizabeth Day?

  We started off talking about literary acclaim versus sales. Do you ever feel that you've been overlooked by a literary establishment and does it matter?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  As long as people read them and enjoy them, as long as, I said, I want to cheer people up, that's what I like to do, or just sort of make them feel, I mean, if they've been crawled into animals or crawled into children, I like to make people not stop doing cruel things. And Animals and More was one of the most important books I wrote, at the Imperial Museum, and that was a lovely book, and it was the saddest book I've ever read. God, it's awful what happened to all these animals. I'm glad I wrote it because it made people aware of how wonderful animals were and how. I was proud of that.

• 37:51Elizabeth Day?

  Dame Gillie Cooper, thank you for cheering people up over all of these wonderful books that you've written. I am loving watching Rivals, and even better for our listeners, you're going to stay on and you're going to cheer them all up because they've been writing in with their problems and failures in failing with friends and they are desperate to get your advice. But thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you. Lovely, lovely time.

• 38:22Elizabeth Day?

  We would love you to follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends and share a link with everyone you know. This is an Elizabeth Dayne Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.