Brogan Graham On Igniting A Fitness Revolution

There are leaders and then there are followers. The best leaders engender devotion to a big, new idea. But only a few successfully grow their conceit into a thriving a enterprise that withstands the test of time. Fewer still scale to mainstream cultural impact. Then there are the charmed select who simply see the world differently. Not how it is, but how it could be. How it should be. The rare figure who infuses his or her vision with a contagion of enthusiasm and connectivity so infectious and powerful, it ignites a revolution – catalyzing a movement that penetrates the mainstream, hypnotizes the masses and forever alters the perspective and behavior of all who fall under its spell. This is the story of Brogan Graham — an irreverent, way-outside-the-box fitness fanatic who, along with partner-in-crime Bojan Mandaric decided to flip the fitness industry on its head and make the world a better place with a creation dubbed November Project. No gyms or machines. No fees or dues. Just two dudes, wide open public space and a fervent, gung-ho tribe of thousands taking over not just urban landscapes but the world, one city at a time. If you’re into fitness and live in a metropolis, chances are you've already caught wind of NP. Maybe you've even attended one of their infamous morning workouts. But for those unfamiliar, November Project started as a simple month-long workout pact between Brogan and Bojan, two former rowers who wanted to stay fit through the cold New England months. One by one, a burgeoning community of fitness freaks joined the party. And before long, the few morphed into a fanatical multitude, bonding around NP's free, open-to-anyone, frentic sweat revivals – the more ice, sleet, snow, and rain the better. Dubbed “the ‘Fight Club' of running clubs”, November Project has matured into a flashmob fitness revolution that now dominates the pre-dawn urban landscape of cities all across North America, Europe, the United Kingdom and even parts of Asia. Thoroughly grassroots and populist to the core, it's a category-defying movement that is redefining how we think about and practice fitness by leveraging community, a simple sense of accountability and open public spaces to motivate and encourage people of all ages, shapes, sizes and levels — welcoming everyone from Olympic medalists and professional athletes all the way to complete fitness rookies and recent couch potatoes. The idea: use movement to turn strangers into friends and connect everyone to the city in which they live. The goal: world domination. This week I sit down Brogan — one-half of the beautiful high-energy, charismatic superhero duo that birthed it all — to find out how he did it, and why. I was super stoked to meet up with Brogan. From the minute he pulled into my driveway and gave me a bear hug (he's a big dude), I knew it was a bromance in the making. I have a strong feeling this is but the first of many future collaborations. This is an amazing conversation about the power of community and storytelling to drive positive cultural change. It's about the audacity to dream big, think different, and act outside the box. It's about the freedom and power of being you. And it's a conversation about unlocking untapped reservoirs of human potential to step into your best, most fully actualized self. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  Try a lot of different things and stay fired up. If you're not fired up by your gym, quit your gym today. If you're not fired up about your job, make a plan and get out of there. Or not, but make decisions instead of just sitting and complaining. I would recommend, whether it's November Project or just the Buffalo Wrap, just trying new stuff. And I think a lot of people love the ethos of, yeah, like, trying new things and meeting new people. And yet, a lot of us don't talk to people on the train or get to know anyone at the other table. And so, I would urge people, whether they're younger, in their younger stages of life, or they're in their last stages of life, that these little ripple effects, whether

• 1:50Speaker 01

  you're the leaders in Boston, sending 1,000 athletes out into the city of Boston with smiles on their face, to create a true ripple effect on a Wednesday morning. Or if it's something as small as just having a small conversation while someone pours you that cup of coffee, I think that those little moments really matter. And I know that seems a little bit elementary, but we, as leaders and members of this fanatic movement, are proof that...

• 2:17Speaker 01

  This shit can happen if you if you try new things and you're willing to just go outside the box and do it wholeheartedly.

• 2:23Rich Roll?

  That's Brogan Graham, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. There are leaders, and then there are followers. Among the leaders, there are people that have an idea, people that create a brand, or perhaps a business. Fewer among these leaders grow it, and fewer still turn it into something super successful. And then there are the select few who see the world differently. Not how it is, but how it could be, how it should be. These are the people who convincingly take their vision for a new and better way and ignite it, ignite it into a movement, an idea that catches fire, captivates people, alters their behavior, their attitudes, their perspectives, and permanently changes lives.

• 3:21Rich Roll?

  Basically, I'm talking about revolution. And that's exactly what Brogan Graham did when he and his buddy, Bojan Mandaric II, a reverent, way outside the box, fitness fanatics, decided to flip the fitness industry on its head and make the world a better place with the birth of something they call November Project. No machines, no gyms, no dues or fees, just two dudes and a tribe of thousands taking over the world, one city at a time. If you're into fitness, or you live in a metropolis, chances are you already know what November Project is, or at least perhaps you've heard of it. But for the uninitiated, NP started as a simple, month-long workout pack between the two former rowers to

• 4:07Rich Roll?

  Stay fit through the cold New England months. And one by one, people started to show up to join them a couple mornings a week for a free outdoor group workout slash community revival meeting, no matter what the weather, the more ice, the more sleet, snow and rain, the better. It's been called the Fight Club of running clubs. It's basically this insane flash mob fitness revolution that dominates urban landscapes and cities all across North America, Europe, the UK, and even Hong Kong. It's a movement, I think it's fair to say, that defies all categories. And it's become successful by leveraging not just movement, but also community and a simple sense of accountability and public spaces

• 4:49Rich Roll?

  to motivate and encourage people of all ages, shapes, sizes and fitness levels. Everybody from Olympic medalists and professional athletes, all the way down to complete fitness rookies and recent couch potatoes, to really redefine what fitness is, what it can be, all to turn strangers into friends and connect everyone to the city in which they live. And this week's guest is one half of the beautiful, high-energy charismatic superhero duo that birthed it. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome to my podcast. I've got a couple more things I want to say about Brogan and November Project and our amazing conversation before

• 5:30Rich Roll?

  we launch into it. But first, I wanted to let you know that my friends Kip and Keegan, the filmmakers behind the amazing documentary, Causpurity, if you're a longtime listener to the podcast, you're familiar with these guys. They've been on twice, episodes 91 and 176. So if you missed those, definitely go back and check them out. Well, they're back with a brand new documentary. It's called What the Health? And it's a groundbreaking follow-up that explores the relationship between our food, our food systems, and the powerful government, big medical, pharma, and health business interests that are making us sick and keeping us sick. I've seen it. I'm in it. And I can tell you that it is super duper powerful. I've got a new podcast with the boys that's all about the new film, including when and where you're going to be able to see it online. And that's going

• 6:15Rich Roll?

  to go up next week. But in the meantime, I wanted to announce that we are hosting a live screening of the documentary on March 29 in Thousand Oaks, California, my neck of the woods. I'm going to be hosting it. There's going to be special guests, plus a plant-based dinner by Joy Cafe, our restaurant partner, and desserts from Karma Baker, our dessert partner, all vegan, all plant-based. It's going to be amazing. It's going to be awesome. For tickets and more information, go to whatthehealthfilm eventbrite.com, whatthehealthfilm eventbrite.com, and I'll put the link to that in the show notes.

• 6:56Rich Roll?

  All right. I was super stoked to meet up with Brogan. From the minute this guy pulled into my driveway and gave me a big bear hug, I knew that this was a bromance in the making. And I've got a very strong feeling and inkling that this is just the very first of many collaborations in our future. We even made a fun and silly two-minute little trailer video for the podcast episode. You can find that on my YouTube page. I've also embedded it on the episode page for this episode on my website, richroll.com. So check that out.

• 7:29Rich Roll?

  Really fun. In any event, this is a conversation, of course, about Brogan's life. It's about the birth and growth of November Project. It's about the power of community and the power of storytelling and the power of social media to positively impact and change culture. It's about thinking and acting outside the box, how powerful that can be. And it's about unlocking untapped reservoirs of human potential so that we can all thrive and live our most authentic, most fully expressed, most actualized, healthiest selves. So this is me and Brogan, and I hope you like it.

• 8:08Rich Roll?

  Good to finally meet you, man.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  This is the best.

• 8:10Rich Roll?

  I know. It took a little, it took a minute, but

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Some organization.

• 8:13Rich Roll?

  I know. It's cool, man. It's awesome. Huge, huge fan of everything that you've done, everything that you're about, and just stoked to get in there with you, man.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  It goes both ways. Like I said to you when I arrived here, people that I think very, very highly of speak very highly of you. So this is a total honor to be here.

• 8:31Rich Roll?

  I appreciate it, man. And you're coming in, you're coming in hot because you were just up in Alaska on a digital detox, eight days off of like social media.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  One of my toes is actually, yeah, one of my toes is

• 8:43Rich Roll?

  Are you okay? Are you breathing?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  I'm thawing. I'm thawing. Yeah, last week I was up in Yellowknife at a folk rebellion

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Digital detox retreat.

• 8:56Rich Roll?

  Folk Rebellion.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Folk Rebellion is a group that's all about, um, you know, putting your phones down and living a little bit more, um, in the moment and those kinds of things.

• 9:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm getting nervous already.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, they believe in rock and roll and stuff like that. So it lined up. But my wife Goldie was, uh, given the opportunity in the last minute to teach yoga. So like, we kind of made a quick decision and we were on like a bunch of airplanes and eventually we're landing on a frozen lake in the middle of nowhere. It's great.

• 9:21Rich Roll?

  It's cool that you can kind of like spontaneously do stuff like that.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and we don't have kids.

• 9:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  And I think one day we'll be able to say like, oh, sorry, we can't go. And usually we cut, I mean, it was, it was awesome. The timing was awesome. So, yeah. We also have a November project in Los Angeles and, um, yeah, just starting the week off with a bunch of, bunch of miles on the Subaru Forester.

• 9:40Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, you're, I mean, traveling is like your basic MO, right? How, how many days out of the year are you on the road?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  You know, I think last year was the, kind of the peak of everything. I think it was two and a half or three weeks each month I was gone, which made, you know, Southern California, it was kind of hard to like get used to or kind of wrap your brain around it. You know, I'd lived in, in Boston, downtown Boston for like 13 years. And so trying to decode what it means to live in, you know, the slow times of Southern California, especially San Diego.

• 10:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  And then not even being there, right? So when people, I'd be on the road, people like, how's San Diego? I'm like, I don't know. I do laundry there. The first through.

• 10:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a bump and run.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, but I love it, you know, living the dream of, of, you know, what my co-founder Boyne and I talked about years ago, which is like, what if we could, you know, jump on airplanes and go check on these tribes and spread the movement of this crazy thing that we kind of just made up.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  Well, I, uh, I checked in with our mutual friend, uh, Caleb Daniloff.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  A little shout out.

• 10:37Rich Roll?

  Before the, uh, before the podcast, your, your co-writer on your book and, uh, and I was like, hey, man, hey, Caleb, like, what should I, Brogan's coming over? What should I talk to him about?

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:47Rich Roll?

  And he gave me a few ideas, which I may or may not get into, but, but one of the things.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  They're bad ideas, I'm sure.

• 10:52Rich Roll?

  Well, well, one of the things that he said that I thought was really interesting was, you know, talk to him about.

• 10:59Rich Roll?

  The sort of audacity that you had over birthing this thing. Like, the idea that it could become a worldwide phenomenon, right?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:12Rich Roll?

  Was something that you guys were talking about and believing in when it was just a small little tribe of people showing up in Boston.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 11:23Rich Roll?

  So where does that, where does that come from?

• 11:25Speaker 01

  You know.

• 11:25Rich Roll?

  That like sense that, that, you know, that sense of possibility?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  I don't, I think that, I think that November Project, you know, we, you know, we talked about what we were doing at November Project and what the workouts were like at November Project and how we were, when it was just Boy and I, right?

• 11:43Rich Roll?

  You called it November, right?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:44Rich Roll?

  The two of you.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  And like, we would be, you know, at our respective apartments and he'd be telling his wife, "Well, tomorrow I have November Project." Well, that was just, "Go meet up with me and like, do pushups in the snow." You know, so November Project, for he and I, was just something kind of like everything else we did in college, where you gotta give it a name and then even if it's really stupid, just believe in it until someone else says it and then it's alive.

• 12:06Rich Roll?

  Well, when you give it a name, then it's real.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Totally. And so, you know, that first month was just a spreadsheet because we're such rower type dudes. We want to have miles, average pace, conditions, details, what time you took a dump, everything. And so it was like, what's the spreadsheet called, you know? And then, once that was up and running, we started the shirts and believing in these workouts. But it was a number of months before we even had anyone, but.

• 12:33Rich Roll?

  And how long ago was this?

• 12:35Speaker 01

  So, the first month, November, the original November Project was just November 2011.

• 12:41Rich Roll?

  And just before we even get into it, maybe just describe what November Project is and like, how big it is now.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Right, so November Project is a worldwide community, free, early morning workouts that are for all levels. Super inclusive and fun, but the price of admission is $0, but it's a full 100% effort. So if your grandma comes and just wants to walk, that's cool, but you better walk your ass off. And if a professional athlete stops by, that's cool, but, you know, you better show us your wheels, Timmy Olson, or what, you know, so, so in that, we get to see a lot of different kinds of athletes in a way that some fitness fads don't.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  You know, you look at

• 13:24Rich Roll?

  Meaning, what do you mean by that?

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Well, meaning like, I think, uh, like CrossFit's great, but it's prohibitive because of cost and the movements are pretty intimidating. And so it ends up being a room full or a box full of really fit people, period. End of story. And some people go there to try their first steps in athletics, but usually not.

• 13:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Whereas we have a really positive culture of like, come one, come all, but be ready to work your butt off. So I think a lot of new athletes are born, whether they're in their twenties or they're in their fifties, or maybe they were never picked in gym class. And when they're doing these workouts right next to someone who was the gym class hero or is a professional athlete, I think that goes a long way.

• 14:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Inclusiveness is like

• 14:05Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 14:05Rich Roll?

  A key theme of the whole thing. Like just having that welcome mat.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:09Rich Roll?

  That says, we want you to come show up.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:12Rich Roll?

  You know, we're like, you walked in my house, you gave everybody a hug, right?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  That is

• 14:15Rich Roll?

  Bringing that kind of energy into

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:18Rich Roll?

  Into the whole idea.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, and to go back to, you know, what Caleb was, you know, kind of getting at, I think, so that was the fall of 2011, 2012, we didn't really have anything online or Twitter account or a blog or anything until the spring. And that was when November Project was hosting Wednesday morning workouts and the tweets went out to nobody.

• 14:38Rich Roll?

  Right. So how, how long before it became three people?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Um, so just Bojan and I, you know, I, I think our first member, her name is Sarah Wilds. She gets brought up quite a bit. Uh, I think she came out in the spring, April, May.

• 14:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  And, um,

• 14:55Rich Roll?

  And you guys were your crew guys.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:58Rich Roll?

  Crewed together in college.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:59Rich Roll?

  You were, you were coaching crew, right?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:00Rich Roll?

  At the time at Northeastern?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I had coached, uh, for four spring seasons, four years at Northeastern, uh, where we had both rode and Bojan was actually doing his grad school work and coaching at Syracuse. So we actually rate, our crews raced each other at some events, which is awesome. Um, so it wasn't a stretch for Bojan and I to hold a space and say, all right, guys, quiet down. We're not gonna, we won't get going until we have everyone's attention. We, we knew how to coach and lead a

• 15:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  A practice or a workout and But it was pretty funny that first day that Sarah showed up because she kind of walks in kind of confused following some random tweet by

• 15:33Rich Roll?

  Oh, so you tweeted it that you're like, it's just the two of you. It's time to expand. So we're going to tweet out. One woman shows up.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  So we tweeted out and then my buddy who was doing the marketing at Marathon Sports, which is a specialty running shoe store in Boston, he retweeted it and they had like, I think at the time they had like 2,000 followers, which for us was like the entire world.

• 15:54Rich Roll?

  Right. And this is early days of Twitter too.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, but to have people that really care about running, local Boston specialty run, like Sarah Wild was a former division one athlete. She played some years of pro soccer. She worked at New Balance. She's all things running and she's like, but she's also like a really polite personality that shows up and she just kind of comes around the corner and says, are you guys, is this November project? I mean, we lost our shit. We thought it was the coolest thing. I mean, we were

• 16:25Rich Roll?

  Was she expecting like a big group of people?

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Well, I think this, the kind of the legend has it that she like told her, uh, maybe boyfriend or dad or something like, I'm going to this thing to meet these guys in the morning in the dark. It sounds shady and it might be. So I think that she was

• 16:39Rich Roll?

  And she shows up. She's like, yeah, it is shady.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. You know, like it wasn't exactly like, you know, we gave her the brochure. It was like, we kind of went in for the hug, I think. And then three of us just started running up and down the stairs at Harvard. And I, I kind of accidentally spoke down to her a little bit more in a way that felt inclusive of like, hey, look, this workout's pretty tough. We're going to go from here to there all the way around a pretty good amount of work. If you want to do this, it's your first time would be to do half. And that's still our, that still is the rule at in Boston. Um, we didn't know we were dealing with like the total wolf in sheep's clothes. Like she, she was like, okay, well we'll see. But what she meant was like some version of like, I'm going to destroy you guys.

• 17:17Rich Roll?

  I'm going to crush you. Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  And so I think we came through section 19, which is the halfway point. And she was still right there with us, not really breathing as hard as us. And,

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Back in the day, we just did random, and they still do random things in the Boston Tribe, but the first thing was, hey, look, if you can finish this thing today with us, I think it was under 30 minutes, I told her to buy her, buy her a large pizza. Which is like, you're kind of in the heat of battle, you know, your lungs are burning, your legs are on fire, you think you're gonna pass out or throw up, and then someone says, I'll get you a large pizza. I mean, the whole thing was just so weird. And of course, she finished it out, and of course, her time was fast. But then I also hooked her to buy her back for the next Wednesday. So then, the very first photo we have on our blog, if you go all the way back, is Sarah, after her second workout, holding up a large frozen DiGiorno. I think it was like a supreme.

• 18:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  That just gives you all the options.

• 18:06Rich Roll?

  Right. Okay, so, so you got your, your triangle, right? And so, it is getting real.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Very real.

• 18:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, and it was there, so I, I assume it just sort of progressively grew from there? Was there like a tipping point moment where it exploded? Or was there like, was it a gradual thing? Or was there like a couple?

• 18:24Speaker 01

  There was a couple. There were a couple of keys that spring, summer, and then definitely the next spring. So, that spring, you know, Boyne and I started off kind of ahead. It's not like we were new to town. We had a bunch of buddies that were kicking around that were good athletes that still wanted to train, that had been to the Harvard Stadium, that knew what was up. People who've known me for more than a few years know that I paint t-shirts and talk a big show, and sometimes it turns into something, usually it doesn't. And so, there's some sort of level of hype, and something's gonna happen with all the right people. Goldie Coffenberg, who's now Goldie Graham, my wife, at the time, I had just met her, and she came out to like, a November project, like, a month in or something, or, you know,

• 19:08Speaker 01

  a few in, and she was the first of like, seven people there. And she said to me, when she left that day, and she said, do you want me to blow this up? Do you want me to like, make this into something? In kind of a confident way, where I was like, who do you think you are? We know, you know, I actually even remember, my, my answer was like, no, just, I'll get, I'll get back to you, you know? And Goldie's extremely connected through her yoga community in Boston, and I don't really care how this sounds, or how you cut it, but like, that's a lot of predominantly female athletes. And-

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Sure enough, like in the next few weeks, she rolled through with 20, 30, 40 people. And it changed, it changed the game.

• 19:50Rich Roll?

  Dynamic, yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  And Bojan and I, at that time, were shooting photos and posting albums and trying to tell a big story.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  But you start posting photos of the women that she was rolling with in the day, running up and downstairs in the sunshine. I mean, we started getting interest pretty quickly.

• 20:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, that's how you're getting, getting more guys that way.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Totally. Well, because we, and then we said at the time, we were like, well, because the key is men and women like training with attractive women. That became the line. And like, it might not be PC, but like, that was, that was kind of what we were throwing out.

• 20:20Rich Roll?

  I get it. But, but the idea, like, the big idea was always there, like, the idea, like, we're gonna blow this, we are gonna blow this thing up. We are trying to create a movement.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Well, so I think early, so I would love to sit here and be like, this whole time.

• 20:33Rich Roll?

  You had, you masterminded it from day one.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  This was the idea, but it wasn't. We were just fanning the flames, I think, especially early on. And we, you start, you know, there's this picture that I have in my head, but it's also on one of our first Facebook albums. This black and white photo of us looking from section 37 down the stadium. And it's different size athletes in the foreground blending off to the back. And I remember that photo thinking it looked like a tornado of people and it was total mayhem. I think there was 35 people, you know, and so.

• 21:01Rich Roll?

  And now, just for context, you're getting how many people showing up at Harvard Stadium?

• 21:06Speaker 01

  You know, our biggest day there is 1,400 people. In the summertime on a Wednesday, if you combine the 5:30 and the 6:30 group, they could see 1,000 people. And so that summer was really interesting because it was the lockout, NHL lockout. And there's a really cool, kind, badass community guy who was floating around, a defenseman who had just won the Stanley Cup with the Bruins. Number 21, Andrew Ferentz. And he was doing the stadium on his own. He went into a bike shop, Landry's Bike Shop on Comm Ave. And the dude who owns the place knew what we were up to. And he said, hey, you should go when these guys go. So Andrew came out right when we had hit 100 people.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  And we had just made the promise to our tribe of 100, which to us at that point seemed like 10,000. We said, if we ever break 300 people in a single workout, we'll get November Project tattoos. And that was like. That seemed just like pretty impossible. Well, Andrew has a ton of ink and he loves a challenge and he's huge on Twitter.

• 22:07Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  And so.

• 22:08Rich Roll?

  So one week later.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  I mean, it was insane and it was awesome too because you know, Goldie brought the yoga people off their mat. Andrew brought people that showed up in their jerseys that wanted like an autograph or a photo, a selfie with him. And he was so cool that he was like, let's get moving. Like, you know, he's not, he's never above taking a photo or being kind. I mean, I've been with him in situations where he's stopped and given even too much time for a fan. It's just so awesome. But in this setting, he's like, no, no, that's not what we're doing here. November project, the price, the price to play is you gotta move your body. So let's go. And so there are people still to this day that came out because of Andrew as Bruins fans that were transformed into new kind of.

• 22:48Rich Roll?

  That's super cool.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Folks, so.

• 22:50Rich Roll?

  Well, it was also a really interesting time because social media was really, you know, starting to bloom and blossom in a way that kind of merged perfectly with.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:00Rich Roll?

  Your kind of messaging or your kind of efforts to get the word out.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:04Rich Roll?

  So here you are, you're in, you know, you're basically around Harvard, the birthplace of.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 23:09Rich Roll?

  Facebook.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Zuckerberg's old dorm.

• 23:11Rich Roll?

  Did you crew with the Winkleville?

• 23:13Speaker 01

  So they were on the water at the same time as us. They were a little bit younger, uh, a little bit faster, a little bit better looking. Uh, and there was two of them.

• 23:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, Harvard and Northeastern guys don't have the best history. Um, if there was like a working class, blue collar team in division one rowing, we might be that. I know that's an oxymoron, but, um, the Charles River is an interesting place because there's four division one teams there or five, you know, but.

• 23:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  BC is a club. So it's like, imagine like if Michigan and Ohio State shared the same practice facility for football. So it's like, it's insane. So there's a lot of like, you come around the corner and under a bridge and there those guys are again that you gotta race in April. So, um.

• 23:54Rich Roll?

  But you guys sort of knew early on, like, look, we're going to use social media to, to get a foothold here and, and create, you know, that's going to be a major tool in community building here and really leveraging those tools by like posting the photos and, you know, making sure that you're tweeting out and all that kind of stuff.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:11Rich Roll?

  What kind, what was the? You know, what was the role that social media played and continues to play? Cause it feels like it was instrumental.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And I say that that time was like a, like a hot, a hot spot, hot moment in time where like, at that point, it felt like everyone, for the first time, really was on social. And like, folks had their parents on Facebook, even if they didn't really know how to, like, everyone at that point had an account, whereas five years prior, it was still new. So people knew how to operate it and people knew how to kind of see their photos and kind of, you know, make it happen. The first thing that we had was a Twitter account and then a blog.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  And that was back before Twitter could post photos. So immediately we saw like these moments of like, I mean, the Harvard Stadium is so hard, it's like a heroic effort, plus it's a stone facility and it's super old. It's like, almost no matter where you point, you know, digital SLR camera, it's going to turn out epic. I mean, everyone looks like, you know, Gladiator.

• 25:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  You know, so, um, right away it became, you know, we gotta get these images out there and our process, mostly credit to Bojan on this, was about keeping the content really live time. So if we have our workout on Wednesday, you know, we shoot 200 photos, you get them chopped down to 70, edited blog post, and you all package it out and push it before the middle of those athletes mourning. You know, their legs are still sore, they're probably still sweating and they're definitely talking about this experience. But by the time they get to lunch, they've already been tagging in some photos and their friend Carl from accounting is saying, so what's this November project? So it was a really cool experiment of like, hype it with social, real human contact matters

• 25:45Speaker 01

  in person, stoke the flame with social so that real human conversations happen and that it just kept cycling. And then this thing is Instagram's come along and it's just kind of continued to help.

• 25:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  For sure. For sure. I mean, that's, that's when, when you have nothing to lose, you know, when, when your only two followers are Brogan and Bojan for November Project, you can drop as many F-bombs as you want. And then all of a sudden, it's like, you, you accidentally put yourself in this class of people on social that are actually kind of speaking how they usually speak, you know, and not cleaning it up. And, um, You know, whereas marathon sports or some of the local brands like they kind of have to pay attention to their brand, we were just like, whatever. I mean, at that time, the, the, the statement about us from other run clubs in Boston was that they are the Fight Club of run clubs, Cambridge Running.

• 26:33Rich Roll?

  That's like the best.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Right, totally.

• 26:35Rich Roll?

  You could ever get, right?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Totally. I mean, that's, you know, that was one of my favorite films. We, we actually used that film in a lot of what we did, you know, when it came to like, talking about November Project Los Angeles, for example. All of the tribes, for the most part, early on were the airport code. So it's NPLAX.

• 26:53Rich Roll?

  Oh, okay.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Or NPDC, instead of DC. And so, because there's that funky scene at the beginning where he wakes up on different runways and it's like, right.

• 27:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I remember.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Even the pledge process of how you start your own tribe, at least for the first number of years.

• 27:05Rich Roll?

  But the main difference is with Fight Club.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  The first two rules.

• 27:08Rich Roll?

  Yes, never talk about Fight Club. It's like, always talk about November Project.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  First rule, NP is talk about NP. Second rule?

• 27:15Rich Roll?

  Constantly.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Totally. So yeah, so that, that was a really cool time. And it's what I was doing professionally and, and Bojan was, you know, his degree is in, is in media and he was able to make our blog good. And even though his second language is English and I barely speak it and we had tons of spelling and grammar, it was like, the timeliness of your day. And I think anyone that's creating content, whether it's a blogger, you're a photographer, it's like, turn your stuff around quick and it can be good. And good becomes great. Great a week late is only okay, in my opinion.

• 27:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  And we were seeing that for the first time. Wow, you guys got the blog up already? Well, the blog just like had a bunch of fart jokes and like a bunch of polished photos, but like.

• 27:53Rich Roll?

  But it was a.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  It was content and people were still humming from their experience.

• 27:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. And it's, you know, it's, it's interesting to kind of watch these trends in, in fitness and to see people kind of burn out on the typical health club gym situation.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:07Rich Roll?

  Like, am I really going to go and get on the Stairmaster again? And then you see the explosion, you know, of CrossFit.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:13Rich Roll?

  Because it's participatory and because it's communal.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:17Rich Roll?

  And there's accountability and you're going to go there and you're going to know the people and they're going to expect that you're going to show up and all that kind of stuff, right? That gets people excited about it. And there's a lot of that, that, you know, infuses the core of what you guys are doing.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 28:30Rich Roll?

  But like, how do you, like, you know, what is, what is the secret sauce?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:35Rich Roll?

  The November Project that like holds it together and has allowed it to become like such a massive phenomenon.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think that anytime.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  We talk about it as a movement that's working in Baltimore and Milwaukee and Orlando and Iceland and Hong Kong. I think you have to look at the regional leaders. We call them co-leaders, the people who created these tribes. They pledged to build something and they're committed every Wednesday for kind of ever, rain or shine. And it's, it's that kind of personality.

• 29:03Rich Roll?

  How do you become like a leader?

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I didn't want to bring up Fight Club too many times in this interview, but I did. We have a process where you reach out to the website. We have a page on our website that says how to start a tribe. Basically, you, you reach out to us and tell us why you're qualified and how you have these, these handful of extra hours in your week and how you've led things in the past and why you believe in this community. And then we jump on a Skype and figure out if you're the right kind of person, if we like you and if it's going to be fun. And from there, there's a challenge of eight or more Wednesdays where you, Rich Roll, November Project Rich Roll, has to build a community without calling it November Project.

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  Ah, I see.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  So it'd be called Fit Project Roll, Roll Project, or whatever. And then eight Wednesdays later, it's just you sitting here at your house with your dogs and your headphones. And I would have to email you and be like, Rich, it's not, it's not, it's not really working out. Right? So, and then the flip side is that then you do build a community and you do source your neighbor and the mailman and the waitress and the trucker and the dude is pumping the gas. And it's like, you, you're frantic for eight Wednesdays. You're frantic about building something. And hopefully that sets the tone to figure out that this is a, it's a topic that you're allowed to talk to people about, right?

• 30:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  We all, you know, we all gravitate towards cities and towns that we think are beautiful or upbeat and then we don't speak as much to each other. So these leaders, they build something important. And then for anyone that hasn't been in November Project Workout, I think the human contact piece is important. You know, we've always believed in this concept of hugging instead of shaking hands. And if you were to go to your first this week, you'd be like, wow, everyone here knows each other. But it's just because of the hugging culture of like, it's just, that's what we're doing. And

• 30:43Speaker 01

  It was a part of the team that Bojan and I were on, a bunch of dudes who were six foot five, really scary looking guys, but for whatever reason, like we were huggers instead of shakers and it was just kind of always just like.

• 30:52Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And to, to kind of extend the, the Fight Club analogy even further, I mean, you know, Fight Club's all about.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Please, please do.

• 30:59Rich Roll?

  I mean, I could talk about it for hours, but yeah, it's about stripping away the artifice in your life and, and, you know, and, and sort of scraping away at, you know, these sort of self-imposed prisons that we've created around our lives and, and trying to tap into something that's, that's authentic, right? That's real, that makes our heart beat and, and, uh, you know, gets us out of bed in the morning, right? And that's really what November Project taps into because people, it's like a revival in the morning, right? Like it's insane, the amount of energy.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's, that's one thing that I've.

• 31:32Rich Roll?

  You can't fake that.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Right. And I think that, that comes from the workouts being free because when you pay your 35 for spin, or you pay your whatever for crossfitter, when you pay that, then you're, then you are being served at the bar, at the fitness bar. So give me that experience, give me that energy.

• 31:48Rich Roll?

  Well, you get an expectation.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Totally. But if you show up to something that's free, that you got yourself there, you're almost like a shareholder in a way that like, you recognize almost right away, like if I hoot and holler, that makes this better. If I race my butt off, that makes this better. If I'm upbeat and positive, that makes, you know, like you have more control because you are a part of it. We say November Project tribes are built every week. It's great that you've been coming for the last couple of months, but are you going this Wednesday? And, um, in that way, it's like a never finished, very imperfect, um, kind of rough around the edges, like, you know, people say grassroots and people say community and they love to sprinkle community on everything, but like, that's the true definition of what we are.

• 32:25Rich Roll?

  Well, it's interesting because you would think, like it's sort of counterintuitive because you would think, well, if you really want to incentivize people, they have to shell out a few bucks because then they feel like they're invested, like they paid for it. So now they have to show up.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:38Rich Roll?

  But you're working in, you know, sort of contradiction to that.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, the, the creative drive and the, um,

• 32:46Speaker 01

  The intensity and the passion that comes from these leaders who I don't like calling them volunteers, but that's what it is, is unmatched. And the vibe that's created by people feeling like they're truly a part of something that's built that morning is really cool. And I've been through all walks of kind of life of fitness and been on the sidelines for things that I haven't participated in and just seen a lot of the industry, not really intentionally. And I don't think I see much like this, where the energy is super high. People really do care that you're there. They hope you come back. It's almost like that Midwest vibe of like, travel safe, hope to see you next time. Right. And, and people are really proud, you know? I mean, people are proud to be a part of something that, sure, it's a movement that's in Hong Kong

• 33:31Speaker 01

  and in New York City, but man, November Project Worcester might be the proudest tribe. You know what I mean? Like, it's something that, you know, November Project Indianapolis is really psyched that they had a tribe before LA. And they'll tell you.

• 33:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  You know, and it's like, it's something to be connected to.

• 33:48Rich Roll?

  It's, it's interesting that you guys were able to scale it because you, both of you have such huge personalities. Like, you guys have a lot of charisma. And so, you know, how do you transfer that onto these other cities where you guys aren't showing up all the time and make sure that it carries that same, you know, trademark energy?

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:06Rich Roll?

  You're seeing in Boston.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  You know, I, I would love to think that I'm like Mr. Finesse and Mr. Management, and I can read people really well, but like, that's, that's part of what makes this difficult, especially early on in the process of like, are we gonna let these dudes or gals start their own tribe? And it's the X factor, right? You can say, okay, so she's a spin instructor, or, okay, he was in the military, so he knows how to yell at people. Okay, he was a good runner, but like, will all those things come together as they become a blogger and a photographer and an inspirational leader and a coach and a friend and a hype man and a rent a clown, all in one? You don't really know. And so, we try and some size people up early on. And that's why I think some of the Google Hangouts and the Skype dates like are really important.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  If we make a stupid joke and it doesn't land, does that mean we're not funny? Or like, they're not on our wavelength? I don't know.

• 34:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  But like, we have to think, we have this leadership summit every year. We, I, you know, Boyne and I speak so often about, will they make it more fun? Or will they make it more weird? Or will they make it more competitive? And so

• 35:11Rich Roll?

  But on some level, you also have to let go a little bit.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Oh, totally, totally. And I think that that's, that's a tough one. It's a tough one.

• 35:19Rich Roll?

  Have you had cities that words didn't work out?

• 35:22Speaker 01

  We've had cities that haven't worked out.

• 35:23Rich Roll?

  Cratered?

• 35:24Speaker 01

  We've had a couple. Gary, Indiana, we closed up. No, just kidding. No, we have. Yeah, we had, we had, I think, I think people underestimate how hard we, and not just Boyne and I, but all of the Boston Tribe, and not just the Boston Tribe, but all the first seven tribes, 10 tribes, how insane and rabid we were about recruiting. I spoke to everyone on the street. My wife will tell you stories these days about how like borderline insane it was. Because I, you know, it's like the Phil Knight thing. If you have a body or an athlete, it's like, I just remember seeing people and being like, wow, that fucking guy needs this for fitness. He needs this for like

• 36:03Rich Roll?

  You just roll up on people?

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You have like flyers and stuff?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  We made these things out of like cardboard boxes, beer boxes back in the day called recruiting papers. But it wasn't a leave behind. It wasn't like a flyer like here, Greenpeace on the street. It was like if they earned it through the conversation, it was a leave behind. But I was, you know, the easy of the layup is like when you see someone running stuff. Oh, wow. You like those running shoes? I've never seen those before. What do you get? What are you training for? I mean, you look fast. Oh, that's awesome. Okay, cool. Have you heard of November Project? You know, that's the easy one because that person's already moving. But getting people to consider trying to show up for the first time as a new athlete or someone who's been a long ways from their last workout. Those are the uphill battles that when you win them just are the best.

• 36:44Rich Roll?

  And, and in terms of like winning those battles, I mean, the stories of people's lives who have changed, you know, transformed by this experience is insane. Like that video, that video is really well done. What's it called again?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  The film.

• 36:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  It's called Showing Up.

• 36:59Rich Roll?

  Showing up.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Showing up.

• 37:00Rich Roll?

  Basically, you track the lives of a variety of people.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:04Rich Roll?

  Basically, the impact that November Project has had on their lives is amazing.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that project was something that we were extremely, well, I should say are extremely proud of. And it was probably our biggest moment last year. The two young filmmakers, guys Dylan Lads and Ryan Skerr of Dooster Film have been shooting with us nearly since the beginning. When we could only offer them a plane ticket to go somewhere to do some kind of a weird stunt. And so they've been sitting on a bunch of content for a long, long time. Because of our partnership with the North Face, we were able to send them on the road and tell these eight stories, some of which were super thoughtful and dark and intense and but some of them are upbeat and I think what makes that story, that film so killer is that

• 37:51Speaker 01

  everyone's got a million excuses, right? And everyone, you know, has a reason why they can't or they're not really, that's not their thing. The eight stories that we tell in that film are reasons why people against all odds are able to pull themselves out of bed, whether it's in Washington DC or in Vancouver, anywhere in the world and go be a part of this thing that's really fun, good for your city and good for your body. And, um, man, I'm proud of that film.

• 38:16Rich Roll?

  And there are people that might not have ever found their way to fitness.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:19Rich Roll?

  Very unlikely athletes.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 38:22Rich Roll?

  And then you see the impact of their transformation on the people in their sphere.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:27Rich Roll?

  Like the judge and like how he's getting everybody in his courthouse.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 38:31Rich Roll?

  Do all, get fit again. And like, it's really inspiring.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, to, the, the underdog story is a great one. Um, you know,

• 38:38Rich Roll?

  And the transgender, you know, Ironman athlete.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 38:42Rich Roll?

  It's really, you know, heartwarming.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  You know, the, the, the pieces that I thought were interesting about that film was the stories that were a little bit downplayed. You know, Sasha in San Francisco, it just barely like skates through the fact that she ran, she ran division one track at Brown. Like, on paper, she does not need this community to get a run in, right? But so why does she keep going? And her connection through her friend Sam and the community of San Francisco that was, that was around her in some extreme times. You know, Rich in Vancouver, he's a two-time Olympian swimmer. Like, we kind of skated through that point. They, in order to prove the point that that doesn't necessarily matter. Cause if, if an Olympian's in bed and not contributing to his community, it doesn't matter.

• 39:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  So, um, that film is one that if you, if anyone has 27 minutes and they want to like laugh and cry and get inspired, it's on YouTube showing up, November Project. It's, in my opinion, it's like, I don't know, the best thing, the best thing in the world.

• 39:42Rich Roll?

  Yes, great. I'll put a, I'll put a link in the, um, in the show notes.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Cool, cool.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so people can check it out.

• 39:54Rich Roll?

  You know, I'm interested in like why some movements work and other movements don't like, what is it about, you know, November project that has allowed it to flourish? And I see like a lot of parallels with Alcoholics Anonymous.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:10Rich Roll?

  Which was started by two dudes.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 40:13Rich Roll?

  Who basically were just trying to help hold each other accountable for not drinking.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 40:18Rich Roll?

  And then they create this thing, which you don't have to pay any money. It's free.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:22Rich Roll?

  Basically, you can contribute or whatever, but it's free. Nobody's in charge. There's no organizational body.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:28Rich Roll?

  There's no board of directors.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:30Rich Roll?

  And there's certain elements in the way, in the kind of way that that's structured, that I think has allowed it to blossom and grow.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:38Rich Roll?

  And I see certain kind of similar aspects in November project. I mean, keeping it free and like the way that you've allowed it to expand. It would be very easy for you two guys to just hold on to it and make it your thing and try to control the whole thing.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  And turn it into a business where you're franchising it.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Charged for the workouts.

• 40:53Rich Roll?

  Trying to make it like, you know, a huge industry like CrossFit. I mean, you must have had, did that ever come up as like?

• 40:59Speaker 01

  It comes up.

• 41:00Rich Roll?

  We should do that.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:01Rich Roll?

  Why aren't we?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Right, right. It came up a lot back in the day.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  It comes up all the time, even to this day. And I think that, um, you know, we used to not have answers. So we would come with this really confident like world takeover. We believe in kindness and, you know, in hard work, adult gym class and hugging. If you don't understand that, get out of our face. You know, it's like partially.

• 41:24Rich Roll?

  We believe in hugging, but if you don't like that, fuck you.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Totally. Get out of here. You know, but, but, uh, I think any conversations we've had, and when I say we, I mean, any of our leaders, with anyone from the outside, if they're asking those hard questions about like, so when are you gonna, how are you gonna charge? Let's charge. They're like, let's make it a, you can turn the corner. Let's make some money here. They're don't, they don't get it. If someone goes to a couple of these workouts, they're like, okay, this is, this is the way, this is perfectly imbat, perfectly balanced. So, and then, um, the end game, people always talk about the end game. What's your end game? What is the end game?

• 42:01Speaker 01

  It's become almost a joke. It's like, well, we want to build these communities all over the world. So I don't know. How many communities are there? You know, like, you know, and, and the best part about it is like this, this intense way of speaking about like world takeover, or like, like the generalities of humans and how all cultures could use a little bit more movement and kindness. We used to get laughed at. Like, really, like, like, you're not gonna get more than these 300 people here in Boston. No one would ever be as passionate as you guys outside of here. This will never work. And I'm not saying we were sitting on the answers like some geniuses. Absolutely not. But as it grew, less people have been laughing, and more people say, world takeover, where are we going next? And, uh,

• 42:45Rich Roll?

  Because why?

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Because I think that people, and this is an important thing to connect to what you're saying before about social. People need to connect. And it's become, especially in the last couple of years, like kind of a buzz phrase. But man, the better we get at pushing the buttons on our new iPhones, and waiting for the next one to come out, the worse we get at having conversation with the mailman, and talking to that cute looking gal at the end of the bar, and welcoming the new neighbors to town. And these social skills, and I know that I'm sort of almost dating myself, sounding like the crotch of the old man, but like,

• 43:16Rich Roll?

  Hey, man, I'm a lot older than you.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  They matter, right? Those skills matter. Those connections matter. And that high that you get from these workouts, if you do it with a group of supportive people, is like, nothing else you'll experience all day or all week. And so I think that is what's made it work. But let's also not forget that because each of these sets of co-leaders are like, they don't have a boss. It's like this unruly, like, organization that's woven together by things that we do in practices and kind of ethos, but

• 43:47Rich Roll?

  It, it, it keeps the, it keeps

• 43:48Speaker 01

  It's free form.

• 43:49Rich Roll?

  It keeps the cool factor high. It, it maintains, it's like punk rock ethos.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 43:54Rich Roll?

  And, you know, it kind of goes to when you're, when you're talking about, you know, what's your end game? It reminded me of, you know, the scene in The Social Network, where, where, you know, they're having that conflict over whether they should sell ads on the site, and, and, and just keeping the integrity of what it is.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  We don't know what it is, but it's cool.

• 44:11Rich Roll?

  And underappreciating the fact that coolness wins every time.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:15Rich Roll?

  You've got to maintain that. And once you lose that, the game is over.

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:18Rich Roll?

  So maintaining that cool factor is the innate value

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:22Rich Roll?

  of the whole enterprise.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And so how do you, as you grow and scale, how do you ensure that that stays intact?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  You know, it's, um, it's something I think about a lot. It's something I think about a lot. And I think that, um, when it comes to the communication we have with these leaders and, and where they, the, the venue, what part of town you want to host it? What will you do? What will your PR day look like? How are you going to recruit? Like, those conversations are really important.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  And then in the end, in a coin flip, locally, the leaders in their communities know better than I ever will, you know? And, um, but it goes back even before that, where it's like, do we have the right people? And is someone perfectly calculated and insane enough to do this?

• 45:05Rich Roll?

  And then beyond that, how do you tell the story, right? Like storytelling is a huge part of this.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 45:12Rich Roll?

  As well. And you guys have done a great job of, of knowing how to translate what is actually happening into a story that, you know, can connect with people.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:21Rich Roll?

  And, and, you know, get them interested in what you're doing.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and I, and I think that people, you know, when it comes to storytelling, can look in any platform that they like. You can be on Twitter, you can follow the link, you can just follow the 140 characters, you can follow the hashtag, you can watch the whole film, you can read the whole book, you can just go to the workout and not even have a smartphone. Like, I think storytelling is all around us and a lot of these tribes have looked to their members to tell stories of, you know, similar to the film, who's there? And it's really cool to realize like, oh, I've been working out with these guys and gals for a year. I don't even know what any of them do for a living. But not because we haven't gotten, had a really serious bond, because it doesn't matter.

• 46:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  And at that hour, it's so hard just to get there and the workout's so hard on its own, that it's the one place in town where it's super social through the roof. But it doesn't, your business card will never come up. And so when these, uh, when these characters, when these members get an opportunity to tell their story on our blog or through social, whatever form of storytelling, it's explosive locally. And then the ones that we get to share out through the whole movement.

• 46:24Rich Roll?

  It's almost like this crazy, uh,

• 46:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:28Rich Roll?

  experimental, like, performance art project that went haywire.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 46:33Rich Roll?

  And got bigger than you ever thought it would.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Totally. It's like a science fair project.

• 46:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Dad, let's build a volcano. We have a real volcano. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, um, it is a social experiment and, you know, one of the tweets that's pinned to the top of our page is, you know, the November Project movement is working, just as simple as that. And it shows the seven nations' flags that have this. And, um, I think people are still, you know, there's folks still on the edges that are saying that's slowing down. When are you gonna, I mean, world takeover is real.

• 47:03Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, sort of, what do you infer from that? Like culturally, like what's going on right now? You know, not just in America, but across the world that makes something like this so attractive? I mean, we're, you know, we're living in divided times right now. There's a lot of fear and anger and, you know, anxiety with people. And, you know, it seems like this is a place, it's like a safe haven where

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 47:25Rich Roll?

  people can express themselves physically and, and communally.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean,

• 47:30Rich Roll?

  And kind of transcend all of that.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Completely. A, a place of support is huge. A place where you know you can go and dial into your own, you know, telephone booth and do your workout and get out of there. You don't have, you know, it's not, you don't have to stick around for coffee or hug a thousand people. You can just take and go. Um, I think that, yeah, I think that.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  People are finding that this is a place that's agenda free. And I kind of pause on that because it's so hard to have conversations these days, especially when you involve Facebook, that don't get politically charged. But we found early on, and these were some of the rules that we set in Boston, and like a lot of things that we built in Boston around November project, we weren't really sure, but it's ended up trickling through. And so every April, there's the Boston Marathon. And in the tribe of 102, 3, 4, 500 people, there's gonna be a number of people that are running for charity. Great. Really good. Well, Rich is running for charity and he wants to make an announcement about his fundraiser that's happening tonight at the bar for leukemia.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Good cause. Great guy. Okay, runner. Well, Rich, if we let Rich speak, then she's gonna wanna talk about AIDS and then cancer and then, and then someone lost their hat at the last workout and then I forgot where I parked. So, early on, we said, no announcements.

• 49:02Rich Roll?

  Right. Outside, it's like in AA, that would be called an outside issue.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Totally. An outside issue, even though it's so relevant and this is such a ripe community to say, hey, guys, we, we all have a coupon for 10% off across the street at Starbucks. Thanks, Starbucks. Like, we just weren't playing those games. And so, I think people know that you can go there and you can have voted for anyone you wanted. And you can believe in whatever you want, but it's not a place for your agenda.

• 49:31Rich Roll?

  Well, that undermines the inclusivity, right? When you have people from all walks of life and you have the Olympians and the pro athletes and then you have the 350-pound, you know, woman who's like showing up for the first workout and, you know, decades or whatever, and you gotta create a warm environment that allows everybody to feel comfortable with that. You gotta take that stuff off the table.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And it's funny to know backstories, political affiliation, you know, people's certain interests, whether they're leaders or members and just be like, okay, keep it about the workout. Keep it about why you started this, you know, or why you originally came out to this and... For the most part, I think even during the last few months of kind of awkwardness and kind of odd movement, you know, in the political landscape, it's been something that we've been able to stick to our guns on for sure.

• 50:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's great, man. So, so when was the, how long into it before you kind of expanded to your next city? Like, what was the next city after Boston?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Right. So that's, that to me is one of my favorite stories that doesn't get told enough. But I have one sibling in my family, he's two years older, he's like my best friend and sometimes my enemy. He's the man. His name's Dan Graham. And Dan Graham and I have been kind of competitive and friends our whole lives. And he watched what we were doing in November Project and wanted to start one, but wasn't going to let his little brother, you know, kind of have a good idea. So he called Bojan, my co-founder, my buddy from college, and said, don't tell Brogan that I'm calling you. I want to set this up. And at that time, my brother was still living in our hometown in Madison, Wisconsin. And so he started a tribe there in January 2013. So like, it was, I mean, it was just a, they

• 51:15Speaker 01

  had a great story, starting story, where on the top of Bascom Hill in downtown Madison, right there on the University of Wisconsin campus overlooking the lake, it was him and three gals just standing there in the snow. And they ran some hills and they went and got coffee. And they did it next weekend. So, so but the first four cities-

• 51:33Rich Roll?

  So how, how did you take that news, though, when you found out?

• 51:36Speaker 01

  It was great. It was great. There, you know, he's a big loud dude, charismatic fellow. I just think that there's some intricacies to families where it's like, I was very amused. I was really psyched because I couldn't imagine a better leader. And I, I almost knew immediate success would come from it for the November Project Madison Tribe, for November Project as now, something that lived outside of Boston. And I loved having my hometown involved. And so, yeah, that was, that was how, that was how that started. And plus, you know, Bojan and I are kind of unlikely friends from Northeastern Rowing. I had some really close friends and Bojan was a good friend. But I, you know, without November Project, we wouldn't be this tight. And so the fact that he and my brother were connecting on

• 52:21Speaker 01

  this and kind of talking behind my back was great. A friend of ours from the track team ended up moving to San Francisco, and she wanted to start a tribe out here. And we were like, no, just, you know, that's not- You're not up to it. Like, just do something else. You're not really upbeat enough. You're kind of cynical, Laura.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  And eventually she just went ahead and did it. And this is back before the pledge. Yeah, kind of like I'm doing it. And we kind of like kept her and kept in contact and she's a powerhouse as well. And the dude from the Bruins, Andrew, when he got switched over to the Edmonton Oilers, his hometown, he brought November Project with. So the first four cities kind of all have an epic start, but with people that, I mean, you could drop them out of a helicopter into any city in the world and they would start a community. I mean, these are some really tough, fun, funny, weird looking people.

• 53:13Rich Roll?

  And now you have, what, like 30 cities?

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we're, so we have 33 different cities. We call them tribes. These are 33 tribes and yeah, the breakdown is we have 21 in the States. We have seven in Canada, four in Europe, and we have one in Hong Kong. So it's crazy. It is, it is crazy. It's inspiring. It's, um, it's something I'm really proud to be a part of. I'm a member of November Project San Diego, but I get to have this really cool backstory of being.

• 53:41Rich Roll?

  So you're not, you're not even the leader where you live?

• 53:43Speaker 01

  No, no, I, I attend. There's that one part of Fight Club where Tyler Durden just like kind of walks in the back row and just, you know, you, no one really knows who, who the hell that guy is, kind of.

• 53:54Rich Roll?

  Because it's scaled past his, his, his personality.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 53:58Rich Roll?

  That's the idea.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And well, and you know, like, I, you know, the leader's there, Ashley, she's been there forever and, and, um, she knows San Diego, how to do San Diego. And you know, she's got to do, right. Her, her tribe is built around her. So I, I wouldn't really even be able to lead that tribe. So, it's very fun for me on Mondays and Wednesdays to be able to go to the San Diego tribe and just be a member. That's it.

• 54:19Rich Roll?

  How come, why'd you, why'd you move to San Diego? Why didn't you stay in Boston?

• 54:23Speaker 01

  So at the end of 2014, when Boyne and I built this partnership with The North Face, uh, for the first time, my wife Goldie and I were able to kind of just work mobily. She has a sister that lives in North Pacific Beach, who had just had a kid, a baby and, We had talked about moving to California on our very first date and it was kind of like, okay, we could do this right now. Why not? And she had this huge yoga following and NP was like getting really big at the time and we kind of looked at each other and it was a little bit of like, let's do it. The irony is that she wanted to move way more than I did. And I was kind of like, oh, we could stay in Boston. And she was so driven. And then right when we got to San Diego, I was psyched and she just kept talking about how much she missed it.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  So two years and a month later, two years and three months later, we're we're totally into it. We're totally San Diegans. I've got a giant 10 foot surfboard and I think I'm totally rad, totally gnar, brah.

• 55:22Rich Roll?

  You must get a bunch of shit from your friends in Boston now.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Well, one of our pillars is being weatherproof, right? So like, we built this army all around the world of weatherproof and then I skate off to San Diego. So I'm, I'm that guy.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  But I think it also provides an interesting perspective because folks in the Boston tribe, I think are very Boston centric. It is where it started and it's hard to relate to an SF, San Francisco vibe or what they're doing in Los Angeles or what they're, these temperate climates, Phoenix, New Orleans, like they're, they're no less.

• 55:57Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, November project was born out of the grit of like, getting up on a February morning when it's just the worst, right? And showing up and then knowing that there's going to be some epic photos on Facebook of like this crazy workout that you did in the snow and the slugs.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, and then someone, someone will always say, you know, what was your favorite workout of all time? And it's like, for us, it was like the really epic, like disastrous weather, you know, Hurricane Sandy, when we did it in Boston.

• 56:21Rich Roll?

  Workouts are you doing in the middle of a hurricane?

• 56:23Speaker 01

  You know, I think, I think that was like a Monday or something where we like, we all ran to the same, I think we were like near the Northeastern Boathouse, Charles River. And we just did like seven minutes of burpees and then we all ran home in the mud. And so like you're running sideways through these like torrential downpour winds and then you meet up with this pack of people. Like no one even has lights on. Everyone's just like, looks like they just stepped out of the pool or the river right there and. I mean, you talk about like a really creepy moment of like, you guys ready? Everyone looks at their watches, seven minutes of burpees in the mud and then you all laugh and run away. I mean, epic times.

• 56:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like if it's a flash mob, right?

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Flash mob for sure. I think, I think we said that a lot more back in the day, flash mob. Uh, cause the Mondays really are, the Mondays in Boston really are, we call them a destination deck where you go somewhere. And then you do like, it's not a full 40 minute workout. It's like some core or some, you know, something funky for 15 minutes and then you run home. So sometimes when we have like sound complaint, noise complaints, whatever, you know, security guard will come by or a cranky neighbor will just say like, look, we're never coming back here again. We were really sorry. And we never repeat locations. So.

• 57:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's gotta become a thing when you start getting, you know, 500, 600,000 people showing up. You can't just like descend on some area like it's gotta cause problems for you, right?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  And that, and that goes back to the leaders. Their creativity of being like, okay, this venue is dope, but it'll only be really good for 80 or a hundred. So let's save that for a downpour rain day or like a below zero morning or something. But you know, like just continue with the Boston example, DC is the same way. Edmonton is the same way where Wednesdays are the biggest. No one's left town yet for the wedding. No one's, you know, complications with their flight and there's not back yet Monday. Wednesday is the anchor. You live in your city on a Wednesday morning. They're not hungover, right? And so our Wednesday in almost every single city is the biggest turnout. And then from there, our leaders get to kind of decide eventually when they add a Friday or a Monday. San Diego's Monday, Wednesday, uh, Milwaukee's Wednesday, Friday, you know, so

• 58:22Speaker 01

  all of us share a sunrise around the world in these 33 cities on Wednesdays.

• 58:28Rich Roll?

  And it's cool. Like if you're traveling and there's a November project, wherever you're going, you can always like tap into that community.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Right, right. I mean, that to me, that's the coolest to walk up to a pack of people that you've never seen before in a city that you do not know, but because you're wearing the spray paint, you know, it's almost like.

• 58:44Rich Roll?

  Explain the spray paint.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  All right. So we call it grassroots gear. So if you search hashtag grassroots gear.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  I've been spray painting shirts and painting shirts for like my whole life. And so this was just another thing that when Boy and I were doing the stadium, I showed up with some shirts and I was like, made these. Uh, they're made out of children's letters from like the, like the school supplies aisle at CVS.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  And you know, the big push in Boston back in the first summer that we had, we, we had a day that we were going to paint shirts and then we're going to ruin the stencils and never do it again. It's gonna be so like core and um, we ended up seeing people in the six and a half other days of the week. Kind of running around the river and wearing it. It became this kind of like, oh, I know that guy. Or even if you don't know him, it's like, oh, they're part of the family and like, um.

• 59:31Rich Roll?

  It's another little like Fight Club.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Oh, totally. And so, so um, it becomes this thing where you can't like the whole idea of like, oh yeah, I've been going to November Project forever. Do you mind if we paint one of these shirts for my mom? She lives in Arkansas. Well, unfortunately your mom's gonna have to earn her paint at a workout at some point when she's visiting. So um, some of the bigger tribes, they'll do it like once a month. They paint some of the smaller tribes will do it every workout. Um, but it's definitely like the, one of the first stages of kind of rites of passage.

• 59:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's like getting your, it's like getting branded.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  To jumped in, you're getting jumped in and then, you know, my favorite stories are like someone from the Phoenix tribe and someone from the New York tribe. They literally pass each other in the Grand Canyon and the floor of the Grand Canyon going opposite directions, both wearing November Project grassroots gear and they stop and take a photo. Or, you know, we, we keep it always black across the chest. Um, never sideways, never like a small stencil for someone who's littler. It's just the same.

• 1:00:24Rich Roll?

  The stencil's always the same. So where do you get the stencil so that you know you're getting the official?

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Rich, I would, I would love to.

• 1:00:30Rich Roll?

  Is this like a secret?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  I would love to tell you, but I would, I'd, I mean, this is where I'd have to kill you. I gotta cut you out. At some point I can't tell you everything.

• 1:00:36Rich Roll?

  Well, this is all playing into this uh, idea that this, this thing is just one big crazy cult. So how do you respond to like the cult allegation?

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Like, no, I'd like to go like, no comment. Uh, you know, I think that, I think that people kind of like to write it off as that. Cause like our, our members are a little too upbeat. Like they are a little bit too talkative about it and they are going to recruit you until you go.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  It's, it's just going to make people's lives better rather than like an actual cult that kind of drains you and disconnects you.

• 1:01:06Rich Roll?

  But every cult tells you it's going to make your life better.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Well, have you been to a workout yet?

• 1:01:11Rich Roll?

  I haven't.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:01:13Rich Roll?

  I can't, I can't believe I'm having this conversation with you when I haven't done it. I feel bad.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  I know, but you did your homework.

• 1:01:18Rich Roll?

  Have to do it.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  You did your homework.

• 1:01:20Rich Roll?

  But it's, you know, it's funny with me because, you know, I travel a lot and people will tweet me and say, oh, you gotta, you should come and do the November project. You know, like I've gotten invited several times to show up and for whatever reason, like I haven't gone and it's, you know, it's like, I have my own training product. And oh, that doesn't like really work with what I'm doing.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  No, I follow your Instagram stories. Yeah, I got, I got.

• 1:01:39Rich Roll?

  And I'm kind of a lone wolf with my training, but like, I'm trying to change that because I want to do it for the joy.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:45Rich Roll?

  And that's about community.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:47Rich Roll?

  And so I'm, I'm more open to doing this kind of stuff now than I have been in the past. So I definitely want to check it out.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  From, from what I know, and this is now, now I'm going to diagnose this problem.

• 1:01:56Rich Roll?

  I gotta get a T-shirt. I need some.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  I know. I'd love to give you, I'd love to leave this one, but I can't, uh, you haven't earned it yet. Uh, so I would say you as an athlete, from what I know, would love November project for the connection and to remind yourself to play, to remind yourself to have fun. You don't, you're not a guy who needs like help with your workouts.

• 1:02:15Rich Roll?

  No, I don't.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  You don't need to lose weight. You don't.

• 1:02:16Rich Roll?

  I need to take it less seriously.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. And so one of my favorite dudes, um, who's joined this movement is a two 25 marathon guy. And he, his name's Ian Nurse, and he's super serious about running and, uh, he's like finished 70th in the Boston Marathon. He's just, he's a stud. And, um, he goes to NP as a place to connect and as a place to kind of like just have a fun run and still get some hills in. So it's not a total wash, you know, but you know, like Sasha in San Francisco, he doesn't need November project. But I think he needs to kind of like lighten up a little bit here on, cause running, I think at its core, at least it should be fun.

• 1:02:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  So, um, he's a cutthroat elite and he's a true elite, you know, and, um, Yeah, he's a great example. He's for sure. He's one of my favorite dudes in that tribe.

• 1:03:06Rich Roll?

  And in the years of doing this and all the people that you've seen kind of come into November Project and seen, you know, lives transformed, like, what have you learned about human behavior or, you know, what's required for somebody to actually change their

• 1:03:23Rich Roll?

  their habits, right? Because we see it all the time, like, oh, you join the gym, or you go on a diet, and these things just don't last. They don't stick with people, right? So how do you get people to actually, you know, create a lasting or permanent shift in how they live their lives?

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that that piece is something that I'd love to take credit for, but I think the tribe itself is to credit.

• 1:03:46Rich Roll?

  I'm not, I'm not asking you to take credit for it. I'm more saying, like, what's your observation? Because you're, you've seen thousands of people and you're traveling to all the tribes and, you know, you have your own tribe, like, what have you taken note of that maybe is not necessarily just obvious?

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that a few really positive, supportive words go a long way. And I think when it comes to recruiting someone, saying the right kind of string of words to get them to show up and try, but then, once they're there, that's an important moment. Whether it comes to the leader or someone else remembering their name, it's, it always blows my mind that, like, encouraging someone to finish their workout strong, or, or to turn to somebody and give, give a stranger a hug, like, those moments of, like, just a couple of little things that are said or that are done can change someone's outlook. And you never know what kind of day people are having, you know? What kind of situation they're leaving at home, or what's kind of situation they're going to at work? If they have a job, or what they do, where they went to school, none of that matters. So

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  I'm always inspired to see how people, in a lot of cases, can barely get there, but then a couple of key moments will hook them. You know, our mutual homeboy, you know, Caleb, is a great example. Like, he set out.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  And I don't care how this sounds, but he set out for a job. He came to November Project to write an article for a running magazine. Done.

• 1:05:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  He was ready to piece out before he even got there. And because of his identity as a runner, because of how he likes to train and didn't even know kind of the environment that he might gravitate towards, plus some of the things that were going on in his life, like it was the perfect storm where a couple of key things were said by a couple of key people and he was hooked. Caleb's one of the most regular dudes there. Obviously helped us build the November Project book, but like, I mean, he might be as core member as anybody. And those, those really small moments I think are huge. And I think that that plays outside of NP too.

• 1:05:49Rich Roll?

  Well, it drills down to connection, you know, connection, community, accountability, you know, the creativity and fun that comes with it. And, and the, you know, on the accountability piece, that really works both ways. It's like you have the welcome mat, everybody feels awesome, you know, that everybody's cheering and hugging and all that kind of stuff. But you also have that thing, like if people say they're going to show up and they don't show up, you sort of lambast them publicly.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  The we missed you.

• 1:06:15Rich Roll?

  You know, the, the negative side of accountability, which is very effective.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:20Rich Roll?

  And it's like, you're doing it in fun, obviously, but like, no one wants to be on that board.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Right. So, so I gotta, I had this conversation earlier today, this piece, and I need all the listeners to understand that the we missed you page is not used on new people. So if you're thinking about coming and then you don't come, like, we're not shaming people back to their beds. It's basically for people that have become a part of the community at a certain point. And they promised their friend, or they promised their leader, or they promised somebody that they'll be there up and down, swore you up and down. I mean, these generations that are alive on this planet right now, pretty much invented how to be flaky. Like, that's our thing. We made that. Congrats, you know? So to fight back against that, the we missed you page is if someone tells you in, in text or word of

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  mouth, I'll be there. And they say that's a verbal, it's a verbal commitment. And then they break that.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Whoever they broke the verbal to usually brings that information to one of the leaders. And they write a we missed you page. It's essentially a wall of shame. And we usually harvest photos off of their Facebook and then basically talk about how they were for sure coming, but then they were at a work thing. And then like, the beers were free, so they stayed for one more. And then like, oh, my alarm didn't go off.

• 1:07:39Rich Roll?

  You just make it all up? Or is that the excuse that they give you?

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  No, no, no. So we usually use the person who reported it. So the person who they blew off, their friend will bring us the information. So like the we missed you, it's really common to see like a screen capture.

• 1:07:50Rich Roll?

  It's very like Gestapo.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Right. Of all of the back and forth texts of like, yeah, I'll be there. Yeah. Cool. Is that a verbal? Yeah, cool. Oh, I slept in. Oh, my alarm, right? And so then I think a common thread through almost all the we miss you posts is at the end, it's some sort of rounded off corner of here's the deal. We just, we were sad that you broke our heart. Our workouts are better when you're there, Steve. We missed you. Right? And so it's always some kind of like a little bit of a nicer ending.

• 1:08:20Rich Roll?

  So how do you?

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  So, so, so we feel like, so, so, so why do we do that? So then we think that next time Steve is saying he's going to go to a workout, that might be the very last thing that he considers when he goes to bed. Ooh, I don't want to be on that. We missed you.

• 1:08:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. That's what I'm saying about the negative side of accountability. It's like, yeah, you don't want to, I'm not going to let that happen to me.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:37Rich Roll?

  You know, I'm going to show up no matter what.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  But no fear, if you're new out there, no fear.

• 1:08:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:51Rich Roll?

  So dude, how do you, like, if this whole thing is free, like, how do you make a living? Like, how does this work? Like, is that where North Face comes in?

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So my co-founder and I had the opportunity to talk to a couple of key brands at the end of 2014 about partnering for a number of really important reasons. Uh, one, we felt like we were managing a movement of 16, 17 cities and we wanted to focus on it. We thought that this could be our job, something that we should be focusing all of our energy on. Um, and we also had this idea that once a year, we would bring everyone together, all of the leaders. We called the summit. It would almost have like a Grateful Dead vibe of like, I'm not a leader, but I gotta go. It's like almost your pilgrimage each year, you know?

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  We thought it would be pretty cool to outfit all of our leaders with gear as a like as a thank you of some sort. And and then the last piece was that this dream that Bojan and I had of being able to jump on planes and go see this and work with leaders and talk about leadership. And not that we have all the answers, but what worked in Boston, how they're doing it in Seattle, you know, like what makes sense up there in Winnipeg and and be able to, you know, kind of travel with these stories and and make tribes even better. So at the end of 2014, both he and I left our jobs and we formed a partner.

• 1:10:09Rich Roll?

  What were you doing before that?

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  I was working on the marketing team at New Balance and that was an awesome job. Great group of people and Bojan was, I think he was freelancing at that point and walking his dog a lot. And he was being a good husband, I mean, for sure.

• 1:10:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's got a, he has a daughter too, right?

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  And grooming his beard. He didn't have a daughter at that point. So he just focused on his beard, dog, wife, I think in that order, or wife, anyway. And

• 1:10:40Rich Roll?

  Some kind of order.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Whatever, remains unsure. But so, yes, it was January 1st, 2015 is when it kicked off. And you know, it's funny, being from Wisconsin, growing up in snow sports, like, I always had a dream of like having like North Face jackets. I thought it was so cool, you know, and high end and like kind of on top of ever is kind of a, you know, watching, you know, some of these pro skiers jump off of cliffs and being wearing North Face. So I think that November Project depends on kind of what lens you want to look at it. Is this a running story? Is this a training story? Is this a weight loss story? Is this a community story? Well, we didn't really have to stretch very far with our friends at the North Face, never

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  stop exploring. We're going to be outside playing rain or shine. I mean, that's what they do best. And so that partnership was so simple. It formed around their training platform called Mountain Athletics, which was kicking off PM workouts in certain cities around the world. But maybe more importantly, their series of trail racing events that happen all around North America.

• 1:11:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Which we were actually using at the time as rally points for some of our tribes. So if there's one just outside of Madison, the tribes from Milwaukee, Madison, Minneapolis, and Chicago would all go there and kind of have like a miniature.

• 1:11:55Rich Roll?

  And not everyone's running in ultra, right? You're doing relays and like

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:12:00Rich Roll?

  and stuff like that.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  And you know, even before November Project started, I was a fan of these races because There's a marathon relay on Saturday. There's also a 50K and a 50 miler. The next day is a half marathon, 5K, 10K. So it's like, and they're always within certain proximity of cities. So it's like trail for city folk that want to try trail. But it's not soft, you know, 50 miles legit. And so you've seen a lot of our community start with the marathon relay on a team of four and then sign up for the next one, team of two. Sign up for their first all true, you know, like it's been a cool to see.

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  Happen.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  It happened to the best of us, right?

• 1:12:36Rich Roll?

  Either they clock out and they're done.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Right, this is dumb.

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  All in for the next one.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:12:40Rich Roll?

  Well, that's cool. I mean, it's a perfect, you know, it's obviously the perfect company for your message and what you guys are doing.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:12:47Rich Roll?

  And they're, I mean, they've done a really amazing job of casting a wide net and working with really interesting athletes.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Rich Roll?

  You know, we were talking before the podcast, I mean, I've had the opportunity to talk to a bunch of people that are on that team.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Rich Roll?

  We've got Conrad Anker, Dean Carnazis, Timothy Olson.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03Rich Roll?

  And then you did, didn't they have like a summit for their own athletes, right?

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Athletes summit.

• 1:13:06Rich Roll?

  Wim Hof was there.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Right, Wim.

• 1:13:08Rich Roll?

  I saw a picture of you, I think it was you and Wim in the ice bath or something like that.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  So Wim was kind of like doing like some breathing, like karate chops over our heads, but I was in ice bath with, with Timmy Olson. And, uh, and all of the athletes were either preparing to like strip down to jump in. Or they were doing the Wim Hof, kind of like, uh, shake it out, breathing, kind of focused thing. Wim Hof, I mean, Wim Hof is awesome. I, you know, partly insane and mostly genius. I think he's, I think he's the man.

• 1:13:39Rich Roll?

  He's like, I mean, talk about a guy who's done a great job of telling his story. Like that guy's blown up.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:13:44Rich Roll?

  Nobody heard of that guy like a year and a half ago.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:13:47Rich Roll?

  Now he's everywhere.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  No, it's funny. I got back from the summit and I was like, I was trying to tell Goldie, I was like, you know, this Wim Hof guy, we did this like ice bath thing. Everyone jumped in except Bojan. But, you know, she's kind of like, you know, I don't really, I don't really heard of him, whatever. I think she started following him on Instagram. And then like two months later, very recently, she was doing the Wim Hof. Like ice shower challenge, which is like, you start for the first week with like 10 seconds or 15 seconds of like the end of your shower, you just flip it to cold.

• 1:14:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  And just like take it to the face or chest or something.

• 1:14:16Rich Roll?

  He's changed a lot of lives. I just got an email from a buddy of mine, Reese, who lives in San Diego, actually.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  No way.

• 1:14:22Rich Roll?

  So impacted by WIM, he went on his retreat in Poland.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14:25Rich Roll?

  And climbed some mountain in his shorts and did the whole thing. And he's like, you know, basically changed his life. You know, it's amazing.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  See, I'm, I'm, I'm a WIM, WIM supporter. And this homie of yours in San Diego can fall into a community if he ever wants to in Balboa Park.

• 1:14:40Rich Roll?

  I heard there's something going on down there.

• 1:14:41Speaker 01

  Special shout out. 6:29 a.m. Uh, yeah.

• 1:14:46Rich Roll?

  So tell me, ta-talk me through the typical November Project workout? Or is it just different every day and it just morphs with whatever the weather is in the location?

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  Uh, the latter, for sure. Typical, I think you can plan on, uh, what starts with, uh, the group kind of surrounding their leader. Their leader is usually waiting for everyone's attention. There's a few announcements or none. Um, there's usually what we call a bounce, where everyone very tight in a pack starts popping around like popcorn. No form, no real point, except just get the vibes moving and get your bodies moving. Um, usually then the leader will shut it down and say, "Good morning." And everyone stops moving and it, and similar to some sort of creepy fitness call, everyone yells back, "Good morning." And then they say, "Y'all good?" Or, "Are you good?" And the proper response, even if you're tired, or you just got laid off, or you slept on the couch,

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  or you're, you have the flu, the proper response is, "F yeah." Can we curse on you?

• 1:15:42Rich Roll?

  Say whatever you want.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  So the, the proper response is, "Fuck yeah." Now, when that's spread to Wisconsin, they don't, they're, they're not, that's a little crass, that language. So in Milwaukee, "Good morning. Good morning. Y'all good?" "Ahh, yeah." There's some kind of a warm-up, or you turn to somebody you don't know and give them a big bear hug, or both. And then the workout is said to be between 20 and 40 minutes long of a circuit, a circuit that is, usually involves running, or could be running heavy. We just like to kind of disguise it. There's body weight exercises, burpees, whatever. Some leaders will use benches and stairs and get you jumping and get you moving and climbing.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Others will be more focused on the ground or just focus on running. Depends on the background of the leaders. The two guys that created the tribe in New York City are pure running. Paul and John.

• 1:16:36Rich Roll?

  Where do they do it in New York City?

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  So they do it in the Upper East Side, which is near, right outside of Gracie Mansion. And it's kind of an unheard of location. People are always kind of like, why there? And that's another good example of like, who are Boy and I to step in and be like, you need to move the location. It's working. So anyone that kind of says it should be here or there, it's like, no, no, we're doing it. And, uh, and there's actually a tribe right now pledging in Brooklyn. So it's the first city to have two in the same city. And they're at Fort Green Park or something. They're still pledging, so we're not really sure they're up to this.

• 1:17:09Rich Roll?

  Pledging.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Pledging, little pledges.

• 1:17:11Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So it's got like a fraternity over town.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  I don't like that. And I actually used to make fun of frats in college. We all did, but then like, I was part of the rowing team.

• 1:17:20Rich Roll?

  But yeah, you're like, you're a rower, you're a jock dude.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  It's way worse.

• 1:17:23Rich Roll?

  You look like you were in a frat.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  I'll take that as a weird.

• 1:17:29Rich Roll?

  Well, no, like maybe, maybe a little too many tattoos for a typical frat guy. But you were like, you were like a drama major, right?

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  How do you know that? You read the book.

• 1:17:37Rich Roll?

  Uh, and I talked to Caleb.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I try and hide that. I was a business major.

• 1:17:42Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were?

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  No, I was a branding major.

• 1:17:44Rich Roll?

  But you did drama?

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  No, I was actually a theater major.

• 1:17:46Rich Roll?

  You were theater, right? So that's interesting.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  That is interesting.

• 1:17:50Rich Roll?

  Theater and jock.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Theater and jock.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  Usually don't go together.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  I started rowing and I started theater at the same time in my life, which was my senior year in high school. And acting was super fun and easy. How, how am I going to be in front, speaking in front of people? Well, for me, I came from a house full of storytellers and loud people. And people that just naturally have like some timing and some nonsense rattling around in their brain. So the presentational piece was easy for acting.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  And rowing was something I just wanted to check off to make sure I didn't like, so that I wouldn't regret it. And both of them at the same time kind of started this really like interesting race to the end of my senior year. Where I was in plays and I was in things and I was in design classes, but I was also a part of this really, really weird other cult. I mean, theater is a total cult. Rowing, which is like some of these really dorky kids that figured out how to move boats and all became 18 and grew shoulders and like they're, they're, they're flying out there on Lake Mendota. But it also came with opportunity. So like for the first time I was really jazzed about school because it had some entertainment value and it had something I was really good at. Really bad student in high school, not because I didn't really apply myself because I was looking at troublemaking and stuff like that. So here I am as a senior trying to figure out what I'm doing for college in a really like a big college town where

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  everyone's either going to Wisconsin or better. And I pulled a couple of good rowing scores and I was able to go to some schools because of athletics.

• 1:19:12Rich Roll?

  So rowing opened the door.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  So rowing opened the door. And then when you get there, you know, it's, it's one of these life questions of like, where are you going to college? And then right when you get there, they're like, what's your major? And then right when you major is like, when you graduate? So what's your major? I was like, I'm barely here. I had no leg to stand on as a, as a student and I was only rowing for a few months. So I was kind of a faker in both regard. And so I remember saying-

• 1:19:35Rich Roll?

  In your mind, I mean, you got in, you earned, you earned-

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  I was doing a lot of straight facing. I was doing a lot of straight. So when it came time to study something, I thought, I said, you know, if I do something that bores me or is agonizing or is even unfun, I'm not gonna make it.

• 1:19:48Rich Roll?

  You gotta move your body.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  I gotta move-

• 1:19:50Rich Roll?

  You're like an ADD, ADHD, like-

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Totally, totally.

• 1:19:53Rich Roll?

  Getting in trouble because you can't sit still, right?

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. So-

• 1:19:57Rich Roll?

  I mean, November project is like a manifestation of your inability to sit in a chair. You've been, you've been sitting in this chair for a while now. Are you all right?

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Is this over yet? Yeah. So, so to me, to make that decision, I think a lot of people at a school like Northeastern where you're supposed to study business or engineering or nursing or PT, I was like theater guy. Well, in a lot of ways, it actually makes sense because I hopped from one weird group of outcasts to another. Rowing could be elite or they're just the biggest dorks. And, and theater kids are either total artists and ahead of their time, or they're the biggest dorks. And so it was a really interesting trip through downtown Boston, college years of like these two worlds that never met that were really odd for me. I was still a ball player that was kind of looking for the parking lot fight after the race, but it just wasn't part of the culture. I was like Happy Gilmore. And-

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  And theater ended up being a really interesting place. And in such a small program, there were times where I was able to like, write scripts and direct that thing or hang the lights and design the stage for something that I was acting in. And I, at the time, was like, what am I doing? But I am really proud of it. And but it is, it is one of those fun facts where I definitely don't lead with that.

• 1:21:07Rich Roll?

  It's cool, I think, because I don't know about you, but I grew up thinking, well, you're an, you're either an athlete, or you're like, kind of an artist type.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:15Rich Roll?

  But like, you're not both.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:16Rich Roll?

  Certainly, nobody's both. Like, you kind of got to pick. And I'm, I was somebody who always, like, I love, you know, I love swimming, and I like triathlon, running, all that kind of stuff. But I also have like, an artistic side. But I, at any given moment, I'm like, repressing one of, one, one of those sides. I never really believed that, like, both of those ideas could inhabit the same human being.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:36Rich Roll?

  And of course, they can, right? But I didn't realize that until later in life. But for you to be in college and kind of be pursuing both of those at the same time, I think it served you well in what you do. Because like, what I said before, I think is true, which is that November Project really is a crazy performance art experiment.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:21:53Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? So on some level, there are a lot, it's, it's theater.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:21:58Rich Roll?

  You have created this theater piece.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:22:00Rich Roll?

  That has, you know, gone, it's like, having a long run on Broadway, man.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:05Rich Roll?

  She keeps expanding to other cities.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  And you see these performances, you see these leaders who come alive. They're just, or more, just as, or more tired than the people in the tribe. But they put on this character. And for some, it's very natural, like my brother, myself, or Laura, whatever. But for some, it's a true character. Some of my favorite, like Nick Rod in Baltimore, he's a freedom fighter for the city of Baltimore. But when the bounce is about to start, he gets like, a different growl in his voice, and he becomes a different creature. And it's awesome to watch. And people are entertained. It's true entertainment. And even in some of the groups that swell to five, six, 700 people in DC, Boston, Edmonton, when the leaders want the attention of the mob, you can hear a pin drop. And

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  There's something really special creepy explosive about that. And um, yeah, I mean, you know, I remember being at Northeastern and being like, okay, I'm in a, actually, boy, I'll remember this. I was in a Shakespeare production of As You Like It. As You Like It is the famous piece that the world is simply a stage, right? That's that quote. But I had like these parts that were like so tiny, like I was like Charles the Wrestler, and I was like another guy that just held balloons and like I was barely in it. But I remember those those times of like total fearlessness in a boat, or total fearlessness socially, or totally total fearlessness, and being like freaked out about like screwing up my lines and stuff like that. And my brother said to me recently, just a month, a few weeks ago, really, it's

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  really important to keep yourself in a mode of being a little bit terrified, because if not, then you're not growing. And I know it's borderline cliche, but I had an opportunity to speak in San Francisco a few weeks ago, in front of 4,000 people.

• 1:23:49Rich Roll?

  I saw the photo.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  And I was freaked. Yeah.

• 1:23:52Rich Roll?

  Was that Facebook or what?

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the Facebook Global Summit. Total brag, not a subtle brag, it's full brag. And the woman who was organizing the event for the talent, you know, the few speakers, was a woman had worked with years before at Wanderlust, a yoga event, and she thought it'd be good kind of content and get people moving. And it was so much fun. But to go back to that point of like, presentation in theater was like, the moments before you step on stage with your little Ted Talk mic in front of 4,000 people, trying to pull a stunt to get them out of their chairs. You're gonna take your phone out and you're gonna give it to someone, and they're gonna babysit it for the next five minutes. And when you give them your phone, you're gonna say, I trust you. Like, these weird things. And could you do it in front of 4,000? I was freaked out. But I think I tapped back into

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  some of those things from theater, and some of those moments of like, stage presence and confidence. And yeah.

• 1:24:43Rich Roll?

  You, I want to get back to the 4,000 people speech in a second.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  What are you gonna be done with that?

• 1:24:50Rich Roll?

  No, no, no, I have some questions about that. But but first of all, I want to know,

• 1:24:56Rich Roll?

  you know, like, you.

• 1:24:59Rich Roll?

  Like, how do you think about where you're at right now? Like, going from being a guy who was like, basically coaching crew? Like, is this what you thought you would be doing? I can't imagine it is, right? Like, how could you possibly imagine this? But like, what was the plan? And like, how did this? Like, do you go, whoa, I can't believe this is going, this is happening?

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Almost every day. Almost every day. Almost every day. I think that, um, I think that, uh, Bojan and I were and still are extremely passionate about this movement. But we also, there was some timing things. And there was the right people in the right places and the right, you know, we, at the very beginning of this conversation, talking about the timing around social. And like, a lot of things just lined up for us. It helped that we had a bunch of really creative, really great athletes that were a part of the Boston Tribe, or they splintered off, or they saw what we were doing through social. And, um, you know, I, I wish I knew in my early twenties, definitely back in the days of like, figuring out your resume or your, um, your major and then what your resume would look like.

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  I wish I knew to be less stressed because the lesson that I'm learning these days as a dude in his thirties is like, those jobs you had and those things that you did, even though you weren't sure how they'd look on a resume or if they'd even make your resume or where you were going, they all add into who you become. And I know that's so like, um, I don't know, it's a big, it's a big picture thing to say, but, you know, I was a petty cab driver in Boston. I was a rowing coach. I, I had a, a website, a weekly man on the street gig where I was bothering Bostonians around town to answer the question of the week, do you have a minute? You're an interesting looking guy. And like,

• 1:26:40Rich Roll?

  You're perfect for that.

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  But I didn't know at the time that like,

• 1:26:43Rich Roll?

  You could, you could still, you could go back to that.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  I'm dying to, bold facers. I was, I, I, I didn't know that at the time I was in, for what we were going to end up building in Boston, uh, kind of just sharpening my teeth. And I will never take credit for building the Boston Tribe completely. Of course not. And the movement is built on the backs of many leaders. But, um, when it comes to public speaking, confidence, when it comes to the ability to speak to strangers, uh, to host a workout, to hold a moment, uh, and some of the timing things about presenting and, you know, From theater to tricycles to man on the street to coaching elite rower dudes on the Charles River. It's all kind of, that's who I am.

• 1:27:27Rich Roll?

  What do you, if you had to articulate, if you had to say what your gift is, like, what is your, your strength or your gift?

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  Um, I think my gift is, um,

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  I think my gift is bringing people together. And I think that that could mean, uh, six people in a booth at a bar and none of them know each other except me. I think I can make that pretty fun, pretty quick.

• 1:27:51Rich Roll?

  Well, that gift dovetails pretty nicely into November project.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:27:54Rich Roll?

  It's one of those things where when you look in the rearview mirror, everything like lines up perfectly and you're like, oh, of course this is happening. Like it all, it's all, you know, perfect, right?

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:28:04Rich Roll?

  And that's like, I look back at my life and it looks that way as well. But I know when you're in the midst of it, it's chaos and confusion.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:28:11Rich Roll?

  You would never think that it would amount to what it becomes, right?

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, I have a cousin, he's in his twenties right now and he's dealing with like some, a job he hates and kind of like not sure if he's using his degree as an architect the right way and he's stressed. You know, hey Kev, it's your cousin BG. How long have you had this job? Your dad told me you're kind of in a tough spot. Well, he's been there for two months, you know, and I think we forget sometimes you just gotta trudge. Sometimes you trudge and that stuff though, those miles are not discounted. They're not junk miles. I do not believe in junk miles in, in, in life, right? I mean, it all goes into it. My worst, my worst job I ever had was in South Florida. I moved from Boston for one year to manage a petty cab company. My buddy, who technically at that time became my boss, was thinking about buying

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  a pre-existing company that had like four locations, trucks and trailers, 200 dudes. It was like the wild west down there. And my job was to go down, assess culture, tighten the screws, make a little more money. And then maybe a year later, my buddy would buy the company. I had free housing. I also had to manage a bunk house for dudes from New York that came down. It was like every different kind of shady. And, uh, I hated most days. And how do you finesse and manage people that are, uh, you know, independent contractors? They, they rent the bike from me. That's pretty much where it ends. How do you, how do you position yourself? How do you manage? How do you ask people for things that don't, you know, there's no real working relationship back and forth? How do you guide culture? How do you decide what's important and let go of all else?

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  And how do you, I mean, how do you get rid of people that aren't doing it right? And some of those things that I pulled from that time, which was like a total headache, are some important lessons that I still use when it comes to.

• 1:29:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's beautifully put and, and super relevant in a culture in which, you know, especially on the internet, like people will just tell you, follow your passion and you know, do all this sort of thing. And it's like, it's very flip, flip, you know what I mean? Like, and, and there is value in the trudge and that job that you're stuck in that you hate. You don't, you don't have the, uh, you know, global view or objectivity when you're in it to understand how that's gonna fit contextually into what you ultimately end up doing later. And you real, you only realize in retrospect, like, oh, wow, what I learned, you know, the pedicab thing actually was crucial.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  Right, totally. Yeah. I mean, like I told my cousin, it was, it was like, but, but you don't have to have that job forever. I don't have to live in Southern Florida to like, but you do have.

• 1:30:39Rich Roll?

  When is the learning curve like?

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  And when is the experience could have a bookend? When could it be complete? And I think for him, the trudging lesson is important. You don't get to be in a job in your twenties that you don't like for two months and then move on and have it not make your resume and have no trudging miles. Like, I don't think, I think you gotta be there for your six or one year so you can put it somewhere on resume, at least for now.

• 1:31:00Rich Roll?

  But also having enough of a relationship with yourself to understand what it is that gets you excited and having the, you know, the courage to continue to pursue that.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:31:09Rich Roll?

  Maybe not in a linear way, but to always have that as like your propulsion.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, his, his whole thing was like, no one was, he'd walk into the office and he was in charge of a bunch of dudes that like, wouldn't even say hello to him. And I was like, buy him donuts, make it a game, make it a contest, like.

• 1:31:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's an opportunity to learn management skills and people skills.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Totally. And just figure it out.

• 1:31:29Rich Roll?

  Win that over.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Cause it's not gonna get worse. I mean, that's, they're probably not, they're not gonna say how, like, they're not gonna acknowledge you less, right? So anyway, I just, I, I, um, I think some of those things are really important to like, kind of where, what forms us, you know?

• 1:31:44Rich Roll?

  All right. So when you get up in front of 4,000 people, or when you get up in front of any group of people, like what is, you know, what do you talk about? Like, what is your presentation all about?

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Right. Well, luckily, luckily, over the years, I've been side by side with Boyn and, and we've.

• 1:31:58Rich Roll?

  I saw the TED Talk.

• 1:31:59Speaker 01

  We've, TEDx.

• 1:32:00Rich Roll?

  Oh, the TED.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  TEDx.

• 1:32:01Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  The X means that like.

• 1:32:03Rich Roll?

  You can still say it's a TED Talk.

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  No, no, cause TEDx means that like, you, you know, you're like, you're kind of JV.

• 1:32:10Rich Roll?

  You guys, it was, that was almost like a musical performance.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  It started with body surfing.

• 1:32:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  Right. So TEDx, uh, so, but I've been lucky to have him by my side. So he's a real organizational, like, like a rational thinker and I'm an ideas guy. And I'm like, let's do, you know, whatever. So we've fallen into a lot of like, how much of the history, a lot of what we talked about in this conversation today, um, how much of the history is relevant? How much do people need to hear about it? And I think we've, we've had some okay presentations, he and I, where we probably spent too much time talking about like, and then we were in nine cities and then 10. Like, so I, I think that, uh, these days I give more of a gist of what NP is, November Project. And then I try

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  and find a way to get people as well-rounded of an education as they can, and then get them to move. And so the big challenge with going up to San Francisco to speak at Facebook was the woman who had brought November brought me there was basically saying, you know, you know, I've seen what you've done, where you get people out of there. It's just not going to go completely perfectly.

• 1:33:18Rich Roll?

  Why? Cause you got a bunch of code jockeys?

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  A little bit of that.

• 1:33:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  There's, it's, you know, it's a digital company. People are on their phones and, you know, but as we got closer and closer to the event, I recognized like, there's not a lot of like, these kind of headline speakers. It was like two before me and then I got off the stage and Zuckerberg got on. I mean, it was kind of like,

• 1:33:35Rich Roll?

  He was there.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  So it was like, you know, this, as this thing's really developed, it wasn't like breakout rooms. It was 4,000 humans with their lanyards on, ready to listen. And so, I, I mean, just giant screens and kind of like the, you know, the whole, the whole rigmarole. And, uh, for me, it was, they played a, a short video for two minutes. It was 12 minutes total. Two minutes of video. I step on, people clap, they're not sure why. I tell them five minutes of kind of why this matters. The theme there was, uh, real human connection and why it will always matter. And so in front of a bunch of folks that are really digitally savvy, to talk about how, you know, your, your phone skills are not real skills, but let's, let's talk about acknowledging one another. Five minutes flies by and then the, the back five minutes were getting people

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  out of their chairs. And that was where my challenge was to prove the organizer wrong. She's like, you know, 60% success rate, they'll, they'll stand up. And I didn't even tell her I was going to have people take out their phones and, and pass them around the room. Like, there were just parts of it where I was kind of just going to stick my, my neck out there and just kind of hope for it. So. On social media, there's this selfie photo that we took at the end of the presentation where all 4,000 people are on their feet. And it was a very nice crowning moment for me and for November Project and for this theme of this talk. Real human connection and why it will always matter. They were having fun, people's giant smiles on their faces, and every single person is without their phone because it's two feet away in

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  someone else's pocket. And they're screaming and they're smiling and they're doing something together. And even though it was

• 1:35:10Rich Roll?

  The photo's insane.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  A snap of a moment, yeah, it's crazy. It was a quick moment, but it was super fun. And they sat back down and they gave their phones back and it was really, really upbeat. And I think I just kind of shined the mirror on them at that point of like, we do this a lot. We do it in a lot of cities. Come join us or not, just point these smiles outward, you know?

• 1:35:32Rich Roll?

  Human connection.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Why it'll always matter, yeah.

• 1:35:35Rich Roll?

  And that's really, that's really what it's all about. That's what November Project is all about. And it is very interesting, the times that we're living through right now, because we feel like we're more connected than ever, and yet we're more disconnected. It's pithy to say that because a lot of people say that.

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:52Rich Roll?

  It really is true. You know, I live my life on social media. Like, you've built November Project on the shoulders of social media. These are tools that are important that we both utilize. And, you know, I have, at times, an unhealthy relationship

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:36:05Rich Roll?

  with it. You know what I mean? And I need to be shaken up and taken out of that.

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  Well, let me ask you, I know you're in charge of asking the questions, but let me ask you, as a digitally savvy fellow, what are, like, because you have wife and kids, like, are there moments in your day to day, week to week, where like, work ends and you really do put your phone down? Or do you have trouble with that? Or like,

• 1:36:27Rich Roll?

  I have trouble with it. I have trouble with it because, you know, work, where does work end? And, you know, the rest of my life begin?

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:36:35Rich Roll?

  It's all one thing. And that's, that's by design. That's the life that I wanted to create for myself.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:40Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of beauty in that. And I'm super happy doing what I'm doing. Because there really is no demarcation line between what I'm doing professionally and what I would do otherwise.

• 1:36:48Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:36:49Rich Roll?

  But at the same time, that requires a lot more consciousness around boundaries. So I do have to be, take a little bit more of a concerted effort to say, okay, I'm putting, you know, I'm putting this aside for now. I mean, with the kids, it's like, okay, when I'm with the kids, I'm with the kids.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:05Rich Roll?

  And you know, meals and all that kind of stuff, but it it tends to bleed in, right? So I I find myself in that battle. So I have to make rules around it.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:13Rich Roll?

  I have a morning routine. I don't check the stuff in the morning.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:37:16Rich Roll?

  Kind of stuff. And then I break those rules and

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:18Rich Roll?

  Whatever. It's like an ongoing

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:20Rich Roll?

  I certainly haven't mastered it.

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, this this morning was the first morning since the early 2000s that I woke up without a phone alarm. Coming off this digital detox, my wife and I went out yesterday and bought arm clocks.

• 1:37:33Rich Roll?

  I read like some, in getting ready for this, I read some articles on some blog. I don't know where it was. But it was like your morning routine. It was like, get up, drink coffee, immediately go online, check social media. What are people saying about November project on Twitter? What's going on on Facebook? And then go work out.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  So I would say, I would say that in in my household is not exactly a problem, but like, we're just below that line of like, you know, Goldie's brand is yoga and it lives heavy on social and all that she promotes and and obviously, you know, there's a lot for us to be touching our phones, but

• 1:38:03Rich Roll?

  And you can make that argument to yourself like, well, I need to do this.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 1:38:07Rich Roll?

  This is my career.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 1:38:08Rich Roll?

  Don't tell me to get off my phone.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 1:38:10Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:11Rich Roll?

  That takes you down a dark alley.

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, we, you know,

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  I I I'm not lying. We slept differently last night without those phones. I mean, they're in the kitchen now. And so like, just little things like

• 1:38:22Rich Roll?

  Are you gonna be able to maintain that?

• 1:38:23Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:38:25Rich Roll?

  That's great.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  Well, we'll talk in a week or so, right? I, you know, I think some of the things that we were doing last week with this digital detox of like, writing long, you know, long letters, handwritten letters. Well, like I, I was kind of doing that anyway. And my folks taught me about that. And like, you know, somebody's exercise, you know, it was not all for necessary, but we're outside of cell range and we didn't have anything. It was great. So

• 1:38:49Rich Roll?

  Did you have like a day of like jittery panic? Like, as you were like, sort of separation anxiety?

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  I will, I will say the funniest thing, I will say the funniest thing was like the the the insane amount of Instagrammable moments that like you just had to just keep, just looking at it, just keep looking at them. Right? So there's like, you know, an amazing bison head on the wall.

• 1:39:10Rich Roll?

  Did you have a can, were you allowed to take pictures with the camera?

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  So I had, I had my GoPro, but it beeped a lot and like I every time it would beep like almost like like, you know, drug fiends, everyone would like, look over and be like, well, what is that? You know?

• 1:39:23Rich Roll?

  So you can turn that beep off, you know?

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  But I kind of like it because it feels like I'm really doing something important. So then, but yeah, like we're carving blocks out on this giant lake to make the walls of an igloo. And like everyone's got these saws and we're like carving blocks. It's just like the most epic, like Instagrammable moment. And there we are like going back to like, turn that part of your brain off. Just keep making the igloo, right?

• 1:39:45Rich Roll?

  Be present.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So anyway, but I mean, so let me ask you this. How many times a day do you check Twitter?

• 1:39:52Rich Roll?

  Oh, way too many.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Like, do you think 50 times?

• 1:39:56Rich Roll?

  Um, I don't know. You know what? I'll this week I'll, I'll, I'll make a mental note of paying attention to it.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  Cause I

• 1:40:04Rich Roll?

  I've gone through periods where I take it off my phone.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:07Rich Roll?

  You know, and then I put it back on and

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:09Rich Roll?

  Whatever. I go up and down on that kind of stuff.

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  I um, I follow your Instagram stories pretty closely. And I would say, not that you need to hear this, but high quality work.

• 1:40:18Rich Roll?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  Really good.

• 1:40:20Rich Roll?

  I, I don't know if they're boring. You know, it's like, does anyone like, um, yeah, I'm here. I'm back at the pool. I'm doing the same thing again. I did the other day. Do you still want to see this?

• 1:40:27Speaker 01

  Totally, totally. I mean, I think it'd be funny if you like, if you had your pull buoy and like your workout and like you just pulled over to the side of the highway and just like put it down like, all right, guys, here's a workout today and just kind of like, you know, I mean, like really like a similar setting or like how, you know, anyway, so just know that when you post those, I'm watching.

• 1:40:45Rich Roll?

  All right, good.

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  I'm a huge fan.

• 1:40:46Rich Roll?

  I'll keep going. Well, yeah, I don't know where that then I'm like, are they too long? Like, I don't know, whatever. It's a, it's

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:53Rich Roll?

  I'm always trying to find the right balance because the thing is you can, you can become a prisoner of that. Like I always documenting everything you do. And then you're like, you're a slave to your own life. Like, I want to be present in what I'm doing. So where is that? But I also understand the value in sharing what I'm doing and, and I get good feedback. People are enjoying it. So I want to be able to contribute

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:41:12Rich Roll?

  to the community in that regard, but I have to find that fulcrum where it makes sense.

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  So what is your, what is, what's your personal favorite platform right now?

• 1:41:21Rich Roll?

  I think Instagram at the moment, you know, I'm loving the stories because then it just adds so much additional functionality to it. And that's where I get the most kind of feedback and engagement.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  I think Twitter, Twitter is my favorite thing to check to just see what's going on.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:34Rich Roll?

  But the engagement level is not what it was a couple of years ago.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:37Rich Roll?

  Like it's sort of, it seems like everyone's shouting and no one's listening.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:41Rich Roll?

  Everyone wants to be heard, but no one wants to listen to what anyone else is saying. So I, I go there for like news and to see what's going on culturally.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:48Rich Roll?

  And you know, I like to engage with people there as well. But I think, you know, I think Instagram right now is, is kind of where things are.

• 1:41:55Speaker 01

  And, and then, but this, and then this is the last question, I'll give your interview back over to you.

• 1:41:59Rich Roll?

  Definitely hijack this.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  But it's kind of part of my craft.

• 1:42:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  Is during the last few months, like we said earlier in this conversation, kind of working with leaders to remind ourselves that we're not really political. I did worry, are you a political cat on your social media or do you play that safe? Or are you using the platform to, I mean, like where, where are you?

• 1:42:20Rich Roll?

  I, I have made a concerted effort to not be overtly political. But it's caused me some consternation and I'm often thinking like, what is my responsibility to use the audience that I've built to express opinions that I think are important.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42:36Rich Roll?

  Or my opinions on issues that I think are important. And so I've dipped my toe in it and done a little bit of it, but I try not to make it too much about that. There are a lot of people that are speaking to that much better than I am, but I try to make it understood kind of where I stand.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:51Rich Roll?

  On everything without being a divisive voice, because I feel like I'm in a position where I have the ability to capture the interest and the attention of a wide spectrum of people.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:03Rich Roll?

  And I don't see the point in unnecessarily alienating them from perhaps some information that might benefit them irrespective of where they're coming from politically. At the same time, when I see things happening to the environment and other things, there's just certain things that I just cannot, you know, I just can't not say something. I just feel like I would be, I don't want to be 20 years from now, somebody that my daughter looks to and says, why didn't you say you had all these people following you? You could have said something. I don't want to be that guy either.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:34Rich Roll?

  So it's tricky, I think.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. So

• 1:43:39Rich Roll?

  Well, let me know when you figure that out.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll let you. Yeah, I'll email you. I'll tweet at you at some point.

• 1:43:42Rich Roll?

  Well, we gotta wrap this thing up.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  How do we do? Like generally, I think.

• 1:43:45Rich Roll?

  I think we're doing good. How do you feel?

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  I feel great. I feel great.

• 1:43:48Rich Roll?

  And all of the podcasts that you've done, this is the best one.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  It is the best one. It is. Well, because we have to go long, you know?

• 1:43:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  A lot of podcasts, you're not sure how long you're gonna go.

• 1:43:57Rich Roll?

  When you go long, you get to really know who somebody is. And again, that goes to authenticity. It's like for me, it's much more important to me to have a real exchange with you.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:09Rich Roll?

  Like, sit in front of you and like, we're gonna share something and whether some information, the information that comes out of that is secondary to being present for whatever happens.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:20Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  Well, this is awesome, man. I mean, it's a great experience. I'll come here. We'll just do this every week.

• 1:44:25Rich Roll?

  We can do it again, man.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:27Rich Roll?

  I know you were trying to wrangle me into like, you know, doing some surfing. Yeah, you're like, we're gonna do, we're gonna work out all day first.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude. But, but.

• 1:44:36Rich Roll?

  So I'm up for that. But like, also, I was like, yeah, the first time I, when I would do the podcast, though, I don't want to be all talked out by the time we do it. So I'm glad that we did it this way. And then next time I'll come down to San Diego and we'll have a good time.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't want to hold it up your head, but you definitely owe me. I mean, that's kind of why I'm here.

• 1:44:52Rich Roll?

  You came here to establish that there is a debt.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  Rich roll.

• 1:44:56Rich Roll?

  To be repaid.

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  Zero.

• 1:44:59Rich Roll?

  All right. So before we completely wrap this up, I always try to like, end it by leaving the listener with, you know, something that they can take away. And so there's a lot of people out there that that listen to the show that, you know, are perhaps stuck in a job that isn't doing it for them, or they just have trouble like getting out of bed in the morning, you know, let alone in the middle of, you know, Katrina, just trying to, you know, get a new habit, to, you know, get a new habit with staying power, like whether it's fitness or diet or whatever it is, like, how do you speak to that? And what are some things that you could kind of like, take us out with on that subject?

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, um, I think that, um, at November Project, we, we kind of shy away from, you know, the New Year's resolution or looking at, you know, getting motivated by getting a new gym membership or the new piece of clothing or a new fad diet. But like, you know what? I think we've been around the block enough times that whatever you get psyched about. Try a lot of different things and stay fired up. If you're not fired up by your gym, quit your gym today. If you're not fired up about your job, make a plan and get out of there or not, but make decisions instead of just sitting and complaining. I would also

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  like to say that November Project is open to everyone, but because of how fun it is and because of how outside it is and sometimes hardcore, it's not for everyone. But I would recommend, whether it's November Project or just the Buffalo Rap, just trying new stuff, you know, and I think a lot of people love the ethos of, yeah, like trying new things and meeting new people. And yet, a lot of us don't talk to people on the train or get to know anyone at the other table. And so I would urge people, whether they're younger, in their younger stages of life, or they're in their last stages of life, that these little ripple effects, whether you're the leaders in Boston, sending a thousand

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  athletes out into the city of Boston with smiles on their face, to create a true ripple effect on a Wednesday morning, or if it's something as small as just having a small conversation while someone pours you that cup of coffee. I think that those little moments really matter. And if people ever underestimate the ripple effect, just rewind to the beginning of this podcast and remember how this thing started. It wasn't a couple ideas, a couple of guys trying to build a brand on an idea. It was just a couple of guys that just thought about starting and trying something new. And I know that seems a little bit elementary, but we, as leaders and members of this fanatic movement, are proof that the shit can happen if you try new things and you're willing to just go outside the box and do it wholeheartedly. So.

• 1:47:47Rich Roll?

  Good talking to you, man.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:47:49Rich Roll?

  That was awesome. Sweet dude. We rocked it.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  We did great.

• 1:47:53Rich Roll?

  Feeling good. Awesome. So if you're digging on Brogan, the best way to connect with him on Twitter, he's @ArgoBats. Why are you @ArgoBats on Twitter?

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  It was a monogrammed backpack that I saw that I thought was hilarious. And I laughed, like LOL'd for a little bit, and no one in my area thought it was funny. And I just said the name a million times. There's someone out there named @ArgoBats. @ArgoBats.

• 1:48:16Rich Roll?

  It was on a backpack and you just stole this guy's name and made it your Twitter?

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  That's accurate. That's correct.

• 1:48:22Rich Roll?

  And the guy never reached out to you and complained?

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, he didn't. @ArgoBats. So if you're out there, Argo.

• 1:48:29Rich Roll?

  All right, but maybe, uh, maybe easier to find on Instagram because it's Brogan Graham there, right?

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:48:34Rich Roll?

  And if you're interested in, uh, in, in Brogan's abs, I got good news for you because there's a Twitter account devoted to that called Brogan's abs. You can check that out.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  You have done your homework.

• 1:48:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And most importantly, uh, go to November Project's website. It's November dash project.com, right? And, and see if there's a November project in your city or when you're traveling, find one and, uh, and check it out, right? And get your, uh, spray painted t-shirt.

• 1:49:02Speaker 01

  Earn your paint, man.

• 1:49:03Rich Roll?

  That's right. Earn your paints. Earn your paint. And, uh, and of course the book, man. Plug your book.

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  November Project, the book, uh, Caleb Daniloff, uh, Bojan Mandrake, as well as yours truly, uh, put out by Rodale Publishing, came out last April. It's totally sweet, a lot of photos, but don't be fooled. It's pretty epic.

• 1:49:22Rich Roll?

  It's like a graphic novel.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  It's a great.

• 1:49:24Rich Roll?

  It's like, I don't know how to describe it. Like it's unlike any other book I've ever seen.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like, it's almost as if I was involving, like, I was trying to build the first book for me. Cause like, I'm like an ADD guy that could like close the book on any, so I was like, it was tons of pictures. It's also, there's a lot of people that spill their guts in it. So don't overestimate it or underestimate it as something that's just kind of light. It's not, um, but it tells the building blocks of the first three years of the movement. And then Showing Up, the film that came out last December on YouTube, just search Showing Up, November Project will come up.

• 1:49:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And like I said, I'll put the show notes, uh, I'll put that in the show notes.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  Sweet.

• 1:49:58Rich Roll?

  Right on, dude. We did it. Thanks so much. We're out of here.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 1:50:02Rich Roll?

  Good. We're gonna make a video now.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  I think the GoPros.

• 1:50:04Rich Roll?

  Well, I got a camera over there. We'll make a little video trailer for the podcast. Do that. All right. All right. Thanks, man.

• 1:50:11Speaker 01

  Peace.

• 1:50:11Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:50:16Rich Roll?

  All right. That was pretty sweet. The guy has amazing energy, right? I just love it when a podcast guest just brings his or her a game and makes all the difference. And his message is super powerful. Hope you dug it. I really look forward to more collaborations, collabs, I think is the cool kids call it, with, uh, BG Brogan Graham in the future. Uh, if you would like to support this show and my work, the easiest way to do that Is just share the podcast with your friends around the water cooler, at the dinner table, on social media. If you haven't done so already, leaving a review on iTunes is very helpful. Don't forget to click that subscribe button on iTunes or wherever you enjoy your podcast content. As always, big thanks to everybody who has made a habit of clicking through the

• 1:50:58Rich Roll?

  Amazon banner ad on my website for all your Amazon purchases or bookmarking it to your browser. It doesn't cost you anything extra on your Amazon purchases, but they do kick us some loose commission change. That's very supportive of the work that I do. And on that note, mad shout out to everybody who has gone the extra mile to support my work financially through Patreon. I love you guys and really appreciate that. If you Doug Brogan, again, you can find him on Twitter. He's at Argo Batts, A-R-G-O-B-A-T-T-S. I don't know why he picked that name. He still didn't answer that question to my satisfaction during the podcast, but whatever. He's easier to find on Instagram, at Brogan Graham. And definitely check out November-project.com for more information on NP. And while you're

• 1:51:42Rich Roll?

  at that, I strongly suggest you watch their mini documentary, Showing Up. It's a really incredible little movie. I shared it in a roll call several months ago. I'll put a link to that in the show notes on Richroll.com as well on the episode page. And that's where you will also find copious additional links and resources and background on everything we talked about today and more. Once again, we're hosting a screening of the new documentary, What the Health. Would love to have you there. It's March 29th in Thousand Oaks, California. Plant-based dinner by Joy, desserts by Karma Baker. Go to WhatTheHealthFilm EVENTBRIT.COM for tickets and information. Julie and I are going to be in Australia, in Sydney,

• 1:52:24Rich Roll?

  on March 16th, and Melbourne on March 17th, doing these incredible evening events. For more information on tickets on that, there's still tickets available. Go to LivingThePlantPowerWay.com. Or click on appearances on my website and you'll see the hyperlinks there. I'm also speaking in Pasadena at one of the Engine 2 events on March 26th. Also, information about that on my website. If you would like to receive a free weekly email from me, I send something out every Thursday called Roll Call. It's five or six things that I've come across over the course of the week that I'm enjoying or that have intrigued me. Usually articles, a podcast episode, a documentary I watched, a TV show I saw, a YouTube video, whatever. It can be all different kinds of things. Often it's things that I don't share on social media.

• 1:53:09Rich Roll?

  The email's totally free. I'm not trying to sell you anything. There's no affiliate links. I don't make any money off this. There's no spam. Just good stuff. You can subscribe on my website. And when you're there on my site, you can go to the store where you can find all kinds of cool Plant Power merch and schwag. We got signed copies of Finding Ultra and The Plant Power Way. We got cool t-shirts, tech tees, sticker packs, all kinds of fun stuff because who doesn't love stickers, right? I want to thank today's sponsors. Harry's, a superior shave at an affordable price. Friends of the Rich Roll Podcast can visit harrys.com/roll to redeem your free trial set, which comes with a razor, five-blade cartridge, shaving gel, and post-shave gel. All you gotta do is pay the shipping.

• 1:53:52Rich Roll?

  And Casper, the number one online retailer of premium mattresses for a fraction of the price. Get $50 towards any mattress purchase today by visiting casper.com/roll and using the promo code ROLL at checkout. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for all his hard work on audio engineering and production. Sean Patterson for all his killer graphics. He started creating these amazing motion graphics that I've been sharing on Instagram. Are you guys following me on Instagram, @RichRoll? I post them there. They're really cool with little audio clips and moving text and all kinds of amazing stuff. That is Sean. Thank you, Sean. Chris Swan for all his hard work on compiling the show notes and creating the architecture for these episodes

• 1:54:37Rich Roll?

  and additional production assistance. And theme music by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. I'm off to Australia tomorrow. I'm recording this on Sunday morning. Monday night, I'm off to Australia. Never been there before. Super excited to come at you guys next week from the land down under. And I'm going to be making more YouTube videos. I've made a concerted decision to invest in that platform a little bit more than I have over the last year. And hopefully, I'm going to be bringing you some really fun stuff from both Sydney and Melbourne. So stay tuned for that. Take it easy, you guys. Have a great week. Talk to you soon. Peace. Plants. Stay true.