Singing Science, with Kelly Clarkson

Hit the high note with Neil deGrasse Tyson, singer Kelly Clarkson, comic co-host Chuck Nice, and vocologist Dr. Brian Gill as they explore the science of singing, bringing emotion to songs, singing injuries, the anatomy of the voice, the impact of auto-tune, and more. (Warning: Adult Language) Image Credit: Ben Ratner. NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/singing-science-with-kelly-clarkson/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now.

• 0:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is StarTalk. I'm your host Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist, and I'm also director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History. And I got with me my co-host Chuck Nice.

• 0:35Chuck Nice?

  Hey Neil.

• 0:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck E. Baby.

• 0:37Chuck Nice?

  Hey, how are you?

• 0:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Tweeting at ChuckNiceComic.

• 0:38Chuck Nice?

  Thank you, sir. Yes.

• 0:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I follow you, by the way.

• 0:41Chuck Nice?

  I follow you too.

• 0:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You do?

• 0:42Chuck Nice?

  To the ends of the earth.

• 0:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Actually, I might follow you in a list. I have a lot of lists that I follow because I follow comedians and I follow scientists.

• 0:50Chuck Nice?

  Now I don't feel special.

• 0:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, sorry.

• 0:52Chuck Nice?

  Like you have yet to follow you. You qualify.

• 0:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I follow you along with it. Forty-six entities, which includes like the Pentagon and, you know, the Navy and DARPA.

• 1:02Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 1:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Chuck.

• 1:03Chuck Nice?

  And Chuck Nice. Somebody will find your Twitter profile and be like, "How did Chuck hack his Twitter profile to get in this list?"

• 1:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, today we're exploring the science of the singing voice through my interview with singer-songwriter Kelly Clarkson.

• 1:19Chuck Nice?

  Miss Independent.

• 1:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah. In fact, the full interview, because for this, we cut and paste for this. The full interview is available on the StarTalk YouTube channel.

• 1:31Chuck Nice?

  Very nice.

• 1:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. And her newest album, which is how she landed in our universe, is called "The Meaning of Life."

• 1:37Chuck Nice?

  Oh.

• 1:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's how, that's how this happened.

• 1:40Chuck Nice?

  Let me tell you, if Kelly Clarkson is telling me the meaning of life, I don't want to live.

• 1:47Chuck Nice?

  I'm just saying.

• 1:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, we have in-studio expert guest, because I am no vocologist or vocal. I sing really good in the shower.

• 2:00Chuck Nice?

  No, no, your speaking voice would betray the fact that you might be able to sing well.

• 2:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In the shower. That's it.

• 2:07Chuck Nice?

  Okay.

• 2:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The acoustics in the shower make everybody sound good. Our guest today is professor and performer Brian Gill. Welcome to the show, Brian.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  Hey, thank you very much.

• 2:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so you are, I got here, you are associate professor of voice.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a thing.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Yes, and voice pedagogy.

• 2:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And voice pedagogy.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ooh, Indiana University?

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is in Bloomington, Indiana?

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Bloomington, Indiana, yes. Lovely little college town.

• 2:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Jacobs School of Music.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a beautiful thing.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And it says here you are vocologist.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's, that's just wrong. That should not be a word.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  They made that up.

• 2:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You made, you made that up.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  I did it real quick on the fly.

• 2:49Chuck Nice?

  Uh, I'm sorry, I won't be in this Friday. I have an appointment with my vocologist.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're fired.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  It sounds official, so then.

• 2:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It sounds, just because you're good at a thing, doesn't mean you put ologist on it and then that's another thing.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Are you a voice teacher or a vocologist?

• 3:02Chuck Nice?

  I'm a funnyologist.

• 3:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A comedologist.

• 3:07Chuck Nice?

  Right, comedologist.

• 3:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you're a tenor?

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And you perform, you're a performer as a tenor, uh, in opera, musical theater, love musical theater.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Concert recitals in the US and in Europe. I feel privileged that you're, you're in town.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  I feel privileged to be here with you two.

• 3:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We, we snatched you out of, you were gonna head back to Indiana yesterday?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Yes, and going back tonight.

• 3:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And, and we delayed your plane, knowing that you. So I gotta know.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Trouble on the tarmac?

• 3:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I gotta know, I got people. I got, I know the guy who does the.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Stop him.

• 3:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Checks the engines, right.

• 3:41Chuck Nice?

  You see that dude out there with the two like cones, lit up cones?

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, those are Neil's buddies.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  They dragged me off. I didn't know what hit me.

• 3:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, uh, I have to, I have to ask, what specifically is vocology?

• 3:52Speaker 02

  The quick definition, science and practice of voice habilitation, and if necessary, rehabilitation.

• 3:58Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 3:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, so now I know what habilitation is.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I never knew. We all know what rehabilitation is.

• 4:03Chuck Nice?

  Of course.

• 4:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But nobody ever habilitates.

• 4:05Chuck Nice?

  It's truly.

• 4:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Only in private, I do habilitate.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Fix it later. Wait till it's broken.

• 4:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, wait, so habilitate is the, what would that be then? The, the sustenance and care and feeding of your voice?

• 4:15Speaker 02

  You teach, you teach a person really high level functions, so you do not injure your voice.

• 4:19Chuck Nice?

  So you don't injure it?

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:20Chuck Nice?

  So there's, then you don't have to rehabilitate.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  That's right, because it's, it's more difficult to rehabilitate than habilitate.

• 4:25Chuck Nice?

  Gotcha.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Once the system's broken, to get the pieces back together, including the mind, and how the person reacted to the injury or the breakdown of the system is very difficult.

• 4:34Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 4:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, that's a thing.

• 4:35Chuck Nice?

  That's when you know you're a real singer, when you have a singing injury.

• 4:41Chuck Nice?

  I would love to be in this opera, but I'm on injured reserve.

• 4:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I tore my rotator cuff in my voice.

• 4:49Chuck Nice?

  Now playing the part of Carmen, unfortunately.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Well then.

• 4:54Chuck Nice?

  Due to injury.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  I'm out for the season.

• 4:59Chuck Nice?

  Right, yes.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  That's what happens. But and it covers it covers any professional voice user, which would also be someone like you all that use your voice in this medium.

• 5:09Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  So.

• 5:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We do.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  That's right. So if something happens with a politician or a teacher at school or something like that, because they have a heavy voice load, then a vocologist is uniquely trained to help them.

• 5:19Chuck Nice?

  I remember Bill Bill Clinton.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:21Chuck Nice?

  I remember he needed, yeah, and he ran into, yeah, he already sounded like this to begin with. And I just want to let you know that I talk like this because I'm not habilitated the way I should. And then I remember he was either campaigning for himself or Hillary or Barack Obama. I'm not sure. But anyway, he had to come off the campaign trail because he had injured his voice. And they called it an injury.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's a really common thing, unfortunately. But if you're habilitated.

• 5:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Interesting.

• 5:56Chuck Nice?

  Nice, nice.

• 5:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, so we'll be drawing on your expertise heavily for this conversation that I've had with Kelly Clarkson. She's been just as one of the best vocalists in the industry.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  I would say so, yeah.

• 6:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She's got a powerhouse voice.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  She does.

• 6:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She's versatile. Sold 25 million albums, 36 million singles worldwide. And she was the first artist in history, I got I got a crack team of researchers here, to top each of Billboard's Pop, Adult Contemporary, Country, and Dance charts.

• 6:31Chuck Nice?

  Wow, and only two of those actually count.

• 6:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Pop and dance. No, country, country people.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  It's huge.

• 6:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I had to ask her about her newest album, The Meaning of Life, and check it out. So the meaning of life is your eighth album.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 6:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And now forgive me, I haven't heard all your albums.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 6:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I heard this.

• 6:55Speaker 03

  I'm so offended.

• 6:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I've listened.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  I'm leaving. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

• 7:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But I've heard your, the stuff that is charted off of those albums.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Of course, I've heard those. In this album, it is, there's a soulfulness to it.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That, but it has sort of pop roots, bringing soul into it. And I'm old enough that I'm trying to remember, I'm trying to ask myself, where would they have put this album in the stove piped categories in a record shop?

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I don't think there's a spot.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  No, I mean, it's, I guess, pop, just because it's popular.

• 7:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, you know, there's too much soul. Excuse me. No, no, no, no, no. No.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  No, it is, it is more soulful pop. Well, it's funny though.

• 7:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because you sing and I just have to stop what I'm doing and just feel it.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  It is soulful pop and I, it's definitely, there's definitely a difference when you listen to this album versus the other albums. I mean, one, you can just, I'm happy. And it creates a whole different, that happiness creates a whole domino effect of different sounds and tones and, and even the freedom that Atlantic has given me creates a whole different vibe. Because an artist in their form to where they're able to just go, okay, well, wait, I can do whatever I want. Like, you know.

• 8:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like what? Holy.

• 8:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's scary because you're like, wait, it's all on me.

• 8:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Now you're accountable. Yeah, this stuff doesn't sell.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. But luckily, I love, I was telling my husband this, like even before the album dropped, I was like, I've literally been waiting so long to make this musical footprint that like, even if it didn't do as well as other things, I'm still happy at the end of the day for that, you know, because I've been very blessed. I've had 15 great years of success and, and I'm very thankful.

• 8:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so Brian, from a sort of a vocologist's perspective, what sets her voice apart?

• 8:43Chuck Nice?

  Happiness?

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Happiness, I think, now that we heard that, that's, I love that, that's beautiful.

• 8:47Chuck Nice?

  And now we know that she was miserable for the last fifteen years before this album.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Well, she, she's what I'd call a thoroughbred of vocalists, in that she can do something that's of very high demand on the voice, the amount of, we call it connection at the vocal fold level.

• 9:04Chuck Nice?

  Vocal fold?

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Vocal fold, the vocal folds are two flaps of tissue in the larynx, right here.

• 9:10Chuck Nice?

  Mm-hmm. Oh, don't, oh, wow. Let me see if I can do that.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  That when air-

• 9:13Chuck Nice?

  No, no, I don't know what that is. You flick your finger into your throat? He plucked his throat and made a sound.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Acoustics soon, right? Yeah, that's it.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 9:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I'm not doing that to my neck, I'm sorry.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  First of all, let's get around.

• 9:29Chuck Nice?

  Let me tell you something.

• 9:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, I think he's a robot.

• 9:31Chuck Nice?

  I am, I am plucking myself so hard that it hurts and I still can't get any sound out of it.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to close the vocal folds and you'll get it.

• 9:39Chuck Nice?

  I'll close the vocal folds.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Like you're lifting something, you go.

• 9:43Chuck Nice?

  Oh, what did that say? It worked! Nice job!

• 9:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm not even attempting that, I'm sorry.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 9:48Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, but you can't breathe.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  But she, she's been able to sustain that kind of production and really, really well over fifteen, I mean, plus years, I mean, it's fifteen, fifteen years in stardom, but, but even longer than that, so.

• 9:59Chuck Nice?

  Now, is that something natural, or can you, can you, is it like muscles?

• 10:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, let me get to that, let me get to that later.

• 10:04Chuck Nice?

  Oh, okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

• 10:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so, so, Brian, you've performed opera? Hard rock?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Funk?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  When I had hair.

• 10:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, funk, yeah.

• 10:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Funk? Not in Indiana?

• 10:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 10:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm guessing that was in another municipality?

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

• 10:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Jazz, even Indian classical music, which I love, I love Indian classical. Um, of these genres, not only the ones you've performed, but what Kelly Clarkson has, has shined in, can you rank them based on the demands on vocal performance?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah, well, I think they all have different demands, especially hard rocks or the gravel, people expecting the voice and heavy metal, that kind of thing.

• 10:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  With gravel, me like a Janis Jopson.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like a noise, kind of like a snarl.

• 10:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  A grip.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah.

• 10:50Chuck Nice?

  Like you're taking a dump and drinking Jack Daniels at the same time. Hold on, hold you by me, I'm a saint in this place.

• 10:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, where did you get that?

• 11:01Speaker 02

  Difficult to pass.

• 11:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Get it out of my head.

• 11:03Chuck Nice?

  It's hard, I'm just saying, it's a difficult thing to do.

• 11:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You say things I can't then get out of my head for the next forty-eight hours.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  It's gotta sound more constipated.

• 11:11Chuck Nice?

  Janice, we need more constipation. My friends all have gang wars. You know what I mean?

• 11:17Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 11:17Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly. Right. Or like Joe, Joe Cocker.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, Joe Cocker, man.

• 11:22Chuck Nice?

  Good, yeah.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  But, but then you get to, like, for Westerners, Indian classical music involves different tonality, and that's really challenging. So figuring out how to do that. Luckily, I was not the lead singer, so I was, I was the head of a backing group. Uh, behind it.

• 11:37Chuck Nice?

  I'm sorry, I don't know anything about Indian classical music. Is that the music that goes on for like a half hour without a key change?

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Yes, it can go on a long time with just a beat.

• 11:44Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:45Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, okay, cool.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  And they kind of chant.

• 11:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Citar's in there somewhere.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Uh huh, yep.

• 11:48Chuck Nice?

  Okay, cool.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 11:49Chuck Nice?

  Cool.

• 11:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, uh, in these genres then, because they come from such different

• 11:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  cultural places, country, Indian, funk, pop. Is it technique? Or do you have to actually feel it? Do you need some, some genetic link back into that place to draw from in order to perform or to excel?

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Both. I think there's a technique to it. There's a way that you use your voice that, that you can uh, actually define in a scientific way. What the people are doing, it's not, it's no longer as much of a mystery. But then there's also an exposure to a genre that's in, absolutely imperative someone have, or else they sound, they sound like a poser. Yeah.

• 12:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  You have to grow up loving it.

• 12:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, it's gotta be in, in, in your, under your skin.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I have, I have people who come to me as opera singers and then they're like, "I want to do a little bit more rock." But I was like, "Well, do you like rock?" "Not really."

• 12:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, get the hell out of here.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna sound funny.

• 12:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The guy down the hallway.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I asked Kelly about her, uh, how she conveys feelings and emotions in her singing. So let's check it out. Now, that's got me thinking. I can read a poem on a page.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Or rhyme. And it'll mean something informationally to me perhaps, but if I hear you sing it,

• 13:10Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 13:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  there's a whole other conduit of communication going on.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  Oh, definitely.

• 13:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And are you, you must be self-aware of that, and you can go in there and you can

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that's the

• 13:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  manipulate it, you, how are you?

• 13:25Speaker 03

  I want to be

• 13:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's your balance? What's your balance?

• 13:26Speaker 03

  I like to be a, you know, be a bit poetic, but at the same time, keep the story simple enough to where people aren't focused on The words of the story, it's more focused on the feeling of the story. Cause I'm more of an emotional person.

• 13:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Otherwise, just go out and read a damn book.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean.

• 13:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Too many words.

• 13:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, I always feel like, okay, I know I talk about Meryl Streep a lot, but my point.

• 13:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not yet on this show.

• 13:49Speaker 03

  I know, but I'm just saying, I do talk a lot, but, but here's my point. I've never said this before. But it's like.

• 13:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I love me some Meryl Streep.

• 13:54Speaker 03

  Oh, but I feel like she's one of those people. It could be a silent movie and she would effortlessly, flawlessly dictate by her, her emotions, her eyes, just her. Every part of her, you would know exactly what she's saying without her saying anything through the entire movie. I think she would have been like the most fantastic silent actress as well. She does so much and I think that as a singer too, like that's what I try to do. Like with songs, I try to like, you know, whatever the words are, I could be not saying words at all and just singing melody. But by my intensity or by.

• 14:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The modulation of that.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  And by my emotion, yeah, you could almost tell the story I'm saying without even there being words.

• 14:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. So Brian, is there, would you, would you say there's an evolutionary propensity to respond to a singing? Voice as opposed to just a spoken voice and, and why? I mean, what's, if you're just communicating information, I'll just utter a sentence. But somehow that doesn't work as well as if I sing a sentence.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think singing and the, and the different timbers that you have and ranges that you use in singing are more impactful with communication. You know, Darwin had a thought that in hominids, like early, the progenitor of man, uh, you know, that, that, uh, the first utterances were probably musical. Yeah. And so, I mean, if you think about most species.

• 15:17Chuck Nice?

  Doop or?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a little doo.

• 15:20Chuck Nice?

  Bunch of cavemen just like.

• 15:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We don't have vocabulary yet.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 15:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was just.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  They can't say you're out of tune.

• 15:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Was invented.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  But they, most species have some kind of song for mating and attracting people and identifying, you know, family and territory and all those things.

• 15:41Chuck Nice?

  That's just free. An early hominid standing outside of a cave going, "My mind's telling me yes, but my body, my body's telling me no." Come on out here, girl.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Oh, Lord.

• 15:59Chuck Nice?

  Sorry.

• 16:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I had to ask Kelly about the basis for, the thematic basis for her current album.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So let's check it out. The Meaning of Life.

• 16:14Speaker 03

  When you say it like that, it's far more dramatic.

• 16:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's kind of bodacious, audacious.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To be calling your album.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  It was bold.

• 16:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It was bold.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  You can figure out The Meaning of Life when you buy my album.

• 16:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a great selling point.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  It's like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, the golden ticket.

• 16:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow, okay, so that means I don't get to learn it.

• 16:35Speaker 03

  I know, not just yet, not till you get it, I'm just saying.

• 16:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, The Meaning of Life, is this something you, you've known for a while or just kind of came on to it?

• 16:44Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I think we're all under construction and I think, um, the point of me doing it.

• 16:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're all under construction.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  We are, and I think that, I think that meaning of life is really just about connection and making sure there are positive connections, you know, there's always people.

• 16:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  People to people.

• 16:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, and really, I think it's simple. I think we're complicated as humans because we try and figure everything out and sometimes you can't, you know?

• 17:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But you, you're.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Well, sometimes you can, I can't.

• 17:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Your mother was a schoolteacher.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  She was.

• 17:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, here you are, making it part of your life's mission to figure things out, and at schoolteacher, that's what they're trying to get their kids to figure stuff out.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think teachers question.

• 17:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How much of that touched you?

• 17:23Speaker 03

  I love, I mean, she always taught me to question, um, and I think that's the best part of whether you're talking about faith, politics, life, any, any, you know, love. Um, it's always to question it, like, it's always, I, I love that. I love to question whatever's happening in the moment. Um, one, to make sure it's real, and two, just because I don't think, when you stop questioning, then you stop asking, you stop caring, right? I don't know.

• 17:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I, I can't say it better than that.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  I bet you can. I bet you can effortlessly.

• 17:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Coming up, more on the science of voice and my interview with Kelly Clarkson when StarTalk returns.

• 18:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome back to StarTalk. I'm with my coach, Chuck Nice, and our expert guest in this episode, Brian Gill, professor of voice at Indiana University.

• 18:21Chuck Nice?

  Hello.

• 18:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wilmington.

• 18:22Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 18:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah. We're talking about the science of the singing voice, featuring my interview with Kelly Clarkson.

• 18:29Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I just had something to follow up. We talked about your capacity to bring an emotion or an authenticity to what it is you're saying.

• 18:38Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 18:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I remembered, I like James Taylor, but not enough to buy all his albums. I waited till he had his greatest hits and I bought the greatest hits album.

• 18:47Chuck Nice?

  Hmm, okay.

• 18:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And on there-

• 18:48Chuck Nice?

  Why, were you having trouble sleeping?

• 18:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My sister can't get enough of him and so goes to all his concerts and everything.

• 18:57Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 18:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so I'm listening to the album and I'm a fan of the blues.

• 19:02Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 19:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, and in there, he has-

• 19:05Chuck Nice?

  A blues song?

• 19:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Steamroller Blues.

• 19:07Chuck Nice?

  James Taylor?

• 19:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He has a blues song. And then I said, okay, he's trying.

• 19:13Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 19:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But, you know, he went to like a prep school in Massachusetts in high school and goes to Martha's Vineyard. And how many blues singers ever came out of Massachusetts?

• 19:24Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 19:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And so, so I could-

• 19:27Chuck Nice?

  Woke up this morning, the Volvo wouldn't start.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  He does, he does drop the F-bomb though in that one.

• 19:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He does.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  So I think that doesn't-

• 19:38Chuck Nice?

  Is that what that was?

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it just wasn't working for me.

• 19:42Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He was not convincing as, as, as, it just, it wasn't working.

• 19:47Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, it wasn't working for him either. I'm letting you know.

• 19:52Chuck Nice?

  But I think the blues as a genre is probably the one that you would have to feel the most.

• 19:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm thinking-

• 19:58Chuck Nice?

  In order to-

• 19:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I tweeted recently, the list of states that blues singers don't tend to come from.

• 20:05Chuck Nice?

  Oh, I love that.

• 20:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Utah?

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Top of the list?

• 20:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Utah. New Hampshire?

• 20:12Chuck Nice?

  Dude, that's amazing. How did I miss that tweet? That's amazing.

• 20:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How did you miss that?

• 20:16Chuck Nice?

  How did I miss that tweet? That is phenomenal.

• 20:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, you gotta be like from Alabama.

• 20:20Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 20:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Mississippi.

• 20:21Chuck Nice?

  Exactly.

• 20:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You gotta be Poe in Chicago.

• 20:24Chuck Nice?

  Poe in Chicago. That's it. Right, Louisiana.

• 20:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, some place.

• 20:29Chuck Nice?

  Right, exactly. You got to, there's got to be some poor black people near you somewhere. That's what it is. Or you don't have the blues.

• 20:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Colorado?

• 20:39Chuck Nice?

  No, no Colorado blues. You know what I mean? What do they sing about? Just like? Rocky Mountain High. Right. Yeah, exactly. That's what you get.

• 20:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My ski, my ski's broke.

• 20:50Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? No hot chocolate at the lodge? Really? Only three marshmallows? Okay, yeah. Oh, that's, dude, that's brilliant.

• 21:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know, just saying.

• 21:01Chuck Nice?

  That is brilliant.

• 21:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You gotta find that tweet.

• 21:03Chuck Nice?

  That is, I can't wait.

• 21:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  States.

• 21:05Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that is brilliant. And the Utah blues, I'm going home to write that. I'm going to write that song tonight, I guarantee you. The Utah blues. Can't wait.

• 21:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So let's get back to my interview with Kelly Clarkson and see where that takes us next. Check it out.

• 21:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do you think of your voice as an instrument that needs cultivating and care?

• 21:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 21:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 21:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I have to.

• 21:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, the reason why, the reason why I ask is we were in the green room before you performed in the YouTube

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  space. And, but before you were like just yucking it up with everybody in the green room and you just walk out there and then out comes this, where does, how do you, how?

• 21:48Speaker 03

  Well, I warmed up earlier this morning. So I definitely, I definitely aimed to warm up every day. It's just like a speaker, like a public speaker, like your voice is, or a runner, your voice is a muscle. You know, it's these little things that you have to keep trained. And I know some singers don't have to. I think I've heard Jennifer, um, in an interview, Jennifer Hudson, she said that she didn't.

• 22:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're all your first name people.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  Oh, sorry.

• 22:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm gonna start name dropping first name.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 22:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  I'm saying it because I don't think she does.

• 22:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, okay.

• 22:15Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 22:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. My turn. My turn. Okay.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  My turn. Yeah, you're in a different pool of people.

• 22:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I was meeting Ike the other day. Isaac Newton. Yes.

• 22:29Speaker 03

  Jennifer Hudson. No, I'm saying she's, you know, a huge, big vocalist as well, yes. And she's a, she's a big vocalist and she doesn't, she said in interviews, I found it shocking. She was like, I don't warm up at all. It just happened. So I'm not like that. I have to warm up a bit. There, I can do it. It's just not going to sound as good.

• 22:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. No, not to call you out, but you are 15 years older than you were when you were American Idol. So is the warm up the same?

• 22:56Speaker 03

  Oh, it's easier.

• 22:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Easier.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think, you know what's funny? I saw Tony Bennett, um, at this, oh, another.

• 23:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, that's fine. Had both names. Didn't say I saw Tony.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  No, I was saying, I, I was at this event and this was years ago and he sang and he was, you know, 80 something. And I was like, I mean, he killed all of us. Like he, he was amazing. And I'm a Tony Bennett fan, but I was, you know, I don't know. I thought maybe the older we get, like, I don't know. Sometimes people sound different. He sounds even better, like a fine glass of wine. It's so beautiful. And I will say, if you're doing things correctly and you're taking care of yourself and you're not ruining your chords. I think that you get better with age. Your, your voice sounds more lived in and it sounds like I can go lower. I can go higher.

• 23:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I like that phrase, lived in.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like a good pair of boots. Just to be clear, in the green room before she went out.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I understated what she was doing in the green. She had friends, her husband, her agent, her book. Everybody's, and she's just yucking it up with everybody while she's eating chicken and waffles.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 24:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just, just scarfing down chicken and waffles. So I'm thinking.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  That's a good warm up.

• 24:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is this, is she about, what's about to happen after this? I'd had no idea. She went out there.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  And ripped the part.

• 24:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And ripped, just, just tore a new one in, oh, wow. So tell me about the anatomy of the vocal cords.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  So, uh, well, there are two.

• 24:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And while you add it, I'd like to distinguish them, if you can, from that of other primates or anything else that, that would make sounds like birds or whales. Yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Ooh. One of the main things in, in human beings, the, the larynx, which is the voice box right here, has descended. And so it creates a bent resonator. It's like a space here and then a space going this way that are roughly about the same size.

• 24:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Upward and then forward.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  The other species have a larynx this way up there and so, so they, they only use it for sound and they don't use their tongue very much for articulation. When they're making sounds. So that's unique about human beings.

• 24:55Chuck Nice?

  So where the others come sound like the nutty professor, you're like.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  So, so that's one of the unique features and then you've got, I mean, with voice use, you've got this power source, which is the air that comes from your lungs. You've got the tissue here, the vocal folds that vibrate that create sound and then that sounds filtered through the space above it. So that's the basics of the, the, the way the instrument works.

• 25:23Chuck Nice?

  Now, does that, does, okay. Does that serve any purpose for us socially or otherwise that we would be so different?

• 25:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And, and the way we use our voice too serves a purpose. There, there was a study not too long ago where people could judge. Trustworthiness and dominance in, I think it was 500 milliseconds of listening to someone.

• 25:44Chuck Nice?

  Really?

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, oh, so, so, so deep information about social interaction is communicated just by the tonality of your voice.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  In milliseconds.

• 25:53Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  So, and, and so there, there are certain habits that people have that are often rated higher or, you know, like the way a, a woman modulates the voice. Like using different pitches and things like that. That's, that's trustworthy. A person who does that. And then same thing with male.

• 26:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And if they're valley girl?

• 26:09Speaker 02

  That they speak a little bit higher and they say, now listen, we have to, that, that, that's also rated as trustworthy. Honey, please, sweetie.

• 26:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. So it's not just words. So for example, the writer has that challenge because if you're just putting words on a page. It's harder to then communicate the tonality of how that's actually being expressed. So the good writers. Somehow get that in that sentence.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 26:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, either by the pre-descripter. She responded anxiously, or she, and then you you you put that in. But you don't need any of that if you're just speaking it.

• 26:40Chuck Nice?

  Right, because you can hear that, so you can hear all these things.

• 26:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  And if you understand the emotions, like the trigger for voice goes through the limbic system, which is part of where emotion comes from.

• 26:49Chuck Nice?

  A trigger for voice.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  The trigger, like the the impulse.

• 26:52Chuck Nice?

  For a voice.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  The nerve firing.

• 26:54Chuck Nice?

  Trigger for the interaction of voice with another person.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  It runs through the limbic system, and so emotion then can be encoded on the voice because it's it's running through there.

• 27:02Chuck Nice?

  Which is why, when you were talking to someone, and you say, I'm terribly sorry, but I really need you to move this along, and they say, calm down, and you're like, I am not upset.

• 27:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You're lying.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's hard, it's hard to hide. It's hard to hide because it's there, which was what makes a performer so unique, because they're taking, they're actually taking a signal, you know what happens to your voice if you're really upset. You can't, you lose your voice. I mean, you can't do anything. So a performer's taking that signal, and they're getting just enough of the emotional information, encoding it in the voice so that a community can understand it. Yeah, on purpose in the moment, but they're not going too far. So there's this whole thing nowadays where people are trying to push people to feel, and then person gets in there and they're like, uh, and they can't sing.

• 27:50Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  And it's like, that's that's too far. So we have to figure out, it's much more complex than that. You can't be void of emotion, but you also can't be over overwhelmed by it.

• 27:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So tell me, can you reflect on her comments about age and what that does with your voice?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so first.

• 28:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because I, you know, all the sopranos, they're done, but you know, there are no eighty year old sopranos.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, rare, it's a rare thing. Marilla Franny though.

• 28:08Chuck Nice?

  HBO series, I'm sorry.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  A shout out to Marilla Franny, though.

• 28:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  She's one of the best in the opera world, and she's eighty something now, and and still sounds beautiful.

• 28:16Chuck Nice?

  At at eighty.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  At eighty something.

• 28:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But they usually send them out to pasture, so what's going on there?

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so what happens, there's a breakdown in the voice, and one of the things that jumped out in that clip was, I mean, I I believe Kelly's in her thirties.

• 28:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's now, that's not aging voice, that's like the prime of your life for voice. So you get in there, the musculature develops in your thirties and into your forties, and then it starts right around in the fifties, mid fifties, it starts going downhill in that. There's muscle atrophy, there's a thinning of the vocal folds themselves. And so, and there's also calcification, ossification and calcification in the vocal, in the voice box.

• 28:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Hardening.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, hardening, which gives you less flexibility and so there's a downgrading of, of, of technique.

• 28:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It would make you less versatile, but it's still, it wouldn't mean you still can't put some soulful.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Definitely not.

• 28:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Elements in your song.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and what, I think what she was saying.

• 29:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Tony Bennett example.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's one of my favorites. He's one of my favorites and actually functionally, he, he lasted far more than other singers of his era, so. But, but.

• 29:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  His others died, but.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Sammy's dead.

• 29:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  They're all gone. All gone.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  That's one way to do.

• 29:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Martin's dead.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Outlive him.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  That's perfect.

• 29:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Perry, Cuomo's dead. Right, Big Crosby, all of them, they're all dead. All dead.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Nice. But yeah, if you, if you combine the understanding a person gains through life, that even, even the sort of uh, lack of ability they may have or flexibility that they may have is made up for in their understanding of emotion and, and they're more deeply grounded in life, so that shows. Hmm, interesting.

• 29:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, you know, today, um, um, as I came to learn, your singing voice, like most things in society, can be enhanced by technology.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 29:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And I asked her, asked Kelly about autotune.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  Uh oh.

• 29:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just find out how that plays. Let's check it out.

• 30:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Am I allowed to ask you in front of cameras, uh?

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do you use autotune?

• 30:06Speaker 03

  On records?

• 30:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, we don't do it live, but we definitely have used it on records.

• 30:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cause autotune, you can now do it live. Yeah. What you sing here comes down on the right note.

• 30:14Speaker 03

  There are people that do concerts that have their vocals. Yeah, cause I know who they are, so. Cause I know the people that work for them.

• 30:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is it just people in the closet about their autotune?

• 30:24Speaker 03

  There are people that autotune live. Um, I don't do that live. I don't want to take away from that emotional moment. Um, but when it's on record, I don't mind if I have, if I love a performance and I'm like, oh, I don't, I don't know if I'm gonna nail that again, or if I even try it again and I haven't nailed, like there was just, everything was perfect, but one thing, I don't want that one thing to.

• 30:44Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  To ruin the whole.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  To ruin the whole vibe. So, so I don't mind, I don't mind like using it sparingly. But we definitely don't use it a ton.

• 30:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cause it's a major addition to the musician's arsenal.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  And it's, and it, there are a lot of cool things you can do. I mean, I know a lot of guys in rap use them because it sounds cool, like.

• 31:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We did a whole program for Nova. Back when I was host of a Nova spinoff called Nova Science Now. I interviewed the guy who invented autotune. And he was telling me about what happens if you.

• 31:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, you can manipulate it over the edge. And then it makes that funny.

• 31:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, and.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  Which can be cool, cause on this, we, we did it on Medicine on this album.

• 31:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He made it clear that that was not the intent. The intent is to fix your note to be the proper note. Dangle off the side of the waterfall. Extra weird noises come from.

• 31:37Speaker 03

  And it's also cool, like, okay, there's a song called Medicine. That's where we use it, like on Medicine, um, there's this part that goes, um. Never give me high, never give me lit. And, and I sing it, but then there's this also part, they literally took my vocal and almost like. Changed it, manipulated it like an octave lower. To where it has this like. And it's like this, it sounds like a man. My mom was like, who's the man on your record? I was like, that's my voice. They just manipulated it. So there's really cool things you can do with it. I think at the end of the day, if you're not capable of doing it live. Then I don't think you should maybe do it. That's my personal thing. But if it's like. Gonna ruin a moment that was really beautiful and like, you don't want to change that moment, that doesn't bother me.

• 32:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. So Brian, would you say autotune in music is analogous to. Doping in athletics? Chuck hosts a, a sports spinoff of StarTalk called Playing With Science and. All manner of these topics come up, but I, now we have an analog in a whole other field. You are fixing your performance.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you will.

• 32:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So that people will applaud.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Doping brings, I mean doping in sports brings you to the ability to do it though live. Whereas autotune does it. Autotune puts it on some kind of digital. Format. And so I think what Kelly said is right on the money. I think if you can't do it live. What's the point? Cause you're trying to commune. Most people perform because they're trying to commune with people.

• 33:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but if you can't perform any longer and autotune helps you hit that note. Then that's to me, sounds just like doping.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  It does.

• 33:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. They have it. I'm ready for fight, but no.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 33:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There it is.

• 33:19Chuck Nice?

  Settled.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  I agree with you, Dr. Tyson.

• 33:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just another quick one. Do you think that computers will one day, AI for example, will be able to not only compose an emotional music, but then perform it in a way that we might not even need humans because it'll know how to maximize access to your emotional purse strings, not purse strings, emotional.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Heartstrings.

• 33:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Heartstrings, thank you.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on, on record saying no. Never gonna happen. Yeah, well, I don't want it to happen.

• 33:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He doesn't want it to happen.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  But there's always.

• 33:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It ain't like he know, he don't want it.

• 33:56Chuck Nice?

  By the way, Brian, they'll never be able to write a funny joke either.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 34:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  My two experts.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, we gotta take a quick break. When StarTalk returns, more of my interview with singing sensation Kelly Clarkson.

• 34:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back on StarTalk. Co-host Chuck Nice, guest Brian Gill.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Vocologist.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Vocologist.

• 34:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, uh, we're featuring my interview with singer-songwriter, voice sensation Kelly Clarkson. And just before we went to break, we were talking about whether autotune, which puts you on note, contrary to how many, so many people think of autotune.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  As doing a funny thing. It puts you on. You become a warbler or something. It puts you on note.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Do you believe?

• 34:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Thank you, Cher. Are you?

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Darn good.

• 34:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are you, uh, and you said it was, it had meaningful analogies to doping in sports. But then, during the break, you mentioned that there are actual singers who are actually taking actual steroids.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  In support of their voice.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. So if you, for some that are, are legit and they have a big gig that they've gotta do, and if you're gonna earn $50,000, you're gonna do it.

• 35:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  And it, if you take steroids, it can reduce the swelling and enable you to get through a performance, but they're abused often. So folks behind, you know, they'll be backstage in a Broadway show and they'll be looking, who has steroids, who has steroids, and looking for pills.

• 35:33Chuck Nice?

  I need the juice, man.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  That, exactly. And it's, it's usually.

• 35:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, they have, they're, they're actually pumping iron too.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. Oh, they're buff. These are buff people, so.

• 35:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's why the singers are getting buffed away.

• 35:44Chuck Nice?

  Exactly right.

• 35:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh my.

• 35:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So let's get back to my interview with Kelly Clarkson. Did you know she's also an author?

• 35:52Chuck Nice?

  No, I did not.

• 35:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She's written children's books.

• 35:54Chuck Nice?

  That doesn't count.

• 35:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let me tell you why it counts. Let me tell you why it counts.

• 36:02Chuck Nice?

  Go ahead.

• 36:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There will always be children to buy your book. Whereas there's only one pool of adults at any given time.

• 36:08Chuck Nice?

  This is so true, but a brilliant marketing scheme does not legitimacy make.

• 36:18Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Anyhow, I found out that she wrote a lullaby to go with each one of her books. So I just had to get inside that and find out what was going on.

• 36:26Chuck Nice?

  That's cool.

• 36:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Let's check it out.

• 36:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I also understand you wrote a lullaby for each of your two books?

• 36:32Speaker 03

  I wrote a lullaby for the first one.

• 36:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I love lullabies.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do too. It was when I was gonna write a lullaby for each one, and we might still do that, but the Christmas one, which was the second one in the Rivero series, I actually did a full-on Christmas song for, original every once in a while. So we did a full-on Christmas song for the second book, but there's a lullaby for the first one. It's the song I sang to her when she was a baby.

• 36:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, so lullabies, I think it's scientifically demonstrated to be soothing to babies. I mean, we knew that empirically, but I think you can study brain patterns and what parts of it it hits, and it calms anxieties.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  It's almost the same as a speaking voice, like a smooth, rather than a, like your voice compared to my speaking voice. Yours would be more soothing.

• 37:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So you can sing and I can speak, and we can like walk the road.

• 37:16Speaker 03

  We have a duo. I'm ready.

• 37:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I say, "The universe."

• 37:21Speaker 03

  And I go, "The universe."

• 37:27Chuck Nice?

  This is actually good. I like it.

• 37:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Brian, is there a definition of a lullaby?

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 37:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The functional definition?

• 37:35Speaker 02

  It's, I mean.

• 37:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Other than that, babies dig it, right?

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Babies dig it. The basic idea is it's a construct of a song that's designed to be super simple. Because with their cognitive functioning, children can't process something that's too difficult. So it has really consonant intervals.

• 37:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Consonant.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Not dissonant.

• 37:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, not dissonant. That's the opposite of dissonant.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Da da dum, da da dum. Yeah.

• 37:59Chuck Nice?

  Simple.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yep, and then.

• 38:01Chuck Nice?

  Nursery rhyme like.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Exactly. And repetitive is key.

• 38:04Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  So something that's repetitive so that it's.

• 38:06Chuck Nice?

  All of music today.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  I fall asleep often.

• 38:10Chuck Nice?

  Exactly. It's like, you know, when you listen to the radio, it's like, hey, you're an idiot. You'll like this.

• 38:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Is that what that?

• 38:19Chuck Nice?

  I'm sorry.

• 38:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's the preamble to every song.

• 38:21Chuck Nice?

  Pretty much every song, the unspoken preamble. Hey, you're an idiot. You might like this.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  The dummies are gonna love it.

• 38:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Can I tell you my favorite lullaby?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 38:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's Feed the Bird.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Feed the Birds?

• 38:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  From Mary Poppins.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  I don't know it.

• 38:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, you do.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Do I know it?

• 38:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, my gosh. And I love just the words and the... She sings it to lull the children to sleep. And it's, and she sings about the bird woman at St. Paul's Cathedral.

• 38:46Chuck Nice?

  This is getting scarier than ever.

• 38:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Tuppence a bag. Tuppence, tuppence, tuppence a bag.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  It worked, Neil.

• 38:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait. It worked quick. It worked. And, and, and so there's a bird lady who's homeless. Where you buy bags of crumbs from her to then feed the hungry birds on the steps of St. Paul.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 39:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And there's a line where she says, um, "The saints and apostles look down as she sells her wares. Although you can't see it, you know they are smiling each time someone shows that he cares."

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Oh, that's sweet.

• 39:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's a really beautiful song. Very, it's beautiful, it's socially conscious, and it's, and these are not infants. They were, they're, they're tweens. Kids are tweens. And so, so that's my favorite. Well, you got a lullaby?

• 39:39Chuck Nice?

  My favorite lullaby, Sexual Healing by Marvin Gaye.

• 39:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I've been really trying, baby.

• 39:47Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Brian?

• 39:51Speaker 02

  To sleep or get in the bed? Just trying to figure that. There's a different.

• 39:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's not to go to sleep, it's to sleep with. There's two different uses of it.

• 39:59Chuck Nice?

  Two different things, right?

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Mine are, my, my wife Kim, beautiful, most beautiful soprano voice you've ever heard. And she sings to my boys every night. We both do, but, but she'll sing Somewhere Over the Rainbow to one by request. She takes requests. And then the other one, she sings, "The Easter Bunny is coming to town today." "The Easter Bunny is coming to town today." And he just sits there.

• 40:18Chuck Nice?

  And he loves it.

• 40:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, how old are they?

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Uh, seven and nine.

• 40:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Seven and nine? Wait, so you, so you married another singer?

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Because of.

• 40:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's a thing?

• 40:28Speaker 02

  We were performing together. I heard her voice. She was rehearsing and I heard this voice and I was like, man. And then later I met her. I didn't know it was her voice. And I walked up and I was like, woo, man. And then I put the two in together.

• 40:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it was a mating call?

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was. It was. Come to me.

• 40:46Chuck Nice?

  That's awesome.

• 40:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like the penguins in the movie. Only it's the sound for just one other person in the whole world.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Everything else was silenced.

• 40:55Chuck Nice?

  Wow.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  And the sun rose.

• 40:59Chuck Nice?

  That's awesome, man.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  That was cool.

• 41:00Chuck Nice?

  Well, congratulations.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Good choice.

• 41:02Chuck Nice?

  A house of music.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. The boys sing really well. Cause we sing to them all the time.

• 41:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Man.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  So.

• 41:08Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's a singing household. That's it, yeah. I grew up in one of those, uh, uh, we, we called ourselves, um, the Von Blacks. Instead of.

• 41:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The Von Traps.

• 41:18Chuck Nice?

  Instead of the Von Traps, yes. We were the Von Blacks. Every night when we went to bed, I was like, so long, farewell, it's time to say goodbye. You know, goodnight, bitch.

• 41:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's the Von Black element of it.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  A tender story.

• 41:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's that, what's that other book? Um, uh, it's a, it's a parody on Goodnight Moon. It's, oh, oh, it's.

• 41:46Chuck Nice?

  Go the fuck to sleep. That is the name of.

• 41:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Get the fuck to sleep.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Get the fuck to sleep. I read that, yeah.

• 41:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, it's a real book, yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  I'm done with you.

• 41:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Lay down.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 41:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. Okay, just to atone for this bit of the conversation. Yes. We gotta put a link in this to when LeVar Burton read to me "Goodnight Moon." Oh, that's right. Yeah, he read it to me. That's very cool. It was beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. I love that one. Touching moments. So, in this last clip with Kelly, we bonded over the poetic beauty of the great American total solar eclipse of August 2017. Let's check it out.

• 42:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, you're from Tennessee?

• 42:31Speaker 03

  I'm from Texas, but I've been in Tennessee for over a decade.

• 42:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so you're a resident of Tennessee?

• 42:36Speaker 03

  I'm a resident.

• 42:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, now, I arranged to have a total solar eclipse go completely through your state.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  Actually, Sumner County, where our farm is, is exactly like one of the best places.

• 42:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So, maybe my invitation was still in the mail.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  Lost in the mail.

• 42:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'll go back home and check.

• 42:52Speaker 03

  You could've come.

• 42:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Maybe it was there.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  We had a cookout.

• 42:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I don't know.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  We were on our land, just hanging out.

• 42:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I would, maybe it's still in the...

• 43:00Speaker 03

  It's still, I just didn't have your address, the right one.

• 43:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Did you have any, like, astro person on your ranch for this?

• 43:08Speaker 03

  No, we...

• 43:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You had no scientist on the ranch?

• 43:11Speaker 03

  Do you, do I, I love that I appear that I have scientist friends too. That I'm that cool.

• 43:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  He's a scientist at arms' reach.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  Well, we do have Chris Dye on our team, which he's a genius. We call him MacGyver on tour, but he wasn't in Tennessee at the time. But, yeah, we, we were floored, though. It was one of the coolest things I've ever been a part of.

• 43:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Followed by a moon shadow.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  It was so cool.

• 43:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Steeped in darkness.

• 43:34Speaker 03

  Steeped in darkness. Write that book right now, sir. Look at you.

• 43:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Steeped in darkness.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 43:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so the next time there's a total solar eclipse over your farm, you're gonna call me up?

• 43:43Speaker 03

  I will call you up. I'm gonna call you, and you aren't gonna come, but I'm gonna call you. You'd think I won't. Actually, the next time to see it, I think, is it, um, where's the next, the next one they said that was coming, is it in '24?

• 43:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, there's, there's an eclipse every couple of years, so they're not as rare as the press would have you believe.

• 44:01Speaker 03

  No, no, no, agree.

• 44:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right. So, and nowadays, we have airplanes, so...

• 44:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Like, there's one, like, in South America, like, next year or the year after, you know, 2019, I think. So, you're never really that far away from the next one.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:15Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And lately, by the way, two-thirds of our surface is ocean, so there are entrepreneurial... So the ocean people who say, we'll sail our boat into the eclipse path. And then you have an ocean cruise the rest of the time you're there.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  What?

• 44:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  That's pretty sexy.

• 44:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, it totally, totally works completely.

• 44:33Speaker 03

  Nice bottle of wine?

• 44:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Totally.

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Yes. Singing some Total Eclipse of our Heart. Nothing I can do. Have you seen that video?

• 44:42Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I tweeted during the eclipse, all the songs I knew that referenced a total solar eclipse. So you should look it up. There's some songs in there. No, no, you can make, you can make the eclipse album.

• 44:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, we'll totally.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, that's great.

• 44:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We'll collaborate. You hear that, Atlantic Records? That's your next.

• 44:57Speaker 03

  The duet between us. You could be like the, the, you're the voice, though. You're the sexy voice in Boys to Men. And I'll be the singer. You do that, hey, baby. You just come in and you just start talking it out. Talk science, dirty science. Talk nerdy to me.

• 45:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I say, Kelly, look west.

• 45:12Speaker 03

  Look west.

• 45:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Here comes the moon shadow.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  Moon.

• 45:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  1,800 miles an hour.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I'll just come in with, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 45:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It is a cone through space of darkness.

• 45:26Speaker 03

  Darkness, darkness, darkness.

• 45:31Chuck Nice?

  Awesome.

• 45:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She's every bit as fun as that conversation sounded like it was. And, and it sounds, she also sounded pretty authentic to me in every way. I mean, I was totally, uh, like, now, maybe people just can be like this, you know, where you kind of like you were friends your whole life.

• 45:48Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 45:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. And, and, and I used to take that personally, like, wow, we really bonded. But I think they're just like that.

• 45:54Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 45:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And that anyone in a conversation with them might feel the same way about them. So, so.

• 46:00Chuck Nice?

  She just has that type of, uh, spirit, you think?

• 46:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Spirit, that, that's a good word.

• 46:04Chuck Nice?

  Grounded, down to earth.

• 46:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 46:07Chuck Nice?

  Anchored. Solid person.

• 46:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 46:09Chuck Nice?

  I, I, I, I'm more of a fan after hearing your interview with her, I have to say. And by more of a fan, I mean, I am now a fan.

• 46:20Chuck Nice?

  Love so soft.

• 46:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That wasn't your thing, right?

• 46:23Chuck Nice?

  I'm just, yeah.

• 46:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It wasn't your thing.

• 46:25Chuck Nice?

  No, I've always liked Kelly Clarkson.

• 46:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah. So, so, uh, this, this, uh, Eclipse song that we were sort of sketching. Did you, do you have a favorite universe song?

• 46:34Chuck Nice?

  It's really not a universe. It's more, uh, the, the closest, uh, celestial body in the solar system than it is a universe song, but, uh, fly me to the moon.

• 46:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh.

• 46:46Chuck Nice?

  And let me play amongst the stars.

• 46:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. So now, uh, people think of that song being about the moon, but the moon is, is like the closest thing it sings about.

• 46:55Chuck Nice?

  That's it, yeah.

• 46:55Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It also sings about Jupiter and Mars.

• 46:57Chuck Nice?

  That on Jupiter, let me see what spring is like on Jupiter and Mars. In other words, please be true. In other words, I love you. Yeah. All right.

• 47:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Ladies and gentlemen, that's been StarTalk.

• 47:18Chuck Nice?

  Take it on the road.

• 47:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're the three tenor, no, the three, whatever.

• 47:22Chuck Nice?

  The three amigos.

• 47:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Brian, thanks for coming in for this.

• 47:26Chuck Nice?

  My pleasure.

• 47:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We'll have to find you again.

• 47:28Chuck Nice?

  Uh, please, bring me back.

• 47:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We will totally bring you back.

• 47:30Chuck Nice?

  All right.

• 47:31Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because, because we get singers, every, you know, what now, what are we gonna do with this singer this time, you know? But if we got a vocologist, he can come at it from every angle.

• 47:38Chuck Nice?

  Absolutely. Bring it on. Exactly.

• 47:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You got it.

• 47:41Chuck Nice?

  I'm gonna start using that. So what do you do? I'm a vocologist. Here's my card. Yeah, you can't say I'm not.

• 47:48Chuck Nice?

  You don't even know what it is. How the hell you gonna tell me I'm not a vocologist and you don't even know what the hell it is? Okay?

• 47:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, Chuck, always good having you.

• 48:00Chuck Nice?

  Always a pleasure.

• 48:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Uh, I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. Uh, and I want, I want to thank Brian, Chuck, and of course Kelly for making this show happen. You've been listening and possibly even watching StarTalk. And as always, I bid you to keep looking up.