Ask Daily Stoic: Ryan and Sunday Night Football’s Michele Tafoya Talk Stoicism and Making the Most of Each Day

In today’s episode, Ryan and Michele Tafoya, NFL sideline reporter and radio host, discuss self-improvement in quarantine, sympatheia, and more. This episode is brought to you by WHOOP. WHOOP is a fitness wearable that provides personalized insights on how well you’re sleeping, how much you’ve recovered from your workouts, and how much you’re stressed out from each day. It’s the ultimate whole-body tracker for someone who needs an all-in-one solution. Visit WHOOP.com and enter STOIC at checkout to save 15% on your order. This episode is brought to you by Mack Weldon, an amazing online retailer for men’s basics. Mack Weldon believes in smart design, premium fabrics and simple shopping—and they’ve created a great new loyalty program, Weldon Blue. Try out Mack Weldon today. And for 20% off your first order, visit http://mackweldon.com and use promo code STOIC.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/ryanholidayInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryanholiday/Facebook: http://facebook.com/ryanholidayYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Michele Tafoya: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Michele_TafoyaInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/micheleonsundays/Facebook: https://facebook.com/michele.tafoya.vandersallSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Weekend Edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something that can help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We reflect. We prepare. We think deeply about the challenging issues of our time. And we work through this philosophy in a way that's more possible here when we're not rushing to work or to get the kids to school, when we have the time to think, to go for a walk,

• 0:46Ryan Holiday?

  to sit with our journals, and to prepare for what the future will bring.

• 0:53Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Today's guest is one of my favorite people, Michelle Tafoya. You might know her from her day job, which is as the sideline reporter for NBC's Sunday Night Football. She also usually does the Thanksgiving game. She's the one handing out the big turkey leg. But Michelle is not only a great journalist, covering the Olympics and tennis championships and all sorts of major sporting events, but also is a big student of Stoic philosophy and is a big part of how my books have made their way through professional sports.

• 1:36Ryan Holiday?

  She heard about the book, I believe, from Mike Lombardi, who brought the book to the Patriots. But when I was in Minneapolis several years ago now, Michelle was nice enough to have me on her radio show. And we talked about how my books had made their way through sports and the Patriots. And that was the story that got picked up all over and really, I think, kicked off the trend of Stoicism in sports. So Michelle is someone who has used her platform to help bring philosophy to all sorts of different people. And you can follow her on Twitter. She talks about... About Stoicism quite often, just a really interesting lady. And, you know, we interviewed Michelle several years ago for Daily Stoic.

• 2:19Ryan Holiday?

  We did an email interview. And, you know, she said something that I actually think about pretty often. I was asking her about breaking into journalism as a woman. And there are sort of probably moments of frustration and unfairness. And she said, and this is a quote, she said, "Life is unfair. That is a fact. If life were fair, no child would ever die. If life were fair, everyone would look the same. If life were fair, cupcakes and potato chips would be good for you." And she said, "Accepting that life is not fair is liberating. It reminds you that there are some things with which you have to deal and accept." And she says, like, "Look, there's no value in playing the victim. There's no value in complaining." She's like, "I focus on what I control.

• 3:02Ryan Holiday?

  I focus on the work that I can do and I focus on being really, really good at my job." And as we talked about before, she says that she doesn't identify as a female sports reporter, but as a sports reporter. And she's saying that this notion helps her focus on the job at hand rather than other people's perceptions. And so, you know, Michelle is a fascinating reporter. She's got some counterintuitive, contrarian viewpoints, which I love. And yeah, just a great chat. We talked while she was in Florida, where she'd been stuck during the COVID-19 crisis. And I think she's got some great advice for how to cope with that. So I'm a big fan of Michelle Tafoya. I think not enough attention gets paid to the female Stoics out there.

• 3:45Ryan Holiday?

  And unfortunately, the ancient world was a man's world. And so not enough recognition was given to the various female Stoics. But, you know, this is not a philosophy only for men. And as Musonius Rufus says, which we talked about in the interview, "There really is nothing gendered about courage, or justice, or wisdom, or moderation." And so I think it's important that we show just all the different walks of life and styles and approaches that this philosophy can be applied to and with. And Michelle's a great example of that. And so I hope you enjoy this conversation. Today, I thought I would read Seneca's Letter 11 from Letters from a Stoic. This is the Penguin Classics translations, one of my favorites.

• 4:27Ryan Holiday?

  He says, "I see in myself Lucilius not just an improvement, but a transformation, although I would not venture as yet to assure you or even hope that there is nothing left in me needing to be changed. Naturally, there are lots of things about me requiring to be built up, or fined down, or eliminated. Even this, the fact that it perceives the failings it was unaware of in itself before is evidence of change for the better in one's character. In the case of some sick people, it is a matter for congratulations that they come to realize for themselves that they are sick. I should very much like then to share all this sudden metamorphosis of mine with you. Doing so would make me start to feel a sure faith in the friendship that exists between

• 5:08Ryan Holiday?

  us, that true friendship which not hope nor fear nor concern for personal advantage ever sunder's, that friendship in which and for people are ready to die. I can give you plenty of examples of people who have not been lacking a friend but friendship, something that can never happen when mutual inclination draws two personalities together in a fellowship of desire for all that is honorable. Why can't it happen? Because they know that everything, and especially their setbacks, is shared between them. You can't imagine how much an alteration I see each day bringing about in me. Send me to you, you will be saying, the things you have found so effectual. Indeed, I desire to transfer every one of them to you.

• 5:50Ryan Holiday?

  Part of my joy in learning is that it puts me in a position to teach. Nothing, however outstanding and however helpful, will ever give me any pleasure if for the knowledge it is to be for my benefit alone. If wisdom were offered to me on one condition, that I should keep it shut and not divulge it to anyone, I should reject it. There is no enjoying the possession of anything valuable unless someone has someone to share it with. I shall send you accordingly the actual books themselves, and save you a lot of trouble hunting all over for the passages likely to be of use of you. I shall mark the passages so that you can turn straight away to the words I approve and admire." Personal converse, though, and daily intimacy with someone will be of more benefit

• 6:33Ryan Holiday?

  to you than any discourse. You should really be here and on the spot firstly because people believe their eyes more than their ears, and secondly because the road is a long one if one proceeds by way of precepts, but short and effectual if by way of personal example. Cleiantheus would never have been the image of Zeno if he had merely heard him lectured. He lived with him, studied his private life, watched him to see if he lived in accordance with his own principle. Plato, Aristotle, and a host of other philosophers, all destined to take different paths, derived more from Socrates' character than from his words. It was not Epicurus' school but living under the same roof as Epicurus that turned Metadorus, Hermarchus, and Polyanius into great men. And yet I do not summon

• 7:15Ryan Holiday?

  you to my side solely for your sake of your own progress, but for mine own as well, for we shall be of the utmost benefit to each other. Meanwhile, I owe you my daily allowance. I'll tell you what took my fancy in the writings of Hecate today. What progress have I made? I am beginning to be my own friend. This is progress indeed. Such a person will never be alone, and you may be sure he is a friend of all.

• 7:44Ryan Holiday?

  So I was looking at, I was looking, you and I texted each other in late February, and I asked you if you were enjoying the offseason, and you said immensely. Are you still enjoying the offseason?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Well, things have certainly changed since February, haven't they? It's, it's a very different kind of enjoyment. Our family's been sequestered, if you will, together, just the four of us. And the one thing that I certainly have enjoyed is having dinner together every single night. You know, there are no soccer practices, no baseball games. And that has been really cool. And, you know, that's sort of the silver lining in all of this, and we've been playing a lot of cards together. But it's, I am really trying, Ryan, to make the very most of every moment that Were in this because I would hate to come out of it and think, boy, I just wasted a lot of time.

• 8:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure. No, and what's, what's weird for me, and I imagine maybe similar for you as someone who travels a lot for work, I'm like, I can't, even though it's only been like a month and a half, I can't wrap my head around the fact that I used to leave this so often and so regularly.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does feel kind of strange to be in one place for so long. And, you know, I'll go out on walks and think, my gosh, I've got every tree memorized. I've got, you know, there's nothing new here. And that part of it is, is different. But I, I think, you know, look, I've been reading my daily Stoic and, and it reminds me to try to enjoy finding things on my walks that maybe I hadn't seen before. So I keep looking.

• 9:23Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that's, I was gonna ask you, sort of, what, what has been your Stoic practice in this? How, how have you sort of stayed sane and, and, and, you know, not let the uncertainty and chaos and worry of it get to you?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Early on in this, our family had started on vacation. And so there was this feeling of vacation mode. And then it was sort of like, wow, this vacation mode isn't going to stop because we're going to be sitting here and the kids are going to go to school online. And we're just, we have no obligations. But then I said, wait a minute, this is a really good opportunity. So I have been trying to get as much routine in every day as I can, waking up, going for a walk, doing the other things that I like to do to stay fit, having my meals sort of at the same time, going, you know, reading, planning, doing all the little things that normally you don't have time for, or that you complain you don't

• 10:21Speaker 01

  have time for. Suddenly, you've got time for all of it. So there really is no excuse. And so that has kept me really focused. And it does feel a little bit like Groundhog Day sometimes, because the scenery never changes. But

• 10:35Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  I really am trying to just

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Stay on some sort of a schedule that makes a difference, that matters, where I can see some even even minimal results each day.

• 10:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I was thinking about that. It's maybe it's that because the world used to be sort of so normal and structured, you know, like you had school or you had, you know, work started at a certain time or, you know, this is, these are the traffic patterns. You like as individuals, we could have more chaos in and be less ordered and organized. And then with the pandemic, things precisely flipped. Now the world is in complete chaos and disarray. And so we're being reminded that it's like, oh, I have to individually have order and organization, or I'm just going to spin off the planet.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  I think that's such a great point because you easily could just spin off the planet. You could never get out of bed. You could sit around and watch Netflix till the cows come home. You could just, you know, be reckless in a million ways. And so I agree with you. This is kind of forced, forced order on people and it's surreal. It's a little crazed. But I do feel like there is another side and we'll all see each other on the other side, as it were. And I just hope that sooner than later.

• 12:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, or this hoax would say, we either will or we won't. So there's no, you know, there's no reason to get stressed either way.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 12:09Ryan Holiday?

  How has this changed your sort of news habits? I'd be curious, as a journalist, do you, do you watch the news or do you just go like, I know how the sausage is made, so I'm just going to tune this out entirely?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  A little of both. I certainly watch a lot less than I used to. I kind of tune in when I feel as though I might garner something or learn something. But I must tell you as a journalist, and I think that I'll preface this by saying that I'm sure White House correspondents would look upon me as a lowly sports journalist. But I have to say that it's been really disappointing to watch some of these journalists at work. Some of it has been kind of. Are you kidding me? You know, just startlingly bad. And at a time when there are so many good questions to be asked, I am baffled by some of the approaches of these journalists.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  So that part, and you know, it's been interesting too. My husband never watched the news, ever. He just reads papers.

• 13:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  But he would sit down and watch these briefings with me and say, oh, my gosh, I had no idea how inept some of these people are, were. And that's been really disappointing for me. Not that the answers are always what you want them to be either, believe me. But it just, that part of it from a news standpoint has been a little bit depressing.

• 13:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I don't think, I was trying to think about this. I'm not sure there's any institution, whether it's the media or politicians or local governments. Or basically, I was like, I was trying to think, who, who, who have I admired in, in terms of how they've handled this? I would say I've sort of admired a lot of ordinary people. I feel like I've admired chunks of the, the armed forces through this. And then obviously doctors and nurses. And pretty much everyone else has just completely fallen down on the job.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an interesting look at all of this. And, and I mean, and, and yeah, a lot of people all over creation, if you will, have fallen asleep at the wheel. And it's very sad. I have looked in great admiration, as you just mentioned, at the doctors and nurses and first responders. And I'll include in that, by the way, I'm, I'm really grateful to the, to the delivery guys who show up with packages at my door. I, I look at them and I say, you know, thanks for, for hanging in there and doing this. And, and when I go to the grocery store or whatever, Target, Walmart, whatever, I, I look at these people who are checking us all out. And I think they don't have to be doing this. I mean, granted, it's better to have a job than not, but.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  They're really hanging in there and, and the truck drivers and the farmers and these people that keep on keeping on for the sake of the rest of us. And that, that has been inspiring.

• 15:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I gave a talk. So I gave a talk in January at a, at a NATO base in northern Italy that, that a US fighter wing is stationed at. And then like three days later coronavirus hit Italy. And then so they, they had me do a Zoom call last week and we were talking about this Stoic idea of Sympathia that were sort of all part of this larger system. And it's really easy to take people for granted. And, and one of the things I'm hoping comes out of this, and obviously there's economic considerations and political considerations and a whole bunch of factors to weigh. But I do hope that when we, when, when we do go back to dealing with, let's call it less pressing issues, that we can have good discussions

• 15:45Ryan Holiday?

  about minimum wage, about healthcare, about homelessness. Again, understanding that these are complex issues, but with a little deeper understanding for the humanity of the people who are affected by those issues and some wisdom with the fact that like, oh, their fate affects the fate of your family and your livelihood, even if it doesn't seem like you're like, I don't care what the minimum wage is. But it's like, actually, if the minimum wage isn't good, these people don't show up to work during a pandemic and you starve to death.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, there really is a, you can kind of take yourself 30,000 feet back or even further from time to time and think, my goodness, look at how we're intertwined. And, you know, maybe I did take some of this for granted before and I pray I never will again, because I feel so strongly about it now. And I would hate to lose that and have time sort of erode that appreciation. You know, one of the great things about all this time is I've been able to read a lot. I just finished, I finally read John Adams by David McCullough and it's, and he's such a fine historian and the stories are amazing. But one of the things that really

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Kind of was an eye opener about all of it was how much we are like they were in seventeen seventy and beyond. The, the, the media and the way that politicians hammered each other relentlessly, the yellow fever. There were descriptions of these times of yellow fever that sounded like it could have been this right now that we're living in. And it, it's, it's just, it gives you kind of a, I don't know if it's a sense of comfort, like, okay, we've been here before and we can get through this, or a sense of, gosh, are we ever gonna be better than, than this? You know, are we ever gonna, so it's, but it, I, I think those things, again, I think

• 17:41Speaker 01

  you would always say this too. If you're gonna yell and scream about it, that's one thing, and it really doesn't help you out very much. If you really care about a problem, you gotta get in there and work on it. If, if you really are, you don't wanna make a change in it. Yelling and screaming is not gonna do anything. I've observed a lot of things here in this time that I would like to maybe have an impact on. So, but I have remained remarkably calm. And Ryan, I swear, that's because of your books. I read Stillness is the Key again while I was down here. And, and, and this whole stoic approach. It's funny, there's one little hint

• 18:21Speaker 01

  at the end of John Adams where his daughter-in-law, he suggests to his daughter-in-law that she, John Quincy's wife, that she take on some stoic stuff to get her through, you know, the life of a first lady. And she says, oh, I'm not, she describes stoicism as something cold and unfeeling that she just wouldn't be capable of. And, and I thought that's so interesting because so many people think that's what stoicism is. And as you've described countless times, it is not.

• 18:50Ryan Holiday?

  No, I love, I love your point and it ties so great into Marcus Aurelius, right? Because yeah, we do think, we can look back in the past and think like, I don't know, that all the generals in World War II must have been good friends and they were all on the same team. It's like, no, they were stabbing each other in the back and a lot of them were jerks and had enormous egos. And yeah, you think the founding fathers were all friends and everyone was on the same team. And it's like, no, they hated each other and they lied about each other and they were, and yeah, we think like, oh, the American Revolution, like that was what was going on. And it's like, also people's businesses were going through difficulty and there was freak snowstorms and there

• 19:31Ryan Holiday?

  was, yeah, yellow fever. And Marcus Aurelius wrote Meditations during the plague, you know, like we've been unfortunately, humanity, history is, is a loop, you know, and it's just the same crap happening over and over again. And hopefully, yeah, we are getting a little bit better. But yeah, it does, for me, studying history helps me turn down the volume a little bit on, on, you know, the media telling you, oh, it's a constitutional crisis and this is not normal. And it's like, actually, it is pretty normal.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I was really astonished by some of the things that these politicians did to each other and said about each other and had published about each other. I mean, flat out unbelievable lies. And it was just really, like you said, you think about that time and it's kind of this idyllic, you know, what you see in paintings and it is eye opening, but it's also, like you said, it just kind of makes you feel like, okay, we've been here before and this too shall pass.

• 20:35Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I was, I was curious about this idea of Stoicism being cold. And one of the reasons I think your sort of public advocacy about Stoicism is so great is that there is this, that stereotype. And then there's also kind of the stereotype that it's, it's masculine, or it's bro-y, or it's only for men. I would just be curious, like, maybe you have thoughts on why that's not correct?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  It's just such a universal, the notions, the ideas, the philosophy itself applies to any situation, any situation. And I think

• 21:09Speaker 01

  You know, it happens to be that most of the Stoics were men. And so I think people just naturally think that these things, the ideas apply to war. They apply to these sort of masculine endeavors. But the fact, at least for me, is that they can apply to anything. They can apply to the way you raise your children. They can apply to the way you do your job, keep house, any of it. And when I say keep house, I'm just thinking of, okay, you know, I want to make the bed every morning because I want that to be part of my routine or whatever. And so, yeah, I would strongly encourage any woman out there, and I do all the time, to take this.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  In fact, I think one of the most important things that I've taken away from Stoicism is this notion of if you're hurt, if your feelings get hurt, well, part of that's your decision. And I hear, I do hear more and more women saying that to their friends, to their kids. And it's something that I preach all the time to my own children. You can choose how to respond to this. What does this person really mean in your life? Why are you handing over so much of your power to them? Why are you allowing this jerk to control your emotions about yourself? And I think that that is something that is just universal. I think the world is just catching up.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  I've started reading some Winston Churchill biographies. And he wanted to write a book about will a woman, or an article about will a woman ever become Prime Minister of England? And no publisher would take that idea on because it was just too fanciful. Now, this was not that long ago, Ryan. Right. You know? So I think that people haven't viewed women in a role of strength and sturdiness and people who are full of philosophical strength or thought. And I think that that, I hope that that's changing. And so, yeah, I would so strongly, and I encourage to a lot of my female friends

• 23:17Speaker 01

  and family members to please read the books because I truly do think it applies to anyone.

• 23:24Ryan Holiday?

  I was just, I was writing about this in the new book, cause we were, it's a series of biographies of the Stoic figures. And so it was really important that there be, you know, some female figures, but it was, it was hard because in the ancient world, there really weren't any. Cato's daughter, Portia is really the only one we could talk about. But it's interesting because Musonius Rufus, who's Epictetus's teacher, you know, says like, look, he's like, you don't care what, he's like, you don't care what gender your dog is, or what gender your horse is, like they, any male or female can do the job, right? He's like, there's no, there's nothing sex, there's nothing, virtue has nothing to do with one's sex organs, right? It's totally, it's totally separate than

• 24:06Ryan Holiday?

  that. And I was, it struck me that it's like, obviously there have been female Stoics throughout history, and then just plenty of people who didn't know they were being, plenty of women who didn't know they were being Stoic, but were embodying the ideas. But it's almost like the ultimate Stoic, the ultimate testament to their Stoicism was that they didn't demand the spotlight, they didn't demand credit, they were just quietly doing what they thought was right. You know, it's like this sort of unsung, being an unsung hero of history is, is actually probably more impressive and more Stoic than being the emperor.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  You kind of just described Abigail Adams to a T.

• 24:45Ryan Holiday?

  Totally.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  You know, she was that person for John Adams, and she never sought any spotlight. She just wanted to be virtuous. And the things that she accomplished, and the things that she did, and the things that she put aside, and for him, and in service of the country, it's really remarkable. And so, yeah, she probably didn't know she was a Stoic, but I think she was one.

• 25:12Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I mean, can you imagine living with John Adams? He seems, it's like he's had such terrible anxiety and ego sometimes. He seemed like he's probably a hypochondriac. He couldn't have been pleasant to live with.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Only very rarely, I suppose.

• 25:28Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I was curious about your job and we can, we can wrap up, but how are you? It struck me that, you know, a lot of people are in this sort of career limbo right now. And although your job is at a very high level, you're kind of in one. No one knows whether there'll be a season or what that season will look like. How are you thinking about football?

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, at first, you know, we were all planning on being in Tokyo for the Olympics.

• 25:55Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, right.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  And, you know, so that was the first shoe to drop. And that's been postponed, obviously, for a year or so. A year will go by very quickly, but, and for that, it was, it just made all the sense in the world. It was, of course, the right move to make. The football season, it's really interesting and it really depends on who you talk to. You try to get a sense of, okay, will there be a season? What will it look like? Will there be fans in the stadium? If they're televised, are we all there? What does a sideline reporter do in that instance?

• 26:28Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  You know, and how, and how do we prep? Cause we used to go to practice every Friday and are we going to be allowed at practice? Are we going to have to take a test on our way into practice? Are we, you know, are we going to do all our meetings via Zoom or conference call? How is all of this going to work? I remain a little more optimistic, honestly.

• 26:48Ryan Holiday?

  Really?

• 26:49Speaker 01

  I don't know how they're going to pull it off, but I think they're gonna, they're going to try really hard to pull it off. It's going to require a lot of extra little details and layers of preparation that have never before been required. And I'm talking about primarily this, this testing notion of probably having to test guys almost every day or every other day or whatever, and before they come into the facility. So it's really, it's really going to be interesting. You know, as we're recording this, it's the day of the, of the NFL draft beginning. And so that going on, I think is going to get so many fans watching and wondering and thinking,

• 27:35Speaker 01

  okay, this is all so exciting and we're seeing these teams get rebuilt and replenished. Now what? And everyone's really going to want an answer, but I don't think we're going to know it. Oh, maybe until the end of June and maybe not even then.

• 27:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's, uh, we were talking about institutions that haven't, you know, stood up to the test. Well, I really like Tyler Cowen, who, who does marginal revolution. He was like, the NBA is such a great example of an institution doing well. He's like, I want to put the NBA in charge of like addressing climate change or healthcare. He's like, they were early to it. They've been transparent about it. They did it before it was legally mandated. And, and I saw, you know, yesterday Sean Payton was like, we're not doing anything in the off season. He's like, take care of your families and come back in the best shape of your life. And it was like, oh, that like, actually weirdly sports, which is not always, you know, sort of a moral force for good in the universe,

• 28:33Ryan Holiday?

  is kind of doing the right thing and showing us what the right thing looks like in some cases.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, in some cases, I think you're right. And Sean Payton, who actually had the virus, you know, is probably really more sensitive to it than a whole lot of people. And we're just starting to hear about some guys in the NFL, Von Miller, for one of Denver, who, who have contracted the disease. And, but, you know, but look, I would also say that I know these players and they, they're willing to risk being concussed every other week. You know, these guys, they don't care about, to me, I can understand, I could just, I'm visualizing being in a conversation with, with a player and having them go, man, let's go, we don't, we're healthy, we don't care, you know?

• 29:20Speaker 01

  But at the same time, there are certainly cooler heads and steadying hands that will make the right calls, I think. Because this is just, it's too big and it's too important, this whole disease. And We gotta handle it right. I am fascinated by some voices out there who think that there has been overreached, that we have overreacted. I don't, I, we won't know until the whole story's been told and it's going to take some time, but this is just a fascinating time and a fascinating push and pull of people wanting to be careful, wanting to be safe, wanting to take care of each other, and also wanting to get back to normal life as soon

• 30:04Speaker 01

  as they can. So it's, the dynamic is fascinating to me.

• 30:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and nobody said that living through history was fun. I think that's the other thing. We look back at history and we think, oh, Watergate must have been fascinating. Actually, it was, you know, terrifying in some, in some respects, right? Or, or the Great Depression wasn't just those black and white photos you saw. Like, people didn't know what was coming next. And, and we're in a moment that probably surpasses both of those things. And, you know, you could insert any international example as well. Like, this is, this is history, and it, history is filled by people making good decisions and bad decisions and conflicting interests and good leaders and unfortunately, lots of bad leaders. And, and, and we're just sort of seeing that all play out, I think.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Just like, as you said, history is a loop. It's so remarkable to me that we are living in this time. My mom lived through the Depression. She was there for post-World War II. She talks about some of the things that she went through, and I sit there and go, wow. So we keep telling our kids who are 14 and 11, you guys might want to take some notes and keep a diary during all of this, because your kids and your grandchildren will be asking you about this.

• 31:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, that, that's, and that was going to be my last question. How have you talked to your kid? Like, something my wife and I are sort of like, obviously, we want to talk about it, but then we realize every time we're talking about it, we can see stress manifest itself in our kid, and suddenly, bad behavior happened, you know, or, or like, acting out happened, because he doesn't know what's happening. He just knows, like, this is not normal. How have you sort of? As you've tried to keep an even keel, but then also deal with what you've got to deal with, how do you sort of both prevent that from trickling down, but also talk to your kids and tell them what's happening?

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Well, I'm, I have, you've got little ones and mine are not so little anymore. And certainly my 14 year old is well aware of the world out there. And he's, he's very opinionated about it and interested in it. And so, you know, he, he, he's fine with all this. They've actually both been really great and, you know, have applied themselves to the online courses that they have to take and all of that kind of stuff. I think that we have been just very plain spoken about it and just said, here's where we are. We don't know where it's going to end, but we're in a good, we're in a better situation than a lot of people. And don't forget that we're very fortunate. And so we're going to give back in other ways and we're going to do our part. And that's what we're going to do.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  And we're going to just keep calm and carry on, if you will. And, and, and, and they seem to be adapting really, really well to that. I think we are in a good place in terms of their ages. It's got to be a lot more difficult with young ones like yours.

• 32:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. But, but yeah, I think in a weird way, the upside is also it's an easy and immediate sort of refreshing sort of connection to the present. It's like you could watch the worst news story and then they want to go in the pool or they want to play trains or, you know? And so I think that's, that's the other, the kids are also responsibility, kids are a responsibility, but they're also, you know, a sort of a wonderful sort of pass to another universe.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Oh, no question. And it's such a great stage when they want to play trains, believe me. It's just, it's such a great stage. You have, you have a lot to, to think about and concern yourself with, but you are so right. They, they provide kind of, they are the fabric of your family and it's, it brings a lot of joy when there's otherwise a lot of pain.

• 33:53Ryan Holiday?

  Amazing. Well, thank you so much.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  It's my pleasure always.

• 33:58Ryan Holiday?

  If you like the podcast that we do here and you want to get it via email every morning, you can sign up at dailystoic.com/email.