20Growth: How to Build a $100M Growth Engine: Lessons from Wispr Flow and Superhuman | Why You Should Do Paid Ads Today and How To Do Them | How to Build the Best Referral Programs and How to Crush UGC with Matt Swulinski

Matt Swulinski is one of the best growth leaders in AI. He is currently Head of Growth at Viktor, the Accel-backed AI coworker. Previously, he was Head of Growth at Wispr Flow, where he was marketing hire #1 and built the growth function from pre-launch to millions of users. Matt also built the AI-powered marketing OS that automated 100 newsletter sponsorships a month and enabled a lean team to scale dramatically faster. Before Wispr Flow, Matt worked in growth at Superhuman. AGENDA: 00:00 Why SaaS Founders Should Steal the E-Commerce Growth Playbook 04:47 How Does PLG Change When AI Agents Become the Customer? 07:46 When Should an Early-Stage Founder Start Spending on Paid Growth? 10:36 How Do You Build the Tracking Stack to Know Whether Paid Is Working? 17:38 How Much Should You Spend on Creative—and How Do You Produce 500 Ads a Month? 23:10 How Long Should You Test Paid—and How Do You Scale Meta, Google and YouTube? 39:38 How Do You Build Referral, Paywall and AEO Loops That Compound? 49:46 How Do You Hire and Structure an AI-Native Growth Team? 1:04:27 Which Growth Channels Are Most Underrated—and Most Overrated? 1:09:28 How Do You Build an AI Operating System That Makes Your Work Compound?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Harry Stebbings?

  Probably fire most of your marketing team.

• 0:01Speaker 01

  My philosophy is the e-comm playbook is the right playbook for SaaS. Every single cent needs to equal a purchase or an add to cart. Paid is the easiest way to validate that you have PLG. I say there's the core three of any acquisition engine. You have Meta, Google and Lifecycle. You probably need at least 400 to 500 new creatives a month. We have kids that are like 17, 18, 19 that are making 20, 30K a month, just making a couple of ads for us.

• 0:29Harry Stebbings?

  This is 20 Growth with me, Harry Stebbings. So 20 Growth is the monthly show where we sit down with the biggest and best growth leaders to discuss how they grow incredible products to millions of users. Well, today we have one of the best, Matt Swulinski. He's worked at Superhuman, he's worked at Whisperflow, and now he's just joined Excel backed Victor.com. And he's looking to make it third time. I wouldn't say lucky because he is a master of growth. Look at Superhuman and Whisper. These are two of the fastest growing product-led growth products. And this is a masterclass in how you grow really freaking fast in a world of AI. But before we dive into the show today, we used AlphaSense on an investment that helped us close an $8 million deal.

• 1:13Harry Stebbings?

  $8 million, baby, that's a lot of money. That's why I'm genuinely excited to have them as a partner on 20VC. AlphaSense combines AI with one of the world's deepest libraries of market intelligence, including expert interviews, broker research, earnings calls, company filings and real-time news. Every answer is grounded in this incredibly trusted evidence and fully traceable to the original source, which is so important. So you can make really high conviction decisions with confidence. But the best part, they're building super analyst and always on AI analyst. So instead of starting your day with another search, you'll start with work you already done, your coverage monitored, the important developments surfaced and your investment brief already waiting for you. See for yourself, head to alphacense.com/20vc.

• 1:58Harry Stebbings?

  That's alpha hyphen sense.com/20vc. While AlphaSense sharpens the strategy, MongoDB scales the product. MongoDB has always been the database developers love. Well, now it's the data platform AI agents need. Agents need accurate context, fast. MongoDB stores, searches and reasons over your data in real-time. JSON native database, vector search and Voyage AI embeddings, all in one place. One system instead of 10, no data pipelines to maintain. Oh, this sounds too good to be true. Build and scale from your first user to billions of vectors. Run on any cloud, on-prem or your laptop even.

• 2:41Harry Stebbings?

  That's why 75% of the Fortune 100 run their most critical apps on MongoDB, moving trillions of dollars every single day. And it's why AI native companies like 11 Labs run 40 million agents on MongoDB. So if you're building in AI, MongoDB for startups helps you move faster with Atlas and Voyage AI credits and dedicated support. Don't build agents that answer once and forget. Build agents that remember and learn from your real-time data. Go to mongodb.com/agents. That's M-O-N-G-O-D-B.com/agents. While MongoDB scales the product, Framer scales the story. Framer is a complete website platform, not just a builder.

• 3:23Harry Stebbings?

  From early-stage startups to Fortune 500s, teams build on Framer because changes take minutes instead of days. Here's what I love. Framer is the pro AI website builder for creators, teams and businesses that care enough to get every detail right. The agents close the gap between AI-generated ideas and production-ready website work because it all happens where the site actually lives. It lands on the canvas, stays editable and can be published when the team is ready. So you can build custom code components, create and manage CMS content, optimize SEO settings and ship everything all in one place. The agents bring speed and scale. You bring taste, judgment and control. It's an enterprise-level solution too.

• 4:04Harry Stebbings?

  Premium hosting, enterprise-grade security, 99.99% uptime SLAs, which is why the world's leading brands like Perplexity and Miro build in Framer. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started by building for free today at framer.com/20vc for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/20vc for 30% off. Framer.com/20vc. Rules and restrictions may apply. You have now arrived at your destination. Matt, it is so good to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining me, Matt.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks for being here.

• 4:43Harry Stebbings?

  Now, you've worked with some of the best companies from Superhuman to Whisper, now with Victor, and we've seen these companies and a huge amount of SaaS companies rise with the product-led growth, PLG motion. And now we're entering a world of agents. What changes in the growth world when we shift from humans to agents with product-led growth?

• 5:04Speaker 01

  It's a great question. I think, I mean, all of the startups I've worked with have been PLG, right? And I think in a world of agents, there's definitely a layer where PLG still matters because PLG assumes you have a perfect self-serve funnel to the human. And in the same way, you're definitely going to want to optimize it for, how is an agent doing research? How is it picking the tools and the APIs that it's actually using? And I think it just takes the same framing and diligence to why the product already worked from the human end and just understand how are agents making decision-making? So the best companies in PLG focus right now will also be best positioned, in my opinion, for the agentic layer of essentially decisions being made without that human in the loop when tools are being selected for certain tasks.

• 5:47Harry Stebbings?

  When you look back at, say, Superhuman, if we go back in time chronologically, it grew very kind of craftsman-like with founder referrals. What's your reflections or lessons from that experience on Superhuman's growth that you've taken with you?

• 6:03Speaker 01

  The tastemaking of what it means to create a strong product, that for me was born while I was at Superhuman. Because at the end of the day, no matter whether, you know, if you've used Superhuman, you've likely stayed using Superhuman just because every little element of that product is hyper-refined to make you want to continue using it. But I think the difference of what was the early scale of Superhuman, where it was super founder-led, word-of-mouth referral, there was essentially an asymptote that the product hit, where they had to follow a different playbook. Like this was, you know, three years ago, roughly. Back then, what was SaaS, now we call AI SaaS. Everyone was running more of the, you know, just PLG motion, referral, word-of-mouth, without doing paid. And they were laughing, like, you know, e-comm's been doing, you know, the UGC programs,

• 6:48Speaker 01

  hundreds of thousands of ads, like paid ad spend is the way to drive performance. And the resistance was definitely there while I was at Superhuman. But, you know, seeing what, you know, I've been able to do alongside a great team at Whisper and now Victor, my philosophy is that the e-comm playbook is the right playbook for SaaS. Because if you look at e-comm, you have every single cent needs to equal a purchase or an add to cart. You have hundreds of UGC creators, variety of creative, and you also have a ton of channels that you're essentially balancing to showcase the entirety of the brand. That's the model that I took and applied at the end before the Grammarly acquisition at Superhuman to scale paid and then follow that exact same motion for Whisperflow.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  That's really what put it on the map and got it to where it is. Because like we were talking about before, distribution to me is the only mode. And you have to have that strong of a playbook when it comes to marketing. Because like in today's world, that's the only way to succeed.

• 7:46Harry Stebbings?

  Dude, I'm gonna love this show because most people say the same thing. And what everyone tells me is that, no, no, you should wait to do paid. You should wait to do paid. It's a dangerous drug that you can get hooked on. When is the right time, do you think?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Right away, right? So like, at the end of the day, paid is the easiest way to validate that you have PLG, that you have a product that can scale in any way, shape or form, right? Like, there's a ton of narrative that like focus on brand, go organic content, build all that base, that just takes too much time. Yes, do that motion while also doing all of paid. Because you can refine messaging, do creative testing, test your funnels, test your positioning, all within a week on paid. How long is that going to take you? If you do some content writing, you talk about it on a podcast, you see if it sticks, you're gonna do some user interviews, great, do all of that. But then you have a much faster engine of validation on the other side on the paid amplification end.

• 8:44Harry Stebbings?

  When we actually break that down, if I'm an early-stage founder, what should I actually do? How much money should I take to spend on paid? Should I do it on one channel versus 10 channels? If I'm an early-stage company, I don't have mega budget. What do I actually do?

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I mean, I would say it's definitely start with what I say is the core two. I say there's the core three of any acquisition engine. You have Meta, Google and Lifecycle. And obviously like your site and all the rest is in the middle. Because you have your strong video intent platforms, both in Meta and like YouTube ads. You have the search intent of like people not knowing your product exists, but they're searching for something, right, via the keywords. And then I add in Lifecycle as well, because if you don't have a net to like nudge people and show up in the right place, email, SMS, whatever it is, push if you have an app. You want those three things spun up because you can scale to your first million, 10 million ARR just off of those three things. And then obviously, you know, you're investing into the site, you're investing into founder-led content.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  There's like the other things in there, but in paid, just focus on Meta and Google and you'll totally be fine. Everyone's like, oh, we have to do TikTok and Reddit. Like, there comes a time and place to add in a million things. Because in the same way that like a lot of people get lost with agents, is they like start doing a million things with agents and they do them all poorly. Same thing here, right? If you do a million channels and do them all poorly, it's not gonna help you out.

• 10:05Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, so we have Meta, we have Google, we have Lifecycle. And we start spending, I don't know, let's just put 100 grand on that. So we've raised a, if we raised a $3 million seed round, is 100 grand fair?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on like your average revenue per user and the unit economics, right? Because it depends, how long is your funnel? What is that 100K gonna give you? But usually I'd say like, yeah, if you raise, let's say, three to five million, that's like a good start budget to essentially validate that if we put money, people are gonna actually want my product.

• 10:32Harry Stebbings?

  What should we be looking for then? We have 100K and we put it across Matter and Google, I should say those two. What is a sign that it is working versus not working?

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'll also frame, I think, a massive gap in the SaaS space where like I'm waiting for startups to be made that fill this gap. So I'll zoom out and if you look at e-comm, there are companies like Triple Whale and Elevar that have existed for many years. And what those tools do is Triple Whale is essentially a mutual exclusivity platform that tells you, okay, you add a pixel to your website, it's out of the box, you plug in all your ad spend and then it tells you, because there's usually overlap, but if you run Meta Ads in Google, they're double counting, right? And then lifecycle is also triple counting at that point. So what a tool like that does for e-comm is say, great, I plugged in all my variables. Tell me exactly what is driving revenue from a new customer basis. And you have the out of the box, you don't have to set anything up. And the other side is conversion tracking, which is like add to cart, purchase, server side.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  There's like a ton of technical stuff on on tracking, that's just like a massive headache. But there's a solution in e-comm that is out of the box, takes 15 minutes to set up and it's done. You don't have to think about it. For SaaS, completely different world, because you have to have an engineering team that builds this from scratch, right? When it comes to analytics, there's a DB, there's a BI layer, so maybe you're using ClickHouse and Hex, Last Click, you know, First Click, Attribution. All of this is homegrown at every single startup. There is no out of the box SaaS that fills that. And that's why all of the companies that struggle don't do that first. You have the right martech stack to understand if we're spending, what is actually moving the needle? Because the platforms won't tell you, because you have the wrong setup for conversion tracking, you don't have measurement

• 12:10Speaker 01

  and you're spending into the air. And I'd say 90% of companies don't do that as a first step. Before you spend your first cent, have everything set up.

• 12:19Harry Stebbings?

  How do I set that up if we don't have it in SaaS? How do I set it up as a founder?

• 12:23Speaker 01

  This is what I essentially did both at Superhuman, at Whisperflow, now at Victor, is essentially coming in and defining what that looks like, right? And it comes to have a strong analytics leader as well as like a strong analytics dev that can essentially set up all of that on your website, set up all of that inside of your product to make sure that you are, because most people stop at the, we have analytics to track our product. Are all the marketing platforms getting the same signals? There's like, there's a thing called match rate on like Meta and then there's like a enrichment score on on Google. If you're not maxing that out, you're like missing 50%, like you're, it's just ghost people. Meta doesn't see them, it's not attributing conversions.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  And the way that the platforms work in today's environment is each platform's algorithm does what you tell it. So let's say we have poor conversion tracking that doesn't track when someone subscribes to our product. And it's like a 50/50 match, right? And if I optimize for that subscription, the higher volume amount of events I have, the more data it has of what a subscriber looks like. And when I optimize for that, Meta will give me more of those people. But if you have poor conversion tracking, Meta doesn't know who those people are and it just randomly targets people. And you'll have a super high CAC, you'll say, ah, paid doesn't work for me. I'd say most of the time, people haven't done the actual setup correctly before they can say paid doesn't work for me.

• 13:42Harry Stebbings?

  So we get that analytics leader, we get that set up in place. What are we looking for then? What is good metrics and what metrics should we be optimizing for? Is it acquisition, is it retention, is it spend?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  When you're first getting started, the main thing that you optimize for is like, it's the most important event to you as a business. So at SaaS, it's the subscription or let's say the the start trial or in Whisperflow's example, it was, you know, the download, right? Super upper funnel event, because we had a desktop client and an iOS app, made it super hard to track. But you know, pick what that event is and essentially validate that, okay, we spend 100K. What is traffic cost? What is our acquisition cost per user, right? And just focus on acquisition cost, because PLG and the product team are going to focus on retention. As long as you bring in the quality user, right? And that's why over time, you'll probably change the conversion action to be what the most important event is, right? So for example, at Victor, it's like a pretty hard funnel to go through.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  You either be an admin in Slack or let's say you're a smaller team and anyone can add apps or you need to be a tenant in Microsoft Teams. You go through onboarding and then you add Victor into Slack or Microsoft Teams, that's our conversion action. Super down funnel, but we know that if we optimize for that and like because we're super high ARPU, we can have a couple thousand dollars in CAC and the unit economics still work. But you need to like take the time to find that out, right? Like what does success look like at at the channel level? But it's just acquisition in the beginning.

• 15:05Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, so in the beginning, it's like cost per download.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:08Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, cost per download. And so if we're thinking about good ratios, like we hear like five to one CAC to LTV or LTV to CAC and obviously, in the early days, is one to one okay? What is okay, what is good, what is great, what is worrying?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  I think it depends how much you've raised, to be honest.

• 15:24Harry Stebbings?

  If you've raised a lot, you just burn a shitload doing one to one and that's okay?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I mean, like, like we were saying, right? Distribution is everything in today's market. There's, you know, you you open up X every day and there's like 100 new products, five that are in your category, two that have absolutely just cloned your website, right? This happens every single day. And the only way you outcompete them is is distribution. Essentially, you want to run one to one to essentially get as many users using your product and believing in you as soon as possible. You don't want to do it below that, because then then you are burning money. And then you have to analyze the website, the funnel and try and get it to that one to one. And then I think there comes a room of scale where you have enough other channels, sponsorships, you're pumping on AEO and all this other stuff starts to lift your LTV to CAC ratio.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  And I think everyone in terms of economics is trying to shoot for like a three to one. And it also changes depending on what kind of SaaS you are, right? Like LTV to CAC is usually not enough. You want to probably look at like LTV gross profit, specifically if you're, you have token cost, because the biggest cost item is is usage at the end of the day. So the economics are a little different depending like a Whisper or a Victor.

• 16:32Harry Stebbings?

  How does that change then with a Whisper and a Victor where you do have a token cost being much more significant than you had in a SaaS world where there were no token costs?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  The biggest differences are first in that like Meta and Google are not optimized for like B2B SaaS usage based products. Like they go absolutely nuts with a, so you're telling me there's a predictive revenue of a one person could be a 50,000, you know, annual contract, while another person will be 50, right? There's just like huge variance depending on, single person can be a high user and like the the algorithm has no idea what to do with that. But but the other side of it is, we obviously have way higher average revenue per user, but you know, average cost per user is also higher, right? So you essentially want to make sure that you actually have a good grapple on what cost is. And a lot of people were like, oh, well, that's my anthropic bill. But what about modal, what about inference cost? What about all the other things that is allowing you to service your products?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  And like have a good finance leader that's going to be able to essentially gut check, yeah, you've been missing these cost items, this is what you should be optimizing for, so we don't burn money. And that's a lot, I think a mistake a lot of people make is not doing that analysis at first.

• 17:36Harry Stebbings?

  How much should I spend on creative for these paid channels? If we're going to do Instagram marketing, we should do, we need, we need a video, we need creative, we need to, how much should I spend on that? Because that can't be an afterthought.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say you probably want to be spending, not at scale, but in the beginning, as much in ad spend on creative. Because creative is everything in today's environment. And like people have, you know, heard this buzzword thrown around, there's an update in Meta that was called Andromeda that essentially changed the targeting algorithm where the creative is the targeting. So what Meta did is stop telling me in audience settings in the campaigns who people are. We're going to analyze the creative and based on who we know you're trying to target, we will find those people for you. So essentially that removed like all the media buyers that were like tinkering campaigns and had strategies of how to do it, that went out the door. And their whole job had to be creative strategy. So in the beginning, you'll see this for Victor as well as Whisper, we have hundreds of creators

• 18:31Speaker 01

  that are doing different demos, different use cases to different audiences. And that's the only way you can scale spend. Let's say you have 100K Meta budget, you probably need at least 400 to 500 new creatives a month. Otherwise, you're going to plateau, you're going to get outcompeted.

• 18:48Harry Stebbings?

  So how do you do 400 to 500 new creatives a month?

• 18:51Speaker 01

  You have a creator program where like, you know, at Victor, we have our own creator program where we give a percentage of ad spend to people to essentially create ads for us. We obviously have some storytelling and they use the product, so it takes, you know, a little bit to acquire them. But once they do that, they create three to four videos a week and we have a couple hundred of them. We work with five agencies, we also have our in-house creative team. So again, e-comm model, e-comm has been doing this for over a decade. That is how the entirety of e-comm has functioned. UGC, creator programs, hundreds of thousands of variations of creative. And they've been doing that and that's like in their DNA. SaaS had to grow up to this and like because I come from that world, that was the the instilling factor that I always brought in.

• 19:31Harry Stebbings?

  Again, I'm a startup founder, you're my advisor and angel investor, well done. This is going to be a very unprofitable investment for you. How do I create a UGC network? I'm a startup, I need 300 to 400 creatives.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  There are a million agencies now, right? Like in all of these gaps and opportunities, the sheer amount of like aggregation service based businesses, there's, there's hundreds of thousands of UGC agencies.

• 19:55Harry Stebbings?

  But most of them are shit. We get a lot of people, every single day I get 100 plus messages being like, I can create clips for you, I can create clips for you. What should I do as a startup founder to know which agency or marketplace to work with versus not?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it comes from like asking peers, who do you use? And that's the nice thing about creating UGC, it doesn't actually go on their page. So they can represent every brand, right? And they can, they can do ads for every competitor as long as, you know.

• 20:20Harry Stebbings?

  Ah, okay, okay. So in this case, I'm creating it for you and then you use it.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  I pump a million dollars on that ad. And it never shows up on your, on your channel, right? It's just pumping creative videos and then, yeah, you can also run partnership ads, those work really well. Like you should have probably 30% roughly of your spend going to someone posts in collaboration with, put spend behind that. But yeah, like it could be someone that has no experience, like the kids are making bank nowadays doing UGC for brands that will pay them a percentage of ad spend. Like we have kids that are like 17, 18, 19, that are making 20, 30K a month, just making a couple ads for us. And like the nice thing is, if we keep spending on it and it's a great ad, they don't have to make another one for a while.

• 21:04Harry Stebbings?

  Have you found eighty percent of the ad revenue comes from twenty percent of the creative?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent, right? And that's also just how the algorithm also works is it finds the best ad and it pumps all the spend at it.

• 21:16Harry Stebbings?

  Have you found there's commonalities in those twenty percent best performing? Be it a girl versus a boy, be it direct camera versus not, be it, I don't know if you've seen this, but the trend of like cutting things in a kitchen whilst talking about something, making a coffee whilst talking about something. It's a hook.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so I think pattern disruption as well as like getting you to stop. Cause like the sheer amount of content that we digest in a day, if it all looks the same, then you're gonna get drowned out. So the best creative essentially is like a rough shake of the camera that like seems like it's a mistake, but it got your attention, right? And stuff like that works really well where it's just like a messy start and like, oh, hey, yeah, like, what's up? Like, and then talk about the product. But at the end of the day, the key thing around creative is not the one creative. It's the package of all of your assets together. They have to be different to the algorithm. They have to look and feel different. So different ages, different genders, different settings, different hooks. If you only focus on this is what works and you pump just that, performance will crater.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  You need to constantly be creating net new, completely wild, weird ideas. Otherwise, your acquisition costs will start to rise.

• 22:23Harry Stebbings?

  To what extent will that be replaced by AI creative? We had Cliff Weitzman, who's the founder of Speechly on the show, and he spoke about how essentially he did it once. And then they use AI to change background, change his clothing and actually one turned into thousands of variations.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's the superpower of AI in creative is spinning up variations. But if you look at the like full videos that are AI, they're slop. Like you can tell immediately that it's an AI video. I think there's a place for it, maybe five percent of your account. It's kind of just like a weird AI videos that just like are diverse. But I think that's, that's the secret sauce is being able to create variety. In no way, shape or form is anything in creative to the point where you can replace real people.

• 23:05Harry Stebbings?

  I also don't buy that the algos don't denigrate AI content versus human content.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  I agree. Yeah, you're a hundred percent right.

• 23:12Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, so we've got this hundred K and we've got this UGC network. It's not really working. What does not really working look like? It's not doing the one to one. How long should I give it? Should we do this for three months straight? Should we do it for six months?

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you'll usually be able to say that like, if you just get started, the campaigns have to warm up. There are like certain things you have to have already in place. So like we said, you have your analytics, you have your conversion tracking, let it just run. And of course, you already have to have customers coming in the door. And ideally, that's why like PLG and product excellence is still the beginning step, right? Like have a product that people genuinely love and they want to tell their friends about. That's already happening, then your conversion tracking is, is working on your website or your app or whatever. And you get to fifty conversions. Then you can start paid because that's like the, the minimum line of whatever your conversion action is, that the algorithm is gonna say, okay, I have enough data to understand who your target, you know, best customer is.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  And then I'd say within two to three weeks, if you launch a campaign and go through a couple, like you'll do two or three iteration cycles of we launched some creative, this worked, this didn't. Why? Okay, let's throw some diverse stuff, let's do some variations. You probably want to give it a full three months, but you'll, you'll be able to say, yes, I can start printing money today in like two to three weeks. Or I have to go to the drawing board on all of these things, because there are a lot of moving pieces, right? It's the ad creative, the ad copy, what is the landing experience? What is your messaging on that landing experience? Is your page speed good? Are your screenshots in the app store actually sensible, right? Like all of those things are micro levers that compound. So like you also, you need to be refining everything along the way as you spend.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Otherwise, also things will plateau.

• 24:58Harry Stebbings?

  Said a couple of things there, which I just need a bit of help on. The landing experience? What, what, what do you mean there and what should I know as a founder?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I mean, like a lot of people have really poor like UI UX or website designer branding, like absolutely awful, right? And like-

• 25:14Harry Stebbings?

  I don't want to throw shade, but have you seen Posthog? I go on their site and I'm like, I have no idea what's going on. This is like, this is like Beijing's version of UI.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  The thing is, is that's like a pattern disrupt thing for them and they know who their target audience is. And the target audience appreciates the weirdness.

• 25:30Harry Stebbings?

  Oh yeah, James is amazing and it works and it's a brilliant company and like phenomenal. But I just look at it and go.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  I mean, on the flip side, it's just like, okay, like, do you know what your traffic mix is? Is your site mobile optimized? The sheer amount of sites I see that the main CTA is like a scroll and a half away. Come on, like that's the, that's the first thing that you start with, that like a basic audit will show you, right? And that's what I mean by the landing experience. If I read nothing else but your headline, do I know what you do? Like it's hard sometimes to explain what this, you know, crazy AI SaaS niche product does. Focus on your messaging, actually have something that tells a user. If they didn't move their thumb, they didn't do anything, I want to try that out, right? Like go through that proxy. Same thing with the creative, same thing with the copy. Like that's a, that's a frame that you want to take throughout the entire kind of funnel.

• 26:15Harry Stebbings?

  Page speed really matters?

• 26:16Speaker 01

  So page speed matters because it depends obviously who and where your target customers are, right? Like, so like US, UK, like, you know, we have good data and it'll be fine. But like where page speed really starts to matter is both AEO and SEO. It is one of the core elements in what gets your site to rank in, let's say, a top 10 position on Google. And then same thing, if for example, a bot crawler goes to your website and it's a cheap call to say, how long did your page come to load? And if you're on a low essentially ranking from like A to F, the average person in the world will probably not load your site immediately. So like any, any second improvement is a drastic jump in conversion and the, just the numbers show that, right?

• 26:57Speaker 01

  And even though it seems like, oh yeah, like it loads in half a second versus 200 milliseconds, it does make a difference.

• 27:02Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, so we have this hundred K, we've done three months. I, I, I'm really enjoying this because as I said, for me, it's nice to follow the chronology. You have a hundred K, it's going well, I think. How do I know whether to pour fuel on the fire, keep the budget as it is and just keep testing, but in a more measured fashion? Or uh-uh, this is not fucking working.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  You want to chart your total spend to your acquisition and how elastic it is. There's always going to be a lag where like I spend today and then I convert to paid in 14 days, right? Let's say, right? And that's like, we're looking at two main things, like revenue is the most important thing from an ARR standpoint, because we're in SaaS. As I spend up, does that ARR also spike, right? And how elastic that relationship is will immediately tell you, oil on the fire? Or let's pump the brakes because as we spend up, this is a very common thing that you'll hear, how incremental is your spend? It's a question you should ask relatively early because once things are working, it's really easy just to like dial it up to 13 on a scale of 10.

• 28:01Harry Stebbings?

  Sure.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  And what ends up happening, if you're not very diligent, all of that additive spend could have not been there and you would have gotten the same results. And then you're just giving money to Meta and Google, right? And there's that fine line. And that's why I'd say like true people that understand this and growth are on the rarer side. Because like there's usually like I am a expert in Meta or I'm an expert in some other channel. But being able to sit above the whole thing and say, okay, here's how the interrelationship of this much spend here, this many sponsorships, this many, you know, podcast features, this is how, you know, how much PR we're pushing. All of that interrelationship is how you essentially ensure the most elastic spend to revenue impact. And that's like further down the hundred K, but that's like the, that's the end state.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  You are everywhere all at once at the right moments.

• 28:48Harry Stebbings?

  Why did Superhuman's growth asymptote then?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  At the end of the day, it was very much a, you know, premium product, immediate paywall. And the core ICP is founders, right? And, and we also experienced this at Whisper, right? Like the early adopter tech founder is not an infinite audience. I think today it's an ever-growing audience because everyone can be a founder, right? But if you look back even two, three years ago, the TAM of that is, is finite, right? And, and that was the first asymptote. So essentially, you know, going after additional ICPs like sales and how do we turn Superhuman to be more of a sales engine for people? Looking at the recent opens on the right, that's my favorite feature, right? I can see who's creeping on my emails and send them a reply. So like stuff like that, like adapting the product to more ICPs is where you get those additional step changes.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  But the asymptote is because it was hyper-focused on one ICP. And if you don't proactively open up the layers of the onion, you're, you're gonna hit, you know, some kind of level.

• 29:42Harry Stebbings?

  But if you look at revenue scaling and you see Fixer scale faster than Superhuman in the top buying revenue number, do you not just go, we fucked up paid?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Well, so yes, right, like Fixer followed the econ playbook. UGC, tons of ads, strong on Meta. The thing is, is slightly different value proposition in that.

• 30:02Harry Stebbings?

  Different market.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Different market, different consumer, right? This is, this is someone that like wants a simple tool that adds labels to their Gmail.

• 30:09Harry Stebbings?

  Would you say Fixer should continue to just spend the hell out of this market then?

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Well, from what I know, right, like their scale was both on the B to C side through Meta, but also like they made big revenue jumps through the outlook consumer that was hyper frustrated and big enterprise deals, right? And that's like, and that's also where, you know, Superhuman, now Superhuman Mail did the same thing, where going after big logos and ensuring that you can essentially have sales-led growth alongside PLG, I think Fixer did that also super well. They pushed hard on the sales side because that was also their background relationships they had from the email space. And that's why, like, same thing for Whisper, right? Like, it was really interesting to see that, you know, we were B to C PLG, but like a very large component of our ARR was enterprise before we had a single AE, because it was self-service enterprise adoption, team licenses and that kind of stuff.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  So you also want your product to be like adoptable easily by enterprise. I think that's a nice unlock as well.

• 31:03Harry Stebbings?

  We mentioned the three channels, Meta, Google, lifecycle. What are your lessons on how to do YouTube well? We hear about YouTube being the acquisition engine and machine that it is. Any lessons that I should know as a young founder?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  So I mean, it's a totally different type of creative. So if you look at Meta and YouTube, they have like similar but slightly different like hook curves where like the hook happens slightly later on Instagram and Facebook. You want that immediate validation while on YouTube, you're kind of there to spend the time, digest the video. So you have a little bit more of a longer attention span. And a lot of people actually are terrified of YouTube because, you know, the best performing YouTube ads are 16 by 9, so they're landscape. And most people are like, well, I have a UGC program. I just have story placements. What am I supposed to do? So we did a really cool thing at Victor. We had Victor build an app for us that takes any story video and adds it into a static

• 31:57Speaker 01

  template that has like logos that use us, G2 rating, and then a CTA. And the video is the replaceable asset. And we turned all of our story ads into YouTube ads. Every single one ended up on YouTube. Not all of them worked the same. We had to edit them a little bit to fit the format. But that's usually, people are like terrified to get started with YouTube because of that reason. But just like go into Figma, make a template that's a static asset, throw your video in that and just export that. Welcome to YouTube, right? Like you can write ads that way. And there's also just like a different storytelling where you want it to feel like a organic YouTube video. So like someone talking about a hack or use case of like, yo, I just started using this and it absolutely changed my life. I'm going to show you how, right? Like, you're not going to say that in a Meta ad, right? It's a very different script and framing and filming.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  So we have a separate team that does the scripts, films, the YouTube videos. It's an entirely separate program from our UGC. We use some things from UGC in YouTube, but it deserves its own focus.

• 32:53Harry Stebbings?

  We're going to go into the kind of team composition later. I wanted to stay on channels. We now have a working program. How do we determine how much fuel to pour on the fire?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's all dependent on that elasticity that we define. So like at Whisper did what I think everyone should do is go as hard as you absolutely can and then see it blow up and then understand where and how it blew up, pull back and use that as information of now we know what is incremental. We know where our ceilings are. We know that we hit audience saturation or we need more creative. So we did that last year at Whisper, right? Like we like 5X the budget from one month to another. And where do the pieces fall through, right? But the thing is, the reason why we did that, instead of eh, trying to figure it out over time is like, you don't have six months to say, okay, we need to be growing 30%, 40% month over month over month.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  And the only way that we can do that is, okay, let's see where our ceiling is. Because maybe we would have been surprised that we would have been scaling infinitely, which didn't happen, right? But we then knew, okay, Meta needs to be second to Google. Here's why, here's how all these things worked together. These newsletters were shit. This podcast doesn't work. How did the pieces fit together? So I mean, in my opinion, go hard to understand what doesn't work and where your mix needs to be adjusted, then bring things down and then scale back up with those learnings and then you can get a repeatable ramp.

• 34:18Harry Stebbings?

  If something doesn't work today, do you just turn it off or do you wait to give it time?

• 34:23Speaker 01

  I would say like it depends on how poor the metrics are, right? Like if there's like, there's no world that this is ever going to make sense, turn it off immediately. Let's say like some leading indicators are saying, eh, like it's, it's pretty crap, but like, let's give it a little bit of time to see if there are other things that are impacting this. Because like I said, there's, there's a million dials, like from the, from the ad to the conversion, there's a million things that you can tinker along the way. And that's why you want to give it time, right? Like this asset is going to the homepage. What if we had a hyper personalized landing page that says the exact same thing that is being said in the ad and even includes the creator's face on the page? Random idea, right? Does that move the needle? And test some things to give it some time and then scratch it off.

• 35:03Harry Stebbings?

  What single channel worked best at Whisper and what did you learn from that?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Definitely Google in terms of.

• 35:10Harry Stebbings?

  That is into traditional SEO.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Google Ads. Yeah, Google Ads. Google Ads is still the, the main driver, just, and it was surprising across literally everything. Non-branded search, PMax, YouTube ads, everything prints there. The reason why it's like, it's, it's the middle of the funnel, but you have essentially all top to bottom right in one platform. And if you have like all the right conversion tracking, Google is a big marketplace with all, a lot of surfaces and just optimizing for app download because it's a freemium product. We have a lot more fine-tuned control than we do in Meta when it comes to like CAC and how much we want to spend in India versus in the US. It's a different price in those markets. We don't have as much fine-tuned control in Meta. Because like I said, it's like they've removed all the manual settings. Creative is your targeting.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Either it works in a geo or it doesn't. You just iterate on creative. It's a completely different job than like, you have a pretty structured beast to essentially understand how to scale there. So it was Google and that's, it's also because longer form video for like a pretty difficult product to explain, like, okay, I talk, it turns to text, but where in like text boxes? Like, explain that to like the, the average Joe that's walking on the street. It's going to be like, they're going to look at you weird like, yeah, voice notes. Like, what do you mean? I send them in WhatsApp, right? Like, there's, there's that education that needs to happen. So like the 30 second to one minute videos in YouTube that educated the base ran for a while, about millions, hundreds of millions of impressions, then fed into non-branded search, PMax, different placements and display. And then eventually those people converted, right?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Those, all those pieces work together.

• 36:42Harry Stebbings?

  Is performance always best at the start of a channel or does it get better over time?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  It gets better over time, but again, it has its own scaling laws where like, there's a point where you have to diversify into other platforms before you see an additional unlock. But when you hit like some kind of audience fatigue of like whatever you're, you're targeting, but in the beginning, it's always shit because you're waiting for the conversions.

• 37:05Harry Stebbings?

  When you hit, when you hit audience fatigue, do you keep spending waiting for a next unlock or do you just go, I've tapped out this channel?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Well, you want to unlock the next audience, right? So like, you know, for example, when we're looking at Victor, when we, when we launched, we purposely had the, you know, the AI employee for everyone. And we did this to see who came in the door. And we had, you know, agencies, econ brands and SMBs that first showed up. And essentially what we did is we went through in order, right? We went, okay, we have evergreen stuff, we'll continue that running, but now let's go agencies. Can we acquire them? What does the funnel look like? What does the creative look like? And then once we unlocked one audience and it seems like the economics work, now there's a repeatable process to refine it, then we can go on to the next audience. So you essentially want to, you'll hit audience fatigue in what you're currently targeting. The marketing now is very ICP specific. We have all of the latest and greatest tools that can tell you in a prompt, whether using

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Victor or whatever tool, simulate this person, like what did they read? What did they think about decision-making? Run that prompt. And then you have like the richest ICP research you possibly can have, creative for that person, create an experience from a landing, onboarding and product experience for that person. You, you can continue scaling by just going down to the niche, audience by audience.

• 38:16Harry Stebbings?

  Because I don't think, as an investor in the company, I don't think that was a good tagline. And you may hate me for that, but the AI employee for everyone, I don't know what the fuck that means. If you were to say the AI video editor, great, amazing. If you were to say the AI copywriter, amazing. AI employee. You're doing my tasks, you're doing my creative. But my point is, are you able to do horizontal taglines and then verticalize? And that's the right approach?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  So I mean, I think because the category is so wide and I wouldn't say we're the first, but we're the first to like say AI employee and actually like deliver on that promise. Where like work is being given and it's at like the usage is actually ROI like positive, actually valuable. And we started with that because it's, it's again, like, how else are you going to frame it as being different than Claude or ChatGPT and these other players? Where like you have to like, for us, it's the positioning around knowledge work. Like there was nothing other than AI coworker and AI employee. Like there's no other positioning that like really makes sense. And because it hasn't been used a lot, I think it's confusing. But now that there are more use cases and stories to back it up, then we can shift the framing to be a, I hired Victor and here's what he did. And then it's a, oh, it's a, you know, a guy's name, it's an employee.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Oh, it's an AI tool, right? There's, you can invert the process now, but we had to start with something to essentially build those use cases.

• 39:35Harry Stebbings?

  One of the things that is supposed to be a growth engine is referrals and referrals programs. Any lessons from Wispr, from Superhuman that are really important for me and founders to know on how to build great referrals engines?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  I think it's one of the like core things, like we talked about meta Google lifecycle. When you think about PLG, like have that referral program set up and it be very front and center and easy to discover in the product to make it effortless for someone to share the product and get something, you know, for doing that, right? And at Superhuman, it was, you know, give one month, get one month. And, you know, we had people that had hundreds of referrals, hundreds of months, they were never going to pay for the rest of their lives. And because it was, it was delightful and it was easy to discover, but it was, it was very tactile where like I'm getting something, right? For, for doing this. So it was a similar thing with, with Whisper. When you hit your, let's say 2,000 word limit.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  So now that, you know, we're, we're changing a little bit of how that trial works, but essentially finding the right moment to show the referral program and make it tangible. So like you're right about, you're like, you're right about to hit your, your word limit. Hey, did you know that if you share this with your friend, you can get the next month free? Okay, I'm going to take five seconds and go and do that. And I'll tell one friend, hey, sign up for this. And if they sign up, I get that one month. And now I have another person that can spread the word and that K factor is what makes or breaks that.

• 40:56Harry Stebbings?

  So align referral program to usage limits.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  If that is your product, right? Like, like what is the thing that if you have more of, won't frustrate you, right? So like for Victor, right? The, the referral program that we have, so it's, it's all token based. You get credits to essentially use in Victor. Whenever you're near the limit, we give you essentially a decision tree, depending on who you are, of what you could do to earn free credits. We have a creator program. So if you just post on LinkedIn about Victor, we give you a payout via CPM directly to your account in credits to any user. And that gives us social and virality that we can essentially push forward on. Or you can be a part of the, the actual referral program where you can invite companies and you get a percentage revenue share of the referred company's paying plan in credits every month.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  So if I'm a company and I know another cool company that should be using Victor and I know that Victor's expensive, you know, we have, we have like eight person teams that are spending 15, $20,000 a month to use Victor and it replaced all their hiring. We can go into that later. But like, for example, that's a cost item. And I know that if I can bring, I have another friend that has an agency, they'll probably spend 5K and I'll get 20% of that as rev share. And that lowers my cost, but to us, that makes sense from a CAC basis. You know, we're willing to spend 1,000, 2,000, depending on the, the cohort to acquire a customer. We'd rather have our customers finding those best customers for us.

• 42:18Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah, fuck, if I'm a startup founder and I've got a load of founder friends in non-competitive markets, great, game on.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:23Harry Stebbings?

  I totally get that. Any ways that founders fuck up referral programs that they should avoid?

• 42:28Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, it's either not making them tangible or just like a, hey, refer your friends and it's a, but what am I getting for it? Or it's just like some like, you get swag or just like things that don't really matter. Or they create these like hyper complicated 20 tiers, like do these actions and like gamifying the referral program and then no one wants to use it because it's just like, it's a pain. So I think like it's somewhere in that spectrum of like, you're either doing that or that. Like you need to hit the sweet, the sweet spot of what that looks like.

• 42:58Harry Stebbings?

  Unless it's Palantir swag, in which case that's really quite cool and I would love that. We mentioned that like the timing of which you put that referral in front of people. The paywall is a difficult one and it oscillates like where to put it, whether it needs to be hard and immediate, whether you need to show value. How do you think about lessons, advice to founders on the immediacy of the paywall and where it sits best?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  I think even before the paywall analysis, the, the main thing you want to adjust for is like when that magical aha moment happens. And you want that magical moment happen as soon as possible, but you also don't want, like you want the paywall near that moment where like that moment is either your first discovery of wow, this is amazing, but you want to kind of continue that over time. So like you have that magical aha moment and then you're, you're kind of, you, you stay in that kind of like honeymoon phase of like, this is just amazing. And then within that phase, paywall, right? And that's like, whether it's words per week or how many credits you get in Victor. This is a, a big game that we're, we're trying to hyper refine now is how many free credits should we give you?

• 44:03Speaker 01

  And how do we nudge Victor to show you really useful workflows? Because the moment you have one that goes, this is game changing, paywall. Because then you, you want to open up your pocketbook because you've, you've felt something magical that you haven't felt before. And because there's so many products, this true unique magic, this is, this product is insane moments. And like this happened at Whisper for like when we had that first rocket ship moment when like LinkedIn was going absolutely nuts of like, there's this thing Whisper and I'm not typing anymore. And a lot of that was organic, right? But that's because people hit that magical moment. And that's like similar, like with the amount of posts that are happening about Victor. A lot of like, I'd say half of them are organic, half of them are like the creator program that I said, you post and you can get credits, but it's all genuine, right? But it's the, that magic moment that matters.

• 44:48Harry Stebbings?

  Should credits go in marketing budgets?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  So we call this fully loaded CAC. So our free trial credits get summed with marketing spend. If you're not doing that, then you're not really calculating your acquisition cost. So yeah, trial credits or like anything free that you're giving away is cost and it goes under, it is a marketing cost item.

• 45:05Harry Stebbings?

  We mentioned another one that was very interesting. You said AEO, which is obviously kind of answer engine optimization. We invested in Peak, which essentially optimizes this. How do you think about that as a new channel? How do we embrace it? What should we know?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  AEO in general followed the, the core tenants of SEO in general, where what like used to be old school SEO, like pumping out thousands of pages came back again. Cause like Google, because they own the, the SEO algorithm, essentially penalized people that were just pumping out pages for SEO. So like over the last couple of years, people stopped doing that. But the sheer amount of pages that you have in AEO, that is also changing a little bit. But like, you know, if you look at, you can ask any agent to analyze the site map and essentially do like cron. So we do this with Victor. We look at every competitor and we, we look at their site map. We see how many pages they're making. All these companies are doing like 100 to 200 pages a week. It's like, a lot of it is just like generated AI slop. So that's also what you don't want to do at scale.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  You actually like want valuable content that says valuable things because the, the AI crawler essentially ingests that. And then what you're seeing there is what gets written about you when like, what is the best tool for this? Or like, I'm trying to do this and it's, it's doing these citations. So the things that I'll say that are the most important AEO now, it's like, yes, have an engine that you send content through your website on specific things. But the most important thing is YouTube, Reddit and like the, the social narrative. So like, one of the early levers that every founder should, should do when they're first starting with, you know, scaling is investing in good YouTube reviews. Cause YouTube reviews, because they're long form, they rank long tail. They're one of the main things that get picked up by the answer engine.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  So you'll have your website, PR, external sources talking about you. And one of the biggest, best external sources are how many reviews and videos do you have on YouTube? They're a really high citation on ChatGPT. And that's like one of the early, I'd say, strong things that every founder should focus on.

• 46:59Harry Stebbings?

  Dude, it's traditional PR and news, dad. And what I mean by that, it's like, you know, bringing in tech crunch used to matter.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  I still think it matters in the sense that like I have the opinion that you know when you launch do a product hunt get featured in TechCrunch like that's just like it's like founder initiation.

• 47:16Harry Stebbings?

  Short table stakes.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'd say like it builds a level of credibility and trust that like you are on the map in the same way that everyone went through the process. But like the reason why it's important, the PR is less of a like PR blows up and there's like a traffic wave. Really, that PR is made for citations, right around AEO, like how many external credible sources are writing about you, then you'll see your AEO traffic significantly increase because the more of a not owned narrative is being talked about positively about you, the better off the product is.

• 47:48Harry Stebbings?

  Should I bother doing TikTok?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  I think there's a time and place for it and it depends on, you know, are you more B to C than anything else like?

• 47:56Harry Stebbings?

  I've never met a CMO or a head of growth who's been able to crack it. I've never.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  I think there's a time and place to like do some audience diversification, but yeah, to be honest, in any of the the three kind of core companies that I've been at so far, it hasn't worked yet, but maybe I'll get a chance to change that at Victor.

• 48:14Harry Stebbings?

  Totally get that. Final one again, before we move to team composition, but what happens if when we turn off paid as much, so we're spending really aggressively and it's working, it's working and we get to thirty, forty, fifty million in revenue and we're like, we've got a bit of a paid engine now that we're a bit hooked on, turn off the paid, dial it really right back and growth down.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  That means you have other problems, right? Like I think the sweet spot for organic mix should be around like thirty five to forty five percent of acquisition is word of mouth, organic and like truly people just discovering it based on everything else that you've built. In the beginning, because you just started and there's not a lot of stuff out there about you, it is entirely tied to paid. But in the later stage, if you turn everything off, that means you have forgotten about the other half of the job, which is the SEO, the AEO, the reviews, everything being written. So like you sometimes want to dial down and see how elastic it is again to the the previous part that we were saying, because that's like you definitely want a strong MMM model and incrementality when you're like the moment you start spending north of a million dollars

• 49:22Speaker 01

  a month, definitely have a model that says this channel is incremental, this is not. And like the model will in the beginning always be wrong, make some changes, dial things down, do holdouts, whatever, and then see if the model proves true, model gets better over time. And then you have you're lost in the dark, right? Like you actually understand what levers go up and down and where you can actually spend a lot. So I think spending down to understand how much drop off you have is actually a good, very strong learning moment.

• 49:49Harry Stebbings?

  How many good growth leaders do you actually think there are?

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Not a lot.

• 49:52Harry Stebbings?

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  If I'm going to be honest.

• 49:54Harry Stebbings?

  I really not a lot. There's a lot of founders who'll be listening to this and going, wow, I'm thinking through like three companies in particular where I'm like, shit, I wish I could put my.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think I've had like I've had an interesting kind of like grow up through marketing is because I started, I started in corporate consulting, which was an absolute life suck, I hated it. And that got me to found my first agency where I had to learn how to do everything myself from zero, right? And because I had to do that, and I did that in both Ecom, SaaS and enterprise B two B, my industry is still around today and not involved in the day to day. But like because I had to do that, I understand how to launch a meta ad. I'm not as you know, head of growth or CMO that like has no idea how to do execution. This is why also as head of growth at Whisper, up until December of this past last year, I was the only person doing execution on a three, four, five million dollar budget. I was doing everything myself.

• 50:45Harry Stebbings?

  This is what I say to all like university students and young people say, which is like it's never been more important to be full stack.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:51Harry Stebbings?

  Like you need to be writing the creative, shooting the video, editing the video, putting the video on meta, whatever it is, Instagram, YouTube, you name it, full barrel, like the whole, oh, I just do creative and copywriting. Fuck that.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  I think a lot of people have been saying this and I definitely echo that like hyper specialists are dying a slow death. Like you, you need to be like, I've always seen myself as a specialized generalist and like the way that, you know, you have to pick something that you are better than the rest at, but like get your hands dirty and learn how to do a little bit of everything. And that's like a lot of growth leaders actually get lost in the the marketing analytics, the conversion tracking, like that stuff is usually where like they don't really understand how that works. And they, if you don't understand the fundamentals, you actually don't know what makes the the system tick. We also live in a world where like ChatGPT, Claude, Victor, right? Like they're the best learning vehicles ever in the history of humanity.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  If you don't know how to do something, goddamn ask it, have it tell you, give me everything step by step that I need to do and go and do it and then see where things break, see what you don't understand, like there's, there's agency. If you are hungry and a learner, those are the best people that win are the people that are that are nerds, that are, that are curious, right? Like that, that's, that's the line for me.

• 52:05Harry Stebbings?

  If we go to the team itself, the requirements for talent changes, how has what you look for in talent changed in the last year or two?

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's complete one eighty. I'd say now a year ago, I'd be looking for someone that has ten years of experience in let's say meta ads, they've scaled to hundreds of millions of dollars and they're let's say the best in the world as a meta ads media buyer. And that would be the main thing I'd be looking for, let's say that's the person I'm hiring. Now I'm looking for that, but they don't necessarily have to be the best in the world historically. If their AI native are a systems thinker and can deconstruct what makes their job hum, that person plus experience will out compete someone that just has experience and is not an AI native. And that's like, I'm seeing that happen where like I'm going to have a hot take here.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  I think a lot of teams are trying to make their teams AI native and they're failing.

• 53:02Harry Stebbings?

  Why are they failing?

• 53:03Speaker 01

  The people that are in those roles are not systems thinkers. Like if you're in a marketing or let's say ops role and you're not a systems thinker, you don't know, you actually don't know.

• 53:13Harry Stebbings?

  How do you think about like, what does systems thinking mean?

• 53:15Speaker 01

  To me, that's being able to step back from let's say a task that is a part of my job, being able to take one degree of separation from the task itself and say, in my role, what are all of the moving pieces that essentially I need to do on a day to day basis? What are the inner relationships? Where's the boring admin? Where's the reporting? What's all of that? And being able to map that out and understand how your job as a system actually works, because then you can actually say, okay, I can apply an agent or AI to this part and now I can focus on this higher leverage part of my job. A lot of people go and go to ChatGPT and ask it a question and then they go on still doing their job the manual way. If you take a step back and say, what would it take for me to fully automate, let's say all of my job?

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Of course, it's not going to work, things are going to break apart, but run yourself through that thought experiment. And the thing is, is if you ask a lot of people that, it turns out they don't really understand their job and because they're not systems thinkers, they don't actually know what are all the inputs and the outputs. So that's the line for me. So like when I, when I interview people to fill in the team, it's like partially like an engineering interview where like systems thinking is the bar.

• 54:20Harry Stebbings?

  So what do you ask them to do? Well, I want a job with you, okay? You're clearly fucking brilliant and I'm a podcaster. What are you going to put me through? How are you going to test me?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the core question is more of like, how do you use AI as a workflow in work? But I'm actually more curious, how do you use AI workflows in your personal life? Like, do you have any systems that you feed through AI that make you a better person outside of work? And like maybe the line blurs of like what you do is also work is personal, whatever.

• 54:48Harry Stebbings?

  And so a good answer versus a bad answer would be?

• 54:51Speaker 01

  I mean, a bad answer would be, you know, I, I have a skill or like a chat thread that's like a, a project in ChatGPT that I talk to and it has like some context because it's like, yes, that's factually correct. That's how you should use, let's say, a memory layer and a context layer and you have one proactive chat conversation, so it works. Chatting with the thing is not a workflow, right? Where if there's no feedback loop, like one of the core things that I always test for is let's say an AI gives you slop, what do you do with it? So a lot of people, what they'll do is they'll take the slop and then say, this is slop, maybe it changes and they get frustrated, then they take the doc and start writing it themselves. And if you don't go through the pain of giving it feedback, like that's the first kind of feedback loop that I test for. But the next thing is, is from, let's say you have a loop and like I use this example

• 55:36Speaker 01

  before of like, I built like a sponsorship system as Whisper, but essentially the workflow is a self improving loop where like if a newsletter sponsor emails me, my agent essentially knows that this is a newsletter request, it asks them for their rates, it does research on what their audience is, it does the first part of negotiation for me, I step in to approve the like, yes, we want to work with them. We get a contract and that's where my manual step in newsletter ends. I throw the contract into the agentic system, it ingests all of the cost data into the file system, it does copywriting, it does all of the email sending, it creates all the links, it creates all the conversion tracking, it sends everything out to the partner because like a newsletter is like a boring antiquated email, I will email you and you will tell me the performance.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  And then based on the copywriting and based on the cost, it will essentially also know what performance looked like and then say, do we continue on with the partner? That's also an agentic decision because I have CPM should be this, conversion should be this, let the run fizzle out if it didn't work out, right? And again, that's, that's a workflow, right? Like I have a couple of human touch points, but the things that I know that if it analyzes the data and the same thing, if it generated a copy, it knows all of every link's performance and can say, this copy works, this doesn't. So the next time it generates copy, it's based on all historic data. It's not a, and that's like a self improving.

• 56:55Harry Stebbings?

  What do you use for this?

• 56:56Speaker 01

  So this was first the like marketing OS I built at Whisper. So it was like Claude code on a computer, that's just the the folder system and like skill and. M D files, that was the beginning of that system. So it would essentially be that, right? Where I have Claude plugged into my email with Kron set up to essentially check at nine, check at noon, check at six. Are there any new newsletter requests? Do a workflow to respond to those things. And then bubble up to me a message in Slack being like, hey, these need your decisions. Here's some contracts that got sent over. And then that system evolved. So that was like my own O S. I had to then get control that folder to share that with the team. So other people can use the workflow.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  So then for essentially a year and a half, I was the one person at Whisper doing all execution. So imagine a million a month on Google, hundreds of thousands of keywords, ads, experiments, landing pages. I owned every K P I from eyeball to download and then product took it over, right? Onboarding, but then add meta, add newsletters. So at a given point, I was working with between 70 and 120 unique newsletter providers that would send me emails, ask for copy approval. I needed to create unique images. So I said, why are newsletters still in like the stone ages? But there's no platform, like it's all through email and you're negotiating and haggling with these people trying to get you on a C P M, right? So that was one of the first things that I created a workflow around. Like, I don't code, right?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Like, I learned how to do this by doing it. I want to automate this Claude code. How would you do this? And I started by, I built the O S asking how to build an O S, right? And then every single day, I would say 90 to 95% of my work through the entire day was fed through the A I. So like, I want to optimize the ads. Can you pull the reporting, right? What are the keywords? And I would make all the changes, see all the copy through Claude code in the terminal, because that allowed me to give feedback to the feedback loop. So every day got a little better, got a little better. And there came a point where I could, like the models also got good enough. Like I was an early adopter of Claude code. So like December of 25 was when, you know, the Claude code moment happened. I adopted it in September before it was good.

• 59:04Harry Stebbings?

  And immediately you saw that insane ramp.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Like it was wrong a lot. Like there was like, the copy was poor, like the things broke. It was early days, but like I was curious, like I'm a tinkerer. And like, I used that to essentially learn how to do the whole thing. And like, I know we deviated from the team question, but the, that as me having to learn how to do the workflow, essentially because I had to do it not knowing how to make that work, going from A to Z, that's what I test for is can you take a hard problem and build a system around it that you have solved?

• 59:33Harry Stebbings?

  How many candidates do you actually meet who have that level of depth?

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Less than 1%.

• 59:39Harry Stebbings?

  Exactly. Can you even build a team on that?

• 59:42Speaker 01

  So that's the thing, right? Like, I think the team composition of today and tomorrow is way leaner than it was before. So like, we likely will, like for, you know, at Grammarly, you know, let's say a bigger startup in SaaS, startup is air quotes there, big corporate SaaS, they have a influencer marketing team, right? They have like three, four or five people. Today and tomorrow, that is one really good person with an amazing suite of agents that will only ever touch, like, imagine you've scaled to 100,000 influencers that are posting on you in a month. If you have an agentic system and you know how to weed through the data, understand where you need to be plugged in, you could do that. And that's why, even though it's 1% of candidates, that's fine.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  If I find that one person that is going to be able to fully own that, build the systems and like right now, and this is like my bet for the next, you know, three, five years, you know, 80% of our work is still manual, 20% is agents. Hence why like my bet into Victor, it's like essentially solving all of knowledge work. I think in three years, companies will essentially be like board of directors where 20% of the work is the strategy and the thinking, and then agents just do 80% of the execution, right? Like right now, it's still like, we're still editing is manual, sending an email is still manual, even though we have the tools, like there's still a human layer into that. I think that will change as quality gets better, usage and like actual adoption towards an R O I basis gets there. That's my bet. And that's, that's also why this stuff is so important, right?

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Because if you can't understand how the systems work, you're never going to be able to see your agents.

• 1:01:10Harry Stebbings?

  So less than 1% B to B C M Os today, are they fucked? I don't mean that too bluntly, but I don't know any B to B C M O in a scaled company that has any fucking clue what you're talking about.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  They hire those people around themselves, which I think like there's.

• 1:01:28Harry Stebbings?

  Do they really?

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  They try to.

• 1:01:29Harry Stebbings?

  I mean. I'm not going to name companies that don't want to shit on people, but like if you look at some of the big providers, you seriously saying in your.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:01:38Harry Stebbings?

  Anaplan's and your Coopers and your, that anyone has a fucking clue what you're talking about?

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that's, that's also why I think the companies that do will quickly gain market share against those that don't, right? And that's why I think we live in very interesting times in terms of competitive environment where the incumbents that don't adopt this at the senior level will essentially, their growth rates will, will stand still while the hyper growers that are doing exactly this framing will essentially gain that market share and outcompete them, right? So I think you're right. Like, I think leadership needs to change. And like I said, I think a lot of teams and my hot take was probably fire most of your marketing team that is not a systems thinker. Like stop brute forcing people in, hire the right people into the roles because the role has changed. The J D is no longer the same what it was a year ago, right?

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  And, and people are still brute forcing people into these new J Ds. I think there needs to be a bit of a shakeup.

• 1:02:33Harry Stebbings?

  Okay, I'm a founder. I'm looking at my marketing team today. There's 10 people on like a series A, B, firm, whatever. Who should I fire? How do I test it?

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  When you're not looking and you come back and they're suddenly now systems and that one person is 10x themselves, you're not going to fire that person. But then you will very clearly see who hasn't done that. And that like, that difference is being felt where like the A players are becoming S tier players and the people that were B players are becoming D players. And that, that rift is created.

• 1:03:01Harry Stebbings?

  The other thing I just think is like consumer marketing is not consumer marketing and B to B marketing is not B to B marketing. It's just marketing.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Harry Stebbings?

  At the end of the day, there's a consumer who has a buying decision at a big enterprise or as a person.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. I mean, that is also why people were questioning our initial marketing strategy at Victor. Because we're like, like I said, super high CAC, B to B SaaS, right? Like you are hiring an employee into your team and you're paying thousands of dollars for this thing, right? That's, that's a B to B SaaS tool, but we approach the marketing like a prosumer app, right?

• 1:03:34Harry Stebbings?

  There is a 19, 20 year old at Poly Markets called Tobin. Maybe he doesn't mind me saying this.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  I mean, he was at Whisper, right? He was originally at Whisper.

• 1:03:43Harry Stebbings?

  He was at Whisper?

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. He was, he built the original U G C viral program at Whisper before he went to Poly Market. So I know Tobin.

• 1:03:49Harry Stebbings?

  Oh, wow. Well, this is perfect then, yes. Where I'm like, you would pay through the nose for talent like Tobin, who just gets it, who is 10x what anyone else will be in that position. Do you not agree?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think in each lane, there are those people. And that's, that's also why like, you know, from like an M L researcher's standpoint, they'll, you'll pay millions of dollars for a person that's going to move a model forward. I think we're coming to the place that like people in these marketing roles, they're unicorns, they're rare and you want them in your company. And I think that same like M L crazy moment is maybe going to happen over the next year in, in the marketing acquisition side.

• 1:04:26Harry Stebbings?

  Diddy, you ready for a quick fire? I've loved this. What is the most underappreciated growth channel today?

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  It's a channel we haven't mentioned. And I think a lot of people do this poorly and it, it actually compounds if you do it well, and that's affiliate, where you're, you're paying, let's say a percentage of revenue or some kind of CAC to people that are not your customers. And they go out of their way to create content and reviews and all of that. And so like at Whisper and, and Victor, it is the highest R O I channel. And if you set up a strong affiliate program and you bring people into the door and they feel like they can earn money, even before they're your customers, they will become your customers. And it's one that like, it's a little bit outside of the referral program because you're not, it's not through the product. It's how can you make this, you know, sexy external program that someone that is just

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  an affiliate wants to, like they have a surface area, they have a website, they have, they have some audience that they have and they want to sell your thing to that audience. Acquire them that way. And like, that's, that's one of the highest early R O I channels that if you start doing in the beginning, it ramps, right? Like, so like for, for Victor, a good 10 to 15% of our acquisition on a monthly basis comes through our affiliate program. People that want to earn money, because we give them between 10 and 15% revenue share. So if you're, you know, if that affiliate gets a company that pays 10K a month, they're making 1,500 bucks a month from one sale as an affiliate. That's also like give, create a program that wants people to earn money. And this is the other thing that we said.

• 1:05:55Harry Stebbings?

  Can I do this creative program? Swear I've sent like 10 companies to Fred. Mom, I'm retiring.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, we have, we have some affiliates that are making 20, 30K a month.

• 1:06:06Harry Stebbings?

  What's the most polluted channel? What's the, oh, this is just shit pit.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm going to say X in the sense of.

• 1:06:16Harry Stebbings?

  Just the launch videos are boring.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  That's, that's exactly what I mean, right? Where like everyone is trying to do exactly the same launch viral thing and like, it's also polluted in the sense that like X ads don't work. And like that, that to me just means the platform is still.

• 1:06:33Harry Stebbings?

  They don't work?

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  I've yet to meet a SaaS head of growth or a performance marketer that says that X ads print. So if someone, someone, someone has gotten X ads to print, please tell me because I would love to be challenged on that.

• 1:06:44Harry Stebbings?

  That's fascinating. Okay. So X, I'm with you. I'm just so bored of this. I don't know if you saw, there was one video yesterday and we're talking about it. So it obviously worked, but it's this company iconic weave, I think it's called, where they jumped out of a plane and did the like copy, jumping out of a plane. And you're, it's like, have we got to that stage? Like, is it that mature market that you like have to jump out of a plane and read it while doing that?

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  The, the formula of like shock and awe, launch videos. And, and because to be honest, and then like specifically those are the ones that like, well, we don't really, don't really have a product. And I'm not saying maybe in their example, but like the sheer amount of like, we launched this for that. And we spent way more time into our launch video than actually any time in our product. Like I see so much of that. And that's why I say polluted.

• 1:07:29Harry Stebbings?

  What would you most like to change about the world of growth?

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Have more good growth leaders. But in, in honesty, I think.

• 1:07:36Harry Stebbings?

  My request for startups would be, I don't know why we don't have a school, which basically says, hey, completely understand. You need to be AI pilled. Great. What the fuck does that mean? Come to our school and for six weeks, we will teach you how to get jacked up on every system, process, model for six weeks, nine to five. This is your job and you pay 10,000 bucks. I would say that's more valuable than universities stay for teenagers.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll go start another company. No, no, I mean, you're a hundred percent right in it.

• 1:08:08Harry Stebbings?

  I would fund that company today with millions of dollars. I'm being serious. Well, if you're JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs and you put that at the bottom of Canary Wharf, would you not send every single employee there?

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Cause then you, you, you built the hyperscalers of tomorrow. I mean, super interesting. Uh, so like I, I went to NYU, uh, for, for college. Uh, what's interesting, I did not take a single, I mean, zero marketing classes and I learned everything via doing. And, uh, I think what's interesting is like the, the education around marketing, I think is also like sit still. And like, again, I, I haven't been into a college today. I mean, maybe that has changed, but like, are they teaching you how to install a Facebook pixel? And no, right? Like the framing of how it works comes after you start doing the execution, right? Like you can do and then understand verse understand and sit in a room and learn and then go and try to do the thing. You're going to learn so much faster just via doing. So I, I agree with you. I, I've yet to see like true A to Z bootcamp of what it means to be a growth leader. And I mean, like Reforg and Brian Balfour, they, they've tried to

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  do this, but like it's still.

• 1:09:04Harry Stebbings?

  I'm actually not even saying a growth leader. I'm just saying how to get knowledgeable to the extent where you can build processes, systems, start replacing yourself in with Claude, with you name the provider, where you can start doing expanses, copy, design.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Hundred percent right. And in that frame, I, I agree as well, right? Like I'm applying it to like do that in marketing, but the, the grounding is people don't know how to do the beginning step. You're a hundred percent right.

• 1:09:30Harry Stebbings?

  The very beginning. So how do I simply set up my Claude to be efficient with integrations? So it gets access to all my files in the right way with the right permissions. You said, you know, nine, 12 and six, where it does the check in. Dude, I think you'd forget where people are.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, like, uh, like to me, what I think is like table stakes. I always forget is like, people don't set up things this way. So like I, I, for example, and this is when I was using Claude code. Now I'd say like 80% of my, my work is, is Victor. But for the people that are not using Victor, if you're using Claude code and you do one thing is set up what I call is the session end skill. If you set up one skill that's going to like let your work compound, it's what I call session end. So I have a terminal or a Claude code session and I'm doing some realm of work and it's almost done or like I want to end the session. So what is inside of that skill is essentially I have connected to my Claude code, a Obsidian vault that is every day, log of everything that I put

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  through the terminal, all decisions, all open tasks, all learnings, you know, essential notes and atoms and like all of everything that I'm doing in every session is being stored in Claude memory. But then you don't have access to that. Right? So what session end does is it analyzes the session, distills what we worked on, what was the frame, you know, did we accomplish this thing? What are the outstanding items? And it moves that over into Obsidian, which is like a node based system, which lets me go back to any day and understand what did I work on that day? And you can see this web grow over time. And that's like one massive hack to essentially turn every session to be compounding because then that connects the, the node based system of Obsidian says, a week ago, you worked

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  on this and then you, you hit a wall here. You worked on it again today, you solved it. And because the agent also can analyze everything, it creates those interrelationships for you where like you worked on meta ads with this creative type here in two places. And normally you'll forget that, right? And like, so will the system. And if you have a place where like your work, your memory, that to me is also probably the most valuable resource for people is if you can document every little thing that you're building, tweaking and refining, that is like how social capital was the big thing. I think like, what do you have on your computer that is saved in your AI output? That I think as we walk into the next like couple of years is the treasure trove for, for a lot of people.

• 1:11:55Harry Stebbings?

  Do you want to hear something wild? Every single week we enter the IC investment committee for the fund and we now have all of our calls graded by an AI call grader, which measures every single call that we've ever done. We have this obviously feedback loop.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 1:12:07Harry Stebbings?

  It collects every single call and it simply just stack ranks out of 10 and ranks them across five different variables, like founder market fit, product market fit, deal, a load of other things, quality of product, blah, blah, blah. And then we just go down the AI rankings in terms of priority. And we actually fully delegate trust of prioritization to the AI ranking system.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  But if you put the thought into here's the decision tree of prioritization and you put the thought into that, then you can trust the system, right? Because it's, it's based on your framing.

• 1:12:37Harry Stebbings?

  Do you know it's never been wrong in its ranking?

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  I can believe that.

• 1:12:40Harry Stebbings?

  We've only done it for 12 weeks, but 12 times. It's pretty good. Yeah. It's over a thousand companies.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  And like, uh, same thing, like I do this. So I use a, you know, a botless meeting recorder that records all of my meetings. And at the end of the day, it ingests all of them and says, what did I promise to do on calls that didn't end up in a to do software somewhere? And then it drops all of that. It says, did, did you do any of these? And then I have my to do list for tomorrow.

• 1:13:05Harry Stebbings?

  Oh God, no. I have a girlfriend for that. And that's, that's challenging enough. Final one for you. Which company growth strategy that you're not tied to, do you most respect? And what do you learn from it?

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  I think the craft of product and like the hypotheses, the deep experimentation and like building true user experience excellence. That to me is just like sexy. Cause I think if you look at like the sheer volume of products that are coming out every single day, very few of them have product excellence. And the people that steer that craft are like true product leaders. I learned so much from them and apply those things into my world. But seeing the way their brains work and the way that they're analyzing the data and how they understand the customers is really inspiring. And I think, you know, a lot of people can learn how to do that. Cause I, I'd say this is less maybe across the company, more like the people in companies. But I think, to be honest, like I, I think

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  in terms of companies, I am more impressed by the net new things that like are starting from zero. And like even as step one, they're doing pretty well in the sense of like, we thought through the branding, we launched into this marketing thing. And that's like, that's what I, I like, I appreciate that.

• 1:14:18Harry Stebbings?

  Give me a company.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  I mean, again, this is more like tooting my horn a bit, but like just seeing like what the original launch was for, for Whisper. Like that was a, you know, like see, it's like seeing that product correlation with marketing, even though I had a part in that, like that was truly like, it entered the map because of that. And then same thing, like, yes, I was a part of the ride there, but like the adoption and the fact that a Polish startup that of course raised a big series A became massively seen on the map and was very quickly loved. Like those are the kinds of things that like make me want to get up in the morning. We, we did a thing, we put a lot of thought into it and there was pickup around it. And I think that, that's like, that's what fascinates me is like, what are all the moving pieces that like, you go and finally launch the thing and it goddamn

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  works. Right? And that's like, I think that's, that's the beauty of, you know, why I do what I do, because those are some special moments.

• 1:15:11Harry Stebbings?

  Matt, I've so enjoyed this. I can't thank you enough for agreeing to share all of your secrets and for letting me drill down into all the strategies.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  This is an absolute blast. To the, to the next one, to more nugs next time.

• 1:15:25Harry Stebbings?

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• 1:16:10Harry Stebbings?

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• 1:16:55Harry Stebbings?

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• 1:17:35Harry Stebbings?

  pro AI website builder for creators, teams and businesses that care enough to get every detail right. The agents close the gap between AI generated ideas and production ready website work because it all happens where the site actually lives. It lands on the canvas, stays editable and can be published when the team is ready. So you can build custom code components, create and manage CMS content, optimize SEO settings and ship everything all in one place. The agents bring speed and scale. You bring taste, judgment and control. It's an enterprise level solution too. Premium hosting, enterprise grade security, 99.99% uptime SLAs, which is why the world's leading brands like Perplexity and Miro build in Framer.

• 1:18:19Harry Stebbings?

  Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started by building for free today at framer.com/20vc for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/20vc for 30% off. framer.com/20vc. Rules and restrictions may apply.