What We Know About the Mid Air Collision w/ Dr. Randy Mahoney | EYES ON PODCAST

Today we are joined by Dr. Randolph Mahoney; Dr. Randolph Mahoney is a retired widebody Captain for a major US airline, having recently completed 37 years of service. He is also a former Naval Aviator, Naval Aviation Safety Officer, and Naval Flight Instructor. In both his civilian and military roles, he has participated in mishap investigations, and helped develop safety and training programs. He holds FAA certificates as an Airline Transport Pilot, and also has commercial pilot privileges in aircraft and helicopters, as well as being a Certified Flight Instructor and Advanced Ground Instructor. Having flown extensively in the National Capital Area, he is very familiar with Reagan National Airport and operations there. Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Find Andy Milburn here: ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 https://amilburn.substack.com/ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social https://open.substack.com/pub/amilburn/p/journal-of-a-plague-year?utm_source=app-post-stats-page&r=emo6q&utm_medium=ios Find Mick Mulroy here: ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ https://x.com/MickMulroy?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.soci Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch on deck small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it covers seasonal dips manage payroll restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat with flexible draws transparent pricing and control over repayment get funded quickly and confidently apply today at on deck.com funds could be available as soon as tomorrow depending on certain loan attributes your business loan may be issued by on deck or Celtic bank on deck does not lend in North Dakota all loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of eyes on we got a full house today Mick Mulroy Jason Lyons Andy Milburn and of course Dr Randy Mahoney. Dr Mahoney is a retired widebody captain for a major US airline having recently completed 37 years of service he is a former naval operator aviator naval aviation safety officer and naval flight instructor in both his civilian and military roles he participated in mishap investigations and helped develop safety and training programs he holds FAA certificates as an airline transport pilot and also has a commercial pilot privileges in aircraft and helicopters as well as being a certified flight instructor and advanced ground instructor

• 1:24Speaker 01

  having flown extensively in the national capital area he's very familiar with Reagan National Airport and the operations there Randy thanks a lot for joining us today we really appreciate it. Yeah. What happened you tell us and you're the expert. I mean, I've seen what happened.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  First of all, first of all funny story Randy used to live right next to me and he used to have a helicopter which is one of the reasons why he we asked him to be on as an expert and he used to fly when we did our Lobo technical courses up here and so it kind of got out that we actually had a helicopter which we thought was super cool and never disabused anybody of but yeah Lobo is a helicopter but it was really we're super lucky to have him great friend wish he still lived in Montana but I think he can really enlighten us at a time when there's a lot of quite frankly BS out there about what did or didn't happen and all that stuff so hopefully I know actually that we'll just stick to the facts.

• 2:29Speaker 03

  Absolutely. You know, the first thing, and you probably already heard this, I haven't watched the news very much. I've gone into some of the sources and looked at the raw data and have kind of stayed away from the instant analysis because it's not really helpful. There's an old saying in mishap investigations, and professionally, we call these mishaps. We don't call them accidents. An accident is where a tree falls on you. You know, that's in the law, that might be considered an act of God. I don't like to throw things on God, but there's usually a cause.

• 3:08Speaker 03

  But in aircraft mishaps, where you have a damage and/or loss of life, it's considered a mishap. And a mishap is always, always a mixture of many factors. And the saying in mishap investigation is that if you think you know the cause in the first day, or the second day, or the first week, you don't know the cause. Because there can be some evidence before you that certainly points in one direction or another, but the thoroughness of the investigation, which we're very fortunate in this country

• 3:52Speaker 03

  to have a very professional and very robust investigational apparatus. And when that comes out, you really see the entire event in totality. And we look at root cause. We look at, yeah, we know, we know at this point, we know two aircraft came together where they shouldn't have been. That is undisputed and will continue to be undisputed. We know a little more than that, but that's what we know at this point. A lot of it is speculation, but some of the facts that are that we know that are

• 4:31Speaker 03

  surrounding this mishap are still facts. We can make some some educated guesses as to probability. Will these prove out what we think at this point our hypothesis? But a hypothesis has to be proven, or it has to be unproven. So with that, I can I can go into what we know if that is going to be helpful.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  I can I can kick it off. I mean, for the for the folks that have spent a lot of time flying in and out of Reagan as a non-aviator, I mean, it's it seems to me two two things that kind of set the stage here. And, you know, obviously, correct me if I'm wrong here, Andy, but it seems very unusual that the route that you fly in that's so restricted based on all of the significant, you know, areas located on the path, you know, CIA quarters, Pentagon's, White House, Congress, there was talk about shutting it down before or after 9/11, obviously. And then the other thing that I've noticed is there's always been helicopters flying up

• 5:44Speaker 02

  and down the Potomac, taking VIPs this this this place and that place, you know, starting with the president. It seems to me as a guy who's been going in and out of there for over two decades, that that's increased substantially. I don't know if everybody thinks they need a helicopter now to fly him around. He used to be the president and like the secretary of defense, maybe. And now, you know, all the way down to like the assistant secretaries or something, flying on helicopters. I don't know. But that's that's my personal observation. So I have to back it up. And so I'd start with, is it is there any other place in the country that you're aware of, Randy, where they have this level of helicopter traffic on the direct, or it seems to be in close proximity to the flight line of one of the

• 6:27Speaker 02

  most used runways in the United States? Is that is that anywhere else in the country where this exists? And it does it exist primarily because the people in Washington want it to exist?

• 6:41Speaker 03

  Mick, I think you hit the nail on the head there. There are areas of very high mixed traffic density, which is you have airliners, you have helicopters, you have private aircraft, and you have other airports in close proximity. So there are a lot of areas that are crowded. But I don't know of any area, other than the national capital region, and this is, excuse me, the area from Reagan National Airport in a five-mile radius that is as

• 7:16Speaker 03

  dense and is permeated with flight operations, mixed flight operations, all the time. So I think it's fair to say that, again, I don't, I can't, I could probably pull up some of the statistics, but I think you're absolutely right that there is a great deal of mixed traffic. And with that is the absolute necessity to set flight corridors and what we call, in the FAA, they call them letters of agreement, which is that certain operators will use

• 7:58Speaker 03

  the certain paths and will fly at certain altitudes and not deviate from that. So with that, they are much more assured of aircraft separation, and that's the real key. That's what, that's what the controllers are doing. They're separating aircraft from each other. And it's worked very well, even with what appears to be an increased density of helicopter operations. And it's certainly apparent, I can't prove it, I can't give you numbers, but, you know, as an observation, I think it is, it's accurate. And you can understand.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  It may be time to try something else. Extensor is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensor is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection. Common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain, or sore throat may occur.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensor. Learn more at extensor.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 9:35Speaker 05

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans, up to $400,000, help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Stand from a personal security standpoint, and traffic congestion, other things, that motorcating somebody through and across Washington versus being able to helicopter them is certainly faster. And for some operations, the level of security may be warranted. I don't know. That's on them. But the amount of helicopter operations in that area, I think, they certainly are dense. And it appears that they have been increasing since 9/11, with probably good reason. But that just means, again, that...

• 10:49Speaker 03

  Separation criteria and making sure that aircraft are separated, that you separate the helicopter traffic from the fixed wing traffic in and out of Reagan. And we know, as a matter of fact, it's already been been reported that there's been this slippery slope of increasing airline operations, daily operations at Reagan because people love, understandably, they want to, they love flying in into National Airport. They don't want to go to Dulles. And they want, they want to be able to go direct to Denver. They don't want to, the old days, you could only go so far. But that's been extended.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  So now you're having more longer range flights out of there and an increased density of airline operations. So that just adds to whatever mix there is.

• 11:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was reading that it, that the airport was designed for 15 million passengers. And that's annually and it's now handling 25 million. You know, I know there's, I mean, there's multiple, multiple factors. That's one of the can probably that contributed to this. But undoubtedly to, you know, they, that increase, plus what Mick was talking about, how close proximity of helicopter operations. But you normally see them, but they're always flying pretty low, you know, along the, along the river, right? I mean, they seem to, to be held to particular corridors. I'm imagining it was what, below 500 feet or something?

• 12:28Speaker 03

  That, that is exactly right. There are some published helicopter routes. And the reason they're published is again, so that we have these letters of agreement and these expectations for this traffic along the Potomac River.

• 12:49Speaker 03

  The, and to your point, below 500 feet, actually, it's, it is very, very specific. For example, this, this helicopter appears to have been looking, I, I did see his, his, what's called his ADS-B, which is Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast, which gives us a position of an aircraft every second. And I looked at that data and also gives them, it gives us their reported altitude. He was doing what he was supposed to initially. He was, for example, when you're, if you're flying from north to south, let's picture National Airport is on the west side of Potomac River.

• 13:34Speaker 03

  The Potomac River kind of divides Washington from Virginia. And you're flying south. Now, what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to fly south along the eastern shore of the Potomac. That way, you don't conflict with, it's called P-56, which is the prohibited area around the White House, the Washington Monument, Capitol Building. So you're not going too far to the east, but you're also staying on the eastern part of the river. So you're staying away from National Airport.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  The pilot was flying that route, and when you hit Memorial Bridge, Memorial Bridge, for those of you not familiar with Washington, is about, about a mile to the north of the airport boundary of National Airport.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  When you hit that point, you must be at 200 feet and below. It's very carefully stated, and it is, it has been used, that, that, that altitude restriction has been there for decades. And everybody who flies that route knows this. They're very specific altitudes, and one of them is, once you, if you're southbound, and that is called Route, Route 1. And if you're on Route 1 and you're southbound, once you reach a beam Memorial Bridge, you must be at 200 feet or below. And then you continue along the eastern shore of the Potomac till you pass the Anacostia River, and then you actually kind of merge onto what's called Route 4.

• 15:11Speaker 03

  And that looks very similar. It just follows the coastline. It follows the shoreline of the Potomac River on the eastern side. The other side of the river is National Airport. And on the eastern side, you have Joint Base Bowling, used to be Bowling Air Force Base. You have a lot of other national. Assets and facilities on that side of the river. So you fly it right over the river, right over the shoreline. And there's an admonition that you must maintain 200 feet or below until you reach the Woodrow Wilson Bridge. And that's about four miles south

• 15:50Speaker 03

  of the airport. The reason for that 200 foot ceiling on your helicopter operation is so you do not conflict with traffic arriving at National Airport.

• 16:02Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about a way that you can help support the podcast if you're not already. To support the channel is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at just $5 a month. And when you sign up, you get access to all of our episodes ad free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers. But this is the biggest and best way that you can support the Team House channel and podcast if you'd like to. And we really appreciate that. So go and check us out at patreon.com/the team house.

• 16:44Speaker 08

  So I'm not sure if you would know or not, but they given the congestion and the traffic, is there do the are the pilots that fly these things, are they normally senior? Or is it any pilot can fly it? Or everyone has to learn it, I suppose, at some point, these routes?

• 17:05Speaker 03

  That really speaks more toward the individual services that are operating helicopters. Of course, a civilian helicopter could do the same thing. But to even fly within 30 nautical miles of Washington, you're under a completely different set of restrictions because of national security concerns. So that that cuts off a lot of people, number one. But number two, if you're doing helicopter operations, that's going to be under the FAA won't set specific standards for that. But the individual operators, in this case, the Army, but also the National Park Service, DC Police, Maryland Police, all the the public.

• 17:53Speaker 03

  Operators there and certainly HMX1, the Marine Corps Special Transportation for supporting the President. They're going to have, you know, rules that, yeah, you follow, you follow what the FAA has set out here because this is the way we separate aircraft. So to your, your point, it's, it's unknown whether these people were more junior or more senior, but you, you do have to rely on, and I think it's reasonable to rely on the fact that they're not just going to turn anybody loose in a helicopter flying in that area. They're either going to be a pilot who is under instruction from a instructor who certainly

• 18:35Speaker 03

  would be familiar or somebody who has already demonstrated competence. And, and who knows? Now, this is speculation, but you know, perhaps the reason that they were, this was reported to be a training flight was they were getting a new pilot familiar with that route. That, that could have definitely been, but, but certainly nobody's just going to get into, into a helicopter and just look at a chart and go, yeah, this is what we do. It's going to be a lot more stringent because of the exposure and because of the very congested nature of that area and the absolute requirement to adhere to both the route and the altitudes.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  Thank you. So on the route and altitudes, Randy, so it's been reported that they were out of the corridor you described. I don't know if that's accurate, but just for the sake of the question and that they were at 300 feet instead of the required 200 feet. First question is, as a helicopter pilot, is that, that would be something that would be very evident, I would think. You would know your, your attitude at all times. That's first question. Second question is, although we've heard the discussion between the air traffic control and the helicopter, is that something that they should have noticed and said, for example, you're, you're required to stay below 200 feet, you're at 300 feet, you need to fix yourself kind of thing.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  Cause I mean, I've listened to the, just like most of Americas, listened to the traffic back and forth and that was at least from the thing I heard never discussed. So the two for.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, that, okay, you, you've hit on, Mick, you, not unsurprisingly, you have hit on the heart of this matter at this point, for the facts that we know. You've hit the two very, very important points.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  One of them is that it appears from, and my source is just the ADS-B data, which is, is raw data, that's, that's not somebody's opinion of it, that's what is, it's what comes out. It is a position and it is an altitude. And I've seen that, and anybody can see it, it's, it's, it's public data.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  From a route standpoint, it appears that they were where they were supposed to be. They were near the eastern side of the Potomac. Now, you, you, you don't, for example, for noise, they don't want to be flying over the shore. And the route really doesn't go over the shore. I mean, it, it's not that you couldn't do it, it wouldn't be any major violation, but it, you know, a Blackhawk is pretty noisy. And so they, they prefer to stay over the water, but just barely over the water. So they would be over the eastern shore of the Potomac. And, and it looks like, from looking at the ADS-B data, that, that's kind of where they were. They were right over there.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  So I, I don't think they were in the, in the wrong place. But here's the problem.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  There is a, there's a system

• 21:48Speaker 03

  that the FAA has, and it's called a conflict alert. And what it does, it alerts a controller if two targets that are in his airspace there are on a collision course and are co-altitude or approaching co-altitude. In other words, it's the same altitude and their, the, the targets' tracks will converge. Before that happens, they will get, depends on the speed, a number of seconds, a red, well, now it's red, it used to be monochrome, but it says CA, which is conflict alert, and it's an audible as well as beep. And then the controller

• 22:29Speaker 03

  who is, who's responsible of that airspace would look at it and would immediately call out to that traffic one way or the other. And I noticed when I was looking at the ADS-B data and they were at 200 feet pretty consistently from Anacostia South. And that's not that far. This, you know, it's a mile, mile and a half. However, in just a few seconds before impact, there was a vertical diversion and the altitude reported was 300 plus.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Now, it wasn't, the thing averages, it doesn't do 325 feet. It's like 300 feet, 400 feet, 500 feet. They were above 300 feet. So they had to be at 300 feet or, or very close to it and probably not over 350 feet, but 300 feet. That produced a conflict alert and it may be helpful for me to, to just to show you a few things about the communications, where they occurred and just before impact. Would that, would that be helpful for you?

• 23:49Speaker 09

  Absolutely.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Okay. Now also there, there's a very, and this, this is to your point, Nick, you know, what has been reported, or at least has been, you can get the, the audible on it, which is from a scanner, you know, there's a civilian somewhere listening on an airport scanner and, and some of this is recorded and available on the internet. But that was all VHF communications. And let me, let me explain the difference between VHF and UHF communications in aircraft. Civilian aircraft and those that generally operate in, you know, civilian airports and so forth are on a VHF band. And that's from about

• 24:35Speaker 03

  118 to 135 megahertz. And that's where your Cessnas, all the way up to your 747s, they're all on that same frequency band. And in different places, they will have aircraft on different frequencies. But the common thing is, if you're in an airline or you're approaching Reagan National, and you're within five miles of the airport, you are going to be on a tower frequency. So that is called a local controller, who's the guy in the control tower, who is monitoring the traffic within five miles of the airport. He'll be on, they'll be all on one frequency, and I forgot what it was, I used to know it, it's like 11825 or something.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  But, don't quote me on that, because I have to look it up, but doesn't matter. They will all be on the same frequency. However, military aircraft generally operate on a UHF frequency, completely different band, like 225 megahertz. So, but the tower, of course, has both the military frequencies, as well as the civilian frequencies. And if they're on that frequency that they need to be within five miles of the airport, if it's a military aircraft that only has uniform, that only has UHF capability, and many military aircraft only have that, more and more are getting dual.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  But remember, that's additional radio, additional maintenance, additional weight. Most military operations, all that I've ever done, all use the UHF radio. So it's not unreasonable that a helicopter operating in there and coming out of Fort Belvoir is talking on UHF, because he may have some tactical reasons why he is. And, but he is now talking to Washington Tower on his UHF radio. So he and the tower are talking, there's no problem there. However, and this is going to be important, I think, in the investigation.

• 26:42Speaker 03

  No civilian airplane is going to hear what that helicopter says. They're only going to hear one half of that conversation because when that tower controller hits his, hits his transmit button, he is transmitting on UHF, which goes out to UHF traffic, military traffic in this area. And he also goes out VHF for the civilian traffic in this area. It's a co, it's a cooperation, it's co-frequency. So in this case, the transcripts that came out were only from the VHF side. You never heard the military aircraft responding. Wasn't heard at all. It was certainly heard and it was recorded, but most, you know, a civilian scanner is not

• 27:26Speaker 03

  going to be tuned to that frequency and isn't going to pick it up. So initially, we only heard one part of this conversation and I was going, wait a minute. Why are we not hearing acknowledgement when the Black Hawk is, is told to do things? Well, the reason was he was, he or she was operating on a uniform on UHF. And the rest of the traffic and what came out originally was all VHF. So I hope that's not confusing, but here's what happened. The, and I got both of them fortunately. So here, here is what happened on a minute prior to impact and, and at impact.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  Fifty-eight seconds prior to impact. Let's, let's set up the picture. You have the Blue Street 5342, and that is the regional jet that is coming from the south to the north. Now, he's following essentially the Potomac River. And he's coming up over the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, which in Washington, we know that's where the, I think it's 395 crosses the Potomac.

• 28:50Speaker 04

  It may be time to try something else. Extensure is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensure is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection. Common colds, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur.

• 29:32Speaker 04

  Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 29:42Speaker 10

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 30:10Speaker 03

  And it's an important landmark. It's about five miles out. So the first thing we have is Blue Street 5342. About a minute and 30 seconds prior says, "As you cross the bridge, change to runway 33. 33 cleared to land." Now, there are two runways at Washington. That's 01. 01 is north. Think of it as just directly north. And then runway 33, which crosses that runway, and it's on the airport. It's not located anywhere else. And it crosses it, but it is actually aligned to the northwest. That is a heading of 330 magnetic, 330 degrees versus 010 degrees, which is roughly north.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  So what they did, the controller very reasonably had a departure that he needed to get out, and there are just too many airplanes stacked up on finals. So what he does is he says, hey, can you take runway three, three? And it and the pilot looks at it and he says, sure, we have it's safe for us. We can do that. He says, okay, after you cross the bridge, change to runway three, three, runway three, three, cleared to land. So when he crosses the bridge at five miles, instead of just going straight to the airport, he's going to make a slight right turn. And he's going to set up so that he is in a good position to turn gently and then be aligned with runway three, three, landing to the northwest.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  Okay, that's the picture. So Blue Streak is now crossing the bridge and Pat's two, five, or excuse me, Pat, yeah, Pat's two, five, which is the call sign for the military Blackhawk. And Washington Tower says, only on UHF, by the way, so nobody else is hearing this. Pat's two, Pat's two, five, traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge at CRJ, he's at 1,200 feet, setting up for one runway three, three. Okay, he's calling out this traffic. Now, he's not even, he, at this point, Pat's is just by the Anacostee River.

• 32:21Speaker 03

  He's not even close to the airport yet. But he's letting him know, hey, this is going to be your traffic. So you're going to, you need to start looking out for him because you have to maintain visual separation with him. So he calls him out and says, hey, by the way, Pat's two, five, traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, CRJ at 1,200 feet, setting up. Pat two, five replies, Pat's two, five, has the traffic in sight. Request visual separation.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  Completely, he says, I see that traffic is what he's saying. I see that traffic way out there. I see him. And I want to maintain visual separation with him, which is correct. Absolutely. And so Washington Tower comes back immediately and says, visual separation approved. Completely normal, completely reasonable. In other words, he says, hey, there's an airplane over there. You want to start looking for him. And Pats D five says, yeah, I see him out there. I want to stay visually separated from him. And the tower says, okay, Roger, visual visual separation approved. That's exactly what you should do. There's it just, you

• 33:37Speaker 03

  know, applaud that. That is the way you keep separated.

• 33:43Speaker 06

  Randy, when he, in in practice, what does that mean? When he says, visual separation approved? Does that mean that the responsibility of for separation becomes that pilot who has said that?

• 33:57Speaker 03

  Yes, because he will, he will be, in other words, the civilian aircraft is it civilian aircraft is operating under a different set of flight rules. Also, he's operating under what's called IFR or instrument flight rules. And in this case, the tower controller is responsible for all traffic, again, within five miles. So he's talking to both of these, both of these targets. He's talking to civilian airplane, and he knows what he is going to do. He's going to make a circling approach to three, three. And that's set in stone. The helicopter is more maneuverable and is VFR traffic, which is visual flight rules.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  So the helicopter is obliged to see and avoid. And when he is in the purview of this local controller, see and avoid means that the controller is going to call out traffic to him that he needs to see and avoid. And if he doesn't see him, let's say, for example, he says, he points the traffic out and he says, you know, traffic south of the bridge, you know, past two five, past two five does not have the aircraft in sight. Okay, the tower may tell him, okay, hold where you are.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  Because there might be a conflict. But he didn't say that because he said he has it in sight. He has it in sight. Okay, perfect. We have an aircraft that sees him. He sees him. He's more maneuverable. He is also a helicopter. He's on this route. Maintain visual separation. And then he's visual separation approved. So he is going to see and avoid because he does see them. And he certainly is maneuverable enough to avoid him. So he is now responsible for that separation. Even though the the the tower, if the tower sees something wrong, he's going to step in and say something. But he is now responsible because he said he saw the traffic and he sees the traffic and he will avoid it.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  Can you address, Randy, the idea that he may have been looking at another aircraft? The helicopter pilots might have been looking at another aircraft. So they thought they were obviously visually separated, but they weren't. And then the aspect of using night vision goggles in an area like this in a city with, you know, I'm again, not a pilot, but I've used nods a lot. Very difficult to distinguish, you know, lights when you're in a city. But anyway, if you could hit those both.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  Yes, and again, as usual, you have hit the seminal points that I think are going to be very focal to this investigation.

• 36:40Speaker 03

  The there was traffic that was departing runway one to the north. And they, according to the data, that they were airborne at this point. Now, also, I didn't know until yesterday whether the Secretary of Defense confirmed that the pilots of the Blackhawk were using nods or night vision goggles, night observation devices. That, as I understand, is a very common doctrine in Army aviation at night. Because for, I'm sure, for a number of reasons.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  One of which is that if you're operating over very low light areas like desert, you have a loss of contrast. You can't tell where up is. And it's very reasonable to use use nods in those environments.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  They very, very easily could have mistaken the aircraft that departed from Reagan National that was actually taking off. And this gets into it a little bit later when he's told to pass behind that aircraft. If he is focused on that aircraft and thinks that's the aircraft he's supposed to be flying, or excuse me, he's supposed to be avoiding, then he certainly wouldn't have seen, or probably would not have seen, the other one. Because there's something called anchor bias. And what it is, is if you're told to look for traffic, and you see traffic in that area, and your brain sees it and says, "Yeah, I'm locked on. I know that's the traffic. Yep, I'll follow him.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  I'll pass behind him." It's happened to me. I've done this before, where there were multiple aircraft in an area, and I'd look, and I'd see, and maybe my first officer would help me and see it as well. And I'd see it and said, "Yep, we've got them in sight." But that was another aircraft that was close by. And my mind would be on that aircraft, the wrong one, until, "Whoa, what is that? Oh, that's the airplane we're supposed to be passing." Not an uncommon error. And when you're in visual separation, it's one of those things that until you're absolutely sure that you know that you're looking at the right aircraft, you don't call them in sight.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  But then again, if that's the only one you see and you think it is, that's a very easy mistake to make. The thing that I didn't know was that they reportedly, reported by Secretary of Defense, they were using night vision devices. They were using NOS. And Anybody who's ever used those wonderful terrible things knows a couple of things about operating with those. And one of them is that they give you a very different sense of perception and particularly depth perception.

• 39:48Speaker 03

  Where it is different. I mean, your brain gets used to it and you can fly perfectly well with them. But it is different. The other thing is, is a concept called dazzle. And that's where, remember, these are light amplifying devices. And if you have, for example, landing lights from aircraft, these are 1 million candle power bulbs or LED arrays that are extraordinarily bright. And I would, I just can't imagine getting hit with one of those wearing nods, because I'm sure there's some, some more sophisticated suppression since when I flew

• 40:31Speaker 03

  them, but it certainly can produce at the very least a distortion. The other thing with nods is that your cockpit scan, in other words, your outside inside scan is going to be different. Because you really lose a lot of peripheral vision and seeing things, for example, like your altimeter, other things, you certainly need to scan that particularly at night. But you're, you're gonna have to move your head to do that because your, your field of vision is going to be much more narrow. So those are really important points.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  And, and again, just throwing this timeline down, because I think this is gonna spur this discussion a little bit, that

• 41:19Speaker 03

  remember, the last thing we talked about was that PATS 25 reported the traffic in sight, visual separation approved.

• 41:29Speaker 03

  20 seconds prior to impact, there is a conflict alert, which the controller in the tower immediately sees. And you can even tell in his voice, his stress level goes up. And he calls on the military frequency, on the uniform frequency. He says, "Pat 25, do you have the CRJ in sight? Pat 25, we have the CRJ in sight, request visual separation." Again, 15 seconds prior to impact, tower says, "Pat 25, pass behind the CRJ."

• 42:11Speaker 03

  Pat 25 says, "Affirmative." And that was the point of impact. So there was, you know, 15 to 20 seconds prior, there was already, "Hold on a minute. We shouldn't have a conflict with this traffic." But the ADS-B shows that they had already climbed between 200 to 300 feet, or possibly more at this point, which puts them in exactly the same altitude as this CRJ who is descending to land on runway 33. And that, those last few seconds, I think, are going to be a major focus of this.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  You know, why did these two airplanes get in the same airspace at the same time? The civilian aircraft, the airliner, was doing from the track and from the altitude readout was exactly where he was supposed to be and doing exactly what he was supposed to do. Again, we have a cockpit voice recorder and a flight data recorder from them just to, you know, it'll help verify and help support the facts of the minimal data we have now. But he was where he was supposed to be. And at this point, at least judging by this data, I mean, it's clear that they came together at a point that they had had a collision.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  But Mick, you hit on these points that are going to be absolutely seminal, not just to the investigation, but to the more important point of this. The reason we investigate mishaps is we want to find out what happened in.

• 43:55Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extentur, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extentur is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extentur is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection, inflammation

• 44:40Speaker 04

  in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain, or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extentur. Learn more at extentur.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 44:55Speaker 05

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 45:25Speaker 03

  Explicit detail. And then we need to find out what the root cause. In other words, was there a... There's always a chain of causation in mishaps. In other words, this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens. For example, if... The airliner was only going to land on runway zero one, he wouldn't have been out there. But that's part of the normal operation of the airport. We use runway zero one and three three. We use one one a lot more than we use three three, but we use three three a lot. But it circumstances were such that, yeah, he needed to use three three, the controller

• 46:05Speaker 03

  wanted to put him on three three for traffic separation. And yeah, that had it not been for that. There has been talk about shutting down runway three three. Because it is shorter and it is only used by airplanes that are more capable to use it because you got to stop pretty quickly on it. And that's reasonably safe. But there's been talk of that. So that's going to be a discussion. There'll be discussion about using using nods in in this area, you know, whether that was contributory or not, that's going to be a discussion. Visual separation, perhaps they they may think about changing

• 46:49Speaker 03

  some of these routes to give more more space between helicopter operations in the airport. Again, these are things that you look at after the fact and after you get all the facts in. But but there are some really important points in in this that I think that if there's any good to come out of this horrible tragedy is that we're going to learn things from it. And hopefully, we're going to act on those things and make it make it even safer than it is. And it is safe.

• 47:23Speaker 06

  Randy, if they if they had kept, you mentioned the variance in height. If they had kept below 200 feet, would things have been different? I know that's a very narrow margin for error, but nevertheless.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  It is, but there would not have been a conflict because that is, you know, that is, that is with good reason, an allowed altitude. It's the upper limit of the allowed altitude, but it's allowed on, on that route. And even with that, they would have been separated by about 200 feet. Now, normally, we, we worry about 200 foot separation of, uh, vertical separation of aircraft tremendously. However, helicopter to airplane, little bit different because the helicopter is so much more maneuverable than the airplane. And it's also, uh, slower. So he can maneuver to, to stay away from that, from that jet, which is much less maneuverable.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  Uh, and no, you know, had he been, uh, 50, even 50 feet, but that, that's more than, than uh, we certainly would, would want to do. But if, if he had stayed at 200 feet, uh, the RJ was not lower than he was supposed to be, there would have been, uh, probably about 150 to 200 feet vertical separation, which yeah, that's less separation than, uh, than I would like, but it is appropriate and, and legal for that area. And that's why we separate them by altitude.

• 48:59Speaker 06

  Now, had he strayed, talking about lateral separation, had he strayed outside his route in addition to the, the vertical error?

• 49:10Speaker 03

  At this point, it doesn't, it doesn't look like it, but, but, and it's, it didn't look like he, he strayed away by much because looking at where the aircraft fell and where the crash site was, it was within, I don't know, 100 feet of the, the lateral edge of, of, of where that route is. And the route is, the route's defined by a blue line and it, it doesn't really, uh, there, there are some, some, uh, there's some leeway for that. So you, you can go one to one side or the other a little bit, but not miles, but that's the route that you're supposed to be on. But, but it, it, it, at least at this point, it appeared to be, he was

• 49:53Speaker 03

  within the lateral limits, if, if not very slightly out of it. But, but I don't think, I think that the vertical separation is going to play a much larger role, uh, in this than the lateral separation.

• 50:09Speaker 06

  And obviously, if he had picked up the right aircraft, which may be another factor there here. And you know, to to the the point you were discussing earlier about nods. In addition to depth perception, in addition to dazzle, if you're at. If you're you're flying relatively low, I imagine, I mean, you've got the backscatter of lights from the city itself. Right? I mean, trying to pick out an object against that, even if you're not on a moving platform yourself is incredibly difficult. It gets back to.

• 50:40Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. But because i- i- if I could pick one of the more visually conflicted areas in the country, um, New York City would be one of them.

• 50:56Speaker 03

  Washington DC would be at least the top one in in the top three. Because you have everything from monuments that are lit up brightly to normal lights to aircraft lights to the Potomac River, which is dark, uh, right in the middle of this thing. And it is a it's a visually confusing area. Absolutely right. And then when you're wearing nods. It it and you get in in your periphery. You get a million candle-powered bulb coming coming from a a aircraft is landing lights.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  It would just, I can't imagine a a worse place to to operate. I I would I would hate that. But then again, if they're, uh, and again, th- this is going to be an important question about. Uh, should they should they operate with nods there because there is there is a a positive safety reason to to use those because you you can see a a lot of of features that in in in that have low light conditions, such as the surface of the water. You can see that with the nods. However, it's going to produce a lot of visual conflict because of the other lights. So that's a balance, and I think that will certainly be looked at and and carefully addressed.

• 52:21Speaker 06

  In 2015, I was the CEO of the Marine Raider Regiment and we lost seven Marines plus the Army lost a Black Hawk crew in a crash in Florida, actually, in Destin. And a couple of things, you know, that stand out, I mean, it was, it was poor weather, a decision was made to fly, et cetera, et cetera. But nods were a factor in that, too, in the backscatter against the city and disorientation. But one, one of the things that came out that I've noticed has also come out here in the, in the post-crash discussions are, you know, how experienced were the pilots, et cetera, et cetera. Well, both in that case in 2015 and apparently here, the pilots were very experienced.

• 53:05Speaker 06

  But I think most people, and I haven't flown a helicopter, most people don't understand that with all the experience in the world, it's, it's very, very easy to make an error. And, and, you know, 999% of the time, it has no consequences. But just simply to say, well, how could this happen because they were experienced is, you know, to me, rather a kind of a vacuous statement. I mean, flying a helicopter is hard, I guess is what I'm saying, especially in 2019. And there's a reason why I don't do it.

• 53:40Speaker 03

  It is.

• 53:41Speaker 06

  When no one wants me to do it.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  That, it is hard. And, and, you know, we also have to look at, and I'm not in any way belittling or, or otherwise minimizing a horrible, horrible event like this. But our national airspace system in the United States with US aircraft is unarguably the safest in the world. Doesn't mean it's perfect, and it doesn't mean that we don't occasionally have mishaps and sometimes very bad mishaps such as this.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  But the system does work, but it is one that is and must be always analyzed, it has to be examined, it has to be changed where we can change things and make them safer. And we used to have, and this is the thing about, about mid-air collisions.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  It used to be when I started flying airliners, it was either radar would point it out, or you'd see it visually, or you have rules to separate instrument aircraft. But there was nothing in the cockpit that would tell you the presence of another aircraft. Nothing, zero. And they developed a very, very good system. Now, it's, the system's called TCAS, or Traffic Collision Avoidance System. And this works really well when you're above 1,000 feet. It is inhibited at low altitudes, only because it can't, if it sees aircraft on the ground

• 55:34Speaker 03

  at an airport and you're going toward it, if you didn't inhibit it, it would think there was a conflict between you and them, because you're going to be coming close to them. So it is inhibited under a certain altitude. But from, in normal altitudes that we operate at, I'll tell you, that system has saved thousands of lives, because it will actually generate a conflict resolution advisory, and it will communicate with both aircraft, excuse me, with both aircraft, and in real time, will separate the aircraft, they'll make one go above it and one go below it, and it has, because problems happen we don't expect.

• 56:16Speaker 03

  And we're using this wonderful technology and automation to help us prevent these things. There may be, in the future, there may be an upgrade to this, or an addition to it that may help at low altitudes. Of course, both aircraft have to be equipped with it. So, you know, technology eventually will help us with this, as it did with our TCAS system that has, again, saved, documented, saved thousands and thousands of lives. And this is just an area where you get below 1,000 feet in the landing configuration that...

• 57:00Speaker 03

  Is it would be very rare to have a conflict in this area, extremely rare. And it just happened to be the all, everything lined up perfectly. Uh, in this, this congested airspace in a small area. Uh, with two dissimilar aircraft doing dissimilar things. And, uh, I, I think, uh, when it's investigated and, and recommendations come out, I think the, the important thing is we won't, we won't have a report for this for at least 12 months, probably 24. Uh, there will be recommendations that the National Transportation Safety Board will make, and they make recommendations to the FAA. Congress watches this very carefully as well.

• 57:44Speaker 03

  And some of the recommendations may be equipment, they may be procedures, probably equipment and procedures. And the, the thing is, we need to learn from this and we, when those recommendations come out, we need to listen to them. And we need to, if it costs money, I think there, the, the value of having a safe national airspace system. Uh, is it's a, it's a cost that we need to, we need to pay, we need to pay that. Uh, because, uh, we, we, you really can't afford in this country that still has the best in the world. We can't allow it to, to fall back. We need to pay attention to those recommendations.

• 58:26Speaker 08

  Randy, uh, unless the other gentleman have, uh, questions along this topic. Uh, I just wanted to segue really quick and I know it's early, it just happened, but wanted to see if you have any preliminary thoughts on the, uh, crash in Philadelphia last night.

• 58:42Speaker 03

  Uh, that was, uh, I, I, I've, I've seen the video of it and, uh, unfortunately this morning I, I found the, the facts are just heart wrenching. Um, this was a, uh, we call it, we used to call it Lifelight. This is a, um, uh, jet aircraft that is used to, uh, transport medical patients from, uh, one place to another.

• 59:07Speaker 03

  And of course, Philadelphia has a very renowned children's hospital. And I don't know the facts of what the patient needed or where they were going. But I understand the patient was on board. She was a child. Her parents and a few other people, family members, I think, as well as the in-flight medical people and the crew were on board. And it was, it happened shortly after takeoff. It was a Lear jet, which Lear jets are an older airplane. It's a great airplane. I've flown them.

• 59:47Speaker 03

  And it has a pretty decent safety record by itself. Many Lear jets, and I don't know about this one, are a little older.

• 59:59Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extentur, Depamocumab ULAa. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extentur is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extentur is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 1:00:42Speaker 04

  Common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flu-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extentur. Learn more at extentur.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Than some of the modern jets, but.

• 1:01:35Speaker 03

  They actually are overrepresented in the air ambulance category and I'm not sure why, maybe those were some of the first to become, put big doors on them and so forth and equipment to support medical patients in flight. But I do know that there are a number of Learjets that are air ambulances. There are other ones too, Cessna citations and others, but Learjets are represented in that. I don't know, it's very unusual because the weather wasn't bad and from what I saw, it was

• 1:02:18Speaker 03

  a relatively high-speed impact and that could be any number of things, but it didn't, fortunately, didn't happen over water or over somewhere where we won't be able to start putting, putting all the facts together and likely it does not have, it may, but I don't think it does. They usually don't. It probably does not have a flight data recorder or cockpit voice recorder. However, there's a lot of other data that we can determine from a very careful investigation of the mishap. But

• 1:03:02Speaker 03

  very sad, my heart goes out to those people, I just can't imagine anything worse. But

• 1:03:09Speaker 03

  were they, were they connected anyway? No, except my grandmother always told me bad things happen in threes. So that's, that's, it was just, I think it's a bad coincidence because there certainly doesn't appear to be anything that could possibly connect these two, these two mishaps at that time.

• 1:03:31Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's important, obviously, to point out just the human tragedy of both, right, sixty seven people perished, including children in the the incident at Reagan, and then I think six died in this. So to Randy's point, obviously, it costs to improve the safety and security of US aviation, but it's, you know, in my opinion, worth every penny. Just think of the devastation this has caused. So I just want to say thanks because I invited Randy. Or by the way, Randy's also a medical doctor, so if you feel inadequate.

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  Add that to it.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  But thank you. Thanks, Randy. Appreciate it. I think hopefully when this podcast gets around, it really does help people be educated what what actually happened. So super, super appreciate you taking the time.

• 1:04:25Speaker 03

  It's my honor. Absolutely.

• 1:04:29Speaker 06

  Great having you on.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a pleasure, Randy. Thank you. Randy, do you have anything where you'd like to plug or anything like that? I mean.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  Good question. Yeah, the only thing I would plug is sort of as as George H. W. Bush said, stay the course. Pay attention to the facts. Stay with the facts. Don't start moving off into the taking the exit to

• 1:05:03Speaker 03

  imagination town. Let's stick with the facts. The facts can be kind of boring. And the investigation is long. But I have a lot of confidence that we are going to come out with a very thorough investigation and some good recommendations. And when the recommendations do come out, this is the only plug I'd make. When they do come out, to take the five minutes to send an email to your congressman and your senator saying, hey, I saw those recommendations. I think they're pretty good. I think we need to fund that. That I think will help immensely because, boy, when Congress has to fund something because the people are demanding it for safety,

• 1:05:49Speaker 03

  it will often get funded. But if you say nothing, these things break into the next news cycle. So once the recommendations from the NTSB come out, support them.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  Good point. Yeah, very well said.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Very, yeah, well, these are going to be more shilling types of plugs. I'm sorry, Randy. All of our links in description, Mick Mulroy, Fogwell, Longwell, you want to find them. It's down in the description. Andy Milburn, When the Tempest Gathers, his book, link is in the description as well. Jason Lyons, any and all links are in the description. And the best way to keep the show going is patreon.com.

• 1:06:27Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depomocamab ULAa. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor.

• 1:07:08Speaker 04

  Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:07:27Speaker 10

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Slash the team house. Randy, thanks again. This is incredible.

• 1:08:03Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection,

• 1:08:47Speaker 04

  inflammation in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at Extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:09:03Speaker 05

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses, like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans, up to $400,000, help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at OnDeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:09:39Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection,

• 1:10:24Speaker 04

  inflammation in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:10:39Speaker 10

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at OnDeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:11:18Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extensure. Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extensure is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensure is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 1:12:01Speaker 04

  Common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:12:18Speaker 05

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at OnDeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:12:49Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extensure. Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting,

• 1:12:57Speaker 04

  It may be time to try something else. Extensure is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensure is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection. Common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flu-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur.

• 1:13:39Speaker 04

  Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:13:49Speaker 05

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at OnDeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:14:19Speaker 09

  What would you like today? Can I get a number two? Anything else? Same shift, different day. I need a smoke. What can I get you? Can I get a number four, number seven, number eight? Same shift. I need a smoke. Different day.

• 1:14:34Speaker 11

  Using nicotine to relieve stress might just make you feel worse. Break the cycle and quit nicotine with free daily texts, expert tips, and community support from X Program by Truth Initiative. Visit XProgram.com to start your quit journey today.