Behind the Scenes Minis: Unexpected Information

Tracy talks about how she first became interested in Casimir Pulaski's story, and how her focus changed during research. She also talks about selecting episode topics and later learning the subject is problematic. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:08Holly Frey?

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• 1:40Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 2:45Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 2:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

• 2:59Holly Frey?

  And I'm Holly Frey.

• 3:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  We talked about Casimir Polaski this week, whose name in Polish, even with practicing, I feel like I said very badly, the one time that I tried to say it.

• 3:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  I, wow. So as I said at the top of the episode, he wound up on my shortlist back in 2019 when that Smithsonian Channel episode was happening. I did not watch the episode at that time. So mostly what I had to go on was like the stuff that came out from Smithsonian Channel, writing about it, news reporting about the thing. And I was really intrigued by the idea that this person who had fought, you know, been an officer in the Revolutionary War, may have been intersex. But then, doing the actual research into this episode, looking into it, into it a lot farther, I feel like people are going to come at me. I just don't

• 3:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  think those are his bones from the monument.

• 4:01Holly Frey?

  I don't either.

• 4:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  So while I, I appreciated the opportunity to talk again about how there have always been, always, all through history, all over the world, always people whose lives and whose bodies just don't line up with the place and time that they're living in terms of the sex and gender expectations. I just, I don't think those are his bones.

• 4:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  I said in the episode that I watched this Smithsonian Channel thing on the very last day of research. And the reason that it was on the very last day of research was that, like, In doing all of the reading, I was like, I don't think those are his bones. What did they actually say on this TV show about the DNA research? And it was mitochondrial DNA research, which is passed through the maternal line. And I couldn't find clarity on exactly what was said. There was just a lot of vagueness in the various writing about this TV show and the, the research that led into it.

• 5:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna have to get Paramount Plus to watch this thing. Because that was the place where it was available. And I watched it and I had a lot of frustrations because a lot of the episode is not really about, like, the DNA research is kind of the big capstone at the end and the announcement of, yes, there's a match. The big, that's just the big reveal at the end of the episode. But a lot of the episode is more about building a case that this person could have been intersex.

• 5:43Holly Frey?

  Gotcha.

• 5:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so they kept doing things like comparing portraits of Casimir Pulaski to a medical illustration illustrating someone who had congenital adrenal hyperplasia. And I was like,

• 5:59Holly Frey?

  Okay.

• 6:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  That doesn't really have anything to do with whose bones these are, or whether that was Casimir Pulaski, or whether, like, you're, you're seeing a similarity between, like, an 18th century, or maybe 19th century from later on portrait, and a medical text illustration, like, this, that's not really proving anything.

• 6:25Holly Frey?

  Right, but you understand that's the narrative structure, is that they're building the audience to want them to be that.

• 6:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right, right.

• 6:32Holly Frey?

  They want that outcome for the bones.

• 6:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, there was a portion of the episode where they had an intersex person.

• 6:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  Dress in the uniform of what he would have worn. And I was like, this is also not, not about the DNA research.

• 6:51Holly Frey?

  You only wanted a half hour show of DNA results.

• 6:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I wanted, I really, that was the only thing that I was really there for was to find out, like, what did they actually say about this DNA research? And then when they got to that moment in the show and the answer was, there's a match between this talus bone and this other bone, I was like, I think I said, what? Out loud, because that is not what I thought was gonna happen. I was expecting that it was gonna be something else that was inconclusive and that it was just gonna sort of be like, based on all of this other stuff that we have talked about over the course of this episode and this.

• 7:24Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 7:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  But that, when they were like, no, this is, this, there's a match, I was very surprised.

• 7:30Holly Frey?

  Oh, see, this makes total sense to me and how you would write an episode like that for television.

• 7:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  It, it does to me too, but it was still irritating.

• 7:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Does that make sense?

• 7:40Holly Frey?

  Like, I feel like, you know, they know what answer is coming and they need to make it such that by the time you land the, the plane there, the audience can accept that information.

• 7:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 7:54Holly Frey?

  Because otherwise, there are just one bazillion questions that will irritate other people of like, wait, so what did he look like in his uniform? Are you sure nobody knew? How did this? You know what I mean? Like.

• 8:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:06Holly Frey?

  That's really why they're writing it that way.

• 8:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  It was one of those things where I was like, I understand how these shows work. And I, like, I understand how a one hour documentary, TV show, like, I, I understand conceptually what's happening, but I still found a lot of it very frustrating. I also, the tests that were done on these, they were not in any way non-invasive. It was like, drill a sample out of the bone.

• 8:32Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 8:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  And that's, there has, you know, have been less invasive methods, methods for things that were done that have been developed in the more recent years, but this was, that's not what was done in this case. Anyway, I just, I, by the time I finished watching it, I was like, I, I needed to watch this so that I could understand what was actually said, like, what was said and what was the substantiation for what was said. But then I was like, I wish I hadn't had to spend an hour of my life on that.

• 9:01Holly Frey?

  I'm gonna ask you a question that's gonna sound obnoxious.

• 9:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 9:05Holly Frey?

  Why didn't you just jump to the end then?

• 9:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  Why didn't I just jump to the end?

• 9:11Holly Frey?

  Because I, I, I mean, it might just be like the result of my kind of ADHD brain. I'm like, I'm not, if I'm not in it, I'm not in it. I'm gonna skip ahead and see what I can find that actually like hits the dopamine receptors and get out.

• 9:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I think I, I, I didn't know that there was not going to be useful material in the rest of the episode until I had seen it. What I really would have appreciated if, would be if there had been a publicly available transcript of it

• 9:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  that I could have just read through because that would have gotten a lot faster. And it would not have had the things about it that, it would not have had some of the things in it that would have frustrated me. So anyway, um, and, and now I have Paramount Plus things that I can watch.

• 10:01Holly Frey?

  Well, that's a good Star Trek time coming to you.

• 10:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  It is a lot of Star Trek time. And it was a weird irony because Patrick and I had just gone through our streaming services and we had, we did things out because we were subscribing to a lot, a lot of them. And I was the only one at that moment who was watching anything on Paramount Plus. And both of the things that I was watching had gone on like the mid-season hiatus. And I was like, we can just get rid of this and I will probably come back to it at some point later. And then not very long at all after that was, oh, I need to watch this thing from Smithsonian Channel. And that's where I could watch it. So I was really interested in, in the way that Casimir Pulaski has been talked about,

• 10:45Tracy V. Wilson?

  like as a figure from the American Revolution, as a figure related to like Polish immigration and, and Polish national pride, Polish American pride, all of that. Multiple articles that I read that talked about that, talked about, uh, how today is Kachuko, whose name I'm pronouncing to the best of my ability, was a more influential and important figure in terms of Polish people.

• 11:15Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 11:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  In the Revolutionary War. And there were like at least three or four different articles that were like, he probably didn't get as, as much attention because his name is a lot harder for English speakers to say.

• 11:29Holly Frey?

  Oh, right.

• 11:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I was like, that honestly, probably true.

• 11:35Holly Frey?

  Fair, yeah.

• 11:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  And it's, it's sort of made it, made a layer of it like sense-making of how this person who was, had such a reputation for being kind of arrogant and quarrelsome and writing long letters to the Continental Congress that are like, you are treating me very, very badly, wound up being kind of the illustrative example of, of Polish involvement in the Revolutionary War.

• 12:02Holly Frey?

  Right. You're doing it wrong. The Casimir Pulaski story.

• 12:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Pulaski story.

• 12:09Holly Frey?

  Yeah, yeah, just, yeah.

• 12:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Also, I am aware of Sufjan Stevens' album Illinois, Illinois, that then became a stage production. There is a song on it about Casimir Pulaski Day. I know that exists. I probably own that album. I just, I'd imagine getting lots of emails from listeners saying, are you aware that there's a Casimir Pulaski Day song on this album? Yes, I know. I'm aware. Anyway, I don't think I have anything further to say about, about all of this.

• 12:47Holly Frey?

  I'm, I'm just tickled by what a pill he apparently was to everybody.

• 12:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Well, and that, he was not the only officer from Europe who had that reputation.

• 12:59Holly Frey?

  Right. There's definitely a cultural

• 13:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 13:01Holly Frey?

  clashing element problem to all of that.

• 13:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. And this is something that may or may not come up again on a reasonably near future episode, that I don't know if it will happen or not, but a sort of about the difference between the professional standing armies of Europe and the Continental Army, which especially in the early years was like just volunteers who had maybe been out drilling with their militia two or three times a year. If they were, if they were very young, they might have done that one time or no times.

• 13:36Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 13:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  And were up against armies that had been, you know, drilling and practicing and subjected to continual discipline for, for years of their lives.

• 13:46Holly Frey?

  Yeah. And then a bunch of guys just doing their best.

• 13:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, a bunch of guys doing their best. So you had officers coming over from a tradition of, you know, ongoing service and discipline. Yeah. In a standing army to, you know, volunteer militia members doing their best.

• 14:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  So anyway, maybe that episode will happen, maybe not. I have not figured it out yet.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 14:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hey, everybody, it's Tracy from Stuff You Missed in History Class. That's Alan Goya, a planning engineer at AT&T. He's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, defining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 14:39Speaker 04

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• 14:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  That includes Field Services Manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 14:54Speaker 05

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 14:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 15:03Speaker 05

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• 15:07Speaker 04

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• 15:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 15:13Speaker 06

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• 15:17Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 16:00Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 16:23Holly Frey?

  We've all done it. Tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health Versus Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeart Media's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends.

• 17:05Holly Frey?

  Not to cancel them, not to hype them more, but to actually understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Start asking better questions and listen to Health Versus Hype on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 17:26Holly Frey?

  Guess who's back in the house? The old Gays return for season two of Silver Linings, their hit podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Just wait until you hear what hosts Robert McMillan and Jessi have in store this time around. They strut back down memory lane navigating life, love, loss, and everything that shaped them along the way. And as usual, someone just might break into song. From leather bars to bathhouses, dance floors to drag brunch, nothing stays off limits. These are the kinds of insights that can only come from experience. So listen to your elders, honey, and discover the silver linings you can take with you. All sass, zero filter, and decades of perspective from four friends

• 18:10Holly Frey?

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• 19:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  Talked about Rebecca Smith Pollard this week on the show.

• 19:39Holly Frey?

  Oh, Rebecca.

• 19:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  I said this kind of off, off mic in an aside. I did not know about the anti-Tom novel when I picked this. And it reminded me of when we chose Anne Royall as a live show topic. And we had already, like, we had advertised the, we had advertised the live show. We had had T-shirts made for the live show. And then I was like, oops, there is racism I did not know about.

• 20:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  In this that is troubling to me and I would not have chosen for a live show topic had I known ahead of time that that was going to happen. Because, I mean, we are, we don't shy away from discussing that on the show.

• 20:28Holly Frey?

  No.

• 20:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  But live show episodes are supposed to be fun.

• 20:32Holly Frey?

  In theory.

• 20:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, that one was not really, we haven't really done a live show in a while, but this sort of similarly, even though I was looking for things that were not like rah rah USA, USA, to potentially tie into America's 250. I would not necessarily have picked one that we would need to discuss anti-Tom novels.

• 20:54Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 20:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  At length. Holly, do you remember learning how to read?

• 21:01Holly Frey?

  Um, a little.

• 21:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 21:04Holly Frey?

  I'm wondering if I had a similar situation to you.

• 21:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  We're about to find out.

• 21:09Holly Frey?

  A little frustrated at the pace of instruction.

• 21:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, okay.

• 21:13Holly Frey?

  Took matters into my own hands.

• 21:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 21:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  So my mom read to me a lot. And really, the only television that I was allowed to watch as a small child was Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers, and that was it. And through the combination of Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, and my mother reading to me, I walked into the kitchen one day when I was four and said, I can read. And my mom said, I don't think so. And I sat down and read her, there's a monster at the end of this book, which is the book that she read to me every night because it was my favorite. And my mom was like, I think you have that book memorized. So I went into the another, another part of the house and like pulled a book off the shelf

• 22:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  that I had never been exposed to before, that I think was like a, a school textbook that had been handed down from somewhere. Like it wasn't, it wasn't a novel, it wasn't anything that I had ever read. But I took that into the kitchen and just opened it to a page and started reading from it. Uh, and my mom kind of went, okay, I guess you can actually read then. I stand corrected, which is evidence of both my existence as an early reader and also the fact that I had to be right.

• 22:37Holly Frey?

  Mine is early evidence of what a little shrew I was, which has come up many times. But I remember I have older siblings, significantly older than me. And I remember at one point in time, one of my siblings thought they were gonna have didactic time with Holly and they had like sat down and done this thing where they were like, gonna teach me the word cat and how to read it.

• 23:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 23:02Holly Frey?

  And I apparently just looked at them and said, do you think I'm stupid? Similarly, around four or five, I'm like, it started real early.

• 23:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Holly Frey?

  With like the police dough with this. I also remember distinctly, there was a, I don't know if it was like a yard sale or a secondhand shop, but I remember being quite tiny and looking through books at a secondhand situation.

• 23:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 23:28Holly Frey?

  And picking out a bunch and my mom kind of just buying them for me without really like perusing what they were.

• 23:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Sure.

• 23:35Holly Frey?

  And a lot of them were like spelling and reading instruction books. And I just kind of.

• 23:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Holly Frey?

  Had my own little private classroom in my room that I don't think anybody realized was going on.

• 23:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I grew into one of those kids that got in trouble for reading in class when I was not supposed to be doing that or reading ahead of what we were supposed to be reading out loud because I read a lot faster.

• 24:01Holly Frey?

  Always.

• 24:01Tracy V. Wilson?

  In my head than reading out loud. And even though I already knew how to read when I started kindergarten, like I very viscerally remember the process of sounding things out and being taught to sound things out when, when I came into a word that I did not know. And so when I learned that there's kind of a generation of kids that didn't really learn that at all.

• 24:25Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 24:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  I was like, what do you mean? And I do want to say that like. I don't think there's one way of teaching that works for everybody. Like, there are a lot of kids that have disabilities or learning differences or whatever that like make one particular thing just not work for them. And some other form of instruction is necessary. So I think that's part of it, too. But the idea that there was just no phonics, I was like, what do you mean?

• 24:50Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 24:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  What do you mean people didn't learn how to sound things out?

• 24:53Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I feel like I got more of the, at least like the classwork that I was exposed to was more of the word, whole word stuff. But a lot of my like interest in reading was just driven by wanting to know things.

• 25:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 25:09Holly Frey?

  Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, that was, and it wasn't necessarily stuff I was gonna get taught in school.

• 25:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 25:15Holly Frey?

  So I would just be proactive about it and, I don't know.

• 25:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 25:20Holly Frey?

  Bossy. And what do you think, I'm stupid?

• 25:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 25:26Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 25:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  What a brat. Pollard's methods and the level of granularity in all of the different phonemes does sound to me kind of tedious. The fact that there was so much that she just called busy work, I don't know if other people were calling things busy work in the 19th century. That was just like part of the lingo. But the fact that it was called busy work, I was like, yeah, this does sound like busy work to me, marking all of the phonemes in your reader.

• 25:56Holly Frey?

  Oh, but those kids, like their level of mastery was probably like so far ahead of anybody else in their age group.

• 26:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 26:06Holly Frey?

  That's the thing, sometimes that stuff that feels like busy work is really like drilling things in a way that you will never, ever in your life forget it.

• 26:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  For sure. Yeah, yeah. Side note, I, I went to Stratford upon Avon. On my trip to England and I went to the schoolroom where Shakespeare would have gone to school. I'm not actually sure if there's evidence that he did go to school there, but it would have been the school he would have gone to. And it is a school that's still in operation and they don't start tours until 11 because there is a morning class that like meets in the classroom, the, you know, historic classroom that's still there. And the tour group did just sort of a little simulation of how students would have learned by rote through memorizing things.

• 26:50Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 26:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Which is not at all how it worked when we memorized things when I was a child. You faced the person across from you and you said it into each other's faces over and over. I was face to face with someone who I think may have also been there by herself and had a tote bag that said, though, but she is little, she is fierce. I'm saying that wrong. But anyway, Shakespeare quote.

• 27:17Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 27:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think it is those, though she be but little, she is fierce.

• 27:20Holly Frey?

  It sounds right.

• 27:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think that's right. I suddenly needed to call it up into memory and it wasn't there. Anyway.

• 27:27Holly Frey?

  Though she be but little.

• 27:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, though she be but little.

• 27:30Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 27:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  She is fierce. I will work it out. We'll get there.

• 27:37Holly Frey?

  We've all done it. Tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends. Not to cancel them,

• 28:20Holly Frey?

  not to hype them more, but to actually understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Start asking better questions and listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Guess who's back in the house? The old gays return for season two of Silver Linings, their hit podcast from iHeart's Ruby Studio in partnership with ViiV Healthcare. Just wait until you hear what hosts Robert McMillan and Jesay have in store this time around. They strut back down memory lane navigating life, love, loss, and everything that shaped them along the way. And as usual, someone just might break into song. From leather bars to bathhouses, dance floors to drag brunch, nothing stays off limits. These are the kinds of insights that can only come from experience. So, listen to your elders, honey, and discover the silver linings you can take with you. All sass, zero filter, and decades of perspective from four friends proving that queer joy

• 29:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  only gets better with age on the podcast that never gets old. Listen to Silver Linings, available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 29:39Speaker 07

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• 30:20Speaker 07

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• 30:44Speaker 06

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• 31:27Speaker 06

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• 31:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Long hours, work deadlines, family commitments. You give so much to everyone else. Isn't it time to invest in yourself? The University of Arizona Global Campus is built for working adults with flexible online degree programs designed to fit your life. Your previous education, training, and eligible experience may even help you earn college credit. At UAGC, you can take one accelerated course at a time, helping you move toward your goals in five- and six-week class formats. Visit UAGC.edu today.

• 32:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  A couple of things to talk about. What? The poem, the Trist poem that she and another poet each wrote to one another and had published in the journal. Yeah. I feel a modern reader, reading this today, would go, "That is the most sapphic thing I have ever seen." Yeah. You know, in the era when it was published, if anybody had thought that, it wouldn't have been in the newspaper. But it also had this note from the editor.

• 32:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  Which did not really fit in that moment in the episode, but I found, I don't know, it said, "Our gallantry is shocked at the thought of the spirits of two charming young menstrual girls wandering about at midnight by themselves in this bad world without a protector." And I was like, they, they were, they were not, they were not actually outside.

• 33:12Holly Frey?

  I know that and you know that, but I think this was him going, "Of course, we don't want young ladies to do this." Because he was, was anticipating the, the people that were gonna write in and be like, "Why would you suggest this?" And instead of going, "They're not really doing that. This is a theoretical blah blah blah." He could just go, "Of course, we would, oh, never, never."

• 33:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah. The other thing that I had noted here was just that, like, we have talked before. It has come up on the show, like, in, in almost side mentions of people. People who were enslavers, but also fiercely against secession from the Union during the Civil War. And like, that has just sort of come up in passing sometimes. And this, I think, is the first time that, that I have really been reading the thoughts of somebody who apparently was anti-abolition, but also a staunch, staunch Unionist. It's a weird, a weird tangle to wrap your head around.

• 34:18Holly Frey?

  I have theories. Here they are.

• 34:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  And you had thoughts about this that you were going to share?

• 34:22Holly Frey?

  I really, really do. I think, this is purely my conjecture, I didn't even do the research for this episode, but based on all of the information we have about her, I feel like she might have been a case of one of those people who... Is a very clever person, probably got told as much a lot growing up. And when she hears new information, she digests it and thinks it through and then has ideas about it. And because she's a very clever person, people encourage her to voice those ideas without necessarily really talking through what it all means.

• 35:02Holly Frey?

  And I bet that that's part of why she went on her little weird tirade. Because then later on in her life, she seems to have taken a different stance.

• 35:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 35:19Holly Frey?

  That's my, that's my only thinking. I suspect she was young and processing information she had a hand. Someone influential in her life had said, like, these people are ruining the union with their.

• 35:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 35:35Holly Frey?

  Upstart ways. And she was like, you know what? They sure are. Didn't really like get through all of the, the bigger picture stuff about what was going on. That's my guess.

• 35:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I can definitely say I held some opinions in my teens and early twenties that were bad.

• 35:56Holly Frey?

  We all did.

• 35:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Like very bad.

• 35:58Holly Frey?

  It's part of growing.

• 36:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, when I was exposed to other information, I was like, oh, that is a bad opinion. I will say there will probably be something between now and the end of my life that I think right now that I will be like, oh, that was a bad opinion that I had.

• 36:13Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 36:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  Now I've learned from that. And that was one of the reasons that I kind of went to try to see like, what were her thoughts on this later? I'm also not fully clear, but the parts of this novel that I read, there are conversations that happen that are, it's clear which side is the side that she is setting up as the correct side.

• 36:38Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 36:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh, but then there are conversations that it, like, one of the characters will be basically saying, hey, these are people like we are, we are all human beings.

• 36:50Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 36:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I'm like, are.

• 36:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  Are you on the we're all human beings side? Because it kind of sounds like you might be from this passage. Are you more concerned with this idea of preserving the union? And that's what drive, that's what's driving it rather than being like explicitly pro slavery for racist reasons that, you know, that there were also people that had those opinions. And I really didn't get to the bottom of that. And I might have if I had been willing to read the entire book. But that was too much, was too much.

• 37:26Holly Frey?

  She had just enough information to be dangerous. I'm telling you.

• 37:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 37:30Holly Frey?

  I believe it in my soul.

• 37:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  So yeah, she's a complicated person who, the fact that she, from what I can understand, she put together this instructional method that was very motivated by what she thought actually helped children learn. And also making sure teachers had what they needed to be able to teach.

• 37:54Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 37:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  That part I thought was really good.

• 37:57Holly Frey?

  Terrific. Yeah.

• 37:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  You know, even though I sort of think the amount of diacritical marking of textbooks might have been a little much.

• 38:06Holly Frey?

  Maybe, maybe.

• 38:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Maybe.

• 38:09Holly Frey?

  But also I'm telling you, those kids knew their stuff.

• 38:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that was Rebecca Smith Pollard. Whatever's coming up for you on the weekend. But you know, I hope it's great. There was just a strange noise outside my house and I hope that's not a harbinger of anything.

• 38:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, if there are any strange things happening in your world, I hope none of them are harbingers of worse things to come and that everything that's coming your way is going to be better than what was before. We will be back on Monday with a brand new episode. And tomorrow we'll be back with a Saturday classic.

• 38:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 39:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  You ever show up late to the game and your friends already saved your seat, your drink, even a plate? That's looking out. That's having your back. And that's exactly what AT&T does with the AT&T Guarantee. They know staying connected matters, so they actually guarantee a network that comes through when it counts. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right, just like that friend who takes care of things before you even ask. AT&T: Connecting Changes Everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.

• 39:40Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 40:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Long hours, work deadlines, family commitments. You give so much to everyone else. Isn't it time to invest in yourself? The University of Arizona Global Campus is built for working adults with flexible online degree programs designed to fit your life. Your previous education, training, and eligible experience may even help you earn college credit. At UAGC, you can take one accelerated course at a time, helping you move toward your goals in five- and six-week class formats. Visit uagc.edu today.

• 40:43Speaker 07

  Livrite, publishers of John U. Bacon's New York Times bestseller, The Gales of November, a chronicle of the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald's 1975 shipwreck. "Never has it been told better than by Mr. Bacon in this colorful book," writes John J. Miller of The Wall Street Journal, while author Hampton Sights proclaims that it's destined to be a classic. The Gales of November, now in paperback.

• 41:11Speaker 06

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• 42:11Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.