#913 Dylan LeClair Explains The Financial Repression Occurring Right Now

Dylan LeClair is the Senior Market Analyst at UTXO Management, a digital asset fund investing in the analog to digital transformation of money and the emergent financial system. This week, my brothers Joe & John helped fill in to speak Dylan for our weekly podcast. In this conversation, they discuss the Bitcoin Conference, the most important chart in finance right now, Bitcoin's correlation to the Stock Market, and Inflation. Dylan joins us every Tuesday on "The Best Business Show." To see the video with the corresponding charts that Dylan references throughout the interview, go to "The Best Business Show: LIVE" YouTube Channel ======================= Brave Wallet is the first secure crypto wallet built natively in a web3 crypto browser. No extension required. Store, manage, and grow your portfolio, get NFT & multi-chain support, and more. Download the Brave privacy browser at brave.com/Pomp, and click the wallet icon to get started. ======================= The Pomp Podcast is powered by BetOnline.ag, the world's largest sports betting, casino, poker and horse racing website that accepts cryptocurrency for wagering. BetOnline.ag gives you the ability to use Bitcoin and more than a dozen altcoins to make deposits and withdraw your winnings. There are no crypto transaction fees, and processing is instantaneous and secure. Visit https://promotions.betonline.ag/pomp and use PROMO CODE: POMP100 to receive a 100% matching bonus on any crypto deposit. BetOnline.ag is available in nearly every country around the world, making it the top global gaming destination for crypto users. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Dylan Leclerc is the Senior Market Analyst at UTXO Management. He also writes a newsletter with Bitcoin Magazine. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin, on-chain metrics, we talk about Bitcoin's price, the market structure, and what to expect in the coming weeks. I really enjoyed this conversation with Dylan, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by FTX US. FTX.us is the safe, regulated way to buy and sell Bitcoin and other digital assets. You can trade crypto with up to 85% lower fees than

• 0:44Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:26Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:50Anthony Pompliano?

  for sports, casino games, horse racing, poker and more. Sign up today at betonline.ag and double your deposit with our exclusive podcast promo code POMP100. Go check them out at betonline.ag. All right, let's get into this episode. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Dylan, how we doing, man?

• 3:31Speaker 02

  What's up, guys? Fun week last week.

• 3:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Great week last week. You're home now?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, back, uh, back in the saddle in Vermont.

• 3:38Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, let's talk about some of the, some of the, uh, interesting stuff when it comes to the data that we saw this morning. Inflation numbers, 8.5%. What is your general thoughts, takes on the numbers that we're seeing today?

• 3:49Speaker 02

  I mean, uh, 8.5% seems pretty cheap, you know, if we're comparing it to Miami and $25 drinks in the club. I mean, come on.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  So I saw you guys down there. That was a fun time. I mean, yeah.

• 4:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Two waters were $20. I got two waters, these little Fiji things that live, two of them, $20, $10 each. I was like, you're out of your damn mind, but then I bought two more.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's how they get you. I mean, I think honestly, CPI is understating that. You guys have been saying that for a while. I've been saying that for a while. These are the government statistics, but still, I mean, it's accelerating. A lot of people, the same people that have been calling for, you know, a top in the, you know, accelerating inflation month over month numbers. This time around, I've been saying that the last six months or so, it'll be interesting to see if we get somewhat of a, a kind of a crush of demand. As, as some of these things continue to soar like energy, obviously some stuff like food is, you know, demand is inelastic. And people just need it to survive. So you're seeing a lot of really kind of crazy stuff happen with, say, wheat and agriculture around the world.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  That's really interesting to keep an eye on, but I mean, in terms of just real yields and deeply negative state of basically every, every yield in the entire global bond market, that's accelerating and that's, that's the biggest story in finance today.

• 5:11Anthony Pompliano?

  And do you, what percentage of this do you think, if any, has to do with what's happening in Russia and Ukraine? When it comes to an inflation perspective, right? We've seen the White House has said that a lot of this has to do with Russia and Putin and all of the, the sanctions and whatnot that have been placed on him. Do you think that we're seeing that in the data yet? Or do you think that's to come in the following months?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a roll, but I think just to, to call it Putin's price hike and completely ignore the fact that you had politically enforced lockdowns of the global economy, printed a bunch of money, destroyed supply chains and then said, okay, yeah, like, you know, this inflation is Putin's fault. It's, it's, you know, somewhat gaslighting and straight propaganda. And anyone that kind of believes that is, is, I don't even, I don't even know what, what to say there.

• 5:56Anthony Pompliano?

  You're, you're searching for the name. I can see your, your head spinning and then steam coming out of it. But we get what you're trying to say. So you sent us a bunch of charts, which we appreciate. So let's maybe start with the 10 year versus the 10 year treasury yield, year over year versus US CPI. What are you seeing there?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so put out a tweet about like an hour ago and said this is the most important chart in finance, kind of what I'm referring to when talking about the state of real yields. Uh, US Treasury markets, basically that risk-free rate for the global economy. Um, and uh, it's, it's essentially what every asset in the world is valued off of. Um, the story uh, of 2022 has been in the bond market specifically, especially on the short end, has been just the drastic rise in yields due to this inflation, uh, inflationary environment, right? Every fixed income holder realizes uh, that they're, you know, they're sitting in contracts guaranteed to lose money, so they sell it off. The, the value of those bonds goes down, uh, the yields go up. What you're seeing in, in credit markets and really every single, uh, like equities, everything else, every asset market is, is basically

• 6:58Speaker 02

  duration, uh, which is, uh, basically how these, these assets are priced, right? You can think of duration as the lower yields are, the lower that discount rate is, um, the, the more that these assets will be, be, be priced off of like high multiples. So when, when those yields rise, um, it's basically that duration of the asset goes down and the value of it goes down as well. And so that's what we're seeing. Um, and that's basically why you're seeing every single asset kind of trade in tandem, Bitcoin and the NASDAQ, everything else. We have graphics of that, uh, because it's all about the USD denominator at the moment. Uh, this is basically, you know, reflecting the liquidity tide.

• 7:34Anthony Pompliano?

  So as that chart starts to compress at some point, right? If they raise interest rates and inflation starts to fall on a year-over-year level, what impact does that have on, on the market from a, whether you want to talk about risk assets or whatever, just generally, what impact does that have?

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I mean, the story is even if, uh, it somewhat compresses, uh, I really think this, the story is that the, you know, the 40-year real yield bond bull market, uh, is basically was, you know, shot behind the shed in 2020, 2021, maybe 2022, if you want to call it that. Uh, but I really think it happened post-COVID, uh, where you could just sit in, in treasuries, you could sit in bonds and you could basically just ride this, this wave of ever, ever lower yields and a lot of things, uh, demographics, debt, uh, globalization, let these kind of inflation levels never, never see anything,

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Higher than four or five percent since the eighties. And so this was just basically a very, very good environment for financial assets. And for, you know, specifically because of our world reserve currency status, the U.S. And so if we're seeing that trend shift, which a lot of people like this is a very big picture idea, but a lot of people are, there's pretty big implications for that. And I think the biggest, the biggest losers of all of this are the creditors, the, the bondholders, the people that own these debt securities.

• 8:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. And one of the other charts that you sent over was the U.S. 10-year secular trend that you, you had mapped out here. What, what are you seeing in this chart?

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, same, same idea. We don't have the CPI numbers here, but essentially this, you know, I think Raoul Powell calls it the chart of truth. A lot of people kind of follow this. And this is mapping out a lot of things, but debt and demographics being, being the biggest. And what's not shown here is that with every kind of boom and bust cycle, with every credit cycle that we've seen about eight to 10 years, give or take, we come out on the other side with far more debt at the federal level, at the household level, at the corporate level, aggregate debt to GDP globally, and this is somewhat of an estimate, is around 400%. So we just can't handle higher, higher yields, even, even if it's deeply negative in real terms, adjusted after inflation. In nominal terms, the financial system breaks

• 9:43Speaker 02

  at a certain point, whether that level's three, three and a half, four, we don't know. And, and we'll see what we get to, but there's going to be a breaking point in the bond market as these yields soar, just because of how over indebted the global economy is. Like this is, this is the, the macro picture right now.

• 9:57Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you say the financial markets or the global economy just breaks, right? At some point, I assume you're talking to some degree about the bond market, which you mentioned. But what is the, what is the outcome for like the average retail investor in this scenario?

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So essentially, when, when you talk about the system breaking, what you have in, in this monetary system, this economic system, and why you kind of see these financial crises occur, right? In, in 2008, yeah, subprime mortgages are bad, but why did it tank the global economy? It's essentially because you have fiat denominated assets and liabilities. And during bubbles and during kind of credit expansions, you see the asset liability mismatch. Everybody borrows, invests in assets and the asset side of their balance sheet goes up. Uh, and it's kind of self reinforcing. Everyone feels richer. You reinvest, assets continue to go up, take on more debt. Uh, but when that trend reverses and all of a sudden you have more liabilities than ever.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Um, and because of rising yields, because of inflation, because of just say, you know, a global pandemic that that tanks productivity, what happens? Uh, well, the earnings side of your balance sheet goes down. One person's earnings or one person's spending is another person's income. And it's reinforcing on the downside. And you know, all of a sudden now you have a huge asset liability mismatch, but the bad side. And so what happens is, well, you have an asset liability mismatch. You sell what you can to pay down your liabilities. And it, and it's just a cascading event where everything kind of the house of cards falls down. And so we're not there yet. I mean, I'm not calling for the end of the world. Uh, but this is why these credit, you know, expansion and credit contractions, this is how they work.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Um, fiat money is destroyed through debt, debt, uh, default or repayment. And so when you have kind of these mass default events, these mass insolvencies. Right now, we're kind of in a liquidity risk, uh, environment. What that eventually leads to. Uh, if central banks and governments don't kind of step in and, and help, uh, you know, re-monetize a lot of this debt and, and inflate people's balance sheets is. What happens is that, that liquidity risk turns into solvency risk. And that's when kind of it turns into actually systematic risk for the fiat itself.

• 11:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. And one of the other charts that you have, which we touched on a little bit earlier, but I want to go in a little more detail. Is the CPI, right? So year over year and month over month and kind of how much it's accelerating. Just talk me through your general thoughts on, obviously we've seen, uh, the highest monthly total that we've seen in a long time this past month. At 1.24%, now we're at 8.56% on a, uh, year over year basis. Uh, but just talk me through kind of what you're seeing.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think one of the most fascinating things and shout out to my, uh, partner at Bitcoin Magazine Pro. Uh, Chart Wizard Sam Rule, uh, at Sam J Rule on Twitter. He, he put up this chart. Uh, the most interesting thing for me is the accelerating, uh, trend in the monthly, the month over month, uh, readings. So, you know, we see the obviously the year over year, but. The month over month acceleration continues, right? I think it was 1.1%. Uh, if I'm reading that correctly, it's pretty small on my screen right now. Uh, but we'll be, you know, kind of interesting to see that derivative of inflation. Uh, whether that's accelerating or decelerating and everything now, uh, these month over month readings just continue to accelerate.

• 12:56Anthony Pompliano?

  And we're obviously getting to a point now where if you look at it on a year-over-year basis, it's going to start decelerating to a point, right? Because you can't compound at 9%, 8%, 8%, 9%, 10% year-over-year, given where we started last year. I believe May or maybe it was a month in or around there was the first month that we saw kind of this elevated inflation. Do you think this changes the narrative? Or do you think that it's still kind of consistent, what we're going to see if we see a higher number, maybe 5%, 6%, 7%? That it's still extremely bad and people should be worried?

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the most important thing to understand is that, you know, even when Powell was calling for transitory inflation, he was calling for that in the derivative of inflation, not actually the price levels themselves. He's saying the rate of change is going to be transitory and how high it is. But we're not going to actually see price levels meaningfully drop. Deflation literally can't be allowed to occur in this monetary system. And so, yeah, we may see a transitory level of the rate of change and how high it is. But in terms of just the price levels themselves, this is the new normal, for better or worse.

• 13:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. Yeah. So in simple terms, Chipotle may say a burrito is 25 cents more expensive last year. Maybe this year it's 10%, but it's not going down a dollar. It's not, it's not ever getting those price increases back. So talk to me about US corporate bond spreads and what you're seeing there.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we talked about the duration aspect of credit, about these bond markets, right? Yields are going up in the treasury market. And so what we're seeing is every, basically, all these debt securities are also selling off, right? If you just look at JNK, HYG, these are like junk bond indices. They're just like ETFs that you can trade on Robinhood or anywhere else. They've been absolutely tanking recently. And that's mostly, that's mostly due to the duration risk. Those yields rising, right? So it's kind of like that discount rate is rising. And so those bonds are selling off. The most interesting thing is we haven't really seen the credit side of things. So, and this has to do with basically the corporate credit, right? Like you have a credit rating, I have a credit rating, so do corporates, right? And it's based off their earnings, their balance sheet,

• 14:57Speaker 02

  et cetera. And so what we haven't seen, we started to see it really start to rise, but it's somewhat fallen off in the past couple of weeks, is the credit risk of these corporates. And if we start to see this high inflation meaningfully slow down the economy due to consumers not being able to spend much or just supply chain issues of the like, we might see this credit risk really start to pick up. And that's where we go from, like we talked about earlier, the liquidity risk, higher yields, and this over indebted economy starts to slow things down a little bit to the credit risk, where we really start to see, you know, the stock market, I think it's what 10, 15% off the highs, something like that. This is the chart to watch if you want to look at credit spreads. This is kind of that, that US corporate risk. And this would, would really have a, have a huge effect on the stock market.

• 15:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep. Yeah. Especially if people are predicting recession at this point, that chart could change pretty quickly. So let's talk about correlation to broader risk assets for Bitcoin. I know we've talked about this a lot in the past, but you had an interesting chart that compares Bitcoin's price to the NASDAQ and the correlation that we're seeing there. Just talk me through your general thoughts.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Yep. So, you know, we have two classes of Bitcoin allocators, maybe, maybe more, but really it's you have the hogglers, you have the stackers, you have the people that treat it as money as a unit of account. And the big money, especially the money that's came in over the past couple of years, treats it like for better or worse a beta risk asset. Right? So it's the, over the last four weeks, it's trading at a 0.92% correlation to the NASDAQ, essentially one to one. It's as close as you'll probably get. And essentially, what, what this is showing is that, and I tweeted this out a little bit, it's the people that are, are, you know, the Bitcoin with the numerator, all the stuff you're looking at in Miami, all these news developments, the tech, it's getting better and better. You have more people stacking and more people hodling. But really what it's about right

• 16:46Speaker 02

  now, over the, the past quarter, over 2022, really since November, December, is that the denominator USD, even though it's, it's inflating against real goods and services, against risk assets, against assets themselves, the USD denominator is spent somewhat bidding, right? It's like we're, we're in the midst of, of this credit contraction and, and how bad it gets, we have to wait and see. But that's really the story here is that the, the denominator of USD, whether you want to look at it against other fiats or just Like risk asset conditions tightening in general. Financial conditions are what's driving this and that's why, you know, these assets have such a tight correlation. Eventually it breaks due to the absolute scarcity in the supply and elasticity of Bitcoin and the fact that it is a monetary asset and not a tech stock.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  But I would, I would, I would think, and kind of my analysis shows that this correlation is likely to kind of persist for, for the time being.

• 17:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And what do you think from, I guess, more of a philosophical perspective of like Bitcoin was obviously pitched. And I think most people believed there was this uncorrelated asset to a degree, right? Not only equities, but, but broader financial markets and it was used as a hedge to inflation. A lot of people have been taking victory laps and saying that with the correlation to equities and the broader stock market with, with kind of the risk off over the last few weeks or months or whatever, that that's not the case. What are your just general thoughts on kind of how people should think about that in, in, in more of a 30,000 foot view?

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, I mean, I, I still believe it is somewhat of a, you know, an uncorrelated asset. You know, Anthony would roll out in the bottom of the 2018, 19 bear market when it's down 85% and say, hey, it's an uncorrelated asset. It's the best performing asset. You need someone in your portfolio. It's going to outperform over the long term. And he was dead on, and I, I still think that's completely correct. Really though, if you want to think about it as an inflation hedge, it, it somewhat, you know, front ran the inflation of, of 2021 and 2022. In the sense that you had a lot of people and, and some like, you know, of the traditional economists were saying it's a chart crime.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  But if you compared like Bitcoin to the M2, right? And, and M2, you know, post COVID QE and the trillions of dollars of the, you know, the Fed balance sheet that they expanded. Bitcoin went from, you know, I mean, the lows was, was 4,000, but it went from around 9,000 to where it was hovering around to 50,000 in a few months, right? So it's almost like that, the Bitcoin kind of monetization front ran all of that stimulus and all of that money that was stuffed into the fixed income markets. And now it's just kind of consolidating around and, and being reaccumulated by convicted hobblers and stackers while all the derivative stuff, all the stuff that really caused the blow off top and those, those. You know, huge volatility moves in the spring of 2021. All of that's been kind of wiped out. So you're just kind of seeing this reaccumulation.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  And I still think, you know, in the most pure form, it is an inflation hedge, but maybe not inflation hedge. For CPI, but rather just an opt out of the system entirely. And that's a, that's a pretty big idea that most people are still reluctant to accept.

• 19:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, I, I tend to agree with that. I think when you look at it, kind of, most people just look at the instant reaction, you know, how Bitcoin did three minutes after the, the inflation print comes out. And if it doesn't turn positive, then they start to tell us on inflation hedge. But when you think about it in context, we're at 5,000, $10,000 a Bitcoin when the pandemic started, right? And we're sitting here today at $40,000 a Bitcoin. So whether you want to say it front ran it or reacted to it, like, it's hard to argue that it wasn't an inflation hedge in some degree, right? And, and generally, risk assets have appreciated, but Bitcoin has outperformed to a degree for sure. All right. So let's talk about, you have two more charts here. One of them is the inverse Bitcoin futures, and then you have the VIX underneath it. Talk to me about what you're seeing here.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the VIX, it's a volatility index for S and P 500. Really, it's just kind of one of these risk parameters for tightening financial conditions, fear in the, in the legacy system. The higher the VIX goes, it's, you know, likely the more bloody that the equity markets are in that kind of COVID shock. I think it touched above 80, right? And so if you're just looking at the 2022 chart, Bitcoin futures, I just do this because it's trading during the same hours as the VIX futures, I'm using the CME data. But essentially, the inverse BTC in the VIX chart looks somewhat identical. And that's just, you know, I guess it's similar to the chart I showed with a correlation to the NASDAQ.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  It's just being traded as, I heard someone refer to it as a 24/7 inverse VIX, right? And it's just, it's just a risk parameter for, for the, you know, legacy financial system. And honestly, I think it's one of the, one of the most, like, the best fire alarms for, like, maybe check on, on central bank responsibility, right? So the, the kind of actions that, that will come on the other side of this, probably ensuing crisis, will be more of the same. It'll be more stimulus. It'll be more financial repression. It'll be more volatility. Suppression by central banks. Thus, we can expect the VIX, when we see these high periods of volatility, to be kind of squashed down. In that sense, Bitcoin is probably going to run really, really hard. And that's my base case. And so I think what people are using it as is just a check on central banks. It's good, okay, you're going to tighten.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Well, Bitcoin's going to sell off because it's a free market. It's 24/7, 365 liquid in every jurisdiction in the world. Oh, you're gonna, you're gonna walk back that tightening and you're going to start quantitative easing again? And I'm not talking about tomorrow or next week, but you know, maybe quarters or a year or so down the line. Okay, well Bitcoin's going to react and it's gonna, it's gonna be, you know, the opt out of this crazy system. And so I think that correlation is really, really interesting. And it's something to watch going forward.

• 22:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So the last chart you have is the Z score chart where you're looking at the market value to realize value. Just talk me through what you're seeing here.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Yep, so I thought I'd include one kind of Bitcoin specific chart. A lot of people are getting on me about covering bonds so much and kind of the legacy system. And I guess the reason for that, before I break into that chart, is if you want to understand why Bitcoin's trading at as it is, look at the equity markets. If you want to look at why the equity markets are trading as they are, look at the credit markets. And so that's what I would say and just why I've been so macro specific in my analysis. But to kind of get back to the Bitcoin chart and what this is. A Z score for those are unaware, it's just a standard deviation measure. So, you know, a Z score of one is one standard deviation above the mean. And so what this market value to realize value metric is, is essentially that realized value, realized market cap

• 23:08Speaker 02

  is just the, basically the aggregate cost basis, so the aggregate market cap of every coin when it was last moved. And so if you look at the market value or the price of Bitcoin relative to that, you get a really interesting view of the Bitcoin cycles and how cheap or kind of expensive Bitcoin is relative to that average cost of its users. And so if we just kind of put a Z score on this and look at its trend throughout, throughout history, we get a really interesting look at Bitcoin's kind of like monetization bubbles, as I call them. So right now Bitcoin is in fire sale, absolutely generational bottom level expensive, or level cheap. But at the same time, it's extremely far away from being, you know, overvalued, over expensive cycle top type levels. And obviously you can just tell that by being, you know, 40% off the highs.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  But I think this is just a really, really great way to kind of quantify how cheap or expensive Bitcoin is. And from the looks of it, it's a fantastic time to accumulate.

• 24:00Anthony Pompliano?

  I like it. I appreciate it, man. John, you got any questions?

• 24:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, Dylan, I got one question on, I'm just looking for a little education myself here is I saw that yesterday 146 million long positions were liquidated in the Bitcoin market, helping to drive the price down. Is that a lot? Like, is that something to be expected? Like, can you just talk about that for a little bit?

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I think off the top of my head, Bitcoin futures market's around $15 billion of positions. And so for every long, there's a short. There's never, never more longs, never more shorts. But it's really about the positioning of those, of those longs or shorts relative to kind of that spot price. That's, that's what determines the pain points. That's what determines the forced buying and selling. And really, whenever you see Bitcoin trade, you know, explosively up or down, it's because of these derivative dislocations. So right now, derivatives relative to spot markets have been very, very defensive for much of 2022. We're not seeing the massive levels of kind of the long speculation that characterized the market in 2021. So that's a really positive sign for bulls. It's not, you know, that leverage is there, but it's positioned,

• 25:05Speaker 02

  you know, somewhat evenly relative to the spot market. So I don't think, and not to mention that a lot of this leverage is collateralized with stablecoins, where in 2021, people were collateralizing it with Bitcoin itself. So as the price goes down, your collateral value falls, which leads to forced selling. So 150 million, it's, it's not nothing, but it's more just kind of Bitcoin doing its thing, chopping around. That volatility is kind of an expression of, of, you know, causing these, these over leveraged irresponsible positions. It's just forced liquidations, and it's nothing but a thing. So, you know, derivatives over the long term really don't mean all that much for the trajectory. It's just more, you know, that short term volatility is kind of expressed through the forced buying and selling of those positions.

• 25:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Gotcha. So Dylan, we got one more chart for you. It's actually just a picture of Bitcoin Magazine Pro, and we should tell people to go subscribe because you do a fantastic job. And so does the whole team that you work with at Bitcoin Magazine. You guys are putting together a lot of, of research and work into this stuff, and it's educating a lot of people. So, thanks for coming on, man. This is, this was really helpful. I hope people learned a lot. And if they want to, they should go to Bitcoin Magazine Pro and sign up so they can get this stuff on a, it's daily, right? Daily basis?

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, we put out stuff most every day and then we do like kind of in-depth reports. We have free paid tiers, so check it out. We rebranded from the deep dive. Same, same content, just a, just a fresh rebrand, launched it at the conference, but yeah. Appreciate you guys having me on. Great to talk as always and uh, I will say I should probably just, I could text you this, but I will be in Europe for the next couple of weeks, so not sure if I'll be able to make the stream, but I can coordinate that with, with Paul.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  This guy.

• 26:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Hey man, we had, we had a great conversation. I plugged your, I plugged your subscription service. We brought up the Twitter, tell people to follow you and then you hit me with, see y'all later. Uh, no, we'll talk about it, man. We appreciate you coming on whenever you're available, so uh, no, no worries. We'll figure it out, but thanks Dylan. We'll talk to you soon.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  Cheers fellas. Have a nice day.

• 27:04Anthony Pompliano?

  You too.

• 27:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. I really hope you guys enjoyed this one. Make sure you subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. And if you're looking to try to transition to get a new job in the Bitcoin or crypto industry, we've got you covered. Head over to pompscryptocourse.com. We've developed a curriculum with the top teams across the industry. It's a three-week intensive training program with over 50 events packed into that three-week time period. Go to pompscryptocourse.com to learn more and I'll meet you guys for the next episode.