Tommy Lee |The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan welcomes Mötley Crüe co-founder Tommy Lee for a candid conversation about rock, reinvention, and the future of music. Tommy shares why he used AI to reimagine the artwork for Tommyland Rides Again, why Dolby Atmos has completely changed the way he thinks about making records, and why he believes streaming has crushed the "musical middle class." He also tells the incredible story of how Nikki Sixx bought back Mötley Crüe's catalog, reflects on the band's legacy, and explains why he'll never censor himself on social media—even when it comes to politics. Billy also looks back on recording with Tommy in 2013, breaks down the unmistakable groove that helped define Mötley Crüe, and the two swap stories about David Bowie, Prince, Mick Mars, John 5, the Sunset Strip, and why they believe rock music is on the verge of a major comeback. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  Was that really how it was? And these kids, these kids don't know.

• 0:35Billy Corgan?

  It's like neon lights and sleazy at the same time. Like I'm in every strip bar ever at the same, I don't know. Something about the way you play that groove, it's like that's the money.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  People, at the end of the day, I believe, want a new experience.

• 0:52Billy Corgan?

  The crew as an institution is completely its own animal. You guys have played by your own rules.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  When everybody was going right, we're going left.

• 1:01Billy Corgan?

  You're not a person who thinks a lot about consequences.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  No, no. Yeah, because I don't care.

• 1:09Billy Corgan?

  My good brother Tommy Lee, so good to see you. Lots of love.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Dude, it's so good to see you.

• 1:13Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  So good.

• 1:16Billy Corgan?

  Your life is one beautiful explosion going in about 360 degree direction. So I thought it would be more fun, and I know you like to have some fun. So I thought it'd be more fun if we just kind of just touch on some things. You're certainly worthy of a full career review, although it's not over yet. But, but it seems not to be your style. So I'm going to bend the rules a little bit and we'll just kind of like, we'll free associate a little bit.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 1:43Billy Corgan?

  All right, so let's start here. And I, and even though I know you decently well, I actually don't know where you're going to fall on this question. So the, so the question is essentially about AI. So let's start here. Do you fall on the positive side of AI or the negative side?

• 1:59Speaker 01

  I'm right in the middle.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  I don't, you know what I mean? I think.

• 2:07Billy Corgan?

  Because you love technology.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  I totally do.

• 2:10Billy Corgan?

  You like your toys.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  I'm such a geek.

• 2:11Billy Corgan?

  So there's got to be a part of you that likes the toy in the thing.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, um, oh, that's a big one because

• 2:24Speaker 01

  if, if people are using it as a tool.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  I've spoke to, you know, artists who just, for instance, on my album cover, this, this kind of hit me because I was afraid, I was like, I want to keep the original artwork. He drew it, right? But I said, I've remixed the record in Dolby Atmos and I want a 3D and also sort of reimagine the artwork.

• 2:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  And would you?

• 2:58Billy Corgan?

  Just for context, this is for your 2005 Tommy Land. Is it Tommy Land Rides Again?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Rides Again, yeah.

• 3:06Billy Corgan?

  And you've made a, sorry, just because I want people to understand it because I want them to listen.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  I got you.

• 3:10Billy Corgan?

  They've made a new version of, like a redone Dolby Atmos and.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so that's the context.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, you know, it was on a sort of, you know, with, with an artist, it's kind of a touchy situation of me wondering, is he going to be opposed to using AI to kind of 3D this? Because it's a flat drawing. It's a, it's this cool drawing with this roller coaster going in my ear and out the other end. It's kind of like a ride through my creative dark street. And it's so, so in asking him, he goes, and his answer was so quick. He goes, absolutely 100% I am down with it. Because for me, as the original artist of the piece,

• 4:01Speaker 01

  I, I love it because I use it as a creative tool. It's, it's not replacing me. It's taking something that I've done and really like 3Ding it out and making.

• 4:14Billy Corgan?

  So if you were, if you were 15 years old now, would you want to use AI to make music, you think?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  To make music?

• 4:24Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's.

• 4:26Billy Corgan?

  Because you like to hit.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that, that's weird. That I don't think I'll ever.

• 4:33Billy Corgan?

  Have you done the thing yet where you put a song in and have, have AI kick out a different version? Have you done any of that yet?

• 4:38Speaker 01

  No, not, not.

• 4:39Billy Corgan?

  Have you seen people do that? Have you seen any demonstration of that?

• 4:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 4:44Billy Corgan?

  You can literally load in like an acoustic demo. It could literally just be a demo of you acoustic guitar and vocal, and it spits out like a bro country version of your song, like, like in like 60 seconds. With guitar parts, background singing, it's, it's wild.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 5:00Billy Corgan?

  This is now, so this is 2026, we're doing this interview. So five years from now, it'll be insane what people will be able to do.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a loaded one, man. Because there's so many pluses and so many weird minuses that could. I don't know, dude. It's, but it's, but it.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  I do like the forward movement with the technology and.

• 5:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's why I kind of guessed you would be kind of in the, the gray space on it. Because, because I know you love, you, you're somebody who embraces technology. You're certainly not afraid of it.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:35Billy Corgan?

  So you've made your living in the music business. We both have. And you've certainly been the beneficiary of it, but you've also dealt with the downside of the music business. Where do you land on the music business at this point? Having seen everything that's happened because you grew up in the business where it's about records, radio stations, and then eventually MTV. And now it's on to something totally different.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Completely different, isn't it?

• 6:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  You know, I don't spend a whole lot of time kind of analyzing it. I think most, most of the time, I'm,

• 6:16Speaker 01

  I'm extremely grateful to have had this long of a career.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Because not many have.

• 6:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  You know, a lot of.

• 6:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you're in the, you're in the point 0001 percentile.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Right, so I'm usually, you know,

• 6:35Speaker 01

  I realize where everything's gone and there's just like, the part, the part about, the part about the music business is just too fucking much.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  I'm in the bit, we're in this business, we make and we do music. And when Spotify or whoever is releasing how many songs a day?

• 7:04Billy Corgan?

  Two, 200,000, I think is the.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Bro.

• 7:08Billy Corgan?

  And a lot, and pretty soon it's going to be a lot of AI.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  And that's just to me.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I'm a musician, I'm also a fan. And if I can't keep up, how is everybody keeping up? And why are we constantly dumping new content out?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  That's the, that just baffles me. How is anybody listening to all this? It's impossible.

• 7:34Billy Corgan?

  Well, the answer is they're not.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:37Billy Corgan?

  And the real, the real, it's hard to use the word victim, it's not the right word. The real, the people most hurt by the current system in 2026 are what I call the musical middle class. People who, back in the day, would have been able to make a decent living by a house. Now they can't tour, they're not getting enough streaming revenue. Spotify came up with that rule that long ago. If you get under a thousand plays, they don't pay you. Do you know about that?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Hmm, no, but.

• 8:07Billy Corgan?

  So even if you're somebody who gets 500 plays, you don't even get the, the money for the 500 plays. They just don't pay you because they don't consider it important enough. They'll host you on the platform, you could put your music up.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:18Billy Corgan?

  So that's a, that's a difficult one.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  God, it's just kind of crazy, isn't it?

• 8:25Billy Corgan?

  Talking to you reminds me of a story Nikki, your bandmate, told me once where it was kind of in those years where the crew was, was not up, but on the, on the downside of things. And you guys had a very contentious relationship with, was it Sylvia Rohn?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:42Billy Corgan?

  And, and Nikki basically approached your former label, Lectra, and somehow was able to buy your catalog for not a lot of money.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 8:52Billy Corgan?

  And that's an incredible story because imagine you have the Motley Crue catalog. Lectra owns the catalog. They, you guys probably had a crappy record deal as most bands did back then.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 9:03Billy Corgan?

  And somehow Nikki arranges, because she hates you guys so much, buys all your stuff back. Which is now probably worth 100 times or more what, what you guys paid for it.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was so excited to get rid of.

• 9:15Billy Corgan?

  Get rid of you.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  We had two records left with them. So this was her perfect, perfect way out and perfect way out for us too. We were like, of course, we'll take our stuff and.

• 9:28Billy Corgan?

  See, this is, this is where your bad behavior was rewarded.

• 9:34Billy Corgan?

  How, how you felt, you know, we've had about 20 years of pop overload. How do you, how do you look at pop, the pop landscape at the moment?

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Pop landscape, well, I.

• 9:45Billy Corgan?

  Are you a fan or you?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  I'm a fan of really good music, like, and I'm a fan.

• 9:52Billy Corgan?

  You're not a hater per se.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  No, like.

• 9:54Billy Corgan?

  You're not, because I, having spent time with you, you're not a person who talks behind the scenes on other artists. You're just not that guy.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:00Billy Corgan?

  You're more of a, I love this, I love this, I love this.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:04Billy Corgan?

  So who in the, who in the pop world are you attracted to?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  In the pop world, guys like, I mean, I love Bruno Mars. He's amazing, super funky, super cool. Is that considered pop?

• 10:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it is considered pop.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 10:24Billy Corgan?

  Back in the day, they would have called it R and B, but I don't think they distinguish that anymore.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Who else? Jeez.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Billie Eilish, I love.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Who else in that world?

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Trying to think.

• 10:44Billy Corgan?

  It's fine, but, but, but on, on the, have you noticed that somehow in this, you know, hegemony is the word, it's been this pop dominance for about fifteen, twenty years, that no rock on the charts for twenty years.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 10:57Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of a weird one, because that was never the case in any other generation. That's really just been a recent phenomenon. I think it's about to end. There are plenty, tons of indications is about to end and rock is about to have a massive kind of comeback, which I'm sure you feel or see. Are you seeing a lot of young fans when you're playing now?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  So many.

• 11:16Billy Corgan?

  Crazy, right?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, everybody, like, that's such a beautiful thing and such a great feeling that, that I get personally, because I'm like, whoa, this is transcended, this is, that.

• 11:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Our fan has his kid on his shoulders.

• 11:35Billy Corgan?

  And also getting grandkids.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  And he's going, shout, shout. And I'm like, wait, dude, you're, you're, you're fourteen, like, this is the best ever. Like, so it, to, to see it.

• 11:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Go to another generation and look out and see a ton of young kids. And with the original fans, it's just, man, it's just, it's such a confirmation of like, okay, this is gonna be, this is gonna be around for a while.

• 12:03Billy Corgan?

  Do you have an opinion why so many young people are interested again in guitar bands?

• 12:10Billy Corgan?

  Is it as simple as just the Sound of Rebellion or?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  I, I guess, man, um.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  I, I, what, what I do notice is things are getting a lot heavier, like, in the guitar world, like, a lot of, so, a lot of the newer stuff is like, you know, extremely detuned and super, super lush and heavy.

• 12:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Everybody's kind of taking that guitar thing.

• 12:43Billy Corgan?

  Again, technology, that's part of it, right? The ability to record guitar in this new way and.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's, you know, there's plugins now that simulate the, what is it, the seven string detuned.

• 12:58Billy Corgan?

  Crazy, right?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  That just, and you're just like, oh my God, this sounds insane.

• 13:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  You're, you're the guitar guy.

• 13:11Billy Corgan?

  Well, you know, you know where that, we know where that goes. Invariably, it's a bunch of people staring at a Marshall stack going, how many more mics can we put on this? I know, I know you've lived it.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:22Billy Corgan?

  Okay, let me hit you with the date here, little, little controversy. January twenty eight, twenty fourteen, in quotations, cessation of touring.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:33Billy Corgan?

  That's where you gentlemen signed in blood. We will never tour again or never, at the endless, so, let's have fun with it, because obviously you've continued touring.

• 13:47Billy Corgan?

  Did you, did you, did you, when you sign the contracts in blood, even if it was your blood, it doesn't matter, but did you believe that really was the end?

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Yes, we did. And we, we, we did, but we wanted everybody else to, to, to, to believe that too. And, and realize that, you know, the last thing we wanted was, um, was people to go like, oh, it's, you know, kiss in their final, final, final, final, right? Like, we, we, we were really, um, uh, we were, we wanted that to be crystal clear that this was, we were, we're done.

• 14:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  We're done. And, and we were.

• 14:43Billy Corgan?

  But.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  For a while.

• 14:46Billy Corgan?

  Well, what's so funny, when you guys came back, I thought, well, this is the most Motley Crue thing ever.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  And Motley, it's definitely a Motley move.

• 14:53Billy Corgan?

  It's like.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Psych.

• 14:54Billy Corgan?

  Well, we, well, yeah, exactly. We, we signed in blood, we can't come back. It's like, yeah, but we're Motley Crue, of course we can come back.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  We lied, no.

• 15:02Billy Corgan?

  Hundred and fifty-eight shows between twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen. I saw two of those shows.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Dude, that tour was like two.

• 15:14Billy Corgan?

  It was a big tour.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it seemed like it was forever. It was one of those when you come home and you're like, oh.

• 15:22Billy Corgan?

  But I have to ask, because I think I know the answer, but whose idea was the signing in blood?

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Oh, Nicky's? Of course you know the answer.

• 15:29Billy Corgan?

  It's like Ring of Bell.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:32Billy Corgan?

  If there, if there ever was a Nicky Six idea.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because that makes it official. If it's in blood, it's official, right?

• 15:39Billy Corgan?

  This is my, this is the selfish part of, of our conversation. So in twenty thirteen, which just before you went out on that endless tour, you and I worked together on my album, Monuments to an Elegy. Thank you for that.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, which was, what an experience.

• 15:52Billy Corgan?

  You may not know, but it was a really downtime in my, my personal and musical life. So working with you was really like, it lifted my spirits. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for being part of that.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  And I want to thank you, because you, and I tell people this story all the time.

• 16:06Billy Corgan?

  Please tell me.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  It was like, it was such an experience, recording with you, because you have certain ways that you do things, and I have certain ways I do things. And your, you know, uh, your, your passion for that one take is, and the, the, no use of Pro Tools editing and like, I, I want that vibe.

• 16:38Billy Corgan?

  Yes, it's, it's, it's, it's hard to understand, because on, on the, on the surface of it, emotion and drumming shouldn't really translate. But if you can get that one take, it does.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  It does, it does. And you made me realize that.

• 16:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And you're, you're an incredible drummer, and you're an incredible pocket drummer. And the best way I can explain it, having worked with you intimately on music, is when you find the Tommy Lee groove, whatever that is, it is like, I feel like I'm standing on the Sunset Strip eighty-four. It's both, it's like neon lights and, and sleazy at the same time. Like, I'm in every strip bar ever at the same, I don't know, something about the way you play that groove, it's like, that's the money. That's the thing that sold a zillion records, that's the groove. And only you play it that way.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  That's, that's cool.

• 17:33Billy Corgan?

  So understand the, the, the pressure isn't inadequacy, it's greatness.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Oh, that's cool, man.

• 17:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  That's cool. And, yeah, like I was saying, I, I tell people this all the time, like,

• 17:46Speaker 01

  it was incredibly challenging for me, because of.

• 17:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, a lot of weird timing there.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  And seven, nine, and then, you know, the time signature changes and trying.

• 17:56Billy Corgan?

  Too much prog, I know, I'm sorry for that.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Which is awesome, because it was challenging for me, you know, I, I needed that.

• 18:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, my favorite, uh, my favorite story from us working together at your, at your old house was, I think I left the room and you, you turned to the engineer and said, why does he need so many takes?

• 18:14Billy Corgan?

  The, the image of you holding your sticks up like, bro, you need so many takes. But thank you again for that. I will say, as, because I think this would be of interest to your fans, um, the physics of the drums, by and large, are, you're not supposed to drive the stick into the drum, because the drum can't vibrate.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:36Billy Corgan?

  So proper drumming is, you hit it, you come off it, and then drum goes.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  And it doesn't sting.

• 18:42Billy Corgan?

  Like, like you drive that stick through the head, you hit harder than any drummer I've ever seen, close. But somehow it sounds amazing. It's, physically, it shouldn't work.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it shouldn't, because the microphone can only handle so much, and there is so much.

• 18:59Billy Corgan?

  All of it. But somehow with you, it works. Is, is that something that you, that just came naturally to you, wasn't something you thought of? Or did you like the way the drums sounded when you hit them like that?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what? It's a, it's an ear thing for me. I'm like, oh, this sounds nice. Uh, this doesn't sound nice, because this is overdriving certain things. Um, so, yeah, for, for me, it's like a sound thing, like, oh, this sounds really cool. This doesn't sound cool. It's kind of my, my ears is my reference for how it sounds and feels.

• 19:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's almost like, uh, I don't know, it's not the best analogy, but it's almost like how certain pitchers that are long limbed have a certain whip to their pitches.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 19:38Billy Corgan?

  You, you kind of whip when you play.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  The long arms.

• 19:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but it's not, it's not just you drive down, it's almost like you kind of, I don't even know how to explain it. It's like a whip motion. The sound that you get off the kit is unlike anything I've ever heard, because it shouldn't sound like that.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 19:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's, I know it's nerd stuff, but.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Thank you, but no, it's cool.

• 20:00Billy Corgan?

  That's what we do here. So let's talk a little bit more about the Tommy Land Rides again. Um, I love the idea that you've gone back to a, a former project and sort of redone it. Was it, was part of it, you wanted to hear an Atmos? Was it a reunion, uh, an anniversary? What was the impetus for doing, wanting to do it?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  A couple, a couple of reasons. One, it being a twenty, twenty year anniversary.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  And I had built a Dolby Atmos studio in my, my new house.

• 20:28Billy Corgan?

  How many, how many speakers do you need for an Atmos?

• 20:31Speaker 01

  There is.

• 20:32Billy Corgan?

  Is it five or is it more?

• 20:33Speaker 01

  No, it's, it's seven.

• 20:37Billy Corgan?

  If Atmos, for people don't know, is basically like 3D mixing technology, right? Is it?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Pretty much.

• 20:44Billy Corgan?

  What we would have called surround sound years ago, but it's the new version of surround.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  There you go. Instead of, instead of it, it, uh, like a surround sound being, you know, front and rear.

• 20:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Where you're like, oh, there are sides, there's above you.

• 21:00Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that, okay.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  There are rear sides, um, front sides, there's, you're literally engulfed in, in sound and, um.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Having heard that, um, I went to PMC has a studio here in town and I went to their, their Atmos room and I heard it and I was like, I have never heard anything like this in my life. I am not listening to music. I am in the music.

• 21:35Billy Corgan?

  Ah, okay.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  And I was just so inspired. So I built that in my house and then after hearing that and being inspired by that and actually with it and making it work, I was like, I gotta, I gotta remix some stuff because this, this, it, it needs this. It's begging for this. This is how it should have always sounded. So, and one of the things, and you'll, you'll, you'll appreciate this being a singer. I, one of the songs on the record really sonically is just unbelievable. It's, it's called Hello Again. And I opened the record with it, like just basically saying hello again

• 22:16Speaker 01

  to everybody who's coming back to listen to the record, right? But really, I wrote that song about my father dying and hello again being, you know, what, what would I say to my father again, one day when I see?

• 22:31Billy Corgan?

  This is a new song or a song from the original record?

• 22:33Speaker 01

  It's a song from the original record.

• 22:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  But what inspired me was, I was like, God, how, how cool would it be?

• 22:44Speaker 01

  If the, the vocal was coming from up above?

• 22:48Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  And it gave me goosebumps. So I put the vocal upstairs. So it sounds like you're singing from some other universe and you're sitting there and you're like, wait, the vocal? And it, it's just insane. You're like, and I, you can, you can place, let's say your vocal and you're doing some sort of a whispery kind of a vocal. I can put that right behind your ear.

• 23:16Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  And you're like,

• 23:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And so it's just inspired me now. Like I want to actually, I want to make a new record that's completely recorded in and sort of pre-thought, like how, let's, let's kind of put more thought in how it's gonna sound before even, while writing it.

• 23:37Billy Corgan?

  But how do you deal, cause you know, traditionally rock is mixed, I know it's not necessarily a rock record, but you know, rock type music is, is mixed in a compressed kind of constructed way.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:48Billy Corgan?

  How do you deal with the sort of the separation? How do you, how do you, do you rationalize it as, I enjoy it because it's like being in the middle of the band working? Or how do you, what's your mental image?

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Like of, of like perception of where you're at.

• 24:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  It, it's, it's not crazy different to where you feel like, oh, where am I? It still has that sense of most of the, most of the power is really coming from the left and right.

• 24:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  To your ears. But there's this extra spatial wideness and behind you and above you that,

• 24:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  That that's, that's sort of the, the bonus, I guess. But you, the, the, the, most of the power is really still coming from your left and right.

• 24:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, one thing you're, one thing you're triggering in my mind is, um, help me take it as a compliment, but you know, you're kind of a ADD type of personality. You like a lot of stimulation in your environment. It's just the way you are. But in a, in a way, you know, a lot of people struggle these days with how is music gonna compete against the phone, against the dopamine hit? And maybe, maybe that type of approach is actually a way to get music back up to speed where, especially for young people, it sort of works more with the way their brains are working.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  It, yes. And, and I'm also skeptical, you know, like, like not everybody has Dolby Atmos.

• 25:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Right? Like, you know, as a normal fan.

• 25:14Billy Corgan?

  They have technology now where it makes sense in the headphones, right?

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. And once I found out that, oh, there's a load of major car manufacturers that when you buy a, a new car, stock, it comes with Dolby Atmos. Everybody from Mercedes to Cadillac to, uh, there, there's a bunch of manufacturers, a bunch of electric vehicles. I think Tesla, uh, Rivian, uh, a, a significant amount of people are, are offering Dolby Atmos in the car factory.

• 25:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but it's.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  And I was like, ah, here we go. It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna move. People, people, at the end of the day, I believe, want a new experience in when they listen to music. You know, everybody's heard stereo for ever.

• 26:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, for 70 years, no, 70 years, right?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, you know, at, at the, at the end of the day, all this is entertainment, you know?

• 26:22Billy Corgan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Right? So, so, so, so it's, it's, I feel like it's our job to give the listener,

• 26:30Billy Corgan?

  um, Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  A, a, a fresh new experience or something that they can't, you can't get anywhere else or something, something new, something, anything.

• 26:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Different.

• 26:41Billy Corgan?

  And shout out to PMC. I use PMC as well.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Great. That good boy. Good boy.

• 26:45Billy Corgan?

  Great speech.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are.

• 26:47Billy Corgan?

  See, I got you on that nerd point.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:50Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Shout out to PMC.

• 26:54Billy Corgan?

  Uh, is it true you started playing on the Sunset Strip late seventies? Is that, is that accurate?

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:01Billy Corgan?

  You would have been like, what, 17, 18 years?

• 27:02Speaker 01

  I was 17. I remember we had to lie to, um, about my age to get to, at to play.

• 27:09Billy Corgan?

  Somebody, my first gig, same.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  He's not old now.

• 27:11Billy Corgan?

  Had a lie, same.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Really? I'm not.

• 27:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right? I literally, I literally hid behind the lead singer so no one, no one could see my face.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Who's that kid?

• 27:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, totally. But, uh, obviously there's the famed Sunset Strip, which you guys are in exec, exec, exec, what's that word? Inexorably, inexorably linked to.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 27:33Billy Corgan?

  All right. That's my big word of the day.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  And mine too. I'm just learning it.

• 27:36Billy Corgan?

  Inexorably.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  What does it, what does it mean?

• 27:39Billy Corgan?

  I, I, I, it either means, uh, I think it's a fancy word for saying you're linked to like you're, you can't think of the Sunset Strip without thinking about Molly Crew. That would be the fancy way to say it.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Ah, gotcha.

• 27:51Billy Corgan?

  Inex, inexorably.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Inexorably.

• 27:54Billy Corgan?

  But, uh, before, before it really kicks in, uh, late seventies, early eighties, before it becomes the stuff of movies and mini-series, um, what was your, what was your impression then of that, of that, of that musical scene? Ben Halen was obviously the king of that time, but

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:11Billy Corgan?

  What was your impression?

• 28:14Speaker 01

  God, dude, that's, when, when you're that age, I don't, I mean, now my impression is different, but if you're asking me what my impression was then, then, then, um,

• 28:35Speaker 01

  then, okay, this, this will bring it all home. You're, I, I remember, this is how naive, um, I was. I remember calling my parents going, oh my God, you guys, we sold out the whiskey Friday, Saturday and Sunday, three nights in a row. I had thought, we made, we, we made it.

• 29:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Little did I know, we hadn't done.

• 29:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Literally.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Hollywood, three sold out nights, and I'm thinking, we made it.

• 29:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Little did I, I didn't know, I didn't know, right? So, um, it's pretty wild to have sat there and thought, whoa, this is it. We made it.

• 29:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  You know?

• 29:27Billy Corgan?

  But in a, but in a way you had because, because there was nothing comparable in the rest of America for what that, that scene was becoming.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:37Billy Corgan?

  There was nothing like that in Chicago. There was in the, back in the day when I, when I was a kid, my dad would always talk about, um, uh, there was an area down in the city of, why can't I think of the area? Old Town or something. It was while the clubs were.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 29:51Billy Corgan?

  Um, but, but by the time I was a musician, that was all gone.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 29:57Billy Corgan?

  You know, I mean, there was no like centralized place where people went to go hang out.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Oh, gotcha.

• 30:02Billy Corgan?

  You know, where in your, in your time, you know,

• 30:05Speaker 01

  That was the hang.

• 30:07Billy Corgan?

  Piled, even if they weren't going to a gig, they would just walk the strip and.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Just hanging out everywhere. Yep.

• 30:14Billy Corgan?

  What was the, uh, you know, the, the tales of Nicki not being able to play and, and people doubting Nick, that Nicki could offer something and you saw something in Nicki and that whole thing. But what was the, what was the first vision for the crew? Was it like, we're gonna be, cause I always got the sense Nicki wanted you guys to be a glam band. Is that accurate? Like, did he, did he have, did he, did he say, I want to be this type of band? Was there something that was on the table?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  He didn't say he wanted to be any sort of type. It's like, he had left his band London, which was full of kind of glammy, you know, uh, rock poppy stuff.

• 30:53Billy Corgan?

  Kind of like a cute boy band, right?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, um, I, I, I just remember he had like a handful of some songs and I had just met him and it was this little house in Hollywood and there was no drums over there. He just had an acoustic guitar and I'm playing drums on the coffee table and we just started vibing and that, that's when, um, we were like, you know, that's when we started to,

• 31:27Speaker 01

  I guess, trying to figure out what, what it was, what, what, what are we doing? So we're like, we, we found a guitar player and we, you know, we found Mick and then we need, then we needed a singer.

• 31:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Um, and I was like, I, I go to, I went to school with, with this kid, this dude. All the girls love him.

• 31:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  And he plays backyard parties and sings incredible Cheap Trick and like, uh, uh, Ramones and like to all these like, he, he was in a, like probably the best cover band.

• 32:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Called Rock Candy at the time. And I was, so I took Nicki and Mick to go see him play at some backyard kegger party. And we were just like, that's our guy. Like,

• 32:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  So we had to steal him out of there. Anyway, long story, but we, it sort of got. Built, you know, piece by piece. Um, you know, we got Mick and then like, okay, now there's this defining sound.

• 32:30Billy Corgan?

  Was there a musical conversation or was it just like some of the parts you think?

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, some of the parts for sure.

• 32:36Billy Corgan?

  You're such a unique band. You know, I mean, to this day, I still think you're one of the most unique bands. I mean, people normally lump you into the, into the hard rock thing, which makes sense. But at the end of the day, the real roots of the crew are, are not, they're not necessarily just hard rock.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:53Billy Corgan?

  There's lots of things there that nobody would have put together.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:57Billy Corgan?

  You guys put together, so.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Lot of different influences all somehow.

• 33:01Billy Corgan?

  And somehow it worked.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Works, right?

• 33:04Billy Corgan?

  But it's, it's nothing you guys talked about.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  No, it's weird. It just, it just was.

• 33:10Billy Corgan?

  That's interesting, yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Um, and there's that one defining thing. It's like, you have a certain sound and when you sing and you, and it's so identifiable. You can hear miles away like, oh, that's Billy.

• 33:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  And Vince has that. There's not a lot, there's so many singers out there that could be anybody.

• 33:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  And, and, and maybe let's even take it wider bands. You're like, I don't know who that is. Could, could be thirty.

• 33:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  These bands, but when you hear you sing, you know it's you. And then when you hear Vince sing, it's undeniable. You're like, that's Molly.

• 33:56Billy Corgan?

  Me.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  The, the voice of.

• 33:58Billy Corgan?

  I haven't seen you for a while, say, but we, we got a fourteen month old baby. Juno and.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:03Billy Corgan?

  And the other day, uh, my, my song was playing on the radio and the baby pointed at the radio and said, daddy.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  No way. Woo.

• 34:13Billy Corgan?

  I was like, my kid.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Daddy, that's.

• 34:19Billy Corgan?

  I love, I love Jimmy Chamberlain. Jimmy, Jimmy Chamberlain from the Pumpkins loves Vince's voice and I do too, but, but he has the best description of Vince's voice.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 34:30Billy Corgan?

  Feline.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  No way. That's the best.

• 34:34Billy Corgan?

  Feline.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Feline, wow.

• 34:37Billy Corgan?

  As only Jimmy Chamberlain could put it. Um, it's like, it shouldn't work, but it does.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. It, it's a weird, it's a weird thing.

• 34:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, like imagine, I mean, obviously you've had different singers, but John Carabi, great singer, but, but.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:53Billy Corgan?

  Something about Vince's voice made it more alternative or more something or more like even Cheap Trick. It gave it a, an alternative feeling.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Totally like, like a John Carabi.

• 35:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Great voice, but could be so similar to so many others.

• 35:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Steven Tyler to this, to that.

• 35:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Where Vince, just, he sounds like Vince.

• 35:16Billy Corgan?

  Only Vince sounds like Vince.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

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• 36:28Speaker 04

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• 36:57Billy Corgan?

  The crew as an institution is completely its own animal. You guys have played by your own rules. You're one, Jimmy Chamberlain and I sometimes find ourselves talking about you and somehow you guys made all the things that you shouldn't do work and. But, but from, from, from somebody who's been in the game for a long time, what's another, what's another artist? It can be any era, but what's another artist that you look up and say, wow, I really admire the way they went about the business of music? Not just that you admire them creatively, but you like the way they sort of went at it because you know the game.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Yes. You know, the business, I have a, a small handful of ones that I completely admire about musically and how the, the, the evolution of their career.

• 37:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm curious about.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  To me, it's, and, and I, to me, um, David Bowie and Prince are at the, at the top of my list for several reasons.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  And we, we don't have those anymore. Like there's no mystery to anybody or anything anymore with social media and seeing what everybody's having for breakfast and like, Prince would never, he would barely do interviews. And so it, he always left you wondering, wanting to know more about him, right? And he just wouldn't, wouldn't really let you in or just enough, you know? And David Bowie, from record to record, would completely change the way he looked.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Even musical styles would, you know, always like a chameleon, just always. That I respect and admire, like guys like that, that have just always sort of, I don't know, kept it kind of, kind of underground, but above ground and changing things up and, and not doing the same thing over and over and over. And that's inspired us to, and you can see it in Motley where we'll, we'll change the logo, we'll change the way we look. And from record to record, it was always like.

• 39:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Whoa dude, they're going through this phase, they're, they're doing this, they're doing that. And I think, I, I really believe that there's, some of that is, is to be.

• 39:38Billy Corgan?

  So, so speaking of that, cause I was gonna ask about this. I was always curious, I feel like I talked to you about it privately once, but obviously you're in public here, but it was, it was, you did Shout at the Devil, huge record, huge, like, you know, it was like the teen anthem record of that year, whatever that year was. But then Theater of Pain seemed to be a curious follow-up to a lot of fans at the time. Kind of like, almost like a glammy pivot. You guys changed your look.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:06Billy Corgan?

  Were you, were you on, excuse, were you on board with that, that, that change at the time?

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was on board at the time.

• 40:15Billy Corgan?

  I'm not saying it was a failure, you know what I mean? It was a successful record.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Home Sweet Home was massive for us.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  At the time, it just seemed like, and like a, a, a natural kind of, you know, flip the switch a little bit.

• 40:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Now, when I look back, I don't know if that was necessary to go sort of that.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  That's pretty drastic going from like.

• 40:48Billy Corgan?

  Where you went from the devil to.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  From Satan to, you know, like a very colorful.

• 40:54Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  And ballads and we were just, I don't know, man, we were just.

• 41:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's hard when in a band, cause you're moving so fast, those decisions. It's not like you sit around and talk about them for eight days. They just kind of happen and then you kind of live with them. Is that, is that accurate?

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 41:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:14Billy Corgan?

  Looking back, Shout at the Devil to me is such an interesting record, cause I really liked it at the time, I had it at the time, but I went back and listened to it again, maybe like a couple of years ago. And I, I just think it's such an amazing record.

• 41:27Billy Corgan?

  What's your perception of that record looking back now?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  I, I, I love that record. And for me, that was a record that.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  We're working with uh Tom Werman.

• 41:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, great producer.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Good, really cool producer. He had done Cheap Trick and we were fans of like, we were like, oh man, we're with, we're with a guy who can, you can help us pull this off. And we then that's when it started getting into technology with with with samples and, you know, drum samples and sequencers and all this stuff. Although it's not very, it's not very audible there, but it is in the background. We started reinforcing drums and doing some things that I was personally into and Tom got into and we all just kind of just started building this thing, but I love that record.

• 42:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, the way I feel about that record is, is, and I don't mean it as a diss because I love it. It's almost like, it seems like the same song kind of in variations.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, right. It's got a like, well, here's another version of the same song, but it's really good.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:47Billy Corgan?

  Like a lot of great songs and it's like, it's like, it's like a really cool movie. I don't want to end. It takes you into a particular atmosphere. The sound of mixed guitar, I think in particular, me as a guitar player, just something about the whole thing. The parts, the way you guys are locked in, the sound of Vince's voice, all of it.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:07Billy Corgan?

  And it's like, it's really one of those records. I don't want it to end. I wish there was like 400 more of the same song.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  That's so wrong. Wow. That's cool, man.

• 43:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Cause at the time, you know, I was, you know, it's like when the record came out, I think it was about 17 and you know, you see the pentagram, you're like, okay, I'm down with that. That's cool. You guys are going for it.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  This is dark.

• 43:27Billy Corgan?

  Cause I was listening from the first EP. I think I told you this a long time ago, but I, there was some hot girl who lived on my friend's block. She had a, let's just say she was endowed in a particular way.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:38Billy Corgan?

  And she's the first time I ever heard the name Motley Crue because she was wearing a shirt. So being a teen boy, you look at her natural assets and then it says Motley Crue.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:49Billy Corgan?

  That was my first connection.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Embossed, if you will.

• 43:52Billy Corgan?

  So because of that, I end up hearing the first EP because she was a fan. And um, so when, when Shot of the Devil came out, I was like, okay, I'm ready for it. Like, give it to me. And those are pentagrams in the fire. Okay, here we go. Great videos. So, but at the time it was like, I kind of thought like, okay, that's cool. You're kind of doing this almost like comic booky hail Satan stuff, you know what I mean? Cause I was already listening to Merciful Fate, you know what I mean? So,

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:18Billy Corgan?

  You know, it was, it was, it was the kinder, gentler Satan with the crew, but looking back now, I just think the record is such a supreme statement.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  That's so cool, man. I, I remember um that particular, you know, album cover that the gatefold uh and I remember a bunch of, you know, and I've been told by a bunch of fans that they're like, oh, bro, I, I had to smuggle that record into my bedroom to play it because the parents would see the cover and be like, uh-uh.

• 44:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  No. And so a lot of

• 45:00Billy Corgan?

  But that's, that's, that's honey to a, to a team.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Right, right? Yeah. I just found that to be really cool. Like dude's like, no, man, I could not let my parents see this.

• 45:12Billy Corgan?

  So you've come and gone, you know, with the band a few times. So I guess the question I'm interested in is how, how do you feel? How, how do you feel? But it's like, because I've been there in, in communion, like making peace with the band. Like is like what I would say sometimes to people is like,

• 45:34Billy Corgan?

  even if I'm not in my band, I'm in my band. Does that make sense to you?

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 45:39Billy Corgan?

  Your band is always going to be your band. There's never really going to be another band. There might be, there might be another band. But there's only going to be one band.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:48Billy Corgan?

  And it's those lunatics that we both ended up in relationship with.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:53Billy Corgan?

  So how

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Your fans aren't having it any other way. It's this or nothing.

• 45:56Billy Corgan?

  There's that too, but I think it's actually the sweeter thing that I found, I don't know if you found it, but the sweeter thing I found is there's just something, sometimes looking across the stage at James and Jimmy and it's like, wow. Thirty seven, thirty eight years in, in our case, like that's a lot of miles. That's a lot of up, down, come back around. Something sort of sweet about it. It's like, wow, we're still here and there's still people listening to us knuckleheads.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Isn't that crazy?

• 46:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So how, how have you found making peace? Is that something that came easy to you? Is that something that just took time or?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Something that definitely took time, you know, like, I don't think, like you have

• 46:41Speaker 01

  how do I explain this? Um, I don't think, yeah, that took some, some time and

• 46:50Speaker 01

  I think that can, that came from like you, you're saying, you know, seeing Jimmy and stuff and going like, God, I'm still doing this. It's, and you didn't really notice that until then. And the same, same, same for, for us.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Just, you know,

• 47:14Speaker 01

  knowing that there's only four guys that do this. And um, and I'm so grateful that this, this, this combination of people

• 47:31Speaker 01

  has like stood the test of time and this and that. And like, then you begin to have this, you know, this other respect for like, wow, man, you know, we did this together and it really couldn't have been done without these four guys, you know?

• 47:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It's powerful.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  It's super powerful.

• 47:58Billy Corgan?

  Humbling on a level that's almost hard to articulate for me.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm stumbling on my words here.

• 48:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, because it's, it's, it makes no sense.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Makes no sense.

• 48:08Billy Corgan?

  Darcy from The Pumpkins used to say, being in a band is being married to three people you don't like.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Ah, that's a good one.

• 48:15Billy Corgan?

  But they're your people.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:18Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:19Billy Corgan?

  They're your people.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:20Billy Corgan?

  It's, it's the way God chose it for whatever crazy reason. And obviously the public sees, in many ways, the public sees more in you than you see in yourselves, which is weird. Cause young bands are full of, you know, swagger and all that, you know, it's part of the game. But, but, but, but you kind of realize they actually saw more in you than you even saw in yourself.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Interesting. Interesting. Yes.

• 48:43Billy Corgan?

  We don't need to go into the, to the Mick lawsuit, but I, at the time we're taping this, that's finally been resolved. So

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:51Billy Corgan?

  I guess what I'm after is, you know, Mick is to me an incredible guitar player. I, I, I've always loved the way he plays. He's such a cool guitar player.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:02Billy Corgan?

  I mean, he's a great guitar player on a technical level. I don't think everyone appreciates how good a guitar player Mick is. He's such a cool guitar player. Like nobody plays like Mick. There's only one guy on the planet that plays like Mick and it's Nick Mars.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:15Billy Corgan?

  So I guess it's, I guess what I would say is now that you guys are sort of past this, this kerfuffle, maybe just a chance to say something positive about your, your, whether it's musical or personal about Mick, because I, I know, I know you're not a, you're a lover, not a hater, you know?

• 49:31Speaker 01

  One hundred percent. And, and for me, that, this, that whole thing was awkward and really hurtful um to what, to the point where people are saying, you know, untrue things and kind of doing that. And I was like, God, this sucks. I'm, I'm not into that kind of stuff, you know, it's like, why can't we just all?

• 49:58Speaker 01

  You go do your thing, we'll go do ours. It's all cool.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  That part of it sucked. I guess, you know, that's like a divorce or whatever. It sucks in any format.

• 50:11Billy Corgan?

  You've had a few, so.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so, um, but you, um, just to echo what you're saying, I mean, there is only one Mick and, and um, he's an insane player and it saddens me just on a personal level for him that, you know, this insane, you know, bone disease or spine disease slowly uh, you know, started, you know, dementing his shape. And he's started getting locked into being hunched over. You know, good, good thing it was forward instead of backwards. At least you're looking at the guitar neck, right?

• 50:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, even on, even on the farewell tours of twenty fourteen, twenty five, fifteen.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:01Billy Corgan?

  I mean, there he was. I mean, he's

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:05Billy Corgan?

  He, he, he went through it.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  A lot of pain and watching him struggle. And then all of a sudden, um, you know, it, I think it takes a toll on, and, and maybe his age too, you kind of mix all that in. He started to, he, you know, he came to us saying like, I don't, I don't, I don't want to do this anymore. I, I, I can't.

• 51:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, it must be hard because when you're a prideful and great musician, anything that diminishes your ability to play your instrument, just that alone psychologically, that's got to be tough.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, super tough.

• 51:43Billy Corgan?

  And by the way, you're, the whole world's watching. You're not playing to 50 people in a club. You're paying to 25,000 people in an outdoor venue on a beautiful summer night.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. You know,

• 51:58Speaker 01

  I always try to put my silicon, you know, in Mick's shoes and um, you know, I got nothing but love for that guy. Nothing but love. I just wish it didn't get so. You know, and that's just, unfortunately, that's just the way things go when people are threatened or hurt, or, you know, they, they fight back.

• 52:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  You know?

• 52:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but God bless.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  But yeah, um, but it's all good, you know?

• 52:29Billy Corgan?

  It's the crew, man. It's never gonna be a straight line.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 52:34Billy Corgan?

  Ever.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  And, and, and while we're on the, on the guitar.

• 52:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  World subject, I also, in the same breath, um, I have to give props to John Five because him coming, coming in was the exact shot of adrenaline and life and it, energy and fire.

• 53:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  That we were missing because it was really becoming a struggle. Like, we'd go to, I'd be counting off LiveWire and Mick would start Wildside. Like, he started to not know, you know, he started to not know.

• 53:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I, I saw one of those. When I saw you guys live, I saw one of those moments where it's like, something happened where.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Train wreck.

• 53:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and, and.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, what do you do?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  I've had to stop songs, just stop songs. Like, dude, we gotta restart this because he's playing the wrong song and he doesn't know it.

• 53:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  It's like, oh my God. So, anyway.

• 53:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  But, and, so, so John come, and John, John, you know, like yourself, has been a fan for a long time. He knows all the music inside and out, loves Mick, and.

• 53:57Billy Corgan?

  This is just a beautiful human being, John.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  To me, dude.

• 54:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  I don't give a shit how talented you are. If you're in it, I, I don't have much respect for that. If you're talented and you're a sweetheart.

• 54:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  You're, you're, you're my favorite person.

• 54:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's, uh, I, I root for a guy like John. You know, I mean, I root for a guy like John. You know, he's.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:22Billy Corgan?

  His heart's in the right place and, uh, he loves music and he certainly loves playing the guitar and it's like.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. He, he lives with it.

• 54:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  I, I don't think I've seen him with a, not one on his backpack.

• 54:36Billy Corgan?

  He puts me to shame on the, on the rehearsing.

• 54:40Billy Corgan?

  So, our, our good buddy Neil Strauss wrote the, uh, the Dirt.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:46Billy Corgan?

  In a weird kind of way, I mean, do you, it seemed like it kind of revived interest in the band's story. Is that a fair way to put it, or? The, the Dirt book, like, the, the book. Did you feel it kind of revived people's interest in your guys' story, or? It seemed to do something, but I'm, I'm asking you.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:07Billy Corgan?

  It was an unusual, put it this way, if you're being crass marketing, you know, it's an unusual thing to tell all these stories.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I just, I, yeah, it, it is, it is weird. We certainly have a lot of Dirt and I think, you know, from, from the title to Neil, who's a, a, a great writer, I liked his approach at the time wasn't, was really cool because, um, he did, he would have a bunch of sit downs with each guy separately, not with the band. And what happened doing it that way is literally like, I'd be reading something that Vince said and I was like, I forgot about that. And so we all sort of.

• 55:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Reminded each other of things that we had forgotten or that were extremely blurry.

• 56:05Billy Corgan?

  Well, what was the famous line? Keith Richards has forgotten more than you'll ever do or something? You guys are in the general neighborhood there.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. So, so that was cool. And that, um, that was cool that we sort of each reminded each other of how insane it actually was.

• 56:25Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  And then the, of course, the inspired the, the movie and then to visually kind of put that together and see it. Um, that's where a lot of new, young fans came about. I'd answered hundreds of emails going like, was that really how it was? And these kids, these kids don't know. They have no idea.

• 56:50Billy Corgan?

  I see, I see.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Like, this kid's seventeen going like, is that really how it was?

• 56:56Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  And, and, cause, and they'll never, ever experience that time. Never. And so their, their curiosity, they're, they're on board because they're like.

• 57:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Man, these guys, like, what?

• 57:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, well.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  They're still alive?

• 57:13Billy Corgan?

  The first time I ever met you was ninety-two. You came to see us, uh, was Chili Peppers, Pumpkins, Pearl Jam gig at Roseland.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:21Billy Corgan?

  And, uh, somebody comes up to me on stage, he goes, Tommy Lee's over there. You know, it's like, you had the, you had the big hair. And, uh, uh, but you know, when we first got in the biz, you know, early nineties, well, now you have access to all the stories. And this is pre-internet. So who did we hear about? The crew, Ozzy and G N R.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 57:45Billy Corgan?

  In terms of the, the rock stories.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:48Billy Corgan?

  So I heard them back in the day. And I'm here to tell you, they're true.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  So, so wild, man.

• 57:55Billy Corgan?

  Were you happy with the way the, the, the movie turned out?

• 57:59Speaker 01

  One hundred percent. I, I still can't believe they smashed.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  That, they smashed, what? That book is based on what, twenty years? Twenty, twenty years or so? Into an hour and a half?

• 58:19Billy Corgan?

  See, my argument is it should have been a mini-series.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Same here and, um.

• 58:24Billy Corgan?

  That is a mini-series?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 58:27Billy Corgan?

  Could have been one of the greatest mini-series of all time.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  I know. God, we've messed up.

• 58:32Billy Corgan?

  You know, with all the classic, I think you mess up, it, it certainly helped the band, but all the classic, you know, like the cliffhanger at the end of the episode.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:40Billy Corgan?

  Will Tommy be able to pay the rent? Tune in next week.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Oh, man. That would have been really cool.

• 58:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Actually.

• 58:51Billy Corgan?

  Saints of Los Angeles, two thousand eight. That's the last Motley Crue record of original material, like an album, an actual album.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, full record.

• 59:01Billy Corgan?

  So that's almost twenty years, sort of with eighteen. So why no, why no new albums?

• 59:06Speaker 01

  We.

• 59:09Billy Corgan?

  Is, is Nicki lost in Montana? I mean, what's going on?

• 59:16Billy Corgan?

  All I see, uh, cause I follow Nicki on social media. All I see is a lot of mountains.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:21Billy Corgan?

  Horses.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's in Wyoming.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, he, it's sort of a, a, a love and hate thing. Like, he also has a place out here. So when it gets cold and shit there, he's out. Yeah, so, um, I guess it's a, you know, I mean, and he does like the outdoors, but, um, uh, what was I gonna say? Oh, new music.

• 59:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  We did record a couple, uh, new songs, uh, Dogs of War, and I think we did a, a Beastie Boys cover.

• 59:59Billy Corgan?

  This is, this is a tough, why new, new albums?

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, new album.

• 1:00:02Billy Corgan?

  You know, the Rolling Stones have a new album coming out. Did you know that?

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  I saw something about that and my buddy, uh, Andrew Watts, I think is, is.

• 1:00:11Billy Corgan?

  I think Andrew Watts producing everyone at this point.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  I know. I, I don't, that, that's so, that's so wild.

• 1:00:20Billy Corgan?

  But I, but I, I, cause I, cause I, I'm in a similar argument with my band about making new music, but.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm curious to hear yours.

• 1:00:28Billy Corgan?

  I, I think rock is about to have a massive comeback and I think albums are essential to meeting the moment.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:00:37Billy Corgan?

  Young people in particular, and we talked about this already, young people are coming to see us play. They deserve music for their time.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Billy Corgan?

  The old, what, sorry to interrupt you. The old way of thinking is, well, play the hits, look at your numbers, that's what people are listening to. I think that's missing the point. If you're twenty years old and you, you're a Motley Crue fan, you deserve music for your time.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Dude, one hundred percent, dude, one hundred percent. I, um, I, I have this thing, I, you're only as good.

• 1:01:13Billy Corgan?

  And you like to be in the studio. It's not like you don't like.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  I, I love it and I'm writing constantly and I'm.

• 1:01:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  And I.

• 1:01:21Billy Corgan?

  So it's Nicki's fault. That's what we're getting at.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, Nicki.

• 1:01:25Billy Corgan?

  Over there in.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  You're only as good as.

• 1:01:27Billy Corgan?

  Wyoming.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  And for me, you're only as good as your last effort. I'm I'm not a bit. I'm not big on like. You know, relying on what you've done in the past. Not to discount it, but I'm just saying.

• 1:01:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Where where are you now? And I'm curious.

• 1:01:45Billy Corgan?

  That's my point.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Yes, and and I believe we should. It's just I gotta, you know, do some arm wrestle and and stuff to kind of get everybody to to think that.

• 1:01:56Billy Corgan?

  So that's what I'm saying. If the Rolling Stones are making a new album, and they are arguably the biggest band in the world.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:01Billy Corgan?

  Still, right?

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Billy Corgan?

  If they're making new music in their eighties. Why are we?

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 1:02:09Billy Corgan?

  Not rushing to make new albums.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  You know, I'm on my way to rehearsal after this. I'm gonna walk in and go.

• 1:02:15Billy Corgan?

  You tell my.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  We need to make. Billy said we need to make a new record.

• 1:02:18Billy Corgan?

  You tell my old pal Nicky Six what I said.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  I will. I will. And I'm with you 100%.

• 1:02:23Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  Because I hate. I hate that, you know, and play the hits. Give the audience what they want. Well, they also wanna, like, I believe, wanna know where you're at.

• 1:02:36Billy Corgan?

  This is a poor analogy, but like, who's who's a movie star that you like? Like, an old school movie star?

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Old school.

• 1:02:41Billy Corgan?

  Pick one.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Movie star, uh.

• 1:02:45Billy Corgan?

  Just pick one.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 1:02:48Billy Corgan?

  Are you John Wayne fan, Humphrey Bogart, any of those guys?

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  You're saying old old.

• 1:02:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but any, any. It could be anybody. It could be. It could be John Travolta. It could be anybody.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, John. Let's say Travolta.

• 1:02:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay. There's only one John Travolta.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:02Billy Corgan?

  Do you not want to see a new John Travolta movie if it's good?

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  100%. He's and he's got a new one coming out.

• 1:03:08Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's what that's my point. I think I think we got lulled into this other music business in the last 20 years. Right?

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:17Billy Corgan?

  Which was about, well, it's about the past and the thing. And we don't have MTV anymore, so you can't market new records. I think this is all totally misguided.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%, man.

• 1:03:29Billy Corgan?

  God. Because the streaming numbers on new Pumpkins musics have been really good. And and and I like the stuff that you guys have put out over the last 10 or so years. I thought stuff was good.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks, man.

• 1:03:42Billy Corgan?

  In fact, I was with you one time when Bob Rock came in and was playing some stuff at your house and.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:48Billy Corgan?

  I think it was when you guys were doing the dirt. Kind of. It was like four songs. Some was like, Like a Version was on there and.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:54Billy Corgan?

  And I was like, this is great.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:56Billy Corgan?

  Like, as a fan, I'm like.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  It's cool, yeah.

• 1:03:58Billy Corgan?

  Anymore, you know, like, nothing wrong there.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's such a cool thing, I think.

• 1:04:03Billy Corgan?

  That's my, that's my.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  It keeps you current, keeps you relevant, current. I don't know, like. And not that that's incredibly important, but. And and maybe it's more for the musicians to like, want to do the new, like, here's where we're at, kind of a thing, but. I I don't know. I just.

• 1:04:21Billy Corgan?

  I just, my my argument, and I'd make it even in private, is. We've got to get back to running the music business. Around music.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Dude.

• 1:04:32Billy Corgan?

  Not museums, you know what I mean? Like, you can run the Motley Crue museum and I could run the Pumpkins museum.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Billy Corgan?

  And it's fine.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:04:39Billy Corgan?

  And there's a business there.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:04:40Billy Corgan?

  But that's not why we got into it.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  I know. I know. Yeah.

• 1:04:45Billy Corgan?

  We got it to make magic, you know what I mean?

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  It.

• 1:04:48Billy Corgan?

  And and when you're when you're one of the great bands and you're in one of the great bands, that's what you guys should do. That's my arguments. You tell Nicky Six what I saw.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  I I will, dude. I totally will.

• 1:04:58Billy Corgan?

  Um.

• 1:05:02Billy Corgan?

  This is a weird existential question, maybe too arty for you, but.

• 1:05:07Billy Corgan?

  What is what is true rebellion look like in a band in 2026? What does it truly mean to be rebellious if you're in a band in 2026? It can be your band, any band. What what does rebellion look like in this world?

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 1:05:23Billy Corgan?

  Because in our age, it was. Okay, well, there's the record company, you know, I'm against the man at the top of the hill.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Billy Corgan?

  The the slimy record promoter. You know, who's more interested in Coke and hookers than your new record? You know, there was a system in place and you could rebel against that.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40Billy Corgan?

  Or you could even rebel about, you know, because Reagan America, you know, this stodgy. Very Republican America that we grew up in, you know, was like. Push all those things over.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Billy Corgan?

  But what does rebellion look like today?

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  That is such a weird but cool question.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Would rebellion, would that be just? Doing. Keep doing what you're doing?

• 1:06:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Because that's what. We would do. We would do is when when everybody is going right, we're going left.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Maybe that's maybe that's what what it is in disguise is just doing. Keep doing what you're doing and doing it differently.

• 1:06:33Billy Corgan?

  Because because there's so many pop. Influencer pop types. They have hundreds of millions of followers, but nobody's really paying attention to their art.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:42Billy Corgan?

  So that what does that tell you? You know what I mean? There's still this economy out there of if people believe in you. And and certainly you guys have had many acts of redemption with your audience. They still believe in you. There's something that you embody physically, emotionally, spiritually that they believe in.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Billy Corgan?

  And to me, the winning is, well, we're just gonna keep going until we fall over.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I know, man.

• 1:07:09Billy Corgan?

  Anyway, sorry.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  You know, this is no, it's great. I can't wait to walk into rehearsal and be like, Nicki, I need to talk to you.

• 1:07:17Billy Corgan?

  All right. Here's the final stretch.

• 1:07:22Billy Corgan?

  You could take this however you want. You are, I would call, hyper political on social media. Hyper political. You don't have to talk to the politics, but do you think artists should be political or do you think it's a personal decision?

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  I.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  God, it's such a weird thing. You. What's what's your definition of hyper political like?

• 1:07:51Billy Corgan?

  Well, well, there's there's there's definitely. If you look at raw numbers, just raw numbers, this country is essentially 50 50 divided. Between left and right. You could argue in one state it's more and one state it's less, but overall, it's almost literally divided. If you notice even the presidential votes. They're fairly close, you know, be 70 million this and, you know, I mean, they're.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Billy Corgan?

  So so. Our audiences, which are which are. Heavily comprised of people in in in America. Well, just on sheer math, those audiences fall on both sides of the divide. So when you make a political statement on social media. And I'm sure you see the comments.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 1:08:34Billy Corgan?

  Half the people are like, right on, brother, and half the people are like. Shut up and play your drums or whatever.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Dude. I cannot tell you, like, that is the most I. I hate that. Just shut up and play drums. What? I don't have an opinion or a voice or nothing like. You know, you don't have to agree.

• 1:08:56Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  I'm just spitting out. Some bull that I think.

• 1:09:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. It's not to talk about the politics. It's to talk about. An artist being, taking a position. Do you think artists should be more forward in their in their in their politic? Or you think it's a personal decision? Because you know, there's a lot of people, and I'm sure you talk to them. They're afraid of what it would do negatively to their career.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Billy Corgan?

  They avoid those things on purpose.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:25Billy Corgan?

  They'll tell you what they think around dinner.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:27Billy Corgan?

  But they wouldn't say it on social media like you would because they're afraid of the backlash.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, which that kind of sucks. I wish. Everybody would. Just be honest.

• 1:09:37Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  That's all it is.

• 1:09:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  You know, um, and not worry so much about. The, you know. You know.

• 1:09:46Billy Corgan?

  But that's what makes you you, you see. You're not a person who thinks a lot about consequences.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  No, no. Yeah, because I don't care.

• 1:09:54Billy Corgan?

  But that's what makes you you.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's and and it's also that. And that's why, you know, there's times where I'll post something or say something where. I honestly, and I don't read the comments because I don't care.

• 1:10:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  And that's that's a fun position to be in. I guess you can just kind of have your little like. Social diarrhea moments where you just kind of throw it out there. If it sticks, cool. If it doesn't, doesn't matter.

• 1:10:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Like, you just. Hey, what do you guys think about that?

• 1:10:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Okay, so last thing.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Billy Corgan?

  I call it if I ruled the world. That's my. So if Tommy Lee ruled the world, what would you? What what's one or two things you would like to see changed, particularly in America right now? It doesn't even need to be political. Like, if you had the power to change things, what would you change?

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  I, you know, I don't even know if it's possible, but. God, I'm sure it would be cool if everybody was. To so it's just just not divided so much. I feel like. Everybody's running their own program and like, just all all over the place. I wish. I wish I. Could just like. Give the whole world a hug and be like, hey, guys, can we just? Can we just be?

• 1:11:10Billy Corgan?

  Well, if Motley if Motley Crue can get along, you see.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just, you know, I would just, I would try to get people to to. I would be I'd be injecting as much love as possible, you know? Because there's. There's an incredible imbalance right now everywhere. Like, it's just.

• 1:11:33Billy Corgan?

  Well, Sean Parker, who was one of the, he was behind Napster. And was one of the main guys at the beginning of Facebook, said they realized at the very early stages of Facebook that. The way they were going to run those algorithms was going to divide people. Because basically, the way those programs were set up is if you liked one thing, they were going to feed you more of it.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:54Billy Corgan?

  So if you're on one side of the politic, you were going to get more of what you wanted to hear. And so you end up in these echo chambers. And I think that's kind of maybe what you're saying is people are so, they've lost the ability to actually listen to people.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:07Billy Corgan?

  And that's what I love about even just being able to talk about. It's just like, it's just a conversation.

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Billy Corgan?

  And I see where people get really wound up about some of the stuff that goes on on this modest podcast.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Do you?

• 1:12:19Billy Corgan?

  You know? But.

• 1:12:23Billy Corgan?

  What I always say to people is, is, as an artist, if you don't believe in free speech. You're basically willing to have your gig blown up.

• 1:12:34Billy Corgan?

  Because I, you know, I once sang in a song, The Killer In Me Is The Killer In You. I never killed anybody.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:39Billy Corgan?

  It's a metaphorical line.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:42Billy Corgan?

  We were banned by the BBC because they wanted us to change that line.

• 1:12:47Billy Corgan?

  Literally, when the song was coming out, it was a single of whatever, 1993.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:51Billy Corgan?

  They said, change the liner, we won't play. And we were banned by the BBC.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  You didn't change it?

• 1:12:55Billy Corgan?

  No, because I said this has nothing to do with killing.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Billy Corgan?

  And it was a horrible situation because there'd been an incident in England and they thought people were going to mistake the song for what had happened. It was a horrible thing that happened to a little boy, but.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 1:13:07Billy Corgan?

  But, um.

• 1:13:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So as artists, I just think as long as we sort of always say, well. Free speech.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:15Billy Corgan?

  Sort of my one, my one thing is is we got to stand behind free speech because, like, when you're singing Shout At The Devil. It, you know. Even if you said we were shouting at the devil, it doesn't matter.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and.

• 1:13:28Billy Corgan?

  It's it's eye of the beholder and.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:13:31Billy Corgan?

  Have the ability and the freedom to say crazy stuff.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the devil not. Meaning the actual devil, like, we were devilish, shouting at.

• 1:13:42Billy Corgan?

  So last, who was the devil? Reveal now, who was?

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  It was them.

• 1:13:47Billy Corgan?

  It was them up there.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Them.

• 1:13:49Billy Corgan?

  Love you, brother.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  People in power.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Love you too, bro.