Pod Insights Murder In America EP. 212 - UTAH: The Susan Powell Story (Pt. 2) About this episode In today’s episode, we explore the darker side of the Susan Powell case, and investigate the tendrils of evil that extended from one family involved.
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Transcript 21,483 words · 16 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Colin Brown? Warning: The following podcast is not suitable for all audiences. We go into great detail with every case that we cover and do our best to bring viewers even deeper into the stories by utilizing disturbing audio and sound effects.
0:12 Courtney Brown? Trigger warnings from the stories we cover may include violence, rape, murder, and offenses against children.
0:18 Colin Brown? This podcast is not for everyone. You have been warned.
0:24 Courtney Brown? In our last episode, we walked you through the life of Susan Powell. When Susan was 19 years old, she met her future husband, Josh. And in the beginning, they seemed like a perfect couple. However, after getting married, Susan watched as her husband grew into someone she didn't recognize. Josh was controlling, selfish, manipulative, and he could never seem to hold down a job. Their marriage was filled with conflict. Josh stopped going to church. They were constantly struggling with money. And Josh's father even had a sick obsession with Susan.
1:04 Courtney Brown? But despite everything, Susan held on to her marriage, likely for the sake of their two young boys, Charlie and Brayden. Part one of this story is about their life before the tragedy. So if you haven't listened to that, go back now and give it a listen. But part two is about the tragedy itself and all of the horrific things that came after. I'm Courtney Brown.
1:30 Colin Brown? And I'm Colin Brown.
1:32 Courtney Brown? And you're listening to Murder in America.
2:32 Courtney Brown? In early December of 2009, the residents of West Valley City, Utah, were going about their days like normal.
2:41 Courtney Brown? They had no idea that their city was about to be the site of one of America's most infamous crimes. For over a year, Susan Powell had been suspicious of her husband. Not that he was cheating or breaking any laws, but that he wanted her dead. Susan had even hidden a letter at her work that talked about the turmoil in her marriage. In it, she warned, “If I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like one.” But even after writing that, Susan stayed with Josh. There were times when things got better for the couple, leaving Susan to think that maybe things would change.
3:24 Courtney Brown? Maybe they could work on their marriage for the sake of their children. But sadly, it seemed as though Josh Powell didn’t share that same sentiment. In late November of 2009, he started buying a bunch of outdoor supplies: tree branch wrap and a torch that could burn through steel. There didn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to these purchases, which wasn’t uncommon for Josh. He often spent their money on useless things. But based on what would happen next, it’s suspected that Josh bought those things for a very specific purpose.
4:07 Colin Brown? On Saturdays, Susan Powell usually worked, but on this Saturday, December 5th, she decided to take the morning off because her LDS church was having a big breakfast. Josh, of course, didn't want to go, so Susan took the boys by herself. When they got home that afternoon, Josh needed to pick up some things from Lowe's and Home Depot. It's unknown what he bought, but Susan and the boys did go with him. Now, later that evening, Josh and Susan planned to go to Josh's Christmas party at work. They usually had a hard time finding babysitters because Josh would only pay $2 an hour. But on this night, Susan's friend, Jovona Owings, had a teenage son named Alex who agreed to watch Charlie and Brayden.
4:48 Colin Brown? So as the sun set, Josh and Susan got dressed up, and once Alex arrived at their house, they left for the party.
4:55 Courtney Brown? For a few hours, they mingled with Josh's coworkers, and Susan was her normal, friendly self. Josh was his normal self as well: loud, talkative, and opinionated. Now during the party, his employers had set up this raffle to win a digital video camera. And Josh actually won it. According to the people there, everything seemed completely normal between Josh and Susan. There was absolutely no indication that there was trouble on the horizon.
5:29 Colin Brown? The following day, Sunday, December 6th, Susan and the boys woke up early and got ready for church. Their church was right down the road from their house, so they actually walked there. Back at home, at 12:14 PM, Josh Powell made a phone call to his father, Steve. Throughout his life, the father and son had a very strange relationship. Josh was aware of the fact that his father was once in love with Susan, but they still kept in contact. On this particular morning, Josh said that he called his father, asking about a pancake recipe. Josh then went to the store to buy some groceries. Soon after, once the church service ended, Susan and the boys walked back home with their friend and neighbor, Kersy Hallowell.
6:11 Colin Brown? Now, Kersy knew a lot about Josh and Susan's rocky marriage. Susan would often vent to her about all of the problems they were facing. But on this morning, Kersy said that Susan appeared to be in good spirits. Susan had recently told her that Josh seemed to be making more of an effort. But little did Kersy know, this would be the very last conversation she would ever have with Susan Powell.
6:35 Courtney Brown? Susan, Charlie, and Brayden walked through the doors of their West Sarah Circle home, and they changed out of their church clothes. Susan then went to the living room and decided to work on this crochet blanket she was making for Brayden. However, as she picked up the roll of yarn, she saw that it was a tangled mess. So, she decided to call up her friend Giovanna. When Giovanna answered, Susan asked if she wanted to come over. She wanted to catch up with her, but she also needed some help untangling that roll of yarn. And Giovanna was happy to help. Around 2:30 PM, Giovanna made her way over to the house and saw Susan sitting on the
7:19 Courtney Brown? love seat. And together, they sat in the living room chatting while untangling the orange, yellow, and turquoise yarn. Both Charlie and Brayden played on the floor next to them, while Josh stayed in the kitchen making some food. It was cream cheese pancakes and scrambled eggs. According to Giovanna, nothing seemed out of the ordinary, except for the fact that Josh was being extra helpful this afternoon. Now, like Susan's other friends, Giovanna knew about the troubles within their marriage, how Josh never helped out, and how he barely attended to Susan's needs.
8:01 Courtney Brown? But today, he was making them food. And at one point, he even walked over and wrapped a blanket around Susan.
8:11 Colin Brown? Once Josh was finished making the pancakes, they all sat down to eat, including Giovanna. But almost immediately after their meal, Susan grew extremely tired. She even excused herself so she could go take a nap. From there, Giovanna untangled more of the yarn while Josh cleaned up the kitchen. Around 5:00 PM, Josh made a comment about going to take the boys sledding. Giovanna felt like she was overstaying her welcome, so she decided to say her goodbyes and leave. Now, the Powell family's minivan was seen leaving their house at 5:30 PM. Three hours later, at 8:30 PM, another neighbor watched as the minivan pulled into the garage. For the next few hours, no one witnessed anything going on around the Powell home.
8:56 Colin Brown? But at 11:45 PM, one of their neighbors heard a car alarm going off inside the Powells' garage. When they looked outside, they said that it was strange because their garage door was closed and all the lights to the house were off. Then after a few minutes, the alarm stopped.
9:12 Courtney Brown? The following morning was Monday, December 7, 2009. The night prior, a huge snowstorm blew through the area. The roads were icy, the temperatures were below freezing, and there had been four inches of snowfall throughout the previous night. But snowstorm or not, the people of West Valley City still had to go to work. So that morning, everyone got up, got dressed, and started their day like they always do, including a woman named Debbie Caldwell. Now Debbie worked at a daycare center in town called Daydreams and Fun Things Childcare.
9:55 Courtney Brown? She arrived to work that Monday morning extra early, and little by little, the kids started piling in. But as the clock ticked by, Debbie started to wonder about the Powell kids. Usually Susan Powell dropped off Charlie and Brayden every day at 6:45 AM. But today, they were late. Very late. Now Debbie had never got a call that the boys wouldn't be there that day, so she decided to phone the Powell home. But, there was no answer. She then called Susan's phone, but it went straight to voicemail. Next, she decided to call Josh's work.
10:37 Courtney Brown? They ended up answering, but what they said next left Debbie with a sinking feeling. "Josh didn't show up to work today," they said. It was a no-call, no-show. Debbie then called Susan's work, but to her surprise, she didn't show up to work either. After getting off the phone, Debbie was so concerned, she decided to go by the Powell house to make sure everything was okay. Now Debbie had been to their house before. There were many times when Josh would forget to pick the boys up from daycare, so she would have to drive them home. It wasn't in her job description, but Debbie really cared about Susan and the boys.
11:21 Courtney Brown? She knew that they had fallen on hard times, so she did what she could to help. But on this morning, as Debbie pulled up to their house shortly after 9:00 a.m., she felt that something was terribly wrong. She knocked on their front door over and over again, but there was no answer.
11:42 Courtney Brown? She wanted to look through the windows, but all of the blinds were shut. And from what she could observe, there was no movement inside.
11:55 Colin Brown? Desperate for answers, Debbie located the emergency contact on Josh and Susan's paperwork, which happened to be Josh's sister, Jennifer Graves. Jennifer was at her house at the time with her mom, Terri. She missed the phone call from Debbie, but soon enough, she heard a worried voice play out on her answering machine. Both Jennifer and Terri were listening in, as Debbie told them that Josh, Susan, Charlie, and Brayden seemed to be missing. Immediately, Jennifer and Terri got in their car and made their way to the Powell residence on West Sarah Circle. Like Debbie, they tried knocking on the door, but no one answered. They then tried getting into the house, but all the doors were locked. But the first thought in their minds wasn't that Josh had done something nefarious.
12:39 Colin Brown? In fact, they thought that maybe the family was inside, dead from carbon monoxide poisoning. So Josh's mom, Terri, quickly called 911.
12:49 Speaker 02 My son and his wife and their two children haven't responded to anything this morning. They normally would go to work and take their children to the daycare two or three hours ago. And they're not responding to calls, but they're not responding to people pounding on their door. There's no tracks coming out of their driveway. Or there wasn't this morning, a little while ago, when the daycare lady went over there. Are they out of town? I haven't had anything from them saying that they would be out of town. And it's not like them to not call their daycare lady.
13:24 Courtney Brown? When the police arrived at the house, they too knocked on the door. When that didn't work, they tried looking through the windows, but the blinds were shut. The officers even tried looking through the garage window. But strangely enough, a blanket had been hung up, blocking their view. Josh's family told them about their concerns with possible carbon monoxide poisoning. And they asked if the police could break a window to get inside. And thinking that the Powell family might be in danger, they agreed. Once inside the house, the police could immediately hear a loud news broadcast coming from a stereo. They announced their presence, but no one responded.
14:09 Courtney Brown? So from there, they started going room to room. At first glance, there were no signs of a struggle and no signs of forced entry. But there were some things of concern. Susan's red snow boots were sitting right by the front door. Given the recent snowstorm, she would have worn them if she was going outside. The officers also found her purse with her wallet and driver's license. Both things that Susan wouldn't have left her house without. But the most concerning thing of all were the two large box fans in the living room. They were blowing air on the love seat and a wet spot on the carpet.
14:49 Courtney Brown? They weren't sure what to think of it, but it appeared as if someone had been trying to clean something up. Now, after looking through the home, it was clear that Josh, Susan, Charlie, and Brayden weren't there. So where were they? And why weren't they answering their phones?
15:09 Colin Brown? Josh's sister Jennifer began knocking on doors throughout their neighborhood to see if anyone had seen the Powells. She ended up talking to Kersy Halliwell. When Kersy learned that the Powell family was missing, she said that this feeling of dread washed over her. It was a feeling that everyone felt. Jennifer began calling everyone she knew trying to get answers. She called Susan's parents and her friends, but sadly, no one had seen or heard from her. Some people assumed that the Powells had gotten into a car accident during the snowstorm. Others were convinced that it was all a misunderstanding, and that the family would soon come back home. But Josh's sister Jennifer had this nagging feeling that her brother had done something horrible.
15:50 Courtney Brown? Throughout that morning, Susan's phone was flooded with calls from worried friends and family members. And I always think about that in the early days of a missing persons case. The amount of texts and calls that come in. At first, the people are composed, saying things like, "Hey Susan, we can't get ahold of you. If you get this, call us back." But then, over time, the calls get more frantic. Their voices are shaky as they plead, saying things like, "Susan, we're so worried about you. Please let someone know that you're okay." However, for Susan's loved ones, they would never get that call back.
16:35 Colin Brown? Throughout that morning, both Josh and Susan's phones continued going to voicemail. Their loved ones even started calling local hospitals, but nothing. Not knowing what else to do, police started looking into Josh and Susan's background. But there were no arrests, no domestic dispute calls, nothing. However, neighbors painted a much different story. Susan's friend Kersy told police that Josh and Susan had been having a lot of problems. She said Josh was "controlling" and verbally abusive. Josh's family even talked to Steve Powell and asked if he knew where Josh and Susan were. He admitted that he had talked to Josh the day prior about that pancake recipe, but he hadn't talked to him since.
17:16 Courtney Brown? Eventually, Susan's friend Giovanna got a text that read, "Susan, Josh and the boys are missing. We don't know where they are. They haven't been seen since church." Now Giovanna knew that that wasn't true. She was at the Powells' house after church to help Susan untangle that yarn. So it seemed as if Giovanna was the last person to have contact with the Powell family. Like all the others before her, Giovanna tried dialing Josh's phone, and to her surprise, he answered.
17:53 Courtney Brown? Giovanna was frantic. "Where are you? Everyone's been looking for you guys," she said. There was a brief moment of silence on the other end of the phone. But finally, Josh replied that he was just driving around. "Where?" she asked. Josh said that he was leaving a campground two hours away, near the Pony Express. He said that he, Charlie, and Brayden had gone there the night before, for a last-minute camping trip. "Well, what about Susan?" Giovanna asked. "Where is she?" Josh responded, "I don't know, she's probably at work."
18:36 Courtney Brown? Giovanna would later say that there were red flags everywhere. She knew that Susan didn't go to work that morning. She also knew that the family only had one car, so if Susan wasn't at home, and she wasn't with Josh and the boys, then where was she?
18:55 Colin Brown? Giovanna begged Josh to come home. He told her he was on the way, but it would be a while since he was two hours away. So for the next few hours, everyone anxiously waited for Josh to return back home. By 5:45 PM, he still hadn't come back. So his sister Jennifer tried his phone again. This time, he answered. When Jennifer asked where he was, Josh tried telling her that he had been at work all day. Jennifer confronted him on the lie, and finally, Josh admitted that he and the boys had been camping. But when Jennifer asked about Susan, Josh paused, before coldly asking, "How much do you know?" The question sent chills down Jennifer's spine. She knew right then that Josh had done something to Susan.
19:40 Colin Brown? She told her brother to get home as soon as possible. Josh said he would, but first, he was taking the boys to get pizza.
19:49 Courtney Brown? It wouldn't be until 6:40 PM, when Josh's minivan finally pulled into his driveway, he was met with a crowd of concerned people who had been looking for Susan all day. And now that he was home, the police had a lot of questions for Josh. At around 7 PM, he made his way to the police station for questioning. Charlie and Brayden were actually in the room during the interview. But it's here, where Josh tells them that he went on a last-minute camping trip with the boys and that he has no idea where Susan is. Here is part of that interview.
20:25 Speaker 03 Did you know where Susan's at? Hmm? No?
20:30 Speaker 03 No.
20:32 Speaker 03 When's the last time you seen her? Probably about midnight of last night.
20:41 Speaker 03 Where at? At home.
20:45 Speaker 03 What was she doing? What were... what was she wearing? Where was she at now?
20:51 Speaker 03 Um...
20:55 Speaker 03 She was wearing...
21:02 Speaker 03 She was just wearing something comfortable. Obviously, everybody's concerned. Everybody's worried. Everybody's worried about all four of you.
21:10 Speaker 03 I mean, we saw you get 11 calls at 10 o'clock this morning and... I didn't even know that was happening. I apologize. That, um...
21:19 Speaker 03 Like I say, we got snowed in and there's just no cell service, so it killed my phone, you know? It just tries harder and dies, you know? Mm-hmm. Um...
21:36 Speaker 03 In fact, I actually turned it off to try to save the battery.
21:41 Courtney Brown? So they asked Josh, "Walk us through yesterday." Josh seemed pretty calm as he told them about Susan and the boys going to church, how he went to the grocery store, made some pancakes, and how Giovanna came over that afternoon. He said that Susan took a nap. Eventually Brayden fell asleep too, so he and Charlie decided to go sledding. Josh said that they came back around 8:00 PM and from there, he put Charlie to bed. For the next two hours, Josh just hung out at home. But at 10:00 PM, Susan woke up and asked him to clean the couch.
22:21 Speaker 03 You wanted me to clean the couch, so I did. And then, uh, I watched... What do you mean by "clean the couch"? Um... Just get rid of all the kids' goobers and stuff. So like, what, like a washcloth or something, or... Um, actually a cleaner. Okay, so you used the rug doctor and cleaned the couch?
22:51 Courtney Brown? After cleaning the couch, Josh said he set up those fans, and that's when he decided to go on the camping trip, hours away. He said that he left the house with his four and two-year-old sons around midnight. Susan stayed home.
23:07 Speaker 03 Um, well, I started heading south through Tooele. Turned onto the Pony Express. Mm-hmm. And that's... how far down the Pony Express did you go? Not very far. Maybe 20 miles, I don't know.
23:34 Speaker 03 Twenty miles on the Pony Express? Maybe.
23:39 Speaker 03 Okay. Did you just stop and run the side of the road, or stay on the road when you went down there? Is that where you just drove straight to?
23:48 Speaker 03 From your house? Pretty much, yeah. Pretty much? Where'd you stop in between? Well, I mean, no, that's it. Well, pretty much, I mean, it's... Sorry. I mean, pretty much means you stopped somewhere else, so... No, I, I, I, I don't, I just went straight there. You drove straight to the Pony Express? So when you got to your destination, twenty miles, possibly twenty miles down the Pony Express, what, uh... Did you just stay on the road? Did you pull up on the side of the road? No, they, they have trails that you can drive on and... Mm-hmm.
24:22 Speaker 03 I mean, I just found one and...
24:25 Speaker 03 How far up the trail did you go?
24:37 Speaker 03 I, I don't know, a mile or something, I, I don't know.
24:42 Courtney Brown? Josh said that after they found their camping spot, he stopped and they made a fire. The boys eventually went to sleep, and they spent the night camping out there. Josh said that he didn't even realize he had to go to work the next morning. He thought it was Sunday, not Monday. Now, the detectives are not believing a word he is saying. As we mentioned, they had a huge snowstorm come in that night. What father would take their two young sons camping in the middle of the night during a snowstorm? Especially when Josh had work the following morning. But they continue asking him questions. "So, after camping, did you come straight home?" they asked. Josh said, "No."
25:27 Courtney Brown? He drove around for a while, and he even stopped at a car wash. The detectives thought this was suspicious as well. There was still snow and mud covering the roads. Why clean your car just to get it dirty again as soon as you start driving?
25:44 Colin Brown? Eventually, the detectives started asking Josh about the state of his marriage.
25:49 Speaker 03 I mean, you know, it's pretty good, I mean...
25:58 Speaker 03 We sometimes have disagreements, but, uh, you know, everybody has disagreements.
26:03 Speaker 03 Right? I think so. So, nothing? It's not like...
26:10 Speaker 03 Not like we... Really get in screaming fights or anything. Yeah. Well...
26:17 Speaker 03 Not usually. This happened a couple of times. Yeah. But, you know, it's... Very, very rare. Like, a marriage counselor? Yeah, just a marriage counselor, just, you know, working out... Just working out issues. What kind of issues for those? Um...
26:40 Speaker 03 Well... Uh...
26:48 Speaker 03 I mean, frankly, she has kind of a temper. Okay.
26:53 Speaker 03 Um...
26:56 Speaker 03 And I guess sometimes I'm lazy. Okay. So that led you guys to marriage counseling?
27:06 Speaker 03 Yeah, and I wasn't going to church.
27:08 Colin Brown? Again, they ask him where he thinks Susan is located, but Josh's answers are all over the place.
27:14 Speaker 03 First, we're taking a report at ten o'clock. Well, I think she would go to work. All right, well, she didn't go to work, dude. I mean, I think she would try to go to work. Well, she didn't even try to go to work. I don't know. She didn't go to work. She wasn't at work. She didn't go to work all day.
27:29 Speaker 03 So...
27:36 Speaker 03 Seems like she would have gotten up, got ready. Where's her cellphone at?
27:42 Speaker 03 I don't know.
27:44 Speaker 03 You don't know where her cellphone is? Where should I start looking? What should I start doing? What do you think I should do?
27:54 Speaker 03 Do you have a...
28:00 Speaker 03 Do you have a line to the hospital? It's already been done.
28:12 Speaker 03 I don't know, I've never dealt with this. You didn't take her out to the Polar Express with you guys? No. And the last time you seen her was at midnight last night?
28:26 Speaker 03 Back from midnight, yeah. And you haven't seen her talk to us since? No.
28:32 Speaker 03 Okay, well, I wanna check, I wanna check your van. Can I check your van? Can I search your van? Search it? Uh huh.
28:41 Speaker 03 I guess so? Well, yes or no, it's what I'm asking.
28:47 Speaker 03 I mean, you're just saying, look through it? Uh huh. Yeah, I mean, I guess so. Good.
28:53 Colin Brown? To their surprise, Josh signed a consent form for them to search his car. But as he signed it, they couldn't help but notice some cuts all over Josh's hands, something they would take note of. But from there, they started looking through the Powell's minivan. Josh sat in the driver's seat as they searched it. In the back, detectives found a plastic tarp. There were also tools: a shovel, rake, broom, humidifier, box cutter, handsaw, extension cord, circular saw, comforter from a queen-sized bed, blue gloves, extra clothes, and a plastic tote with unopened camping gear. All very suspicious, but there wasn't any detectable blood or sign of human remains.
29:32 Courtney Brown? After looking through the back, they made their way around to the front seat. During their interview, Josh said that he had his phone turned off because he didn't have a charger and he wanted to save battery. But there, right in front of them, was a working charger that was compatible with Josh's phone. Next, they look in the console. They had to dig around a bit, but soon enough, they spotted a pink cellphone. When they lifted it up, the detective said that Josh had a look of panic on his face. "Whose is this?" they asked. Josh was so shocked, he couldn't even answer them. Finally, after a few seconds, they ask him, "Why do you have Susan's cellphone?"
30:17 Courtney Brown? Flustered, Josh says that he completely forgot he borrowed it from Susan.
30:24 Colin Brown? Now at this point, it's getting pretty late. But the detectives still have a ton of questions for Josh. They ask him if he would come back to the station later the following morning, and Josh agrees. Later that night, he finally returns home with Charlie and Brayden. By that point, word had spread quickly around West Valley about Susan's disappearance. And everyone was hoping that, in some sort of miracle, Susan would come back that night with some crazy story about where she had been. But deep down, most people knew that that wouldn't be the case.
31:04 Courtney Brown? Early that next morning, the detectives working the case made their way to the police station, ready to interview Josh Powell again. But, he wouldn't show. Instead, neighbors saw Josh cleaning out his car early that morning. Now eventually, his sister Jennifer showed up at his house to watch the boys. And when she arrived, Josh was running around his house, cleaning up. She noticed he had these wet rags in his hands, and was doing laundry. Jennifer would later say that it was the strangest thing. "Your wife is missing, you're supposed to be at the police station, and here you are, cleaning up your house."
31:48 Colin Brown? Josh ultimately made it to the police station that day. However, he showed up three hours late.
31:54 Speaker 04 Now, on the way over here, I actually did call my attorneys. And, they said I should definitely have an attorney.
32:03 Speaker 05 What's that?
32:05 Speaker 04 I called my attorneys, which is prepaid legal.
32:08 Speaker 05 Okay.
32:08 Speaker 04 And, they said that I should definitely have an attorney.
32:14 Speaker 05 Dude, if I didn't read you your Miranda rights.
32:18 Speaker 05 Have I?
32:20 Speaker 04 That's what they said.
32:21 Speaker 05 Okay. Well, let me ask you this then, okay? Do you feel like you're under arrest?
32:28 Speaker 04 I don't, I don't know. I didn't even think it was that. I didn't, didn't even think it yesterday, but...
32:38 Speaker 05 What are you worried about? What are you concerned about?
32:43 Speaker 04 You guys, you know, have implied some things and so it concerns me.
32:51 Speaker 05 We've implied what?
32:53 Speaker 04 Well, you've implied that my hands have some kind of defensive wounds on them.
32:59 Speaker 04 Just because they're all cut up and that's just, it's just the way they are.
33:05 Speaker 05 Okay, so there should be anything you need to worry about then, right?
33:10 Speaker 04 Yeah, go ahead and ask the questions.
33:14 Speaker 05 Okay, you understand, you don't have to be here, alright? And you need to understand that. If you want to leave, you can leave at any time.
33:21 Speaker 04 Alright.
33:22 Speaker 05 You're not under arrest, I'm not detaining you, okay? If you don't want to be here, you can leave. If you don't want to talk, you don't have to talk. I'm just simply saying that I want to find your wife.
33:35 Speaker 04 I just want to talk, but I'm getting scared.
33:39 Speaker 05 Okay.
33:41 Speaker 05 Well, I mean, if you haven't done nothing wrong, Josh, if you didn't do anything wrong, there's nothing to be scared about, right?
33:49 Speaker 04 Well, I'm scared.
33:52 Speaker 04 About the possibilities.
33:53 Speaker 05 Okay.
33:55 Speaker 04 What's happened?
33:57 Speaker 05 Well, I'm worried about possibilities of what happened too. Because I have no idea where she's at and you don't either. And that's why I need your help.
34:09 Speaker 04 Alright, yeah, go ahead and ask the questions.
34:12 Colin Brown? Once again, the detective asked him to go over exactly what happened on Sunday, December 6th. And this time, Josh had a few more details. He said that after Giovanna came over and they ate those pancakes, Susan went to take a nap. A few hours later, they ate hot dogs and then he decided to take Charlie sledding. And here's what he said happened next.
34:34 Speaker 04 I was talking to my son about smores. You know, he was just
34:39 Speaker 04 super excited about cocoa and smores.
34:43 Speaker 04 There's snow. Gotta eat cocoa. At Christmas.
34:55 Speaker 04 Then we watched a movie. Well, no, actually, then we...
35:04 Speaker 04 She wanted the couch cleaned, so I did the rug doctor. We try to do something each week, you know?
35:14 Speaker 04 It's too hard if it's all wet at once, you know, and it dries slow. So we...
35:26 Speaker 04 Then we watched a movie.
35:30 Speaker 04 And I think that was probably Santa Claus 3.
35:42 Speaker 04 And then we, uh...
35:45 Speaker 04 Finished up the movie.
35:49 Speaker 04 I talked to her about, uh...
35:54 Speaker 04 I'm taking the boys to do smores.
35:59 Speaker 04 And try out the new generator, you know? And...
36:05 Speaker 04 She went to bed. And I finished packing and loaded them up.
36:14 Courtney Brown? Once again, Josh said he didn't realize it was Sunday. Which is pretty hard to believe considering Susan and the boys went to church that morning. But according to Josh, Susan didn't realize it was Sunday either.
36:29 Speaker 05 Did you make arrangements? Did you guys, uh, talk about arrangements for her getting to work?
36:38 Speaker 04 I was thinking it was gonna be Sunday, and I didn't even think... About work.
36:46 Speaker 05 And her?
36:48 Speaker 04 I guess it didn't cross her mind at the time.
36:51 Speaker 05 Okay.
36:56 Speaker 05 And then what time, what time did you say that she went to bed?
37:01 Speaker 04 Probably 12:30-ish.
37:03 Speaker 05 Okay.
37:10 Speaker 05 Was there anything said before she went to bed? Any... Did you guys talk about anything else before she went to sleep?
37:20 Speaker 04 Just talked and...
37:23 Speaker 04 Second night, that's about it.
37:27 Courtney Brown? According to Josh's story, Susan was totally fine with them leaving in the middle of the night during a snowstorm to go camping hours away. So he got the boys out of bed, put them in the car, and loaded everything up. Including a generator, humidifier, camping supplies, a heater, and quote, "a bunch of other stuff." But Josh couldn't remember what that other stuff was. Now, the previous night, Josh told the detectives that he left their house a little after midnight. But now, he says, it was around 1:30 to 2 AM.
38:07 Speaker 04 But it was also snowing, and so... I was... Pretty focused on the road.
38:14 Speaker 05 Okay.
38:15 Speaker 04 Looking for a turnoff. Like I say, I just found a trail and...
38:19 Speaker 05 Were you concerned with the snow, knowing that there was a snowstorm coming in?
38:25 Speaker 04 Um, yeah, I was...
38:27 Speaker 05 You had a minivan?
38:28 Speaker 04 Actually, the minivan handles like a 4x4.
38:31 Speaker 05 Okay.
38:35 Speaker 04 Yeah, you can go some serious off-roading with that minivan.
38:38 Speaker 05 Okay.
38:40 Speaker 05 So, I mean, wasn't that a concern with the storm coming in, and it was already snowing?
38:45 Speaker 04 It wasn't already snowing when I left.
38:47 Speaker 05 No, it was snowing when you got out there.
38:50 Speaker 04 Yeah. And so, I was watching the road, and I'm going, "How thick is this gonna get?"
39:00 Speaker 04 And...
39:03 Speaker 04 You know, "Are we gonna get stuck?" And then I thought, "Well..." You know, "What are the odds that it'll be anything that'll get us stuck out there?"
39:13 Speaker 04 You know, and we have the generator and the heaters, and so it's like, "Well..." "We can risk it."
39:20 Speaker 05 Yeah.
39:21 Speaker 04 Already here, what the heck, you know?
39:26 Speaker 05 So about how far do you think you went, west on the trail?
39:31 Speaker 05 Yeah, I guess.
39:34 Speaker 04 I don't know.
39:37 Speaker 04 Maybe twenty miles, or who knows?
39:40 Speaker 05 Okay, so maybe twenty miles?
39:43 Colin Brown? By the time Josh got to the campsite, it was nearing 4 a.m. He said from there, he started setting up all their camping gear. After that, he and the boys went to bed, but he only got about three hours of sleep. Josh said that he woke up at 7 a.m., made a fire, they ate some marshmallows for breakfast, and then they decided that they had got their camping fix in and were ready to leave. But Josh admitted that instead of driving straight home, he and the boys went on a joyride for hours and hours. Then he decided to take his car through the car wash.
40:14 Speaker 05 Where's the car at?
40:18 Speaker 04 Just, uh, just the first car wash I saw.
40:21 Speaker 05 Where's that at?
40:23 Speaker 04 In, I guess it's in Lehigh.
40:27 Speaker 05 What road were you on?
40:29 Speaker 04 Couldn't tell you. That one that comes through Lehigh.
40:33 Speaker 05 Okay. What, uh, what was the car wash like? What kind of a car wash was it?
40:41 Speaker 04 Um, well, it was a self-serve.
40:46 Speaker 05 Self-serve?
40:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
40:49 Speaker 05 Okay, what was the name of it?
40:52 Speaker 04 I have no clue.
40:56 Speaker 05 How'd you pay it? For the services?
41:04 Speaker 05 So when you say self-serve, is that, um, describe what it looks like?
41:10 Speaker 04 Just garages that you can pull into and wash.
41:14 Speaker 05 Okay.
41:15 Speaker 04 Just get in the pressure washer.
41:17 Speaker 05 No attendant that's there, no gas station? Okay.
41:22 Speaker 04 Not there?
41:23 Speaker 05 How many bays are there?
41:27 Speaker 04 I don't even know. There's... There's a handful.
41:32 Speaker 05 What side of the road is that on?
41:38 Speaker 04 Up north.
41:40 Courtney Brown? Now, the detectives wanna know, "Did you talk to Susan while y'all were gone? I'm sure she was worried about you guys being out in the storm and everything." But Josh said, "No." He had his phone off because the signal is bad out there. He was adamant that he had no idea where Susan was. Josh even tried to convince them that Susan was suicidal. But the detectives weren't buying it.
42:06 Speaker 05 I need you to tell me what you think has happened to her.
42:16 Speaker 04 I don't think she would leave on her own.
42:21 Speaker 05 Okay. That's a start. You don't think she would leave on her own. What do you, what do you think has happened?
42:29 Speaker 04 I just don't know. I mean, you know,
42:35 Speaker 04 you can sit and speculate, but I don't have any clue.
42:39 Speaker 05 Okay. What do you think I'm speculating?
42:42 Speaker 04 I, I don't know.
42:45 Speaker 05 Well, something must have crossed your mind for you to say that to me.
42:49 Speaker 04 You guys,
42:52 Speaker 04 you know, I mean, it's a fact, you know?
42:58 Speaker 04 The closest people to a person is always the top suspects.
43:03 Speaker 05 And we need to get this figured out. I have other questions. I have a couple of other questions that I wanna ask you, okay? Um, and in order for me to ask you these questions and then ask you to do something else, I have to read you your Miranda rights. You're not under arrest. You're not going to jail. Okay? I'm not gonna cuff you up, alright? And, like I said again, you're not under arrest. You came here on your free will. You can leave at any time. You already knew that. You still know that, right? Although, I wanna ask you more specific questions and, um, and I wanna see, if you say that you're willing to help us out, then what do we need to do? We need to eliminate you as being a person of interest.
43:48 Speaker 05 There's nobody else out there for me to go and talk to and to clarify. So I need to clarify your story. I need to verify your story, right?
43:57 Speaker 04 I guess at that point, then, I need to...
44:01 Speaker 05 So I need to verify-
44:02 Speaker 04 I probably need to consider-
44:05 Speaker 05 So I need to first, okay, well, and if that's the case, then that just is gonna prolong the,
44:12 Speaker 05 well, whatever. I was, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read your rights. I'm gonna read you your rights, okay? We have your, we have your house. You're not gonna be able to go back to your house. Okay? What, what do you mean? Your house, your house is ours, for right now. We're not gonna let you back into that house, okay? Your car is ours. We're not gonna let you have your car. Okay? We need to find her, right? Isn't that what your goal is? I would hope that our goals is the same.
44:45 Colin Brown? The Conspiracy Files is the most explosive show on the internet. I'm your host, Colin Brown, from The Paranormal Files on YouTube, and I'm inviting you to take this twisted journey down the rabbit hole with me. Together, we will dive deep into some of the world's most dangerous and disturbing conspiracy theories, from suspicious suicides to hidden pedophile rings and high-profile cover-ups. On my show, no story is off limits, and no detail will be spared. And trust me, after listening to just one episode, you will never look at the world the same. So, if you like conspiracies, mysteries, true crime, and chaos, then this is the show for you. Listen to The Conspiracy Files now on all streaming platforms, or wherever you get your podcasts.
45:32 Colin Brown? Josh had a look of panic spread across his face when he learned the detectives were searching his house and car. But after being read his Miranda rights, it was obvious he was no longer interested in speaking with them.
45:43 Speaker 05 I mean, let me think about it for a couple of days and... Your wife is missing, Josh. Yeah, but I've all... And you wanna think about it for a couple of days?
45:54 Courtney Brown? Something else he didn't know is that while he was being questioned, Josh's sister Jennifer had taken Charlie and Brayden to the Children's Justice Center. They were also questioned about what they had witnessed that night. Now Charlie was only four years old, and questioning a child that young is difficult. But what he told the professionals was disturbing. Here is a little clip of that interview.
46:20 Speaker 06 Pretty, huh? Okay, Charlie. How old are you today?
46:25 Speaker 07 Four.
46:26 Speaker 06 You're four?
46:31 Speaker 06 Okay, and it's Charlie and your last name is Powell? Is that right?
46:38 Speaker 06 And we're at the South Valley Children's Justice Center. Well, why don't you tell me what you were doing today? Try to remember everything you did today.
46:51 Speaker 07 I was playing and I didn't eat today.
46:58 Speaker 06 You were playing and you did what?
47:00 Speaker 07 I didn't eat today.
47:02 Speaker 06 You didn't eat? Huh? No? Are you hungry?
47:07 Speaker 07 Yeah.
47:08 Speaker 06 Yes? Did you eat some breakfast?
47:12 Speaker 07 No.
47:12 Speaker 06 No?
47:16 Speaker 06 Okay, well, what did you do last night?
47:20 Speaker 07 Um...
47:21 Speaker 06 Before you went to bed?
47:24 Speaker 07 Go camping.
47:25 Speaker 06 You went camping? Tell me about camping.
47:31 Speaker 07 Camping is one where you have smores.
47:35 Speaker 06 Where you have smores? Yeah.
47:37 Speaker 07 And smores starts with marshmallows and graham crackers and chocolate and another graham cracker.
47:47 Speaker 06 The smores have marshmallows, graham crackers, and chocolate, and another graham cracker?
47:54 Speaker 07 Yeah.
47:54 Speaker 06 I see. So you had smores yesterday, last night?
47:58 Speaker 07 Yeah.
47:59 Speaker 06 Where were you camping at?
48:00 Speaker 07 Um, I was camping at Dinosaur National Park.
48:06 Speaker 06 Dinosaur Park?
48:08 Speaker 07 Not Dinosaur National Park.
48:11 Speaker 06 Dinosaur National Park? Who were you camping with?
48:16 Speaker 07 Um, my dad and my mom and my, my little brother.
48:23 Speaker 06 Dad, your mom, and your brother?
48:26 Speaker 07 Yeah.
48:28 Speaker 06 Did you sleep over there?
48:30 Speaker 07 Yeah.
48:31 Speaker 06 Yeah? Tell me what you did with, um, your dad while you were camping? Anything fun?
48:38 Speaker 07 Yeah, um, while I was camping, um, I saw some flowers that made them look pretty.
48:50 Speaker 06 They did it?
48:51 Speaker 07 Yeah.
48:55 Speaker 06 Okay, so Charlie, when you guys came home from camping, who came home with you?
49:00 Speaker 07 My dad.
49:02 Speaker 06 And?
49:04 Speaker 07 And my mom stayed at Dinosaur National Park.
49:08 Speaker 06 Your mom stayed there?
49:10 Speaker 07 Yeah.
49:11 Speaker 06 Your mom stayed at the park?
49:13 Speaker 07 Yeah.
49:14 Speaker 06 Where did she stay at the park?
49:16 Speaker 07 Um, she...
49:18 Speaker 06 Do you know where?
49:19 Speaker 07 She stayed at Dinosaur National Park.
49:24 Speaker 06 Do you know where at the park? No?
49:27 Speaker 07 No. She... My mom stayed where the crystals are.
49:33 Speaker 06 Where what are?
49:34 Speaker 07 Where the crystals are.
49:37 Speaker 06 The crystals? Crystals?
49:39 Speaker 07 Yeah.
49:39 Speaker 06 Is that what you're saying? Crystals?
49:41 Speaker 07 Yeah.
49:42 Speaker 06 Your mom stayed where the crystals are?
49:45 Speaker 07 Yeah.
49:45 Speaker 06 Is that what you said?
49:46 Speaker 07 Yeah.
49:48 Speaker 06 Okay.
49:50 Speaker 07 Crystals, crystals are of things that grow in rocks that are colorful.
50:01 Speaker 06 Okay.
50:05 Speaker 06 So why did mommy stay?
50:07 Speaker 07 Cause there was flowers and crystals that was colorful.
50:13 Speaker 06 That was what?
50:14 Speaker 07 That was colorful.
50:16 Speaker 06 Colorful?
50:17 Speaker 07 Yeah.
50:17 Speaker 06 Yeah?
50:20 Speaker 07 And at night, my mom stayed asleep where the flowers and the crystals glow.
50:32 Speaker 06 Your mom was gonna sleep where the flowers and the crystals glow?
50:35 Speaker 07 No, no, grow.
50:37 Speaker 06 Grow, okay.
50:40 Colin Brown? With this information, detectives started putting together a list of places they wanted to search. Charlie mentioned Dinosaur National Park, and Josh was known to take the boys to a place called Dinosaur National Monument, where they would look for geodes, which are rocks with crystals inside of them. So maybe that's what Charlie was talking about when he mentioned crystals. The only issue was that detectives had already been out to the Pony Express. To see if there were any signs of Susan. They obviously didn't find her. However, they did run into a farmer who said that he remembered seeing Josh in his blue minivan. So it seemed like he had been there. Now, the Dinosaur National Monument is about three hours away from the Pony Express. So it didn't seem likely that they went there.
51:22 Colin Brown? But regardless of where they went, according to Charlie, their mommy came out there with them. And when it was time to go, mommy stayed out there. Detectives would confront Josh about this.
51:34 Speaker 05 One of our detectives just interviewed your children. And your children are telling our detectives that mom went with you guys last night.
51:45 Speaker 05 And that she didn't come back.
51:48 Speaker 04 She did not go with us.
51:50 Speaker 05 Okay, well, with that, just getting that information.
51:56 Speaker 05 You're not gonna go anywhere. I'm not gonna let you leave. I'm gonna detain you. You sit right here. If you want a lawyer and you want to talk, or you want to change your mind, and talk, or take a CBSA test,
52:10 Speaker 05 then we can do those things, but...
52:16 Speaker 04 What the hell was that like? They know that she didn't go with us?
52:22 Colin Brown? But technically, Josh was allowed to leave. They still didn't have enough to place him under arrest, so they eventually told him that if he wanted to be questioned with his lawyer, then they can make that happen. But by that point, Josh decided the interview was over. He wanted to leave the police station, but they were going through his vehicle there, so they told him he'd have to wait until they finished their search. They also told him that they needed to look through his cellphone. Josh handed it over to them, but somehow, he was able to secretly remove the SIM card without them knowing.
52:54 Courtney Brown? Now for a minute, let's go over everything that was found in the house on West Sarah Circle. Unfortunately, because they didn't get a search warrant that first day, Josh had been cleaning the house. Neighbors and his own family witnessed him doing so, but nonetheless, they began their search. We already talked about how Susan's purse, ID, and credit cards were found in the home. And the idea of her running away without those things just didn't seem plausible. Back at the police station, Josh had tried to convince the detectives that Susan was suicidal. But when they made their way through the home, they found Susan's calendar, which was full of upcoming events she was excited for.
53:38 Courtney Brown? And according to the people that knew her, Susan wouldn't have taken her own life. Now as for the physical evidence within the home, there wasn't much. But investigators really wanted to look in the area where those fans were pointed, on the love seat and the carpet. To the naked eye, there wasn't anything to see. Josh had already admitted to cleaning it. But when crime scene investigators sprayed the area down, they found tiny droplets of blood. Now it definitely wasn't the kind of blood you would see with blunt force trauma. But they did say that it almost looked like someone had coughed up the blood.
54:21 Courtney Brown? So they took that evidence for further testing to see whose blood it was. And when they looked through the rest of the home, it was pretty clean. There was no indication that someone had been murdered there. But a big speculation was that Josh had possibly poisoned Susan. In some cases, poisoning can cause people to cough up blood. And remember how just hours before she disappeared, Josh had made those pancakes? Everyone ate them, including Susan's friend, Giovanna. But authorities were wondering, what if Josh poisoned Susan's?
54:57 Courtney Brown? Shortly after she ate them, Susan even got really tired and excused herself so she could go take a nap. Even further, many of Susan's friends said that in the weeks before her death, Susan was constantly nauseous. So much so, she thought she was pregnant. But when she took a pregnancy test, it came back negative. So there was speculation that Josh had been poisoning her, and what if this time, it worked? Investigators went through the home looking for anything that could have poisoned Susan, but they didn't find anything. If Josh did poison her, he likely got rid of that evidence as soon as he knew the police
55:42 Courtney Brown? were on to him. Now, the police also discovered huge discrepancies within Josh's story. On the day that Susan disappeared, Josh hadn't been answering any phone calls from their worried loved ones. The first call he answered was from Susan's friend, Giovanna. Now on that call, Josh told her he was near the Pony Express, hours away, but phone records would prove he was lying. Josh was actually just a few blocks away, right there in town, but still, it would take him hours to finally come back home. After hanging up the phone with Giovanna, Josh just drove around aimlessly with Charlie
56:26 Courtney Brown? and Brayden in the backseat. He also left Susan the following voicemail.
56:31 Speaker 03 Hello, Susan. We are on our way back and, um, I can't believe that somehow my brain missed the day. I thought today was Sunday. Um, that was really, really stupid, but, um...
56:49 Speaker 03 Anyway, hopefully he got to work okay and, um, of course, give me a call. We're, I guess, talking about picking you up, but let me know, cause, um, if you have plans after work or whatever. So, anyway, we ran into every conceivable problem and, anyway, it was kind of a nightmare, but, oh, well, I mean, there was some fun aspects. Alright, I'll talk to you later. Okay, bye.
57:14 Colin Brown? After this, he drove by Susan's work and left her another voicemail.
57:19 Speaker 03 Hello, I'm out here, so I'm... What? No! I'm waiting for you. So, anyway, I'm, um, in front. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.
57:31 Colin Brown? Now, as we know, Josh told police that he had to borrow Susan's cellphone, which is why he had it with him that day. But why would Josh call Susan's cellphone if it's in the car with him? It seemed as if he was trying to cover his tracks, make it look like he was just an innocent father, coming home from a camping trip and checking up on his wife.
57:49 Courtney Brown? Back at the police station, investigators were also searching through Josh's car. And this time, they found a trash bag filled with burned items, like metal, sheet rock, and wires. It seemed as though Josh was trying to destroy evidence. But again, there was nothing incriminating enough to place him under arrest. However, they did secretly put a tracker on his car. If Josh had dumped Susan's body somewhere, they were hoping that with the building pressure, he would go back to the dump site. But, that wouldn't be the case. As it turns out, as investigators were searching his car, Josh left the police
58:32 Courtney Brown? station. And for the next eighteen hours, Josh Powell was missing.
58:44 Colin Brown? It was later discovered that he left the police station and hopped in a taxi. He told the taxi driver to take him to the airport. It seemed as if Josh was running away. But instead of getting on a flight, he went to the airport's rental cars and rented a silver Ford Focus. However, what he did from there, no one knows. Josh went AWOL for almost an entire day. We do know that at some point, he ended up in Tremonton, Utah, where he bought a new cellphone. We also know he spent a lot of that time driving. In fact, Josh ended up putting 807 miles on his rental car. He would later tell his family that he was just driving around Salt Lake City, but who knows?
59:25 Courtney Brown? In the 18 hours that Josh Powell was missing, everyone's suspicions about him grew stronger. Of course, Charlie and Braden were looked after by their loved ones, but they couldn't believe that Josh would just up and leave without telling anyone. Especially when his wife was missing. Who does that? Now, pretty early on, Josh's father Steve was also looked into. As we know, Steve Powell had an unhealthy obsession with Susan. But phone records showed that Steve was in Washington State on the day that Susan disappeared. But, on Tuesday and Wednesday, Steve called out of work.
1:00:07 Courtney Brown? And for a time period while Josh Powell was on the run, Steve's whereabouts were unaccounted for. Some people have speculated that he met up with his son during this time. But, we don't know. Much of those 18 hours is still a mystery to this day. But finally, on Wednesday night, Josh came back home. By that point, the disappearance of Susan Powell was all over the news. So Josh was met with reporters right outside of his house. KUTV reporter Chris Jones approached him, and here is what Josh had to say.
1:00:45 Speaker 08 Hi, this is Josh. Can I ask you something? Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah, how you doing? I have something to tell you. Um, do you mind if I? Well, I've been trying to figure out what I can do so I don't sit idle.
1:01:02 Speaker 08 I'm dealing with this repeatedly.
1:01:05 Speaker 09 Sure.
1:01:06 Speaker 08 Um, I was just gonna go in and get my kids.
1:01:11 Speaker 08 You know, they're, you know.
1:01:12 Speaker 09 How are they doing?
1:01:13 Speaker 08 Um, they've been doing good. Uh, as far as I can tell.
1:01:18 Speaker 09 How about you? I mean, I know this is difficult. How are you doing? I mean, this is such, there's gotta be a lot of emotions going on for you.
1:01:24 Speaker 08 Um, you know, people have been really helpful and supportive. So it's been, uh, it's been really hard, but yeah, you just keep going.
1:01:33 Speaker 09 What can you tell us about that night? I mean, um, you know, we understand you went camping and I came home. Tell us what, what happened that night.
1:01:39 Speaker 08 Yeah, I just, a lot of times I just go camping with my boys, you know, not anything big. I just go overnight and then we do smores and stuff like that. And so I just went with the boys. I was planning to do some smores in the morning and, um, and then we got home, um,
1:02:00 Speaker 08 on the way home, I pointed out that people were worried about us. We were missing.
1:02:06 Speaker 09 And, and the report is, is that neither you nor your wife called in sick. Make sure that that's not usual. What, what are your thoughts on that?
1:02:13 Speaker 08 Um, no, it's, it's not usual. I, no.
1:02:21 Speaker 08 I guess why didn't you call them too? You know, I, I didn't, uh, I was somehow thinking that it was Sunday. I didn't go to church and I, I just missed the day and
1:02:33 Speaker 08 go come back Sunday.
1:02:34 Speaker 09 So you got confused by the wrong, what day it was?
1:02:36 Speaker 08 Yeah.
1:02:37 Speaker 09 Um, now, can we understand there's nothing, uh, there's, it looks like no phone call in the home. It appears that your wife left her, um, cell phone in purse. I mean, did any, I mean, does she, does she go off to sort of maybe clear her head? I mean, do you have any idea where she could be?
1:02:49 Speaker 08 No, she, I mean, she, she'll leave during the day and, but she's never left overnight.
1:02:58 Speaker 09 Does she have any enemies that you can think of or would?
1:03:01 Speaker 08 I don't, I can't think of anyone.
1:03:03 Speaker 09 No, a lot of talk on the internet, I mean, a lot, obviously in cases like this, you know this, that, that instantly talk about the husband, they think that he's the suspect, that he did something. Is there anything you want to say to address that?
1:03:12 Speaker 08 I, I didn't do anything, I mean, I don't know where she's at, I don't even know where to start looking.
1:03:21 Speaker 09 And the boys, I mean, dude, how you, what are you telling them about?
1:03:26 Speaker 08 Can I tell them anything? Have you ever heard stuff? I haven't, I mean, at the time it all started, I, I was already, uh, you know, I was already late and went to bed.
1:03:41 Speaker 09 We just been active ever since? And your wife laid down that night, right? She wasn't feeling well, is that, and then you just, and that's when you, you went camping? Where, where'd you guys go camping?
1:03:47 Speaker 08 Well, she, she wasn't not feeling well, she was feeling well. Um, she just went to bed.
1:03:51 Speaker 09 About five ish ish, I don't know, we heard, we heard five, I don't know if that's true, you would know better than we do.
1:03:55 Speaker 08 No, she went to bed that night, um.
1:03:58 Speaker 09 And what time did you go camping, what'd you say?
1:04:00 Speaker 08 Um, I, you know, I, I got out to a pretty late start.
1:04:03 Speaker 09 Nine ish?
1:04:05 Speaker 08 No, it was, it's later. Um, basically, um, I'm just trying to, trying to figure out what I can do. And we'll try to find her, and try to take care of life in general.
1:04:22 Speaker 09 Okay. What do, what do you guys camp?
1:04:24 Speaker 08 Um, we went down south to the, to some trails down there.
1:04:28 Speaker 09 Did you mean like my lab or anything?
1:04:29 Speaker 08 No, no, we, um, we actually just went down to the, the Pony Express.
1:04:36 Speaker 09 Pony Express trail?
1:04:37 Speaker 08 Yeah.
1:04:37 Speaker 09 Okay, they camp around down there, right?
1:04:39 Speaker 08 I, yeah, I guess I'd better go.
1:04:43 Speaker 09 Okay, cool. If you'd like to, we appreciate your contact.
1:04:44 Speaker 08 Thank you, thank you.
1:04:51 Colin Brown? Now, around this time, Susan's friends, including Kersy Hallowell, were doing everything they could to help. A Facebook group called Friends and Family of Susan Powell was created, and over 1,200 people joined. In it, Kersy wrote, "Susan, I love you so much. I wish you could know how hard we are working for you. My heart has a huge hole in it. Your dad is being so strong and awesome. We've mobilized the internet, and the West Valley PD is using everything they can to find you. We will not give up until we find you. Don't give up. I pray all day that angels will guide you and watch over you." She also created an organization called Service for Susan, where people from all around volunteered in Susan's name. All of the money raised was sent to women's shelters.
1:05:34 Colin Brown? Meanwhile, investigators were still keeping a close eye on Josh. And that weekend, he decided to leave town again. This time, they could follow him due to that tracker on his car. And to their surprise, he actually went to a strip club in Nevada, just days after his wife disappeared. Now, from the very beginning, investigators suspected that Josh had something to do with Susan's disappearance. But after speaking with Susan's coworker, Linda Bagley, they were more sure than ever. Like we mentioned in Part 1, Susan had been afraid that Josh was going to kill her. She was so sure of it, she even wrote a last will and testament that she kept at her work. She made sure that Linda knew where the letter was, and if anything happened to her, Linda was to tell the police.
1:06:19 Colin Brown? So when Susan turned up missing, that's exactly what she did. Soon enough, the police opened the letter, and what they read sent a chill down their spine.
1:06:29 Courtney Brown? I want it documented somewhere that there is extreme turmoil in our marriage. He has threatened to skip the country and told me straight out, "If we divorce, there will be no lawyers, only a mediator, and I will ruin you. Your life will be over, and the boys will not grow up with a mom and dad. If something happens to me, please talk to my sister-in-law Jenny Graves, my friend Kiersey Helloel, check my blogs on my MySpace, check my work desk, talk to my friends, coworkers, and family. It is an open fact that we have life insurance policies over 1 million if we die in the next four years. Coworkers, family, and friends hear me say this occasionally,
1:07:13 Courtney Brown? but if I die, it may not be an accident, even if it looks like one. Take care of my boys. I want my parents Judy and Chuck Cox very involved and in charge of their lives. I love my boys. I live for them, and I choose not to cheat or do drugs because I wouldn't want to risk losing them. I love you Charlie and Brayden. And I'm so sorry you've seen how wrong and messed up our marriage is. I would never leave you."
1:07:42 Colin Brown? Investigators also found that DVD that Susan had made where she went through her home recording her assets. They even scheduled him for a polygraph, but of course, he didn't show up for it. More than anything, the police wanted to arrest Josh right there and then. But they also knew that they needed to find Susan's body. Investigators had learned about Josh's recent purchases in the weeks before Susan's disappearance. Specifically, that tree wrap and the torch that could cut through steel. They feared that Josh had dismembered Susan's body and discarded it around the Pony Express Trail. However, after searching the area, they found nothing. But some of Susan's friends had told police about some strange comments Josh had made months earlier.
1:08:24 Colin Brown? Apparently, they had all been talking about a recent crime show, and Josh told the group that if he were to murder anyone, he would dump the body down and abandon mine. So investigators planned to start searching those.
1:08:37 Courtney Brown? Soon enough, Susan had been missing for a whole week. And Josh's strange behavior continued. He even reached out to Susan's chiropractor, and he canceled all of her future appointments. Then, less than two weeks into Susan's disappearance, Josh packed up he and the boys' things, and they moved in with his father, 12 hours away in Washington. Josh told Susan's friends that he had been fired from his job and wouldn't be able to afford the mortgage on the house. But when the people of Puyallup learned that Josh Powell was living there, the community was angry.
1:09:20 Courtney Brown? A reporter even went to their home for an interview, but Steve Powell slammed the door in their face and said that his son was being vilified. But the community wanted to send him a message. In fact, someone in Steve Powell's neighborhood started going door to door, asking if everyone could tie purple ribbons, Susan's favorite color, around their trees.
1:09:47 Courtney Brown? And they did more than just that.
1:09:51 Courtney Brown? Soon enough, the neighborhood was filled with purple ribbons, streamers, and even pictures of Susan. One neighbor said, quote, "We're not going to let him forget." Now, while in Puyallup, Josh started doing everything he could to make himself look better. He and the boys even started going to church, which was strange because Josh hated going to church. He introduced himself to the bishop as the man with the missing wife. Charlie and Brayden were also going to Sunday School there. And according to one of the Sunday School teachers, Charlie had been misbehaving. Now, she didn't know his backstory, and she told Charlie,
1:10:36 Courtney Brown? "If you don't follow instructions, I'm going to tell your mommy and daddy." To which Charlie responded, "My mommy's dead."
1:10:49 Colin Brown? Hey, everyone. Colin here. Just a very quick interruption. If you could, please take five, 10 seconds out of your day. And if you haven't already left us a five-star review on whatever platform you're listening to the show on, please just take a moment today and go do that for Courtney and I. Good reviews can help boost the show, help us to get discovered by other listeners. And also, we love hearing from everybody and seeing your reviews and seeing your kind words. We don't really have a place to interact with y'all. So on the reviews is one place where we just love hearing from everybody that listens. But anyways, let's get back to the story. Just wanted to drop that reminder in here and thank you to everyone who's done it before and who's going to do it now.
1:11:32 Courtney Brown? Now, in the two weeks after Susan's disappearance, her loved ones decided to hold a candlelight vigil in Washington. By that point, investigators had listed Josh as a person of interest. So everyone was shocked to see that he showed up. The entire time he stood at the vigil, people from their community whispered and gave him dirty looks. And while there, reporter Shamari Stone would confront Josh. Here is a clip from that night.
1:12:06 Speaker 10 We are deeply touched by the good wishes that we have received.
1:12:10 Speaker 11 Chuck Cox holds a candle at his daughter Susan Powell's vigil. The worried father surrounded by dozens of relatives and friends. Susan was reported missing in Utah two weeks ago.
1:12:20 Speaker 12 Where is she? Where's my daughter? I... Where could she be?
1:12:27 Speaker 12 When will something break?
1:12:28 Speaker 11 Cox and many people in the somber crowd were surprised when Susan's husband Josh showed up. He's a person of interest in his wife's disappearance. He's in town to celebrate Christmas with relatives on his side of the family.
1:12:40 Speaker 12 We've had no contact with Josh at all. We don't know what his plans are. I didn't know he was even coming up here.
1:12:47 Speaker 11 Police say he told them the last time he saw Susan was around midnight on December 7th, when he took their two sons camping in the cold. He brought one of the boys to the vigil and strangely enough, Cox wasn't allowed to see his grandson. A group shielded the child and Josh Powell from everyone's view.
1:13:04 Speaker 12 See the legs there? I got a peek, Charlie. He's looking pretty good. Looks like he doesn't have a clue what's going on.
1:13:10 Speaker 11 Moments later, Powell tried to sneak away and dodge our cameras. I caught up with him near some bushes. Police say you're a person of interest, Josh. Do you have anything to say? Why did you take your kids camping in sub-freezing temperatures? What do you think happened to Susan?
1:13:25 Speaker 11 Do you have anything to say to your supporters?
1:13:32 Speaker 11 While he remained silent, the crowd sings Silent Night, Susan's favorite song.
1:13:44 Speaker 12 We're hopeful. We're hopeful and how long is this gonna take? I know we've been in contact with the West Valley Police and we're doing everything I can possibly do to get people looking for my daughter and getting leads.
1:14:04 Colin Brown? During this time, the search for Susan was still underway. During Charlie's interview with police, he mentioned that his mom slept where the flowers and crystals grow. He also mentioned the Dinosaur National Monument. So investigators focused their searches there. But sadly, they again came up with nothing. All the while, detectives were still keeping a close eye on Josh. To their surprise, they learned almost immediately after Susan went missing, he withdrew her retirement money. And because he was power of attorney over her accounts, he was allowed to.
1:14:37 Courtney Brown? Now in last week's episode, we briefly mentioned a car wreck that Josh was in months before Susan's disappearance. He was rear-ended, but it was a pretty minor accident. The airbags didn't deploy. But afterwards, Josh went out and bought that expensive massage chair for his back. Well, months later, in the weeks after Susan's disappearance, Josh went to a physical therapist and was diagnosed with a rotator cuff injury. He blamed it on the car accident he had been in. But Josh never complained about his shoulder hurting until after Susan went missing. Many people speculated that he got the injury while moving Susan's body.
1:15:21 Courtney Brown? And some other people speculated that Josh didn't act alone. When the details came out about Josh's father, Steve Powell, and his obsession with Susan, detectives wanted to speak with him. And Steve actually admitted that he was in love with Susan. But of course, he said he had nothing to do with her disappearance. And as we mentioned, phone records showed he was in Washington for the majority of that week.
1:15:51 Courtney Brown? Now in late December, investigators would finally get the results back from those droplets of blood that were found in the living room. And just like they suspected, it was Susan's blood. For Susan's family, this was the confirmation they needed.
1:16:08 Courtney Brown? From the very beginning, they knew that Josh had done something with her, but now, they were sure of it. And strangely enough, despite all of the concerning things surrounding Josh Powell, his family was still supporting him. Well, everyone except his sister Jennifer. From that very first day that Susan went missing, she knew that Josh was responsible for her disappearance. She was so convinced of it, she even asked detectives if she could wear a wire and ask her brother some questions. So in early 2010, they would do just that.
1:16:49 Colin Brown? At the time, the Powell family had all got together at Steve Powell's house to have dinner. Jennifer, wearing a wire, and her husband, arrived at the home trying to act as normal as they possibly could. During dinner, they kept the conversation civil. But afterwards, she pulled her brother aside. Courtney and I are going to reenact how their conversation went. Jennifer urged her brother to take a plea deal, saying, If you go to jail, you won't be able to see your boys for years. And Josh said, Don't be ridiculous.
1:17:18 Courtney Brown? Where were you going in that rental car during those eighteen hours?
1:17:22 Colin Brown? Nowhere.
1:17:23 Courtney Brown? So you just drove around all over the place?
1:17:27 Colin Brown? Yeah, there's no plea bargain. My attorney has told me just don't talk about it, about specifics.
1:17:32 Courtney Brown? What happened? What happened that night?
1:17:35 Colin Brown? I already sat down with the cops and told them everything.
1:17:38 Courtney Brown? You haven't told me anything. I asked, and you haven't said anything to me. Why won't you tell me? Why won't you put my mind at ease and tell me what happened? I'm your sister. Susan was my friend. She is your wife for crying out loud. What happened?
1:17:58 Colin Brown? I don't know what happened.
1:18:00 Courtney Brown? Well, what did you do? What did you do that night? What do you know? It just doesn't seem like you care at all.
1:18:09 Colin Brown? I can't believe you'd say that.
1:18:12 Courtney Brown? You walked away.
1:18:13 Colin Brown? What do you mean, walk away?
1:18:15 Courtney Brown? You're trying to get rid of your house.
1:18:18 Colin Brown? The house I can't afford.
1:18:22 Courtney Brown? Now it's here where their father Steve walked into the room and he told Jennifer to leave. He even started cussing at his daughter, telling her "You are a goddamn fucking bitch is what you are. To talk about your brother and my son that way and make things up?" Tensions were clearly rising. So Jennifer's husband Kirk stepped in, telling Steve to back off. Josh's younger sister Alina started yelling at Jennifer too. At some point, Jennifer brought up the fact that Steve had made passes at Susan. And Alina chimed in screaming, "She's a lying sack of shit, talking about Susan."
1:19:07 Courtney Brown? And from there Jennifer had had enough, so she and her husband left. She couldn't believe that her family was defending Josh when he was so clearly guilty. On the drive home, Jennifer sobbed as she told her husband, "My God, he killed her."
1:19:29 Colin Brown? In the early days, Josh tried to act like a concerned husband. He even started going to church, but that was pretty short-lived. In fact, about a month later, Josh quit going and he started telling people, "I don't believe in God anymore." By this point, Josh also refused to cooperate with investigators. With the Powells being 12 hours away in Washington, it complicated their investigation. In March 2010, the police got a warrant to do a welfare check on Charlie and Brayden. They also attempted to interview Charlie again, but this time around, it was clear that Josh had been coaching him. You're going to hear him talk about John. John is Josh's brother.
1:20:08 Speaker 06 Do you remember you went camping?
1:20:13 Speaker 06 Yeah?
1:20:14 Speaker 07 But we can't do that over again.
1:20:17 Speaker 06 No? How come?
1:20:19 Speaker 07 I guess it's not good for us.
1:20:22 Speaker 06 Why?
1:20:25 Speaker 06 Why isn't camping good for you?
1:20:28 Speaker 07 Um, camping is good for me, but um, we have to find my camping stuff to go camping.
1:20:38 Speaker 06 You have to find your camping stuff to go camping again?
1:20:42 Speaker 07 Yeah.
1:20:42 Speaker 06 Yeah?
1:20:46 Speaker 06 Charlie, has anybody talked to you about your mom?
1:20:50 Speaker 07 Uh-uh.
1:20:51 Speaker 06 No?
1:20:53 Speaker 07 I not know where she is. She's got lost somewhere.
1:20:58 Speaker 06 She got lost somewhere? Tell me about your mom getting lost.
1:21:05 Speaker 07 I not know where she got lost. I didn't saw where she got lost.
1:21:12 Speaker 06 You didn't see where she got lost? Where was the last place you did see her?
1:21:19 Speaker 07 John knows.
1:21:21 Speaker 06 John does?
1:21:23 Speaker 07 Yeah, best that she, best he run about uncle's and that that lives with my family.
1:21:31 Speaker 06 He's, he lives with your family? And he knows what?
1:21:38 Speaker 07 And he, he went where Susan went.
1:21:42 Speaker 06 He did?
1:21:45 Speaker 06 And where, do you know where Susan went?
1:21:49 Speaker 07 No, John does. We, we can't talk about Susan or company. I, I, I always keep things as secret.
1:22:01 Speaker 06 Well, when we talk about your mom, we, we can't keep that a secret 'cause your mom would want us to talk about, would want us to talk about her. Who told you you can't talk about your mom?
1:22:13 Speaker 07 No, I, I, I best it my, my brain told me.
1:22:19 Speaker 06 Your brain to, told you that? Well, your brain needs to tell you that it's okay to talk about your mom 'cause we wanna find your mom. So, in order to find your mom, we gotta talk about it.
1:22:32 Speaker 07 Um, um, we, we are doing blessings.
1:22:37 Speaker 06 You're doing blessings?
1:22:38 Speaker 07 Yeah, but then stuff, um, best it's okay that I keep a secret 'cause we are doing blessings.
1:22:48 Speaker 06 You know what? It's not okay to keep secrets if...
1:22:54 Speaker 06 If it will help us find your mom. So we need to talk about those secrets. Did somebody tell you to keep a secret?
1:23:01 Speaker 07 No, only my brain did.
1:23:04 Speaker 06 Your brain did? What else did your brain tell you about the secret?
1:23:11 Speaker 07 My, my brain, my brain won't, um, tell me to say that.
1:23:18 Speaker 06 Your brain won't tell you to say it? Do you, uh...
1:23:26 Speaker 06 Can you do... Charlie, think really hard about the last time that you saw your mommy, okay? And tell me everything about the last time you saw your mommy.
1:23:37 Speaker 07 I, I didn't saw her last time.
1:23:45 Speaker 06 You didn't? Do you remember saying you went camping and your mommy went camping, but your mommy stayed?
1:23:54 Speaker 06 Do you remember saying that?
1:24:01 Speaker 07 No, no, no, I not know where she got lost. John didn't tell me where she got lost.
1:24:11 Speaker 06 John didn't tell you?
1:24:15 Colin Brown? Eventually, Charlie said his mom went to the North Pole.
1:24:20 Speaker 07 But, but she, but, but she, but she didn't tell me to find her in, in the North Pole.
1:24:29 Speaker 06 She didn't tell you where to find her in the North Pole?
1:24:32 Speaker 07 Yeah.
1:24:33 Speaker 06 Did you hear anybody at home talk about where your mommy is?
1:24:41 Speaker 06 Huh?
1:24:43 Speaker 07 But, but, but I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I not know. They don't ask me to, um, to talk about them these days. We can't talk about her.
1:25:03 Speaker 06 Why can't you talk about her? Who said?
1:25:05 Speaker 07 Um, I, um, I, I, I think, I think she is in the North Pole. That's I, but...
1:25:15 Speaker 07 She, she, she didn't tell me there was a party in the North Pole. She didn't tell you there was a party in the North Pole? Uh, there was really a party in the North Pole. Yeah. This one went there too, but they can't find her way back. But, but he, but he won't come back. She won't come back unless it stops snowing. Who told you that?
1:25:47 Speaker 07 Um, Owen.
1:25:51 Speaker 07 That's my dad did. Your dad told you that?
1:25:56 Colin Brown? In this next part, Charlie starts talking about his Aunt Jennifer and her husband Kirk. By that point, they were estranged, and it's obvious that Charlie had been overhearing what his family was saying about them.
1:26:08 Speaker 07 I bet on they want their, um, ass to die. Who dead? Um, Jenny and Kirk. Jenny and Kirk? Yeah, I don't listen to them.
1:26:24 Colin Brown? Now, investigators didn't get very far in their interview with him. But on the drive back to their home, Charlie said something that caught their attention. In the backseat of the car, he said, "I'm just gonna tell them I was with friends." They asked him what he meant, and he said, "I'm just going to tell my dad that I was with my friends." It seemed as if he was nervous that his dad would be mad at him for talking with the police. And sure enough, when Charlie got back home, one of the detectives heard him tell Josh, "I was with my friends."
1:26:56 Courtney Brown? The investigators in Utah felt like they had reached a dead end. But they would continue searching for Susan. In April of 2010, they started searching the west deserts of Utah. Josh had made comments about how if he were to ever kill someone, he would dump their body in an abandoned mine shaft. So, they started searching them. But sadly, their searches came up empty. Eventually, the FBI would even contact Josh's father, Steve, for an interview. It seemed as though they believed he knew more than he was letting on. And when they sat down with him, Steve admitted that Josh's camping story was very suspicious. But strangely enough,
1:27:42 Courtney Brown? it also seemed like he truly believed Susan was still alive. Later on, they would find journal entries of his that read the following:
1:27:52 Colin Brown? I wonder if Susan is missing me. I have these images of Susan in mind, sunbathing and strolling on new beaches in Brazil, letting everyone and anyone see what I've wanted to see. I've also fantasized about being at a new resort with her.
1:28:06 Courtney Brown? On May 17th, Steve wrote this in his journal:
1:28:11 Colin Brown? Even if she's not into some deep doo-doo, she really no longer has a home. Josh rented out their house. He really doesn't want her back and doesn't want her to be around the boys. I would take her to my home and bedroom in a minute, but I would have to deal with some very strong objections from my kids. I'm sure none of them would be thrilled to have her shack up with me and become by default the queen of the house.
1:28:34 Courtney Brown? Based on these journal entries, it seemed as though Steve believed that Susan ran away. And maybe in his own sick mind, he thought she did it because Susan wanted to be with him. Or maybe he wrote these expecting the authorities to read it. We don't know. In another journal entry, Steve talked about the searches going on and how Charlie had been listening in on their adult conversations. The journal entry read this:
1:29:03 Colin Brown? This afternoon Charlie commented that mommy is lost in the desert. Josh and Michael were also present, so we all heard it. I asked him where he had heard that. He said he had made it up in his own mind. Michael said we've been talking too much about that desert search that was planned for April 10th. Supposedly a couple thousand people are going to be searching in the area. Josh and the boys camped on the night of December 6th. Susan went missing the next day. We discussed that plan and made derisive comments about it. Charlie doesn't miss much.
1:29:38 Courtney Brown? Before they knew it, it had been six whole months since anyone had seen Susan alive. Steve and Josh Powell were still trying to convince everyone that Susan had run away. But everyone that knew her knew that she wouldn't have left her children. Which is exactly why in her last will and testament, she wrote, "Charlie and Braden, I would never leave you." And sadly, with all of the chaos and turmoil going on within their family, it seemed as though it started having an effect on Charlie and Braden. In 2010, Charlie started going to kindergarten at Carson Elementary School.
1:30:19 Courtney Brown? But according to his teachers, he would say things like, "God isn't real, and Mormons are bad and they need to be killed." He was clearly just repeating what his father was saying. On another day, Charlie told his teachers that the best way to kill a bear is to dig a hole, put the bear inside, and then throw rocks at it. Then once it's dead, he said, "Cover the hole with a tree and plant raspberry bushes over top." In another instance, Charlie was trying to kill a bird, and he told his teachers that he wanted to kill it by burying it with sticks, rocks, and flowers, so no one would touch it.
1:31:01 Courtney Brown? Many people wondered if that's what Josh did to Susan.
1:31:05 Colin Brown? Now, I know these behaviors and comments are concerning, but just imagine all that Charlie had gone through, all the things that he possibly saw. He was just clearly acting out, but according to his teachers, Charlie was a good kid. They said he was smart, curious, a serious boy, and precocious. He liked to write stories and draw pictures, but he often played by himself. He didn't get along well with the other kids. At one point, a classmate said something about Charlie's mom being dead. Charlie screamed, "My mom isn't dead! She's away from her parents because they abused her!" His teacher pulled Charlie aside and asked if he was okay, and Charlie replied, "I feel a little better because I'm smart and I can figure out a way for liars like this student to go to jail for 14 years."
1:31:50 Colin Brown? During another instance, Charlie told a classmate, "I don't want you to sit by me. I'm going to come to your house at night and kill you." When asked why he said that, Charlie said that he wanted to kill that boy because he was Mormon. So, as you can see, Josh and Steve Powell had a heavy influence on Charlie. Two of the worst influences a young boy could possibly have. Now, as for Brayden, his teacher said that he was very needy. He cried a lot and had high anxiety. He always wanted to be helped. At one point in 2010, Brayden drew a picture of his family camping. He then told his teacher that his mommy was in the trunk.
1:32:29 Courtney Brown? Sadly, as time went on, investigators continued searching for Susan with no luck. When her birthday and the anniversary of her disappearance would pass, her loved ones would get together to honor Susan. Meanwhile, the Powell family was still doing everything in their power to make their grief even more difficult. In fact, Josh had made this website called SusanPowell.org. He actually got the domain for it back in 2006, years before Susan went missing. But after her disappearance, he started posting on it. On the homepage, there was a picture of Susan, Josh, and the boys camping in the snow.
1:33:14 Courtney Brown? It was an older picture, but it's the same thing he claimed to be doing on the night she went missing. Now, in the beginning, Josh said he created the website to help find Susan. But over time, it kind of became this disturbing blog. Someone, assuming it was either Josh or his father Steve, would upload these rants about how they believe Susan ran away with another man. They talked about how Susan was mentally unstable. Josh even said that Susan, quote, "would be chewed up like hamburger when she comes back."
1:33:51 Courtney Brown? The website talked poorly about the Mormon church, how Josh's sister Jennifer turned on them, and they also started talking about how Susan was emotionally abused when she was a child. They even threatened to post Susan's childhood journals. It was clear that Josh was trying to intimidate Susan's parents, but they had nothing to hide. And we will get into Susan's childhood journals a little later, but as you can imagine, this was incredibly disheartening for her family. And to make matters worse, they were still no closer to finding her.
1:34:29 Colin Brown? Now, by the summer of 2011, it had been a year and a half since Susan disappeared. They had exhausted all of their search efforts in Utah, and even though they still hadn't found her, they were still doing everything they could to get answers. Investigators even came up with Operation Tsunami. Now, earlier on, authorities found that in the days before Susan's disappearance, Josh had been Googling the town Eli, Nevada. So, they thought that maybe he had dumped her body there. They decided to tap Josh's phone and staged this search in the abandoned mineshafts there. They were hoping that Josh would see the news coverage of the searches and get spooked. Maybe he would then call his family and talk about where Susan's body was. But sadly, Josh didn't care at all about the searches.
1:35:14 Colin Brown? He didn't call his family members, and he didn't give up any information. Once again, authorities were back at square one.
1:35:22 Courtney Brown? With the rising tensions between the Powells and Susan's loved ones, Chuck and Judy Cox desperately wanted to have a relationship with Charlie and Brayden. They were the last piece of their daughter that they had. They loved them so much. And according to Susan's last will and testament, she wanted her parents to have custody of the boys if anything ever happened to her. But sadly, Josh wouldn't let his in-laws spend much time with the boys.
1:35:52 Courtney Brown? Many people believed that he was scared of what the kids would say when he wasn't around. Every single action that Josh Powell took was so destructive in every way. Chuck and Judy knew that Josh was behind Susan's disappearance, but there wasn't anything anyone could do about it. Without finding her body, they couldn't place him under arrest. So they were essentially stuck in this never-ending loop. And eventually, Josh even got a protective order against Susan's parents. The protective order came after an incident at Lowe's. Chuck and Judy Cox happened to be at Lowe's at the same time as Josh, Charlie, and Brayden.
1:36:35 Courtney Brown? When the boys saw their grandparents, they ran over to them in excitement, but Josh quickly stopped them. Chuck looked at him and said, "Can't we hug our grandchildren?" Josh told him, "No, you may not. Goodbye." Josh said, that Chuck then mouthed, "You're dead." Josh would later tell a judge that he feared for his life and that Susan's parents were stalking him. And sadly, the temporary restraining order was granted. Now in August of 2011, the Cox family and Susan's friends decided to hold a honk and
1:37:15 Courtney Brown? wave event near a Fred Meyer store, which happened to be right near the Powells' house. News cameras arrived to film the dozens of people with signs that read, "Honk if you remember Susan." But then, to everyone's surprise, Steve Powell actually drove up, jumped out of the car, and confronted Chuck Cox on live television.
1:37:41 Speaker 13 Camera, and I thought I could just sneak a little shot. So you said, "Oh, yeah, sneak a little shot." Yeah, I did, and I got it. Okay, that's fine. And I guess we're here, right? You're not believable. Yeah, right, right, I'm not. You are, though. Anyway, is there any other question that I can answer for anybody? I'm totally open to anything. I mean, we've got a lot of information about the Cox family and about Susan, a lot of it from her journals, a lot of it from Josh's... You know, he lived with Susan for eight years before she left. He knows a lot that is not in the journals, but the journals confirm what he knows that Susan told about her family, about her growing up.
1:38:21 Colin Brown? Steve Powell rambles on about how Susan was still alive, how she ran off with another man, and how his son was the victim in all of this.
1:38:29 Speaker 13 Why come here today? Why not? Well, I just came down here because we were going to get a picture of Chuck Cox. We believe he's in violation of a restraining order because Josh, Josh shops at this store and he is not supposed to come. Here's the restraining order. That's fine. I know it, I know it doesn't mention Fred Meyer, but he knows we shop at Fred Meyer. He knows this is our neighborhood store and that's why... So you own the neighborhood? No. We're gonna, we'll have to add this... You guys live a few miles, Josh lives a few miles apart from each other. Yeah, exactly. So you knew he was gonna be here and you came here yourself knowing that there's a restraining order? We just wanted, I wanted, we wanted to see if he was here because we wanted to be able to have something to say at the hearing on Tuesday. We're having a hearing Tuesday. We weren't going to bring this up with the media. He brought it up with the media. But you came here.
1:39:14 Speaker 13 I did come here. Yes, I did. Because I wanted to see what was going on and I wanted to... And I have one question for you. How is you coming here helping to find Susan? It isn't helping to find Susan. How is your standing at our neighborhood market helping to find Susan? People see the signs, her picture's out in the, in the media. It's been all over the media. If somebody has seen her, then they can report to the police. And you're only gonna do this. Which other stores are you doing this at Chuck? We're doing it in West Valley City. Which other stores in Puyallup other than our supermarket where we shop? This neighborhood up here is where we're doing it. I've only got a small group of, I got my family. Are you doing it at the store you shop at? I shop at this store. Are you doing it at Walmart down there? No, we, this is the corner right here. No, you're not.
1:39:59 Speaker 13 Okay, there, I rest my case. They're only doing it in the neighborhood where we live. This is not your neighborhood. They put their billboard right, they put the billboard that about Susan right outside of our neighborhood, right down here. They did their little flyer campaign in our neighborhood. They taped flyers right to the post in front of my house.
1:40:16 Speaker 10 Why would you have a hard time though with getting her picture out?
1:40:19 Speaker 13 I don't have a hard time. We've actually talked about putting a picture of, you know, a page on our website called "The 50 Faces of Susan Powell."
1:40:29 Courtney Brown? And I just feel so bad for Susan's family. Imagine having to go through the grief of losing her, and then having to deal with these monsters. From this point forward, the Powell family kept threatening to post Susan's childhood journals. They said it would show just how mentally unstable Susan was, and how she was extremely promiscuous. I guess they thought it would support their theory that she ran away. But Susan's family did not want those journals posted. They felt that it was a huge invasion of privacy. And they were right. Name one person on earth that would want their teenage journals posted for the world to read.
1:41:13 Colin Brown? Now, on August 22, Josh's sister Alina Powell sent the Associated Press seven pages of Susan's personal diary. Steve wrote in the email, "Susan is a lot more vulnerable emotionally than Chuck and Judy Cox would like people to believe." A few days later, a judge ordered that the Powells not release any more personal diary entries of Susan, and the Cox family filed a civil lawsuit against the Powells. But unbeknownst to everyone, this case was about to take a shocking and disturbing turn. On August 25, 2011, 20 detectives showed up at Steve Powell's home with a search warrant. Josh opened the door, shocked to see them. Behind Josh was his sister Alina and his brother John. Detectives told the siblings
1:41:57 Colin Brown? that they would have to wait outside while they searched the home. Alina was very uncooperative. She protested and refused to leave, but soon enough, they were all forced into the backyard as detectives descended upon the home. It was the middle of the summer, but the house didn't have AC. Charlie and Brayden were found in one of the rooms, and according to the police, they were starved for attention. They wanted the detectives to play with them. Brayden even jumped into one of the detectives' laps and showed him a book about science. The boys complained that they were hungry and thirsty, but stated that Josh ignored their requests. But as the detectives went through the home, they couldn't help but notice how cluttered it was. Going through all of that clutter would take hours,
1:42:40 Colin Brown? but what they would find was something they would never forget.
1:42:48 Courtney Brown? One of the first things police wanted to look at was Josh's computers. But when they asked Josh for the passwords, he said he couldn't remember. Now, they would eventually get into his computers, and we will talk about that more in a second. But in Josh's room, they found a list regarding Susan's disappearance. On it, Josh wrote, quote, "Throw out more theories." Now, from there, the detectives went to Steve's room. Inside was this locked filing cabinet. Once they got it open, detectives found all of these pictures of Susan that seemed to have been taken without her knowledge.
1:43:30 Courtney Brown? They were labeled Susan Powell washing her face, Susan Powell brushing her teeth, Susan Powell on stool, wearing pantyhose. In some of the images, Susan was only wearing underwear. They also found pictures of naked women with their faces cut out, and Susan's face taped over top. They found pictures and videos of Steve masturbating to images of Susan. Then, in a file titled "A Jerk-Off Session", Steve would document how long each of his orgasms lasted. Beneath that, detectives located baggies that were labeled with a bunch of Susan's things.
1:44:12 Courtney Brown? Steve had taken her bras, underwear, her shirts, and her temple garments. The garments are sacred in the Mormon church. Like we mentioned in part one, when Susan and Josh were living with Steve, he would go through her dirty laundry and take her items for his own sick desires. Detectives also found those wedding pictures of Susan and Josh, where Steve had cut Josh's face out. They found those baggies full of Susan's used tampons, toenail clippings, and cotton balls with her fingernail polish.
1:44:51 Courtney Brown? With each discovery, the detectives could not believe what they were seeing.
1:44:57 Courtney Brown? Some would later say that if you were to have looked at all of this stuff in Steve's room, then heard that Susan went missing, you would immediately think that Steve had something to do with it. But again, phone records proved that he was in Washington. Now investigators would also find around fifteen journals that were filled with thousands of entries about Susan and Steve's obsession with her. In one entry that Steve wrote before Susan went missing, he talked about how much Josh hated her. He wrote this:
1:45:34 Colin Brown? Josh hates her so much, even wishes she were dead. Even talked about it, occasionally fantasizing that she might have an accident. That worries me too, because couples who die in murder-suicide is not that rare.
1:45:47 Courtney Brown? As investigators continued digging through the mountain of disturbing things in Steve's room, they saw that he didn't just take pictures and videos of Susan. In fact, there were a number of women that Steve would secretly record out in public. But the most disturbing thing of all was a file that was titled "Neighbors." When they opened the file, detectives found all of these pictures and videos of two naked little girls aged eight and ten. The girls used to live directly next door to Steve Powell. And disturbingly, through his bedroom window, he would use his camera to zoom in and film them as they took baths.
1:46:32 Courtney Brown? He organized them with titles like "Taking Bath 1," "Taking Bath 2," "Open Window in the Back of the House." The detectives were horrified to see sixteen hundred images of these little girls. Immediately, they contacted the family that used to live there, and after looking at the photos, the girl's mother confirmed that it was her two young daughters. So soon after this, Steve Powell was placed under arrest for possession of child sexual abuse material and fourteen counts of voyeurism.
1:47:09 Courtney Brown? He would end up pleading not guilty to the charges and was held on a $200,000 cash bond. Steve would later speak to reporters and say that the stuff police found in his home was embarrassing and he wished he had moved it all before they found it. A true monster through and through.
1:47:28 Colin Brown? After going through the Powells' home, investigators described it as a house of horrors. In addition to the child sexual abuse material, there were also posters in the house that showed a woman stabbed through her vagina. Some of the porn in Steve's room was laid right out in the open. This was definitely not a home suitable for children. And after finding that Steve Powell was videoing the little girls next door, the courts decided that Charlie and Brayden did not need to live under that roof. Susan's parents, Chuck and Judy, were happy to take custody of the boys, but for the time being, they would be placed into foster care. One of the detectives at the scene would later say, "A detective called out to me, and as I turned around, I saw Brayden running for me with
1:48:12 Colin Brown? his arms reaching out and a big smile on his face. He immediately hugged me and I picked him up. He told me that he was happy to see me again. I saw Charles near the van and he went to another detective who picked him up. Charles was interested in seeing the police lights and did not want to be put down. Neither of the boys had shoes on. I then went just inside the door where I knew the shoes were kept. I saw Mr. Powell, Josh, in the garage and he glared at me, but he did not call out to Charles. Charles took no notice. Once inside, Charles helped pick out shoes for him and Brayden. Brayden was chatty and giggly. He hugged me and told me he loved me. I explained that a CPS caseworker was going to take them to a babysitter for a sleepover. Neither of the boys seemed concerned and they were never upset.
1:48:57 Colin Brown? In fact, they were quite happy to be going. They did not ask for their father or any other family member. Charles did ask if the babysitters were Mormons. I told him no and he seemed pleased." As Charlie and Brayden were talking away, curious neighbors came out of their homes to watch what was going on. According to them, Josh was angry and started repeatedly kicking the tire of his van. It was clear he was losing control. Now sadly, the investigators would later say that they wanted to arrest Josh that night as well. They had a good amount of circumstantial evidence against him. They had Susan's blood in the home that Josh had tried to clean up, Susan's cellphone that was in his possession, her handwritten note that explained if something happened to look at Josh, and they had Charlie's
1:49:41 Colin Brown? odd claim that Susan had gone camping with them but stayed where the crystals are. But sadly, they didn't think it was enough. So Josh Powell remained a free man.
1:49:53 Courtney Brown? But luckily for the Cox family, they were awarded custody of Charlie and Brayden. At the time Chuck and Judy were retired, and they immediately went to work renovating their home so it was fit for children. But something they immediately noticed was that in the almost two years since Susan's disappearance, it was clear that the boys had not been parented well. According to Chuck, they had no manners. When food was laid out, they quickly grabbed for anything they could get their hands on. It was almost like the boys had to fend for themselves while living under the Powell roof. The boys also didn't have bedtimes, and they told their
1:50:33 Courtney Brown? grandparents that they would often sleep with their dad completely naked. More than anything, Chuck and Judy were just happy to have the boys under their roof. But of course, Josh Powell would fight to get them back. He told the judge that he did not want his children going to church. So while Chuck and Judy went to church every Sunday, Josh was given a three-hour visitation with the boys. The judge also urged him to move out of his father's home, as it clearly wasn't a good place for children. So Josh ended up renting a house in Graham, Washington.
1:51:11 Colin Brown? Around this time, he was doing everything he could to look like a good father. He got his entire family to write letters to the judge on why Charlie and Braden should live with him instead of Chuck and Judy. He also agreed to attend counseling sessions with his sons. But his behavior during those sessions was bizarre. During their first one, Josh told Charlie and Braden that their grandpa was in trouble because of the Mormon police, and that Mormon police wanted to arrest him as well. Josh also spoke poorly about Susan's parents in front of the boys during these counseling sessions. And if Josh was saying this in front of a counselor, there's no telling what he was saying to the boys behind closed doors. In another session, Charlie was asked to draw a picture. He wanted him to draw a happy memory.
1:51:55 Colin Brown? Charlie drew three people, two were standing by each other with big smiles on their faces. The other person was on the ground, and it looked like they were dead. Disturbingly, there was one instance at the Cox's home where Charlie had put some mud into an outlet. Chuck asked him why he was doing that, and Charlie said, "My daddy told me to." "What do you mean?" they asked. Charlie replied, "Daddy told me to break things."
1:52:20 Courtney Brown? Now luckily, the more time that Charlie and Braden spent away from their father, the more improvements they made. They behaved better, they had more manners, a good routine. And according to the boys' teachers, they seemed a lot happier. The social worker in charge of their case thought that it was in the boys' best interest to stay in the custody of their grandparents. They did give Josh two to three supervised visits a week. Josh was very unhappy with this arrangement, and he was going to do everything in his power to change that. Now in January of 2012, Charlie and Braden's cousin had come over to the Cox's home.
1:53:03 Courtney Brown? And while playing, Braden accidentally got kicked in the head. Apparently their cousin was spinning Charlie around, Braden walked too close and was kicked.
1:53:14 Courtney Brown? He ended up having a knot on his head, and just to be safe, Chuck and Judy took him to the ER. They were so relieved that he didn't have any significant injuries. But unfortunately, a week later, Brayden would be taken to the ER again after putting his foot into a pot of hot water. When Josh Powell found out about these incidents, he demanded that Charlie and Brayden be taken from Chuck and Judy. However, the social workers proved that both injuries were simply accidents.
1:53:49 Colin Brown? Now, shortly after this, the Powell family would again do everything in their power to drag the Cox's name through the mud. Josh's brother Mike even created a website called For the Kids. In it, he talked about how Chuck and Judy purposely burned Brayden's foot. He said that the police were spending millions of dollars trying to take down his family, that his brother was completely innocent, and that taking away Charlie and Brayden was illegal. The social workers eventually found the website, and they immediately confronted Josh. It was not a good look for him when he was trying to gain back custody of his children. Josh eventually got his family to take the website down, but it seemed as if the damage was already done. Now, Josh Powell had another court date scheduled for February 1st, 2012,
1:54:33 Colin Brown? to try and get custody of his boys. But soon enough, his social workers would come across some information that would change everything. Remember how during the search of Steve Powell's home, investigators confiscated Josh's computers? Well, Josh had encrypted a lot of his stuff so they couldn't gain access. But when they finally did, they found some disturbing things. On Josh's devices, there was a lot of pornography, including male-on-male and rape pornography. Specifically, the Harry Potter characters getting raped. But the most concerning thing was the incestuous cartoon pornography. There were around 400 images of cartoon incest porn between adults and children. Now, for some reason, and I disagree with this law,
1:55:18 Colin Brown? because it was cartoons, it technically wasn't considered child sexual abuse material, but it was disturbing nonetheless.
1:55:27 Courtney Brown? Up until this point, it seemed as if Josh Powell truly believed that he was going to get custody of his boys. But after seeing this, the social workers were concerned. They didn't think Charlie and Braden should be in the custody of someone who was watching cartoon child incest porn. So the judge ruled that the boys would stay with Chuck and Judy. They also told Josh that he could still have visitations, but only if he completed a psychosexual evaluation. The judge also ordered him to take a polygraph in connection to Susan's disappearance. As you can imagine, Josh was not happy about that.
1:56:09 Courtney Brown? He was fully losing control of everything in his life. After Susan's disappearance, he lost his home, his family fell apart, everyone in America hated him, his father was arrested, and now he was losing custody of his children. But even more so, after years of tension between Josh and Susan's family, he felt like Judy and Chuck Cox had won. The police were also closing in on him. So just like he did with Susan, Josh decided that he was going to take that control back.
1:56:48 Colin Brown? On February 4th, 2012, Josh Powell went to a Bank of America and withdrew $7,000. Next, he visited his storage unit. Inside were boxes and boxes of his family's things. Josh threw a bunch of stuff in the dumpster. He then mailed his sister Alina the key to the storage unit. After that, Josh went home and filled up some boxes with Charlie and Braden's toys, clothing, and books. He then drove to a goodwill and donated all of it. But next, Josh would drive to a convenience store. Inside, he purchased two five-gallon containers, and then filled them both with gasoline.
1:57:27 Courtney Brown? The following day was Sunday, February 5th, 2012. Like every Sunday, Chuck and Judy got ready for church, and they got the boys ready for their scheduled visitation with their dad. Every time Charlie and Brayden had to leave, the Cox's felt unsettled. They knew that Josh Powell was a dangerous man, but there was nothing they could do about it. The one thing that gave them any sort of comfort was knowing that the visitations were supervised. At some point that morning, the social worker, Elizabeth Griffin Hall, arrived to pick up Charlie and Brayden. She had been working with the family for a while now, when this was just like every other visit,
1:58:12 Courtney Brown? or so she thought. That morning Chuck and Judy kissed their grandsons goodbye, not knowing that it would be for the very last time. Then from there, Charlie and Brayden got into the car with Elizabeth, and they started the drive to Josh's house.
1:58:31 Colin Brown? Over at Josh Powell's house in Graham, Washington, he had just tied up all of his loose ends. He took the money out of his accounts, he mailed his sister the key to the storage unit, and lastly, he got the two gallons of gasoline. That morning, shortly before Charlie and Brayden arrived for their visitation, Josh had emailed his little sister, Alina, with instructions on what to do with his finances. He also left her this voicemail.
1:58:57 Speaker 08 Hello, this is Josh. And I'm...
1:59:03 Speaker 08 I'm going to say goodbye. I am not... Without my son. And I'm not able to go on anymore. I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt. Goodbye.
1:59:22 Courtney Brown? It was around noon when Elizabeth pulled up to Josh's driveway. The sounds of little boys echoed in her backseat. Elizabeth would later say that throughout her experiences with Josh, he seemed to be a good dad. During their visitations, he would often play with the boys, showing them how things worked and making them nutritious meals. But she also wasn't naive to the fact that parents were often on their best behaviors during visitations. She had been working this job for a while and she knew how things worked. But today would by far be the most memorable day of her career. After getting the boys out of the car,
2:00:05 Courtney Brown? they ran up ahead towards the home. Josh Powell quickly opened up the front door, allowing Charlie and Brayden to run inside. "I have a surprise for you," he told them. However, the exciting comment did not match the disturbing look on Josh's face. Elizabeth had been right behind the boys. But right as she stepped up to the front door, Josh looked her dead in the eyes and then slammed the door in her face.
2:00:38 Courtney Brown? With it, the air from inside the home wafted in her direction, revealing a scent that made her heart drop. It was the smell of gasoline. Elizabeth immediately began banging on the front door, yelling for Josh to let her in. She even tried to open it herself, but Josh had locked it. Then, to her horror, she heard the sound of a child crying. Immediately, Elizabeth grabbed her phone and dialed 911.
2:01:08 Speaker 14 Hey, I'm on a supervised visitation for a court-ordered visit, and something really weird has happened. The kid went into the house and the parent, the biological parent, whose name is Josh Powell, will not let me in the door. What should I do? What's the address? It's eight, one, one, nine, and I, I think it's eighty ninth. Um, I, I don't know what the address is. Okay, that's pretty important for me to know.
2:01:36 Speaker 14 Um, sorry, I can't, just a minute, let me get in my car and see if I can, if I can find it. I'm, this, nothing like this has ever happened before at, um,
2:01:47 Speaker 14 these visitations, so I'm really, um, shocked. And I could hear one of the kids crying, but he still wouldn't let me in. Okay, it is, uh, one, oh.
2:02:04 Speaker 14 Just a minute, I have it here.
2:02:07 Speaker 14 You can't find me by GPS? No.
2:02:19 Speaker 14 Okay, it is, um, I still can't find it.
2:02:32 Speaker 14 But I think I need help right away. He's, he's on a very short leash with CFHS and CPF has been involved. And this is the craziest thing, he looked right at me and closed the door. Are you there? Yes ma'am, I'm just waiting to know where you are. Okay. And I'd like to pull out of the driveway because I smell gasoline and he won't let me in.
2:02:54 Speaker 14 You want to pull out of the driveway because you smell gasoline, but he won't let you? I smell, he, he won't let me in. He won't let you out of the driveway? He won't let me in the house. Whose house is it? Got the kids in the house and he won't let me in. It's a supervised visit. I understand. Whose house is it? Josh Powell. Okay, so you don't live there, right? No, I don't, no, I'm contracted to the state to provide supervised visitation. I see, okay. And, and who is there to exercise the visitation? I am, uh, and the visit is with Josh Powell. And who's supervised? And here's the husband, I supervise. So you supervise and you're doing the visit? Yeah, I supervise. You supervise yourself?
2:03:37 Speaker 14 I supervise myself, I'm the supervisor here. Wait a minute. If it's a supervised visit, you can't supervise yourself? If you're the visitor. I do supervise myself, I'm the supervisor for the supervised visit. Okay, well, aren't you the one ma- aren't you the one making the visit? Or is there another parent that you're supervising? No, yes, I'm the one that supervises. I pick up the kids, it's a grandparent. Yes.
2:04:03 Speaker 14 And then who visits with the children? Josh Powell. Okay, so you're supposed to be there to supervise Josh Powell's visit with the children? Yes, that's correct. And how did? And here's the husband, I'm missing Susan Powell. How did? This is a high-profile case. How did he, how did he gain access to the children before you got there? He got, I was one step in back of them. Okay, so they went into the house and then he locked you out? Yeah, he, he put the door right in my face. All right, now it's clear. Your last name? My name is Elizabeth Gifford Hall.
2:04:43 Colin Brown? The 911 call was infuriating. It lasted seven minutes and the dispatcher didn't seem to understand the severity of the situation. He even told her that he would have a deputy come by when they could.
2:04:55 Speaker 14 Okay, how long will it be? I don't know ma'am, we have to respond to emergency life-threatening situations first. The first available deputy. Well, this, this could be life-threatening. He went to court on Wednesday and he, he didn't get his kids back. And this is really, I'm af- I'm afraid for their lives. Okay, has he threatened the lives of the children previously?
2:05:16 Speaker 15 I have no idea.
2:05:17 Speaker 14 All right, we'll have the first available deputy contact to.
2:05:21 Courtney Brown? After smelling the gasoline, Elizabeth wasn't sure what would happen, so she quickly backed her car down the street. And then, she waited. But before the police could arrive, Elizabeth watched in horror as the Powell home exploded, right before her eyes. It was 12:16 PM, and immediately, the entire house was engulfed in flames. Elizabeth called 911, again.
2:05:51 Speaker 15 Yes, there was a man and two children. Ma'am, you know there was a man and two children? Okay, you know if anyone's in the house? Yes, there was a man and two children. I just dropped off the children and he wouldn't let me in the door. And people are saying, "There's not somebody here," but I was just there, and there is somebody here. There's two little boys in the house. You saw him go back into the house from the flames, right before the flames? He didn't ever leave the house. He just opened the door, the kids were kids were one step ahead of me, they're five and seven. They were one step ahead of me, and he slammed the door in my face. And you think he might have done this intentionally? Yes.
2:06:28 Colin Brown? In addition, the loud boom caused many people in the neighborhood to emerge from their homes, and they quickly called 911, as well.
2:06:37 Speaker 03 Uh, fire, there's a house on fire explosion.
2:06:39 Speaker 15 The house just blew up and it's on fire.
2:06:43 Speaker 15 I don't, God, I don't know, um... Smoking fire? Yes, in a loud, huge boom. And there's crap flying all over the place, dark smoke. There's other people that can see it.
2:06:57 Colin Brown? Around this time, Josh's sister, Alina, woke up to see that voicemail that Josh had left her. Immediately, she called the police.
2:07:05 Speaker 14 I think my brother might be in trouble or something. Just come out to brother. He hasn't... I don't know, he's sending weird emails, he's sending the files and stuff. I mean, I know, it's so stupid, hard on him, the abuse is extremely difficult. What else did the email, what else did... Elena, I need you to calm down, okay? What else did the email say? Nothing, he just, he just, he, he sent several emails saying stuff about how to, how to handle his property and something, how to campaign, so it is, I don't know. It was just an email. Okay.
2:07:44 Speaker 14 The only way to do that would be if I drive over there and I'm, I'm terrified to drive over there. Well, what's the opposite of that, so you don't know where we're going?
2:07:52 Speaker 14 Well, I'd ask you to make any contact with him, what's the opposite of that?
2:07:57 Speaker 14 I'm not afraid of him, he's never hurt me, I'm afraid of me, so... I don't want to be hurt. Elena, you are not helpful when you're crying.
2:08:08 Courtney Brown? It took about three minutes for firefighters to arrive at the Powell home. As they did, they saw that it was completely engulfed in flames, with thick black smoke billowing in the air. Because of the extreme temperatures, the firefighters couldn't go anywhere near the home. They could only work on extinguishing the flames. Finally, at around 1:30 PM, they were able to make their way inside. Based on the social worker's testimony, they knew that three people were inside, one adult and two young children. And soon enough, they would find them.
2:08:48 Courtney Brown? Josh Powell was located face up on the floor. There was almost nothing left of him from the waist down. Charlie and Brayden were discovered on a burned box spring. Their hands were touching. Charlie was found on his left side. Brayden was found face down. One by one, their bodies were taken out, covered in a white sheet, as neighbors and reporters stood outside in complete shock. By this point, the entire world knew of the Powell family. Susan's disappearance had been in the media for years. And now they were about to learn that Josh Powell not only likely killed Susan... But they're two young boys, as well.
2:09:33 Colin Brown? As word began to spread, Chuck and Judy Cox were still in church when they got that horrific text message that Josh had blown up the house. The friend told Chuck that he saw it on Facebook, so originally Chuck didn't think it was true, that it was just a rumor. But then his friend said that the Associated Press was covering it, and that's when Chuck knew that it was serious. Immediately, he and Judy started making their way to Josh's home. As they got closer, they could still see the smoke that was rising up ahead. Their greatest fears had come true. Outside of the home, all they could do was hold each other and cry, but the details that were later revealed were worse than they could have ever imagined.
2:10:15 Courtney Brown? As it turns out, before the boys had arrived that morning, Josh Powell had walked through his home dousing it in gasoline. After slamming the door in the social worker's face, he then brought Charlie and Braden into a back room. With him was a hatchet. Horrifically, before igniting the house in flames, Josh had attempted to murder the boys by hitting them with the hatchet in the back of their heads. Both Charlie and Braden had parts of their skulls missing. After this, he placed the boys on the bed and poured gasoline on them.
2:10:58 Courtney Brown? From there, it's believed that Josh sat on one of the five gallon gas cans and lit a match. Within seconds, the house was completely engulfed. But Charlie and Braden's autopsies would later prove that they were alive when the house went up in flames. The hatchet wounds didn't kill them. The fire did.
2:11:23 Colin Brown? After the investigations, authorities closed off the burned home with a metal fence, but within hours, people in the community came to put up purple ribbons and streamers. In Utah, a vigil was held at an elementary school where more than 50 people gathered and lit a candle for Charlie and Brayden. Life for the two young boys had not been easy after their mom disappeared. But after nearly two years, Chuck and Judy had been so excited to have them back in their lives, to be able to give the children a sense of normalcy after so much chaos and loss. But in the back of their minds, they always feared that this would happen. That in Josh's final act of control, he would kill the kids, just like he killed their daughter. And in the end, that's exactly what he did.
2:12:06 Colin Brown? Susan's family and friends were completely devastated. But the one thing that brought them comfort in this time was knowing that Susan, Charlie, and Brayden had been reunited. For the boys' funeral, their family decided to hold a private ceremony for close friends and family, and then a public one for all the people who had supported them over the years. For the public ceremony, over 2,000 people showed up to pay their respects. After the service, the boys were buried. Their headstone had a picture of Charlie Brayden and their mom Susan. It read, "United in Heaven." Under Susan's picture, it also read, "Missing, December 6, 2009."
2:12:46 Courtney Brown? Believe it or not, Josh Powell's family actually tried to have the boys buried next to their father, but luckily, they were quickly shut down. And as if the Powell family couldn't get any worse, they even defended Josh in the media after he murdered Charlie and Brayden. His sister, Alina, would later say of the murder-suicide, quote, "I think this was the act of someone who had been so damaged by the lack of due process, so harassed and abused and lied about," end quote. But for everyone else, Josh's actions just confirmed what they knew all along, that he was a cold-blooded killer.
2:13:28 Colin Brown? After the deaths of Josh, Charlie, and Brayden, investigators were hoping that maybe Josh's father Steve would reveal more about Susan's disappearance. From the beginning, they didn't think he was responsible, but they did think he knew where her body was located. Now, he was still in jail at the time, but they actually put him in a room and showed him pictures of Josh, Charlie, and Brayden's bodies. They were hoping that after seeing the depravity of his son's actions, he would tell them where Susan was located. But he wouldn't budge. Now, later that year, Steve was set to go on trial, and investigators even tried offering him a plea deal. If he told them where Susan was, they would drop some of his charges. But again, he refused. Later that year, in May of 2012,
2:14:13 Colin Brown? Steve Powell finally went on trial for his voyeurism charges. The charges for taking videos of those two young girls would come later. But for this trial, after only six hours of deliberation, the jury found him guilty on all 14 counts. But surprisingly, he was only sentenced to 30 months in prison and 36 months of probation. He was also ordered to register as a sex offender. Keep in mind, that's less than three years in prison for those incredibly disturbing crimes.
2:14:45 Courtney Brown? Now, even though this case came to a tragic end, investigators were still trying to get answers. They even looked into Josh's other family members, like his brother Mike. Strangely enough, in the days before Susan's disappearance, Mike's phone had zero activity. And usually, Mike used his phone several times a day. But then, on the day of Susan's disappearance, at the same time that Josh was leaving the campsite he was at, Mike used his phone for the first time in days to check his voicemail. Then, after checking that voicemail, there was no activity for several more days. Then, a few weeks after Susan's disappearance, Mike sold his car.
2:15:31 Courtney Brown? It was a 1997 Ford Taurus, and it was in pretty good condition. But weirdly enough, he sold it for a mere $100. When investigators brought up this sold car, Mike appeared extremely nervous and evasive. When they told Mike that they tracked the car down, investigators said he looked terrified.
2:15:54 Courtney Brown? Now, they ended up bringing out cadaver dogs to search the car, and immediately, they hit on the trunk. However, they didn't ever find anything. For a while, the police believed that Mike may have helped his brother in getting rid of Susan's body. They could never prove it. Interestingly, before his death, Josh made it to where Mike was the main beneficiary of he and Susan's $2.5 million life insurance policy. Then, nine days after Josh killed himself and the boys, Mike went to claim it. But because Susan wasn't legally declared dead, he ran into some problems. The Cox family would take him to court regarding the payout.
2:16:40 Courtney Brown? But shockingly, on February 11th, 2013, Mike Powell died by suicide. He jumped off a seven-story parking garage in Minneapolis. There are still many people who believe that Mike was Josh Powell's accomplice. There are speculations that maybe Josh offered to pay him some of Susan's life insurance if he helped get rid of her body. But with he and Josh's suicide, I guess we'll never know.
2:17:11 Colin Brown? In March 2014, Steve Powell was released from prison after he served out his sentence for those voyeurism charges. But almost immediately, he was back on trial in Washington for the child pornography charges. Ultimately, in 2015, the jury found him guilty. He was sentenced to five years in prison, but he would not serve out that full sentence. Because in July of 2018, Steve passed away from a heart condition. Within eight years, five members of this family were gone. First Susan, then Josh, Charlie and Brayden, then Mike Powell, and finally Steve. In 2020, Chuck and Judy Cox sued the Washington State Department of Social and Health Services
2:17:52 Colin Brown? in a wrongful death case citing that not enough was done to keep the boys safe from their father. And on July 31st, they won. A jury awarded them $98 million. But in the end, no amount of money could take their pain away.
2:18:08 Courtney Brown? Over the years, the searches for Susan Powell's body have slowed down. But every once in a while, there will be a tip. Or a new lead. Investigators will search different areas, hoping that this time they will find her. The most recent search we could find was in 2022, where they searched for her in the West Desert Mines. But like all the others, it came up empty. To this day, the location of Susan's remains are unknown. And when Josh Powell died, he took that information to the grave. However, Susan's family remains hopeful that one day she will be found, that her body can be brought home, that they'll get the closure they deserve, and that Susan Powell
2:18:53 Courtney Brown? can finally rest in peace alongside her baby boys.
2:18:59 Colin Brown? One of the biggest sources that we used for this two-part episode was the Cold Podcast, Season One. If you want to listen to the deepest dive available on the Susan Powell case, Courtney and I both highly recommend listening to that podcast. There's still so much information that we weren't able to squeeze into these two parts. We also used the book, If I Can't Have You, written by Greg Olson and Rebecca Morris about the case. For today's episode, we will once again be making a donation to the Susan Cox Powell Foundation. Their organization provides media consulting to keep missing persons' cases in the public eye. They support domestic violence prevention. They help connect families to local organizations for media appearances and other events if
2:19:43 Colin Brown? a loved one goes missing, and so much more.
2:19:47 Colin Brown? And all of this is done in memory of Susan Powell, Charlie, and Brayden.
2:19:54 Colin Brown? Hey, everybody. Thank you for listening to Part Two of this two-part episode here on Murder in America. This story is just so complex, and it's so just disturbing. And once again, you do see these failures from authorities or people in positions of power. Time after time with these stories that we tell on this show, you can see this pattern that authorities or CPS or whoever, they fail to recognize how serious some of these issues are. And they allow these things to happen, which to me is incredibly disturbing. And there needs to be some sort of a change in the system to prevent stuff like this from continuing to happen. If you love the show and you want to help support the work that we do here on Murder in America,
2:20:38 Colin Brown? please consider joining us over on Patreon. On Patreon, you can get early ad-free access to every episode of the show. So if you don't like the ads, you can listen to the ad-free version on Patreon. And also, if you've listened to every episode of our show and you've never signed up for Patreon, if you sign up, you can immediately get access to an entire library of bonus episodes of Murder in America that will never be posted on the main feed. These are bonus episodes of the show featuring Courtney and I. They're just as long as the episodes on the main feed. They feature the same style of editing and music and all the sound design. So yeah, if you love the show and you want more, you can help support the show and get access to those episodes over on Patreon. Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram @murderinamerica
2:21:22 Colin Brown? to see photos from every single case that we cover. And please, don't forget to leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to this show. Those reviews are awesome. We love hearing from you guys and we appreciate every single one of you who've given us a five-star review. Anyways, y'all, thank you for listening to this two-part series. Courtney and I will be back next week with another episode of the show. Thank you all again. Have a great weekend. And yeah, I'll catch you all on the next one.
Previous EP. 211 - UTAH: The Susan Powell Story (Pt. 1) Next EP. 213 - LOUISIANA: He Killed The Pedophile Who Molested His Son On Live TV: The Gary Plauche Story Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated