#122 Edwin C. May - Psychics in Space, Dream Telepathy and Remote Viewing Saturn

Edwin C. May is an author and former Director of the CIA's secretive Stargate Project. Edwin, a nuclear physicist (Ph. D.) by trade, spent many years at Stanford Research Institute studying ESP (extrasensory perception) and psychokinesis. In 1985, May founded the Cognitive Sciences Laboratory, which would ultimately become the Stargate Program. May worked directly with former SRS guest Joe McMoneagle researching the remote viewing phenomenon. After the closure of the project, May founded The Laboratories for Fundamental Research, a multi-disciplinary research facility that studies psi phenomena via rigorous protocols and analyses techniques of modern science. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://helixsleep.com/srs https://shopify.com/shawn https://trueclassictees.com/srs https://expressvpn.com/shawn https://hillsdale.edu/srs https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Edwin C. May Links: Books - https://www.lfr.org/book-store Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/stores/Edwin-C.-May/author/B00MLS5MWK Laboratories for Fundamental Research - https://www.lfr.org/lfr Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Shawn Ryan?

  Mr. Edwin C. May, welcome to the Sean Ryan Show.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to it.

• 0:12Shawn Ryan?

  Man, I have been looking forward to this interview for a long time. Ever since he kind of popped up on my radar with, uh... Joe McMonigal brought you up several times and his wife, Scooter, and, uh, eventually connected us, which I'm super thankful for. And, uh, man, I'm just... I'm just totally fascinated with this subject with remote viewing, ESP, Stargate. And, uh, so I just... I want to say thank you so much for coming.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  You're most welcome. It's a pleasure to find someone with the excitement that you already have for this discipline, because that's rare in this country, for sure.

• 0:51Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:53Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know. I think it's a growing subject again then, because I see a lot of people that are interested in it.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Well, you've probably heard the phrase that it's the work of the devil.

• 1:03Shawn Ryan?

  I've heard that several times.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Just a brief anecdote on that. I had a contract for... from the Air Force by 1.5 million dollars. And a nameless, uh, senior Air Force official said, "That's the work of the devil. Kill that program." And they took the money back.

• 1:21Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22Shawn Ryan?

  Didn't even want to look into it?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 1:26Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27Shawn Ryan?

  Because we're not the only ones looking into this, from what I understand. The Russians are.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32Shawn Ryan?

  Who else is looking into this?

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Actually, um, there was a Hungarian fiction writer by the name of Arthur Kersler. I don't know if you've ever heard of him or not. When he passed away, he bequeathed a huge sum of money, Edinburgh University in Scotland, to do psi research. And when they first started that, uh, they did a worldwide search to be... who would be the first professor to occupy that chair. And an American won that, uh, that search. Bob Morris is his name. And he moved to Scotland and everybody was nervous at the university about all this weird stuff. But he became head of the British Society of Psychology, not parapsychology.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  He spawned about a hundred graduate students in PhDs in parapsychology. And then Edinburgh University wasn't in fact proud of this and it was on the front page of their website. So it's an amazing school in Scotland today even.

• 2:32Shawn Ryan?

  How many governments are looking into this? Are you aware?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Certainly the Russians are. Hungarians are with not a lot of effort. There's a big effort going on in Brazil now.

• 2:47Shawn Ryan?

  In Brazil?

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And of course Scotland and that's and Darby in the UK, a number of schools. What is it? At Greenwich University, there's a group doing work there.

• 3:03Shawn Ryan?

  Who would you say is maybe on the forefront of this?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Right now, beside our group, you mean? Seriously, the, I would say Edinburgh University. They're doing very, very good work.

• 3:18Shawn Ryan?

  Monroe?

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Monroe Institute, they don't do parapsychology research there.

• 3:23Shawn Ryan?

  Who, I miss, I didn't hear what you said before.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  At Edinburgh University, they have, they're doing excellent work there.

• 3:32Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:34Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. Well, I can't wait to dive in. It's, like I said, I'm fascinated. So kind of how I want to do the interview is we actually, we had spoken at breakfast about a, kind of an aptitude test. Am I correct on that?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  That's a good way to word it, yeah.

• 3:51Shawn Ryan?

  On if, if, if somebody may have...

• 3:56Shawn Ryan?

  Capabilities.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Call it remote viewing.

• 3:59Shawn Ryan?

  Remote viewing.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:01Shawn Ryan?

  So it's an aptitude test for remote viewing. So I think that would be a great way to kick off the interview.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:08Shawn Ryan?

  So we'll start there and then we'll get right into kind of how this popped up on your radar and how you eventually became.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 4:16Shawn Ryan?

  The director of the Stargate program, which I, I gotta be honest, I can't even believe I'm sitting across from you right now. So, um, super fascinating.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 4:26Shawn Ryan?

  And, um, and, uh, but, you know, everybody gets a gift on the show. I don't know if you, if you knew that.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  I did not.

• 4:36Shawn Ryan?

  So there's yours.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Oh, boy, is it edible?

• 4:39Shawn Ryan?

  It, actually it is edible. Dive in there.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  I was just being goofy about it.

• 4:44Shawn Ryan?

  Go open it up.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 4:50Shawn Ryan?

  Little something for the ride home. Those are Vigilance Elite gummy bears.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 4:55Shawn Ryan?

  They're legal in all 50 states.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Oh, too bad.

• 5:00Shawn Ryan?

  And they're, uh, made right here in the USA.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Fantastic. In Tennessee, I hope.

• 5:05Shawn Ryan?

  Actually, they're made in Michigan.

• 5:08Shawn Ryan?

  Hey, hey. But, um.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Thank you, that's kind.

• 5:12Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. So we'll kick it off with a introduction and this might take me about 30 minutes to bent, to get through because you have such a extensive background.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Okay, go for it.

• 5:25Shawn Ryan?

  Here we go.

• 5:28Shawn Ryan?

  You hold a degree in experimental nuclear physics, the executive director of the Cognitive Science Laboratory, previously part of the E S E S P program at S R I International, that Stanford Research Institute, spent 40, 49 years studying psychic research. You were the previous director of the U S government's program to apply E S P to matters of national security interest, also known as Stargate. In 1996, you founded Laboratories for Fundamental Research, which is still active today. The author of over 90 peer reviewed papers and over 300 technical reports.

• 6:10Shawn Ryan?

  You've given public talks about intelligence collection at the World War II famous site Bletchley Park in the UK.

• 6:20Shawn Ryan?

  Presided over 70% of the funding, $22 million and 85% of the data collection for the government's 22-year involvement into parapsychological research, accumulated over 12 years' experience in experimental nuclear physics research, fluent in a variety of 3G and 4G computer languages, including F, Fortran, IDL, Visual Basic, MATLAB, SQL, and various machine codes. Traveled often to Moscow, beginning in 1992, and has become friends with the US's former enemy, the KGB. I can't wait to dive into that.

• 7:05Shawn Ryan?

  And your colleagues are physicalists, that is, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and does not survive death. What am I missing?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  No, not a thing. Well, one issue of how Stargate came into existence, the name, because that was the last of about seven or eight names preceding it.

• 7:27Shawn Ryan?

  I've always wondered that.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. The one, I walked out of the Pentagon with a Colonel who was in charge of all this stuff, and he said, "Guess what? We've changed the name of the project. It's now called Quantum Leap." And I said, "Do we have to? Quantum Leap Progress is the smallest possible progress at above zero." And Stargate was then born as a result of that.

• 7:49Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, wow. Why did they change the name so much in the beginning?

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Well, because these were unclassified names, and it was part of security, to keep it secure.

• 7:59Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  There was Centerlane, Grill Flame, and a whole bunch of stuff like that.

• 8:05Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting, interesting. I'm nervous about this test I'm about to take.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Oh, don't be. It won't hurt at all, I promise.

• 8:13Shawn Ryan?

  What if I flunk it?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Probably will. Most people do. Don't worry about it.

• 8:17Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Now, I want to give you a little background about it. When we humans, and I presume you're a human, some of my friends are questionable that regard to me, but most humans have multiple conversations going on at the same time in their head. You're worrying about the lighting and all that, and you're having a conversation with me. I'm thinking, well, gee, what am I gonna do for dinner? And I hope this thing doesn't go too long. That kind of internal conversation. But it's not relevant for what's going on at this moment, so we edit it out of our conscience, what comes out of our mouth. We all do that, and it's just part of being human. And so, why not allow someone trying to be psychic to do the same kind of internal editing?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  So, I'm gonna tell you a little bit about what a potential remote viewing target is not going to be. For example, if you get a mental image picture of, ah, your mother cooking a hot apple pie, and it's cooling on the counter in the kitchen, please, please, don't tell me about it, because there's no food in this target pool. There's no indoor sites by this spot. There are no people here. There are no buildings. I mean, there are no inside shots, and so on. There's no human artifacts like rakes and shovels and things like that. No transportation devices. All that stuff, if it comes in your mind, just don't put it down on your paper. Don't tell me about it.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Other than that, it can be anything outdoors, period. Anything.

• 9:48Shawn Ryan?

  So, only outdoor stuff?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 9:51Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  So, that allows you, and it works beautifully for us, to allow potential participants or subjects, if you will, to have that internal sensor. It reduces the background noise substantially and allow what psychic ability can emerge from the noise.

• 10:10Shawn Ryan?

  So, only, okay, so when I'm doing this, only think about...

• 10:16Shawn Ryan?

  Viewing something from the exterior or that's outside?

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I have a stylized interview with you about that to aid that. It's, I don't know what the target says. The concept is called double-blind. You don't know what the target is. I don't know what it is. And in fact, when you're remote viewing, it hasn't even been chosen yet in the computer. So I can't clue you or cue you in some way. Well, maybe it should be a kangaroo riding a camel across the desert, except there are no animals in this thing either.

• 10:47Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  So that's, the whole idea is to just to reduce the internal noise. Also, do not expect a multimedia extravaganza between your ears. Most people, even our most, like Joe McMonigal say, it feels like he's guessing sometimes.

• 11:03Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  So it's not a, it's not a vivid thing, which we'd like it to be, but it isn't.

• 11:09Shawn Ryan?

  Would it be, would it be better to explain the aptitude test before I take it or after?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  I'm not sure what you mean.

• 11:20Shawn Ryan?

  Well, would we, I would like to talk about what I'm about to do.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Okay, go ahead.

• 11:26Shawn Ryan?

  Or should we just do it and talk about it afterwards?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Let's just do it, and we'll talk about it afterwards.

• 11:30Shawn Ryan?

  Here we go.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:32Shawn Ryan?

  Moment of truth.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Well, it's some moment.

• 11:37Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 11:42Shawn Ryan?

  Do I draw with my, do I close my eyes?

• 11:44Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, hang on. But I'd like you to just write your name and the date and time anywhere on the corner somewhere. It doesn't matter where you put it.

• 11:53Shawn Ryan?

  What is today? Today's May 9.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  May 9, and it's about 25 after, 35 after noon. Now, like any, any kind of a job, I have to instruct you what it is I want from you. So when you're ready, I'll give you what's called the tasking, what I'm asking you to do. It's very simple.

• 12:17Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Let me know when you're ready.

• 12:19Shawn Ryan?

  I'm ready.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Okay. Sean, please access and describe a photograph I'm going to show you in about 15 minutes or less from now.

• 12:29Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  And the idea is to put down whatever pops into your mind first. Don't, don't overthink it.

• 12:37Shawn Ryan?

  Whatever pops into my mind first?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Subject to the conditions we mentioned.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  And you can tell me as you write it, you write it in words or draw pictures or build it out of clay, whatever you want to do with it, doesn't matter.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  So you're thinking about it. Don't, don't think about it. Just respond to it.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Talk to me.

• 13:16Shawn Ryan?

  Drawing what came to my mind first.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Which is it?

• 13:18Shawn Ryan?

  Should I tell you what I'm drawing?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  You can't. Show it to me even.

• 13:25Shawn Ryan?

  Should I keep drawing?

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Well, no, no, just

• 13:28Shawn Ryan?

  All right.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Capture what your experience is. Okay, that's a circle on top of a point. Is that what it is?

• 13:36Shawn Ryan?

  That is a pyramid. With the moon

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:42Shawn Ryan?

  Above it, and then this is some kind of

• 13:45Speaker 01

  All right.

• 13:45Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know. I was envisioning some kind of like circular

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:50Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe cloud.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Fair enough. Don't, don't go into that detail.

• 13:54Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Suppose you could sit on top of what you call a pyramid and gaze out in front of you. What do you see?

• 14:06Shawn Ryan?

  It can't be animals, can't be any of that.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  What does the landscape look like?

• 14:16Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  What did you write?

• 14:18Shawn Ryan?

  I wrote a barren desert with a couple of dead trees.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:22Shawn Ryan?

  With no leaves on them.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  All right, excellent. Let's take a short break here.

• 14:27Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  We'll come back to it in a moment.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Interesting thing about a break is we don't want to talk about what your experience is or anything like that. We'll talk about something else, like what are you gonna have for dinner? What movie did you recently see? Did you see, I don't know, did you see the Oppenheimer movie at all? That was a strange movie. Don't go.

• 14:48Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  I can tell you a

• 14:50Shawn Ryan?

  Is this the Civil War movie?

• 14:51Speaker 01

  No, no, no. This is over Manhattan Project. Oppenheimer built the atomic bomb.

• 14:56Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't believe I just See, I'm not letting go of what I'm... Alright.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  So, I, when we're finished here, I'll give you a link to a Amazon Prime movie called "The Day After Trinity," and that is an accurate portrayal with the real people that did the work. It's an excellent film. Okay, let's get back to it. I'll re-task you.

• 15:20Shawn Ryan?

  You need a paper?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Pardon? No, the paper's good enough.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  And I want to get on record by saying, the interview procedure that I learned, that I'm using with you, to a great deal, I learned from Mr. Russell Targ. He was brilliant at that job, and I honor him for teaching me that. Excellent guy. Okay, onward. So, re-tasking. Shaun, please access and describe a photograph in drawing or pictures or words about a photograph I'm gonna show you, say, ten minutes from now. Go for it.

• 15:57Shawn Ryan?

  Could this, it's good, this is a different one?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Nope, same picture.

• 16:01Shawn Ryan?

  What if something different's in my head?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Write it down.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Helps if you write words to help me understand the squiggles that you draw as well.

• 16:13Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  What you got?

• 16:15Shawn Ryan?

  I got a house, which is actually a concrete house.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:21Shawn Ryan?

  A big pond.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 16:23Shawn Ryan?

  And, and then just vegetation, trees.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Excellent. Okay, and I'm gonna surprise you. We're gonna cut the session off now.

• 16:31Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Why do you think I'm doing that?

• 16:36Shawn Ryan?

  Exercise is complete? Because I'm drawing something completely different than what I did before?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Well, no, I'm doing it because we like, as humans, to fill in the blanks. Well, there's a house there that must have X, Y, Z on it, or that pyramid must be whatever it happened to be. So, we'll, we'll call a stop to it.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  And I now do a look, the job comes to me. Now, the target has not yet been chosen. I have no idea what it is. So, I cannot, I'm gonna analyze your results. Bear with me one second here, a little bit of homeworking here. This computer, oddly enough, is very slow. May I have the sheets, please?

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Excellent, okay.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Now see, I can't.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  I can't put words into your mouth.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  So.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Uh, for example, here, you say, um. You draw a building and it's very clearly the shape of a building. So I have no trouble thinking it's not a kangaroo. It's, it's a building. So you get a credit for that. What I'm doing, and I don't want to get into the technical details, it's called fuzzy set analysis. I'm trying to encode what you said in a way that this computer can understand to do the arithmetic with look ma, no hands.

• 18:04Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, we've got trees.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  And we got this stuff here, and I'm not gonna describe what I'm doing here, cause this is gonna be public, and we don't want people to have to guess this list I'm doing here.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  This circle thing that you do here, what, what does it say here?

• 18:27Shawn Ryan?

  That is a, like, a body of water, a lake or a pond.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Okay, thank you.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Okay, I think that's pretty good. Pressure's on me, not on you.

• 18:39Shawn Ryan?

  I feel nervous.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 18:40Shawn Ryan?

  I feel, I feel anxious.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  If you're anxious, so am I.

• 18:44Shawn Ryan?

  All right, all right.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  I want this to work really well. Okay, now, the computer goes to work by itself. What it means is, it still hasn't chosen a picture yet.

• 18:55Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yep. Now, it doesn't pay any attention to what I put in there, cause that would be cheating. In other words, it would choose a picture that matches what you said. That's not happening in the code, it just doesn't do that. But now it's gonna randomly pick a picture for us.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  This is.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  A demonstration. The participant is Ryan. And this is trial number one.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  And target B is the right answer.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  You'll be rather pleased about us. Pretty good.

• 19:42Shawn Ryan?

  No way. Are you kidding me?

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Nope, why?

• 19:45Shawn Ryan?

  Can I see it?

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:51Shawn Ryan?

  Well, lots of trees, big concrete buildings, and there's a pyramid on top.

• 20:02Shawn Ryan?

  Where's the body of water?

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Buzz off. Uh, actually, the metric here-

• 20:08Shawn Ryan?

  Can I show that on camera? Would that be possible?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 20:13Shawn Ryan?

  I just wanna, just want the, the audience to see how awesome my remote viewing capabilities are. So, there it is.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Not bad for a first attempt, actually, quite good. We have a metric called, um, figure of merit. And the way that is, uh, there are 300 photographs in here. It's could have been anyone, any one of them. And we had a team of people, like nine people, encode them in such a way that a computer could understand them. It's called, technically called a fuzzy set, and let's not go there any further. But that's been pre-coded. So what I did was to get a fuzzy set of your response. And then the computer does a Venn diagram, well, not technically, but something like it. It said, "How, how close is your description?" There are two things it asks. "How accurate was your response?"

• 21:06Speaker 01

  In other words, of all the things in the target, what percentage did you get right? The answer to that question is about fifty, fifty-three percent of what you said was correct in the target. But that isn't enough. I went out of all the things that you said, um, what percentage of what you said was correct? I mean, see the difference? One is what percentage of the target did you get? And the other part is what percentage of what you said was right? I mean, maybe you said everything was correct. No. Um, actually, you said fifty-two percent of what you said was correct.

• 21:40Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  The product of those two numbers is what we call the figure of merit. And when that's above a certain threshold, and when we use this to make money on the market place, uh, that, uh, threshold is, um, point four five two. Your number was, um, point two eight. Wasn't good enough to bet, bet money on.

• 22:01Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  But only about twenty percent of Joe's is, or twenty percent of Angela Ford's are.

• 22:06Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  It's a very high, in fact, it almost never misses above, uh, when it's that good of a remote viewing.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  So congratulations, Sean. I'm really pleased. You did a damn good job of it.

• 22:20Shawn Ryan?

  So what is this, so if I was, what would you have me do next?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Go on with the interview.

• 22:27Shawn Ryan?

  If I was, if I was, if you were looking at me to see if I had these capabilities, would that be a, let's move on to the next test, or would that be a?

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, but not right away.

• 22:38Shawn Ryan?

  Thanks for showing up. If we need you, we'll be in contact.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Not quite. I mean, tell me why it would be a mistake to have you do it again right now?

• 22:49Shawn Ryan?

  Because I would overthink it.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Not only that, one has to ask the musical question, from where does the information arise? And we, my colleague and I, have been worrying about that a long, long time. And that is, did you get it from looking into the future and seeing the picture? Another precognition? If you did that, but you know, 20 minutes from now you have a different picture, how would you be able to sort that out in your mind, which when, which precognition pays attention to it? No. So we only collect data for like, with Angela Ford, two sessions a week.

• 23:28Shawn Ryan?

  Two sessions a week?

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:30Shawn Ryan?

  That, that fast of sessions? Wow.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Actually, the fastest one, one of our participants, this psychologist named Nevin, and I guess, say, okay, here's, please access and describe the same thing I just said to you. So he said, oh, there's a tree in a path. I quit. It was over in about three seconds of it. There's gotta be something more. But no, that's exactly all that was there. He just nailed it.

• 23:58Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:59Shawn Ryan?

  So what, so I got a 50% on the, like a 53%, I believe he said, on the drawings, and a 52% on what I said was actually in the photograph.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 24:12Shawn Ryan?

  So what would, what would be a, close the book, don't contact us, we'll contact you, thanks for showing up?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Well, if, if, never on a single issue like this.

• 24:23Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Give you a hint, I don't know if Joe would like this, but it's the data.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  I have something close to 1,500 remote viewings done by, by Joe. And it's they five pictures are chosen, only one is the right answer at each trial. And so there's a 20% chance of getting it right by luck alone.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Uh, his score is 44% hit rate. Statistically, that's off the charts. But think about it, that means 56% of the time, he blows it.

• 24:59Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  And he's one of the best people we got.

• 25:03Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  So how was it? Was it fun?

• 25:07Shawn Ryan?

  I want to do it again.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  No, I'm not gonna let you.

• 25:10Shawn Ryan?

  I know, I know.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  We can do that. I'll tell you, I can do this. In fact, I work primarily through Zoom now. I've got a woman in Milan, Italy, who's a crackerjack at this.

• 25:20Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  So I do the interview over, you know, and then she sends me the response by email. And I do the same thing I just did with you.

• 25:28Shawn Ryan?

  So is this, is this

• 25:31Shawn Ryan?

  some sort of a hobby for somebody like that? Or what do they do with it now?

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Well, what she does, uh, she works with some people in finding lost people, people who have disappeared.

• 25:41Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  I think Joe probably told you that, that he worked for the Japanese on exactly that issue. But she does it for someone else, doing the same sort of thing.

• 25:50Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Is this stuff still within government? I know that the, the project shut down.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  I would love it to be, and um, probably is a good time to dig, dig into that a bit. A Navy SEAL who will remain name, nameless, um, invited us to try to restart Stargate. This was after Stargate was closed. And

• 26:17Speaker 01

  it, it never actually happened, um, but for technical reasons. But I think what's interesting is that, um.

• 26:25Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean, technical reasons?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  The person in charge, I don't want to mention her name, was an intelligence officer in Hawaii. And there were other reasons they wanted to put her out of business. So it just, the money didn't come forward and we actually didn't do the experiment. But it turns out that the working class people, not the managers, like the intelligence officers, love this stuff. It works extremely well for them. That answers questions that couldn't get by normal intelligence means. The problem is, we tried to get it started again at the management level, you know, flag officer level, kill it. They wouldn't take it.

• 27:11Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Can I ask when that Navy SEAL invited you to give the presentation? Was it recently?

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, no, not recently. Probably 15 years ago.

• 27:23Shawn Ryan?

  15 years ago?

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:25Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  So, people ask me, "Do you think the government's still doing it?" My answer is, "I hope so, but I don't believe they are."

• 27:33Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  And surprisingly enough, most of the money came under Republican administrations.

• 27:40Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:43Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think they aren't doing it anymore?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Uh, for a number of reasons. First off, intelligence collection has drastically improved over the years compared to what was going on during the Cold War. And so it's not needed as much. It's often used in law enforcement. There's a book written by a sociologist called The Blue Shield, and when he analyzed the workings of psychics with police departments, and sometimes that's quite valuable. But in terms of the intelligence collection world, it's not needed as much as it used to be.

• 28:24Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Literally. I mean, it's noisy data, it has, it should never like be sole sourced. And I don't mind saying this in public, I was on a television interview show with, on Nightline.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  And opposite me was Robert Gates, CIA Director at the time. And Larry King, I think it was, the fellow interviewing me. In the green room, they said, "You should interrupt and make it really lively." And I caught this, the previous Director, Robert Gates. My mom and father were sitting there, and I was gonna call him Bill Gates. So I called him Mr. Director all the time on TV. And it turns out that, he said, "There was no actionable, single source..." He used the term "single source application." "That was correct, that was useful." And I said, "Excuse me, sir.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  You should never sole source information for actionable intelligence. We got into trouble that way, haven't we?" So Larry King said, "Let's move on." And that's true. And there were, I mean, it wasn't perfect, but it was good enough to keep people coming back.

• 29:49Shawn Ryan?

  Very interesting. Thank you. Well, we're gonna move into the beginning of your career.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Uh-oh.

• 29:56Shawn Ryan?

  But before we do, I have a subscription account. And it's Patreon. They are top supporters. They've been here since the beginning. They're the reason that I get to have this awesome job and interview amazing people like yourself.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 30:14Shawn Ryan?

  And so, one of the things I do for their extra support and love is I give them the opportunity to ask the guest a question.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  All right.

• 30:24Shawn Ryan?

  So, this question comes from John Paul. "In your research into psychics and remote viewing, was there any indication of a spiritual or extradimensional connection that may have suggested that viewers are being helped by or connecting with other entities, spirits, watchers, or other beings that then transmit information and visual perception of remote locations back to the viewer?"

• 30:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:56Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  It deserves a better answer than that. It was a very interesting question.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Those are important questions. Humans have been worrying about that ever since we scampered down from the trees. Those are really important questions. There's an idea in physics that says, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." So, our approach has been just straight, hard-line physics, physiology, and psychology, in physiology. And these spiritual issues, however important they are, and it may influence people's reason to do this, but the question is, is that part of the mechanism by which it occurs? I don't think so.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  And the reason for that is, if it's pan-human, what it means is, remote viewers can be found in Beijing, China, they can be found in Saudi Arabia, they can be found in India, even found here in Tennessee, for goodness sakes, oh my goodness, in California. It goes across, there's no cultural reason this does not work. And that is very good, I think more than substantial evidence, that it's a genuine phenomenon, part of the Homo sapiens species. And if that is true, and it's a big if, let's say, then it can't depend upon a particular spiritual worldview, because there are so many different spiritual worldviews, including having none.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Most of our people are nonreligious at all. Fascinating. Now, maybe meditation, which, I don't think that, I would go so far to call that religion, but way to quiet your mind, there are many techniques. There was a conference arranged by our colleagues in Brazil. It took place in Alexandria, Virginia, and there were five remote viewers and three managers. And what was fascinating to me, I went on for two days, we tape-recorded the whole thing, that there was no two...

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Remote viewers that did the same technique. One person does it by dreaming. Another person does it like we just did business like across the table. Other people have tried meditation. Other people have tried music, listening to that first. I mean, there are all kinds of really bizarre ways. It doesn't matter. If you want to stand in the corner and spit nickels out of your mouth and do remote viewing that way, we're happy with that. Whatever works, works. And our job is to try to figure out what is going on with that. What is going on? And we can talk a little bit about that later on in the interview. Mechanisms.

• 33:36Shawn Ryan?

  I would love to do that. So what you're basically, what you're saying is that you think that this is species specific to humans?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now, not exclusively. But what that means is there isn't a culture in Central Africa, let's say, or in Norway that can't do remote viewing. Anybody, any human can do it. Now, like any other skill that humans have, there's a spectrum. Some people really get on with it, some people can't do it at all, and most people are somewhere in between.

• 34:09Shawn Ryan?

  So maybe we get into some history before we dive into your nuclear physics career.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Oh, dear. Okay, go ahead.

• 34:16Shawn Ryan?

  Since we're on the subject. But, you know, I had spoken about this with Joe and on the show here. And it sounds like, if I remember correctly, it sounds like he thinks the same thing, that this was kind of, maybe, maybe we've lost, maybe the majority of the species, or maybe "lost" is the wrong word, but we've lost the ability to do this. Or at least we've, we, we're having troubles accessing it. So if this is human-specific, when, I mean, what's the evolution of this?

• 34:56Shawn Ryan?

  And how did we, how did the majority of us, if I'm saying this correct, lost the capability? Or at least don't know how to access?

• 35:06Speaker 01

  I think I disagree with Joe on that. I see no evidence that we've lost it.

• 35:10Shawn Ryan?

  I could be, I don't want to misspoke, misspeak, so.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Now, I'll tell you why. I mean,

• 35:19Speaker 01

  As we'll talk later on in the interview, I've done a lot of work with the Russians now. And there's a cultural difference between Russia and the US. One of it is that it was kind of a misnomer, in my view, that the Russians are nonreligious. They're very religious. There are like six or eight churches in the Kremlin alone. And Stalin attended one church each week through entire years of the Stalinist era. They're very religious, but it's the Russian Orthodox Church. And if you've ever attended a Russian Orthodox ceremony, there's nothing but mysticism. You go, there's no pews to sit there.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  You stand around, and the priest never even looks at you. He's mumbling something incoherent to an icon on the wall. So it's very kind of mystical. Whereas after Luther and the rise of Vatican II, what's happened, unfortunately, is we've taken mysticism out of the practice of religious things. The Roman Catholic Church can give the Mass in local language instead of Latin. And so my wife thought about this, and I'm digging into it with some colleagues, that one of the reasons ESP is so well-accepted within the culture in Russia and not so here

• 36:48Speaker 01

  is that they're used to mysticism. And people hear, "What do you mean? Take the mysticism out of it?" And frankly, our work is not mystical at all. It's hard-nosed physics, physiology, and arithmetic. Fuzzy sets.

• 37:03Shawn Ryan?

  I want to reiterate, maybe I've misspoken, but I remember talking to Joe about how communication was...

• 37:12Shawn Ryan?

  In early times, talking cavemen times, that communication was a lot more efficient and deliberate than it is now. Because, and the conversation was basically saying, as language came about, it took us longer. It takes longer for me to describe to you what I'm thinking and trying to convey to you at this moment in time when, but rewind, you know, thousands and thousands of years ago. It was, it was pointing, grunting, expression. And, and what he was saying is, as we started to travel more and more in groups and safety,

• 37:54Shawn Ryan?

  that we kind of, and, and, and language was kind of developed that, that, that our thoughts and the way we communicated become less, became less efficient.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Well, behavior-

• 38:07Shawn Ryan?

  And so maybe what he was, I should have listened to this before this interview, but maybe what he was saying is that because of the overcomplicated communication that we were developing, some of the other things may have slipped.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Well, remote viewing isn't so much about our conversation, it's about action.

• 38:27Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  I mean, there was a fellow by the name of Rex Stanford, no longer with us, a psychologist, who invented a procedure and basically the bottom line of it was, if this is true, that it's innate to human beings, some are better than others, that we probably use it at a level of unconsciousness, we don't know we're using it. And I can give you a firsthand experience like that. I was teaching at City College of San Francisco, physics, and a colleague of mine was coming, coming from the east coast into San Francisco, and part of a convention in downtown San Francisco, this is before cell phones. And we had arranged that I'd pull up in front of the hotel at five o'clock in the evening, and we'd go out for dinner together.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Okay, it's about a 25 minute drive from the school to that, and I think, well, to get there at five, I've got to leave here a quarter, quarter after four, avoid traffic. I said, I'm not going to do that. It's a big, giant pain. And I gave myself all kinds of arguments why I don't want to do it. Not psychic at all. I'm sitting in my office, right? And finally, I said, oh, he's gonna be really angry. So I eventually showed up an hour late, pulled up in front of the hotel. He came running out of the hotel. How long you been here? I just got here. Oh, thank God. I have no way of reaching you. I couldn't meet you at five. So how did I do that? One explanation is, I use my own unconscious psychic ability that we all have

• 39:59Speaker 01

  to maneuver through life more efficiently than I would otherwise have. And there's a lot of data to support that, other than just my own personal experience. Pretty interesting.

• 40:11Shawn Ryan?

  Very interesting. Why do you think people like Joe are able to access this so much more efficiently and deliberately than

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Others.

• 40:25Shawn Ryan?

  than others?

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Well, you could train me, get the best high jumping trainer for the Olympics, and train the tail off me. And man, I can clear six inches, not six feet, no matter what. So some people have innate natural skill. Joe is one of them. There are a group of people who think they can train to almost unlimited skill level. And you can't do that. You can only train to whatever the native skill level is. Why Joe had that, and Angela has it, other people do. About 1% of selected population have a native skill set for that.

• 41:01Shawn Ryan?

  1%?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  That's a huge number, when you think about it. It's much larger than the number of people that can learn piano well enough to give a recital at Carnegie Hall.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  So our job is to figure out the answer to that question. I mean, right at the moment, I'm working with some neuroscientists in Brazil to try to figure out what makes the difference between Joe's brain, or somebody like him, and someone who can't do remote viewing under lab conditions. If we figure that out, we make a giant step forward. What are they saying so far? Nothing yet. Nothing yet? It's a very difficult problem. They don't even understand much of standard neuroscience, so something as weird as this. What do you think?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  My colleague and I wrote a paper together and published it in what's called Sage, which is a respected journal online, called, um, let's see, "Extracensory Perception: A Multiphasic Model of Precognition." In other words, we have a testable hypothesis of how this might work. Now, turns, I don't know if you've heard the term synesthesia. I have not. Synesthesia, it's well-known, about 4% of the population experience it. They, uh, people who have synesthesia, called synesthetes, uh, can, uh, they see numbers in color.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  They experience music viscerally in their stomach rather than listening through their ears. It's sort of like crosstalk about various parts of the sensory systems in the brain, and that's been confirmed with a functional MRI and so on. So, for all of our participants, including Joe and Angela, and they all have synesthesia, all of them. And that is a huge clue about what's going on. And what that means is, in the white matter of the brain, there's a lot of communication going back and forth across the brain, and we posit, needs to be shown if it's true or not, that someone who is really psychic, like Joe, will have much more hyperconductivity inside the white matter of his brain than the average person will.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  If that's true, we're home free. So, we're working toward that end. Wow. Very interesting. Very... How long have they been working on that?

• 43:23Shawn Ryan?

  Down in Brazil.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  Two years.

• 43:24Shawn Ryan?

  Two years.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  We're just barely getting started. In fact, Angela and I are going down to Brazil sometime later this summer as what's called a case study. I'm going to put her in a scanner and see how her brain is configured compared to baseline people.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  So we shall see.

• 43:45Shawn Ryan?

  I can't wait to hear about that. Well, let's dive into you.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:50Shawn Ryan?

  So, nuclear physics. How did we get into nuclear physics? What was the interest?

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Well, I went to a boys boarding school from seventh grade onward. So my sophomore year, I took biology and I thought, I'm going to be a biologist. My junior year, I took chemistry. No, no, I'm going to be a chemist. Guess what my class, what was in my senior year was physics. And that's goofing around a little bit, but the real serious issue, I've never had a good memory. And in physics, you don't have to remember as much stuff as you need to in these other disciplines. There's no complicated Latin names for stuff and things of that nature. And you can remember just a few basic things and derive other things that you need because you're pretty good at arithmetic. You don't have to remember it. And that's part of the reasons why I did it.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  I got interested because the toys were fun. Accelerators and high-speed electronics and things like that was lots of fun and I was darn good at it.

• 44:51Shawn Ryan?

  How long were you involved in nuclear physics? Where did you?

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Well, kind of graduate school, which I started in 1963. And I finally quit doing that in

• 45:06Speaker 01

  probably 1970.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  And I had a second postdoc. I was a postdoctoral researcher in nuclear physics at the University of California, Davis, California. And I thought, I was in academic world and I'm about ready to go to my second postdoc appointment at the University of Indiana. And I flew to Indiana and I told my prospective new boss, I can't do this anymore. The toys are fun and I'm good at it, but I just don't care about the underlying issue, nuclear structure and nuclear reaction mechanisms, not nuclear power or bombs or any of that stuff.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  And he said, okay, we'll leave the job open for a year. And I said, okay, if you want to, but I'm done with it. And my father went ballistic. He said, we put all this money and all this education, you're tossing it aside. Well, I didn't actually toss it aside. I'm still using it, the techniques.

• 46:02Shawn Ryan?

  When did you work for the Rand Corporation?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Oh, golly. I was 20 years old for the next five, six years as a summer student. I loved it. I was in the Earth and Planetary Sciences doing atmospheric physics work at that time.

• 46:19Shawn Ryan?

  What is the Rand Corporation? Can you explain that?

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's an organization, it's kind of a think tank, based in Santa Monica, California, right on the beach. It's kind of a marvelous place to work. It's very theoretically oriented. If I were a better theorist, I'd probably still be working there because it was so much fun and interesting. They do everything from upper atmospheric physics, which was what I was involved in, to mutually assured destruction during Cold War. That came out of the Rand Corporation, that whole idea. Or if all of a sudden Chicago left the map in a giant explosion, we would, according to the Rand Corporation, which was then accepted as policy, we would not immediately go to war. That might have been a mistake,

• 47:06Speaker 01

  a horrible mistake. But if it were a hell of a mistake, that's one thing. But if other missiles are on the way, then we're on, we go to war. And I thought that was a wise decision at that time. I loved it. It was good fun.

• 47:24Shawn Ryan?

  Were you involved in researching future weapons and things of this nature?

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Under Stargate, yes. We wanted to know the answer.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Not the development of the weapons, more importantly, was remote viewing capable of sensing exotic new weapons. The answer to that, short answer was yes.

• 47:49Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, so that goes into Stargate. Okay, there was a couple of loose ends I wanted to tie up there. But let's, let's move into, so you gave up your career as a nuclear physicist.

• 48:01Shawn Ryan?

  How did you get into, I mean, forty-nine years of research that has to do with the ESP?

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Very good question. My boss at the University of California at Davis was a guy named John Youngerman. And I didn't know anything about psychic stuff, never heard about it at all. And he came to me and he said, Ed, would you like to help me do this really interesting experiment? I said, what are you talking about? Well, there's a pendulum going back and forth, back and forth. And the pendulum had, at the bottom of it, a really very carefully designed, very silver good mirror. And the pendulum was designed, Youngerman did all this work, not me, I was just there. And it was, had a heartbeat period, boom, about one, one swing each second. Okay?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  And we could use laser interferometry to know the position of that pendulum, down to a fraction of a wavelength of light, very accurately. So it's a really accurate thing. And then we want to know whether people can concentrate on it and by magical psychokinesis, mind over matter, could they either increase or decrease that swinging pendulum? That was the whole idea. The problem is, it's sensitive. That means it's sensitive to everything. And the end of the story was, we had probably the most sensitive Interstate eighty truck detector in history, which was two miles away. So we had to give it away.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  But I was like in my early thirties, thirty-one or so, and I saw an advertisement by a well-known psychologist, Dr. Charles Tartt, Charlie Tartt. He did the definitive work early on on altered states of consciousness. In fact, he was mentioned even in the movie called Altered States.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  And he said, "Well, there's a weekend seminar here by a guy named Bob Monroe, who I'd never heard of, Monroe Institute." And, "Oh, nothing better do, I'll go and listen." They're talking about out-of-body experiences. "Out-of-what, huh? Out-of-body? You're gotta be nuts, what are you talking about?" So here's this 50-year-old guy up there, talking about the weirdest thing I've ever heard in my life, that he gets out of his body, and while he was out of his body, pinched his girlfriend on the butt and raised a slight welt. I'm like, "Oh, really?" And he wrote a book called "Journeys Out of the Body," which I'd recommend. I have it on my shelf at home. Read it. Read it in two sittings, and I thought, "Well, he's a businessman, I'm a physicist, I can do this, if he can." And so I gave it a good college try for a couple nights, nothing happened, and I put

• 50:35Speaker 01

  it away on the shelf, saying, "Oh, it's all silliness." Well, I was down at UC Berkeley, doing straight physics and the psychotron lab there, and I saw another flyer, saying, "The Science of Extrasensory Perceptions." "The Science of ESP? Are you kidding me?" So I wanted to go hear that talk. And that talk was given by a guy named Mr. Charles Honerton, who's no longer with us, I'm sorry to say. And he was talking science. I mean, really, statistics and how to, what double-blind protocols, and I learned about that from him. And he became my mentor, actually, and got me into this field.

• 51:12Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:14Shawn Ryan?

  Where did you go from there?

• 51:17Speaker 01

  He went to Edinburgh. We actually helped him financially to get to Edinburgh to do his PhD. He never finished college, but he was a very, very clever, smart fellow. And Edinburgh took him on as a PhD student. And he dropped dead on the scene there, unfortunately. He had a congenital heart problem that took him away.

• 51:38Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:41Shawn Ryan?

  But it can, but, I mean, your research, from what I understand, never ceased. So where did you go from, where did you go from there?

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Well, I met Ingo Swan. Ingo Swan's a well-known artist and psychic, and we did some work together with Chakravarti and Apamani's Medical Center in Brooklyn. In the Department of Psychiatry, in the basement, they had a parapsychology lab doing dream telepathy experiments. And that's been written up by the chairman of the, by...

• 52:17Speaker 01

  At Yale University.

• 52:19Shawn Ryan?

  What is dream telepathy?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Somebody's in an isolated chamber going to sleep and they're monitoring movements of the eyes while the person's asleep so they can tell when they're dreaming because when you're dreaming you get what's called REM sleep, back and forth, back and forth. And so, an experimenter would see on the chart that he's sleeping, he'd press a button and somebody down the hall had Viewmasters, those things would click three dimensional pictures of a scene and they were supposed to project somehow magically that information to the person's dream. Then, in the morning, when they woke up, they had the actual Viewmaster that was used

• 53:02Speaker 01

  for the stimulus plus three others and the participant had to decide which one was the right one. And that worked exceptionally well.

• 53:12Shawn Ryan?

  So, the Viewmaster was a...

• 53:16Speaker 01

  It's a round thing like with little slide pictures in it, all of the same theme. And it's three dimensions where you look through it and you click on it to the next view of the same scene.

• 53:28Shawn Ryan?

  And so, one of those scenes would have been in their dream?

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, not scenes, but one of the whole discs of it. The disc of a Viewmaster was all on the same theme, but different views of the same thing.

• 53:42Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  So, there were different Viewmasters with different scenes altogether and the person had to pick out which one was the right one.

• 53:51Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean the right one? The right one that was...

• 53:53Speaker 01

  The one the person was staring through while the person was dreaming all through the night.

• 53:57Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, and that worked?

• 54:00Speaker 01

  You bet, big time.

• 54:02Shawn Ryan?

  So, you kind of came into this as a skeptic?

• 54:07Shawn Ryan?

  It sounds like...

• 54:07Speaker 01

  I'm still a skeptic, actually, with regard to mind over matter, so-called psychogonosis.

• 54:15Shawn Ryan?

  You came in as to the presentation to the Monroe Institute as a skeptic. Then you got, you were really drawn to the, to the science talk.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:25Shawn Ryan?

  Worked with them, then moved over to, to this. What, I mean, so what?

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Well, there was one amusing thing, though. When we'd answer the phone in the basement of Miami's Medical Center, we'd say, hello, Division of Parapsychology, may we tell you, tell you who's, who's calling? And if that cognitive distance on the phone, what are you talking about?

• 54:50Speaker 01

  But that was really good research there, actually.

• 54:52Shawn Ryan?

  How long did that go on for?

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Oh, God, uh, run by Stanley Kripner, a well-known name in the field, who's just turned 90.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  And Alan Vaughan, and Alan Vaughan introduced me to Ingo Swan. That's how I met Ingo, actually.

• 55:08Shawn Ryan?

  And so what was, when you were doing the, the, sorry, what was it called? Dream?

• 55:14Speaker 01

  I was not involved in the dream research.

• 55:16Shawn Ryan?

  You were not involved in the dream research? What were they looking for? Say they made the connection, okay, there, the dreamer is able to identify.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, now the question is how and why. And we're still asking that question. But what Chuck Orenden said, no researcher wants to stay up all night. It's a hard way to get one, one, one set of data all night. Because you, you do multiple dreams, dreaming time over the night, four or five times each. So, and you don't get, as a researcher, you don't get any sleep.

• 55:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  So he said, well, what is it about the nature of dreaming that makes us seem to work? So he guessed that it's what's called somatosensory reduction. In other words, you don't feel cold or hot and your body is in a very comfortable, relaxed chair. So he said, well, there's other ways to do that besides being asleep. So he invented something from, um...

• 56:16Speaker 01

  The researcher elsewhere in Germany called Gonsfeld, meaning whole field. And what they do is they put you in, and it's an extremely interesting thing. They take a ping pong ball, cut it in half, and gently glue it over your eyes, and shine a soft red light in your face. So no matter where you look, you just see a patternless feature of the same kind of color, no gradients in it at all. And do the same thing with your ears with very quiet white noise. What you hear is shhhhh, right? So there's no pattern. And what happens, it is bizarre as hell. I've been a participant in those kinds of studies. You know your eyes are open, you're told to keep your eyes open,

• 56:58Speaker 01

  and you know it's red, and all of a sudden, it's dark. The red experience vanishes. Your brain says, "Well, there isn't any patterns here, we give up." So it's a kind of altered states of consciousness, except it happens in 20 minutes, not all night long. And when that happens, then they do the same thing, but the view masters are more sophisticated ways of picking a target. The participant still has to choose which of the four possible targets is the right one.

• 57:31Shawn Ryan?

  So when the red goes away, and the brain, it sounds like the brain essentially shuts down.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  In that vision, that vision, yes.

• 57:38Shawn Ryan?

  Is the participant aware of what's going on, or are they completely?

• 57:44Speaker 01

  No, they know they're doing an aside experiment, but they don't know what's happening outside of their world.

• 57:50Shawn Ryan?

  Do, are they conscious enough to know that the red light is gone? And react to it?

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been there doing it, not as a participant, you know, just to experience what Gonsfeld is like. It's bizarre. I know my eyes are open, but it's just black. What the hell's going on? Now, that gets to an interesting point for later on, because all of our sensory systems, the big five that we know about, there's more these days than we have five. They're all more sensitive to things that are changing than things are not. So you're lying outside on a nice, clear night, no streetlights, what have you, and you see the stars, it's really beautiful. What catches your attention is the satellite that goes over. And cops have blinking lights on purpose, because steady lights are not as attractive as something that's changing.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  So that gets us to something more interesting later on. How about a mechanism, how this works? Can we explore that right now? Or would you rather? Sure, why not?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  So we argued that if the S in extrasensory perception really is sensory, then the big five things we know is there must be some thing that works better when that thing, whatever it is, is changing compared to when that thing is not changing. Because otherwise, that's the way our other sensories work. Maybe the ESP sensory part works the same way. It does, and we found it. And that turns out to be something a little harder to describe, is the changing of the entropy of the target system. And that works extremely well. Can you elaborate? Sure.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Best way to do that as an example.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Entropy is a measure of chaos. And things that are, for example, if you put your water, which has molecules bouncing around it like mad, and put it in an ice tray and stick it in your freezer, it freezes them. What happens is that's a serious drop in entropy, because it's less chaotic. Now, there's a side issue here called the second law of thermodynamics, which I don't have to get into. If you reach behind your fridge, you know it's pretty warm behind a refrigerator. The heat that's taken out of the water to make ice is overly compensated by the hot behind the counter, behind the fridge. But nonetheless, that change of entropy that's called is what correlates with the quality of remote viewing.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  And there's no doubt about it now. We have nine studies that all agree about that.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  So it says it is, in fact, a sensory system. Now... We understand how if you're looking on the beach and the sun is sinking into the Pacific, it is well-known those photons hit your eyes and how that carries the information into your eyelids. It doesn't tell you anything about how you're going to respond to those photons hitting your eyes. You know, you and I are sitting on the same beach. You start crying because you got engaged on that beach. I'm crying because my mother killed herself on that same beach. It's the same photon. So all that is generated internally with each human being. But still, in terms of the remote viewing stuff, the correlation with the entropy is gorgeous now.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  It's really quite well-established.

• 1:01:15Shawn Ryan?

  You had mentioned five sensories. You know, sight, smell, taste, touch. What am I missing? What are the other sensories that you were?

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Oh, the new ones?

• 1:01:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Well, echolocation. People can go and drive a complicated system on a bicycle and avoid all the accidents.

• 1:01:42Shawn Ryan?

  I just saw a mini-doc on this.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's one. Magnetic field sensing for some people.

• 1:01:49Shawn Ryan?

  What is that?

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  To sense magnetic fields. You know, in fact, they worry about, well, there's a power line over me. My sensory system tells me, don't be near that because it's disturbing the magnetic field and I can experience it. Some people have that ability, not everybody. Not everybody can do echolocation. Not everybody can do remote viewing. It's like other human skills, there's a big spectrum.

• 1:02:17Shawn Ryan?

  Have you looked at mediumship?

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Interesting door. There's two kinds of mediumships. Excuse me. One is informational medium. A medium sits there and communicates with a disincarded entity, let's say, and you're finding out what that person has. So say your old Uncle Harry passed away and you want to ask questions about it and so on. My way of thinking, if Uncle Harry was a moron during your life, what about the death experience wised him up any? But the question always is, it's really interesting. I'm gonna take a small break here on the talk.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  There is a worldwide organization founded by Margaret Mead, very famous woman. She was in charge of the American Society, uh, no, uh, AAAS, American Association for the Advancement of Science. And she inducted the Parapsychological Association as one of the affiliate members of that organization. And they still are a part of that. So it's a very serious thing. And, um, okay, so I was a member of the Parapsychological Association for years. And I went to the current president, I was president one year and on their board and all that. I went to this fellow, his name is Dean Raden. I said, Dean, I'm quitting the organization. He said, okay, what can I bribe you to do to stay for another year?

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  And I sort of said, how much are you offering me? And he said, okay, we'll give you, how about the career achievement award? I said, okay, fair enough. So the rules are that if you get the career achievement award, which I got, that you give an invited talk at the next year's convention about all your glorious contribution to psi research. Okay. So I'm there in my coat and tie and I'm behind the podium. And I said, look, you guys have known me for 30 years and my contribution to this field is well established. Then I walked in front of the podium and put my hands on my hips and I'll say, now, let me tell you what's wrong with you bastards. I ripped everybody apart, including me. I said, look, I'm a physicist.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  There is no way in hell I should be doing psychophysiology measurements. What do I know about that? I'll make all the mistakes that the people who started that made mistakes. And we are all amateurs in that regard, including me. We're wasting our time. I would never involve, invite a student to get into this area until they get a serious degree in some other discipline. And I bragged a little bit and then I said, it's actually something that's sorrowful. And that is, I held a 20-year career job where I was paid industrial scale wages and benefits and vacation and all that sort of thing, medical care.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  And I had no other job but parapsychology research. And as far as I know, and it's been confirmed, there's no one else in parapsychology history that can make that claim. And that's pathetic. You need to have a way to make a living that way. Why would you do it? So I don't know if I can say this on camera, but I'll say it and then you can edit it out. I said, you know, I've been studying, I'm a physicist, I don't know anything about psychology, but I've been studying Freud a little bit. And, you know, dramatic way I did it, I said, you know, I've discovered why

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  women are not as good remote viewers as men. And that turns out not true, I just said that. And I hesitated and I said, penis envy. And the whole crowd started laughing hysterically. And I said, that is the right response to stupidity. What I said was made up and stupid. Now, I'd like to know, how come you don't have the same response when you are pushing quantum mechanics as an explanation for this phenomenon? You could have heard a pin drop. That was the whole point of the thing. People came up to me, boy, we loved your talk. I thought they were dialing the tar and feather company to come and grab me.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Now, paper's written up, it's been sanitized, so it isn't quite so grim. I can send a copy to you if you want. Thank you. Because it does raise an issue. There are three things that we don't know, no one knows. Number one, how long does, if you have a psychic experience, how long does it last? And that's really important to know. If it comes in bursts of milliseconds, there's no point in putting in an MRI machine because that takes 10 seconds to do anything, let alone milliseconds, forget about it. And second one is, when most particular good remote viewers do not have control over their remote viewing. In fact, Joe and I talk a lot about what opens this.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Look, if we have access as humans to all space and all time, and we were cognitively aware of it, to use a technical psychiatric term, we'd go bogus looney in a heartbeat. It would just overflow that information in your head. So the question proposes then, what opens that door to that vast array of information? And what closes that door? We don't know the answer to either of those. One example of which, we did a study with Joe McMonigal at Stanford.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  And we didn't get any result in the study. Part of the reason is, everything that was happening to Joe psychically, happened to him when he was pulling into the parking lot. He did not have control over that. So by the time we wired him up, the psychic stuff was over. And that's a serious problem. In fact, I sent back a hundred and fifty thousand dollar grant I had to study skin conductance in an MRI in Scotland with psychic stuff. And I decided, I don't know who to put into the scanner or when. That's a waste of money. And I sent the money back and we reprogrammed it. These are serious issues, and I've got some experiments on the drawing board now to test some of them. But it's a real tough problem.

• 1:08:35Shawn Ryan?

  Back to mediumship.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Okay. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Got diverted there. The other form of mediumship is called physical mediumship. And my colleague, Sinali Balthommarua, is a main person behind this, with her colleague in Brazil, Everton Meraldi. And she found 2,500 or so documents dating back to the 15th century on physical mediumship. Now, it's all fraud. All of it. And what that means, I mean, not our views, this is in the literature.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  People are with top scientists of the day, including Michael Faraday, well-known physicist. And the other problem with it is, it's primarily contained into one culture. Remember I said earlier, things are pan-human, it can't be in one culture. This is in the spiritist community in Brazil, mostly.

• 1:09:38Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  And, you know, they get pretty clever. Now, my colleagues down in Brazil have spent a rather huge sum of money to redo the experiments. And I kept saying, all you're doing is making better measurements that had gone before. And we'll see. But I don't think it's real.

• 1:09:57Shawn Ryan?

  You don't, so you don't think any mediumship is real?

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  No, physical mediumship.

• 1:10:02Shawn Ryan?

  Physical mediumship.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. But informational mediumship, of course, it's real. In fact, Julie Bechel, from University of Arizona...

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  She formulated what's called the Windbridge Institute. I actually wrote a chapter in one of her books. They now are doing grief counseling by using this method. Uncle Harry passed away and all of his survivors are grieving. So the medium gets in touch with that person, disincarnated entity, if it's real. In a sense, it doesn't matter whether it's real or not.

• 1:10:41Shawn Ryan?

  So I'm sorry. This is a little bit of information overload for me. So the two types of mediumship again are what?

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Informational medium.

• 1:10:51Shawn Ryan?

  Informational.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  They give you information about what the disincarnate, the survivor of bodily death, that person is talking to the medium and that medium is telling you what the medium, what the spirit told her. Now, physical mediumship means creating things out of thin air, like ectoplasm, this weirdly weird stuff, or physically meant, it was called table tipping in the early days. The tables would rise up and it's all done in the dark. Tables would rise up and move, or table wrapping. You'd hear people banging on the table, spirits doing that.

• 1:11:24Shawn Ryan?

  And physical mediumship is what you're saying is?

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  That's what I'm just.

• 1:11:27Shawn Ryan?

  It's all fraud?

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:11:30Shawn Ryan?

  According to your research. You had brought up the magnetic fields, which actually caught my attention, about people who maybe don't want to walk under power lines because it interrupts their magnetic field. What do they, what do they say about that?

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  It's a very controversial area. I, there's a woman I know in Moscow, Natalia Nebadaba. She did the definitive work on, if you hold your cellphone up to your ear, like a lot of people walk around all the time, is that radiation hurting your, hurting you in some way? And the answer for her research, no. She got the Lenin Prize for her excellent work in science. She's come to visit me in Palo Alto. Interesting woman, very smart. She worked for an organization called the Institute for Higher Nervous Activity. It's like that. I don't know whether that's what she meant, but very competent. Whether or not there's danger for living under a power line, I really don't know the answer.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  I don't think anybody does. But a lot of people think there must be and they choose never to live under them.

• 1:12:36Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh, uh huh. So what do you think about people that have this sensory?

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Well, magnetic sensory, that's a real phenomenon. I mean, for example, if you have hemoglobin in your blood, which we all do, hemoglobin has a magnetic aspect to it. So it's not at all surprising that, in fact, homing pigeons get to where they're going because they can see the earth's magnetic field, feel the earth's magnetic field in their own blood. And some humans can do that also, that are better at it.

• 1:13:11Shawn Ryan?

  Fascinating stuff. Fascinating stuff. Well, Edwin, let's take a quick break.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:13:17Shawn Ryan?

  And when we come back, we'll get into your time at SRI.

• 1:14:03Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Edwin, we're back from the break.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:14:06Shawn Ryan?

  We're gonna get into some SRI stuff.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Very good.

• 1:14:09Shawn Ryan?

  So in 1975, you joined the ongoing US government-sponsored work at SRI, formerly called Stanford Research Institute. You became interested in parapsychological phenomenon and in 1985, became the program's director. Can we dive into how you got involved with SRI?

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Well, it was late 75 as a consultant. That was arranged by Ingo Swann.

• 1:14:41Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Because Ingo and I had worked together at my mother's medical center and published some of our results. And he couldn't tell me that it was all classified.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  But he said to me, you know, you're a physicist. Gee, I'm involved in some work at SRI that involves physics and I'd like to know whether you'd be interested if I were to bring it up. And I said, well, I'd need to learn more about it. Well, let me go talk to the people in California about it first. So I found out later, Ingo threw one of his infamous tantrums and screamed and yelled. So to defend himself, I think Hal hired me as a consultant. My job was, because being a physics manager in experimental work, not theory, there was a magnetometer that was being used at the laboratory.

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  And the idea was that Ingo was supposed to use his psychic ability to distort the magnetic field around the magnetometer. And I said, okay, fair enough. I'm good at debugging these things. Let's see what happened. So I went and I bought a few dollar bar magnet, little tiny bar magnet. And the magnetometer was in the lab and I was outside in the hall and I just walked doing this with the bar magnet, flipping it back and forth. And the strip chart recorder followed my thing. In other words, it wasn't as well isolated as it should have been. So in a sense, I did my job as to show that it's, hey, don't put much faith in this.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Fix it or quit. It was funded by the Navy, actually. So that was part of it, what started it. And I ended up being a consultant all the way up till 79 and finally they decided to hire me as a senior research physicist. And my consulting was not part-time, I was full-time consultant.

• 1:16:43Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, good.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So they hired me as senior research physicist and went on from there.

• 1:16:50Shawn Ryan?

  What kind of stuff were you guys getting into there?

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Well, what we, the agency, well, first of all, people think of our program as a CIA program. They accounted for less than 2% of our entire funding.

• 1:17:07Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, they didn't fund us.

• 1:17:11Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's talk about, so you were on, were you on there when the agency started funding?

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Uh, I was there while it was still funding it.

• 1:17:19Shawn Ryan?

  But not at the beginning?

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:17:21Shawn Ryan?

  Can you talk about, do you, do you have knowledge about what caught the CIA's interest?

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:28Shawn Ryan?

  In this program?

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  In fact, it's in one of my published books about it because the CIA released it.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  One of the things that's really fun in my briefing is to make fun of the CIA, which I do extensively. Because the Congress ordered the CIA to release everything. Now, um, so there are like five or six copies of the same paper with different redactions on each of these papers. So I've got a letter signed by William Casey, the director of CIA, where his name is not redacted. All the other versions of it, his name is redacted.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  And it says, you know, released by the CIA with this number, you know, so it's not, I'm not breaking any laws, right? They did it. And the only thing they redacted in the whole damn thing was the author of the memo to, to, uh, to Casey, starting the program.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  And they didn't redact his name. They only redacted his signature and you can see that because a little bit of the part of his signature sneaks out underneath the redaction.

• 1:18:33Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  Come on, guys. I mean, there was, they didn't give a damn, you know, they were just doing it all together.

• 1:18:39Shawn Ryan?

  But what, what, what caught their attention to give any funding whatsoever?

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  Very good question, and I think I know the answer to that. It was Ingo Swan, actually. Uh, Ingo was doing some work, uh, first of all, I'm back up. There's an organization in, in London called the Society for Psychical Research. And it was founded in 1882 by some of the top scientists of that era. And that spawned a number of sister organizations, one of which was called the American Society for Psychical Research, based on 73rd Street in New York, in Manhattan.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  In fact, I was invited to give a talk there, so I went to my management at SRI. They did some background and said, "Oh, my God, that's older than the American Physical Society, so go," which I did. But the ASPR worked with Ingo Swan. And it turns out that Ingo could describe some randomly chosen target in the, above the tiles in the roof, over his head. And a guy named, I think it was Ken Kress in those days, an agency fellow, S and T shop guy.

• 1:19:50Shawn Ryan?

  Science and Technology.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Said, "Well, if this is real," we probably don't think it is, "but it has intelligence implications if it is real." And long story short, it was real.

• 1:20:04Shawn Ryan?

  Who was the first, well, I guess not who, what was the first agency? I mean, this went to, lots of, lots of organizations got, caught interest in this. I mean, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, I know exactly how it moved.

• 1:20:22Shawn Ryan?

  Intelligence arms of the Army, Navy, Air Force, in Marines, US Secret Service, Department of State, the Department of Justice, and the FBI. I mean, all of these organizations caught wind of this and expressed interest.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Well, let's put it this way.

• 1:20:40Shawn Ryan?

  Eventually.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Eventually. Basically, the CIA was in deep trouble because of the Nixon administration. And they wanted to get out of business themselves. They already had a big problem on their hands. And FTD, Foreign Technology Division of the Air Force, based out of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, took up the, took it up after that. Our contract monitor was a guy named Dale Graff, and he's still around, delightful man, personal friend, and he was the contract monitor. And so we had funding from FTD from the Air Force for a while. And then, a long, very complicated story, doesn't matter how it happened, but Dale shifted

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  over to Defense Intelligence Agency. He left FTD as a civilian employee to the Air Force. And he went, he's a physicist, and moved to... Actually, Boeing Air Force Base, which is part of the DIAC, Defense Intelligence Agency Analysis Center is what that's called in Washington. And then he became our contract. We got a lot of money from DIA.

• 1:21:53Shawn Ryan?

  What were they wanting you to do?

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, not research.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  It's all intelligence collection.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  So they kept giving us tasking to do this. This was long before Fort Meade Remote Viewers were involved.

• 1:22:10Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding. So this...

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did it for the most part until 1970, probably 1979.

• 1:22:19Shawn Ryan?

  So was the funding to actually collect, or was... The funding was to collect. It wasn't to research?

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  No, absolutely. And we bitched and moaned about it. We did have, we could do some research because we heard, "Well, the Russians are doing so and so. Well, is that real?" So we would do research to see whether that had any validity to it or not.

• 1:22:36Shawn Ryan?

  What was it the Russians were doing that caught their attention?

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Uh, well, let's see. Quite a number of things. One of the things where, um, somebody down in Crimea had, I think there were rats running around. And somebody in Moscow was using their influence to change the behavior of the rats.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  And we said, "Okay, we're not going to do this with rats, but it's involved psychokinesis." So we did some psychokinesis research.

• 1:23:11Shawn Ryan?

  Can you talk about psychokinesis?

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it means mind over matter. It's a long, long thing. And there are two ways, two ways of thinking about that. One is behavior of a physical system that you need statistics to understand whether something's really happening. And/or what's called macro PK, that you don't need statistics, like you just levitate to the ceiling. You don't need statistics. The guy's doing it, right? So, um...

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  I argue with my colleague in India right now. There's something called poltergeist. Have you ever heard of that term? No, I haven't. What that means is noisy toy, noisy ghost. And so there's a lot of work on poltergeist phenomenon. Very strange things happen. And I leave the door open, that maybe something interesting is actually happening there. A very respected guy, taught for 50 years at the Institute for Transpersonal Psychology. And he wrote a number of books on poltergeist.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  And he saw this one case where, the classic case is it's a very religious family, and with a brand-new infant and a prepubescent teenager, it didn't matter what gender. So Arthur Hastings was his name, he's passed away quite some time ago. Arthur writes a story that he was witnessing firsthand. There was this teenager, that classic case, this little baby boy was lying naked on the bed, and he watched a set of rosary beads fly off the dresser, wrap the beads around the genitals of this little baby boy, and Arthur had to reach in to pull them off. What is going on with that? That's hard to fake, it seems to me.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  That's an example of large-scale something or another. Was that real? I trust Arthur, yeah. Wow, wow. Now, my colleague in India, who's a neuropsychologist, thinks, "Well, there could be what is called group hallucinations." And on this book, the last author here is a guy named Lloyd Auerbach. Because the first version was written, like it was written by, designed by a committee, and it read that way. And I said, "Lloyd, can you fix this for us?" So he rewrote the whole book. I'll tell you a side story, and it's his story. It'd be interesting to have him come and talk to you.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  He's a ghost hunter, and not a crazy one.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  And there's a aircraft carrier, the Enterprise, permanently docked in Alameda, California, as a museum. And he was on the board to get it set up safe for humans. And there are all kinds of funny stories he talks about that. That a whole bunch of engineers were sitting in the in the below-deck aircraft hangar. And not open to the public yet. They see three guys in World War II military uniform, running along a gangway high up. He said, "You could see them, but you couldn't hear them." And everybody in the room saw them.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  And they disappeared. "You're not supposed to be here." And they didn't answer and just disappeared. Then, poor Lloyd got the impression that all of his buddies were trying to make this place safe. They were joking with him all the time. "Hey, talk to your ghost buddies. We need some more chain. We've run out of chains. And ghosts are supposed to have a lot of chains." "Oh, yeah, right, right." They came the next day. There were mounds of chains all over the deck. Where the hell that came from? The story he talks on are like the best. One of the board members was really a grumpy old guy and just didn't want to prove anything and scream and yelling. So they said to Lloyd, "Is there anything you could do, not to hurt this guy, but to make the idea real to him?"

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  Well, it was a typical lightning storm like we had yesterday here. And a tree hit in the parking lot of this Alameda. And the tree fell over and crushed this poor guy's car. He wasn't in it, thank goodness, at the time. So what the hell's going on with that? And Lloyd's written a whole book about it. In fact, I'm having lunch with him Sunday.

• 1:27:38Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:40Shawn Ryan?

  So Lloyd talks about, basically, he's a ghost on her. And not a crazy one, you say?

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Definitely not.

• 1:27:47Shawn Ryan?

  This brings me... This interview is not going the way I had planned, but I'm just gonna go with it. But I just want to say, in your introduction, we had said that you believed... It sounds like you believe consciousness dies with the body.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:28:04Shawn Ryan?

  And so, if you believe your colleague, your former colleague and friend Lloyd...

• 1:28:11Shawn Ryan?

  Is hunting ghosts and he's not crazy.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  How do I re- like, square that round hole?

• 1:28:19Shawn Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Very good question.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  And Lloyd's agreed with us, we talk about this a lot, that the assumption that this is a disincarnate entity, a ghost, even though they call it, you know, they call it ghosts, noisy ghost, but it may not be that way. There may be some other mechanism of the more normal type, not fraud, some other mechanism that might be involved in that psychokinesis. All psychokinesis, if it's real, and to me, it's an open question. Not true on micropsychokinesis, but macropsychos is still open for me. But it does, it does necessarily, it does not necessarily require a disincarnate entity. That's an open question. I might be wrong. Hey, I've been wrong before.

• 1:29:09Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think happens when we die?

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 1:29:12Shawn Ryan?

  You think we're just dead, lights out?

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  A bit, yep.

• 1:29:15Shawn Ryan?

  How did you come to that conclusion?

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  Well, I can't say by experience yet. Talk to me 10 years from now, we'll figure it out.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  Done a lot of reading and most neuroscientists believe that consciousness is a

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  outgrowth of the, of the brain, an emergent property of the brain. And if that is true, consciousness cannot survive burning the brain in an incrementarium after you're dead. Can't do it.

• 1:29:55Shawn Ryan?

  Have you looked into near-death experiences at all?

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Uh, I haven't, but I've certainly looked into the research. There's an organization called the Templeton Foundation. They spent half a million, five million dollars, sorry, on research labs all over the world to address the question of near-death experiences. And Bless, Templeton is well-known for spiritual things like that. And they publish, you can go to their site and read it. That the idea was that they cannot find data to support that that is a real phenomenon. The experience is real. But whether that, you know, you see your dead grandmother and you go in the light, you see the light, all those things.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  Trouble is, it's an interesting report because they say those are kind of expectations now. Didn't start off that way. We have a near-death experience, and Joe had two or three, I think. And he saw the rain going through his fingers. I think even he saw the light as well, if I remember right. Did he tell you the details of his near-death experience in Austria?

• 1:31:03Shawn Ryan?

  He, was this when he was poisoned? He did.

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  Good. I normally don't mention that. So those are interesting, open questions, which gets to the point. People ask me, "Why the hell are you doing this research, any kind?" And for me, the answer is, I'm just quoting Chuck Onerton, actually. He said, "You know, we may not be able to solve these questions about do you survive your possibility of death? And what is the meaning of life? And all of those important, serious questions. It may be that we are adding tools to the toolkit that somebody 50 years from now will be able to answer those questions."

• 1:31:48Shawn Ryan?

  Do you, with what you've come up with, the fact that you think that consciousness dies with the body and there is no afterlife, I mean, does that...

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  Well, Jews don't believe in an afterlife, to begin with, for starters. But that's not why I don't believe in it.

• 1:32:04Shawn Ryan?

  Is that, do you fear death?

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  Not that I know of.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  In fact, it seems to me,

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  there was, I guess I can use a Star Trek example, which I was really loved. And briefly, the Star Trek was going around some planet and they had a visitor from the planet there, who was a brilliant astrophysicist. They knew that the star for that planet was gonna go supernova and he was working on the details to stop that from happening. And he has a romance onboard the spaceship. And he says to the woman, "I have to go down for my exiting ceremony." "What are you talking about? On our planet, when you reach 60 years old, you gather your friends and relatives around and at the end of the party, you're dead."

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  And he said, "We do that because we need fresh blood. We need new people, new thinking." "But you're trying to solve..." "No, no, no, no." And so he talks, she talks him out of going down to the planet for his exiting ceremony. And all the relatives come up and are ashamed of him. And finally, he says, "I've got to go." And she says, "I now understand. Well, I'll have the pleasure of being there with you." So in some sense, I feel that way. In fact, let me ask you this way. I've got a magic pill here. If you take this pill, you will live for the next 150 years with perfect health. Would you take that pill?

• 1:33:43Shawn Ryan?

  Probably not.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:33:49Shawn Ryan?

  Because I do believe in an afterlife.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:33:52Shawn Ryan?

  And I look forward to getting there.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Okay, fair enough. That's a good answer. That's one of the best ones I've heard. I wouldn't take it. Because part of life is the renewal. Can you imagine working for the same boss for 150 years? Forget it. It's bad enough our Congress on both sides of the aisle, they're all too bloody old as far as I'm concerned. We need some young folks.

• 1:34:21Shawn Ryan?

  I could definitely agree with that.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's a serious critique. I mean, part of the problem is, you know, here you are, World War II vet, or maybe 50s, and you see a problem. And boy, you go through the process, and you finally get elected to Congress. By the time you get there, the problem no longer is relevant, but you're stuck in that realm. And you see that all the time, and I don't care what party you're talking about, you see it all the time. That's a terrible way to run anything.

• 1:34:52Shawn Ryan?

  Agreed. Agreed.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  So let's not get into politics.

• 1:34:57Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, let's not do that. But, you know, the other answer to that is, there's a lot of beautiful things about life. Family, lots of stuff, but...

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  You get to see them growing up and all that, yeah.

• 1:35:13Shawn Ryan?

  We're all just trying to get through it. You know, and everybody, you know, I don't know any other way to put it, but everybody's got their shit. Everybody's got their ball and chain they're dragging around, you know, with them as they go through life, and it gets heavy, gets real heavy at times. And, you know, I believe when we go, we leave that ball and chain behind. But that's interesting. You don't fear nothingness.

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  No. Now, I've never been confronted on the battlefield where I'm facing death straight on. We'll see when my time comes. But right at the moment, no. And I'll tell you what I'm doing. I'm retiring from science research the end of this year.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  Because my, how would I refer to, my step, not stepdaughter, it would be a daughter-in-law. My, my daughter Jamie is married to a woman named Laura, as a matter of fact. And she is a grief counselor, she's Jewish, and a grief counselor at one of the big health organizations called Sutter Health. And we've become really close friends. She is helping me transition. And she bought me a book about, oh, it's a centimeter thick, and it's entitled, "You're Dead Now, Now What." And what that is, is very, it's not about survival of bodily death. What it is, is documents.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  It's a book of, not to read, but to fill in. So that people left behind will know where your, you know, what your passwords are, what your bank account numbers are, and all the details that people have to undo when you're gone. I loved it. I just absolutely loved it. And we, we could have an honest discussion about death, and it was actually fun. Believe it or not.

• 1:37:18Shawn Ryan?

  I'll take your word for it. But, wow. Well, let's get back to SRI.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  All right. Speaking of death.

• 1:37:28Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. We were talking about, you know, the agency, what caught the agency's attention to get the funding. Who was the first intelligence organization to, to fund SRI? Was it CIA?

• 1:37:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:42Shawn Ryan?

  And then everybody else followed? Was it shortly thereafter?

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  Well, CIA quit. Because they were in trouble already. So it was picked up then by FTD. And then Dale, Dale Graff went to DIA, and they were funding us. And then I landed a $10 million contract with the Army Medical, US Army Medical Research Development Command in Fort Detrick. And the, the commander there was a two-star general and MD. And I thought, oh, man, he's got two strikes against him. He's a doctor, oh, no. And a general, goodness me. Turned out, he was the most fascinating man I ever met. We became really close friends, and Diane and I were at, when his son got married,

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  at the head table with him. He spoke N number of languages, I don't know how many, including Mandarin. Just a very clever guy. And what he wanted to spend, he took, do you know the term MIPR? Have you heard of that in government funding?

• 1:38:45Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  The Congress cannot, in fact, fund anybody except a executive branch agency. They can't fund SRI or me or you. So they have to send the money, called MIPR the money, to some other organization. So that's how we got most of our money that way, by a Congress directly. But Garrison Ratman, Gary Ratman, took $10 million out of his own department funding, not money coming from Congress, to figure out how does this stuff work? And he was the first one to say, we are doing research here to figure out how this worked.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  Now, it's not well-known and it's not secret. We had some remote viewers onboard spacecraft. Remote viewing our targets on the ground. And we want to know whether the Earth was a shield or not. It was not.

• 1:39:50Shawn Ryan?

  You put remote viewers in space?

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  We didn't. Gary Ratman did. Our job was just to run the experiment on the ground.

• 1:40:01Shawn Ryan?

  Let's talk about that.

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  No, let's not, because I don't know any more about it than what I just told you. It's not written up at the CIA anywhere.

• 1:40:08Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. All right.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  Not because it's secret. It's just one of those things you try and see what happened.

• 1:40:16Shawn Ryan?

  How about daily life at SRI? What were you guys doing on a daily basis?

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  Having lots of fun. Because we had special clearances that most of the other people at SRI did not have. And we had one whole ring, wing of the building, second floor, and cipher lock doors at each end.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  That meant behind those doors, we could do stuff that no one else could do at SRI. Like when we had birthday parties, we had wine and cake and all kinds of good stuff. Had parties and stuff. We worked hard and we played hard. We had Friday afternoon Si Media Emporium on the upstairs, third floor of the building, a lab. We'd show movies and have popcorn and beer, neither of which, well, we're supposed to have beer, but we did anyway. But that play hard was very, very important because

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  it was a team organization. And when I took over the team, it was really a whole shift. And a good one, I think. And they enjoyed me as much as I enjoyed them.

• 1:41:33Shawn Ryan?

  How were you guys doing your recruiting?

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  That was hard. Because you can't legally in California, maybe in the whole country, ask a questions on a recruit to join the research group that you are not supposed to ask. Does this bother your religious sensitivities? Really important question. I figured out a way to sort of tease that out of somebody because it's really important. We had an 06 Colonel Pete McNeilus sat on my head for four years. It drove me crazy. He was a devout, devout Roman Catholic and what we were doing absolutely violated his whole principles about everything. And it just

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  caused us and just a huge amount of grief.

• 1:42:26Shawn Ryan?

  How would you recruit your subjects such as people like Joe?

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  That's a different story. In the Army and Fort Maide, the big question is how can we get more psychic intelligence officers? And today, we still don't have, in fact, the folks down in Brazil are asking that same question. We have psychologists looking at every sort of personality factors, doesn't matter. Health factors, yeah, it plays a role. Genetics factors, we don't know.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  But none of the normal tests of skill of any kind, external skill. The only thing we could do to find who's good at it is to have a room full of people try it. Do it two levels, the person, uh, pick the 10% best people in the room. Have them come in one at a time for eight sessions and then decide whether they're any good or not. And when we did that, there's as much as 600 people, uh, over time. 1% of them, uh, performed excellently under laboratory conditions. And that's frustrating. And that's why we're hoping in Brazil, if we get a neurological signal in an MRI, that's much better to find people.

• 1:43:49Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh, uh huh. So you went through 600 subjects?

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  Uh, they were in groups, uh, for example, uh, two alumni groups from Stanford. Group from Mensa, and they were pissed off that the Stanford group beat them, which I predicted would be the case. Mensa people too much in their heads. The US Geological Survey Group, which was right around the corner. And a couple, oh, SRI itself. In fact, it was really interesting. SRI has its own internet system. And so I started asking, uh, we're, we're gonna have a brown bagged lunch. We're gonna do some remote viewing. And one guy, forgotten his name now, just went, listen, we thought we got rid of those morons. This fraudulent nonsense bullshit, why are we doing this, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Well, we had 50 people from SRI sitting in the room. And this guy was in the front row like this. Oh, boy. He did the best in the room. This can't be real, but okay, come on, we're gonna do our eight sessions on you. He scored beautifully and we're still good friends. He says, I think I can fake it. No, I'm sorry, you're screwed with it. You have this ability, my friend, own it.

• 1:45:08Shawn Ryan?

  Out of 600 people, we got six subjects. That's 1%.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  1%, yeah.

• 1:45:15Shawn Ryan?

  And so, you know, when you're trying to figure out if this is, if this is genetically passed on, you know, what kind of, what kind of experiments are you conducting?

• 1:45:28Speaker 01

  None.

• 1:45:29Shawn Ryan?

  To try to figure this out?

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  None.

• 1:45:31Shawn Ryan?

  None?

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  Uh, that's very difficult. Um, if I'm not, I'm not, our group don't have, we don't have the skill set to do that. The folks down in Brazil do. Uh, you, you need to do familiar work. You have to, you have to familiar me in within families. And we have a couple of data points that suggest like Angela Ford is identical twin, and I had the pleasure of working with her identical twin. And at least with one trial, she seemed equally as good as Angela. And Joe claims that his fraternal twin was equally as good as he, but I never met her. She had passed before that. So two data points don't make a model.

• 1:46:16Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  That's where we are.

• 1:46:18Shawn Ryan?

  What, what type of experiments were you conducting on?

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  Just regular remote viewing, like we just did.

• 1:46:23Shawn Ryan?

  And what, when did it?

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  I mean, that's a bread and butter thing that I just did with you.

• 1:46:32Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  Have, have, lap tap will travel, like the movie, Have Gun Will Travel.

• 1:46:37Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, the experiments, did they not develop into anything else? Or was it the same experiment over and over and over and over again for ten plus years?

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  We've gotten very sophisticated about it. I mean, I brought in a whole new mathematical approach to it, which people have wondered, how do you know in advance whether a particular remote viewing is good, bad, or indifferent, particularly if you're doing intelligence collection? You don't want to invest a lot of money if it's bullshit. So how do you prevent that from happening? And until our group didn't know, but now we do know, how to do that, confidence calling, so to speak.

• 1:47:18Shawn Ryan?

  Was SRA experimentation strictly on, well, I know it wasn't strictly on remote viewing, but what, what else were you guys conducting studies on?

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  We did a bacteriological study, a PK on Salmonella bacterium.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  And the dependent variable is the mutation rate of the bacteria. And there's a whole group at SRI that studies that sort of thing. It was kind of funny because we were triple-blind. The head of that department knew what we were doing. But the person making the samples of Salmonella bacteria, we had nine test tubes and she'd pour them into nine test tubes from the same batch and label them one through nine, lock them in an empty fish tank. And one of our colleagues, Beverly Humphrey, would go and collect it. They'd put a tarp over it and she'd wheel it across the campus to our laboratory, you know, right by the active ingredient of food poisoning, right next to the cafeteria.

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Got to be careful about that. But the idea was two ways. Participants were asked to take the three test tubes on the left and decrease the mutation rate by psychic means, who knows what, by psychokinesis. The three test tubes on the right, increase it, leave the three alone. That was one condition. Another one was randomly depending on which participant. You could pick any three test tubes you want to increase the mutation rate, pick any other three, any ones you wanted for the decrease, and then the ones left over, you left alone.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  That worked extremely well. And we have a different reason why that might work. Had nothing to do with psychokinesis.

• 1:49:13Shawn Ryan?

  What is the reason?

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Well, there's a variation. There is a statistical variation in mutation rates anyway. So if you could use your psychic ability to find the ones that are faster mutating anyhow and say, I'm going to increase it there. You're not doing anything. You're just picking out ones that are more likely to be increasing and ones that are more likely not to be decreasing, using remote viewing, so to speak.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  In fact, we developed a whole procedure and published it called Decision Augmentation Theory. In other words, ESP is not good enough to make major decisions. You should never do that because it's unreliable, but it can augment your decision a little bit in the right direction. And that works.

• 1:49:59Shawn Ryan?

  In 1985, I believe you were named Director of Stargate.

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:08Shawn Ryan?

  Can we talk about how that happened?

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:50:11Shawn Ryan?

  What those conversations were like?

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Well, I was standing on very tall shoulders. How put off and Russell Targ. Russell, they started Stargate, not named by that then. Russell left Greener Pastures in 1982, and How left in 1985. So I inherited the directorship. I'm glad. I loved it.

• 1:50:38Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, that's a big deal. I'll bet you were glad. What did you want to change about the program? If anything at all?

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  Well, is that an interesting question? Better communication. How was a very talented guy, still is. I liked the guy a lot, but he just hardly communicated with anybody on anything. We used to joke behind his back. His right hand doesn't know what his left hand is doing. He used to work at NSA, and I think that as a Navy guy. And that might have influenced him, but it was hard to get How to communicate with you. And with me, I'm the other way around. I communicate too much.

• 1:51:22Shawn Ryan?

  When NSA, CIA, FBI, Secret Service, one of any of these government organizations would approach, who would they approach when they wanted somebody to remote view a target? Would they approach SRI? Would they approach Joe specifically? Were you a part of that?

• 1:51:44Speaker 01

  Well, before the Fort Meade group were involved,

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  which means up to from seventy-two to to all the way up to seventy-nine about. SRI did it all, all the operational work. And so, Hal would get a notice from, I don't know, Department of State. One of the things we worked with was the Korean tunnels under the DMZ zone. Where the hell that came from, I don't know.

• 1:52:20Speaker 01

  But some of those things, they contacted either the people, well, they were the funders. So, they were called SRI and we were RFP, Request for Proposal.

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  And we give it to them.

• 1:52:39Shawn Ryan?

  What are, were you, were you present during these remote viewings?

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Which ones?

• 1:52:46Shawn Ryan?

  Any of them?

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:52:47Shawn Ryan?

  All of them?

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  Well, from eighty-

• 1:52:49Shawn Ryan?

  As director?

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  From eighty-five onward, yeah.

• 1:52:53Shawn Ryan?

  What are some of the most fascinating ones that just stick out in your mind? I'll bring one up.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:53:00Shawn Ryan?

  That I want to ask you about.

• 1:53:03Shawn Ryan?

  When I had Joe in here, he had talked about he remote viewed Mars. I believe maybe it was one million B.C. And saw in, in, and, and there was a pyramid. Are you familiar with this?

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:53:23Shawn Ryan?

  I'll let you pick it up from there.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  I don't believe a word of it.

• 1:53:27Shawn Ryan?

  You don't believe a word of it?

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Because you can't get, psychic functioning requires data feedback that it was correct or not. You cannot prove that statement.

• 1:53:37Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  That's why I don't buy it.

• 1:53:40Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I appreciate you saying that.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:42Shawn Ryan?

  What are some-

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Because that's a fantasy. I, you know, that we had, in fact, do you know that there was a group called Heaven's Gate that had mass suicide in California? Because one of the remote viewers from Fort Meade said, "Ah, the Kohala conference, comet is coming by and it's followed by a spacecraft full of lizard people." He remote viewed that. And they're gonna come and invade the earth and eat all your youngsters, or whatever the hell it was. And forty people, I don't know how, what the number is, I made it up. But a large number of people literally killed themselves out of fear. And I got called into it, what the hell's going on? I was asked by the cops about that. That's the danger of making remote viewing without feedback.

• 1:54:27Speaker 01

  He had no idea what the hell he was talking about. That's the danger.

• 1:54:34Shawn Ryan?

  Makes a lot of sense. What are some remote viewings that you witnessed that did have feedback?

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:54:44Shawn Ryan?

  That were accurate?

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. One of the things that the Department of Energy was interested in, could we use remote viewing to sense directed beam energy systems? And we had two that they paid for, fifty thousand dollars for remote viewings for each, for one viewing on that problem. And one of them is called Project Rose, very classified at that time. It was a microwave, high-powered microwave generator on the, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, at Sandia National Labs. And we didn't know that, of course, at the time.

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  We were held blind. And said, here's the geographical coordinates where this person is gonna be standing a week from today. Tell us what you see. And Joe absolutely bloody nailed it. He said, it's a, whatever it is, I mean, I could show you the PowerPoint on it, but he drew a...

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  In fact, it'll bring in an interesting thing up here in a minute.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  A contained environment. And he drew something that looks like a microwave generator horn. And some other details detailed about it. And he said, this thing is a testing, it's testing, destructive testing of something. He didn't know what it was. And it turned out, that's exactly what this thing it was doing. They were shining this high-energy microwave thing on electronics to see what the effects were on the electronics. It was called Project Rose. And however, about a month later, we gave Joe feedback by driving to that location. And on the way there, the Sandia had a solar collection farm.

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  A huge, maybe 100-meter field of mirrors focusing the sun's energy on the top of a tower. And the tire was sparkling like crazy with all that. And we're stopped there. And I said to Beverly Humphrey with it, let's put a sack over Joe's head. He shouldn't be seeing this because it's in his future. And his whole responses were full of mirrors. And the target had nothing to do with mirrors. Which raises a really interesting question. But he nailed it. We showed him the generator and it worked really fine.

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  We did another one on a higher.

• 1:57:18Shawn Ryan?

  What was the interesting question?

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  Pardon me?

• 1:57:21Shawn Ryan?

  You'd said that that rose an interesting question.

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Okay. In fact, I'm doing, designing a study now to study this very effect. Look, let's suppose you're doing a remote viewing. Somebody randomly chose something and it was a gas station. And on the way to give you feedback, there's a building on fire. Oh, my God, look at this. And that is far more interesting for you to remote view than the actual target system.

• 1:57:51Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the question then is, how do you prevent that? And I don't think you can, actually.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  So actually, Joe came up with this idea. We did an experiment to test whether this business of changing of entropy, does that help people remote view? And we did that by creating sort of an entropy bomb, as it were. That the experimenter would be out at the site, and half the time she would pour liquid nitrogen into a bucket full of balls, and that would evaporate in eight seconds. And that would be a huge change of entropy. And for that catch the remote view, it's like a flashlight in a dark room. With some caveats, it worked beautifully. Now, there's some funny odd things. Outside a Catholic church, the priest would come out. "What are you guys doing?" "Oh, it's an experiment.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  Don't worry, this big cloud of stuff's coming out of this box." A lot of very funny stories about that. But Joe made the point, it was really, really interesting. He said, "You know, to prevent what I, the things I was just telling you, the tasking was this. 'Okay, Sean, please access and describe the first thing you see when we take off the blindfold.'" In other words, instead of driving to the gas station, and here's that building on fire, we'd have the blindfold, you wouldn't even see the building on fire, and it would take it off, looking at the... And that worked beautifully. In fact, much more precisely than I imagined.

• 1:59:27Speaker 01

  Because in the middle of the study, Angela Ford's twin sister passed away. And she couldn't come out to California. So I flew to do the finish up her trials at her house. Now, that may not, can't take her to the site. But everything else worked just the way it's supposed to work out in California, except when I found out what the site is to be, I said to Angela, I wouldn't tell her, "So please put on the blindfold." And we'd sit patiently on her couch, as if I was driving to the site. And I'd say, "Okay, we're pulling into the parking lot now, Angela." And I had unprofessional photographs of the site, where it was predefined where you stand and where you're supposed to look at first. That was all predefined. So I would take Angela to a blank wall,

• 2:00:11Speaker 01

  hold that picture for that site, right in front of her, take off the blindfold. It was statistically equivalent to doing it in real time at the site as opposed to the photograph. That worked beautifully, a piece of Joe's research.

• 2:00:26Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, wow.

• 2:00:28Shawn Ryan?

  What are some more, what are a couple of other ones that you've, that just blew you away?

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  It had to do with the directed energy system, again, a high energy, high energy electron accelerator at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. And actually, I cheated in some sense, at least in my briefings, and I'll fess up to it every time.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  There were, Joe was to do remote viewing in eight hour segments, saying, track this guy that's going to be on site somewhere in the Bay Area.

• 2:01:07Speaker 01

  And after the whole thing was over, we had, one of the women on our project was a right sitter for United Airlines, so she had a private pilot as well. And we flew over Lawrence Livermore Lab at a high enough altitude we wouldn't get into trouble, and I took pictures that flattered the data. Didn't need to, because the Air Force was funding this, and they did the analysis, not me. But in my briefing, it looks overwhelmingly delightful, and I say, don't believe this as much as good as it looks, because it isn't, because I took pictures to make it look good. I fess up to that every time, but it's very, very stunning.

• 2:01:51Speaker 01

  I mean, Joe, for example, described the headquarters, the office building at Lawrence Livermore Lab, the shape of the building and the right number of floors, and he got that right. Because that's where the guy was planning for the execution later on.

• 2:02:06Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  Pretty impressive stuff.

• 2:02:09Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Wow. Anything else that really sticks out? Anything in space?

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Ingle Swan did a project.

• 2:02:25Speaker 01

  Going quote out of body to Jupiter. And he quoted a dead a quote fly by by Jupiter. I said, they go, how the hell do you know where Jupiter is? You can't find Jupiter on a map. How did you know how to do that? So I have no idea. I just said, here Jupiter, here I come. And he was the first to describe in advance of NASA that Jupiter had rings like Saturn. Pretty impressive.

• 2:02:51Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what's, what's, what is going through your head? I, well, hold on, let me, how long?

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  I'm gonna know what's going through your head right now.

• 2:03:01Shawn Ryan?

  My mind is blown. So what was the time between when he had remote viewed Jupiter and found out that there were, and saw rings to actual imagery of it?

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. I have to check, but it was not immediate. It was months.

• 2:03:19Shawn Ryan?

  It's only months?

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:21Shawn Ryan?

  And so what's going through your head after they came with that imagery?

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  Oh, it's impressive. Are you kidding? Well, we did another one, the remote viewer. It turns out that Jupiter has a whole bunch of moons. And one of them's called Io, and it goes around Jupiter very rapidly. It's very close to the surface. So it suffers an eclipse every orbit. So I went to my boss at SRI because Bulliver, Bulliver Watch Company wanted to get an award for somebody of the greatest, the most interesting experiment on time. So I said, hey, I want to go to get that. And so my boss said, are you are interested in winning the Bulliver Watch Company's?

• 2:04:12Speaker 01

  Or do you want to actually do the experiment? I said, I really want to do the experiment. So he said, I'll fund it for you. So with this participant, we'd be up at 3:00 in the morning. So I had, the remote viewing was, tell us in time when you remote view the moon of Jupiter and it's half-lit. That was the definition of the eclipse time. Half-lit by the shadow of Jupiter. I forgot how many trials we did, it was quite a number of them. And he was right within plus or minus 10 seconds. Now, the question is, in what timeframe did he get that?

• 2:04:52Speaker 01

  Did he get it before the, because we had to hire a telescope at Chabot College to make the measurements for us, because how do we know when it was? Which they did for us, we paid them for it. So the question is, did this participant named Gary get it in Jupiter's time, which was 40 minutes ahead of the telescope, because it was 40 light minutes away? Or did he get it in, so the question is, where do you think? In other words, is remote viewing faster than the speed of light?

• 2:05:30Shawn Ryan?

  Jupiter time.

• 2:05:33Speaker 01

  That's when it appeared. But the question is, did he actually get the data at that time? I think what happened is, he got the data, he had his experience at that time, but he was actually getting the data from precognition of the next day's photograph we showed him the answer. That's really hard to separate out.

• 2:06:01Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Wow.

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  Some of these things are pretty hard to do, actually.

• 2:06:08Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I could imagine. Actually, I can't imagine. You know, wow.

• 2:06:15Speaker 01

  Come on, you're here.

• 2:06:21Speaker 01

  You see why I have so much fun with it. And it's challenging and it angers me that we can't figure out how to do this better than we do.

• 2:06:29Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you know, and I'm learning a lot. I wanted, so what's the Fort Meade piece? Are they an in-between?

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:06:38Shawn Ryan?

  So what I'm starting to understand is, is SRI's,

• 2:06:46Shawn Ryan?

  Stanford Research Institute, this wasn't their sole focus. You, you were the director of a program within Stanford Research Institute.

• 2:06:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, SRI does a whole lot of stuff, sure.

• 2:06:58Shawn Ryan?

  So that, I did not realize that. And so was Fort Meade the bridge between

• 2:07:09Shawn Ryan?

  agencies and SRI?

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  Russ Targ and I completely agreed on this, that, um,

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  started with Ingo Swan.

• 2:07:23Speaker 01

  Ingo was, uh, was a, he, uh, told me once, I should not be his friend because he's a bitch on wheels and that was an understatement. And he said, I hate flying out here to California to do your stupid experiments. Why, there's an office in New York City for SRI. Let's, let's, let me do the experiments there. And Hal said, sure. And Ed and Russ Targ said, no, no, no, he's not a scientist. You needs, he need, you need supervision on this. Well, Hal said, no. And that started something we're paying deeply for even now, an Ingo Swan cult.

• 2:08:02Speaker 01

  That Ingo went there and trained. He, I mean, he was a brilliant guy, but he's not a scientist. And there, that started the Fort, the Fort Meade people went up and were trained by all this guy. And almost none of them produced actionable intelligence.

• 2:08:17Shawn Ryan?

  So these are two totally separate entities?

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:20Shawn Ryan?

  Almost competitors?

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  No, our job, my job, was to do research to make their job better.

• 2:08:29Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  And they never opened any of my classified emails.

• 2:08:36Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that's a shame.

• 2:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's definitely a shame. They could have had a much better product.

• 2:08:39Shawn Ryan?

  When did the HemiSync come into play?

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  It never did.

• 2:08:43Shawn Ryan?

  It never did?

• 2:08:44Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 2:08:45Shawn Ryan?

  Do you believe in the HemiSync?

• 2:08:46Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  The reason is it's bad neuroscience. It's just not right, what they're doing.

• 2:08:54Shawn Ryan?

  How so?

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  Joe, and I've had a conversation with Joe about it because it was, um...

• 2:09:01Shawn Ryan?

  Let me, let me just, can you describe what HemiSync is for the audience?

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  Yes. Uh, HemiSync is supposedly this, that, uh, based on radio technology, that if you get,

• 2:09:13Speaker 01

  slightly different frequencies in your ears, that you get the sum and difference of those frequencies, like, that's called heterodyning. And that supposedly, um, is what's hem- hemisphere synchronization. That's where HemiSync comes from. Except,

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  that was put up by, by Bob Monroe himself. And it has never yet, to this day, been put to a test. I've asked Joe that. Have, have you had any neuro- neuroscientists check that out? And the answer is no. And Bob Monroe was not a neuroscientist. But it's part of the milieu of this company. And people go, and they have an ex- Gordon, a wonderful experience. I don't mind people having experience about it. But in terms of whether it improves or doesn't, or related to remote viewing, who knows?

• 2:10:06Shawn Ryan?

  So you don't consider anything to enhance this? Or, you, you're looking strictly at factual information?

• 2:10:16Speaker 01

  Pardon?

• 2:10:17Shawn Ryan?

  You're looking at strictly factual information that's been tested through science?

• 2:10:21Speaker 01

  It's weird enough as it is if I start putting goofy stuff in there.

• 2:10:25Shawn Ryan?

  What are, is there anything else that you, that, that is?

• 2:10:32Shawn Ryan?

  That you're not buying off on that has to do with the remote viewing space.

• 2:10:37Shawn Ryan?

  Such as the hemis.

• 2:10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, remote viewing, flying saucers on Mars.

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  You know, in fact, Joe makes this big point in his book, his Remote Viewing Secrets, and all the stuff that he writes, and we've given joint talks together at Monroe, actually. And I love the guy dearly, and we were brothers. And the question then becomes, if it's a study, and I didn't invent what I'm about to tell you, if it is a study, there has to be eventual answer to that study. Maybe it's not what you expected, some other answer, who knows? But there's some result of that study. If you don't have a result of a study, it's fun to do, it's fantasy. You have no idea what you're doing. And so if you have something, and a guy by the name of Stevenson, Ian Stevenson is

• 2:11:29Speaker 01

  his name, he did the definitive work at the University of Virginia on survival after bodily death work, very clever guy.

• 2:11:41Speaker 01

  And even he said that he cannot separate experimentally whether someone's having an experience of a former life, or they're using extrasensory perception to get the same data.

• 2:11:57Speaker 01

  That's a real tough question. I didn't invent that, he did. But we've taken that and put mathematics behind it to where he can actually test whether it's decision making or something else is going on. If it's decision making, psychically, decision making, or is it a causal effect? And we can test that.

• 2:12:18Shawn Ryan?

  You just mentioned previous life. What are your thoughts on that?

• 2:12:23Speaker 01

  Don't believe it. Because the evidence are self-reported, all of it. If you want to know something that is really bad, we humans are horrible at describing our personal experiences accurately. We are. In fact, there are two jobs that people do. One is a magician, and the other is a therapist. I come to you as a therapist. Gee, Sean, I just met this fantastically beautiful woman today. She is funny and cute and brilliant and all of that. And you said to me, Ed, when are you going to understand you hate your mother?

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  That's the point. That we, in fact, there's books written on it. In fact, there's even a short video online that you could look at called "The Invisible Gorilla." I recommend the book written by these two people. And they outline all the ways in which we are masterful at fooling ourselves.

• 2:13:32Speaker 01

  So I'm skeptical about that, because I get fooled equally well. In fact, Doug Henning was a really magnificent magician. And Chuck Conner and I went to a Broadway show of him doing this stuff. And it's really amazing. So I told Chuck, I'm coming back here tomorrow, and I'm going to figure out one bloody trick, how he does it. So I sat there at the center, seventh row center. And I could not figure out any of it. Or better yet, there's a guy, Dale, no, no, no. I'm blocking on his name. He'll come to me in a minute. And he's a brilliant researcher, and Darrell Bem is his name.

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  And he was at our house for dinner in Palo Alto. And after dinner, a lot of fun. Diane was sitting at the head table. I was sitting to her left, and he was sitting to her right. And our daughter was next to him. He said, OK, I'm going to do a trick. This is a trick. Now, I'm going to push this quarter that I have through this solid oak table into a cup. So it goes clink. Yeah, that's a trick. Now I'm going to break the rules and show you how it's done. So he said it's sleight of hand. The coin is already in the cup before it goes under the table and you think it's still in my hand. Alright? So when he did it again in slow motion,

• 2:15:02Speaker 01

  knowing armed A, that it's a trick, B, you know, when and where and how it's happening. In slow motion, you can see it happening. At full speed, you couldn't see it.

• 2:15:13Speaker 01

  I don't trust my observation, firsthand observation of anything.

• 2:15:18Speaker 01

  Really. We're terrible at that. And so a lot of this BS online comes from that sort of stuff, unfortunately.

• 2:15:30Speaker 01

  I mean, I was blown away. Dammit, I know you're cheating it, but I can't see it that it's happening.

• 2:15:37Speaker 01

  In fact, I went to the, I was giving a talk at the SPR in the Society for Psychological Research in London. And they were bragging, I was the last on the docket, teacher day, they call it. And everybody was bragging their field research. They see this, that, and the other thing. So I put in this 20-second video called "The Invisible Gorilla", and I'm gonna blow it for you there.

• 2:16:02Speaker 01

  What it shows, and you can go online and see it. But now, I'm ruining it for you. There is two teams. Three people with black jerseys on and three people with white jerseys on. And each team has their own basketball. And the idea is that they,

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  the people with white jerseys can only throw their basketball to other white jersey people. And the black jersey people, the same thing. They don't match their balls, alright? And your job is to count up the number of times a white jersey person tosses a ball to another white jersey person. Now, I set it up at the SPR. I said, you know, we've been doing this research for some time and, don't understand, we Americans are so much better at it than you Brits. So they're, "Oh yeah? I'm gonna confirm."

• 2:16:57Speaker 01

  And right in the middle of this 20 second video, a guy dressed in a gorilla suit stands right in front of the camera and goes,

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  "Nobody sees him."

• 2:17:08Speaker 01

  They do not see this gorilla. It's called the invisible gorilla. And I think there are two people out of 70 in the room that saw the gorilla. And the point being is, and they said, "You bias this." I said, "Yes, indeed, and you guys bias yourself when you're out in the field." We're all susceptible to biases.

• 2:17:29Speaker 01

  And the book called Invisible Gorilla is very interesting because there are all kinds of other examples of the same problem.

• 2:17:35Shawn Ryan?

  How do you explain that?

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  Oh, well, terms. You focus on what you are biased for, and you tend to ignore the details.

• 2:17:49Shawn Ryan?

  So you're so focused on

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  You bet. That's why I bias them.

• 2:17:52Shawn Ryan?

  Who's passing the ball to who?

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:54Shawn Ryan?

  That you miss a gorilla

• 2:17:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:17:57Shawn Ryan?

  Front of the screen, banging his chest.

• 2:17:59Speaker 01

  In fact, what they do, it's really interesting. They've done eye tracking. You know, you can put eye tracking on your eyes. The people are watching the gorilla, but they don't recognize, it doesn't, it doesn't appear in their consciousness.

• 2:18:15Speaker 01

  Which is really interesting.

• 2:18:18Shawn Ryan?

  Say that again?

• 2:18:19Speaker 01

  Okay, they can see that they're counting the balls going back and forth, but their eyes are noticing the gorilla because they can follow the fact that the gorilla is moving and they eye track that that's happening. At the same time, they're trying to look at the ball at the same time. So they are seeing it. They're not just registering it in their consciousness.

• 2:18:45Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. What are some other examples of that?

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  Well, one I like a lot.

• 2:18:51Speaker 01

  It's online as well. You can see this. "I come to you, a total stranger here in downtown Nashville. I'm trying to get to the Grand Ole Opera Theater. I got a map." Back in the days when people had maps. And so I'm here, and you start pointing all this stuff out to me on my map. In the middle of our conversation, two colleagues of mine, carrying an opaque door, walk right between us. Rudely so. And I change places with somebody carrying the door who has a map.

• 2:19:24Speaker 01

  Eighty percent of the time, you don't realize you're talking to a totally different person. Even when the gender changes or the race changes. It's just amazing. It's just so un... We are not tuned at looking at the total unexpected stuff. It's fun to watch that happen. It really is.

• 2:19:48Shawn Ryan?

  Very interesting. Edwin, let's take a break. When we come back, I want to get into some of the stuff we were talking about with the Oversight Committee.

• 2:19:56Speaker 01

  Okay, good. I'd love to.

• 2:20:00Shawn Ryan?

  How many guys out there are worried about brain health? You know, all we hear about is fitness. Everybody's getting ready for bikini season because spring's right around the corner. I'm personally more concerned about my brain. You look around, you see all these brain diseases that are getting out of control. I'm going to take everything I can to improve the health of my brain. And I'm going to tell you about my five favorite supplements from Laird Superfoods that help with brain health. All right, the first thing I do every morning is I have Laird Superfood Creamer. It's got adaptogens and functional mushrooms, which are great for brain health. I put this in my tea. Tastes amazing. Who likes vegetables?

• 2:20:45Shawn Ryan?

  Cool. Me neither. That's why I take Laird's Daily Greens. Just pour it in a cup, shoot it real quick. You've got your daily vegetable intake. Plus, guess what? Yep, that's right. Functional mushroom extract. There are six different kinds in here. Once again, great for brain health. After greens, we've got daily reds. This one doesn't actually have any functional mushrooms in it, but I can't stand beets. I think they taste like shit. And so I take one scoop of this, put it in my water, and I don't have to eat beets anymore. All right, we're winding down the day now. This is the next supplement I take every single night. Laird's Sleep and Recovery. Helps me sleep, helps me recover from my daily workout. And guess what? Yep, you're right. It has mushroom extract. Guess what?

• 2:21:30Shawn Ryan?

  It's good for your brain. And I saved the best for last. Most of you know this. My favorite supplement at Laird's is Performance Mushrooms. Has a ton of mushroom extract. Super, super good for your brain. Take it every single day, sometimes multiple times a day. These are my five favorite supplements from Laird Superfoods. You can go over to lairdsuperfood.com, use the promo code SRS, save 20%. Ladies and gents, I would not have partnered with this company if I didn't believe in them. They take the cleanest ingredients, they try to source everything in America, unless they find a better ingredient that's more quality somewhere else. I think we can all appreciate that.

• 2:22:13Shawn Ryan?

  Once again, lairdsuperfood.com, use the promo code SRS, that'll save you 20%.

• 2:22:22Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you for listening to the Sean Ryan Show. If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes and leave the Sean Ryan Show a review. We read every review that comes through and we really appreciate the support. Thank you, let's get back to the show.

• 2:22:43Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Evan, we're back from the break and we're getting ready to dive into some of the stuff we were speaking about at breakfast when it came to the Oversight Committee.

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:22:53Shawn Ryan?

  So, what can you tell us about what you're experiencing with the Oversight Committee?

• 2:22:58Speaker 01

  Well, when General Ratman, with the Army Medical Research and Development Command, funded us, he said he wants to have an oversight, people who can overview us. We actually had three committees. One was a scientific oversight committee, another one was a policy oversight committee out of the Pentagon to make sure we were doing what we're being told to do. And then we had medical oversight. We had to prove, you know, that it turns out that the Army has more strict rules on dealing with human subjects than does the National Institutes of Health.

• 2:23:42Speaker 01

  So we had to make sure that was the case. For example, we were forbidden to use women in psychokinesis experiments, based on them. Because we don't know about this, maybe there's a field effect and if they're pregnant and we kill the fetus, you know, all that stuff. So, we had all those masters.

• 2:24:03Speaker 01

  The Scientific Oversight Committee consisted of 12 individuals who were the who's who of science during that era. Two Nobel laureates, one of in physics and one from the medical world. He was the Doctors Without Borders kind of guy. Their job had threefold. One is to review our protocols for each study before we actually collected any data, to prove them. Well, it turns out we were pretty good at that, so that was a fairly fast turnaround time. The second job that they had, which they never actually used, was to have drop-in privileges

• 2:24:47Speaker 01

  unannounced, to watch what was going on. They never did that. They never did that? No. We paid them $750 a day for their work when they came to SRI. Third one is that we had to write up, I guess my first time running the show, I had something like 13 different tasks that I had to do this year, and each one had a final report and so on. We submitted the final reports before sending them to the client, the government agency, to the Oversight Committee. They had the rights to respond in writing. In Volume 2 of the Stargate Archives book, their stuff is all there.

• 2:25:30Speaker 01

  I published it, critiquing us. And then they would come to SRI and meet in person with us. And that was, for me, a thrilling experience. We won about, close to 80% of the arguments that we got into with these guys, but the best part of it was the 20% we lost, because we learned how to do the product much, much better. If you say, were they all convinced about the reality of ESP? Absolutely none of them were. But they were all convinced we were doing the best science one can do in the topic.

• 2:26:14Speaker 01

  It was amazing. And we had one guy on the Oversight Committee who was Chief of Statistics, head of the Statistics Department at UC Riverside.

• 2:26:28Speaker 01

  Excuse me, and he was all wrapped around the axle over our fuzzy set arithmetic.

• 2:26:35Speaker 01

  But I showed him one of the examples that had no data other than just the example, in fact, I'm going to show it to you later, of remote viewing of a directed energy system. He saw that and says, "Now I get it." Well, I really went after him on that. I said, "Why are you accepting something that is unacceptable? It was only one trial, and you're accepting it and you're rejecting years' worth of work on this because you don't like the arithmetic?" He sort of trawled off with his tail between his legs.

• 2:27:07Shawn Ryan?

  Was that the same directed energy thing that Joe had remote viewed with the mirrors?

• 2:27:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, Joe did all... We had actually three, but we only published two of them. There was an underground nuke which we nailed, but we didn't, never went anywhere.

• 2:27:29Shawn Ryan?

  Can you tell me about that?

• 2:27:30Speaker 01

  No, we just didn't do it. Joe, I don't know if he actually, we ended up doing remote viewing of it or not, I don't recall.

• 2:27:40Speaker 01

  The captain in the Air Force who was predicting... It was done by AFTAC. Air Force, what's that, AFTAC? Threat Assessment Center, that's AFTAC.

• 2:27:56Shawn Ryan?

  Did the oversight committee present any challenges for you guys?

• 2:28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a good challenge. They said, "You know what you should do? Design your experiments that everybody's cheating and make sure that they can't, even if they were cheating, it wouldn't affect the result." That was the challenge.

• 2:28:13Shawn Ryan?

  How would somebody cheat on a remote viewing project?

• 2:28:19Speaker 01

  Well, that was before we did everything precognition. It's really hard to cheat when the target hasn't even been chosen yet. So how can you cheat? But there are sensory leakage, for example. Somebody who knows the target comes through the room and signals to the remote viewer what the answer is.

• 2:28:38Shawn Ryan?

  Why would they do that?

• 2:28:39Speaker 01

  Oh, God knows why people cheat, period.

• 2:28:41Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, have you experienced that happening?

• 2:28:44Speaker 01

  No, we never saw that.

• 2:28:47Shawn Ryan?

  Were there any other methods?

• 2:28:50Speaker 01

  Oh, sure. On the Gonsfeld, where, you know, everything has to go through electronics. So the person in the Gonsfeld is listening to stuff. Was there sensory leakage inadvertently because the crosstalk between the experimenter and the sender? So that it's not really cheating, but it's a way that results get cloudy and you can't believe them.

• 2:29:17Shawn Ryan?

  Would you find that the remote viewers are looking for some type of edge?

• 2:29:25Speaker 01

  Quite the opposite. You know, they have these experiences and they're meaningful to these people. They don't want to be accused of cheating themselves. This is real to them. They're not cheating.

• 2:29:38Shawn Ryan?

  How would the remote viewer experience a failure? Something, I mean, I think you had mentioned that

• 2:29:44Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:29:44Shawn Ryan?

  that Joe was correct 40% of the time?

• 2:29:48Speaker 01

  Oh, he was 44%.

• 2:29:50Shawn Ryan?

  44%. So how do they? Because I could imagine there's got to be some type of a psychological component to this as well. I mean, athletes deal with this. A lot of people don't, you know, not everybody knows how to deal with failure. Failure can get in your head. You see it with athletes. They get into a slump. It takes, you know, something miraculous for them to get it back. You know, maybe somebody's making bad grades. They get into a slump. Somebody in, I mean, you know, just from my own experience being an operator in the SEAL teams, I mean, people, if you have a bad house run and

• 2:30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:34Shawn Ryan?

  you can get into slump with anything, right? And so I would imagine with a 44% success rate, which what you're telling me is phenomenal.

• 2:30:43Speaker 01

  It is.

• 2:30:45Shawn Ryan?

  How do they, how do they take failure?

• 2:30:49Speaker 01

  Well, it turns out that's wholly individually dependent.

• 2:30:56Speaker 01

  Joe's just fine of it. Hey, doesn't work all that time. Who cares? Angela Ford, same thing.

• 2:31:03Speaker 01

  When we're doing associational remote viewing to make money on the stock market or something like that,

• 2:31:10Speaker 01

  she only gets hits 20% of the time.

• 2:31:14Speaker 01

  And that's fine with her because it makes a lot of money. So, but the other side of that, we've had people we've had to dismiss. And Ingo Swann was one of them. Ingo Swann would scream at Hal, "You're five minutes late. You're ruining my rise time." He would scream at Hal.

• 2:31:32Speaker 01

  And then he starts blaming-

• 2:31:33Shawn Ryan?

  What does that mean? You're ruining my rise time?

• 2:31:35Speaker 01

  That's Ingo saying he's preparing for his study. He's getting risen for it to do the study. I'm just quoting Ingo. I have no idea what that actually means. Ingo required us to change all the fluorescent light bulbs in the entire lab to solar spectrum because the regular ones are destroying his remote viewing. He was really to blame everything else on his failure except himself.

• 2:32:00Speaker 01

  And that came later in his career. That's why he himself quit.

• 2:32:06Speaker 01

  We had some other people. In fact, I've been trying for years to get Joe McMonigal and Nevin Lance, a psychologist, to write the risks of remote viewing, which there are serious risks. One is depending upon the personalities, you begin looking at your own well, your own persona in terms of your ability to do remote viewing. And that is a huge psychological mistake. We've had to let people go. People at Fort Meade have had to let people go who go, to use a technical term, crazy for doing this stuff. It's rare, but it happens.

• 2:32:46Speaker 01

  So, most people handle it just fine. I mean, you know, hey, fine, no problem, I'll come back tomorrow.

• 2:32:52Shawn Ryan?

  So you're saying that some people that have this, have this ability and, and realize that they do have the capability wind up driving themselves crazy? How so? And why?

• 2:33:04Speaker 01

  I don't know why, I'm not a psychologist.

• 2:33:06Shawn Ryan?

  Does it bother them that they have the capability?

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  No, it bothers them that they, that they failed.

• 2:33:12Shawn Ryan?

  It bothers them that they failed?

• 2:33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, those few people. I asked Nevin Lance, the psychologist, I said, "Nevin, how do you integrate what your remote viewing ability is with the rest of your life?" He said, "I don't know, I wish I could integrate the rest of my life as well."

• 2:33:29Shawn Ryan?

  What are some of the other risks?

• 2:33:32Speaker 01

  I don't know, I think that's the main one.

• 2:33:34Shawn Ryan?

  That's the main risk?

• 2:33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:37Shawn Ryan?

  Is just dealing with failure.

• 2:33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you start believing your stuff too much, it seems to me, that I'm just overlaying my own thinking out loud rather than any serious stuff about it.

• 2:33:49Shawn Ryan?

  So you're saying basically, remote viewers will get emotionally attached to their capability?

• 2:33:55Speaker 01

  Big time, you bet. And it's really disastrous for them, as well as to the unit.

• 2:33:59Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:34:01Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. Well, in 1992, it sounds like you started some type of a relationship with the Russian KGB.

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  I did.

• 2:34:14Speaker 01

  I'm an honorary member, not of a KGB.

• 2:34:19Speaker 01

  Turns out, I first went, I think it was even before, no, 92 is the first year.

• 2:34:27Speaker 01

  A expat Russian named, her Christian name is Laura V. Faith. Her Russian name is Larissa Valenskaya. Very, very talented woman. She worked with Kogan in his classified research laboratory on Sigh. Why the hell the Russians let her out, I have no idea, but she immigrated first to Israel because she's Jewish.

• 2:34:54Speaker 01

  And then she came to the States and over a long series of times she ended up getting a citizenship, becoming a Christian, and then working, teaching Russian at the, in a Defense Language School in Monterey. And we hired her out of that, she got her clearance. And so I went to Moscow with her probably four times, one of which was all the way out to Novosibirsk. And she was very protective of me. So on one time, we were, I guess, one of the last time we were together on that trip, I was giving a talk at Moscow State University. She was translating for the students.

• 2:35:38Speaker 01

  And, you know, I'm dressed like, I'm more dressed now than the way I normally dress, I have a t-shirt on it. And the students are looking like students, and two guys in suits walk into the back of the room. Uh-oh, two guys in suits, this isn't a good deal. Turns out they were from the Ministry of Defense, and they wanted us to come with, Elisa and I to come with them. And we went to, do you know what a SCIF is? Have you heard that term, S-C-I-F? Spent a lot of time in a SCIFs. Me too. So we went to a Russian version of a SCIF. And in there was Alexei Yuribetsavin, this guy who I gave you pictures of, who ran the

• 2:36:20Speaker 01

  Russian remote viewing spying program. No slouch, this guy, he is two PhDs, one in philosophy and one in mathematics. And he had a group of remote viewers, 120 remote viewers in his program. We probably never had more than 25 at any given time. And men and women, and...

• 2:36:49Speaker 01

  Their remote viewing group was called 10,003. And Joe and I both had medals about this big. That we're honorary members of the Russian Remote Viewing Group. Wow. Yeah, I meant to bring my medal with me, but I have a picture of it, you can see it. And he was never, I've never met him in uniform. But he was reporting to the head of the general staff, which would mean in our world, that would be equivalent to reporting to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. That's how high up this was. Well monitored by the Russian hierarchy military. GRU loved it.

• 2:37:32Speaker 01

  When Jai was there once with Joe, we had a group meeting with a whole bunch of remote viewers. They're Russian remote viewers, and I got to work with one of them, Elena Klimova, who was equally as good a remote viewer as Hal, as Joe. He trained them in hand-to-hand combat, weapons training, that sort of thing. And I said, "Alexei Yuravich, what about remote and remote viewing you don't understand?" He says, "Well, when the bullets are whizzing over their heads, they're highly motivated." Because he took them into the Chechnya war.

• 2:38:14Speaker 01

  He retired, Savin did, and we became really good friends. And I've given talks to his students and all have you. But he, we were sitting around a table after a two-day conference, the first day of which we were all slugging down. I mean, that would be a Russian shot of vodka.

• 2:38:41Speaker 01

  Not this, that. He had to swig it in one gulp. I had 11 straight of those. I should have died. I mean, I was really miserable. I'll bet you were. Oh, because I don't drink that much at all. The next day, I was filling my glass with water. No one noticed. Well, maybe no one said about it. But in the middle of that, the way you refer to senior Russians is not just Alexei or General Savin. You use the middle name, which is really important. Yurivich means "son of Yuri." It's a really important part of the Russian culture. Okay. So, in the middle of all this, he had a staff. He is still working for them. He was still in the military. And his staff was there at the table.

• 2:39:26Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, Joe was with us. And, um, because I've got pictures of him and Savin. In fact, I gave it to your colleague for you, showing they were completely blitzed on vodka. But I said, "Alexei Yurivich." And he interrupted me and spoke to me the only time in the 20 years I've known this man, in English. He said, "Ed, we're our friends. Call me Alexei." And his staff went, "Ah." Then he switched back into Russian. And it was being translated by Victor, Victor Rubel. And he said, "I know you've been trying to get my organization chart. Here it is.

• 2:40:11Speaker 01

  And I know you're going to report a contact report. You have to write it up." "Yes, sir, that's true. What you have to do is let the people at DIA know I want a joint program with you guys." And I said, "On what?" He said, "Well, you have the same problem we do, and that's terrorism." Because people were blowing up subway stations in Moscow. And I said, I would be honored to join you on that. So I wrote up a 30-page, relatively classified document and handed it to the three-star in charge of DIA in the Pentagon. And he was all excited, oh, this is really great because it's cheap, a bottle of scotch, you get everything you need, and you're not putting anybody in harm's way.

• 2:40:56Speaker 01

  It's ideal, and they want to do it, and we want to do it. And the three-star said, well, okay, I'm going to Moscow in a few weeks. I'll look him up and we'll get moving on it. So I walked out of his office in the Pentagon, and you could practically hear him throwing the paper in the burn bag. Never happened.

• 2:41:18Shawn Ryan?

  So it never went anywhere. It's interesting because I was wondering, you know, what does the Oversight Committee think? I mean, you're dealing with classified information, a lot of classified information at the time. I can't imagine a relationship with the Russian KGB going over well.

• 2:41:39Speaker 01

  Well, that was FSB by then. KGB was long since dissolved. But I had to get approval because I had SCI-level clearances to do this, and I got them.

• 2:41:53Shawn Ryan?

  And they approved it?

• 2:41:54Speaker 01

  You bet.

• 2:41:55Shawn Ryan?

  What did you, I mean, what are some of the, what did you think of the Russian remote viewing project? Was it more advanced than us? Did they come farther along?

• 2:42:07Speaker 01

  I talked to Viktor. Viktor Rubel was in the Red Army. He's now an American citizen and delightful man. And after Larissa passed away, he was my minder in Russia and damn good at it. I mean, he was protecting me no matter what. But Viktor said, you know, the Russians never declassify anything. I mean, I've got a 40-minute video from Russia Gazette Company, which is probably the go-to newspaper for military issues. We were front page, full front page cover on Angela and I there. And what happened is it's just rather astounding that...

• 2:42:59Speaker 01

  I gave a talk in English and it was being translated into Russian. And I showed the example of this, of Ingo's clay model of this radar site. It did not, that piece did not show up in the 40-minute video they published. Fortunately, I have a friend in the audience who sent me a video of that. So they're a little nervous about that. I had the same thing, problem. I was giving a talk. I was invited with four other Westerners to go to Hong Kong on extrasensory perception stuff.

• 2:43:41Speaker 01

  Funded by a guy named Bingo Wu, that's his name, he's a very wealthy character. And the five Westerners were there, plus 100 young Chinese kids, kids, I mean, really kids, who were trained by Qigong masters. Supposedly, all kinds of psychic ability. And I eventually had to go up to Bingo Wu later and I said, "Don't ever do that again. This is child abuse for these kids." Because they had to conform to the Western standards of activity. For example, they would, they claimed to be able to put a matchstick in a jar,

• 2:44:22Speaker 01

  seal the jar, and then by psychokinesis, break the matchstick. So because they sort of believed their own story, they said, "You, Ed, you can make your own, here's a bottle, and you can put your own matchstick in there." So I wrote, wrote some stuff on my matchstick so I know it was my match. And I put it in there, and we could use clear wrapping tape to keep making sure that it wasn't opened. I then put some symbols on the bottom of the can to make sure it was my can. And this poor girl, she was probably 15 or 14, she had it in her forehead for 40 minutes. And nothing happened. And she was distraught. And fortunately, there was a guy there named Simon Kwan, who was a...

• 2:45:11Speaker 01

  Speaks totally fluent Chinese, but he's a British, he speaks English with a British accent because he was on the British government liaison on matters of trade with China. And I said, you know, Simon, please comfort this girl for me. Because I was not angry with her in the slightest. And eventually she, and so I have a picture of the three of us hugging each other. It was really sweet. And I went up to Bingu and complained bitterly about it. But she could not do it and she was distraught.

• 2:45:46Shawn Ryan?

  Did any of the kids accomplish that?

• 2:45:48Speaker 01

  Nope. And one of the things that, they had a hundred kids, a hundred of them. And they divided them into two teams on a basketball court. And all of the, we Westerners were sitting and watching this happen outside. And the idea is these blindfolded kids were going to throw a ball through a hoop. It wasn't a game of basketball. There was just free, like free throws through the hoop. Except I got pictures, I got a picture from my computer, the kids like this, looking through his blindfold. It's so completely, utterly obvious, but what the hell can we say? Nothing.

• 2:46:22Speaker 01

  One example they had there, and it was a teleportation thing. There were two boxes, one labeled the English letter A and the other box labeled English letter B. Very clever, they had a, an object in box A with a small TV camera in box A and a small TV camera in box B. And the idea is one of these Jigong kids would arrange, God knows how, to have the item in box A appear magically in box B and it would be tape recorded by the video. Neat idea. Except the kid was left alone.

• 2:47:01Speaker 01

  Not supervised while this was going on. And oddly enough, the two video cameras both quit working. Isn't that odd?

• 2:47:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. So the guy who ran all that said and translated into English, "We would like to offer you a job to come and direct our laboratories so we do this correctly."

• 2:47:24Speaker 01

  So one of those rare times that was my ethics were in good shape. I said, "Look, there are great scientists in China. You don't need an old guy from the West. Tell you what, if you'd like, I would act, help you pick the right person from China if you want me to do that." Simon came up to me and whispered in my ear. He said, "Ed, I'd never let you take that job. Why? Because you'd like to leave China one day."

• 2:47:51Shawn Ryan?

  What are... So it sounds like we were a lot more advanced, at least in their eyes.

• 2:47:56Speaker 01

  Oh, in China, for sure.

• 2:47:59Shawn Ryan?

  What... What were some of the similarities that you saw that how the KGB or how the Russians were running their program versus Stargate?

• 2:48:08Speaker 01

  They were not very self... They were not particularly open about it. They were pleasant.

• 2:48:18Shawn Ryan?

  So they were there to collect from you, not share?

• 2:48:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:48:22Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think about the number of remote viewers? I believe you said there was 120 something remote viewers compared to, what, R6?

• 2:48:29Speaker 01

  Well, we had... SRI only had about five or six at a given moment. And Fort Meade wasn't much better.

• 2:48:37Shawn Ryan?

  So we'll double that number, 12. They have 120. Are... But I mean, you're talking about... You're talking about experiments that were done where the Kib was left unsupervised, the cameras cut out.

• 2:48:50Speaker 01

  Well, that's in China, yeah.

• 2:48:51Shawn Ryan?

  I'm guessing miraculously the, you know...

• 2:48:55Speaker 01

  The kid broke, you know, the... Come on, it's obvious what happened.

• 2:48:58Shawn Ryan?

  But... I guess what I'm getting at is we're R...

• 2:49:06Shawn Ryan?

  Were we pickier? Or had we just not found the amount that they have found yet?

• 2:49:13Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 2:49:13Shawn Ryan?

  I mean.

• 2:49:15Speaker 01

  We're not being picky. You'd never leave a participant ever alone with the apparatus. We never do.

• 2:49:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, that's not what I'm getting at. I guess what I'm getting at is, at the time, let's just say, would 12 be a fairly accurate number, 12 remote viewers that the US had at the time?

• 2:49:33Speaker 01

  Never at the same time, correct.

• 2:49:35Shawn Ryan?

  1%?

• 2:49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:37Shawn Ryan?

  So 12, less than 12 at any given particular time?

• 2:49:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:49:42Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. And Russia...

• 2:49:45Speaker 01

  And only a few of them at Fort Meade, Joe McMoneagle and Angela Ford, maybe one other person produced actionable intelligence. The rest of them didn't.

• 2:49:53Shawn Ryan?

  So we're talking three?

• 2:49:55Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah. Joe would be better off telling, or Angela better, yeah.

• 2:49:59Shawn Ryan?

  Less than 10?

• 2:50:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:02Shawn Ryan?

  They have 120.

• 2:50:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:50:05Shawn Ryan?

  What I'm asking...

• 2:50:06Speaker 01

  And they never show us results, not one result have I seen of their remote viewing.

• 2:50:10Shawn Ryan?

  So that could have been total bogus?

• 2:50:12Speaker 01

  Well, I did have a measure. Joe and I were there at the same time and we got to do a joint remote viewing with Elena Klimova and Joe. She was the top Russian remote viewer. She was damn good. And I had control of that, so I knew what was going on.

• 2:50:32Shawn Ryan?

  Same principles, same...

• 2:50:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, same.

• 2:50:35Shawn Ryan?

  Same testing, same...

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  Just what we did here.

• 2:50:38Shawn Ryan?

  And they developed that on their own?

• 2:50:41Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know about that, what they do when I'm not there. That was what I ran. I had control of everything. I don't know what they do on their own.

• 2:50:50Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, so they shared literally nothing?

• 2:50:52Speaker 01

  They never share anything.

• 2:50:56Speaker 01

  And Viktor said, it's part of the zeitgeist of Russian military. They never declassify anything. And I didn't show them any classified stuff at all, period.

• 2:51:11Shawn Ryan?

  Very interesting. Going back to, going back to SRI. You know, we're talking about, right now, we're talking about remote viewing. What, are there any other sensory? I mean, you were, basically, we're talking about non-lethal future-type weapons, correct? So, when it comes to remote viewing.

• 2:51:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:51:40Shawn Ryan?

  Were we researching anything else that maybe was similar to remote viewing that I don't know about?

• 2:51:46Speaker 01

  Well, there's been a lot of efforts in the field at large, parapsychology field at large, to look at remote sensing of various kinds. Like, can you separate different categories of music, for example? Joe did his first remote viewing ever on camera called "Put to the Test", and I have that video. That, the ABC people sent a person who's a location scout for movie industry out to me for two days worth of training about how to pick sites. Then my hand, my, I was hands-off after that.

• 2:52:30Speaker 01

  And she chose six sites about, around the Houston area. And it was, and it was done, the lawyers had control of it, so nobody could do anything, and so on. Long story short, Joe remote-viewed it and nailed this site, which happened to have been a Houston channel, Ocean Channel, for shipping. And right in the middle of the trial, a huge Russian vessel docked. Right in, right in the middle of the trial. Where there was an outbound experiment there, and Joe was back in the studio. But he nailed it.

• 2:53:12Speaker 01

  And he said, I hear loud noises from the thing. I have no idea what it is. There's something large there. I don't know what it is. Blew the mind of the interviewer who didn't buy the story to begin with. But I called up Joe, he called me rather, when it was all over. And I said, boy, congratulations. You did this remote viewing your first time ever on national television? How the hell do you do that? He said, do you think I did remote viewing on national television? I wouldn't do that. I did it over breakfast before I went to the studio.

• 2:53:45Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter when you do it, you know? You give yourself the tasking. They're gonna do something. I'll figure it out. Then he faked it on camera.

• 2:53:56Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Do you understand what I'm asking? Are we looking into anything that might be? I mean, remote viewing is, it's hard for people to believe. It's something that we still don't understand. And so what I'm asking is, are there other types of

• 2:54:18Shawn Ryan?

  ESP that we're looking into, other than remote viewing? That we don't, that I don't know about?

• 2:54:26Speaker 01

  Well, I think other people, I mean, the fields. There are 300 members of the parapsychological association. And I think almost none of them are doing remote viewing.

• 2:54:36Shawn Ryan?

  What are some of the other things they're researching?

• 2:54:38Speaker 01

  Well, there's the Gonsfeld, which is remote viewing like. But they're, they're all psychologists. That's why it's called parapsychology. So they're interested in, you know, what are the personality variables that make this person do good? Or is someone who is really creative, does that affect the performance in the Gonsfeld? And so on and so on. Those kinds of questions. Yeah. They're not looking at mechanism. We're the only group that I know of that is looking, trying to figure out the mechanism, how this works.

• 2:55:11Speaker 01

  In fact, Ray Hyman, in fact, there's a joke. The two biggest critics, and this is their true names. Hyman and Alcock. I swear to God, they're the critics of this field. But Ray Hyman was, I think he's still alive, a psychologist from the University of Oregon. I know the guy pretty well. And they formed an organization called PSYCOPS, the Committee to Investigate the Scientific Claims of the Paranormal. It's no longer that name, it's just called Skeptical Inquirer.

• 2:55:52Speaker 01

  But PSYCOPS, Jessica Ott's an amazing statistician. And she and I went to Buffalo at the 20th Congress of PSYCOPS. And Ray Hyman was giving a talk at the beginning, and he said to the assembled skeptics, "Do not underestimate parapsychologists, they are the best methodologists he's ever met." I went up to him after, I said, "Ray, my God, it took a lot of courage to do that." He said, "Yeah, but it's true." So even Ray, at that, in front of those people, said, "There are classes of things, we no longer need any further evidence for its existence.

• 2:56:36Speaker 01

  What we should be focusing on now is how the hell does it actually work?" And he's right.

• 2:56:41Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I interviewed a gentleman, John Alexander, and he was talking about spoon bending, he was talking about plants having consciousness, I mean, did you, were you a part of any of that type of research?

• 2:56:58Speaker 01

  None whatsoever, I would not be. Although there was a variation on it. Bev Humphley and I went covertly undercover. There was a course on spoon bending up at Lake Tahoe in California. So before going up there, I bought some really heavy-duty soup spoons that had the handles looked like a Greek letter, omega, which makes it damned hard to bend. Okay. So, uh, we get up there on a Friday night and it's three, Friday night, all day Saturday, all day Sunday, uh, as, um, food, sleep, and logic deprivation.

• 2:57:41Speaker 01

  Which turns out to be a big deal, so you don't get your head in it. And God help me, I've been telling you this. We're, we're sitting with pyramids on our head in front, underneath the big pyramid. And I tell people, you know, if you put your bananas under your pyramid, it'll be sharp enough to shave with later on. Um, and we got around to bending stuff at two in the morning. I mean, uh, early in the morning on Monday. I don't remember what time. And I'm sitting on the floor cross-legged and my whole body is falling asleep from my hips down. And I'm weaving the tines of forks into little knots. Nope. So I've no idea what's going on there.

• 2:58:24Speaker 01

  I'm not in a shape to know whether I'm, what I'm doing or not. I was conscious enough that the guy running the show, I came by me and I reached and grabbed one of our big spoons. And I said, "Can you bend this?" He said, "Oh, yeah." And he goes, "Phew." And he wrapped it around, um, not the ball of the spoon, but this part of the spoon. So driving home, I said to Bev, Van Punt, who was with me, I said, "Maybe we saw some genuine PK here." So, got back to SRI and one of the people on our projects, Gary Langford, um, is a metallurgist himself. Said, "Do you have any of those spoons left over?" I said, "Oh, yeah. Get me one." So he goes, "Phew." Does the same thing right in front of me. Says, "It's shock deformation."

• 2:59:07Speaker 01

  That if you do that and you hesitate, it'll freeze on you. But if you just keep going, you can do it. I learned how to do it then. I can't do it anymore, but I was able to do it myself. Thus went away my belief that we saw genuine PK. It's, it's, what, what was it? Shock what? Shock deformation. And how does that work? Well, you start it, like that. And if, if you start it and stop, nothing will happen. If you start it and keep going, it's easy to bend. The, it will feel like rubber or, or something really smooth.

• 2:59:44Shawn Ryan?

  And these are metals?

• 2:59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59:46Shawn Ryan?

  Metal smiths.

• 2:59:47Speaker 01

  Oh, you bet. These are the ones with the omega shape.

• 2:59:50Shawn Ryan?

  And he bent it?

• 2:59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59:52Shawn Ryan?

  And so, but there's a scientific explanation on how that happens.

• 2:59:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:59:58Shawn Ryan?

  Is there anything else you looked into that was, that was similar to any of this?

• 3:00:04Speaker 01

  No, that's the only weird stuff we ever looked into it. We didn't do healing. Because, you know, what defines healing?

• 3:00:13Shawn Ryan?

  Healing.

• 3:00:14Speaker 01

  Healing, helping sick people. And there are a lot of people doing that. For example, it was funded by an organization called the Samuel Lee Institute in Alexander, Virginia, run by a fellow that used to be part of NIH Alternative Medical Approach to Medicine. And so he was looking at these odd new medical things. One of which was a guy, he funded a guy at Duke University, who, I think it was Duke,

• 3:00:57Speaker 01

  yeah, in North Carolina, that, guy by the name of Mitch Krugoff, very clever, clever audiologist, not audiologist, a heart specialist. And Mitch wanted to know, good question, what other things could he do to improve his ability to help heart patients? So he had, I forget the number, how many other things they looked at, you know, vitamin, exercise, you know, diet and so on, one of which was intercessory prayer, people praying for their well-being. And they did a five-year study, they called it the Manta Project.

• 3:01:39Speaker 01

  And sure enough, after all things said and done, they did what's called a factor analysis to figure out, was there anything in this mishmash of a whole bunch of stuff that mattered? And the answer is yes, the only thing that mattered was intercessory prayer. And so, because Mitch is a well-known Chi, he got a $750,000 grant from NIH to study intercessory prayer in terms of, does it actually help his patients? So, it was pretty interesting because, what I didn't know, if you get funded by NIH, you can't have randomization done by somebody in the project.

• 3:02:20Speaker 01

  So there's kind of a satellite companies around medical schools who do nothing but randomize participants into control and, you know, effort groups. They don't even care what the study is. Okay. So he did this study, and one of the funniest damn things, there were solid Christians who wouldn't do this because there were non-Christians praying for help, praying for their help. Oh, please, come on. Turned out, it failed categorically. So I talked to Mitch Kruchkov about it, and I said, "That fits our model of decision augmentation." Meaning, that in the five years of, you had your people with a bias in favor of this

• 3:03:05Speaker 01

  working, pressing the buttons to randomize your people. Not cheating, I'm not accusing anybody of cheating, but using unconscious ESP to sort patients in such a way it looks like it was a genuine effect. But it's not. And since this other group was doing the randomization, they didn't give a damn. No wonder it didn't work. And I think my bet is, 50 years from now, the only part of Chi, one major part of Chi that will survive is this decision augmentation wall that we put together. And you should look up, you should get Jessica Utz to come here. She, I've known her for a really long time.

• 3:03:51Speaker 01

  Her name is Jessica Utz, U T T S. She used to be head of the department at, in statistics department at UC Irvine. I can send you her contact for her. I'll do it.

• 3:04:04Shawn Ryan?

  I'll reach out.

• 3:04:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, she is terrific. She has this ability to, she published a book called Seeing Through Statistics. And there's not one equation in the book. She wanted to have a book that people who read newspaper articles, who mention statistics can get some idea what the hell they're talking about. And I said, hey, how come you have all these trees in the damn cover of your book? She says, think about it. Oh, seeing through the trees forces, oh, please. She became in 2016, the chief statistician in the whole damn country.

• 3:04:45Speaker 01

  She was head of the American Statistical Association. Became chair of that. And I've got, I'll send you the link on my YouTube channel. She gave the presidential address, which was 70 minutes long. Seven minutes of it was her ability to say in front of this collective body, her belief in extrasensory perception and what she's done in that domain. I called her up and said, geez, you're brave. She says, no, I'm telling you the truth. And it's just a brilliant piece. And the introduction is longer than her talk in the seven minute section. I, I thought I knew her really well.

• 3:05:25Speaker 01

  We were good friends and spent time at her house and she and her longtime, not her husband, my be, common law husband, if it were. And we, she said, it has to happen. Very, very impressive. That's real stuff.

• 3:05:43Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to.

• 3:05:46Speaker 01

  She'd be good for you to interview.

• 3:05:47Shawn Ryan?

  Have a chat with her.

• 3:05:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05:50Shawn Ryan?

  That would be fascinating. So 1995, it sounds like Stargate came to an end. What was, what was the decision that led to that? Why, why did they end it?

• 3:06:05Speaker 01

  Good question. That's a really good question.

• 3:06:11Speaker 01

  First of all, there was what's called a CDA, Congressional Directed Activity. The Congress ordered the CIA to do a 20-year retrospective of this whole program. And if they felt that there was quality in this program, they were then to take over the program from DIA.

• 3:06:34Speaker 01

  Okay? And so they hired the American Institutes of Research to do the study. Supposed to be a 20-year retrospective. And they produced what's called AIR part, American Institutes of Research reports, very big document. They wouldn't give me a copy of it.

• 3:06:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:07:00Speaker 01

  They gave Jessica a copy. They had Jessica and Ray Hyman as counters to each other, skeptic and a believer.

• 3:07:08Speaker 01

  And I walked into Senator Cohen's office at the time, he was still senator, and I said, "Hey, I don't have a copy of the AIR report." He said, "Oh, here's mine, take it."

• 3:07:22Speaker 01

  He then said, "Do you think you can refute this?" And I said, "Well, yeah." And he said, "Well, write an article and pull no punches," which I did and got it published in the Journal of Parapsychology. Everything I said in that article was wrong.

• 3:07:42Speaker 01

  They only looked at one year instead of 20, that was correct, but that's not why they closed the program down. And it wasn't until we had released by the CIA all the stuff, they said why the program closed. What happened was, and we have the quotes, and it's in volume four of the Stargate Archives,

• 3:08:01Speaker 01

  that the Cold War was basically over, and the Congress was saying, "We've got all this money going to the intel community. We don't need to have that much money anymore." So the Congress ordered CIA to slim down, get rid of all these small programs.

• 3:08:17Speaker 01

  And if you don't do that, they threatened to close the CIA, actually. Not our view, that's released by the CIA themselves. And I think the reason it closed is that we just were on the chopping block along with a whole bunch of other programs.

• 3:08:35Speaker 01

  Negating everything I said in my original paper.

• 3:08:39Shawn Ryan?

  Man.

• 3:08:41Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think of that?

• 3:08:44Speaker 01

  Well, when a guy from the Pentagon and I spent with Joe ten years trying to get Stargate started again, the working staffs and defense analysts and so on loved the product that we had, but upper management said no.

• 3:09:07Speaker 01

  And I think that's too bad, especially with terrorism these days.

• 3:09:10Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:09:12Speaker 01

  Now, I'm convinced that no way in hell are they doing it secretly.

• 3:09:16Shawn Ryan?

  You don't think so?

• 3:09:17Speaker 01

  I do not. My clearances have all dissolved, so I don't really know.

• 3:09:22Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think they're not doing this? Under a different name, under a different program?

• 3:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I hope they are doing it, but I don't think so because there is so much pushback. The only reason our program survived is we had a bunch of heroes. John Glenn was a hero. Senator Cohen was a hero.

• 3:09:44Speaker 01

  Two other people, and I can't remember their names right now. They protected us from the wolves who were trying to shut us down. And same thing happened with 407 in Russia. They tried to shut him down and they were... The head of the general staff was supporting it, so they couldn't close it down. People are terrified of this stuff. In fact, Charlie Tart wrote a whole book about... Article, rather, not a book, about the fear of SAI. For example, if you really believed in telepathy, get out of my fucking head, man. I'm thinking about stuff that you have no business knowing what it should be. And people really get scared of that.

• 3:10:24Shawn Ryan?

  Do you believe in telepathy?

• 3:10:25Speaker 01

  I believe that it's impossible.

• 3:10:29Speaker 01

  And the reason is this. You and I are gonna do a telepathy experiment right now. I'm thinking of a number between one and a thousand. What is it?

• 3:10:39Speaker 01

  Come on, out with it.

• 3:10:40Shawn Ryan?

  Seven hundred and three.

• 3:10:42Speaker 01

  I take my pistol, shoot myself in the head. I carry myself to the grave, knowing you got the right answer. Oops, I just told you, you got the right answer. So the question is, where did you get the information? Did you get it out of my mind or the feedback? The only way I can prevent it, the only way you could possibly get it out of my mind is to kill myself.

• 3:11:06Speaker 01

  But the minute you find the answer, if you have access, if there's an answer book, which there isn't when I'm dead, you, um, it's not an experiment anymore.

• 3:11:19Shawn Ryan?

  Please help me understand what you're saying.

• 3:11:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:11:21Shawn Ryan?

  Because I'm not, I'm not receiving it.

• 3:11:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:11:26Shawn Ryan?

  You pick a number from one through a thousand. I say seven hundred and three, you kill yourself. Why do you kill yourself?

• 3:11:32Speaker 01

  Because if I say, you got it right. Then the question is, from where did you get the information? Out of my mind or from the feedback you got later?

• 3:11:42Shawn Ryan?

  What feedback?

• 3:11:44Speaker 01

  I told you the answer. You got it right, that's feedback.

• 3:11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you were precognitive enough, you'd look into the future, you're getting a pat on the top of your head because you got the answer right. Whatever, the way to think about this, if you were in college and a scuzzball and you're having an important exam that is going to affect the rest of your life, so you sneak into the professor's office and there's an answer book in there from the questionnaire and you study it really carefully or maybe even photograph it, boy, you're going to do really well on the exam. Suppose you could do that precognitively, you're going to do really well on the psychic exam, so to speak. In fact, we use that terminology in our writing, peeking into the answer book. If it, if, if a study does not have an answer, it's not a study.

• 3:12:38Speaker 01

  Now, the answer may not be what you want. It may be different than what you want, but there is some result. And the result, we consider as the answer book. And you have access to that by precognition. That, in fact, Srinath and I wrote a paper together collapsing the problem space of informational psi, people getting information by psychic means.

• 3:13:00Shawn Ryan?

  So are you saying I looked into the future to get 703, saw you tell me, "Good job."

• 3:13:06Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:13:07Shawn Ryan?

  Came back.

• 3:13:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:13:08Shawn Ryan?

  Said the number.

• 3:13:09Speaker 01

  Yep. Now, if I'd kill myself, you'd never get that. Now, we didn't invent this kind of stuff. I mean, we concretized it by doing the arithmetic and all the stuff that you need to do to make sure that it's real. It simplifies things. Precognition simplifies the whole game. And we don't know how to stop looking into the future. You could say, "Well, I'm getting it from direct." Well, how do you know? You don't know that. The big mystery is how the hell the information gets there in the first place. For example, Srinath in India is going to generate from a collection of photographs,

• 3:13:52Speaker 01

  one photograph tomorrow, but you're going to remote view it today. How the hell does that work? And it turns out, we figured out to divide the problem space into two. Two and a half, actually. Problem space number one, how does that information get from India tomorrow to right here today? That is 100% a physics problem. Doesn't depend upon my nose, or me, or you, or anybody. It's a physics problem, and they worry about it. In fact, there's even a whole discipline supported by the American Institute of Physics called quantum retrocausation. It is possible for information to go backward in time, from the future to the present,

• 3:14:35Speaker 01

  but the present cannot go backward in time to the past. Don't worry about why that's the case, but it's true.

• 3:14:42Shawn Ryan?

  I want to know why that's the case.

• 3:14:44Speaker 01

  Because the past is quantum mechanics. The system has already been measured. It's collapsed. The state vector has collapsed. You can't undo.

• 3:14:55Shawn Ryan?

  What's been done.

• 3:14:56Speaker 01

  What's been done. But until it's been done, it can influence the present. Now, that doesn't mean the way it works, but at least it's a plausibility argument, how the physics domain. There's a guy in physics department, excuse me, of Amsterdam, in university there, called Eric Ferlanda. And he said we should throw away gravity as a force. It's not a force, which it isn't. It's geometry. And there's a real problem with gravity. There's no quantum base to it. So the four basic forces, that's the only one that doesn't have a quantum mechanical base. So let's get rid of that

• 3:15:40Speaker 01

  and talk about entropy. And he derived Einstein field equations, Newton's equations, and all the stuff of physics based on entropy. And I want to go talk to this guy because if it's an entropic force, then there's a carrier. The problem is, every... Excuse me. Everything that we know about and getting information that can be used has a carrier associated with it. You are listening to me and getting information because the carrier is the sound waves going to your eardrums. If you have an alarm clock going off in a vacuum chamber,

• 3:16:23Speaker 01

  you can't hear it. So we need some carrier right now, and we have no idea what it might be, of information coming backward in time. But Ferlanda has an idea that might be worthy of thought. So that's half the problem, let alone how it gets into your brain. But once it's in the brain... By the way, the physics people can worry about and not care about extrasensory perception. That's a physics problem. All right, once it's in the brain, leave aside how it got there for a moment, then it's a neuroscience problem. They don't give a damn how it got there. And there the article we wrote, uh, working with the Brazilian folks,

• 3:17:05Speaker 01

  this is testable about hyperconductivity in the brain and the white matter and so on, blah, blah, blah, all this technical stuff. It's testable, might be wrong, but at least it's testable. The problem is what transfers whatever this is coming in into something the brain can recognize. We know about retinas in our eyes, we know about the sensory systems in our nose and so on, but we don't know a psychic retina, so to speak, for remote viewing. What do you think it is? No idea, I really have no idea. I mean, you don't lose sleep at night thinking about this? Oh, I, I think about it all the time. You don't have theories? I, I'm not smart enough, I'm not a theorist, that's the problem. You felt figure it out, test it.

• 3:17:52Speaker 01

  It's a very difficult, well, what we're hoping for, and that's why we're taking Angela to, um, um, do what's called a case study, just her, mushing her hand to an MRI machine. If we are lucky, I mean, really lucky, her brain will be different, um, quantitatively different than large number of base brains that they look at. Uh, highly unlikely that it will be, but if it is different, then we can say, well, it's different because of this, this, this, that, and the other thing. That gives us a clue of how to see whether we can find psychics that way.

• 3:18:28Speaker 01

  Wow. Yeah, wow, big time. We're not counting on it by any stretch. A better approach to find subjects is to, um, get involved in the synesthesia community, because since I, I mentioned over breakfast that all of our participants are, have synesthesia. What is that? That's where you get crosstalk in your sensory systems. You, um, see black and white things in color, um, and so on. It's crosstalk of your sensory systems. Oh, we spoke about this at the beginning. We spoke about that when you hear music and feel it in your, okay, okay.

• 3:19:08Shawn Ryan?

  Man, I can't just, I mean, it's almost like there's some type of unknown organ that's at work, that's receiving that information, just like your nose, ears, eyes, mouth.

• 3:19:20Speaker 01

  Well, probably it's gonna be more distributed than that. In fact, the only thing that I'm aware of, and I could be wrong on this one, that the only, the Russians are big on identifying each part of the brain is associated with some behavior, and that's simply not true, with one exception. That is, there's a very small part of our brain which is dedicated to face recognition.

• 3:19:45Speaker 01

  And Russell Targ, for example, that part is not functioning for him. He can go to a party with his wife and not recognize her from other tall, similar women, because he cannot recognize her face. The same with me. So if we're meeting for lunch, I'll, he'll hear my voice. I'll say, "Hey, Russ, good to see you again." At least he knows it's me. And that's a very standard problem. Some people have this, that for reasons unknown, that part of their brain is not functioning properly. So I don't expect a little chunk over here for consciousness, another little chunk over here for liking salt.

• 3:20:28Speaker 01

  You know, seriously, what, this conversation with you has inspired me to maybe not resign, quit. It's too much fun.

• 3:20:36Shawn Ryan?

  Keep going, keep going. You know,

• 3:20:41Shawn Ryan?

  with everything that you've studied and, and, and, are there any key?

• 3:20:50Shawn Ryan?

  Are there any key things that make you believe everything that you've studied? You know, over the, over the course of forty-nine years?

• 3:20:58Speaker 01

  It's, it's not

• 3:21:01Speaker 01

  an event. It's, it's collectiveness, the whole thing. I mean, for me, it's self-evident of this, the number of successes in the operational work.

• 3:21:13Speaker 01

  We're not cheating with that, and, you know, there are skeptical people in your business looking at this, and, "Hey, we want to come back with more study." I mean, even the CIA came back with us forty-one times with new missions. They wouldn't do that if it weren't useful to them.

• 3:21:28Shawn Ryan?

  After it was shut down?

• 3:21:30Speaker 01

  Uh, no, before it was shut down. Yeah.

• 3:21:34Speaker 01

  So, um, no, it's more the collective thing. For me, probably the most convincing evidence is that nineteen, seventeen of the nineteen end-users came back with more, wanting more, more stuff. Now, we can go to statistics and Jessica will bore you to tears on statistics, but nobody buys statistics. Why bother?

• 3:22:00Speaker 01

  Good question.

• 3:22:05Speaker 01

  I've thought a lot about that because, you know, I've put a lot of effort in, so a lot of colleagues around. I mean, I don't want to give the impression I'm the only guy doing this. I'm not, by any stretch.

• 3:22:20Speaker 01

  I guess I'm relying on Chuck Honerton's view of that, and I tend to agree with it, that we may, we humans are faced with really interesting questions about do we survive our deaths, for example. Everybody's interested in that, including me. Can I have a brief comment on that before I go a little further? I was invited as to be a participant at the Ramakrishna Mission Institute of Culture in Kolkata, India. I was the resident materialist of the bunch, and, long story short, there was a, one of their monks was beating up on me and saying that there's something called promissory materialism. I don't know if you've ever heard that term.

• 3:23:03Speaker 01

  I, you're right, I can't give a right time an equation for love, but I promise you by next Thursday at two in the afternoon, well, maybe a thousand years from next Tuesday, we'll have an answer, right? But, so he started defending me on that, promissory materialism. And he was a bright guy, totally fluent in English and, and in PowerPoint, useful. So, I went up to him afterwards. I said, "Swamiji..." Your whole philosophy, I love much better than mine. That you survive your death and you get to do all this other stuff. I wish that were true. Mine is last breath and that's it. And I said, but you have to modernize. You're basically getting on philosophy with 3,000 years old.

• 3:23:44Speaker 01

  And that was before we knew about brains and about genetics and all that good stuff. He said, you have to modernize that. And we worked for about five years together, he and I, over the net. Over, over, it wasn't Zoom in those days, email. To try to figure out ways in which to modernize this. And we figured out he couldn't do it. So it remains in the realm of philosophy. At least, he was interested in it and so was I. So that was a sidestep. But you asked me, why do it?

• 3:24:24Speaker 01

  Because I think humans, including me, want to know the answers to these more spiritually oriented questions. Do we actually survive our death? Or better yet, how do we communicate with one another? We need to do a hell of a lot better job than we're doing now, for sure. And things of that nature. What is consciousness? Is Tanoni right about consciousness? And all of those questions, maybe psi research as it currently exists, may not answer those questions. But at least it's no new tools in the toolbox that someone later on will be able to use them and help them answer those questions.

• 3:25:03Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think consciousness is?

• 3:25:06Speaker 01

  I think it's an emergent property of our brain. Straightforward. And Tanoni, you know, I buy Tanoni's story tremendously. I will send you a link to that book, by the way. You should, you should get it. It's fabulous.

• 3:25:21Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you. Thank you. Edwin, we're wrapping up the interview. And, you know, with all the stuff that you've been involved with and, and all of your studies, outside of remote viewing.

• 3:25:40Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think we should be looking into?

• 3:25:43Speaker 01

  As humans, you mean?

• 3:25:46Shawn Ryan?

  Is there anything that's come across your radar that you think that has to do with the subject?

• 3:25:52Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 3:25:53Shawn Ryan?

  It could not, it could be totally random, but what I'm asking, you know, when it comes to ESP, human sensory, what haven't we touched? What do people not know about? What should we be looking into?

• 3:26:06Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I mean, I, you know, if I knew what we haven't touched, I'd go touch it.

• 3:26:14Speaker 01

  I'm more concerned politically, where we're, where we're at as a culture, not only our country, but similar countries around the world. And that's a big threat to everybody. And this stuff's not going to help that at all, I don't think.

• 3:26:28Speaker 01

  But that, to me, is a bigger worry for me at the moment.

• 3:26:34Shawn Ryan?

  I think that's a worry for a lot of us.

• 3:26:36Speaker 01

  No kidding.

• 3:26:40Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Ed, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on.

• 3:26:45Speaker 01

  My pleasure. It was far more interesting than I thought it would be, to tell you the truth.

• 3:26:50Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man, I could, I could go on here, but, um.

• 3:26:55Speaker 01

  How long have we been at this?

• 3:26:57Shawn Ryan?

  We've been going for about five hours now.

• 3:26:59Speaker 01

  Oh, jeez.

• 3:27:00Shawn Ryan?

  So, before, in between four and five hours.

• 3:27:04Speaker 01

  Doesn't feel that way at all, actually.

• 3:27:06Shawn Ryan?

  Goes by quick, doesn't it? But is there anything that I should be asking you that I haven't asked so far?

• 3:27:12Speaker 01

  What do I do for fun?

• 3:27:15Shawn Ryan?

  What do you do for fun?

• 3:27:17Speaker 01

  Well, I used to play a lot of golf. I'm horrible at it, but I still like to play it. My wife tricked me into it, damn it. Because I said, I'm not a Republican, I don't own one pair of checkered pants, buzz off.

• 3:27:31Speaker 01

  So she conned me into it, carrying her clubs one day, and I said, oh, jeez. And you're a physicist. Trouble is, being a physicist and knowing about golf, those are incompatible. You should not worry about in your head what's happening to the ball and how it's going to, no. The other thing is I do a lot of walking in San Francisco Bay Area, long distances, 11 miles at a crack.

• 3:27:57Shawn Ryan?

  That's pretty amazing for.

• 3:28:01Shawn Ryan?

  Can I say your age?

• 3:28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 3:28:03Shawn Ryan?

  An eighty-three-year-old man, you look.

• 3:28:05Speaker 01

  No, you screwed it. Eighty-four.

• 3:28:07Shawn Ryan?

  Eighty-four?

• 3:28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:28:08Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 3:28:11Shawn Ryan?

  We are in amazing health.

• 3:28:12Speaker 01

  No, I'm on my eighty-fourth trip around the sun. I've been there. It's boring. Same old sun.

• 3:28:18Shawn Ryan?

  One last question.

• 3:28:19Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 3:28:20Shawn Ryan?

  With all of the remote viewing and I've listened to...

• 3:28:28Shawn Ryan?

  I researched Joe for a long time before he finally came out here. And there was a lot of stuff when it comes to outer space, are we alone, that kind of stuff. What do you think about that? Are we alone?

• 3:28:44Speaker 01

  Well,

• 3:28:47Speaker 01

  who is it? I forget.

• 3:28:51Speaker 01

  Long since-dead philosopher, semi-philosopher. He said, his view was, "We're serially alone," which is pretty interesting. And the way he worded that was, "We've been only to announce ourselves as a species to outer space since the invention of radio." So if there are other critters out there, and the probability of critters being there is virtually unity. If you look at the total number of... First of all, the number of galaxies, the number of stars in each galaxy, and the number of planets that are M-class planets like Earth. I mean, the probability that there's life elsewhere is, in my view, damn near unity, for sure. Now, whether we'll be able to meet it, this is another question. But,

• 3:29:36Speaker 01

  Carl Sagan. And what he said, "We're serially alone." Because in the years that it's been, what, one hundred and fifty years since we had radio? And intelligent species like we are, we're gonna put ourselves out of business very quickly with global warming. We're gonna kill ourselves off. So give us a thousand years from the invention of a radio, the next thousand years, we're all be gone. He says, "That's inherent to other species as well." So what's the probability of two one-thousand-year chunks in five billion years? It's very small that they're all that. Pretty interesting argument. Whether it's true or not, who the hell knows?

• 3:30:15Shawn Ryan?

  That is an interesting argument. I've never thought of it like that.

• 3:30:20Speaker 01

  Because we are, I mean, we're, no one's paying, I mean, we are very, I wrote my first paper, scientific paper, in the Journal of Geophysical Research in 1962, on upper atmospheric heating by high-altitude water vapor. And we even knew then that we are in a climate shift. We had no idea then, back then, that as humans were involved in it, now there's no question.

• 3:30:45Shawn Ryan?

  Well, thank you.

• 3:30:46Speaker 01

  I won't be around long enough to know whether we're burning ourselves up.

• 3:30:51Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Edwin, I just want to say it was an honor to interview you and sit here and have this conversation and, um...

• 3:30:58Speaker 01

  The honor is returned to you, sir. Thank you.

• 3:31:00Shawn Ryan?

  I am, thank you. Very happy that we've met, and I just wish you the best.

• 3:31:06Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.