The 'F' in FDA Is Silent" — The State of Food Policy with Helena Bottemiller-Evich

If you've been trying to figure out what's actually happening with our food system right now — what's rhetoric, what's real, and what you need to know, this is the episode you've been waiting for. Award winning food journalist, Helena Bottemiller Evich has covered food policy in Washington for over 15 years. She's the founder of the Food Fix newsletter and the host of the new podcast American Dish, and she has a rare gift: she can separate the noise from the action in a news cycle that makes both very hard to tell apart. For more resources related to today’s episode, visit the podcast episode page: https://www.drmindypelz.com/ep339 https://www.drmindypelz.com/ep339/ Connect with Helena Bottemiller-Evich: Sign up for Helena's newsletter: foodfix.co http://foodfix.coHelena's Instagram: @heleenabena https://www.instagram.com/heleenabena/American Dish Instagram: @americandishpodcast https://www.instagram.com/americandishpodcast/LinkedIn: Food Fix Co https://www.linkedin.com/company/food-fix-co/LinkedIn: Helena Bottemiller-Evich https://www.linkedin.com/in/helena-bottemiller-evich/X: @foodfixco https://x.com/foodfixcoX: @hbottemiller https://x.com/hbottemiller Connect with Dr. Mindy: Join Reset Academy https://resetacademy.drmindypelz.com/reset-academy?utm_source=libsyn&utm_medium=podcast&utm_term=&utm_content=loc-description&utm_campaign=reset-academyWatch the episodes on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@DrMindyPelz?sub_confirmation=1Follow Dr. Mindy on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dr.mindypelz/Subscribe to Dr. Mindy’s newsletter https://www.drmindypelz.com/ Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice. Always consult a qualified healthcare professional before making changes to your diet, fasting routine, or lifestyle.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mindy Pelz?

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• 0:45Mindy Pelz?

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• 1:29Mindy Pelz?

  They are definitely one of the top supplement companies in the world. So if you want to try it, check it out. You can learn more and get some for yourself at drmindypels.standarprocess.com. That's drmindypels.standarprocess.com. Enjoy.

• 1:53Mindy Pelz?

  On this episode of the Resetter Podcast, I am bringing you Helena Bottemiller-Evich. And if you're not familiar with her, you're going to fall in love with her, I promise you, because she's doing incredible work in the world when it comes to helping us all understand food policy. So here's a little bit of a background on her. She is the founder and editor in chief of Food Fix. She previously led coverage of food and agriculture at Politico for nearly a decade, winning numerous awards for her work, including a prestigious George Polk Award for a series on climate change, and two James Beard Awards for features on nutrition and science.

• 2:38Mindy Pelz?

  And we've been following her, my husband and I, for many years to help inform ourselves on the food system here in America. And so we are at a really pivotal moment when it comes to ultra-processed foods. And there is a lot of conflicting information out there about the food system, what is actually being accomplished in this current administration as far as overturning or changing the food system, or even making the food system worse. And so I wanted to bring Helena to talk to us all about what do we need to know about the food we eat.

• 3:19Mindy Pelz?

  So I promise you, this is a very entertaining discussion. We are not taking a political stance. This is looking at both sides of the policy argument. When it comes to food, we address everything from the chemicals that are in our foods to glyphosate laws and what we need to know about that, to was the food pyramid helpful for us on an individual level? And I really wanted to have this conversation because so much of what I do is educate you all on eating good food. And one of the hardest things that I find is, how do I explain to you?

• 4:01Mindy Pelz?

  The vast amount of harmful chemicals that are poured into our food system that are causing chronic disease and what is actually being accomplished at a policy level. So it's a little bit of a steer away from do this so you can feel healthier. This is a very pivotal episode that I really felt like it was important for us all to understand what chemicals are being put into our food, what the chemical policies are changing currently, and most importantly, what can we do in a world where there are

• 4:43Mindy Pelz?

  massive cancer causing chemicals, there are massive amounts of chemicals that are causing weight gain and chronic disease. What can we do on an individual level to protect ourselves, our family, and keep ourselves healthy in this moment? So it's a complex discussion. It's an important discussion. And for those of you that really want to understand what you're eating, what is in your foods, and what we all can do to create a world where food is safe, this is the episode for you. Enjoy.

• 5:23Mindy Pelz?

  So here's the million dollar question. This is a loaded one.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 5:27Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, ready? What do we need to know in 2026 about our food system? Where are we right now with regulation, with the food quality? What do we need to know today?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  I think right now, the moment that we're in, so I mean, I've been covering food policy here in Washington for more than 15 years. So I've seen a lot of the arc of the last like decade plus of the conversation around food policy. And frankly, a lot of that has been driven by critics, reformers, people who want us to have a different food system, right? They argue our food system is unsustainable, that, you know, we need to be thinking more about human health, the environment.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Together, when we are talking about food and ag production, often we don't think about it that way, right? Like, we have run our food system in a very, you know, I think we have gotten the food that we have asked the food system to give us, which is cheap. A lot of calories. We have more than enough calories in the US. We have kind of gotten the expected result. But we have really high rates of chronic disease. And the thing I've seen change the most in the last, like, year and a half is just how many more people, consumers in the US are interested in these issues. So I think the the interest has been bubbling for a while. Like, we've seen, obviously, we saw Michelle Obama talking about food at a very high level.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  We've had the critiques from, you know, Michael Pollan and Marion Nussle and Eric Schlosser. We've, we've, we've had this, like, bubbling up of interest and conversation and critique. And it, I think we've hit a new level of awareness and conversation in the last 18 months. And now the question is, what, if anything, is actually going to change? And that's really where I focus my reporting is, let's separate, you know, the rhetoric from the action. And I think that's what's hard right now. That's what's hard to, like, parse out.

• 7:27Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. You know, it's interesting, I, when I was in clinical practice around, I was in practice for over 30 years, I literally would take my patients to the grocery store and I would show them, like, this is the organic aisle, this is non-GMO, can we, you know, I'd teach them what that was. I would look at the label, I'd be like, here's what you need to know about the label. And I was just shocked at how many people didn't even know how to read a label. And this was, you know, 15 years ago that I was making these trips to the grocery store with my patients. And it was like a wake-up moment for them, like, and, and the most common question I

• 8:06Mindy Pelz?

  got, and this is the one I'm gonna ask you, is, when we go to read a label, there's a bunch of words in there that we don't understand. Why is that allowed? And is there anything we can do to become more educated, to know what those chemicals are? And should we just avoid food with labels altogether?

• 8:31Speaker 01

  So I think we're in a moment where consumers are absolutely asking more of those questions when they go to the grocery store. Like even if they don't have someone like you, you know, walking them through the process, they might be using an app. There's so many apps now that you can scan. I know there's one that's really popular in France that's catching on more in the US called, I think it's called Yucca. And RFK Jr. says he uses this app when he shops, not to like endorse the app, but it's one that's out there and really is being used more widely because a lot of consumers will see, you know, a name they don't understand or they don't recognize. And, you know, it might be a vitamin. It might be something they're not actually concerned about consuming. Or it might be

• 9:14Speaker 01

  a chemical that hasn't had a lot of FDA scrutiny and there are concerns about it. You know, maybe health advocates have raised concerns about it and they do want to avoid it. And so some of these tech tools are helping consumers like sift through, like, what am I actually concerned about? What am I okay with? And kind of getting that more of that literacy and awareness. And I think it's really hard. Like we get so much information. We are bombarded with information on social media. You know, we see all the headlines about ultra-processed foods, even deciding what is an ultra-processed food and what isn't is hard. It's hard for me. I'm a reporter covering these issues and it is not always clear to me like where the line is. And so I have a lot of empathy

• 9:59Speaker 01

  for consumers because it's, you know, I think we are at this point now where we understand that what we eat is so important and that what we eat as a country is, you know, linked to our really high rates of chronic disease. But then how you take action is, a lot of it's, a lot of the time it's up to the individual consumers. And I think consumers are left in this like very

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Confusing soup of information. So the awareness is there and I think sometimes what's hard is sifting through the noise, figuring out how you're gonna take action for yourself. And then, you know, I really focus on policy and we see all this consumer interest and excitement. And what's less clear is whether or not we're gonna see federal policies to follow that and to start to change some of the food environment that we are in. And, you know, maybe the Trump administration is actually looking at doing front of pack labeling, which might help consumers identify whether or not they want to eat a food from the front of pack.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  This is actually something the Biden administration had proposed initially. Those are the kinds of things that I'm really watching to see, do we, do we actually get policy change from this moment? Because I think consumers are calling for some level of change. We just saw a poll that Maha itself, a lot of the ideas within Maha, or Make America Healthy Again, if you haven't been following this, this acronym, is pretty popular, like regardless of party. And so that's new. That's like a new thing that we're seeing this sort of, you know, independents, Republicans, Democrats are in favor of some of these ideas. I think the food stuff is much more popular than some of the other issues within Maha.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  But we, you know, we see consumers really lit up about this. And I think once a voter, a consumer starts to have some awareness, I don't see how you put that back in the bottle.

• 12:04Mindy Pelz?

  That's well said.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  So I don't know what's next, but I feel like the awareness is likely to continue. So it'll be interesting to see where it goes.

• 12:14Mindy Pelz?

  I think the, one of the things that I, when I would actually go through labels, and again, this was 10, 15 years ago, it's a whole new world now. The biggest thing I got from people was how, how can they put these cancer-causing chemicals in our food? And you have been known, perhaps your most famous quote is the, and I think- I'm quoting you right. If I'm not quoting you right, you tell me. But you have been given credit for the F is silent in the FDA. And I've even gone on, and I don't know if it was in reading your articles. I think it's really crazy that we have food and drug in the same administration. That seems like a conflict of interest.

• 12:55Mindy Pelz?

  So, you know, can you just address for the person who might be listening to this and going, wait, aren't they, isn't the FDA protecting me and making sure that all the ingredients in food is safe for me? What does that consumer need to know?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're referring to a big investigation I did when I was at Politico back in 2022. And if anyone wants to read it, you can Google, I think it's like FDA food failure. And it'll be the first thing that comes up. You can read it. It's, it's long and has a lot of chapters on different topics. And that story was really meant to show consumers kind of the state of FDA.

• 13:35Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  As it regulates food. And the overall theme was that it takes decades to pull things from the market that are concerning.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  The FDA lacks, I think, a culture of leaning in and sort of being protective of consumers. Many times it lacks resources. I don't think we've ever resourced the side, the food side of FDA commensurate with the job we expect that agency to be doing. So the FDA is overseeing 80% of the food supply, which depending on how you're measuring it, it's probably like a $2 trillion industry includes hundreds of thousands of food facilities across the globe. And they have a pretty small staff that are, that is in charge of that. So I think there's cultural problems, there's structural ones. And then just the way that FDA oversees food is so different than the way drugs are overseen.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  So the way drugs are overseen, you have to prove using quite a bit of data that a drug is effective and safe. Now, of course, we've seen situations where they got it wrong and things are pulled later. I'm not saying it's like a foolproof system, but there's a pretty high bar. You know, it takes years, a lot of R and D to get a drug to market. The food side is very different. It's much more hands off. Most food chemicals make it to market under a system known as generally recognized as safe or grass, which technically a food company doesn't even have to tell FDA if they've determined that a food is generally recognized as safe. It was sort of meant as this

• 15:16Speaker 01

  common sense policy that has sort of become activists like to call it the loophole that ate the rule. So now most food chemicals get to market this way. So FDA is not actually approving these food chemicals. They don't actually, they're often not told. Many of the big players that are more responsible, they do notify FDA and say, hey, you know, can you look at the science? And FDA will say, oh, we have no questions. But even that is not an approval, right? It's not like a pre-market approval. Usually when you explain this to people, they're like, that can't be how that works.

• 15:50Mindy Pelz?

  Right, exactly. I mean, it's

• 15:51Speaker 01

  But it is, yeah.

• 15:52Mindy Pelz?

  I've studied grass for a long time because I've wanted to figure out what was in that category. And like, like, I don't know if you said this. Yeah. Yeah. Natural flavorings. I used to tell my patients that like, that means nothing. Like, natural flavorings.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Who knows what's in that? Yeah.

• 16:07Mindy Pelz?

  Who knows what's there? But they, you know, the generally recognized as safe, you know, it's like, like, we're, every chemical is innocent until proven guilty with the Food Administration. Have we, have we changed that at all? Do you see any sign that that might be, there might be creating a different structure there?

• 16:27Speaker 01

  So, this has been a major issue for HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He talked a lot about grass before he merged with President Trump to create this new Maha Alliance. It's really like Maha and MAGA kind of married up in this very Complicated marriage. But he, this is one issue. Yeah, so when we're putting it, we could get into like the marital spats that are being had right now. But Kennedy has talked about grass a lot. And this is one place where FDA is moving a regulation. So they have FDA has submitted some inside baseball.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  FDA has submitted a regulation to the White House for review that seeks to close the so-called grass loophole. So we don't know exactly what they're going to do, but think maybe it would include mandatory notification of grass determinations, just so FDA has more oversight. FDA does not have a, currently have a list of all the substances that are on the market. Oh, that are in that. Because, well, because they don't have to be notified. And so if you created that, you know, that requirement, then that would give FDA more, more of a window into what is actually on the market. So that's one thing they could do. We don't know when that's going to be proposed.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  There's still like a long, rulemaking takes a long time, even when an administration wants to move something forward. And the food industry is at the White House right now, you know, arguing that this, that, you know, more oversight of grass would hamper innovation. They're even kind of threatening that FDA might be overstepping its authority, which is something that makes FDA very nervous. They don't want to get sued. They don't want to get their hands tied. So we are in a moment where it looks like the administration is going to move forward on this, but we are, I saw Kennedy recently say that he had closed the grass loophole. That is not true. They have not closed the grass loophole. They are taking some steps forward toward potentially closing the grass loophole.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  And, you know, consumer advocates, folks on the left have supported doing this for a long time. So it is one of those issues where there is, I think, a fair amount of bipartisan support. It's not particularly controversial, although it is very controversial within the food industry.

• 18:52Mindy Pelz?

  Can I be honest with you for just a second? So many of the women who have come to me have literally already tried everything. They've done the diets, they've worked themselves out to death, they've done the programs, they've diligently followed the advice of their doctors, and yet they are still exhausted. They are still hormonally lost. They are still wondering why nothing seems to work for them. And here's what I've learned after two and a half decades of working with women. It's not a willpower problem, I promise you. It's an education problem.

• 19:33Mindy Pelz?

  Your body has a very specific set of needs, and most health advice out there was never designed with those needs in mind. And so this is exactly why I built my Reset Academy. It's my monthly membership community where I teach you how to use fasting, food, and lifestyle to genuinely work with your female biology. Every month you get new trainings, live Q and As with my team and I, and a community of incredible women who are all in it with you. They're doing the work, they're seeing the results, and the best part is they're cheering each other on.

• 20:15Mindy Pelz?

  If you're ready to stop guessing and start actually understanding your body and finally getting results, come join us over there. All you have to do is head over to resetacademy. drmindypelz.com And I would love to see you inside the community and help you accomplish your health goals and fall in love with your body again. So that's resetacademy. DrMindy.com

• 20:45Mindy Pelz?

  And how much is the resistance to create some barriers around these chemicals? How much is that profit driven? That the administration doesn't want to have any more corporate restrictions? Because these companies that are making these chemicals and using these chemicals. I think there, I want to make sure I'm not jumping to conclusions, but it feels like there is a big food culture that is invested in profits and more than health.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Well, I think they're definitely making that argument. The food companies are making the argument that this would be costly, that this would make it harder to get products to market, which is probably true. Like it would create more barriers to get to getting to market. You know, right now, we have a situation where other countries, if there's like an innovation, like sell cultivated meat or some sort of really high tech thing, they'll bring it to the US because it's easier to get on the market than it is elsewhere. And so, you know, it takes less time. And I think you can argue that there are some reasons why that would be good. You can get really great things to market.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  But like, I think the bottom line here is that the current system cannot be defended with consumers. Consumers are not okay with how the system is working. And we are now seeing this sort of bipartisan agreement that something needs to change. One thing I've noticed is that Kennedy and the Maha movement, I think, well, particularly the Trump administration, they are actually showing a lot of willingness to call out big food, to like bash the big food companies. What I'm not seeing is their willingness to call out more of the agriculture side. And I think that speaks a little bit to how much more powerful the agriculture groups are on Capitol Hill compared to the food industry.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  The food industry in a way is much more splintered because there's a lot of food companies that aren't sure how to respond to the Maha moment we're in. You know, there's ones that are more maybe forward thinking and are like, okay, let's reformulate, let's, you know, lean in, maybe let's make some changes. Like they might. Disagree with the idea that you should just fight on everything. And so when you have disagreement within an industry about how to move forward, their lobby is actually weakened. And so I think we're seeing this kind of split between the way the Trump administration is talking about the food industry and the way they're talking about the agriculture. Folks, it's very interesting.

• 23:25Mindy Pelz?

  One of the interesting things I thought about the Maha movement is the awareness it brought, like just the fact that we had to make America, yeah. And I think we could, everybody, you know, needs to step out of their political belief system and just acknowledge that that was really great that we could create this awareness. And at the same time, there was so much talk about food dyes, and that became the center focus. How far have they actually gotten on the food dye issue? And are they the first movement to do that? Or was that, I know Michelle Obama was

• 24:04Mindy Pelz?

  very passionate about food, the food system. Is there an enhancement of what she had already started at all going on?

• 24:14Speaker 01

  So yeah, this is a really good question. I think there's so much confusion about what this administration has and hasn't done on food dyes. So they talk about food dyes as if they have rid them from the food supply. I think it's understandable that consumers get the perception that they've been banned, but that is not the case. The administration has said to the food industry, we want these out. So we want you to phase them out. They basically said, we, you know, phase them out. They've asked them to phase them out. And somewhere around half of the food companies, or maybe if you measured it by volume, have agreed to phase them out.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  So half of them have not. We have not been able to get an answer of like, what's going to happen if food companies either committed to get them out and don't, because we've actually seen this happen before. Food companies have committed to getting them out and then didn't, or went back on it. And so We're not sure what the forcing mechanism is. West Virginia had actually banned the major synthetic food dyes, which really set a deadline for the food industry. Because you're not going to not sell M&Ms in West Virginia. Like, you can't make special M&Ms just for West Virginia. But that's tied up in court right now. And so we don't know where that's going to head. I would say the administration has put a lot of pressure on food companies to get these dyes out. States are also putting pressure.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  A lot of states are looking at things like banning synthetic food dyes out of school meals. And that puts pressure on manufacturers to then just reformulate out of them. The Trump administration has also approved more alternatives. So food colorings that are made from other ingredients that are not synthetic. And so we are moving in that direction. But by no means has this administration banned them. And I think still for the next, like, for the foreseeable future, we're still going to have those brightly colored things on the market that, you know, my six-year-old loves.

• 26:20Mindy Pelz?

  I was just gonna say.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  He wants the bright, the brighter the color, the more my kid wants it.

• 26:26Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, it's so funny. My, my son, who's now 23, when he played Little League, when he was about eight or nine, you know, I'd go to, after the game, and his tongue would be completely blue because they had given him something. After a while, I was like, you can't do this sport anymore. And he's like, why? And I'm like, it turns your tongue blue. We can't be doing this sport. We ended up going over to soccer where they don't give, you know, toxic treats at the end.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 26:51Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think the food dyes definitely, I mean, this is where it's intriguing because Maha got some of these concepts right. And they really brought forward a powerful awareness. But what you just said is really important because we are declaring victory before the victory has even happened. And from my understanding, what do we know from the Obama administration? Wasn't Michelle Obama also putting, doing some work behind the scenes on this?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Michelle Obama, I covered that era extensively. Michelle Obama was not focused on food diets specifically, but under the Obama administration, she put a major focus on nutrition, particularly children's nutrition. So she had the Let's Move campaign, which was focused on tackling childhood obesity. And that included actually a lot of policy changes. I think the biggest one was overhauling the nutrition standards in the school meals program. So like more whole grains, more fruits and vegetables, limits on sodium. Like, these are changes that were made during that era. And, you know, at the time, Republicans really hated those changes.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Like, there were huge fights, like huge political fights over these. I covered all of it. I mean, it was super dramatic. Like, I mean, you would, things you wouldn't think you could even fight over, they were fighting over. Like, should they be required to have a half a cup of fruits and vegetables on the plate? Or is that somehow the nanny state? And it's like, well, the federal government's paying for the meals. So it's kind of hard, it's kind of hard to argue nanny state on like having nutrition standards. But we heard it all. I mean, it was this really, really intense time. The Obama administration also did a lot of other things that I think people forget. Like, they banned trans fat. Industrial trans fats were actually blamed for tens of thousands of cardiovascular events

• 28:51Speaker 01

  and premature death every year. And so I remember the food industry coming to me and being like, sprinkles are going to be banned. Like, we're not going to have sprinkles anymore. Like, we can't function without trans fat. And like, lo and behold, they figured it out.

• 29:04Mindy Pelz?

  They found a way.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  They found a way.

• 29:06Mindy Pelz?

  What did they replace it with, though? I think I was going to ask you this question because it was partially hydrogenated oils, right? And they said, we decided it causes cardiovascular disease. And then the thing that really got me on this is when they made that discovery, I think it was, you know better than me.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  It was a long time ago. It was decades ago.

• 29:24Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. And they were like, it needs to be out by 2025 or something like that, which was 20 years from the time they discovered it was causing cardiovascular deaths.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  The guy who worked on that was a man named Fred Kumero. And he had been asking FDA to ban it for Forever, like he petitioned them. I mean, he, I think either had almost died or had died by the time they finally did it. He for sure had died before the implementation period. So that's how long it took. It took a really long time and it was controversial. The Obama administration also, I remember then First Lady Michelle Obama being at the White House and they unveiled a new nutrition facts panel. People forget that we didn't have an added sugars label like mandated on the, you know, you're talking about the nutrition facts panel.

• 30:16Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  We didn't have added sugars as a line item on that.

• 30:20Mindy Pelz?

  I remember this, yes.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  The Obama administration, and again, the food industry fought tooth and nail against it, arguing that it was costly, you know, they were going to have to change all the labels. And the Obama administration really pushed back on that and they were like, we'll give you years to do it. Like you need to update the labels. And, you know, I don't know about you, but like I do look at added sugars. Like it's helpful to have that.

• 30:49Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  And we didn't have that before. That was a controversial change. There were several things like that where the Obama administration pushed forward on some policy areas. And what's interesting is they didn't have Maha. They didn't actually have this like huge movement. I actually talked to Sam Cass about this recently. He was the exec, or the leader of Let's Move during the administration, the Obama administration. He really ran a lot of the First Lady's efforts and he was also the chef to the first family. So had this like very unique vantage point.

• 31:24Mindy Pelz?

  He wrote a book, didn't he?

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, he just wrote a book. It's called, what's it called? The Last Supper. It's called The Last Supper. And he writes about like how hard it was to fight the food industry. Like the food industry has a lot of political power. But I do think out of those fights, we saw a bit of a weakened food industry, the big lobbying group that You know, everyone would recognize this big food, like all the major brands were in it, actually like kind of splintered during that time because food companies couldn't agree on like how to respond to a lot of these fights. Some of them were like, yeah, it's fine. We'll do bad sugars. You know, some of them were like, fight to the death. Right?

• 32:09Speaker 01

  So we're, they did, they did a lot of, they moved forward on a lot of policies. And I think now, looking back, a lot of the Obama people like Sam Cass is like, they're so mad at this moment, this Maha moment, because they're like, there's all of this grassroots energy. And they believe the administration's not going to do anything with it, not, not going to do anything real. They're like, sure. Like the argument they make, sure, get rid of food dyes. We're not going to defend food dyes. We don't care about them. But they're like, that's, you know, the, the line you always hear is, um, Fruit Loops without synthetic food dyes are still Fruit Loops. And so have you really changed?

• 32:49Mindy Pelz?

  They're Cheerios. Aren't they Cheerios without the food dyes?

• 32:54Speaker 01

  I think they still have some more sugar in them than Cheerios. Cheerios have a little bit of sugar, but, um, you know, their, their argument is that you're, you're not fundamentally changing, um, much. Um, not that they're like, sure, great, keep the food dyes, right? But they're kind of, I think, raising concern that maybe, um, focusing on that won't get us where we need to go, which I think everyone agrees is lower rates of chronic disease.

• 33:25Mindy Pelz?

  Right.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Like, that's where we want to go. Um, and we are in a rough spot right now.

• 33:31Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. Which, which, how do you, how do you put that next to the laws that are being overturned on glyphosate? Because I can tell you, in my practice, I started to see when people were first coming into me, they would have one symptom, you know, two would be unusual. And then I started to see people coming, especially with hormonal symptoms, where they would come in with four, five different chronic symptoms. And when I mapped it, I literally mapped it to when glyphosate was introduced into our food system. And so I started educating patients on organic. We gotta, you know, not do the

• 34:11Mindy Pelz?

  glyphosate crops are the are the worst. This is what they're doing. And when the Maha movement was gaining traction in its allegiance with Trump, I kept saying to my friends who were very pro-Maha, are you looking at Trump's environmental policies? Because we need to square all of this together. And I found it surprising that so much of the Maha movement was shocked about a month ago when they saw the protection the administration had given to Bayer for any any injury caused by glyphosate. What do we need to know about that?

• 34:52Speaker 01

  So I think glyphosate is, I mean, it's a supercharged debate right now, like no question.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  What the administration has done so far is sided with Bayer at the Supreme Court. So Bayer right now is trying to, they're facing thousands of cancer lawsuits, right? They have paid out billions of dollars. These are primarily lawsuits from environmental, like work exposure. So

• 35:22Speaker 01

  non-Hodgkin lymphoma in like a farmer or farm worker. That's generally what these cases are. It's not, my understanding is it's largely not from consumption, but

• 35:34Mindy Pelz?

  That's a good point.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  They're they are facing a torrent of lawsuits and they are now arguing in the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court's actually going to hear this case April 27th, that they shouldn't be facing these lawsuits. Most of them are under this wonky thing called failure to warn, because they're saying, you know, the EPA has approved this and there's no cancer risk. The EPA has determined that glyphosate is not likely to be a carcinogen, so they shouldn't be held responsible. It's basically like, should the federal rule preempt all state rules or state laws? And that's what Bayer is seeking to do at the Supreme Court. And the Trump administration

• 36:13Speaker 01

  is backing Bayer in this case. So that was the first thing that, I mean, Maha, I think the insiders were the most angry about. I don't know that your random, you know, Uh, mom, your random Maha mom who's like going about her life, who's taking kids to soccer. She's probably not following the ins and outs of Supreme Court, which like she shouldn't, right? Cause that's, there's like a lot going on in the world. But once that happened, a lot of the Maha advocates were really angry. Um, and then after that, we saw, um, the White House issue an executive order to promote the more domestic production of glyphosate.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  And they are arguing that it's a national security concern. We can't be so reliant on imports that basically like the foundation of our food system is at risk essentially. We need to onshore more of this. And as part of that, they had this language in there that was something, there's, there's some debate about like what this language actually meant, but it sort of sent a signal that if, under the Defense Production Act, which is a wartime provision, uh, you know, if a company were to be complying with that, uh, that they would have some liability shield. It wasn't a full-blown liability shield, which is more what Bayer is seeking

• 37:34Speaker 01

  from Congress and potentially from the Supreme Court. If they rule that EPA rules all, like, it will block these lawsuits. And it's not just glyphosate at issue. We're talking about thousands of chemicals that, um, if EPA has ruled on their safety, it would block one of the main pathways that people have to, to sue over these chemicals. And so that's why you're seeing a lot of advocacy groups teaming up with Maha, even when they might disagree with a lot of this other stuff, because there's a lot of anger about the idea

• 38:15Speaker 01

  that you would be giving essentially liability protection, um, to these big chemical companies beyond just, just glyphosate. And so there's this really intense debate happening. And that's why a lot of the Maha activists were so angry when they saw this executive order, because they felt like it was a slap in the face. Because Trump ran on cracking down on, he called them toxins in the food supply and in the environment.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And a lot of what this administration has done has been deregulatory.

• 38:50Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  They have weakened rules on, you know, mercury pollution, which is how mercury, which is a heavy metal, gets into our seafood and other, you know, things that we eat. And so just as one example, there's this really big rift, this really big tension within Maha over, I think, this grassroots desire to have the government cracking down on some of these things. And then the actual reality, which is that this administration, particularly at EPA, has been pretty industry friendly and they're kind of openly so. I mean, they say, you know, they brag about the level of deregulation that they have been seeking.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  And so we are in a very tense moment.

• 39:37Mindy Pelz?

  Yes, we are.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Maha advocates are rallying in front of the Supreme Court on April 27th. And so there's going to be, I think, a bunch of Maha moms and others here in Washington. Yeah, they're real, real mad.

• 39:54Mindy Pelz?

  Okay, let me ask you a personal question. And this one is a really important one, which is when was the last time you had your vitamin D checked? And I'm saying this because in all my years of working with women, low vitamin D is one of the most consistent findings I see and one of the most consistently missed. And vitamin D matters for so many aspects of your health. We're talking about a deficiency that can show up as hormonal imbalance, mood struggles, poor sleep, immune issues, even stubborn weight that won't budge no matter what you do. But here's the part that most people don't know.

• 40:37Mindy Pelz?

  Taking an isolated D3 supplement isn't enough. This isn't like just running down to the local store and grabbing some D3. Your body actually needs D3 to be combined with very specific cofactors to actually absorb and utilize vitamin D the way nature intended it. And most supplements on the market don't include these cofactors. That's why I personally love Cataplex D from Standard Process. It's a whole food supplement. It's vitamin D complex, not just an isolated nutrient.

• 41:13Mindy Pelz?

  There's an incredible difference between checking a box and actually moving the needle on your health, and this one really moves the needle. In fact, in my clinic, we used to test vitamin D, and we could see with a product like Cataplex D, we could see on lab work, the vitamin D levels in people go up. So you can learn more, and you can get yourself some vitamin D, you can test out Cataplex D at drmindypells.standardsprocess.com. Enjoy.

• 41:49Mindy Pelz?

  Where do you think RFK Junior sits on this? Because when I saw the protection for Bayer, I watched several of my colleagues that are big Maha advocates, and I was like, just waiting. Okay, what's RFK Junior going to say? And personally, I was shocked that he seemed to side with the administration that we can't take glyphosate out, or we're not going to have enough food. What do we think? Do you think that was a political statement to, you know, save his face? And what is the truth behind that? Because I have had several colleagues that are repeating that statement. And that's how they're justifying this moment.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  RFK Junior has been open that he disagreed with this, that he's, I think he said something like, he wasn't happy about it, to put it mildly. He did go on Joe Rogan, like a couple of weeks after this happened, and explained a little bit more of his stance. But, but you summed it up in a way there. He has defended the move as basically saying, this is a national security issue. We can't be so reliant on other countries for the ingredients for glyphosate. So he backed up kind of the premise of the EO, executive order, that's what we call them here in DC. But he also said, he believes glyphosate causes cancer. And to be very

• 43:14Speaker 01

  clear, this is not the EPA's position. EPA has repeatedly said that, you know, or concluded that glyphosate is not likely to be a carcinogen. Other regulatory bodies, including EFSA, have concluded the same. But there are some, like, there's a panel, IARC, within the World Health Organization, that has ruled glyphosate is probably a carcinogen. And so There's, I'm not a, you know, toxicology expert, but there is like a debate here. There's a debate about environmental exposure. I think we've seen less science on the, the, you know, everyone gets very concerned about residues in food. I've seen less science there to raise concerns about that.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  But I get it that, you know, a ubiquitous herbicide in the environment is going to make consumers go, really? I mean, is this, you know, is this okay? Do we trust EPA? I mean, I think that's kind of fundamentally what this comes down to is a lot of people don't trust EPA anymore. And that, you know, that's the moment we find ourselves in. But Kennedy has said, you know, he, he actually was part of the legal team that first sued Monsanto. So Bayer owns, Bayer bought Monsanto, so they have glyphosate now. But Kennedy actually sued Monsanto back in the day and was part of the legal team

• 44:37Speaker 01

  that won the first big jury verdict against Monsanto over a groundskeeper who had gotten non-Hodgkin lymphoma after using Roundup in his job. I think Roundup has since taken glyphosate out, but glyphosate is very much part of the food system that we have. I don't know that we have a, we don't have an easy alternative to glyphosate.

• 45:07Mindy Pelz?

  Interesting. That's a good point.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  There are other herbicides, almost all of them that I know of are more toxic. They have more concerns about, about the potential environmental or human health issues. And so it is a real challenge. I think when I'm watching this debate unfold within Maha, I think there's a couple of big questions that come up. The first is, you know, Kennedy has said as part of his defense is that we need to transition away. And he says things like, Everyone agrees we need to transition away from glyphosate. I don't see evidence of that within the agriculture space.

• 45:49Mindy Pelz?

  Interesting.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Like within the agriculture industry. I think probably, you know, some individual farmers are like, "Yeah, I would love to have an alternative. I would love to have some other tools in the toolbox." But I don't see agriculture making the argument writ large that they want to transition away or that they need to transition away. But Maha wants the food system to transition away. And so it's another situation where I think the wants of the grassroots are not really lining up with like the policy of the administration. And so, you know, I think Kennedy's been in a really tough spot on this one. He, I didn't expect that he would be like against it because President Trump is his boss.

• 46:35Mindy Pelz?

  Right. I was, that's why I was watching with bated breath.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Everyone was.

• 46:39Mindy Pelz?

  What's he gonna do now?

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Everyone was watching. They were like, because it was like watching this very dramatic fight unfold on, largely on social media. And like some of the key Maha advocates, like Zen Honeycut or Kelly Rierson were like out there basically arguing that this was straight up betrayal. They were like, I think Zen Honeycut actually said online, like, "I feel physically ill." They were so mad. They were so mad. They felt betrayed. And so I don't know where this is heading because we're in kind of a fundamental, they're in a fundamental disagreement, I think, about,

• 47:24Speaker 01

  about how to move forward. And the fact of the matter is, this administration is still on the side of Bayer at the Supreme Court.

• 47:29Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  There is a similar liability provision in the farm bill that is moving forward in the House. So this idea again about blocking failure to warn lawsuits, that, that is also active in Congress too. And Maha's pushing back. I mean, Maha advocates have had a lot of success at the state level. They have fought, yeah, there's been some state laws to try to.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Basically give, you know, liability protection and um, there's been some instances where, where Maha mobs got on the phone and they were like, they killed it. So, I mean, it hasn't worked in every state, but watching that has been pretty um, interesting. Like, I don't think we've seen that recently.

• 48:18Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, they seem, the thing that I find intriguing about the whole Maha movement is they seem to have this sense that they're acting independently of the Trump administration.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there is something to that. I've never seen anything like this in terms of, you know, there's a lot of anger, for example, at EPA, like deregulating, you know, mercury, PFAS, like pick your, pick your um, issue. And so they're really, they're really, they're really angry about that, but they don't blame Kennedy. Cause they're like, well, Kennedy doesn't oversee EPA. Um, and it's true. He, he doesn't. But I've never seen that dynamic unfold where like, you have a movement who very much helped elect Trump. Very, Maha was helpful to, to Trump in 2024. And then to not, um, or to,

• 49:13Speaker 01

  I guess to, to be able to compartmentalize some of those actions is, is interesting. I've never seen that happen. Um, and they, I think, a lot of them, I think the reason this hasn't been a full-blown divorce between Maha and the Trump administration, I think is because they hold out a lot of hope that Kennedy will do some of the things that they, they want at HHS. So, we'll have to see. But I, I think it's a big, big test for Maha.

• 49:41Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. And I think it'll be interesting. I, I mean, again, a lot of these people are in my space, my colleagues, friends, people I love. I've been in discussions with them. And um, you know, I, I care passionately about the environment. And so I was trying to figure out how the Maha movement and the environmental policies of Trump were gonna fit together.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  They're not. I would say they're not. They're like, the environmental groups, like, if you look at EWG or Consumer Reports or these other groups, they're, they are not defending, like, a lot of these moves. Um, and the other thing I should say on the, on the ag front, um, Kennedy has has talked about the potential for there being like basically like tech solutions coming to the summit. So glyphosate is used to combat weeds. It's a weed killer. We use the term herbicide. And there's these cool technologies coming down the pike where farmers can basically put this like big attachment on their agricultural equipment and it will like zap

• 50:44Speaker 01

  the individual weeds. It will like see the weeds and zap the weeds. Yeah, instead of using yeah, instead of using an herbicide. And like, it sounds super cool and like futuristic and it is, but I think he's been very open. He's like, these cost a million dollars. Like, it's not the it's not the near term solution if you're talking about like, reducing the use of herbicides generally, but those things are starting to get kicked around now as like, maybe in the future, we can move away because of some of these technologies. So that's one thing that's interesting to watch. I mean, at a million dollars. I mean, farmers are are under a lot of stress right now. Commodity prices are our commodity prices are not keeping up with the

• 51:25Speaker 01

  cost of inputs. I mean, we're now in a war with Iran and like fuel prices are fertilizer prices are up. I mean, they are under stress, right? So no, no one's like, oh, you know what I need to do? Spend a million dollars on a on a new piece of equipment that's going to help me, you know, move away from glyphosate. But maybe we will see that down the road. I don't know. I think it's wishful thinking to think that is around the corner, though.

• 51:53Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. How helpful was the new food pyramid? And what was the politics behind that?

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Oh, man. What was the politics behind that? I think I think Kennedy has said publicly a few times that like, blood was shed over every single, like, every single recommendation in the dietary guidelines. This stuff is really political. There's so much fighting.

• 52:17Mindy Pelz?

  That is crazy. That is crazy.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Over all of it. Over all of it. I mean, okay, the dietary guidelines overall, overall, are not as different.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  They are not revolutionary compared to what we had, right? Like, still, some of the fundamentals are there. Fruits and vegetables, whole grains.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  You know, they even kept the saturated fat limit, which a lot of people were surprised by because they really like to talk about how, you know, they believe science has, the scientific community has wrongly pointed at sat fat as something you need to reduce and like, it's a whole other topic for another day. There's a lot of fighting about that. So even the 10%, you know, try to keep 10% of your calories, you know, saturated fat to be no more than 10% of your calories. They even kept that, which was like wild. The places where the dietary guidelines are really different is they explicitly tell consumers to avoid highly processed foods. This is a first.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Okay, the dietary guidelines have never mentioned like that specific type of food. Now, you'll notice I said highly processed, not ultra-processed. They use the term highly processed in part because we don't have a definition fully for what is an ultra-processed food. And FDA and USDA are working on this right now, which I think a lot of health advocates think could be helpful if they get it right, right? Which is, which is hard to do, but I think, I think there's some folks that are hopeful that that that could be helpful. So the avoiding ultra-processed foods was a huge change.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  The way that the pyramid was slipped upside down, I think was a very clever way of saying, we don't trust the institutions we've had, right? It's a way of flip, literally flipping over.

• 54:20Mindy Pelz?

  I can see that.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Of course, the wonk in me is like, we technically haven't had a food pyramid. For more than 15 years because we've had this, I mean, do you even know what my plate is? Most people don't.

• 54:32Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, I do.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  They did a very bad job. They did a very bad job marketing it.

• 54:35Mindy Pelz?

  My plate was horrible, too. I mean, I mean, there's, but it was at least they tried to make it actionable.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  And my plate is half fruits and vegetables and then a quarter of its grain and a quarter of its meat. And then it has like milk, like floating up.

• 54:48Mindy Pelz?

  That was the part. Yes, yes.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  A lot of, I feel like a lot of folks, a lot of folks were like, what about water? But don't, don't try, I mean, the, the dairy lobby is strong as well. So.

• 54:59Mindy Pelz?

  Wow.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  So the way that the, the pyramid, the upside down triangle we now have really visually calls out, you know, there's that ribeye right there, the whole milk, like it's very meat and dairy focused. I think it's the actual visual that is so different. The dietary guidelines themselves, like the underpinnings are not quite as different as, as people may think. So that maybe sounds wonky to people, but I think it is kind of important. It's not like we wholesale rewrote nutrition guidelines. Like a lot of the same things are true.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Like, you know, there are still, you know, legumes and there's still like some beans in there and some fruits and vegetables are still called out as something you should eat. Seafood, a lot of the things that have long been promoted in the dietary guidelines are still promoted in the dietary guidelines. But certainly the like shift towards higher protein. That was a significant change, recommending higher protein consumption. And the visual representation of more meat and dairy was big. And that's, I think a lot, that's the message most people are getting is like steaks back, like, right? That's the message and that's the message they wanted to convey. So.

• 56:23Mindy Pelz?

  Sure. Surely you've seen the Saturday Night Live skit, a Maha hospital. And the woman, the woman comes in, they're like, she needs a steak, get her steak stat. It was really funny.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  The SNL skit is really funny. I think even some folks within Maha thought it was funny. Yeah, it was, it was funny.

• 56:41Mindy Pelz?

  It was really well done.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think at one point, um, they were like, at one point, they're like, she's cra- they're like, he's crashing. They're like, get us some bull semen. And you're just like, what? It's actually very funny. If you haven't seen it, go to SNL, SNL Maha Hospital, and you will find it's very funny.

• 57:03Mindy Pelz?

  What I did look up when that, when we did the food pyramid, because I've been following them, because like you said, the, many of the people that are going to be going, the Maha Moms are people in my world. And so I'm just trying to stay in tune. And what I saw was that the food pyramid determines school lunches and what goes into our schools. So my first question is, is that correct? And the second is, I don't think we're going to start serving steak to our, to our kindergarteners. I don't know if we can afford that.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  We can't afford it, well.

• 57:36Mindy Pelz?

  But if we've got ultra, ultra processed foods as the enemy, there's a part of me that's like, well, okay, maybe that could trinkle into our school system.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  This is, I think, the big question. This is the big question. Okay.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Cabinet officials like to say that the dietary guidelines dictate school meals. And that's sort of like true and untrue. It is true in that they are supposed to follow the dietary guidelines, but you have to actually write rules to mandate those changes. So like, school meals is the perfect example. School meals, um, people don't realize that schools are the largest restaurant chain in America. Like, they're bigger than all the other chains. Yeah. Um, it's like, we're talking 30 million meals a day. Like, actually, I think it's more like over 40 if you include breakfast, um, because a lot of schools serve breakfast as well. So we're talking massive scale. Um, and we are only spending

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Maybe $2 a meal on like the food for lunch that they are paying higher than that because like there's a lot of overhead costs. You have to have staff and like, so when you ask about steak, I don't think it's that the US actually can't afford to feed kids steak. It's that we choose not to, right? We choose that we choose to do like a lower cost option for students. And I think that's been true for a long, long time. Like, we're trying to feed the most kids possible for as little as is feasible. That's throughout, you know, when I ate school lunch, it was the same. Like, it was like canned peaches and pizza, and we had French toast sticks. Those were really popular.

• 59:16Mindy Pelz?

  Sloppy Joes. I remember because I was raised with a total health nut mom. And if the cafeteria was showing, was giving sloppy Joes, I was like, yes, I get that.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  You're like, I didn't get that at home. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,

• 59:30Speaker 01

  the push away, the recommendation that people avoid highly processed foods, in theory, should translate to school meals. The issue is, most of the foods served in school meals are ultra-processed. Right. And so then the question becomes, how do schools do that? Like, if they were to transition away from ultra-processed foods, you'd have to move towards scratch cooking, or what's called speed scratch, which means, you know, you might be using canned tomato sauce and like some different components, but it's not like the heat and serve, which is what a lot of schools do right now. The challenge with this is schools need equipment. A lot of schools don't have kitchens. They've been

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  reheating food and serving it. And I was actually just out in California, and California's doing a lot to try to get their schools to be cooking again. They're spending hundreds of millions of dollars on like farm to school, and they are trying to do more equipment in schools. So like, I was in the, I was in the Berkeley Central Kitchen. They have like a long time focus on school because of Alice Waters.

• 1:00:38Mindy Pelz?

  I was just gonna say, you were at the epicenter.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Definitely, and not the typical school for sure. But you know, just the chiller, so they they would cook the food, they cook the food in a central kitchen, and they chill it down and send it off to the the schools because that's like an easier way than having each school have their own. Because you imagine you might have one or two staff at the school and they're serving like, let's say they're serving 500 lunches to

• 1:01:05Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  an elementary school. How are one or two people gonna scratch cook for 500 kids? I mean, you're not. And so they they found these ways. So the central kitchen model is really popular, especially in California. But just the chiller to like, get the food from, you know, cooked down cool enough to like, ship it out, you know, safely. That's like a $70,000 piece of equipment. And so just learning about these examples, you start to realize that there are some real barriers and like, one of those barriers is funding, some of it's training, and some of it's that we don't as a country really prioritize this. You know, we're spending a couple bucks on each meal and like, I don't know how you do that.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  And then get beautifully prepared, scratch meals that like, people, I think a lot of moms would be like, that'd be great. If I didn't have to pack lunch. So we're, we're in this moment where there is, I think, a gap between the intention in the dietary guidelines to avoid highly processed foods and then the implementation of that. And it's the same for the military. Like if we wanted to reduce ultra-processed foods in the military, well, you gotta start building that infrastructure because right now, a lot of military bases have fast food on them. You know, they, and so that's the status quo.

• 1:02:25Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, and then we send them our Halloween candy, just to, you know, put a little cherry on the top.

• 1:02:32Mindy Pelz?

  It's, it's, I've always, I never understood that. I'm like, why would we send our Halloween candy to the military? How about we toss it?

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  So a lot of people toss their candy.

• 1:02:42Mindy Pelz?

  I know.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Like, I found this out. Because parents are like, I don't want it in the house. Yeah.

• 1:02:45Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, it's crazy. What do you think the consumer, you know, I, I, I think that, As you dive into these topics, you can get pretty depressed pretty quickly. And the one solution that I have found, if people have the resources, is to move away from food that has labels on it. Start going to your farmer's markets. Like, we actually know our farmers at our farmer's markets and we ask them how it's grown. And I think, and I even did a video recently on my YouTube channel about how you actually can save money eating whole food versus these ultra-processed foods.

• 1:03:25Mindy Pelz?

  And so I'm just wondering where we go in this moment. Do you see a way out? It's almost like the problem has been revealed. Now, what do we individually do?

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think this is one place where you hear a lot of agreement on the problem. Like, we know that higher consumption of ultra-processed foods is associated with poor health outcomes, like so many different types. And so then the question becomes like, what do you do about it? And it like goes back to the schools. Okay, well then that means cooking. Okay, well how? I feel like it's the same in our houses, right? It's like, you know, I have two little kids, so between 5:00 and 7:00 PM is like complete chaos in my household, even though like I like to cook. Like, I grew up, my mom always cooked. Like, so I'm lucky that I have the, you know, the know-how and the resources.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  And even then, it's like, it's a lot. And so I think, you know, I think when we talk about going away from ultra-processed foods, the real missing link is like having more convenient options that are minimally processed. And that seems to be where there's a big hole, like, because yes, is true that you can eat for less if you're getting the ingredients and cooking. But that cooking takes time, skill, equipment. Also, like, the executive function of like planning it every week and going to the store and like assuming you have access to transportation,

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  assuming you have access to a grocery store that does have all these ingredients and so, or a farmer's market. I mean, I think there's a lot more farmers markets now than there were 15 years ago, but it's still not as accessible. And so I think it really is in the how is where we get stuck. The Trump administration, we see those leaders saying, you know, including Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins and Kennedy saying that like, what you just said, that like, actually you can eat for less, like ultra-processed foods actually are not cheap, but the thing is they're easier. They are easier. They are so much easier. And so

• 1:05:33Mindy Pelz?

  And they're addictive.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Well, some of them are, but that's a whole other conversation. Some of them.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  I think the government has been, it's been interesting. When I, when I was covering the Biden administration towards the end, I saw the FDA Commissioner, Robert Califf, say that he personally believed that ultra-processed foods caused addictive behavior, which is essentially the same thing as saying they're addictive, but he didn't like go quite that far. He said, oh, this is not FDA policy. This is my personal viewpoint. And that was kind of at the end. Now we have cabinet officials straight up saying, this food is essentially addictive. They were being mass poisoned. That's what they're saying. And again, I just go back to, I'm a food policy reporter. I'm always like in the newsletter, Food Fix, which everyone should read, you know, I'm like, okay, this is what they

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  said. What are they doing? And if we are, if the official position of the Trump administration is that we are being poisoned, what are we then doing about it? And I think that it's where the rubber meets the road. It's in how you transition that more focus needs to be paid. And there's just a huge gap between the rhetoric and the action. And I don't know where this is headed. I don't, I think it's possible we will see some, some policy action, but there's so much, there's so much tension within this desire to sort of crack down or create a new food system or nudge

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  our food system in a different direction. There's that desire. And then there's also this kind of more traditional Republican viewpoint, which is that like, government should be small, limited, less regulation. And those are just not really things you can square in the, in the same way. And

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  I don't know where this is, where this is headed, but I think there is a, um, a really big gap.

• 1:07:38Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. And I, you know, I also think at least it's at the forefront of the conversations that people are having. So I feel like the awareness is good. Uh, we just can't get depressed in, in not seeing the solution. So.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  I know way too much about this.

• 1:07:56Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Look, I have little kids. I think you, you can't just only focus on like, what's wrong. Like you have to be able to look forward and be like, okay.

• 1:08:10Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  What, you know, there's, there's more awareness. I mean, the fact that we as a country can feed ourselves, like there, there is a lot of, um, there are a lot of positive things about the American food system, but it's also okay that consumers are now going, could we be doing this better? Like, could we, you know, can we get rid of some of these things that we have concerns about, or that maybe other countries don't use? Um, we live in a democracy. Like it's fair to ask those questions. And if people want to push back on their government and ask for different policies, like that's how it works. So.

• 1:08:49Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. Well, we've been watching you from afar for many years. So it's a real joy to meet you. And I just love, what I love is the way you take the information. And this is probably your journalistic background. Um, and you're able to present it where we can see both sides. And in a world that we're pointing fingers at everybody and this person's wrong and this one's right. I think your approach is just beautiful. So I just want to, I want to thank you for that. And I know you have a Substack, you have a podcast. Where, where can my podcast listeners go and, and dive deeper into your work?

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you want to get the newsletter, it's free every Friday. You can go to foodfix.co or just Google food fix newsletter and you can find it. Um, I also have a new podcast called American Dish, which is interviewing different food system leaders and officials, critics and insiders and all the, everything in between. Um, I do think, I mean, you mentioned being able to see all sides. I think it's important. Like we see so much online that's like very polarized and. I always say it's like, it's not my job to tell people how to think about these issues. It's not my job to tell people what or how to think about Maha, but like it is my job to hopefully inform readers about what's going on and like provide context.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  And that's what I try to do. I've been a journalist for a really long time. I'm trying to do a little bit more on social media because I know so much of the information is, it's just really polarized and it's not always super helpful.

• 1:10:19Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah. Well, Helena, thank you so much. I'm, I'm, I hopefully we gave you like 10 minutes before your children come in.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got a little bit of time.

• 1:10:28Mindy Pelz?

  That was like my goal. I was like, could I close this down so she could actually maybe go to the bathroom by herself?

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  It's always, you're always hoping that there's time for that. Yeah. Thank you. This was fun. Yeah.

• 1:10:41Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, I really appreciate and just know there's many of us that you may not be seeing that are listening to you and watching and cheering you on.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  And I, I, you know, I've listened to a few of your pods and I, I am, so I'm about to turn 40 and all of my friends are like, what is going on? Like what, I mean, because again, speaking of like the information overload, like everyone is like, how are we navigating? I mean, I feel like the, the wave of millennial women is just about to like come on top of everyone, Gen X, everyone going, what are we doing?

• 1:11:15Mindy Pelz?

  I was gonna say, welcome, welcome. Those of us who have been in this little, you know, menopausal village will, will, you know, guide you.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  You're right in the middle of it. Yeah. It is, it is wild. And I mean, I don't, I, I don't know anything about this, but it's, one of the things that's been interesting is, I mean, Maha definitely helped get the black box warning off of HRT. So like there's all these issues where like certain things come up and people are like, we kind of all agree on this. And then you have other issues that come up and you're like, No, no one agrees on this.

• 1:11:48Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  It's like, really, it's just all over the map. It's all over the map, but anyway.

• 1:11:54Mindy Pelz?

  I think, I think we all need to get used to the word bittersweet. You know, it's such a, that two opposing things could come together in one moment. And that I think we can, we can like some of the things that Maha is doing and we could be really opposed to some of the things.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Well, I think that nuance, nuance is important. I'm just like, you know, great.

• 1:12:14Mindy Pelz?

  Which is why we need journalists like you.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 1:12:18Mindy Pelz?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  So keep up the good work and just know we're cheering you on. Thank you, guys. This was a, this was a real treat.

• 1:12:25Mindy Pelz?

  Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it, so please leave us a review, share it with your friends, and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.