320: Counter-Attack The Problems Around You and Solve Them. With Eli Crane.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:52 - Eli Crane. Navy SEAL, CEO. 2:44:20 - How to stay on THE PATH. 3:11:37 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 320 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  So there's a

• 0:11Jocko Willink?

  a common set of metaphors that get thrown around a decent amount. Something along the lines of

• 0:22Jocko Willink?

  we as people, we're authors of our own book and we're the star of our own movie.

• 0:30Jocko Willink?

  You heard these things before?

• 0:31Speaker 01

  I have, yeah.

• 0:33Jocko Willink?

  And they, when you hear them, when I just said them, and even the way I said them, they seem kind of trite and they seem cliched and I guess they are, but like many cliches, they are true in many ways.

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  And there's an analogy in those statements with the idea of extreme ownership.

• 1:00Jocko Willink?

  Take, take ownership of your life. That's the similar to, hey, you write your own book.

• 1:08Jocko Willink?

  You get to create the plot is the, is the underlying theme, which means that you have control and obviously I like that idea.

• 1:18Jocko Willink?

  I like that, that attitude. And I agree with the idea of creating your own plot and writing your own book that you're in.

• 1:31Jocko Willink?

  But it doesn't quite correlate a hundred percent because here's the thing.

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  If you are truly writing your own script, then you actually have control over everything that's happening. You have a hundred percent control over everything that you're writing. You're writing it. But in life, in real life,

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  there are things that are beyond your control. In war, the enemy gets a vote. In life,

• 2:07Jocko Willink?

  Life gets a vote. Life gets a vote.

• 2:14Jocko Willink?

  Bad things are going to happen, the things that you don't expect. Disease, accidents, misfortunes, mishaps, catastrophes. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you are or what situation you are in. These things are going to impact your life at some point. No one gets out of life without these things happening.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  No one truly gets to write their own script.

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  So the question is, what do you do with these things when they hit you?

• 2:49Jocko Willink?

  How do you face these challenges? How do you? Actually take ownership of your life?

• 2:57Jocko Willink?

  It is not an easy thing to do.

• 3:01Jocko Willink?

  But we are lucky enough today. To have someone here that. Has taken ownership of his life. And has dedicated his life to service. He served in the SEAL teams.

• 3:17Jocko Willink?

  Once he got out of the SEAL teams, created an incredibly successful business. He serves his family, serves his wife and his two daughters. He serves his faith.

• 3:28Jocko Willink?

  And now he is looking to serve his country again. As a political leader.

• 3:36Jocko Willink?

  His name is Eli Crane. And he is here tonight to share his experiences. And pass on some of those lessons learned that he got along the way. Eli Crane, thanks for coming down, man.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, Jaco.

• 3:52Jocko Willink?

  Appreciate it. Long drive out from Arizona.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  I know, about five and a half hours, but it was a good one, though.

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  Let's jump into this. So, speaking of Arizona, let's start at the beginning. Let's start about your past. And where you came from.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I actually was born in Tucson, Arizona. My dad was going to pharmacy school out there. Both my parents are from Iowa and they moved out here, go to a good pharmacy school and there were a lot of pharmacy jobs in the West. So my dad went through pharmacy school, then moved us down to Yuma, Arizona of all places.

• 4:27Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so

• 4:29Jocko Willink?

  Was there a job or something down there?

• 4:30Speaker 02

  There was. And that's why, that's why he did it. And it's cool because I remember a lot of my, a lot of my buddies in the platoon were always complaining about, you know, Iraq and the heat. And I was like, this is like where I'm from, man, you know? Except Arabic street signs and maybe an extra dust storm here or there. This is like, kinda like Yuma without the good Mexican food. But, but yeah, so grew up in, grew up in Yuma and, you know, just, you know, loved playing sports, was a football player, played a little bit of basketball and stuff like that. Wanted to be a pro football player, but then I realized, you know, I ran into reality and realized that I didn't have, didn't have the skills and started looking at other options.

• 5:12Jocko Willink?

  Was your, so your dad was actually completed pharmacy school and he's a pharmacist?

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 5:16Jocko Willink?

  And what about your mom? Was she doing the same thing? Or did she start raising the kids?

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was, she was raising the kids and she was also, she also did some part-time work at our church as a secretary, so.

• 5:29Jocko Willink?

  So you were spending time in church then when you were younger?

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did.

• 5:33Jocko Willink?

  How was, how was the attention span in school and whatnot?

• 5:38Speaker 02

  It wasn't

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  Were you a good student?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  No, I was a horrible student. It was funny. I remember, you know, thank God, you know, Jaco, you talk about dynamic leadership. Sometimes they're like, hey, what works for this individual doesn't work for that individual. But it was interesting because I remember my mom, thank God she, you know, tried to be dynamic in parenting me and my brothers, because my older brother, my older brother and younger brother were good students. But me, on the other hand, not so much.

• 6:05Jocko Willink?

  Well, you're the, you're the middle, right?

• 6:06Speaker 02

  I was the middle. And there were, I remember my mom coming home from a parent teacher conference and she's like, you know? Eli is in the classroom, but he's not really here. And like I was always daydreaming. I was out at recess, chasing butterflies, whatever I was doing. But yeah, I didn't. And it was interesting because as I, as I went down that pipeline, you know, I started to think, you know, people would tell me like, especially my brothers, you know, you always razz your brothers, give each other a hard time. And my brothers, you know, I, I probably dished out more than I, than I received, but um, you know, they would tell me that I was stupid because my grades were awful.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  And so you, you hear, you hear something enough time, you're stupid, you're stupid, you're stupid. You start to internalize it and you know, you can easily make that a part of your identity. So, um, I did. And you know, I started to think I was stupid. And then as I got, as I got further along in life and I started, you know, finding what I was passionate about, I realized that I wasn't stupid. I just, you know, needed to have that energy and my attention funneled in the right direction towards something that I really cared about.

• 7:18Jocko Willink?

  So you played football? Did you say football and what?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  You know, I played football, a little bit of basketball, but most of my focus was football.

• 7:27Jocko Willink?

  And you played all through high school?

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  How good were you?

• 7:31Speaker 02

  You know, I was decent, um, but I wasn't, I wasn't good enough to move on to college. I played, you know, I played quarterback. I loved, you know, playing quarterback. I loved the team dynamics of football, but uh, it was interesting. And you know, I gotta take extreme ownership of this, but my, my coach, we had like three slow white quarterbacks. And in high school, our coaches decided to switch us to an option, you know, running football team. So it was kind of like, you know, none of us were even really in a system that, you know, uh, really, uh, highlighted our skills, our preferred skill sets or what we were even good at.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  But, um, and there was, there was one guy that ended up starting over me. And unfortunately he was juicing at the time and I was like a scrawny like hundreds, you know.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  Wasn't unfortunate for him apparently.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  He was like, I was six one, like a hundred and seventy pounds, just really, really scrawny. Hadn't put on any weight yet and he had, he could throw about fifteen yards further than me and he, he got, he, he started. So it is what it is. Didn't get, you know, didn't, didn't get the opportunity to really start. Once I got deeper, I started all the way up to like my junior year and then, you know, I got benched and the bottom line is, you know, I wasn't good enough to make it happen and I'm looking back on it hindsight being what it is. I'm kind of glad because I'm pretty, pretty thrilled about the route that I ended up going down.

• 9:03Jocko Willink?

  And then you, you, you stayed in Yuma, is that where you went to high school?

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's where I went to high school, Sebola High School.

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  And your parents were just continuing to work and

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 9:16Jocko Willink?

  Get you ready for life?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Yep, pretty much just raising me and my two brothers and yeah, I mean, you know, I'm feel pretty fortunate to grow up in the home that I did. You know, my parents loved us, they provided for us, et cetera. And you know, I, I realize a lot of, a lot of folks don't get that. So pretty grateful for that.

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  And then were you planning to go to college? Was that part of your plan?

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I, I was planning to go to college, but I was hoping that I could go there and play football. Like that was my focus, that was my goal and, uh, and then I also wanted to be in the military at some point. And so the advice that I was getting was, hey, Eli, if you're gonna go to college, you know, uh, or if you're gonna go into the military, go through, go through school, get your degree, become an officer, you know, and you'll get a lead man, the pay is better, et cetera. And you know, that wasn't the path I ended up taking, but.

• 10:15Jocko Willink?

  Did you, did you get better grades as you got older or?

• 10:18Speaker 02

  I did.

• 10:19Jocko Willink?

  Did your brother scar you to the point where you were just not doing any schoolwork at all?

• 10:24Speaker 02

  No, my, so when I got out of, uh, when I got out of high school, I started working some like odd jobs like construction. You know, at one point I was like a scorekeeper down at Parks and Rec, you know, for like softball. Stuff like that. I was working at a restaurant as like a busboy, you know, definitely not on the on the path to

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  This is when you got out of high school?

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I got out of

• 10:46Jocko Willink?

  You got out of high school, did you didn't go right into college?

• 10:48Speaker 02

  I didn't.

• 10:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  And then, uh, and then I was kinda, I was kinda lost and it was right after my parents divorce. And my parents divorce was pretty tough and so it kinda rocked my world. I was definitely, you know, a little bit rattled. So I was trying to fig-

• 11:02Jocko Willink?

  How old were you when your parents got divorced?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  I was seventeen. So, um, you know, thankfully, like I said, I got my parents together for most of my, you know, upbringing, but it was, it was a pretty brutal divorce and so it just really rocked my world and, um, I was, you know, took some time trying to figure out who the hell I was, what I was gonna do. And, um, and then I started, I, I started going back to a community college called Arizona Western. And I started studying criminology and that's when I started getting good grades because I, I loved it. I loved it and, you know, I was, I wasn't getting straight A's, but I think I had like a three, three, five average or something like that and, uh, you know, I, I enjoyed it.

• 11:45Jocko Willink?

  And how long did that last for?

• 11:47Speaker 02

  So I did that for about two years. I, I think I was one credit away, like I'm elective away from getting my, uh, my associate's degree and then I applied to go to the University of Arizona. Unfortunately, when I got to the University of Arizona, they didn't have like a criminology degree. They had like a some criminal justice degree, but I'd have to go to the Eller Business School and I didn't get into that one. You had to have really good grades to get into it. And, uh, and so I ended up being like, okay, I still wanna finish my degree, still wanna have the opportunity to become an officer if possible. And so I was like, okay, be, being the typical, you know, I was like, okay, what's,

• 12:29Speaker 02

  what path can I go that allows, allows me to do that? And so I s- looked at sociology, the study of society and culture and I started, uh, you know, uh, working on my major and that I switched my major at that point because, because they didn't have the criminology major.

• 12:46Jocko Willink?

  Were you thinking about the SEAL teams or were you just thinking about the military in general? Did you know?

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so at that point I knew I wanted to be a SEAL.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Even when I was back in Yuma before I came to Tucson. I was never a big partier or anything like that and I remember. When I was even when I was doing the odd jobs, one of my favorite things to do at night was to go to Barnes and Noble. And just like, you know, really go through the military history section that they have there. And I would just read books on special forces, PJs, Rangers, Delta. And I was just fascinated by the special forces community. And I remember my dad gave me a piece of advice in high school. He said, Eli. The trick to being happy in your career is basically to pick something you would do for free. Don't, don't pick a career because of money. It won't make you happy.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  And, uh, and he told me if I could, if I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't be a pharmacist. He said, I could have gone and, you know, you know, been a forest ranger or something like that. I would, I would do that. And so I took that advice on board and I was like, oh man, I was reading the books and I was like. Jumping out of airplanes, blowing stuff up, you know, shooting, you know, being with, you know, being in a team environment. Dude, I'd do that for free for sure. And so I started setting my mind on special forces.

• 14:06Jocko Willink?

  Is there something that particularly narrowed it down to SEAL teams?

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, because all the literature that I was, almost, almost all of it. Said that it was the toughest training in the Department of Defense. And I don't know, there was something about that that just appealed to me. Like I wanted to test myself and see if I could.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  If I had what it took to, to make it through the toughest training in the world. And then I, I loved the water or I thought I did.

• 14:35Jocko Willink?

  That, that, that notion gets tested.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:38Jocko Willink?

  That notion gets tested big time. How old were you when you were figuring all that out? Was that when you were already at the University of Arizona?

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, so it was even when I was, you know, definitely thinking about it, even when I was at Arizona Western. I was also thinking about, would it be cool to be a fed? Cause I was studying criminology. Um, you know, federal law enforcement or something like that. And then, uh, as soon as I got to U of A, um, you know, I started studying sociology, which I really, I was back in that. I really don't like this that much. Um, and I really, I could even see kind of the indoctrinization within academia at that point. And I was like, I'm really not on board with a lot of this extracurricular stuff that they're putting out here. And kind of the, the bent that a lot of academia has.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Um, and so I started, I found a program in ROTC. I started, I realized, okay, there is an ROTC program here. There's a lot of military folks, maybe I should go get, um, hooked into that. And so I did, and I found that they had a Ranger Challenge program at U of A. And so I was like, oh, cool, man. I want to see if I can join and get into that. Maybe I could learn a little bit and, you know, network and just figure out, start, start working towards getting in the right type of shape. And so I, I started doing the Ranger Challenge program and, you know, we'd have to, you know, wake up, do early morning PTs. And, you know, just get some exposure to that culture and to leaders within that culture. And so I started doing that and that was helpful.

• 16:09Jocko Willink?

  So what year is this?

• 16:11Speaker 02

  So that would have been probably 2000.

• 16:16Jocko Willink?

  So were you in college when September 11th came?

• 16:19Speaker 02

  I was, I was, um, I was just starting my senior year at the U of A and I was doing that Ranger Challenge program. You know, my grades were decent. I was a lifeguard at the U of A rec center and, um, and nine 11 happened. I just finished a Ranger Challenge workout early in the morning. Got in my car, turned on the radio and I was driving back to where I lived and it was all over the radio. And I was like, damn, I was actually in a agricultural fraternity called Alpha Gamma Row at the time. So I drove home and I was like, I woke up all the guys who were still asleep and I was like, dude, you guys gotta get out here and watch this. And so we all, we all got up, watched it and everybody was just obviously stunned and surprised and pissed off at the same time.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  And so. I remember wanting to join, you know, obviously I wanted to join the military and I remember, you know, taking a couple of days to think about it, but I'm just like, I gotta go, you know, and I remember calling my, my mom and my dad and telling them, hey, look, I've decided I'm gonna go join the military. I'm gonna drop out of school and join the military. Cause I just really felt like, hey, there's never gonna be a time like this, you know, where the nation needs the next crop to step up and serve. And so I actually dropped out that week, went and, you know, dropped out all my classes. And then went down, started talking to the recruiter and playing those games with the recruiter. And then

• 17:47Speaker 02

  within probably, I think seven or eight days, I was, we were driving up to Phoenix so that I could get on a plane and fly to Great Lakes and it was pretty quick.

• 17:57Jocko Willink?

  Dude, that's really quick.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  And was it like a SEAL contract? Was it, was it a SEAL contract?

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:04Jocko Willink?

  Was it called Dive Fair?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  I don't think, I don't think.

• 18:07Jocko Willink?

  That's what I did back in eighteen twenty.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  No, it was, it wasn't called that. I can't remember, I can't remember what it was called, but they did guarantee me the opportunity to do a screen test and try out.

• 18:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Which is, if you think about that, is the shallowest guarantee you could ever get to sign your life away.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:29Jocko Willink?

  Hey, here, you sign this piece of paper for six years in the Navy and you will be guaranteed a chance to take a street screening test that might get you picked up for BUDS.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  That's a slim offering.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  I know it.

• 18:43Jocko Willink?

  And you rogered up.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  I did, I did. And, uh, you know, I'm, I wouldn't, looking back on it now, I don't think I would change it. Uh, even though I, I'd never have still to this day, never finished my degree, you know, for a couple of different reasons. And, uh, but I think this, I, I think it was the right thing to do. And I'm glad that, you know, there were a lot, there were thousands of Americans that did the exact same thing.

• 19:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Tim Kennedy was saying that same thing. He went down to recruiter like September 12th or whatever.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  And he said the line was around the building and everything. So you showed up to boot camp?

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:21Jocko Willink?

  In Chicago?

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  And was it, was it a shock to the system?

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Well, big time. Big time.

• 19:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't know who doesn't get a shock when they show up to boot camp, even Navy boot camp, which is, you know, relatively

• 19:37Jocko Willink?

  mild, I guess, compared to like, let's say the Marine Corps boot camp. But just the immediate loss of all your personal freedom and personal space. It's kind of a, it's kind of a little bit of a shocker, Echo.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 19:54Jocko Willink?

  And what were you gonna be?

• 19:55Speaker 02

  So I, uh, back then.

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  I mean, obviously your goal is to be a SEAL, but you had to take a rate, right?

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Yep. Gunner's mate was a SEAL source rate at the time. I think there were only five of them. So I was like, Gunner's mate, that sounds awesome. So, so I chose Gunner's mate. And thankfully I chose a cool one because I was gonna spend some time in that rate. Yeah.

• 20:17Jocko Willink?

  Did you take the screening test?

• 20:19Speaker 02

  I did.

• 20:20Jocko Willink?

  And you passed it?

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Not the first time, the second time. Yeah, man. This, you know, this is something.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Even before.

• 20:29Jocko Willink?

  How old are you at this point?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  I am twenty, I'm twenty-one years old.

• 20:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  So, um, I didn't pass my first one. I passed, I passed the second one. Like I was running in like steel, the, you know, back when you had to run the screen test in like steel-toed boots.

• 20:45Jocko Willink?

  Boondockers.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I had gotten some, what I would consider today, probably some pretty bad gouge from a team guy. Um, that I talked to, because I didn't know any SEALs, you know, but my recruiter, he was like, hey, man, there's some SEALs out at YPG, Yuma Proving Ground, here at jump school. We can go talk to them if you want. And I was like, yes, I'd love to go talk to them. So I remember going out, he drove me out there and I talked to one and, uh, he was like, he's like, look, man. The only way you're gonna know is if you if you have what it takes is just to show up and do it. He's like, can you pass the screen test? And I was like, yeah, I think I can. And so.

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  That is the worst.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:25Jocko Willink?

  Ever.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  So that's what I was rolling. I'm like, this guy's a Navy SEAL dude. This is what he told me. So.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  And then, so I, you know, once I got to the level where, you know, I could do like, I could pass the screen test. I was like, okay, I'm good to go. Let's do it. And then when I got like, I was, but even when I ran the screen test on my own, I was never running it in steel-toed boots and pants. And I don't, and like a fool, when I did, when I did this stuff, I didn't, I didn't do it together. And that's a big deal. A lot of people don't, we, a lot of people don't. Yeah, dude, I can do forty two pushups. Yeah, I can do, I can do six pullups. I can, I can do all these things individually, but you're not running them together. And when you start running them together with, with the time requirements in between,

• 22:12Speaker 02

  it'll gas you pretty quick. So the first time I ran it, man, I was dry heaving, coming across the finish line and failed. But I got a chance to go back and do it again. The, the next time like I came in with like maybe a second left. And they're like, all right, sweet. You get your SEAL contract. And I'm like, yes. And so graduated from boot camp, went to Gunner's Mate A school, right there in Great Lakes. And at that point, they let us work out with some actual SEALs. We got to do SEAL PT, I think, three times a week. So I started doing that. And it was kind of funny. I had, I have hairy legs. And so there was this instructor.

• 22:51Jocko Willink?

  You and Joe Biden, apparently.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  I didn't realize.

• 22:59Jocko Willink?

  Video, right? I mean, is there a crazier like?

• 23:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 23:02Jocko Willink?

  Combination of randomness that you could put into a video besides that Joe Biden and hairy legs?

• 23:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  The kids and the blonde hair and the most insane thing.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:14Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, all right. So you got hairy legs?

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so one of the instructors, his name was Instructor Hatter, he, he wouldn't even let me speak English. He made me speak in Wookiee. Like, and I used to be real good at like doing the, but it was like, like he made me run around and like, you know, go report to so and so over there. And I would run up to him and he'd make me report like that. And it, he, they loved it, but whatever. And yeah, so did the CLPT thing graduate, graduated Gunners made a school and then went immediately to Bud's and classed up with Bud's class two, four, two.

• 23:52Jocko Willink?

  Did you get what you expected at Bud's?

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and more and more and you know, it was, it was really, it was really interesting because I actually made it through hell week on my first, on my first attempt and you know, definitely not heroic, more like hanging on by the, you know, hanging on.

• 24:16Jocko Willink?

  What were you having trouble with?

• 24:18Speaker 02

  I, I, so, yeah, yeah, I was, I was having trouble with Bud's. So I, when I was born, I was born with, some doctors say that I had asthma, some said I had exercise induced bronchitis, whichever diagnosis is correct, at the end of the day, my lungs only functioned at about 60% and that, you know, of what they're supposed to, and that's after even like an albuterol hit or treatment. And so, you know, you can imagine, you know, if your lungs are only functioning at 60% and you've trained to the bare minimum, you're going to have a tough time. And so I, I was having a really tough time. And so I made it and I, I walk around at about 225 pounds.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  I had, because my lungs don't function at the level they're supposed to, I had to get down to 175 pounds just to pass the screen test, right? It's like a car, right? We can't put a bigger engine in this thing, you know, we can't do a lot to it. How, how do we make it? We start stripping weight out of it, throw the backseat, you know, like get rid of weight. Cause the thing is only going to go as fast as it goes. And so started really, you know, getting really thin, really thin and that had, that.

• 25:31Jocko Willink?

  This is while you were in Bud's?

• 25:33Speaker 02

  I had to get, I had to get really thin before even going to Bud's just because.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  Was this while you were at GMA school?

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:40Jocko Willink?

  So while you're at GMA school, you're just dropping weight?

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:42Jocko Willink?

  Trying to get, trying to get, be able to run faster?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:45Jocko Willink?

  And you show up at Bud's. And you're hurting.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it wasn't, honestly, it wasn't just that. It wasn't just that. Like, I was immature as well. Um, you know, I had, uh, that's one thing that, like, when I talk to people about SEAL training and BUDs and the fact that they're trying to form you into a teen guy. Um, when I first showed up, I was immature and I was like, I was looking out for number one. I was looking out for me. I was like, man. And it wasn't like I was a, like, I was a jerk, but if, if I'm struggling, if, if I'm on the struggle bus over here and I haven't grown up and matured yet, I'm like, man, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta focus on myself. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna volunteer for that two-spot under the boat, man. I'm, I'm hurting, right? And so

• 26:32Speaker 02

  after post hell week, I failed a evolution called life-saving, which sometimes is a pass or fail. Sometimes it's a weed-out evolution. And, uh,

• 26:43Jocko Willink?

  So life-saving, just for people to understand, this is where the students have to rescue the instructors who are allegedly drowning and they're actually not drowning. They're actually just getting ready to kick your ass.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 26:57Jocko Willink?

  So, and they have different levels. The first one is kind of passive and then the, it goes up those, to the fifth level, which is you're, you're in a, you're in a fight with another dude in the water. And you mentioned that it's pass fail, but you also mentioned that there's a decent amount of subjectivity to it, where if you have a guy that's coming through BUDs, that maybe he's meeting the standards, he might even be crushing the standards, but he's not a good, doesn't appear like he's gonna be a good teammate, doesn't it? Doesn't appear to be the kind of guy you'd want in your platoon as an instructor.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 27:32Jocko Willink?

  They can weed that guy out.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  At least that's the way it used to be.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Yep, and that, that, that, that's what it was. And it's, I'm glad. I, you know, I look back on it, it's one of the best things that ever happened to me. Um, you know, I got, I failed that event. They, they give you like, in most evolutions, a BUDs will give you like two or three chances to pass it. I failed it three times. So they sent me to an academic review board.

• 27:57Jocko Willink?

  When you were, when you were failing that, was that just like horrifying? I can only imagine that failing life-saving would be

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:06Jocko Willink?

  kind of like drowning.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it, you know, it, it was horrifying. Like, I remember. We had one instructor who was a very large man, very large man. I remember getting him back to the pool wall, pinning his hands on the side and I was just smoked. And I got up on the pool deck and I'm still holding his hands on the pool wall so that, you know, he doesn't, because he'll just, he'll just fall into the pool if you don't, if you don't pin him to the wall. And so I'm, pin him to the wall. I get up, I get out of the pool deck and like, I'm supposed to like cro- cross his hands as I bring him up. You know, you know what I'm talking about?

• 28:42Jocko Willink?

  So he can like spin the other way?

• 28:43Speaker 02

  So he can spin with his back towards me and then I can, put him, put him on my legs and slowly let him down. So if he was a real drowning victim, I'm not creating more trauma. And I remember I spun him the wrong way. And his junk like landed right on the pool deck and I heard him go, ugh. And this, he, he was as big as Jocko's dude. And I'm like, 170 pound Bud student on my third try. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm done. And went to an academic review board and uh, yeah, they were, I remember walking in and they were like, alright, young man, we're look, we've looked over your record.

• 29:19Jocko Willink?

  And this is post hell week?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  This is post hell week. Me, yeah, me and my roommate were both stand, I think we both got boarded that day with one other guy. And um, they were like, uh, look, you're obviously tough. You made it through hell week, but we need the best of the best here. And you're not meeting up to that standard. They were like, you failed to run, you failed to swim, you failed a no course. And here was, here was the big, here was the big one. And you're at, you're ranked in the bottom 25% of your class. Cause in SEAL training, even, even back then, we were doing peer evals. And so that's a, that's a big deal. And so they're like, we're going to recommend that you come back in a year. And I was like, okay. And so, you know, that was a tough, tough blow for me because they actually ended up keeping my roommate,

• 30:06Speaker 02

  who had basically the same stats that I had, was ranked the same, the same way. So that was-

• 30:10Jocko Willink?

  Why'd they keep him? Do you know?

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Honestly, I don't know, but um, they, they didn't tell me, but he actually made it all the way to third phase, couldn't pass his final swim and he got, he got booted. And he was a, he was a little dude as well, but I felt really bad for him because he never went back.

• 30:31Jocko Willink?

  When you were going through hell week, what, were you solid in hell week in terms of mentally?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  You know, I would say, I wouldn't say solid. I would say my mentality was hanging on for dear life. And I think that was, you know, the difference between my first whole week and my second whole week.

• 30:51Jocko Willink?

  So when you say hanging on for dear life, you mean you're sitting in the water on Tuesday night and you're like, like, can we get a little bit further? And you just did that the whole time, basically?

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the interesting thing is, is that I never thought about quitting. However, I remember we broke out Sunday night and then Monday night, I remember standing in line with, you know, the class, you know, where they're coming around with flashlights looking at you. And I'm thinking to myself, I've never been this cold. I've never been this wet, never been this tired.

• 31:29Jocko Willink?

  And this was Sunday night?

• 31:30Speaker 02

  This is, no, Monday night. This is 24 hours in, and I've still got another four and a half days of this. No. And I'm starting to think to myself, there's no way. And what I was trying to do is, I was trying to eat that elephant, you know, in one bite. And I mean, that's, I think that's probably the thing that gets most guys in, in, in training is that, like, when you've got a five and a half day block like that, and you try and eat it in one bite, it's just mentally overwhelming. No. But if you, if you're able to break it up into, I'm not even going to worry about Friday afternoon. I'm just going to focus on, I know I get to eat chow in two hours. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna make it to chow. And if it gets tougher than that, I'm just gonna make it through this race. And if it gets tougher than that, I'm just gonna put my right foot in front of my left foot in

• 32:14Speaker 02

  front of my, and you just break those goals down. And that, that was something that you, you think you're decent at doing until you get into the eye of that storm. And you're like, that was a big difference between hell week one and hell week two for me. But I, bottom line is, extreme ownership. I got what I deserved. And it ended up being a blessing.

• 32:36Jocko Willink?

  How were you not just super freaking angry when you got dropped?

• 32:42Speaker 02

  I was, I was. I remember, you know, you probably know, Dan Tabor. So I remember talking to instructor Tabor at the time. He was, he was there in my board. He was the proctor of my class. And, you know, he pulled me aside. And it was really cool because he didn't have to do this. But he was just really encouraging. He was like, hey,

• 33:03Speaker 02

  Don't, don't let this, he said something to the effect of, don't let this be the end. Come back, do it, you can make it. And he's like, and he's like, and don't, he basically, he's like, um, don't feel bad about this. Just make it right. And that was really cool, coming from a guy like that, who at that point in my life, I didn't even know if, you know, he, you know, cared about it. Cause you know, the persona that Buzz instructors put on, but it was just really cool. It was like a, it was like an older dude who'd been there, done that SEAL chief. And just a mentorship moment and that, that was really cool that he did that.

• 33:36Jocko Willink?

  So then it's trick or treat to the fleet.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 33:39Jocko Willink?

  Give me something good to sweep.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:41Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you get stationed?

• 33:43Speaker 02

  So the, the detailer gave me, hey, your options are you can go to Japan or you can go to Virginia or you can go to Jacksonville, Florida. And so Japan sounded kind of cool, but I was worried that if I went there, it'd be harder to get back. And so, and I really didn't want to go to Virginia because I heard a lot of bad things about being in the fleet there. It's a lot colder. I was like, Florida's kind of nice. I mean, Ron DeSantis wasn't there at the time, but I, I'd still heard good things. And so I was like, uh, yeah, I'll go to Florida. I'll go to Mayport. And I remember Jaco, I drove, I drove across country and showed up there and I looked at that ship. And I was like, and I knew I was going to be sleeping on that ship for the next at least couple year or so. I actually slept in my car, man. I was like, oh my God, dude, this is gonna suck.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  And it did. It sucked.

• 34:31Jocko Willink?

  Were you in E3 at this point?

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:34Jocko Willink?

  So you check onboard your ship. Did you get scullery duty out of the gate?

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Like mess decks?

• 34:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  No, I didn't. Um, matter of fact, I got hooked up on that, on that regard. I never went crank, we call it cranking.

• 34:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, mess cranking. Yeah.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Mess cranking and, uh, my, my rotation didn't come up for probably till I'd been on the ship like a year or so. And instead of going cranking, I went and did something called the hab team. And we were just rehabilitating spaces. It was the easiest duty I'd ever had on a ship. I worked for the, I worked for the post office clerk and, uh, like they would. Just pick a space or two every week and we would just go in, we would tape off the space. We would tape off everything that couldn't get painted and we would just paint it. And other than that, like that's all we had to do and they pulled me out of my division. So I didn't have to do any of the divisional work. I wasn't standing watches.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  And it was like the, it was like the easiest duty I ever did and all my buddies that were, you know, in, in uh, the gunners made division were so pissed off at me. They couldn't believe that I was getting a good deal. So we had this little gym on board. It was probably the size of this room. No kidding. Maybe a little bit bigger. What ship was it? It was the USS Gettysburg. Okay. It was an Aegis missile cruiser, CG sixty-four. And um, there were over like four hundred and fifty people on this ship Echo. So there were two gyms about this size. Ten by ten rooms. Four hundred and fif- and, and they would close it down if like the ship was rolling too much. And so it was like, you would show up hoping to get a workout in, two treadmills.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  And then, you know, they were almost always busy and you, the food you're eating is garbage, you know? And so it was like, not only that, but you would typically underway, you would work your regular day. Like, let's just say, you know, uh, six in the morning to five in the afternoon. And then every single night you would have to stand to watch. You would either have the eight to midnight. Or the balls to four, as we called it, or the four to eight. And so your sleep was always interrupted. You were always getting treated like crap in the, in the fleet. And um, but it, again, it was good for me. It's what I needed to grow up. And even in those circumstances, I said that I was immature when I went through BUDS the first time.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  And I still think I'm a little immature now, but it, it's a progression. Um, and uh, but it was cool because I started, I started looking back on, okay, what did I do wrong? How do I make this, how do I make this right? How do I improve while I'm out here? Even in those circumstances, I think I wasn't under a boat anymore, running with that heavy boat or, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't step up for my buddies in that circumstance, but there were times where we were all tired, nobody wanted to take the watch, or nobody wanted to take the trash out, or nobody wanted to do this. And there were times where I could practice, you know, taking it, you know, taking one for the team. And that's, that was part of what I needed to do and just learn how to be that guy, you know, when um,

• 37:42Speaker 02

  When the team needed you and so and just grow up a little bit, but.

• 37:46Jocko Willink?

  So, so how long did you spend on that ship?

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Two and a half years.

• 37:50Jocko Willink?

  Did you do one deployment or two deployments?

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Two. They said the SEAL instructors and the recommendation on on my exit eval or whatever it's called was Eli, we recommend he comes back in a year, but the CO of a ship won't get a replacement. If they if they let you go to a special program so that they were like, no.

• 38:10Jocko Willink?

  It's just not happening.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  We're you're staying here. We can't be undermanned. And so.

• 38:14Jocko Willink?

  At what point did you commit to like, I'm going back to BUDs, I'm gonna make it?

• 38:18Speaker 02

  So this is an interesting story and it it talks about, you know, it's all about

• 38:26Speaker 02

  taking taking risk at times because Jaco, when when my orders came through to go to BUDs, I still had a year left on my con my current contract. So I could have gone to BUDs either passed or failed and then, you know, whatever. Or if I failed, I could just get out. The Navy was like, nope, you're gonna reenlist for another four years if you want those orders. They dropped that on me the day that I was scheduled to leave the ship. I was so pissed. And I was just like, I can't believe it because I'm face, I'm staring down the barrel because I.

• 38:59Jocko Willink?

  Are you so you at the four year mark now?

• 39:01Speaker 02

  I was at the three year mark.

• 39:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Oh, so your first enlistment was like three years because you didn't get through BUDs?

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Well, it was, I had a four year enlistment, but when my orders came through, I was at my three year mark.

• 39:11Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  So I had enough time on my contract where even if I went to BUDs failed out, I could just.

• 39:17Jocko Willink?

  Just get out.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  I'm out, clean, clean escape, don't have to come back to the fleet, but the Navy is like, nope. You're signing a four, they they knew, they know that how much of leverage they have on kids that want to go back to SEAL training or do SEAL training or special program or whatever. And so like, I remember calling some mentors in my life. I was like, hey, man, this is what I'm staring at. What do you think? And I also, I was just praying. I was like, Lord, this is the only thing, this is the only thing on my heart. And I was even praying while I was underway on the Gettysburg. I was like, Lord, if this is not what you want me to do, please take it from me. Because I don't, I want to walk in your favor. I want to, I want to be the man you want me to be and I want to do what you want me to do. But this is the only thing on my heart.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  And so if it's not what you want me to do, please like path me out of here, you know, you know, you know, send me down the path, whatever path you want me to go down because I'm a knucklehead. And if, if you don't help me and guide me and direct me in this, I'm going to probably make a bad decision. And so, um, but yeah, it was still, it was still, the fire still burned, you know, to go back, even knowing that if I didn't make it, I was going to be right back in the fleet. So that's one of the hard things about the Navy, all, all you young men that listen to this show, you know, is it, at least in the Marines or in the Army, man, it's like, if you don't make it through a program, you can go be in a conventional unit and fight, bro, you're going to be fighting some, uh,

• 40:42Speaker 02

  rust and some dust in the Navy, bro. You're polishing some brass, sweeper, sweepers, man, man your broom, dude. It's bad.

• 40:52Jocko Willink?

  And it must've been super hard to prepare now, since you're on a ship underway, two deployments in two years, you're eating food that sucks for your health.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Chili dogs, baby. Chili dogs.

• 41:04Jocko Willink?

  What, how did you stay in shape or how'd you get in shape?

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Um, once I got, once I knew that my orders, I, once I submitted my package, I went right back to, hey, I gotta drop a bunch of weight. I'd gotten a little bit stronger, put on a little bit more muscle. Um, but I started dropping the weight again so that, you know, I could keep, keep up on the runs and whatnot. Sometimes they'd let us run around the ship. Um, sometimes, uh, you know, sometimes they wouldn't, but you know, I just did, anytime I got the opportunity to work out, I did. And, uh, you know, I was hoping that the, uh, increased maturity was really going to help me out a lot. But, you know, I just worked out whenever I can. And I, I definitely don't feel like I was

• 41:49Speaker 02

  ready just because of what I came out of, but I was more ready mentally to, you know, go back. And I think that was where my biggest, where my biggest issue was.

• 41:58Jocko Willink?

  And so you get back to buds.

• 42:02Jocko Willink?

  Easier this time or maybe not easier, but you were more mentally prepared?

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was. It was easier in the fact that I was mentally prepared and I knew, you know, I'd seen a lot of the movie already. Um, the difference was is that when I got back the second time, right off the bat, I got pneumonia and so I failed. So I already have horrible lungs and now I've got pneumonia, like just ravaging them. And so I failed my first two runs and like, so they were like, look, if you fail one more run, you're done. We're dropping you. And I hadn't even got back to hell week. So I'm like, I'm like, oh my God, dude, I'm not even going to get back to where I was, where I made it to the first time. And so thank God, I, uh, passed my third

• 42:47Speaker 02

  run and, uh, got an opportunity to go into hell week. And so thankfully, you know, I made it, you know, passed that run, made it through hell week and then, but I was on the bubble, the entire rest of SEAL training for runs. Yeah. And I was a horrible runner. Every time like came in like may, you know, four, three, two, you know, one second.

• 43:09Jocko Willink?

  Passes.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 43:12Jocko Willink?

  Uh, was hell week, was it, was it better going through the first time when you didn't really know what to expect or the second time where you did know what to expect? Which one was better? Which one was worse?

• 43:24Speaker 02

  For me, the second one was much better just because, um, I think that there's a lot of, you know, fear and anxiety going into something like that, that you know, has taken out so many men better than you or perceivably better than you and stronger than you and faster than you. And you can't argue with the data. I mean, so many guys don't make it through that. Um, and so I, I knew I could make it through it. I, and I also knew there was a part of me that was like, I'd only stayed awake for maybe forty eight hours before going into hell week the first time, maybe, probably not even that long, probably like thirty, something like that.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  And so there's a part of you that's like, if you've never done something, okay, how am I gonna stay awake? How's the body even do that? Stay awake for five and a half days and just get destroyed the entire time? And so there's always that part of you that's like, okay, I know they can't kill me, but this just doesn't make a lot of sense. At the end of the day, I'm exhausted, I'm tired. What would, what would things look like if, if I didn't sleep for five, five and a half days? How would I function? How? So the fact that I'd already done it and gone through it, I was like, I know I can do this. I know that, you know, one of the things that I like to tell people, this is how it felt for me was, you know how Echo, you always get like a, even today, you'll probably get a second wind, you'll feel tired and then you'll get a second wind. That's how I felt.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  I felt like every time, like, you know, five, six, seven hours into, you know, into it, I'd get tired, I'd just wait an hour and then I'd get a second wind and I'd be right back in it. And that's kind of cool that your body works that way, but they also said that your body will stop, like shutting, it'll start shutting down functions that aren't necessary to survival, like growing fingernails or facial hair. I don't know if that's true, but that's what they told us.

• 45:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's crazy. And, and then that's it. I mean, you, you, you make it through BUDs the second time, even though you're on the bubble the entire time for runs.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 45:24Jocko Willink?

  But you make it through.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  I make it through and then I'm told, I get orders, SEAL Team Three. Most of my class got orders to the East Coast. There were only six of us that stayed on the West Coast. I was one of the fortunate ones.

• 45:43Jocko Willink?

  So you, you get through it, you graduate, and where'd you get orders to?

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Uh, SEAL Team Three.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  And did that, did most of your class get West Coast, East Coast, even split? How'd they, how'd they do that?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  So only six of us stayed on the West Coast. Everybody else went to the East Coast. So I was, I felt lucky.

• 46:01Jocko Willink?

  Dang. And where was team three at the time? What was going on?

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Team three was already deployed at the time. You got it was you guys.

• 46:08Jocko Willink?

  This was oh six.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  This is Ramadi, oh six, yeah. So what they told us, Jaco, is it, alright, team three is deployed, you guys are just gonna stay here and go to schools. And so it was interesting because I had just married my wife in between buds and SQT. And so I'm like, this is awesome, babe. I'm just gonna, you know, hang out at the team and like, maybe, you know, sweep for a little bit and like go to a school every once in a while. We can start our life together. So why don't you move out? She had just graduated from University of Arizona. Like, why don't you move out? We can start our marriage together.

• 46:39Jocko Willink?

  Did you run that plan through the US Navy?

• 46:41Speaker 02

  No, but Jaco, the chief in charge of us was like, no, you guys are good to go. You're not deploying. We've, you know, we've talked it through, blah, blah, blah. And so she moves out, um, and we move into this little apartment here in Point Loma. And, uh, and then two weeks later, they're like, hey, uh, change of plans. You're deploying, uh, as soon as you're, you're gonna go through SIR school and then you're gonna deploy. And so I don't remember what, what it was that happened, but four of the guys went through SIR school the week before I did, and then they deployed. And so I went through SIR school by myself and then like flew over by myself

• 47:23Speaker 02

  on like a civilian airplane. And I'm just like, oh my dude, I was so stressed out. First time going to war. Don't know any of the guys that still team three. But my instructors have told us, hey, listen, you guys, when you get there, keep your mouth shut. Do what you're told. You're about to swim with some great white sharks. That's, that's basically the, the advice. And so I don't know anybody. I'm flying to war by myself. I don't even have any guns. And it's just like, you don't know, I had nothing to compare to. I'd, I'd, I'd been, I'd been on a ship before, but I'm flying into a war zone with no guns. Like, I don't know what's gonna, is the plane gonna land and like, I'm gonna have to P L F out of the plane? Cause there's like people shooting at us. Like, I have no idea or no context for what that's gonna look like.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  And then I'm gonna have to like integrate into this platoon of guys that already did a workup together. And so anyway, we were what 30 minutes down the road from you guys in Bravo Platoon. I think there were four or five of us, four of us that went to Bravo Platoon. And so we started immediately, you know, doing the new guy job, you know, making sure the Hummers are gassed up, making sure they're clean, making sure the windows have all the moon dust wiped off of, making sure the two 40s and the 50s are clean, oiled up, ready for the op. And then it was cool because they threw us into turret gunning immediately. And I was like, this is fantastic, man.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Cause all of our buddies, you know, are doing whatever they're doing on the east coast and we're already getting to go on ops with these guys.

• 48:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's freaking awesome.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  And the culture was, and that platoon was really cool in that, um, the rule was this, we're not messing with you unless we need to. And then if we need to, we're going to tighten you up. And, you know, but it was just like, as long as you, as long as you walk around on eggshells and do the new guy thing, you know, we'll, we'll leave you alone, but you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna do all the crappy jobs that nobody wants to do. You're gonna do it standing tall with respect. And, you know, I was totally, totally all about that. Things changed a little bit once I came into Bruiser, the very next pump.

• 49:33Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to think of, uh, how many guys came to task unit Bruiser in Ramadi.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  You guys got, you guys got Sal DeFranco.

• 49:42Jocko Willink?

  We got Sal.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  And another dude named Sean.

• 49:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Sean H.

• 49:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Um, Sal was, he, he was, he's such a nice guy. And he had, and he smiled all the time. This is the, this is the, this is the invention of normal face. So I had this thing I'd do with Sal where I, I'd taken the, the cardboard like innard from the spools of paper that we would print maps on.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:12Jocko Willink?

  And I'd sit there and I'd be like, all right, Sal, listen up, bro. You can't be, you're, you're like supposed to be a SEAL now. You can't be having this big smile on your face. You look like a dork. We don't look like dorks. And of course, this is all like hilarious. So he's smiling even more. And I'm like, okay, so here's what we're gonna do. You can't smile. If you smile, I'm gonna whack you in the head with this thing. And you know, so then I'd say, I go, ready? And he'd be like, yes, sir. And I go, go. And he couldn't, he couldn't keep like a, a normal face for a half a second. I'd have to whack him in the head, but he was a freaking good guy, funny and, and just had a good attitude, but he just smiled a lot. And of course, whatever you're gonna do, if you don't smile, you're gonna get beat for not smiling.

• 50:50Jocko Willink?

  If you smile too much, you're gonna get beat for smiling too much. So you're, you're gonna get beat. I mean, that's basically what the whole concept was when you rolled out.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  When we, when we get to, when we get to it, remind me to tell you a funny Sal DeFranco story that involved you in skits.

• 51:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  They made us do skits. It was hilarious.

• 51:11Jocko Willink?

  That must've been good. Uh, so, so you ended up, I mean, that's still even for Sal, for you, for you guys to roll on, out on a deployment. You haven't even done a work before you guys get to go out. You guys get to do some ops, get some experience, get to know what it's like to, uh, drive down the road in the middle of the night, waiting to get blowed up.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:29Jocko Willink?

  Which is, which is fun. Then, then what? So then, then deployment's over?

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Then the deployment's over. And I flew back on the, on the last bird. Um, and, uh,

• 51:45Jocko Willink?

  I wonder if, what, what, I wonder if we were on the same bird. If it was the last bird, we were on the last bird.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I was relaxed. So he wasn't there. But yeah. So anyway, I get, I get back and it's, it's weird because, um, all the guys had already been back. They were already like selecting the new platoons. I was on the last bird, so I get in late. And then, uh, I remember, you know, getting back, me and my wife, we, we, we schedule our first like date night. Like we're gonna finally get a go out and celebrate. Hey, hanging out, made it back, all that. And so I'm, we're, she's getting ready. I'm already ready to go like, you know, the, that goes out on date night. And I get a call from one of our, my other new guy buddies that just came back with me, but he came back, I think before me.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  And he's like, hey, you need to get down to Danny's right now. And I'm like, what? And he's like, yeah, bro, we're, we're in Delta Platoon now. Get down here right now. And I'm like, no, dude, I'm, I'm off. He's like, Eli, I'm not asking you. I'm telling you, get your ass down to Danny's now. So I gotta go tell my wife, like, hey, there's gonna be no date night. I don't know what's going on, but apparent, it sounds serious. So, so I'm rolling down.

• 53:01Jocko Willink?

  World War III is apparently broken out. There's a situation. It happens to be at a bar in Coronado.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so like I jump in my little green Honda Civic and I drive over the bridge as fast as I can without, you know, getting arrested. And he's like, he's like, just when you get to Danny's, come out behind the bar. And I'm like, oh, this sounds fantastic. He's like, yeah, we're in Delta Platoon. Chris Kyle's our LPO. And I'm like, awesome. And so I get there, I walk through the bar, all the new guys that I just like graduated, you know, SQT with, some of which went downrange, some of which didn't, are now standing at attention in lines behind Danny, just getting screamed at. And I'm like, holy, holy cow, dude. So yeah, that, that was, and so that night, you know, we were, you know,

• 53:48Speaker 02

  it was the in, in doctrine, in doc, in doc in the TU bruiser, right? And so this guy, this guy, you know, he, he wasn't there, but uh, um, it was just, yeah, it was, it was interesting because the culture had completely shifted to, hey, man, totally new, new group of dudes, new rules. And uh, yeah, I, I realized real quick that this was gonna be a interesting two years and you better be locked on. Like, we would come in, like, we would come into rooms, like, the new guys, like, back to back, like, firehans, ready to go because you, you didn't know what was, you didn't know what you were gonna be, get hit with, but

• 54:31Speaker 02

  they definitely, they definitely loved, uh, having new guys around, I'll tell you that right now.

• 54:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess that answers my question. I was gonna ask you if you got treated like a new guy, since you kinda would, like, had a little bit of a deployment. I guess the answer is a solid yes.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. They were like, yeah.

• 54:46Jocko Willink?

  In fact, like, a little bit worse, because they're like, you lucky bastard, you got to go over there and you didn't even do a workup.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  That was the thing. They're like, hey, that didn't count. You're doing a full workup. You will be a new guy for a, a full two years. And it was like, Roger that. And, you know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? So, it's all good.

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  Did you, uh, what, what position did you get in the platoon? Were you a dub?

• 55:10Speaker 02

  A dub, turret gunner. Yep. And it was, it was cool, but I, I like to talk about my failures. Cause I think that's where the gold often is. Um, Chris actually sat down with each and every one of us with his, like, little green notebook and he's like, alright, tell me, what, what are your goals? What do you wanna accomplish? What do you wanna do? And I said, I wanna become a sniper. And so, um, he actually, you know, and I think there were a couple other, but that was other guys that wanted to go to sniper school, but that was my number one thing. And so, he actually sent me to sniper school, my first as a new guy.

• 55:43Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I failed.

• 55:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  I know, man. I made it through pick and then scout, and then I didn't qualify, um, expert on the, the M4, the 200 yard qual that you have to do before you actually get to go to sniper school. And so I was, that was hard walking. Can you, you'd imagine coming back and telling Chris, hey, I just blew that. And so, they didn't get an extra billet.

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Because I, I failed. So Chris wasn't happy about that. It definitely went in the book of woe.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  And, uh, yeah, so, uh, you know, paid, paid for that pretty dearly, but, you know, I mean, it, you know, it is what it is. Wasn't like I was, wasn't trying.

• 56:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the people, I guess it's hard to, it's hard to see from the public persona that got put out of Chris of like how funny he was and how like shit talking he was and just like, and the other thing that sounds crazy is the, the prank, like he liked to do like pranks on people like a little kid, you know?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  He did. That was when people ask me all the time, they're like, so what do you think of that movie? And I was like, oh, you know, the movie's, you know, it's decent, whatever. But I was like, the number one thing that they screwed up was like that. They missed like how funny he was and his sense of humor and how he was always doing something shady. Always doing something shady. So, but, but I guess I don't, maybe it wouldn't, maybe Hollywood didn't think it'd be as cool of a movie as if, you know, they portrayed him that way.

• 57:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess they would have had to make it into a, like a mini series or something where they could, where they could develop the character, develop his personality. So you could see all sides, which would have made it more impactful. Because then you'd see, hey, this guy that is very funny, loves his family and likes to clown around, also can be totally serious and, and has a very, has the most serious job. But, you know, they got to take all that stuff. And like you said, they got to make it into a movie that's an hour and a half long and that's, that's what they did.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, they took like fifteen, twenty years of his life and condensed it into an hour and a half. So, I mean, you know, that, that can't be easy to do.

• 57:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, how was that workup? Good. So I was, I was, I was running your workup.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thank you, by the way. My God, dude. Unbelievable.

• 58:07Jocko Willink?

  Do you carry any wounded guys anymore?

• 58:08Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, we actually, dude, it was so crazy. Like, um, you know, and it was cool to see you because you'd come out all the time and, uh,

• 58:20Speaker 02

  I can't remember which ones, which years you were even out for, but it was, I do remember doing like, you know, seven click insert in, you know, you know, hit, hit the target and then on the way exfil, this guy would put half of our guys down at least. So I mean,

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  I wouldn't, you guys would, you guys would get tore up by their op four.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  All right. I think there might have been a little,

• 58:45Jocko Willink?

  I wanted you to win, bro. I wanted you to win.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  I think there might've been a little bit of a suggestion from this guy to make it as hard as humanly possible, just by reading some of his stuff. And, but I, you know, it was interesting because like you would, you know, you do your op, you do your mission and then like you've got another, you know, click or two to exfil out and, you know, trade it's putting down over half of your guys. And so, you know, you're, it's already, you've already got your body armor on, you've got like a machine gun. You've already got like, you know, you're loaded for bear and now you've got to carry, you know, another 250, maybe even depending on his size. We had some beasts in my platoon. So, you know, maybe another 300 pound dude. And it was just like brutal. I remember,

• 59:32Speaker 02

  remember one time I was getting ready to pick up a down seal and it was Chief D. And, uh, he's a big muscular dude, the type of guy that was, you did not want to piss off.

• 59:43Jocko Willink?

  Let's, and also let's say like, he's not going to be super light.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  He is not super light. Yeah. He's, he's really heavy. And so I,

• 59:51Jocko Willink?

  And he's a freaking stud. Like you just want to be, like everyone just wants to like, do good, especially his guys, you know, they want to, they want to kick ass for him.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  And so I had my guns on my back, but I didn't like have it retention or anything. So I went down to like grab his upper torso and my gun comes over top and hits him on the head. And I was, he was like, oh my God, who did that? Thank God it was nighttime and he couldn't see who did it. And I got Jaco, I didn't take extreme ownership because he would have killed me. And I just like, I just, we, we got him up and we, you know, we started moving him, but extreme ownership might've cost me my life right there. So, yeah, we didn't, I didn't tell Chief D that it was me that didn't sling my gun and just smacked him in the face.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  But yeah, it, it would, I, I think the good thing about the way that you ran training was that there was nothing that I ever faced that was even close to the, the training. And I think that's a good thing.

• 1:00:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  I wasn't always happy with you about it. I remember one time you were out at, I think you were out at, uh, San Clemente or something. And instead of like, okay, we, we do the day runs, we do the night runs, we go to sleep. There were, you didn't let us go to sleep. It was just like, okay, T S T, here we go. We're, we're going back into town. We gotta go hit this. I'm like, oh God, dude.

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  Well, I always thought of like day runs, night runs, morning runs, mid afternoon runs.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  Brunch runs. How's that sound? We'll get a little bit of that. And Stoner was your T U commander?

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was, uh, he was the T U commander there from oh six to oh eight, right after you left.

• 1:01:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Yep. And that's when he got, that's when he got hurt.

• 1:01:37Jocko Willink?

  Yep. He broke his neck. Yeah, that happened. Luckily he didn't break his spine. He just broke vertebrae in his neck when a dude fell off, fell off, one of the other new guys.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:01:49Jocko Willink?

  Fell off of the ship boarding and landed on top of him, broke his neck. I remember I'm, I was at, obviously I was at Trade At and I get the call like, hey, we got an injury. And I'm like, all right, Roger. And then I got like a text from someone. It's like, hey, it's Stoner. And I was like, check. Went up to the hospital, but thank God he, uh, he didn't break his spinal cord. So he was able to.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:14Jocko Willink?

  Put on a neck brace, kind of walk through the rest of, until that was healed up and, and still able to go on deployment. Cause he wasn't going to stay home. I mean, come on.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  No. Well, that brings up another funny story because, uh, remember, uh,

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  I don't know if this guy's still in. Anyway, our LT during that period Texan guy Jimmy.

• 1:02:37Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Yep.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  He uh, he made us roll. He made us do jujitsu three times a week, right? He's, you know, all of them, you know, following, following this guy's footstep. And it, and so we would, we would roll. We'd do jujitsu before, um, before the day started. And, uh, I remember one time I got somebody, I can't remember who it was, another LT in a triangle choke. And I, I was tying it in good and he, he's picked me up, stacked me and dropped me on my neck. And I heard something go pop, pop. And I was like, okay, you know, and we did a quick timeout and I was like, okay, I can still move it. And then we, we finished the day. I'm okay. Like we finished the rolling. I feel okay. And then it is take a shower and then it starts getting real, real tight and real stiff.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  And I, I'm like, man, I don't, this is, this doesn't feel right. Maybe I should go say something. So.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  I made a mistake and I went and said something and I told Chris, I was like, hey, I did something while I was rolling. I heard some pops in my neck and, uh, it's starting to get really, really tight. And he's like, okay, go over to medical. So medical made, um, called an Ambu. Who came to the, to this, you know, three, picked me up, put like, put me on like a bed or whatever.

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Took me to Balboa, did x-rays or whatever. And they're like, you know, they're like, oh, you're good. You're good to go. So they, they brought me back and, uh, but they made me put a neck brace on. And so I walk in to see Chris and, uh, and I'd taken the neck brace off and he's like, so, uh, what, what happened? And I'm like, I'm good to go. They did x-rays. He's like, did they give you anything? And I'm like, well, this neck brace, but you know, I don't need it. I'm good. And he's like, no, put the neck brace on. So Chris had the guys paint it pink and then made me wear the neck brace for like the next week. And I was like, even when we like, cause we were just getting ready to go to Pendleton. And so he made me wear it out in town. He made me wear it everywhere. And I was just like, oh man, dude.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  I'm never saying anything ever again.

• 1:04:39Jocko Willink?

  Like I said, you like to have some fun.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:04:44Jocko Willink?

  And then, uh, so, so how was that deployment?

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  It was, you know, it was, I think it was good. I know a lot of guys weren't happy about it, but we started on the Syrian border in Al-Qa'im. We turned over with an SF unit. And the deployment started out by, with our primary focus, trying to stop foreign fighters and equipment and, you know, all sorts of money and stuff flowing in from Syria into Iraq. And so we did a lot of desert patrols. And, you know, that, it's not, I don't think it's what team guys really love doing, but it, you know, it is what it is. And then probably, and we, we actually spent a lot of the first month and a half building up a structure to

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  live in. So we called ourselves SEALBs. Like, we had two CBs that were like constantly telling us what to do, how to build this structure. And so we built that. And then after we got that finished, that's when I think the army called and said, hey, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna cordon off Sadr City. And we need some SEAL snipers and some guys to come in and help us do that. Cause Al-Sadr's militia was killing the Iraqi contractors that were building the wall. And so that's when Stoner and Chris and several other guys, some were RG33 techs, some, some were comms guys, and many of them were snipers from SEAL Team Eight.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  And then from SEAL Team Three, they formed like this super troop, which Stoner was in charge of. And so they, they went and left us, I think four of them went from our platoon. And then the rest of us stayed back and we just went all over, you know, went all over the country. We flew some Humvees up to Mosul. And then towards the end of deployment, Chris came back and I actually got to go and, you know, be a part of that for like the last month and a half or something like that. But it, it was a, you know, it was a decent platoon, but we were all over. I mean, instead of operating out of one place, we spent time

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  in Al-Assad. We spent time in, I think, Hitt, Haditha. We, we even, we even built a new base in Rawa when Al-Qa'im got shut down. So we were just like transient all over the place.

• 1:07:11Jocko Willink?

  It it always sucks when you're not like with your whole platoon. It's also there's cool things about traveling all over the place that my first deployment to Iraq. We we lived in Baghdad the whole time, but we would go out to all over the country. So that was kind of, you know, you just get to see different areas and we'd stay for a day here, two days here. Some random like SF outstation in the middle of nowhere and hang out with them. Do do whatever we can to support and then come back. So that that's kind of cool. And then my second deployment to Iraq, I didn't leave Ramadi, like I was just there the entire time. And that was also cool in a different way. So kind of different experiences. They're both they both have something cool about them.

• 1:07:52Jocko Willink?

  They also have some things that kind of, you know, uh, might not be as cool. But uh, what was like the big lessons learned on that deployment for you as a human?

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  Let's see, be, you know, be flexible, you know, be adaptable. I I found that that that was so key in that in that job is um, just to be flexible, adaptable, and try and keep a a positive mental outlook at all, you know, at all times. And and the other thing too, I started to see like, I started to see how um, negativity, complaining could affect the morale of the group. And it, you know, it could be detrimental. And so you always try and, you know, be, you know, be a part of not bringing people down, bringing the group down, but just being positive, you know, because there was some,

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  there was some of that going on in that group, like um, you know, some some real negativity. And uh, you know, I I get it. I I understand why, but at the same time, I don't, I don't know that it, you know, was very productive in making us the most cohesive, you know, fighting unit that we could possibly be.

• 1:09:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, when when that real simple idea of complaining and it's so bad. And that's one thing I picked up from wherever in the teams was like, hey, don't complain. Don't ever complain about anything. Don't complain if you're cold, don't complain if you're hot, don't complain if you've been awake too long. Don't complain about anything, just don't complain, just don't complain and.

• 1:09:40Jocko Willink?

  You know, obviously not everyone gets on board with that program, but it never, it never complaining just never helps anything, just doesn't. Like if you, hey, if you want to joke about it, that's cool. If you want to jokingly, you know, bring something up because you're going to make it, you're going to make fun of the situation you're in, man, that's a different thing. But if you're going to legit, if you're going to seriously say it's too hot, it's too cold, we're not getting the support we need. This is bullshit. Like those attitudes, they're just, they're just, they're just not good. And that's why I always liked that, that team guy that you just never hear him complain. Or when someone does complain, when you get, when you get the right crew, someone starts to complain, they get shut down, you know? And that's a good attitude to have.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  Is that where good?

• 1:10:26Jocko Willink?

  That is, that is a hundred percent where good comes from. That's, that's freaking stoner. That was stoner coming to tell me, coming to complain me about something.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Jocko Willink?

  And me saying, and him saying like, I already know what you're going to say. And I'm like, what? And he, he says, you're going to say good because that's what you say about everything. And it's true. I'd be like, oh, we don't, we don't, oh, we're going to have to stay out freaking at this desert warfare training facility for an extra two weeks? Good. We're going to get better at, whatever it is.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:52Jocko Willink?

  Let's not complain. That's not the deal. Uh, so you get home from that deployment?

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:11:00Jocko Willink?

  And it's another platoon because you're a new guy still, kind of. Now you're one cruise wonder, one and a half cruise wonder.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  There's always something, man.

• 1:11:10Jocko Willink?

  Did you go, did you end up going back to sniper school?

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  I did, yeah.

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  Where, when you got home?

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. So thankfully I, I just got to go qualify and then I got to pick up where I left off. I, I learned a little trick that really helped me. You know how on our pistols, you, you know, front sight focus, you have that little green dot and whatever, or the little white dot. Well, I was like, I was looking at the front sight post on my, you know, M4 Iron sight. And I was like, it's just straight black. I mean, aim small, miss small. And I was like, I took a little paint pen and I. Just put the tiniest little white dot on my front sight post and that really helped me to like, put it where I needed to and just I started doing a lot of dry firing in the positions that I was gonna have to shoot and

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  did well on the test and then went out to sniper school. I did really good on the shooting, but I was really bad at the stalking and I was like on the bubble the entire time and uh, but you know, made it through sniper school, got my sniper suite and then uh, unfortunately by that point in 2010, we went to Fallujah and um, they wouldn't allow us to take sniper weapons on ops. They were trying to deescalate the war and snipers don't typically do that. They typically throw gasoline on things, so.

• 1:12:31Jocko Willink?

  So that, were you still a pig gunner in that or did you move to point man or something?

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I moved to point man and uh, lead navigator as well. I was also running ordinance department, so. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was good. Um, you know, and I was, I felt it for the first time, I felt like, I didn't feel like I was some great operator, but I felt like, I felt confident for, you know, cause it takes a while. I mean, there's so much that you, there's so much from like comms to, you know, understanding maps to, you know, the, the physicality side of it to, you know, small unit tactics that you're trying to pick up and learn, but in the, in special forces, you'll spend two, two weeks doing this and then you'll spend a month doing that.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  And then sometimes it'll be four months before, before you shoot your gun again, you know, and it's like, so I feel like um, by that point, you know, in my service, I finally felt like I was, you know, okay, I feel comfortable doing this. I feel like I'm decent at it, you know?

• 1:13:38Jocko Willink?

  The learning curve of doing platoons, I think exactly correlates to the learning curve of having children. And your first kid, you have no idea what's going on. You're a total idiot and, but you learn so much by your second kid. You're like, okay, we, we kinda got this. By your third kid, you're like, I'm dialed, I'm ready. By your fourth kid, you're like, I got this, like, we're, we're making shit happen.

• 1:14:01Jocko Willink?

  But you see guys in their first platoon, man, it's a lot of, it's a lot of stuff, especially nowadays. Like when I was in my first platoon, it was like, okay, you're a radio man, there's three radios, like it's, it was just, we weren't doing nods, we didn't have lasers on our weapons. Everything was easier and guys now, they have a lot more to learn. Just even with the technical side, they have more to learn and then from the operational side, there's more to learn. That's the way it goes.

• 1:14:29Jocko Willink?

  So that, what'd you do on that deployment?

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:14:33Jocko Willink?

  So as you're, as now we're de-escalating, is this like 2010 now?

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  Yep, it's 2010, we're de-escalating, uh, we were partnered up with Fallujah SWAT team. We were still doing, you know, some DAs here and there, we were doing a lot of FID with them, making sure that, you know, they, they knew what they were doing. And we actually started, me and one of our JOs kind of ran the FID and we were just making sure, we were trying to turn more and more of the op over to them. So by the time, by the time that platoon was over with, we would go on an op and there were only allowed to be four SEALs on the ground. You had to have, for every one SEAL, I think you had to have five Iraqis. That was the ratio it had to be. And so the, you know, the closest call I ever had was a night where we got ambushed by three dudes

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  and we only had four SEALs on the ground. We had, we had, I think, two, three gun trucks. So we had three RG33s with those remote weapon system, the remote 50 cal. But yeah, I mean, it was, it was interesting getting, you know, in an ambush like that where you only got four dudes and then a bunch of, a bunch of Fallujah SWAT team guys and you're like, you know, at one point, uh, our AOIC at the time, he was like, he was on my side of the street.

• 1:15:53Jocko Willink?

  Just give us like, give us start to finish a little bit.

• 1:15:55Speaker 02

  Okay, so it was really interesting Jaco because as we were turning over things to the Iraqi so that they could hopefully stand on their own once we left, one of the, one of the very last things that we turned over to them was the actual coordinates for the target we were gonna hit. And as a point man, I was sharing that responsibility with another, another one of my, you know, another, another guy in that platoon. And so we were, we were like doing blue and gold shifts. It was my night. And so they gave me like, hey, this is the, this is the eight digit grid we're hitting. These are, you know, maps, you know, of, of, of the area that we're going to. We were actually going to Abu Ghraib, which is like

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  a suburb of Baghdad. And which is like a 45 minute drive from Fallujah. And so they were like Eli.

• 1:16:44Jocko Willink?

  Notoriously nasty part of the city. Yeah, the, like the prisons there that everyone's heard about Abu Ghraib prison, but it's also like a part of town. And it's, it's notoriously a pretty bad part of town.

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a real bad part. And anyway, so they, I can't remember who told me, but they were like, hey, Eli, this is the first night we're gonna give these guys the grid coordinates. So I want you to walk over there with an interpreter, what, you know, go outside our main base, go to their, where they, where they were sleeping, the Fallujah SWAT team, give them, give them the grid coordinates for the target we're hitting tonight. Ask them, make sure that they know where we're going because they're actually gonna lead, lead us out. And so I walked over there, I gave them the, you know, the grid coordinate, I gave them the, all the maps and pictures. I was like, do you guys know where this is? And they're like, yeah, we know where this is. And so I was like, and at the time we had.

• 1:17:35Jocko Willink?

  Did you feel funky about that?

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  Very. And this made it worse too. We knew, we knew that there was one of them that was every time we left the wire that he, he was calling and telling people which direction we were headed. So, you know, you, you always, you always feel really, really shady about that. And so gave it to them. And then probably at like one in the morning or something, we took off. Started driving, driving there and I noticed soon as we drive into the neighborhood, there's like sirens on it all over the neighborhood and like, like we're already blown. And so we, we did like a video, a video drop off, like vehicle drop off like 600 yards from the target because the RGs are pretty loud and we didn't want them to hear us like foot patrolling in or the vehicles.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  And so we get out and there's four seals on the ground and then there's like 20 Fallujah SWAT team members and we, we start taking off and I'm also point man that night. So it's like a 600, it's only a 600 yard patrol into target. And so we're walking down this really, really wide street. And so I put us into a, like a file formation so that at least a couple of us can engage if we get a contact front. And so we're walking and probably halfway to the target.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  And I noticed that like-

• 1:18:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, staggered file. You said file. You meant staggered file.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  I'm sorry.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, good. Oh, good. I'm just trying to trick, make sure I'm tracking.

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Thanks. And so we're walking and, and I'm noticing as I'm walking, because you're always, when you're patrolling, you're always looking for like cover concealment. Hey, if we get contacted from the front, where can I duck, duck into? Is there a wall or a door or something like in? And I noticed everything's boarded up. Bars everywhere. Nothing, nothing is open. And so halfway there, all of a sudden dude, three dudes with, one had an RPK machine gun and then the other two, I think had AKs. But we had a, we had a predator overhead. We had, I think, two Apaches and we had a

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  AC 130 gunship over. I'd never, we'd never gotten that much air in any op I'd ever been on. And so three guys opened up on us and it was surreal because the guy with the RPK, no kidding, had probably 200 rounds belted together of tracer. So it was, you, you could see every bullet flying over us. And, you know, in training that you, you're taught, okay, you hit the ground, make your, make yourself as small as possible, make yourself a small target and then return fire, gain fire superiority. And then somebody's gonna, you know, we're, we're gonna maneuver, whatever the call is gonna come out, it's gonna be. And so-

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  I remember hitting the ground and just watching, you know, tracer rounds fly over us for probably a minute and a half before he had to reload. And then I could see the other two, the other two guys muzzle flashes. I'm thinking to myself, I thought, you know what? If I can see their muzzle flashes, even though I have a suppressor on my gun, because they're shooting high. I was like, if I open up right now and they, the suppressor doesn't work as well as I hope it does, and they, they pinpoint my location, I'm dead. Because it was, when we went back and looked at the footage from the pred feed, it was only 110 yard engagement. So it's very close. And, um, so I did-

• 1:20:56Jocko Willink?

  Were they in a building? Were they on a roof or something or not?

• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  They were coming, they were coming around a building. So I got to watch, like-

• 1:21:03Jocko Willink?

  So they were external? So you could actually see them even from the pred? Because they were outside of the building?

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  You could see them from the pred. I couldn't see them, you know, even on nods. All I could see was their muzzle flash. And, uh, so anyway, like I wait and I noticed that the, the, the lull of the fire dies down. And so as soon as it dies down, like I get up and I'm, like I said, I'm really slow. So, but I'm, I'm running back and I, I must've been cooking, Echo. And I'm like, I'm moving as fast as I can. And I'm pretty, I'm pretty light. I only have, I think, four mags on me, you know, M4 mags on me. And I'm running back and AOC, AOC is over here and he had found, he's like, I got, I got an out, I got an out. And that for us means, hey, man, I got some

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  cover, come over here. And so I come over and I start, I bump him off. And then, you know, start, I, I start returning fire. And the gun trucks by this point pull up next, you know, next to me. And then, um, this fight, I don't know, goes, this gunfight goes on for, I don't know, maybe, maybe another couple of minutes. And then the gun trucks start, you know, blasting these dudes with 50 cal and it like ends like that. They're like, no, we're done. But it was, it was, um, it was interesting because like, the, the AOC was like, hey, let's flank. Let, let's, let's, and I, I was just thinking to myself, I was thinking to myself, hey, we were already blown when we

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  came in. These guys knew the gig was up. They knew we were coming here because there were sirens all over the place. We've got a bunch of our, you know, Fallujah SWAT team guys. We know at least one of them is working on the other side. And they're not like a, they're not a good fighting force at all. I'm like, I was like, bro, I don't think that's a good idea. And I say we hold what we got and get the hell out of here. And thankfully, you know, and I don't know how it would have worked out if we would have done, you know, what, what he wanted to. He was just being a hard charging, you know, oh, who was, he was, he wanted to make moves and, you know, go just smoke these dudes, but I had a real bad feeling about it. And so, you know, thankfully, he was like, he listened to me and he was like, let's hold what we got.

• 1:23:16Speaker 02

  And we, you know, jumped in the trucks and we got the, got the hell out of there. And then it was crazy because, because believe it or not, it was actually um, Iraqi policemen that ambushed us. And so then they roll up. And it's like this, it gets this heated exchange, like what WTF are you guys doing? You know, because we, we had to pass, you know how that works where you have to pass up to, you know, their higher ups, like where we're going to be operating. So there's deconfliction that goes on. And it got really, it was starting to get a little tense. And I remember there were, we had some guys in the trucks. You know, just some shooters in the trucks. I'm like, hey, you guys get out of those trucks.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  If this goes down, we need to, we need to make sure that we finish this. And so anyway, nobody got, nobody got hurt on our side, which I couldn't believe because like I was watching hundreds of tracer rounds stream into my chief's position. I thought he was done. Cause he didn't come up over comms for probably 40 seconds to kind of make a call on what, what he wanted. But um, anyway, we got back, we drove back to Fallujah after that and it was kind of wild because um,

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  The ROIC at the time, who was actually, who was actually my swim buddy and Buzz and a really good friend of mine, he, you know, thankfully, he didn't bring this up in the debrief, but he was like, uh, he came to me in the team room. He's like, Eli, what were, what were you doing? What were you doing tonight? And I'm like, what are you, what are you talking about, dude? He's like, I was screaming at you from inside the RG 33 to get back. Cause I was, once I bumped that guy out, I, I came out on the left and I started trying to engage their muzzle flashes with my laser. And he was like, uh, he's like, bro, he's like, the wall right behind you, rounds were exploding right over your head. They had a total beat on you. They were just shooting like

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  a foot high. And I was like, dude, I'm sorry, bro. I could not hear you. And that's one thing I learned on that deployment is that those cool silings that we have that like work as comms pieces, but also ear pro, you can't hear the crack over your head because they cancel that anything over like 105 decibels or whatever they were canceling it out. So I couldn't hear it. I didn't know they had a beat on me, but um, you know, thankfully, you know, uh,

• 1:25:41Jocko Willink?

  Moose can't shoot too well. Thankfully Moose shoots a little high at night.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  Thank God, man. But, but yeah, that was, that was interesting that, um, because, because of the situation and we had so many Jundies or, you know, I flew just SWAT team members with us. Um, it really limited our ability to do stuff when we needed to.

• 1:26:06Jocko Willink?

  So you wrap up that deployment?

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:11Jocko Willink?

  Um, and then what's your plan? Cause now you've got two platoons. You maybe could do a third platoon. You maybe could go to training cell or trade debt. Maybe you know, what's your options? What are you looking at? What do you make up your mind to do?

• 1:26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I was looking at a couple of different things. My body was pretty tore up at that point. I'd I'd hurt my back really bad. You know, weightlifting and I had the Navy wasn't able to diagnose it at the time. Turns out once I got out of the Navy and went to like a civilian doc, like Laser Spine Institute in Phoenix, they were like, hey, man, you got, you know, you got some stress fractures in your spine. You've got some, you know, some stuff going on. We can either give you a fusion or we can just give you shots. And I was just like, okay, I'll just wait. But my back was pretty messed up at that time. It really, you know, was pretty excruciating just to even wear body armor. And so I'm looking at that. I'm looking at the fact

• 1:27:09Speaker 02

  that I've kind of done what I came to do as far as like I wanted to go serve my country. And and I had little, you know, I was kind of watching my little kids grow up in pictures or my oldest grow up in pictures. And I was just like, man, you know, that was kind of tearing tearing at me a little bit. And so I was like, I was like, I'm either gonna go

• 1:27:31Speaker 02

  through our like ASO program. I need something new. If I'm gonna stay and do this, I'm gonna either need to go like ASO or screen or something, but I'm not, you know, I need to, you know, I need to some change. And so started thinking about it. I was definitely praying about it. And while I was on that deployment, I actually was like, but I want to make sure that I give myself enough time to make a good decision. Cause my family's counting on it. And so I actually re enlisted on that deployment and at the time, you could give your kids the GI Bill if you re enlisted, you had enough time in. And, you know, and so I split, I gave my daughter my GI Bill and re enlisted for four so that I had enough time to plan the exit.

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  And at that point, I was pretty confident that I was done, you know, you know, deploying and I was, I started focusing on, okay, I need to, I need to exit. And I did, I did, you know, talk to some folks about ASO. I looked at it a little bit. I never really looked at screening. And then as I went to the recruiting directorate after that.

• 1:28:38Jocko Willink?

  So that's when you got home from deployment?

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:28:40Jocko Willink?

  You went to the recruiting directorate? I don't even know what that is.

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  Right. No, most people don't. Um, so when I came into the Is it NSW recruiting director? Yep. Got it. When I came into the teams, uh, we only were filling 60% of our billets at the schoolhouse. So that's why guys like me could come, you know, I knew guys that went to BUDS three or four times. But now if you, even if you come, well, I'm working off old information, but when I was at the recruiting director, even if you like were an Olympic athlete and you came in there and you crushed the screen test like it'd never been crushed before, earliest spot you were getting was nine months out. You know, and so, um, what, what the Navy did was, and the reason I took the job is because my old platoon chief,

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  an old, um, you know, master chief, uh, JT, you know, JT, yep. He, uh, he said, hey, Eli, if you come work for me, I'll let you go to school in the afternoon. So you can finish up that old degree, start work toward, working towards getting out. And I'm like, that sounds like pretty cool. And, uh, so I took that job, started doing that, uh, working for him. And, uh, you know, it was, it was interesting because the Navy sent us all over the country. They had done a Gallup survey that showed that there were seven different sports that young men were playing, um, that were, uh, enabling them to be more successful at a higher rate than, um, others. What were they?

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  So one was water polo. I think two was swimming and three was wrestling. And that's where we spent most of our time. And it made total sense to me because like football players weren't doing well. And it made sense to me because like I was a quarterback and they were like, you know, they put a red jersey on me like, don't hit that dude. Or like, you know, it was like, it was so position driven in football that, and when you look at it like wrestling, water pool, swimming, you know, the types of sports like that where it's like, it doesn't matter how big you are, you're doing everything, you know, and you're going to be held to a standard. You know, I mean, you look at big old echo or what position you play echo? Wide receiver. That was a lot smaller. Are you kidding me?

• 1:30:53Jocko Willink?

  He's only 185 back then.

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, my God, dude.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  We've been through this.

• 1:30:56Speaker 02

  Long time ago. Holy cow, bro. Did you like eat a cornerback or something? In the meantime. But yeah, like even as like, you know, as a wide receiver, like they would make, you know, you know how it was. It was like, okay, this is your position. This is what we want you to be good at, but we're not going to focus you in, in, in, in SEAL training, bro. It's like, nobody cares how big you are, what position you played. It's like you're doing, you're doing everything, you know? So those are the sports that the NSW director was trying to raise awareness.

• 1:31:30Jocko Willink?

  But you said seven sports. That's three. What were the other four? Do you remember?

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  It was, yeah, it was like crew, cross country, um, I think lacrosse.

• 1:31:41Jocko Willink?

  Lacrosse, wrestling, water polo. Yeah.

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it was, but that's where we spent the most of our time on those three. And they would send what they called SEAL Scouts around to those type of events in high school, college, and we, what we would do is we'd show a video of like, you can't, you can't recruit a SEAL. If you have to talk somebody into showing up to that and then they see it for real, they're like, no, I'm not doing this. So what we would actually try and do is just raise awareness, like this is an option for you and then, um, and, and then leave and then let them, you know, self-select themselves into it. And so we'd go around the country doing that. So I did that for about a year and a half and then got an opportunity to, to go over to Trade at and be in MAROPS.

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  Got a spot in VBSS and I started, you know, just, um, learning from the guy who was the LPO at the time. Actually got to go by his house last night and have a beer with him and have some dinner with him. But, uh, after that is when he left, he turned it over to me and I became the LPO of VBSS. And so honestly, that was the best training I got to go into entrepreneurship because as you know, like you, you have like a hundred times more of this than I ever did. But I'd never got put in a leadership position like that where there were so many things that you had to account for, so many things that you were tracking on, making sure things are going to be in the right place. And then also,

• 1:33:14Speaker 02

  When things don't go as planned, how do we flex? What do we do? What's a contingency? And so, you know, that was a phenomenal opportunity for me because I was even running my small business, Bottle Breacher, out of our one car garage in Point Loma while doing that and just working stupid hours. But, um, you know, that was really helpful in, you know, uh, you know, helping me learn how to be a better leader. Uh, but it was also cool to see too, just, you know, uh, being a part of being, being on the other side and watching, you know, the, the training cycle, how much goes into it and, uh, making sure that these guys are prepared when they go down range.

• 1:33:53Jocko Willink?

  So you're, you're teaching VBSS and you just mentioned this is when you started Bottle Breacher for the first time.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:57Jocko Willink?

  How'd that come about?

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  So it came about, um, I was actually, I knew I was getting out. I probably had, you know, two and a half years before my time was up, but I'd watched a lot of my buddies get out before me that had the same credentials, same qualifications. I watched them struggle, like to find something that they could actually sink their teeth into. And I knew that wasn't even an option for me because I had, I had a daughter or two at the time. And so I was like, man, Eli, you gotta figure this out. And so it was a little bit of fear that was driving me. But also going back to that identity early on, like, you know, I didn't, I, I didn't want to, you know, that one of the things that my brothers used to call me was a fuck up. They used to call me that all the time.

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  And I'm not trying to throw F moms on your show. I know this is, you know, some kids listen to the show, but you know, it is what it is. And so there was a part of me that, you know, still had that identity in the back of my mind, like, hey, well, maybe you got lucky and became a SEAL, but this is when you're actually going to show the world that you are, you know, that, that F up. And so, um, you know, not only did I not want to be that, but I also wanted to make sure that my little girls and my wife were provided for. So like, I was doing that, you know, the VBSS thing, the LPO thing and running Bottle Breacher at the same time. But the way it actually came about was, I remember my little brother, who is a Marine Corps pilot, he is a Cobra pilot.

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  He went, he went to the PI and at one of the outdoor markets there, got a 50 cal bottle opener. And he brought it back and he gave it to me. And I was like, dude, this, what is this thing? It opens your beer? No way. Try it. Yep. Sure enough, it does. And I was like, dude, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen. And uh, so I put it in my junk drawer and then when my buddies would come over to my house, like watch a UFC or something. They were like, dude, that is badass. Where can I get one? And I was always like, I don't know, man, unless you go to the Philippines. But I started thinking about it and I was, I actually went up to LA um, for Thanksgiving. That my, some family members were having up there. And I remember on the way back, I was like, dude, that thing is cool, but it was real generic, just plain brass, all dinged up.

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  And I was like, but it could be way better. And so I came back and I went into my garage and I spray painted it black. And then I, I had bought a bunch of Punisher stickers, cause I made platoon DVDs for my last, my last platoon. And I took one of the little Punisher stickers, once the paint dried and I put it on there and it was like, ah, I was like, oh my God, this thing is insane. And so I took it to work. You know, the next, you know, the next day or so, I showed it to my buddies. They were like, dude, this is maybe the coolest thing I've ever seen. Make me one. Make me five for every guy in my family. And so that's when the light bulb like came on, like, this thing is cool, but it could be way better. And nobody that I knew of, or any of my buddies knew of, was selling them in the States.

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  And so it was at that time, my wife was, she was running a couple online or one, she, she'd, she'd had success with some online businesses, just small little online businesses, like boutiques and stuff. But she knew how to work, you know, the store, the internet, and she graduated with a degree in, you know, biz, business from U of A, University of Arizona. So she was definitely had that part down where I was extremely weak. And I was like, babe, babe, do you think you can help me sell these online? She's like, oh, let me do some research and you know, I'll let you know. And so she comes back and she's like, yep, I know what we're gonna do. She's like, we're gonna sell them on Etsy. I'm like Etsy, what is Etsy?

• 1:37:41Speaker 02

  How about eBay or something I've heard of? And she's like, no, trust me. She's like, women shop on Etsy all the time. It's like an artisan, whatever artisan, you know, website. And she's like, they will buy them for their men. And, and so we started them and the first ones, um, after that one that I already had. So I, I started buying dummy rounds online and then I would, you know, I'd start practicing cutting them with a Dremel tool. You know, just like crawl, walk, run, right? And that's what we used to say in the SEAL teams all the time. I was like, I just have to figure out. And I didn't know anything about manufacturing, cutting metal. I was just a dude in the garage. How do I make that cut? And so I, I cut like, I figured out how to get it down.

• 1:38:25Speaker 02

  And this was kind of cool. It would take me, it would take me about, I think 25 minutes to cut one when I started. And they looked like crap, but people still bought them. Um, but then I started getting real squared away with my manufacturing and I realized Jaco that the tip of my broom handle that I cut off with a Dremel tool fit perfectly over a 50 cal round. So now I could make a fixture, my first fixture and I cut, I cut the cut into the broom handle and then I take a Sharpie marker and I would actually draw the cut on there. So that, it, cause it was taking me seven minutes, I timed myself to actually like take a take measuring cloth, measure out all the, all the dots, then connect them. And then I would take my Dremel tool, put it in a vice and cut them.

• 1:39:09Speaker 02

  And so that was my first fixture. And then now, now we were, now we were cooking, right? And so they were, you know, they were still really rough. Like I would prime them, then I'd paint them. And then I was like, okay, if these team guys who, you know, get everything, you know, people think they're the coolest dudes in the world. They're willing to buy them. Anybody would buy them. I just have to figure out how to market it to somebody else. So I started thinking, okay, these are going to be big in the military units, firemen, cops, et cetera. And so I started buying stickers online and I started painting them and putting stickers on them and we would market them that way. And it was interesting because you know, when you start, when you start selling stuff, typically you want to start your price point high

• 1:39:50Speaker 02

  and then work down until you find somebody that'll buy it. And so I remember looking at what everybody else was doing. They were selling them, you know, like really generic, cheap ones for like, You know, 20 bucks. And I'm like, I want to see if I can start mine at like 28 and make more profit. And so I started at 28 crickets. Nobody bought them. Brought it down, waited two weeks, brought it down to 24.99. Couple of people bought them. Oh, cool. Got our first sale. And then, you know, let it, let it hang out there for a bit and then brought it down to where everybody else was boom. Floodgates open. People are buying these things nonstop and you know, we're in business. And so at that point, I just kept, you know, working it, working it, trying to improve, you know, our fighting position or the product.

• 1:40:32Speaker 02

  Found somebody that was an actual machinist that could cut them professionally. Found a professional powder coater that could put, instead of putting paint on them, actually like powder coat them and we just.

• 1:40:42Jocko Willink?

  I want to get one of the old school. Painted one of those. That's what I want. My boy, I've got like, I've got like probably a hundred. Bottle breachers from people give them to me and we have some that we give away.

• 1:40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:58Jocko Willink?

  And so I have, but I want, I want one that's spray painted with a gnarled, uh, cut that barely works. That's what I want.

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  I saw one last night. Yeah. My boy, uh, my boy, Mike. Um, he was the LPO at VBSS before he passed the job over to me. And, uh, he had, he broke out one of the old ones. I was like, damn, I was looking at the Dromel cut nicks and crappy cut. And I'm like, God, I can't believe it. But you know, honestly, and I am big on my faith. And I remember that point in my life and I was definitely afraid of failing my family. And you know, I was still seeking God in the things in my life. And I was praying, I was like, Lord, how do you want me to provide for my family? When I get out of the military and it was funny, man, when.

• 1:41:44Jocko Willink?

  He's like beer openers.

• 1:41:46Speaker 02

  Well, well, right. But here, here's the cool thing, man. You know, they, they are bottle openers and most people use them to open their beer. But you know, the cool thing is, is like even something like that, if you give God the glory, dude, you'd be surprised. Some of the doors he will open in your, in your life. So, you know, um, and it's just, it's, it's crazy, man. Because, um, when I told people, especially Navy guys, they were like, Eli, what are you going to do when you get out? And I'm like, hey. I'm selling boblopers. Jaco, I'm surprised somebody didn't send me to you, bro. They were like, uh, yeah, that's probably not going to work out, man. Let's get this guy to a psychological eval ASAP.

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  But it was cool because within six months, we were, my original goal wasn't to build like a multimillion dollar business. It was like, hey, I want to make some extra money for a date night or to save up for, you know, my next firearm or whatever. Just some supplemental income. And then as it started growing, I was like, dude, this could be something. And six months into it, we were doing $7,500 a month, which blew me away. I never thought we'd even get there. And then at that point, I made one of the better moves that I ever made in business. And I sold my chopper. I had a motorcycle that I used to drive over to your gym and do jujitsu with.

• 1:43:10Speaker 02

  But, um, and I sold the chopper and I bought a laser, I took the funds and I bought a laser engraver. And that is when things just went, because I was watching an episode of Shark Tank and, um, these, the sharks were tearing apart an entrepreneur, primarily Kevin O'Leary, who became one of my investors. And he's, he was ripping apart an entrepreneur because this guy, he had decent sales. He had a pretty cool, unique product, but he had no brand recognition on the product. So like he had the brand on the packaging, but as soon as it left.

• 1:43:45Jocko Willink?

  What was, what was the product?

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  It was like a green neon suit that you would wear at a football game or like a ski, you know, like skiing or something made you stand out. Right? And the guy, Kevin and Mark.

• 1:43:58Jocko Willink?

  There's a market for that? For a green neon suit, like a skin tight suit?

• 1:44:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:03Jocko Willink?

  Like spandex suit?

• 1:44:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. And so the guy had, he was doing 300K in sales and, you know, annually.

• 1:44:10Jocko Willink?

  I've never seen a human in a green neon suit.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  I'd never seen one either, but he, he had this, he had the sales, he had the product there and Kevin, they were looking at it and Kevin's like, you know, he's like, is the brand on, on this anywhere? And the guy's like, no. He's like, Kevin just starts ripping him up. He's like, this is the dumbest thing that, you know, you can do as an entrepreneur. He's like, what if, what if somebody's looking at it and outside the package and they want to know who made it, but they can't find your brand on there anywhere. They can't go Google it and look it up online. And so I was sitting on the couch with my wife Jen and we, because we had two small kids, I was in the Navy still and we were running Bottle Breacher. There wasn't a lot of free time, but we did allow ourselves, like that was our like, you know, one show that we'd watch together. And I was like, babe, we gotta figure out how to get Bottle Breacher on each and every one of

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  these units leaving the garage. And so I started doing some research, which led me to laser engraving. And so I had about $30,000 in the bank from like a reenlistment bonus. And I was like, I don't, we're getting out of the Navy. I don't want to risk, you know, our little nest egg on something unknown, right? And so I was like, I'm going to sell my bike. And San Diego's the best place in the world to have a motorcycle. I mean, just the best place. And, and so that was hard for me to do, but I later read Rich Dad Poor Dad with Robert Kiyosaki. And he talks about all the time, you know, um, and, and, you know, he talks about his book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, what, what, what the rich teach their kids that the poor don't. Basically,

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  the summary is, you know, wealthy people teach their kids to buy assets, not liabilities, right? Assets, something that makes you money, liability, something that costs you money. And I hadn't read the book at the time, but that was basically the move that I made. And, you know, by doing that, our sales went from $7,500, um, at the six month mark to a month and a half later, we were doing $22,000 a month out of that same one car garage, to the point where like, I couldn't keep up with it. I had to start like moon, like bringing guys in from the military that were like, you know, doing whatever job and they'd have, they'd work in the garage and help me out. And then, you know, um, I think, you know, a year after that point, we were doing $80,000 a month out of that one car garage. And that's when I pitched to Shark

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  Tank. And, uh,

• 1:46:24Jocko Willink?

  So you were still on active duty when you pitched to Shark Tank?

• 1:46:26Speaker 02

  I was. Yeah, I was, I was right at the tail end. I was right at the tail end. And there was an open casting call down here in like Miramasa. And I was sitting with one of my advisors in LA and he's like, Eli, you gotta get on that show. And so, found an open casting call, went down there. They were like, hey, first 500 people get to pitch to a casting member. And so I went, got in line at like 1:00 in the morning. I was like number like 125. And then, and then came back the next day, once I got my little wristband badge and, you know, knocked it out of the park. And then they were like, within a week, no, within, that was on a Saturday, Monday morning, they sent me an email. They said, hey, we loved your pitch. We, you have one week to make

• 1:47:09Speaker 02

  a video. And I, you know, made the video. They loved it. We kept moving on. And it was funny because they, when you get in that process, they assign you a couple producers and who are kind of coaching you through the process. And they were like, it was funny, me and Jen would have to hop on the phone with them every Friday at like 4:00 PM to have a, like a conference call with them. How's the pitch going? Where are you guys at in the process? And it was funny, they were always telling Jen, we would practice our pitch on the phone with these guys. And they were like, Jen, Eli's just not excited. You've got to get him excited. He sounds like he's not enjoying this. And I'm like, guys, I'm not a cheerleader. Like, when I, when I need to get excited, like all, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna rah rah rah siskumbah. Like, I'm gonna tell you, hey, this is what

• 1:47:53Speaker 02

  we're doing. These are what the sales are. This could be something. And, but you, you gotta keep in mind, it's a TV show. So they want you to like, you know, they want you to be all.

• 1:48:02Jocko Willink?

  They want that drama, bro.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  They want the drama.

• 1:48:04Jocko Willink?

  They want that drama.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. But anyway, we, we got, we got an opportunity to go on the show. And we, you know, it went really well. And got two sharks, Mark Cuban and Kevin O'Leary. And, you know, it just, it started blowing up. And that created another, another leadership challenge to, to work through.

• 1:48:25Jocko Willink?

  So then where, the, once it came out, how much longer did you have in the Navy? Once the show came out?

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  So I actually pitched on the show.

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  I feel weird telling the SEAL commander this, but I was on terminal leave when I pitched. That's legal dude. Is it? Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, well. At least as far as I know. I've been out of the Navy now since what? Since 2014, so maybe there's a statute of limitations, hopefully. But anyway, so yeah, I was on terminal leave, so I wasn't even going into work, but I went and pitched in LA and and then the show, um, the show actually aired the month after I got out of the Navy, my final, my final month in the Navy. So it was like perfect timing for us. And, uh, you know, we started, we started working, you know, we started working, you know. Did you move back to Arizona?

• 1:49:19Speaker 02

  We, yeah, as soon as I could, even, even on terminal leave, I moved my family back to Arizona, so. What'd you get? Did you get a building for production? Like what'd you do from that aspect? We did, we, we rented space. We rented a couple of different spaces and we just ran it out of there and it was interesting because when you go through that process, there's no guarantee that even if you go to LA and you shoot the show, there's no guarantee that your episode's even gonna air. So this goes right back to kind of like the, the situation I talked about in my second time taking those orders, coming back to Bud's. It was a big risk because at that point we had like $70,000 in the bank in our business account.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  And I remember knowing that, you know, if this show airs, we need a lot more inventory. We need more machinery. We need to hire some people, but if it doesn't air, we just wasted all of our money. Or we're gonna have to figure something out. And so we, again, we went big, we gambled, we spent every last cent we had. My wife, who, who ran the numbers, who's always run the numbers, she was like, hey, if this show doesn't air, we're not gonna make payroll. You know, so, um, thankfully it aired when it was supposed to air and you know, I think we did like $450,000 that night of the airing. And that was, it would have been way bigger than that, but the, we got so much traffic on the website.

• 1:50:41Speaker 02

  I was told it was like 13,000 hits a second because there was like 12, 12 million people watched the show and they were like the, the website crashed within seconds of it airing on the, on the east coast. And so thankfully, one of the things that I learned in the teams, guys like Jaco was one is none, two is one. Always have a backup. So we had a redundancy plan in place. We put up a banner on the website. Hey, go to Etsy. We still had our Etsy store. People were still able to buy there. And so we limped, limped through it and then we were all like, yes, this is awesome. You know, great exposure, great sales. And then I'm like, now we have to make this stuff, right? Cause we don't call, it's not like we're calling China. Like, you know, and so we were before Shark Tank.

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  We don't call China around here.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right, my man. So, um, we were making like 135 bottle breachers on a good day before Shark Tank. I think when we woke up the next day, we had to make like 60,000 bottle breachers and we had 20,000 emails to answer and like people are pissed off. Like this is the day and age of Amazon, man. Like we're this little mom and pop shop that was like, we're not making with drumsticks anymore, but I mean, we don't, we're not making them that fast. And so it created a real leadership challenge where, you know, that lesson of, hey, what we did yesterday, you can't say this is how we, we've always done it. Cause how we've always done it ain't going to work anymore. And we gotta, we gotta think outside the box. We gotta get creative. And thankfully, I mean, it took me longer than

• 1:52:11Speaker 02

  I, I would have liked to have figured, figured it out, but thankfully we finally figured it out, got things up on step and were able to handle national television airings and stuff like that.

• 1:52:22Jocko Willink?

  And so what year was that?

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  That was 2014.

• 1:52:26Jocko Willink?

  How long did it take you to get caught up with 60,000? Bacon of 135 a day?

• 1:52:31Speaker 02

  Three months. Took, took us three months and people were pissed, man. The worst part is if some people somehow were finding Mark and Kevin's, you know, emails are Shark Tank investors and they're like, I can't believe you did a deal with this company. These guys are idiots. You're stupid. And like me and like, at that point in my life. Like nothing was worse than getting an email from, you know, Mark Cuban, like WTF. You guys need to get this stuff straightened out, you know, and it was just like, I mean, that's the type of thing that would just ruin your night, you know? But, you know, going back to just like working for Chris Kyle, dude, hey, that don't, that don't cut it anymore, man. You're, you know, so I, I think it's been, I think it was a blessing and it's definitely prepared me for what I'm doing now.

• 1:53:16Jocko Willink?

  There's a, I watched, I watched the, they have a YouTube video that's like after the Shark Tank.

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  Beyond the tank.

• 1:53:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, beyond the tank. And it was pretty cool. Uh, O'Leary, you know, he was talking about you and talking about veterans. You could see he's a patriotic guy. He was getting like, he's getting choked up, talking about what you guys were doing and just thankful for your service. So I thought that was, to me, that was awesome to see because I don't, I don't watch that show. Echo is like a

• 1:53:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:53:42Jocko Willink?

  Big time watcher of Shark Tank.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:46Jocko Willink?

  Did you watch this like when it happened live? Oh, you, you did.

• 1:53:48Speaker 02

  It's my boy, dude.

• 1:53:49Jocko Willink?

  In the game, in the game, over there.

• 1:53:52Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 1:53:54Jocko Willink?

  Were you nervous before you walked out there?

• 1:53:56Speaker 02

  A little, a little bit, but I was more excited. I, I, I'm not gonna lie to you. I was a little bit nervous because you know, it's like, you know, that you, you're about to either be a hero or a zero on national television. And obviously too, like all those entrepreneurs, like, like they have more, you know, business acumen in their finger than I did in my entire body, but I knew we had something. And I knew that if we could just get on the show, obviously it was a controversial product because it was a bullet, you know, bottle opener. So I was worried about that, but it was funny because, um, one of the things that we'd rehearse was we were gonna get each shark their favorite beer. And then, um, you know, hand out the personalized bottle breachers that I'd made for each one of them.

• 1:54:39Speaker 02

  And then let them, you know, open their beer with it and we were all gonna cheers and whatever. Well, um, last minute, the prop director guy, he's like, hey, we're not gonna use their favorite beers or whatever. We're gonna use these beers that we have backstage. And I'm like, hey, your call, your show, whatever you guys wanna do. And so. I don't know if somebody was playing a joke on me or what dude, but I went and I, you know, took my bottle, my bottle breacher, I breachered up and this thing starts foaming all over the place. And I look at it and I'm like, you know, this is like, they're opening their beers. I'm opening, you know, my beer and I'm supposed to cheer up, you know, do the cheers thing. And I was actually like, whatever dude. I just, you know, you know, take a big swig of it.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  And it was funny because we start our pitch and Jen like leans over to me and she whispers to me. She's like, there's beer, there's foam in your mustache. And I was like, whatever dude. Just Charlie Mike, right? Just keep going dude. So we, we did it, you know, and it was a, it was a blessing. And I think it's led to, you know, so much, so much other stuff, but um, you know, it definitely isn't always roses. And one of the hardest things about it was working with my spouse, you know, I mean, you know, I hadn't even learned to barely live with my spouse at that point because I'd been gone a lot and um, you know, we were both kind of like type As, like butting heads all the time. And it definitely took some

• 1:56:05Speaker 02

  learning to what we call stay in your swim lane, you know, and like, you do what you do, I do what I do. And I'm, and try not to sleep on the couch. Spent a lot of time sleeping on the couch, but you know, I probably deserved it.

• 1:56:19Jocko Willink?

  So you're, you're talking about the fact that, you know, like, uh, with your faith with, you know, you, you basically a couple of times in your life at critical times have been praying and saying, hey, look, if I'm supposed to go to BUDS, open the door. If not, close it, you know? I need a way to help my family. If I leave the Navy, open a door. I'm knocking. Let me in. Let me, let me, let me know what to do.

• 1:56:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:45Jocko Willink?

  Serious guidance for you.

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was. And it was interesting because after, after the Shark Tank, And I, I know there's a spectrum here, um, and I don't try not to compare myself to other people, but I knew just by knowing myself, I knew I wasn't in a good spot mentally, like, you know, done five deployments and, uh, I'd got, I'd gotten out and I felt this like anger and this rage inside me. And, um, yeah, I tried to keep it under wraps because like I, I didn't think it was cool. I didn't want, you know, people to know that like I was struggling with certain things. And, um, it, you know, and then all the stress of being a dad to young kids and, and then running

• 1:57:31Speaker 02

  this, running this business with your spouse who you've just barely learned to, you know, work with. And so I felt like, you know, I was on the struggle bus. I felt like I was failing as a, as a husband in many ways, and even as a dad. And I was laser focused on this business because I was like, took the same mentality from the SEAL teams. Like, hey, just go as hard as you can, outflank your enemy, you know, stand up this team. And, you know, sometimes when you're laser focused on something, you start dropping other important priorities. And when it really resonated with me, like the spot that I was in, um, probably, probably two years after Shark Tank, I think it was 2016, a buddy of mine here in San Diego, um,

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  who was in that VBSS cell with me, just a good dude. I'm pretty sure he's still active. He was an E-Dog and then got his commission. Um, and he called me up and usually when he called me, it was just to talk shit to me. We called it banter therapy. We just, you know, tell each other how worthless they were and we'd laugh about it. And then like, it felt like you just did like, uh, you know, an hour long intensive therapy session or something. And so I was like, oh, here we go. You know, his initials are KP. KP's calling. We're gonna, we're gonna get after each other and then, you know, you know, just see, catch up, see how he's doing. And I could tell immediately, he wasn't calling to, you know, banter therapy, give me a hard time. And he's like, hey, man, I got bad news. And I'm like, what's up, dude?

• 1:59:02Speaker 02

  And he's like, hey, man, Chuck is dead. And I'm like, what? And he's like, yeah, Chuck is dead. He uh, he got killed. Um, fighting with the Peshmerga, you know, fighting ISIS. I think it was yesterday or something. You know, like, I don't remember what else he said. Um, but we got, we got off the phone and I was just in shock because Chuck Keating was one of my new guys at SEAL Team Three and Delta Platoon and like, like, I was like, it's kind of his C daddy, you know, like, looked after him. Um, just loved the kid, such a, such a solid dude. And went on to become just a phenomenal SEAL. Um, but it was, I noticed how I was in trouble because

• 1:59:45Speaker 02

  I remember walking out of Bottle Breacher and I didn't, like, I, I felt like I was getting ready to just break down. And I didn't want my staff to see me, you know, break down. I didn't think that would be professional. And uh, I remember feeling it, like, I remember feeling the emotion come up from my stomach into my throat. And like, alright, cool, let's, let's just get this out. And it just like stopped. And it wouldn't, like, I couldn't, I couldn't mourn, I couldn't, I couldn't shed a tear, I couldn't cry. And uh, this happened, like, I started walking around the, the uh, strip, the uh, the like mall that Bottle Breacher's buildings are located in. Happened like four or five times and I was like, oh damn dude, that's kind of, that's kind of weird. And uh,

• 2:00:30Speaker 02

  I've kind of, it was, it was, it was so weird that I started thinking about it. And that was the first time that had ever happened. And there had probably been, I don't know, to that point, probably fifteen, at least fifteen guys that I knew that had been killed, you know, in war. And uh, he was, out of all of them, none of them were closer to me than him. And I, it was kind of, I was perplexed at why I couldn't mourn. Mourn him. And so I started thinking about it and there's a uh, There's a, there's a verse in Proverbs 423, it says, "Above all else guard your heart, for from it flow the springs of life." And I realized, I realized that not only had I not guarded my heart, but I had built massive

• 2:01:15Speaker 02

  walls around my heart to where I couldn't feel anything anymore. I couldn't even feel, I couldn't even mourn like one of my best friends that just got killed fighting ISIS. And I knew I was in trouble. And, uh, and the other thing I realized was that that wasn't an isolated incident. Like it was affecting the, the, the springs of life that as a father and a husband that were supposed, are supposed to be flowing out of us so that we can love those around us, especially our spouses, our kids. They, they were broke, man. That, those walls that I'd built around my heart so that I couldn't be heard anymore. Like it was affecting, it was keeping some of the arrows of life out, but it was definitely affecting that love that was supposed to be flowing out.

• 2:02:00Speaker 02

  And I just knew I was in trouble and thankfully a buddy of mine named Rick, who loves your show by the way, um, he invited me to this, this men's retreat. And it was like a Christian men's retreat and I was like, oh God, that sounds awful. Um, but you know, he kept after me for a couple of years and it's called, uh, it was called Ransom Heart, it's called, you know, um, now it's called Wild at Heart. The guy that wrote the book Wild at Heart is a guy named John Eldridge and, uh, he writes some phenomenal books, but finally I said, you know what, man? I want to be a better man. I want to be a better husband, a better dad and, and all of that. So I'm going to go with you. And so I went in, uh, I think it was 2017 and the event changed my life, man.

• 2:02:44Speaker 02

  And, uh, I think the biggest question, biggest questions most of us ask theologically are, who am I? Why am I here? Why is the world so messed up? What can I do about it? And, uh, you know, I definitely got some answers to those questions and it was cool, man. It wasn't like, there was no religion, you know, there was no churchianity. You would think going to an event like that, you'd be surrounded by a bunch of Ned Flanders types, but it was just a bunch of regular dudes. Um, who all came with the same questions that I had, and I think, and I think many of them were in the same spot that I was, they hadn't taken care of their heart. They hadn't guarded their heart.

• 2:03:26Speaker 02

  And, um, that in the scripture, it also, um, I think it's first Peter five, five eight says, be alert and of sober mind for your enemy, the devil prowls the earth like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. And I have seen a lot of men devour. I mean, we got 22 vets every day killing themselves and that's just the states that report it. And that's just one, that's just one area, um, of, of devouring going on. And, you know, it's like, I've always, and I know that not everybody believes the same things that I believe, I, I totally get that and I respect that. But I've always believed that if like, if you, if you get something good,

• 2:04:11Speaker 02

  and you don't share it with other people, if you have a life altering experience and you don't point others to it, that's pretty messed up and you're not being a team guy at that point. And so I like, I want to share that with people because I, I realize there's a lot of dads out there and a lot of husbands out there and a lot of, you know, vets out there and first responders out there that have a lot of questions and they're dealing with a lot of stuff. And like me, many of you have tried to like stuff it down like a beach ball under the water. And you can hold that beach ball down under the water for a couple of sec, you know, a couple of seconds, maybe even a minute, if you're strong, like echo over here, but sooner or later, man, that thing's coming up. And if you don't take care of it, it's going to explode and usually on the people that

• 2:04:55Speaker 02

  you love the most.

• 2:04:58Jocko Willink?

  Was there, was there, uh, like concrete actions that you took when you got home from the retreat?

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, there were. The first thing I did was I apologized to my wife. The very first thing because I realized just and this goes back to extreme ownership, man. I realized how many, just how many ways I had failed her, you know, and how she needed me. She needed to, she needed me to fight for her and off the time, I was so proud Jaco and so screwed up in so many ways that half the time I couldn't even apologize to her if I, if I screwed up, man. And I was broken and you know, I needed, I needed fixing. And one of the first things that you, you need in that situation is to realize, hey, man, I'm broken and it's okay to get help.

• 2:05:49Speaker 02

  It's okay, you know, to seek it out. That, and that, that's not how team guys are trained to thought. We're taught to BTF, Charlie Mike, figure it out, keep moving forward, you know, and, and we're not, we're not, we try and stay away from medical. We try and stay from, stay away from any of the touchy feely emotional stuff because we got stuff to do and that stuff's typically not help, helpful. But I can tell you after going to that, going through that ministry and I've been many times now over the last several years, but my marriage, I never thought my marriage would be

• 2:06:29Speaker 02

  great. I actually have a great marriage now, man. And so much of it was because I, I was equipped to not go back into my own story and get some healing, but also get some tools on how to move forward.

• 2:06:44Speaker 02

  And just understand that the bigger perspective of this story that we live in, man. And you know, it's like, one of the things they teach there is that you were given a masculine heart for a reason because you were born into a world at war. And I think a lot of the stuff that we see in society has spiritual undertones and foundations to it. And if you don't, like if nobody ever teaches you that stuff, man, it, it's, it's kind of like getting shot at from, and you have no idea where you're getting shot at from. There's a lot. I think there's a parallel there, but the first thing I did was apologize to my wife. And the second, one of the second things that, uh, there's Scripture and forgive me, I don't remember exactly which one it is, but the scripture is I stand at the door and I knock.

• 2:07:28Speaker 02

  And whoever hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him and he with me. And that's what I needed, man. I just, I just prayed and I gave it up and I said, Lord, I'm broken. I'm hurting on the inside and I'm inviting you in to come rip all this stuff out of my life and my heart. That I don't need, that's dragging me down and that's not helpful to my family, to those that even trusted me to love and take care of. And I need, I need your help and it kind of goes from trying to do it on your own to being like, hey, Lord, come in here and help, help me with that. And I say that respectfully, man, because again, I know that a lot of people don't see things the way I do or feel this, feel the same way.

• 2:08:13Speaker 02

  But again, I'm not trying, I'm just trying to help other people because I know there's a lot of dudes out there. Asking the same questions that I, that I was asking and they want relief and they want to be well. And they don't know how to, they don't know how to do it.

• 2:08:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, there's a, there's like a route to humility that you're talking about and there's a bunch of different routes to humility and. I was actually thinking about that earlier today, you know, like the, one of the, one of the founding tenants of Christianity is, hey, I'm going to put. God above myself. Well, that's, that's, that's, that's humility to put, you know, I, I talk about humility oftentimes from a leadership perspective. You put the team above yourself. You put someone else's plan above your own plan. That's, that's a form of humility and extreme ownership is, you, you can't be, you can't take ownership without being humble enough to say, oh.

• 2:09:09Jocko Willink?

  This, this, this problem was my fault. So I think, you know, the, the, the route that you take to get to a point where you can say, okay. I'm going to be humble. I'm going to look at my life and say, hey, hey, wife of 10 years. I'm sorry that I haven't been as good as I can.

• 2:09:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:09:28Jocko Willink?

  That what, what it takes to get you there is. You can you can take a bunch of different paths to get there, but humbling yourself, whether it's before God, whether it's before your team, whether it's before your wife and saying, "Hey, I know I can do better." That's a path that is going to help anybody. And and I think how you get there, there's a bunch of different ways. And the result is gonna is gonna bring you to an area where you are gonna find improvement.

• 2:09:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, no, agreed, and I definitely needed to be humbled, you know, and all the guys that are a part of that, you know, that ministry, John, Morgan, Bart, man, thank you guys so much for everything you've done, because I know it's not just me, I know that they've helped thousands of dudes through it. And if you guys want to go check it out, just go look up, you know, Wild at Heart. I think it's wildatheart.com or whatever, but man, wow. Just a life-changing experience for me. And it really, I went from wanting to build the biggest, baddest veteran-owned company in the, you know, in the United States to, you know, wanting to focus on my family more.

• 2:10:38Speaker 02

  And and also just coming back to, okay, God, you know, you've blessed, you've blessed me with so much. How do you want me to spend the rest of my life? Like, where do you, where do you want me to be? What do you want me to, you know, be doing? And now, now here I am, man, you know, doing something that I never, ever thought I'd be a part of. But I think that's what happens when often you turn it over and be like, "Whatever you want me to do, just open the door, and if you don't want me to do it, please shut the door." You know, but I definitely want to spend, spend the rest of my life trying to help, you know, help people and and guide them towards, you know, concrete stuff that actually helped me.

• 2:11:22Jocko Willink?

  And through that idea of

• 2:11:25Jocko Willink?

  serving, here you are now running for Congress in Arizona.

• 2:11:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:30Jocko Willink?

  What?

• 2:11:32Jocko Willink?

  I mean, that's just a, uh, like a, like a, like a masochistic move, right? To go and just open up your life, give away your time, give away your privacy, give away, uh, any semblance of civility from other human beings.

• 2:11:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:11:51Jocko Willink?

  And, and here you are.

• 2:11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:53Jocko Willink?

  You, you're going for it.

• 2:11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, I am. And, you know, I think we're off, we're, we're off to a good start. But I went into this knowing that there was a good chance that, um, you know, the, the outcome that many people, including myself, are, are striving towards will not, there's a, there's a decent chance that that outcome will not become a reality. But at the end of the day, I focus on what I can control. I focus on, hey, focus on your posture, Eli. Don't focus on the outcome. Continue to try and be a man of honor and integrity and, and, and more importantly, be a guy that's willing to say, okay, I, I may not have all the experience in the world.

• 2:12:40Speaker 02

  I may not even be the best candidate, but this country's in massive trouble. It's in massive trouble and I'm willing to go serve again. And if y'all don't want to send me, I'm cool with that. If I'm not, if not, if I'm not a good enough candidate, I'm cool with that. What I'm not cool with is sitting on my couch complaining about it and yelling at my TV. And I'm not going to be okay. I like to, I don't know if you do this, Jaco, but I like to think about sometimes, you know, from a legacy building perspective, like, I like to think about my funeral. Like, who's going to show up? Who's not going to show up? What's my, what are people going to say about me when, when I'm gone? Are they even going to be talk, are they even going to, are they even going to talk about me?

• 2:13:22Speaker 02

  Or, or, or bring up my name and, you know, I'm, I'm hoping that at the end of my life, people show up to my funeral and be like, you know what? Eli did some, you know, Eli was a good dude and he loved, he loved people. And he wasn't willing, or he was, he was willing to sacrifice and serve something bigger than himself. And if, if, if that's what people say about me when I'm dead and gone and six feet under, then to me, I've lived a purpose-driven life, something that I can be proud of. And to me, that's, that's what this is all about. It's like you and I swore an oath. To protect and defend this country from foreign and domestic threats. And right now, I don't, I don't know how you see it.

• 2:14:06Speaker 02

  I, I believe we have some very dangerous foreign threats out there. But I think the biggest threats in this country right now are within. And the fact that we can't, we can't unite. And we can't, we, we have a lot of forces working against us who I don't believe actually want to see a free and prosperous people that still have the power where our government is of, for, and by the people. But there's a dichotomy to that. We have, we're so free and so prosperous here that many of us have become complacent. We've checked out. We don't think that we have to participate.

• 2:14:47Speaker 02

  And you can't have both. You can't have a, a government and a country that's of, for, and by the people. And have a complacent people that have checked out and don't participate. And I think that's one of the reasons we're in the spot that we're in because people don't want to deal with the negativity that goes along with politics. They don't want to deal with the nastiness. I totally get it. But that's one of the reasons we're in such a bad spot because we just think that we can elect these, these individuals who look good and they sound good. They put on the suit with the little flag on the, on the collar. Tell us what we want to hear and then we leave it up to them. And then when they let us down, you know, we're like, oh, well, I guess there's nothing we can do.

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  No, there is something we can do. We can get in, we can get involved. And we, and we can fight for it. And that's what it's going to take, honestly.

• 2:15:39Jocko Willink?

  Was there any issues that was there like a straw that broke the camel's back? Where you said, I, I, I, or I gotta go, I gotta do this.

• 2:15:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was, and it was this last election in, in 2020. Uh, for so, for so many different reasons. It was, it was part of the election. What I, what I saw happen in the election, but then it was also watching people that I thought were actually eyes wide open, willing to fight for us, do this number. They look left, they look right. Oh, I guess nobody else is saying anything. I'm just going to get back in line and, you know, you know, do, do my thing and make sure that I don't put myself out there. And jeopardize my future political career. And so that was, that was the big one for me

• 2:16:32Speaker 02

  because I, I believe that there was massive fraud in this last election for a bunch of different, for a bunch of different reasons. At the end of the day, if we have a government that's of, by and for the people, and yet our elections aren't tight, and we're not electing, we're no longer electing our officials, we're in massive, massive, massive trouble. And the clock then starts ticking on how long, in my opinion, we actually last. And so I've said this before, I'll say it again, I would rather we not, I would rather my guy lose, or whoever I'm voting for lose, than, you know, have to even question, hey, how

• 2:17:16Speaker 02

  legit, what, how legit was that? Because that didn't look right over there. And that didn't look right. And what about this over here? Oh, we're not allowed to talk about this, or we'll get kicked off of social media too? Okay. Yeah, that doesn't smell right. How about, how about if we, how about if we have, if we, we the people want to actually audit and check the results of our election? What's, what does that look like? Is it, is it, is it welcomed? Or is it, or do lawsuits start flying?

• 2:17:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's been some interesting stuff going on that are similar to what you're talking about. So, you know, Joe Rogan, who's, do I have to explain who Joe Rogan is?

• 2:18:00Speaker 02

  No, you don't.

• 2:18:01Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so Joe, he, you know, had these, had these doctors on to talk about COVID. And these, these are doctors that have a non-mainstream media view about COVID. And he just released a statement yesterday, because now we have some of these old rock and roll people telling Spotify, if you don't pull Joe Rogan off, then we don't want our music off. And, and that's a legitimate thing.

• 2:18:32Jocko Willink?

  So it's like, okay, so Rogan came out, he released like a nine minute podcast last night. I happened to be driving and when it came out, so I listened to it. And so this is what's interesting. Uh, I forget the examples that he gave, but one of them was six months ago or a year ago or whatever. If you said cloth masks don't do anything, you would be literally banned. And there's documented people that were banned from social media for saying that. And now it's, oh, it turns out it's actually true. And, and for example, CNN has been widely reporting that. There's a whole list of things like that.

• 2:19:14Jocko Willink?

  Oh, here's, here's the, another example is if you were to say six months ago or a year ago, once you're vaccinated, you can't catch COVID and you can't spread COVID. And if you would have said that, there's people that were banned from social media for saying those things. And now you look up and those things are actually true. They're factually true. That's what's happening. And you get this, um, with the, with the election results that you're talking about in 2020.

• 2:19:48Jocko Willink?

  There's, when people said, hey, I'm not sure about this election. Right. Some, some people weren't necessarily saying, I mean, there was politicians, there was a very few politicians that were saying, hey, not so sure about this. Maybe we should hold off, maybe we should check the results. There was personalities, social media personalities that were saying that. And they, they got shut, completely shut down. Right. Not for saying, hey, I think we should overthrow the government, but for saying, hey, don't you think we should confirm this? Because I, I, I agree with you that to me, the worst outcome for a, for an American election is people look at it and go, I don't believe it. Right.

• 2:20:33Jocko Willink?

  Even if it's, even if it's, never mind half the popul-, I don't want 10% of the population to think, hey, I don't believe this is true. I think that that, I think that the, the election results were wrong. I think there was foul play, all those things. What I want to do is if 10% of the people say, or 1% of the people say, hey, we think that there was foul play in the elections. I want to say, okay, well, let's, let's get everything out on the table. You know, a good analogy would be if you're watching, if you're playing a football game. Yeah. And, you know, a team, we think a team got a touchdown. And, and the other team says, yeah, that wasn't a touchdown.

• 2:21:16Jocko Willink?

  You don't say, well, shut up, it was, because now we all leave and we don't really think they, they won, and we argue about it, we fight about it, and it's a bad thing. Instead, what do we do? What do we do nowadays when there's that problem? We solve the problem by going, oh, you don't think it was a touchdown? Cool, we're gonna go to the videotape. Right. We're gonna lay everything out on the table. And then everyone can see, oh, yeah, crossed the plane, it was a touchdown, or didn't cross the plane, that's it. We can solve the argument so that we actually get the truth out there. And, and it seems like with this election, instead of saying, hey, here's what happened

• 2:21:57Jocko Willink?

  in these situations, here's these anomalies that took place, here's why they took place, here's the impact that they have, actually had, here's some characters that did some things that they shouldn't have done, here's some things that, some accusations were made that were totally false. Right. But, but to just say, oh, if you don't think that that election was perfect. Right. Then, you, you, you, you should be silenced. And, and the reason I bring up the, the, the masks and the vaccines is because, right now, it seems like there are some people that are gathering evidence about the election that might not necessarily.

• 2:22:42Jocko Willink?

  Turn the election over, but they might at least say, hey, this is something that happened. This, no one, no one agrees that this should happen. No one agrees that someone should be stuffing ballot boxes, right? No one, no one thinks you should be stuffing ballot boxes.

• 2:22:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:22:56Jocko Willink?

  So if ballot boxes are getting stuffed, what can we do to prevent that? And to me, I, I can't imagine a, a, an American that's aligned with America. Like with just the, the broad idea of America where we have freedom of speech, we have the right to bear arms. The, the, we have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I can't imagine someone saying, ah, you know, I actually think stuffing ballot boxes, okay? I actually think, think these, these, changing these election laws is, I think that's fine. As long as you know, it's done for the right party. That, that to me doesn't make sense.

• 2:23:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:23:35Jocko Willink?

  So I, I think when you start talking about the thing that kind of pushed you over the edge. I think there's a lot of people that felt that way.

• 2:23:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. And honestly, there's a long, there's a long list of things that I've been watching for years, but.

• 2:23:53Speaker 02

  You know, I, like for instance, you, you look at the, look at the southern border, right? We're getting ready right now to possibly, you know, go send troops over to Ukraine on the eastern, their eastern border. Um, and yet we don't even take care of our own border, right? We have fentanyl and drugs coming over that southern border. We have human trafficking coming over that southern border. Um, you know, we have, we're, we're, we're basically in, you know, supporting the cartels by doing that. We have MS-13 gang members coming over that southern border. And you have an administration right now that doesn't even want to address that problem at all. They're actually taking people in the dead of night sometimes and flying them around the country.

• 2:24:37Speaker 02

  Right? You had a situation where border patrol agents were being fired because they wouldn't take a vaccination, yet. People that were coming here illegally weren't forced to take a vaccination and then flown all over the country in the dead of night so that you and I wouldn't know about it, wouldn't see about it, etc. And those are facts as well. And so that's just one, that's just one more issue. How about our debt situation? We've got like close to $30 trillion in debt, right? Right now, you have Nancy Pelosi and others pushing spending bills that are gonna continue to rack up that debt, and we don't even have the money to pay for it.

• 2:25:18Speaker 02

  We're just printing money and basically we're devaluing the US dollar and we're causing inflation to skyrocket. And you have Democrats like the guy I'm running against, a guy named Tom O'Halloran, who will try and convince you that inflation, you know, it's not that bad, or it's, you know, I've even heard in the media, they'll say, well, Jen Psaki said, well, you know, it's an upper-class problem, you know? And it's like, people that are putting gasoline in their cars, people that are buying, you know, hamburger meat, or, you know, any of the consumer products that we buy, those prices are going up and up and up, and it affects everybody.

• 2:26:02Speaker 02

  And this idea that we can just print our way out of this mess that we've gotten ourselves in because we don't have any fiscal responsibility, and we have politicians that want to support a spending bill so that they can go back to their constituents and say, oh, well, hey, look, I just got you guys, you know, great broadband, you know, Wi-Fi, or whatever it is, but knowing deep down that there were, you know, a thousand other things in that bill that wasn't good for the country, but now they can come back and hold this trophy up and be like, look what I did for you guys. You know, all across the board, how about energy? You know, we went from actually having so much energy that we were exporting

• 2:26:43Speaker 02

  energy. We shut down the Keystone XL pipeline, and now, and we greenlit the Russian pipeline at the same time, right? So, how's that good for America?

• 2:26:56Speaker 02

  We're talking about defunding police officers. Are you, are you, what? What, what, what, what universe are we living in, right? Where that's a good idea. You know, and I like Jaco, what you've been talking about, hey, how about we get, get some of these, you know, police officers some better training, right? I, I think that's great. But defunding them ain't gonna help anything. It's gonna, it's gonna hurt people and it's gonna hurt people, lower class people and minorities more than anybody else. So we've got, this country has gone so, in my opinion, it's gone so far backwards in so many different, in so many different ways that I look around. And one of my favorite sayings of all time is evil triumphs when good men do nothing. And so again, it's just like, I'll tell you what, if there was,

• 2:27:40Speaker 02

  you know, if, if you were running in my district, I wouldn't be running in this district, bro. I wouldn't, and matter of fact, I'm gonna put you on the spot right now. I, cause I know I'm not the only one that has asked you.

• 2:27:53Speaker 02

  Gavin Newsom? There aren't too many guys that could take him out. You could take him out, dude. And I know you're building your empire, but I wanna put that on your brain, bro, because you could take him out. I know you could. Yeah. Um, alright, think about like, think about the platform that you have. Think about your, your reputation in the SEAL teams. Think about what, what you've done as an entrepreneur. And at, at the same time, you've managed to keep your family intact, bro. That's, that's big time. I don't know another, I don't know another human being that has that all under one roof, man. And so I know you got stuff to do, I know you're working on stuff, but you could take him out.

• 2:28:39Speaker 02

  You could.

• 2:28:43Speaker 02

  Evil triumphs when good men do nothing, man. And I, and I hate to even, I hate to even put you on the spot, cause nobody's done, nobody deserves to like, enjoy the American dream more than you have, just with everything you've done. But this is an inflection point in this country. And that's why, Jaco, that's why you see seven Navy SEALs running right now. Cause it, it wasn't like, hey, it wasn't like we got on a conference call, like, hey, you know, it'd be cute? As if we all ran for Congress, no, no, everybody, they all realized it. I know you, I know you feel it as well. But you know, how badass would that be to have Jaco, you know, the governor of California?

• 2:29:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and look, I appreciate you, um, your input on that one.

• 2:29:29Jocko Willink?

  I really don't want to go into politics. That being said, I, you know, what's interesting is, you know, I talked to all my friends that live in Texas and they live in Utah and they live in Montana and they live in Arizona and you know, there's just been a rash of people leaving California. Uh, businesses leaving California. My friends, a bunch of my friends have left California and I love California. California is freaking awesome.

• 2:29:59Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:30:00Jocko Willink?

  California has the Pacific Ocean, it has the mountains, it has the desert, it has the redwood trees, it has Yosemite. It is a magnificent place. It is absolutely magnificent. And ye- ye- yeah, it is in a very precarious situation right now. That I don't think it can, I don't think it, I don't think it can continue to go this way.

• 2:30:27Jocko Willink?

  I mean, you, you've seen the news, you've seen the, the, the homeless situations. You see the, the trains that were getting attacked and, you know, robbed from entire freight trains. Um, I don't know what's gonna happen, man. I don't know what's gonna happen in California. I, I love California. California is an iconic place. And there's, and the other thing you gotta remember about California is California is not San Francisco and Los Angeles. That's not California.

• 2:31:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:31:03Jocko Willink?

  That's a small part of California. California is the Imperial Valley, right? California is the agriculture that is the vast majority of this state. And hardworking Americans that are out there busting their ass to make things work. And at the same time, paying an incredible amount of taxes and having the regulatory environment that's, that's hostile to business, legitimately hostile.

• 2:31:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:31:31Jocko Willink?

  So with all these things, as they continue to add up. I can't predict the future. I certainly hope I don't have to get into politics. I, I, I really just don't know if I have the stomach for it. Um, I don't want to do it, man. And, and it's like just the biggest cop out that I can throw back at you at this point. And, and you and the rest of the guys that are out there trying to do it for the right reasons is awesome. Um, man, I don't, I don't want to get into that business. I don't want to get into that world. And, you know, when people ask me about politics, I always tell them that, you know, I'm not, I don't want to do it unless

• 2:32:13Jocko Willink?

  things get really bad. And people hit me up all the time. Is it bad enough yet? Is it bad enough yet? Is it bad enough yet? I don't know where that line is for me.

• 2:32:24Speaker 02

  I feel a dumb and dumber moment coming on right now where I just want to say, so you're saying there's a chance. There's a chance. Okay. One in a million. Awesome.

• 2:32:35Jocko Willink?

  Uh, don't like it.

• 2:32:37Speaker 02

  No, I, I hear you. I hear you. It's an, it's nasty, man. It's a nasty world and it's, God, dude. And I, I'm barely even scratching the surface of it. But even now, like, I, I don't really like the world. I don't like the self-promotion of going around campaigning and telling people why you're so great and why they should vote for you. I don't like that part of it. I don't like the nastiness of, you know, people lying, lying about you and trying to smear you and, you know, every single way possible. And if they can't come up with anything good, they'll just make it up. I don't like that part of it. I don't like exposing my family, you know, to this stuff as well. I just want my kids to grow up, kind of like a normal life. And, but I'll tell you what, man,

• 2:33:19Speaker 02

  it's like, if, if enough of us don't do it, we're done. That's the way I see it, man. And I wish I was more optimistic, but I watch, like, just like on a, you know, a dope sheet as a sniper, man. I watch trajectories. I watch where this country started and where we're at now, man. And it's, I mean, COVID, if, if that doesn't wake people up, you know, to, uh, you know, the fact that often, most often governments aren't typically interested in letting the power rest with the people.

• 2:33:51Speaker 02

  I don't know what's gonna wake people up, but it's it's getting bad and we need to we need some sled dogs to put their and maybe a couple leaders to put their their shoulder to the wheel. But just saying. Am I the only one that's ever called him out? I don't think so, no.

• 2:34:12Jocko Willink?

  I will say when I speak, maybe not necessarily on the podcast, because it's a small group of two or maybe three. Whenever I go and talk to businesses, companies, organizations, I I'm getting called out almost 100% of the time.

• 2:34:25Speaker 02

  Good.

• 2:34:26Jocko Willink?

  To get in the game, to get in that game, you know, and and right now, I mean, part of my cop out, part of my rationalization is, you know, I'm trying to build businesses in America, American made business, we're bringing manufacturing, we're putting people back to work, we've got hundreds of employees, American employees that are that are making things happen, we're we're bringing back manufacturing. That's that that's.

• 2:34:53Speaker 02

  It is a part, it's it is a part of the fight, it's a very important part of the fight, and honestly, that's why I'm an America first candidate, not because I not because I hate, you know, any any other country around the world, but I love this country and for so long, so many of our leaders and politicians have put America on the back burner and they've sold out so many, you know, of our workers, our constituents, and it's just like, hey, you know, I'm all for I'm all for, you know, free trade, but it needs to be fair and we need to make sure that we're not shooting ourself in the foot and shooting, you know, you know, displacing our workforce and taking manufacturing away from many of these folks and families that, you know, count on it. And that was one of the coolest things about Bottle Breacher is that I couldn't have even

• 2:35:38Speaker 02

  done it this long, I couldn't have even run that business this long if I didn't find a way to incorporate mission into it. Okay, how do we, how how is this bigger than just profits and balance sheets and okay, so we can support some cool veteran nonprofits, we can hire some vets, we can make our products in the USA, okay, that's enough of a mission to keep me, you know, engaged, you know, for a certain amount of time, but, you know, and I I love that you're doing that as well, man. It's it seems like it's getting hard to keep up with all the stuff you're doing.

• 2:36:11Jocko Willink?

  Well, you you took on a bigger challenge, man. You took on a bigger challenge.

• 2:36:16Jocko Willink?

  So. How can everyone help out? How can we help get you elected? What do we gotta do?

• 2:36:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I appreciate it, man. I just appreciate the opportunity to come and rap with you guys.

• 2:36:29Speaker 02

  If people want to go follow me, they can look up Eli, Eli Crane underscore CEO on social media. If you want to go to my website, it's Eli for Arizona dot com. You know, I hate to even ask, but unfortunately in this world, so much of this boils down to name ID. And for a first time guy in a political race, a US Congress race, so much of it is going to come down to, do we have the ammo and the resources to run all the TV ads, all the digital ads, all the mailer ads, etc. So if you guys can give us a small donation, we would really appreciate it. I'm asking people for prayer as well, you know, just for guidance, direction and wisdom.

• 2:37:11Speaker 02

  And the other thing I'm asking for is that people share, you know, share the website, share what we're doing here. So that other people that don't know about it can pitch in and help too. So those are the things that you guys can do.

• 2:37:25Jocko Willink?

  Sounds like a plan, man.

• 2:37:28Jocko Willink?

  Probably a good place to wrap it up. Echo, what you got? You got any questions? Oh, we got football questions?

• 2:37:34Speaker 01

  I don't want to keep us here too much. Actually, no, I just actually want to say, so when I, when I, when we saw the Shark Tank episode. You know how like, because you guys watched that even before you were on. You know, the kind where someone comes out with a product or service and you immediately, and it depends on who you are, obviously. And you immediately know like, oh, this guy's going to get a deal. That's what I felt about yours. Cause bro, he, but you don't watch Shark Tank.

• 2:37:58Jocko Willink?

  I've watched it. I mean, I, I watched your episodes over the past like a few days when I knew you were coming out here, but no, I, I'm not a regular watcher.

• 2:38:05Speaker 01

  Bro, I'm like, like a bunch of other people. The moment I saw that thing as a, I was like.

• 2:38:10Jocko Willink?

  Did you know anything about, did you know Eli before that?

• 2:38:12Speaker 01

  No, no, I didn't. This was back in the days, like in 2014. Yeah.

• 2:38:18Speaker 01

  But bro, once I saw that thing, I was like, bro, that's the coolest shit I ever seen.

• 2:38:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:22Jocko Willink?

  You're that guy, bro. You're that guy that he was talking about.

• 2:38:25Speaker 02

  No, dude, it was, I mean, it was so, it was so cool and such a blessing, man. And I mean, it's still, I tell people all the time, you know, guys don't really grow up. We just get bigger toys. Can I tell, can I tell the Saldo Franco story? Alright, so it was so funny, man. You know Jaco is who Jaco is, man, and you know, you got, got people that want to be like Jaco, right? And it just so happened that a lot of people, you know, in, in Task Unit 2 wanted to be like Jaco. So they made us do, the older guys made the younger guys do skits. And that's a pretty dicey situation, man, because-

• 2:39:01Jocko Willink?

  By the way, I know, I know where Sal lives right now.

• 2:39:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:03Jocko Willink?

  I know where he's at, so I might have to go get him.

• 2:39:06Speaker 02

  Sal, he's coming, brother. No, uh, he wasn't even making fun of you, really. It was just, he was making fun of people that wanted to be like you. And so it was funny. So they, they make you do these skits, and if you piss them off, you know, you deal with, you deal with that side of it. But if you make them, if you can make them laugh while making fun of them, that's, that's the, the golden ticket, right? So Sal was always the funniest dude, so Sal came up with a lot, a lot of our skits. And so, um, I remember he did this skit, and it was like, he was playing you, and, uh, or no, he was playing, I think he was playing Stoner. And he had this, he had this note, like this note, this binder, and he put like, uh, what was it? WWJD, what would Jaco do?

• 2:39:51Speaker 02

  And he like walks out playing Stoner, talking like Stoner. He's like, you know, all the acronyms, BTF, Charlie Mike, you know, and the guys are just rolling because he's, you know, he's like, you know, making fun of all these guys who want to be like Jaco, but are failing miserably. And it was just, it was just so funny, dude. And so, you know, that, that became, you know, a joke, you know, a running joke after you left, like, God, dude, all these guys walking around, what would Jaco do? Trying to be like, bro, you're not Jaco, just be yourself, man, okay? Just be yourself.

• 2:40:20Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yeah.

• 2:40:22Speaker 02

  Big tough frog, man, you know, two, over 200 pounds, all, all this stuff, dude.

• 2:40:27Speaker 01

  Hey, what's Charlie Mike?

• 2:40:29Jocko Willink?

  Continue mission.

• 2:40:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:40:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it, and it, and it's an unofficial thing, meaning, uh, our status is this time is that we are going to Charlie Mike. I mean, it's an official thing, like, we are actually continuing the mission, but that turns into just like a, hey, just Charlie Mike, bro.

• 2:40:44Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:40:45Jocko Willink?

  You just gotta, just keep going.

• 2:40:46Speaker 02

  BTF, not official.

• 2:40:48Jocko Willink?

  BTF is unofficial.

• 2:40:50Speaker 02

  Unofficial, yeah.

• 2:40:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. BTF is unofficial, similar meaning, except for BTF has, you know, greater capabilities, because it can be used for a lot more things than just-

• 2:40:59Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:40:59Jocko Willink?

  -continue mission.

• 2:41:00Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 2:41:01Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, um, that's all good. That's all good.

• 2:41:04Speaker 02

  Right on.

• 2:41:05Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Eli? Yep. Any closing thoughts?

• 2:41:09Speaker 02

  Thank you, man. Thank you for, you know, what you're doing and thank you for allowing a guy like me, you know, to come on this show. Like I've listened to this show for, you know, years and I understand why you, you, you try and keep politics out of it. Cause you know, I mean, it's such a divisive thing, but I just appreciate you taking a risk and bring it, allowing a guy like me to come on and, you know, talk about a little, even my faith, man. That's something that is, can be really divisive to people and I definitely don't want it to be divisive to people and I definitely don't want to disrespect what you've built, but I'm grateful that you allowed me to come on and talk about it because at the end, bro, I do not want to be, I never wanted to be in Congress. I don't like wearing suits. I don't want to live in Washington DC, but

• 2:41:52Speaker 02

  I honestly believe if we don't get, if we don't get some men and women with courage and character that never wanted this job in the first place in key positions, I'm very concerned about what the future for my kids is going to look like. So thank you, man, for using what you've built to help guys like me.

• 2:42:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, again, thank, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for what you did. Thank you for jobbing the teams, man. That, that, that counts, bro. Like getting after it, getting out there, doing that job, holding the line in the teams. Thank you for doing that. Um, and for what you did with, what you did and what you continue to do with Bottle Breacher. Like that's building the American economy. That's made in America. That's freaking outstanding. That's providing jobs for people. That's, that's awesome. And, and what you're doing right now, going into politics. Look, I don't like politics. I, I know you don't like politics and you know, I'm, I'm not like intentionally staring away from politics on this podcast. It's just not the

• 2:42:53Jocko Willink?

  thing that I talk about normally. I mean, and I've had

• 2:42:56Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:42:56Jocko Willink?

  other political people on here. I'll continue to have them. I've had people from both sides. I've had Democrats. I've had Republicans on here. People that have run for Democratic positions, people that have run for Republican positions.

• 2:43:12Jocko Willink?

  People and you know, talking about your faith like that's that's a why I mean I've that's wide open. You know, you can't cover books about the military and not have faith in intertwined in those things from people that have have been to the edge and back.

• 2:43:29Jocko Willink?

  But for me, you know, what I like, what I want and what I hope is that when people listen to what we talk about here, they actually listen to it, actually listen to what people are saying.

• 2:43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:40Jocko Willink?

  And instead of trying to figure out where I don't like you or where I don't agree with you, I try and figure out where I agree with you, where you have a common goal that that I have and you want to see America move in the same direction that I want to see it. And maybe we have some different ideas about how to get there.

• 2:43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:59Jocko Willink?

  That's okay. That's okay. You know, in a platoon, you ask a you ask, you ask every single guy in a platoon to come up with a plan for a mission, they're all going to come up with a different way. And they're all probably going to think their way is the best way. But guess what? We're all trying to do the same thing. And that's what we need to do in this country is look at where we're trying to go. Get on board, support each other, and let's move in that direction. Thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate it.

• 2:44:28Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:44:30Jocko Willink?

  And Eli is on his way back to Arizona. And before he left, Echo Charles, man,

• 2:44:36Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:44:36Jocko Willink?

  You normally aren't quite as hyped to get a picture with someone as you were with Eli.

• 2:44:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:44:44Jocko Willink?

  Cause as far as you're concerned,

• 2:44:48Jocko Willink?

  Shark Tank is, he's, he's, he's a movie star for you.

• 2:44:53Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:44:53Jocko Willink?

  Or something.

• 2:44:54Speaker 01

  You know.

• 2:44:55Jocko Willink?

  You didn't know him at all when you watched him on it. You would just happen to watch that live, like whenever it came out in 2014, you were watching it.

• 2:45:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I've seen, I do watch Shark Tank. I've seen every single episode.

• 2:45:06Jocko Willink?

  Really?

• 2:45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 2:45:08Jocko Willink?

  How many seasons have there been?

• 2:45:09Speaker 01

  I don't know. One million. I don't know.

• 2:45:11Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:45:11Speaker 01

  But it's like that you did, like, just like how Eli is like where I don't really watch TV, but there is one show that me and my wife.

• 2:45:18Jocko Willink?

  That's literally the one show that you like?

• 2:45:20Speaker 01

  There's two, well, Y5 always does not come on anymore. So, yeah.

• 2:45:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we're down to one show.

• 2:45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, there's some other ones that are like, cool. I'll catch it if it's like the tail end of the night and then whatever. But the one that we do watch together, every episode Shark Tank. And that was one of them. No, I didn't know him. But he was like, you know, I'm a veteran, you know, former Navy SEAL and stuff. So I figure, okay, we must know, you know, kind of the same people and just in general. But the thing that really was like, I was down for the cause is when he showed that thing, man. The freaking fifty caliber bottle opener. Bro, come on, bro. I mean, that, you know, was it the cure for cancer? No, but it was the coolest thing I've ever seen.

• 2:46:05Jocko Willink?

  Ever? In terms of bottle openers?

• 2:46:08Speaker 01

  Debatably. Yeah. It was really cool. And when, you know, after a while, you can tell like, okay, the, the product alone is such a good idea that he, of course, he's gonna get a deal. It was like that thought. Like, yeah, I thought, oh, yeah, he's gonna get a deal. And he got a double.

• 2:46:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he got a double deal.

• 2:46:22Speaker 01

  Two sharks, that's a big deal.

• 2:46:23Jocko Willink?

  Actually, three sharks bid, because one other shark said, I'll do a deal right now. And then Eli said, hey, just out of respect for the other sharks.

• 2:46:33Speaker 01

  Yep, okay.

• 2:46:34Jocko Willink?

  I want to make sure that, just, does anyone else have anything to offer? And then the other shark stepped in and made an offer. And then the, the other shark.

• 2:46:46Jocko Willink?

  I don't know all the sharks.

• 2:46:48Speaker 01

  So that's another little detail. And that's fun. That's interesting, because I do remember him saying that. But I totally forgot that he was the one who said that, which, okay, so.

• 2:46:57Jocko Willink?

  What was good was how he framed it. I remember that part. I, he framed it as, not as like, and actually, they made fun of him a little bit, because he said, he said, he said, out of respect for the other sharks, I want to make sure that none of you would like to make an offer as well. When what he was really saying was, hey, listen, does anybody else want to throw in more of that? One of the female sharks said, oh, out of respect for us. Like, she kind of called him on it. But, but he did it right. He did it right. And, and so, good job, Eli.

• 2:47:29Speaker 01

  Usually how they say it is kind of like, well, it wouldn't be smart for me as a businessman to, you know, just like taking off for the first offer. They, they'll frame it something like that. Like, hey, out of, out of like my own or our business interest. But when he said, out of respect for the other, that's undeniable right there. Because this is what the sharks will do sometimes. Cuban will do this. He'll be like, um.

• 2:47:50Jocko Willink?

  Do they have their own little methodologies that they use? What's Cuban do?

• 2:47:54Speaker 01

  He'll go, if he really wants it, he'll bully the other sharks. So he'll be like this. He'll go, hey, I'm offering you this, this, this, but you gotta take it right now. Like you start, and I don't want to hear them. If you start taking their, and he'll, he'll totally do it too. He'll be like, well, you know, I, I should think I should hear an offer from, and if the one of the other sharks starts, starts talking like, hey, I'll offer you this, Cuban will be like, I'm out. So they miss it. And now he has kind of a little bit of a reputation for doing that kind of stuff sometimes. So now people get really, oh, and they jump at it, you know? But if you frame it like, hey, out of respect for the other sharks, he would have to paint himself as a bad guy now for him to really follow through. That was good. And he seems so respectable.

• 2:48:34Jocko Willink?

  Who? Eli? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he did good. It was cool to have him on here, man, but definitely cool. And even though he's trying to get me to run for frigging governor of California and stuff.

• 2:48:48Speaker 01

  I'd have to do a bunch of campaign videos.

• 2:48:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, you'd have to be a campaign video guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you, you might even have to work. I really hope it doesn't come to that, man, but, but I give it up for these guys that are out there doing this. Cause I, I, look, I can, you know, sometimes people say, oh, I, I wouldn't like to do that, but you know, they're lying. You know, they're like, I, I, I, I don't want to have to run for this position, but I'm feeling of the need to, my country's calling me and you know that they're not telling the truth. Like you can def, Eli's like, hey, I don't want to do this. You can tell Eli like literally does not want to do this.

• 2:49:22Speaker 01

  No choice.

• 2:49:23Jocko Willink?

  But at the same time, you can see the passion and he knows that we need help and he's right. He's right, man. He's right. Good on him. He came at me with the direct approach, which is normally not your recommended approach. But it kind of made me think, man, uh, I'm weak over here.

• 2:49:43Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and even if you don't, and this is all in a big picture kind of way. This is all just the natural course of things where like, if things get too extreme and everyone started recognizing, wait a second, this is too extreme. It's gonna start tipping the other way. And usually when it tips the other way, just like a swing, right? It's gonna, it's gonna tip maybe a little bit more, you know? And hopefully it'll settle, hopefully at some point.

• 2:50:08Jocko Willink?

  I am, I, I'm, keep waiting for California to start swinging back. And it is, you are starting to see indications, right? There was a female mayor up in San Francisco that she just came out and was like, alright, we're, we're crushing crime. We're funding the police. And she was, this is in San Francisco. This is like a liberal mayor of San Francisco. She started swinging it back the other way.

• 2:50:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:31Jocko Willink?

  So that's the, one of the early indications of what's going down. I mean, you see the politicians out here just mandate, they did a mandate, right now it's, what day is it today? I don't know, but like, they got, they put another mask mandate on, indoor mask mandate. I mean, meanwhile, other parts of the country are wide open for months.

• 2:50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, even the Denver guy, same deal.

• 2:50:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and a wide open, England is, England's just saying, we're done, we're done with COVID.

• 2:51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:01Jocko Willink?

  Hey, more people are gonna get it, we know that. Uh, I think Sweden or some, somewhere else, there's, there's places that are just going wide open. And Florida's been wide open. And Texas, man, I was in Texas for a couple of years ago. I mean, it was a couple, maybe it was like a year and a half ago, I did a jujitsu seminar. Or like a meet and greet at jujitsu. There was 200 people there, rolling jujitsu. Meanwhile, California was in lockdown, by the way. So, that, that's, okay, so people are making decisions. But here's the, here's, you know, I just saw a picture of the Newsom, who he was just talking about, at a football game with a bunch of other politicians, none of them wearing masks as they have mandated for everyone else.

• 2:51:47Jocko Willink?

  See, you can't get away with that forever.

• 2:51:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:51:51Jocko Willink?

  You can't. It just doesn't work.

• 2:51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:53Jocko Willink?

  And that's why the pendulum is going to start to swing back. That's what's going to happen. I hope I don't have to ride that pendulum to the other side.

• 2:52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:01Jocko Willink?

  Because I really don't want to. I want to surf. I want to do jujitsu. I want to make the podcast. I want to build the companies that we're building. So, and, and if we can do that properly, maybe we don't have to get into this whole freaking political thing.

• 2:52:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, if you're in a bus, we'll say, or van. Say, I'm wearing a bus.

• 2:52:22Jocko Willink?

  You know what I feel? You know the break in case of war break glass?

• 2:52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:25Jocko Willink?

  I feel like that's my political career. And, and, and I joke about it, but like, I think it's gotta be.

• 2:52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:31Jocko Willink?

  I'm talking chaos. I'm talking, I'm talking, I'm talking total mayhem and chaos. And I don't really think I would be a no, I don't, I think it's, I think I would become a political leader in an environment when things are no longer the way they were. You know what I'm saying? I think I'm, I think I'm more stepping up to a, a, a really hostile situation. That's where I'd, that's where I'd roll in hot.

• 2:52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and a lot of times too, we have to remind ourselves that, or remind ourselves of the question of, is it really hostile? Or is it just hostile like on the internet?

• 2:53:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:09Speaker 01

  Or on the TV or whatever. And I'm not just saying it is or isn't. I'm just saying that's always a good reminder.

• 2:53:14Jocko Willink?

  And I will tell you that there are elements that are hostile in real life. There's definitely elements that are hostile. And the whole thing with, with Joe Rogan was just crazy right now, you know? And, and the, the points that he was making in this little nine minute episode that he did. I mean, people got banned from Twitter for saying masks don't work.

• 2:53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53:37Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, there was people out there wearing three and four masks. When I was traveling, I'd go to the airport, there'd be people with two masks on and a face shield. Right? And okay, cool. Hey, cool. Go, go do that. But.

• 2:53:50Jocko Willink?

  Some people were saying, hey, this, how does this work? And you know, the people like, dude, it's a piece of cloth over my face. How's that stopping anything? And that was just a kind of a common sense approach. Okay, well, you're banned from, you're banned from talking. Even if you're like, it doesn't seem like this does a lot, or you're banned from talking. So now, now you talk about those election things. And it's like, hey, well, it doesn't, it seems like these states that were like swing states. There was the voting stop. And in the only four like swing states that mattered, the voting stopped counting at midnight. Does that seem weird?

• 2:54:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:54:22Jocko Willink?

  And oh, you're banned. You're not allowed to say that.

• 2:54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:54:25Jocko Willink?

  What the right answer should be, hey, that's a good question. Let's do some analytics and figure out what happened.

• 2:54:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:54:31Jocko Willink?

  So, and there's, I, I, I do know that there's some other information that's coming out right now. That is definitely.

• 2:54:41Jocko Willink?

  Let me rephrase that. There's information coming out about the 2020 election. That indicates that maybe things should be looked at a little bit more. So.

• 2:54:52Jocko Willink?

  And again, if it's wrong, and it turns out that the election was squared away, then cool. You go, okay, cool. Now you all can stop worrying about it. All you freaking crazy, right wing fringe Trump maniacs can calm down now. Cause look, here's the facts. But instead, what they're saying is like, hey, shut up. You're a conspiracy theorist. What does it do? What, what do you do? When you suppress that information, what does it do to those people? It embold, it doesn't embolden them. It makes them even more suspicious. And that's not a good move.

• 2:55:25Jocko Willink?

  When you won't show the NFL team, the video, they just go, gee, they don't even want to show us the video. That's a bad move. Air these things out. Man, what's the worst case scenario? What's the worst case scenario? Hey, we got, we got some, we gotta fix our elections a little bit. That's, that seems legitimate to me. I want to have everybody's vote count. Okay, cool. Don't you? Or do you not? Cause if you do not, then we have a, we have a serious problem with our alignment between us two as human beings. I'm American. I think we vote for our people. And that's who gets put into office. Don't you think that? You know, and if you don't think that, we have a serious problem.

• 2:56:11Jocko Willink?

  And I don't, I think most Americans, the vast, vast, vast majority are like, yeah, of yeah. Whoever gets voted, that's who should be in office. Cool. We agree on that. We can agree on that. Should the voting be done a method where it's kinda standardized? And makes sense and it's hard to cheat? Wouldn't that make sense? Yeah, that would make sense. Okay, cool.

• 2:56:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that instant replay analogy was pretty much spot on there. Cause it, it does like, you know, in football as the example, the if, you know, usually it's yeah, it's like a touchdown or an out of bounds scenario or whatever, right? Where the line matters.

• 2:56:51Jocko Willink?

  In a critical moment.

• 2:56:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually, actually technically it's never, it doesn't have to be in a critical moment. It can be the first play of the game.

• 2:56:57Jocko Willink?

  The problem is though, you only get so many of those calls. You can only go to the videotape a certain number of times and you might not want to waste it. If it's like, you know, if you've first and two.

• 2:57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you, I think that's challenging the ref. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Challenging the ref's call. That's, that's true. So either way, if the reason that exists is because we do, no matter what team you're, you're cheering for, San Francisco 49ers or the Denver Broncos, whoever. Um, whoever you're cheering for, you do want to know the truth.

• 2:57:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:57:31Speaker 01

  Like no one wants, like, if someone didn't make a touchdown, it's pretty hard pressed to be like, ah, nah, we should just give them the touchdown even though he didn't make the touchdown. Like that doesn't make much sense.

• 2:57:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it especially doesn't make, even if you're like, well, you know, my team kinda won, so I just want to let it slide.

• 2:57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:48Jocko Willink?

  The problem with that attitude, which is understandable, you know, I'm a raging freaking Denver Broncos fan and it looked like a touchdown, we think it was a touchdown, we just need to let it slide this time. Here's the problem. You've just now set in place a precedent where we're not gonna review things. That's what we're, okay. So now we're just going with whatever that ref saw that was at a weird angle and he called it a touchdown. So we're good and we're just gonna go with that from now on. That's not the precedent you want to set. You want to set a precedent of like, okay, we have a way of assessing whether this was actually a touchdown or not. And that's what we're gonna utilize. So you might say, you know what? I really want the Broncos to win and it kinda looked like a touchdown. But the right thing to do for future reference and for future precedents is to say,

• 2:58:32Jocko Willink?

  let's go to the videotape and confirm. But the politicians that said that. And a lot of it was tied to the fact that the January sixth

• 2:58:42Jocko Willink?

  event happened. And that made people just go, I don't want to, I don't want to catch any flak for what's going on. This is getting crazy. Uh, let's just move forward and, and call it what it is. Looks like they won. Don't go to the videotape. When the videotape will make people say, yeah, you know what? The, the team won. Or, or they say, oh, the team didn't win. And now we got some serious issues that we need to attend to. It's very strange times, man. It's a very strange time. What's weird? Here's what's weird about this is me saying what I just said. It seems like pretty normal. It seems pretty logical. Like, well, shouldn't you go to the videotape? No one's going to listen to that and say, no.

• 2:59:28Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna say, yeah, if you, if that's the rule and you have the data, then why wouldn't you check it? But you, you transfer that exact analogy analogy to the 2020 election? And all of a sudden whoever says, hey, maybe we should review the information and the data is a savage, you know, uh, insurrectionist, whatever. Well, it's like, no, I'm not an insurrectionist at all. What I want to do is review the data. So if someone says that, they get even worse accusations. So it's very strange times.

• 3:00:05Speaker 01

  So do you, and you mentioned something just a second ago about how in the NFL, you only get a few chances to challenge the call.

• 3:00:12Jocko Willink?

  I think.

• 3:00:15Speaker 01

  And it's been a while really since I've, you know, so that rule could be changed. I don't know. But nonetheless, that was a rule at some point. And that's for a reason because if there's no limit to them, let me challenge every single call and jam up this whole system. This whole game, this whole game is 12 hours long now because I'm challenging every call that goes against me, right? So isn't that part of the game too?

• 3:00:38Jocko Willink?

  Where, but what's interesting about like the election was people like, well, we don't want to investigate everything. We just want to make sure that these key areas that had voting anomalies that are documented. Maybe we should check those out. Shut up. Hey, no.

• 3:00:52Speaker 01

  Right. So it's almost like a tactic where you could, if you're on the other side, right? You could be like, hey, you're just trying to stop. You're just, what do you call it? You can't let it go. What were they saying? They were saying like, um, You can't just accept the truth. It's like that, you know, you want to paint them as a, as a unlimited, uh, you know, challenging the call guy, you know?

• 3:01:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, what makes this really scary, what makes it all that really scary is because I haven't dove enough into the details. But what makes it really scary is that what just, what Joe Rogan just talked about, which is, hey, people were getting banned from social media for saying masks didn't work. And now it's the reality. People were getting banned from social media for saying the vaccine, you could still spread COVID even if you had a vaccine. A- and that is actually true. And by the way, people were getting banned for saying you could still catch COVID. Guess what? That's true. So all these things, we didn't have an open conversation about them because one side got completely shut down, which is crazy. So there you go.

• 3:01:53Speaker 01

  Can't have an open conversation.

• 3:01:56Jocko Willink?

  That's disturbing when you can't have an open conversation and, and when, what you have to watch out for is people that, whatever methodology they want to use, raise their voice and yell over you. So whether that mean, I'm not, so could that be, if you and I are in, in a discussion, and you start going, I don't care about that. And you start raising your voice and yelling and talking over me? Okay, but that's just you and me. I realize you're just mad, whatever, but I didn't get my point across. But you don't care because you leave.

• 3:02:31Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:02:32Jocko Willink?

  That, that behavior in social media, that behavior in the news, that behavior in mainstream media where, oh, Echo's saying something I don't like, so I'm gonna attack him? Raise my voice, but through whatever means that might mean, you know, retweeting you with, hey, it's calling you this or calling you that, or doing a personal attack, all that behavior. Now we're not discussing the topic. We're discussing that I hate you.

• 3:03:03Speaker 01

  You ever watch the movie The Time Machine? You ever heard of it? I know you didn't watch it, but. Okay, so The Time Machine is, um, okay, Guy Pearce, who is also the star of Memento, by the way. Anyway, Guy Pearce, boom, he makes Time Machine, he goes way in the future. And, you know, he finds that humans have split, um, evolutionarily speaking. So they were actually split in three, but. So one, so he goes with the villagers or whatever, and like, he says something. Wait a second, this could have been Stargate. Nonetheless, they say, he says something and everyone.

• 3:03:40Jocko Willink?

  Can I take a Time Machine back to before this story?

• 3:03:44Speaker 01

  Everyone like turns their back or starts walking away, or erases what he wrote in this time or something like that. And so, like, somebody explains to him, hey, like, you can't speak of that. You just can't speak of it.

• 3:03:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:56Speaker 01

  And I think later on, they find out, like, you know, what's behind it and stuff like that.

• 3:03:59Jocko Willink?

  And that's the thing, what's some of these guys, listen to what they say. And isn't ironic that Neil Young's song, Keep On Rocking in the Free World? And he's like, don't talk anymore, right? Like, that's crazy, right? That's crazy.

• 3:04:12Speaker 01

  Yep, that is.

• 3:04:13Jocko Willink?

  That's why we have the underground, by the way.

• 3:04:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:04:15Jocko Willink?

  We have the underground, jocko underground dot com. Why do we have that? Why do we charge eight dollars and eighteen cents a month? To, to have our own little platform? That this is why. Because what we're talking about right now, this may get rolled, this may get bounced. This may get edited. Right? And we're not actually making a statement one way or the other. I'm just explaining things that have happened.

• 3:04:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:04:39Jocko Willink?

  I, I, I haven't dug through the details enough. I don't spend my time digging through the details of current events. I don't do that. That's not, but you know why? Because I'm not that interested. And because other people that commit their time to it, I'm gonna let them, let these other people go do that. I'm gonna be reading about World War II, Vietnam, Korea, the Peloponnesian Wars, that's what I'm doing over on my side. I'm gonna be training jiu-jitsu, hopefully going surfing, playing guitar. Those are the things that I'm doing. I'm not parsing through the news stories that came out in the last forty-eight hours to try and get you and catch you on something. But when you let a little time go by, and we talked about this on one of the underground

• 3:05:21Jocko Willink?

  part, when you, you, so I let time go by and the truth starts to rise to the surface. Now, it took six to eight months for the truth to rise to the surface on some of these stories. But again, you know how much sleep I lost over these stories while they were happening? Not very much. I wasn't freaking, I was like, ah, these masks don't work. Or I wasn't like, you better put on a mask. I didn't lose sleep over that. Cause I was like, hey, it doesn't seem like it's gonna work that good to me. Oh, you, you know, I'm gonna carry on with my life. That's what I'm doing. So we don't know when we might get suppressed. So that's why we made jockounderground.com. If you wanna, you can help us out. If anything happens to any of these platforms that you listen to this on, we will still have that platform.

• 3:06:03Jocko Willink?

  We do an extra podcast on it about once a week. And we talk about other things that maybe don't fit quite on Jocko Podcast, but we wanna get them out there to y'all. So you can check that out. If you can't afford it, look, if you can't afford it, it's okay. We still got you. You can email, what is it? [email protected]. We appreciate your support on that. You know, also, we were talking about American-made companies. You know, that's kind of my, that's, that's what, that's the way I am trying to help America right now by building these companies with the Origin Team, originusa.com. If you need to get boots, if you need to get jeans, if you need to get a gi, which you probably do, then get, go to originusa.com.

• 3:06:46Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, you probably, you may have seen, we have a hunting line coming out. So we, we're gonna be making clothes for hunting. That's what we're doing. We've got all kinds of good clothes coming out as well. Workout clothes, by the way, Echo Charles, so we're gonna cover you down on that as well. Originusa.com. We also have jockofuel.com. I'm barely, barely.

• 3:07:11Jocko Willink?

  On my game today, why? I didn't sleep last night, probably got two hours, maybe two and a half. And I've, this is my second Jaco Discipline Go. Which is, which is a drink. It's a drink. Could you call it an energy drink? You could, because it does have energy in it. But when you hear energy drink, you're thinking, oh, oh, you're going to ingest some poison. That's going to get you jittery and hyper for about an hour and a half. And then you're going to crash and be sick and be diabetic. We're not in that category. No sugar in here, sweetened with monk fruit, 95 milligrams of caffeine. Get you on that nice little. You're good to go.

• 3:07:47Speaker 01

  Good to go.

• 3:07:47Jocko Willink?

  You're good to go. People, people go, if you don't sleep, you don't, it's like, no, less than eight hours of sleep is like being a point zero eight DUI. You're, you're mentally impaired. Look, I'm not saying it's good for you, but it's not as bad as, you know, look, should you get sleep? Don't get me wrong, get sleep. Sleep as much as you can. Sleep as much as you want.

• 3:08:12Jocko Willink?

  Okay, don't get crazy, but, but what I'm saying is you're, if you sleep a little bit less and you need a little sump hitter, get yourself some Jaco Fuel, JacoFuel.com.

• 3:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, I will also contend that even if you got a lot of sleep, drink, because it is good for you.

• 3:08:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:27Speaker 01

  It's healthy for you. Look, hey, look, some people, hey, some people drink coffee, right? In the morning, good, drink coffee, black coffee, whatever you, however you drink coffee. If you get eight hours of sleep, what should you not drink? Coffee?

• 3:08:40Jocko Willink?

  Not necessarily, because coffee is kind of good for you.

• 3:08:42Speaker 01

  Drink some coffee, man. You like that one? You want that, as you would say hitter, whatever. The reason, same deal. And it's healthy for you.

• 3:08:50Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:08:51Speaker 01

  So boom, you'll be better off either way. Also nootropics in there.

• 3:08:54Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:08:54Speaker 01

  Let's not ignore that. That's good for your brain. That is nutrients.

• 3:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:08:59Speaker 01

  For your brain.

• 3:08:59Jocko Willink?

  That's probably why you don't need to overload the caffeine with the go.

• 3:09:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:09:04Jocko Willink?

  You don't need to, because it's got the nootropics in there, get you up there on step, rocking and rolling.

• 3:09:08Speaker 01

  Brad, there was a commercial and I, I, I remember the drink, I forget what it was called. Because I used to get it, it's juice, straight up juice, like juice, juice.

• 3:09:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, like apple juice.

• 3:09:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, but it was like a mix, I think, I forget what it was. But nonetheless, their thing was like feed your brain. Now, as an adult, I'm looking at like, wait, feed your bread. Isn't there like 50 grams of sugar in that thing right there?

• 3:09:30Jocko Willink?

  Savages.

• 3:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:09:32Jocko Willink?

  Yep, that's jockofuel.com. Don't forget about Jocko's store. We're making cool t-shirts.

• 3:09:38Speaker 01

  It's true. Yeah, you want to represent because hey, this path is not always easy.

• 3:09:43Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep. Good to go.

• 3:09:45Speaker 01

  But it is worth it.

• 3:09:46Jocko Willink?

  It is worth it. It's 100% worth it.

• 3:09:47Speaker 01

  And if you want to represent, boom, yep, you get your shirts, your hats.

• 3:09:50Jocko Willink?

  The subscription shirts continue to dazzle the senses.

• 3:09:56Speaker 01

  Dazzle the senses. You got some good ones coming out. Yep, the shirt locker. You get a cool new one every month. Um, I, we got a, we got some cool ones coming out.

• 3:10:08Jocko Willink?

  Look at that.

• 3:10:08Speaker 01

  They're always cool coming out.

• 3:10:10Jocko Willink?

  Anticipation is just overflowing over there. Uh, subscribe, subscribe to this podcast, YouTube, the YouTube channel. Psychological Warfare, Flipside Canvas Dakota Meyer.

• 3:10:22Jocko Willink?

  You gotta get cool stuff to hang on your wall occasionally.

• 3:10:25Speaker 01

  Yes. Unless, unless you want a bare wall.

• 3:10:27Jocko Willink?

  Which is only applicable in a podcast, in the Jocko Podcast Studio.

• 3:10:31Speaker 01

  But even though it's like conspicuously bare.

• 3:10:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. My, my house, my home would be bare, were it not for my wife. Cause she's hung some stuff on the walls, but that's not appropriate. You should hang stuff on your walls.

• 3:10:47Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:10:47Jocko Willink?

  Flipsidecanvas.com, Dakota Meyer, making awesome stuff. I've written a bunch of books. We got Ashelam Front. Yeah. If you want, if you like what we're talking about here, get some of the books. Ashelamfront.com, Leadership Consultancy, ExtremeOwnership.com is our online training academy for leadership. You can check that out.

• 3:11:09Jocko Willink?

  Also, if you want to help service members, retired service members, active duty service members, Gold Star families, the families of service members. Check out Mark Lee's mom. She's got an awesome organization. Go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org if you want to donate or get involved. You can also check out HeroesAndHorses.com. We got Micah Fink up there in the, in the woods, in the mountains of Montana, helping out vets. And if you want more of us, you can find us on social and that's cool. We'll, we'll, we'll be there, but we don't want you in the algorithm. Keep out of the algorithm.

• 3:11:46Jocko Willink?

  Echoes at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks once again to Eli Crane for coming on. Appreciate your service in the past and in the present. EliForArizona.com. Let's go help Eli win. And to the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines out there protecting our flag around the world. Thank you.

• 3:12:15Jocko Willink?

  Same goes to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all first responders. Thank you for protecting us here at home and to everyone else out there.

• 3:12:31Jocko Willink?

  Remember that you do get to write the script of your life, but you have to write around the things that don't go the way you want them to.

• 3:12:42Jocko Willink?

  But don't let that stop you.

• 3:12:45Jocko Willink?

  Instead, take ownership and counter-attack those things that aren't going the way you want them to by going out every day and getting after it. And until next time, Zeko and Jaco. Out.