483: Grayisms. Thoughts on Leadership That Apply Right Now. From Al Gray.

>Join Jocko Underground< https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe The Potomac Institute for Policy Studies produced a document called "Grayisms: And other Thoughts on Leadership from General Al Gray". Published by the Potomac Institute Press. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 483 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. During the night of May 14th, 1967, three Marines who were en route to a listening post northeast of the perimeter became confused in the darkness and unknowingly entered an area heavily mined with M2 and M16 mines. One of the Marines inadvertently detonated a mine which killed him and seriously wounded his comrades. Upon learning of the accident, Major Gray immediately proceeded to the area and realizing that the casualties required immediate medical attention, unhesitatingly entered the mined area to assist them. Disregarding his own safety, Major Gray, accompanied by another Marine, calmly and

• 0:43Jocko Willink?

  skillfully probed a cleared path 40 meters through the unmarked minefield to the side of the wounded men. Directing his companion to guide stretcher bearers along the cleared route, Major Gray moved one of the casualties away from a sensitized mine and began administering first aid to the injured Marines. When stretcher bearers arrived, he directed the safe evacuation of the casualties through the minefield. Subsequently, he maneuvered through the dangerous area to the side of the mortally wounded Marine and left the hazardous area only after he was assured that the man was dead. His timely and heroic actions in the face of great personal danger inspired all those

• 1:24Jocko Willink?

  who served with him and were instrumental in saving the lives of two Marines. By his inspiring courage, bold initiative, and selfless devotion to duty, Major Gray upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval Service. And that right there is a quote from the Silver Star Citation of Major Alfred Gray, who eventually became the legendary General Al Gray, Commandant of the Marine Corps from July 7th, 1987 until June 30th, 1991.

• 2:05Jocko Willink?

  He always stood out because he's the only, or one of the reasons that he stood out. He's the only commandant to have his official Marine Corps commandant picture taken in his camouflage uniform. So when you look at the long line of commandants of the Marine Corps, they're all in their dress uniforms, except for General Gray, who's just in his cammies, reminding all Marines that they are riflemen and warriors and they're meant for war and not for peace. So General Gray, he enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1950, he was commissioned in 1952. He served in Korea with the First Marine Division. He served in Vietnam as well. And as I mentioned, he was awarded the Silver Star there. He commanded First Battalion,

• 2:46Jocko Willink?

  Second Marine Regiment. He made full Colonel in 1972. He made Brigadier General in 1976. He made Major General in 1980. He commanded the Second Marine Division. He was promoted to Lieutenant General in 1984. And he finally promoted to four-star and Commandant of the Marine Corps, like I said, in 1987, until he retired in 1991 after 41 years of service. And while he was the Commandant, he was, he drove maneuver warfare and brain power

• 3:21Jocko Willink?

  as the crucial weapon of war. He oversaw the creation of FM FM1 Warfighting, which was, we covered on this podcast, it's just an outstanding field manual. We covered on Podcast 35. So that was like almost 10 years ago. We covered FM FM1 Warfighting. And he made Warfighting, not just the manual, but the action, the focus of the Marine Corps. And he had a lasting impact on Marines. And sailors like me as well, who heard about him, because he was the Commandant when I first came in the Navy. He died on March 24th,

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  2024, at the age of 95, in Alexandria, Virginia. Now, there's a place called the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies, and they made a document called Grayisms.

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  Grayisms and other thoughts on leadership from General Al Gray is compiled by a guy named Paul Ott, who is also Marine, is published by the Potomac Institute Press, and I think it captures some of the lessons from this great leader and from people who learned from him, and they pass it on in this, if you call it a book or a document, I don't know, but this book, we'll call it a book, Grayisms and Other Thoughts on Leadership. So let's get to it. You can get this, by the way, you can just download this, it's online. Here's the intro. "From the very beginning of working with General Gray, there were several things

• 4:54Jocko Willink?

  that became very obvious. Foremost are how much he loves his Marines along with the sailors who served with them, and how much they love and respect him in return. He has great admiration for all armed forces. Another thing is how humble he really is. It's never been and never will be about him, and part of that respect is how often people have General Gray stories to share with you. We gave them a name, Grayisms." So that's kind of where the stuff comes from. Fast forward a little bit, "We were able to gain greater insight into this very special Marine who took what he got and made what he wanted." This book is a compilation of many sayings we have heard and heard repeated as they have

• 5:36Jocko Willink?

  been shared from one Marine to another, and that's from Paul Ott, Corporal, USMC, 1961 to 1965. And they wrote this book in 2014, I think it came out in 2015. So, General Gray, there's some cool, the cool thing about these modern generals is there's like videos of him talking, and you can see he's fired up. What are Grayisms? Grayisms are the embodiment of simplicity.

• 6:06Jocko Willink?

  The listing is in no particular order of importance. Grayisms, like other words of guidance, become important when they are applied. As evidenced from the many times these statements were repeated, they were, they are important to the Marines that remember them. If applied, they will become important to any leader. Straightforward. This guy's just a straight shooter. And guess what it starts off with? Well, the one I'm gonna start with. "You are the one responsible." Boom. There you go. General Gray has always seen himself as the one ultimately responsible for what happened to his Marines. In 1990, after a helicopter crash in Korea, Marines were medically evacuated to a burn center in San Antonio, Texas.

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  Sergeant Major Summers was with him when General Gray walked into the waiting room, told the families assembled there that he was responsible for their sons' injuries, and asked them what he could do to help. This took moral courage. So there you go. This is such an awesome example of ownership, because here's the commandant of the Marine Corps in charge of almost 300,000 Marines, and there's a helicopter crash. Now, was he flying that helicopter? Was he near that helicopter? Was he in charge of the helicopter's maintenance? Did he come up with a flight plan? Did he even know that thing was happening? No, of course not. He's in charge of 300,000 Marines. But he knows that as a commandant, he is ultimately responsible.

• 7:30Jocko Willink?

  That's what I called extreme ownership, in the book Extreme Ownership. Fast forward a little bit. It goes back to General John A. Lejeune, our 13th Commandant, when he said that "the relationship between officers and enlisted Marines is not one of a superior to subordinate, but more like a teacher and a scholar." And he implored that all Marines should be responsible for their activities, and that you owe it to your Marines to see to it that each one is stronger morally, mentally, and physically when he leaves you than when he joins you, and that's the cardinal thought process that Marine Commandants share and accept as a responsibility. So, that's the way it all starts off. "You are the one responsible."

• 8:15Jocko Willink?

  Here's a little story here.

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  This is under the title, "Hold Them Together and Point Them in the Right Direction." During Desert Storm and Desert Shield, General Gray went to visit the troops often. The mission each time was to talk to as many young officers and NCOs as possible. The message, the message, "The most critical leadership point is in the first 15 seconds. Hold your Marines together and point them in the right direction." Boom.

• 8:43Jocko Willink?

  The hardest thing was when he had to come back to Washington. Sergeant Major Summers said that the generals worried about his Marines and the chemical threat. General Gray was very, very concerned with the possibility of heavy casualties. As a result, we spent a lot of time going from one unit to another. I sat in meetings with him constantly. We would come out of the meetings and we would discuss what went on in the meeting, and it was always, "What do you think Sergeant Major?" I also often shared with him my worry for him personally. He was so concerned that I was becoming increasingly concerned about his own health. The man didn't sleep, he didn't eat. He was constantly traveling, constantly working, constantly preaching the message of preparedness.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  And that's from Sergeant Major Summers, who wrote a book called Uncommon Men. So, he continues on here. "The greatest tribute to General Gray's philosophy for leading came during Desert Storm. There wasn't an officer or enlisted leader on the battlefield that was afraid to make a decision following the maneuver thought process, mission guidance, and commander's intent." So I'll say that again, there wasn't an officer or an enlisted guy that wasn't, that was hesitant to make a decision. They were gonna make decisions. That's decentralized command. Continuing on, "We had focused so hard on our capability, on training, on maneuver warfare, on all the things we did in the liberation of Kuwait. To me, it was the final examination. Does it work? Yes, it did.

• 10:09Jocko Willink?

  Our Marines went through that place like a knife through butter. We saw young officers and young corporals and sergeants who, in the true sense of maneuver warfare, didn't have to worry about getting authority from higher command. They understood the commander's intent, and that freed them to do what they had to do." So, again, this is decentralized command. Everyone is a leader, and they've got to understand, not just what they're doing, but why they're doing it.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  Next title. Next quote, don't paint rocks. You ever been on a Marine Corps base?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  No. Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 10:44Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever seen white rocks or army base sometimes? Like on the side of a road, kind of going along outlining a road?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Not that I can recall.

• 10:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, if you go to, unfortunately, you go to some, some bases and there's white rocks there. Like, kind of, they'll put them along the road. And it's probably not that necessary to paint your rocks white. Uh, don't paint rocks. His point, don't waste your effort doing unnecessary things. Well, meaning people can go to great lengths doing things that are not required. Painting rocks in advance of a general's visit is just one example. We all know organizations that paint rocks and leaders that knowingly allow it to occur. Some might even expect it. Some paint rocks in more subtle, but still wasteful ways.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  I don't, uh.

• 11:34Jocko Willink?

  You don't get it?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think I get it, but why do they paint, paint rocks literally?

• 11:39Jocko Willink?

  Literally, literally paint the rocks because they, so all the rocks look the same. And they're all uniformed and they look clean and they look squared away.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Like rocks, like?

• 11:49Jocko Willink?

  Like a rock the size of a shoebox.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:52Jocko Willink?

  And paint thirty of those rocks white and then line the road with them.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Like?

• 11:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, spaced apart, you know, twenty feet.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, alright, so I, I still don't get why they do that, though.

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  Cause it looks nice.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 12:05Jocko Willink?

  In their mind, it looks nice. And if you're a general and you're like, wait a second, the last guy had his rocks painted. Why do I have like shabby looking rocks?

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Wait, who's, uh, he, so he has rock, what do you mean, he has rocks like when I drive to my office?

• 12:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so imagine this, I was coming to visit you at your house.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  And out on your driveway, you had some rocks that kind of lined the driveway. And you want it to look nice.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  For your visit.

• 12:30Jocko Willink?

  For my visit, because I'm the general and you're the Colonel. And so you're like, hey, Corporal, we need all these rocks to be the same, paint them all white. And what's Corporal do? He paints them white. And now I show up, I'm like, oh, those rocks are good. They obviously care about me. They show that they, you see what I'm saying?

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 12:46Jocko Willink?

  It goes beyond, to use one of my terms, functional cleanliness. Right? So we have functional cleanliness. Okay, makes sense. We're gonna put some rocks on the road so people can see the road a little more clearly at night. Cool. Oh, now we're painting them white. Oh, now we're repainting. You see what I'm saying? It's a waste of time. That's what he's getting at.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  I got you. Okay, so the the rock, the white rock painting scenario is commonplace in the Marine base?

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  It's a little too, I've seen it. I s- I think there's less of it now, but it certainly was a thing.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Oh, for real?

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:19Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent. See some white rocks lighting the road.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he's saying, hey, brother, that's unnecessary.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  Don't be painting red.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Got you.

• 13:27Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 13:29Jocko Willink?

  Next quote, know yourself, know your people, know your profession. This is General Gray's fundamental tenet of leadership. He will quickly point out that he's not the first leader who believed it. To which we would respond, he personified it. To be a leader, one must begin with knowing yourself, the real you. Not what you think you are, but what others know you are, and it includes knowing what you don't know. Knowing your people knows going beyond their name, rank, and serial number. It means knowing them as people, starting with each individual. Fast forward a little bit. Many think no one may know their profession better than General Gray. His office even today resembles a small library. When deployed, he often took a footlocker full of books to read.

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  And when he returned, they were not only red, they were also marked up with highlighters and notes.

• 14:22Jocko Willink?

  And here's a quote from General Gray, "In my humble opinion, the military is going overboard on information and underboard, if that's a word, on knowledge. And we ought to concentrate more on knowledge and what that means and less on information."

• 14:41Jocko Willink?

  This is the, the idea of memorizing stuff as opposed to learning stuff. When I went to college, I, I hadn't memorized all kinds of stuff. And I'm good at memorizing, I can memorize anything. And I would memorize stuff. And it's good, but there's a limitation to it. You, it's so much better to actually understand something than it is to just memorize something. Got to understand the context of why it is that way and how it got to be that way. And then you have, in my opinion, you have deeper and longer lasting knowledge than I just memorized a bunch of facts.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. The, um, you know how they say that the world isn't, I mean, the problem isn't the limitations of access to knowledge or to information. It's the lack of knowledge that people have. So the, if, yeah, like in jujitsu, right? Where it's like, you can watch a million YouTube videos on a million moves, but doesn't mean you know jujitsu now, you know, kind of a thing.

• 15:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, there's a physical barrier there too. You know, you have to do, you can't just watch a physical activity. You have to do it. It'll help somewhat to watch it. But you have to do the thing.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:57Jocko Willink?

  And that is similar here. You can read a bunch of military tactics about how to react to contact. And you can memorize different moves, but it's different. You get out there on that terrain and you see that little ravine and you see that finger sticking out. You see that enemy is like moving behind concealment. Oh, and now they're moving to cover. There's all these things are gonna happen you didn't expect.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. And that's not to mention, even if, and there's varying degrees of like, um, experience, you know, there's like training experience. There's like real combat experiences, all this stuff, where if you don't have any of it, then you only have the information. It seems like it doesn't translate to knowledge at all.

• 16:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But it is so interesting that that gets, you can, you can contrast that with the fact that this guy read so many books all the time, right? And, and I, I can honestly say that I experienced that when I read about face so much. That not so much like the, hey, we're in combat. We're getting shot at. Translation, but a lot of the administrative stuff. A lot of like, oh. You know, one of, one of the things that I got from Hackworth, just off the top of my head. I mean, I stole all kinds of things from Hackworth. But. Understanding that the next echelon above you in the chain of command like doesn't get it. You know, that's the, that's the opinion. Do you like, oh, the next echelon doesn't get it.

• 17:18Jocko Willink?

  And understanding that that's not correct. It's just that, and that you're responsible for making sure that they get it. That was a huge part of me. Being successful and building a good relationship with my boss. Instead of being like, oh, he doesn't get it. I was like, oh, he doesn't get it because of me.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  It's my fault. And I need to make sure that he does understand what's happening. I need to do a better job with the after action reward. So doing those things, I read about them and then I saw them in real life. If I hadn't read about them, look, is there a 50% chance I could have figured it out? Maybe, but maybe not.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:50Jocko Willink?

  So. Reading about it gave me a heads up. And then. Actually doing it and then it was like, okay, cool. This makes sense. So you could do the same thing. With jujitsu where it's like, oh. If the person does this. On the arm lock. You need to make, adjust your hips over here and you go, oh, and you could read it or watch it. And then when you do it, you could have a pretty good chance of executing it. Maybe you have to execute it a few times before you get it. But it's all adding. Everything that you can do to add knowledge into your, add information into your brain. That that information then can be contextualized and turned into knowledge more rapidly.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. And, and jujitsu is one of those, you can't just trial and error your way through jujitsu.

• 18:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  At all. Like if you don't know, someone's going to show you, someone is going to demonstrate whether it's a video or a coach or whatever. Um, you can't just be like, oh yeah, I know zero jujitsu and then just sort of figure it out.

• 18:49Jocko Willink?

  Bro, we about to have an ecological jujitsu discussion? Are you tracking any of that right now?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Ecological.

• 18:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, there's like a whole theory of training of ecological training versus, and I don't know what they call traditional training, but. Basically ecological training.

• 19:04Jocko Willink?

  In Jiu Jitsu, you don't get shown any moves. You just get told what the outcome is that you're looking for. And there's some people that that that's how they're training like and so you basically make games. Get around their legs or whatever. So there's just, it's just, and and I think uh there's obviously a good balance of all these things that make things work well. But that's where I thought I thought you were about to just break into this.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  No, well.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  The ecological discussion.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  We obviously could, but in and of it. So that feels like.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  We couldn't because you don't know what it is.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  I do now.

• 19:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  That you just told me.

• 19:39Jocko Willink?

  No, but people are real into it.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  I dig it, but I don't know. I don't know that that would be the best. And then again, I don't know. I'd have to know the details and really what it looks like in real life. But I don't know that that would be as beneficial as one might think if someone's starting from zero. So it's like, yeah, get around those legs because that was me. My first day of Jiu Jitsu. I knew what. I didn't know what side mount was, but I knew what mount was. I know what rear naked choke is. I know what arm bar is. I know what guard is. Oh, yeah, bro. I was trying to get there all day and I was freaking just gassing. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know any moves. And then if no one ever taught me moves, I don't think I would ever got there. Even I mean, maybe.

• 20:14Jocko Willink?

  You would have got there at a very, very, very slow pace. Very. If you had a certain type of mind too, because there's some people like. You ever notice some people say, oh, I just did this and it worked? And some people are like, they don't even know what they just did, whether it worked or not.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. But usually like even people with that kind of mind, it's like there's some foundation that that was taught to them, you know, like. Even like Haley O'Gracy himself, by the way, he's watching Judo guys and you know, Japanese Jiu Jitsu guys and like, he's watching the framework. And then, yes, of course, he had one of these minds where he's like, okay, I can make these adjustments and make up stuff off of this framework, but you can't just like, can't just trial and error your way. I mean, look, am I going to say can't? I'm not going to be absolute and say that, but I'm just saying, I don't see that as the way. But if you have a lot of knowledge, oh, oh, frick yeah, all day. In fact, that's one of Jeff Glover's like training methods.

• 21:08Jocko Willink?

  Is what?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  He'd be like, hey, get to here.

• 21:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  From this position, just get to here. And then you got to use all your knowledge that you learned, by the way. So.

• 21:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that you learned that it's that's like Jeff Glover being the the original ecological Jiu Jitsu practitioner trainer.

• 21:24Jocko Willink?

  But I also used to do this with kids because little kids, they will actually figure things out that you didn't think of. And so when you tell a kid, okay, you put a kid in the guard and you say, okay, now get, now get to this other position and you don't tell them how? They're gonna figure out like nine different ways. I would say seven out of 10 kids will figure out a way. Three kids will be like, hey dude, you need to push over here. And that's just the way it is. Like you said, there's like a personality, a certain personality that is going to be very open minded and very risk taking and will try different stuff. With adults, like you can't do that. It doesn't work as well because adults are like, oh,

• 22:06Jocko Willink?

  I got get around their legs. Our minds are too closed when we're, when we're grown up. We need to be told what to do more. Little kids will just figure, figure stuff out.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I think a big part of, a big vet, a big part of why that's valuable for kids is because and this applies to adults, but I don't know, for whatever reason, maybe kids' minds are just like more like that where you know how if something is relevant, then it becomes way more interesting? So if you're just like, hey, you want to get around his legs and be like, okay, cool. I'm gonna do it. And sure, they'll just try anything. They'll, you know, whatever they'll go, but they know they're attached, their brain is attached to getting around the legs. So they're like, okay, they try this, they try that, they try this. And usually the, the other kid is not some expert kid. He's another kid, you know, whatever. If it's some expert kid, trust me, their little creative mind ain't getting around those legs. See what I'm saying?

• 22:57Speaker 01

  So they're gonna do, and it's all fun. It's a game. They know the outcome that they're going for, whatever, and they get creative and they, they're like, okay, that's cool. And you can, but what it does is at the end of the day, it makes that guard pass really relevant. So now when you teach them a move, they're gonna like, ooh, I can do that. Next time I'm trying to quote unquote, get around these legs. See what I'm saying? So it's now it's that relevant, it creates this like demand, this hole that they can fill.

• 23:20Jocko Willink?

  Yes, and it contextualizes.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:23Jocko Willink?

  Which is what is why I think this is important, that it's, look, you need information. That's why you read books. That's why you study. That's why you learn. But then you need to have an opportunity to put that into action and, and contextualize and bring into the real world, the information that you have and you, that's what turns the information into knowledge. So if you're a trainer, it's very beneficial to do that. It's another good point. If I had a, a SEAL platoon and I could see that the way that they're getting headcount was bad. If I told them, hey, the way you're getting your head count, like I'm watching them in rehearsal. And I can see that the way they're getting their head count is bad. If I said, hey, the way you're getting your head count is bad. They'd be like, well, this is how we want to do it. Okay. I stopped telling them that. I would tell them after.

• 24:09Jocko Willink?

  Because guess what happens in the field? They have to get a head count. They can't get one. There's confusion. There's chaos. They fail. Now they, now exactly what you just said, now they come back, their mind is open. And they're like, you say, hey, I know a good methodology for getting a head count in chaotic situations. They go, what is it? And you tell them and boom, they're in the game. You can't, before you go out, you're like, hey, this isn't the best way to get head count. It's gonna work fine. I did it my last time this way.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll just count them.

• 24:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 24:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, whatever.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Just like, oh, just get around the legs. Easy.

• 24:38Jocko Willink?

  So it's good to create a little bit of, um, a little bit of an opening. A little bit of a, of a, of a, of a gap. When they see the gap, they more likely to fill it. When they don't see the gap, you, you hand them something. They're just like, what am I gonna use this for?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  What's this for? Yeah, exactly.

• 24:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

• 24:58Jocko Willink?

  This might be my favorite quote. Take what you get, make what you want.

• 25:05Jocko Willink?

  Take what you get, make what you want. What an attitude to have.

• 25:11Jocko Willink?

  Uh, it says, this is one of the most often repeated phrases of General Gray. He uses it many ways in talking about his assignments. The Marines he has led, the Marines he has had the responsibility to lead, and in overcoming the obstacles he faced. While others sought out assignments that would further their careers, General Gray accepted every duty given to him and made the best of it. In the long run, it was a key ingredient to his success as a professional in the nation's Corps of Marines. But what a great attitude. Take what you get, make what you want. You're not gonna get anything handed to you the way you want it to be on a silver platter. It's not happening. This is not happening. You take what you get. Okay, this is what I got. Now I want to make it what I want.

• 25:52Jocko Willink?

  Freaking it. Get yourself an attitude adjustment.

• 25:56Jocko Willink?

  Another good one. You cannot write a recipe for all situations. Doctrine is a guide, General Gray tells us. He wrote in the forward to warfighting. This book describes my philosophy on warfighting. It is the Marine Corps doctrine and as such, it provides the authoritative basis for how we fight and how we prepare to fight. It is not intended as a reference manual, but it is designed to be read from cover to cover. This book does not contain specific techniques and procedures for conduct. It requires judgment and application.

• 26:34Jocko Willink?

  So remember that doctrine should be a guide. Just like in jujitsu, passing guard and where you put your hands and where you put, that's a guide.

• 26:46Jocko Willink?

  And there's some, I remember when Glover showed up and he had like back escapes. Someone would be on his back and he'd do something that was completely against everything that I ever learned. What are you doing, Jeff Glover? Why are you doing this? What are you doing? Why are you doing this? And it's like, oh, because when I do this, they do that and I get over here and then I'm out. Oh, wow. So you can't write a recipe for all situations. This is also good in terms of self-defense when it's like, well, what situation are you going to be in?

• 27:16Jocko Willink?

  Downward stabbing attack motion with the overhead knife. Like that is cool. You can learn one self-defense move for that, but that's not what's going to happen in the street. It's going to be different. So you need to learn the philosophies

• 27:30Jocko Willink?

  about how to fight, about distance, about timing, about, about closing the distance, about what to do with weapons, about how to de-escalate before the whole thing gets started. These are all things that you need to apply. And it's the same thing with combat. It's the same thing with leadership. Like there are going to be times in leadership where it's, you guess what you need to do? Jocko talks about the indirect approach all the time. There's going to be times in leadership where you need to go, hey, Echo, you need to stop doing that now. Totally direct. There are times that that happens.

• 27:58Jocko Willink?

  There are times that that happens. So we, as we learn skills, we need to learn to adapt those skills. And, and you ever seen that video of Larry Bird shooting a shot? He's behind the backboard and he shoots a shot over the backboard, swish, hoop. Like he's about to fall out of bounds. He gets the ball. He sees the hoop and just like shoots from behind the backboard. He never practiced that shot in his life, right? He didn't practice behind the backboard shots, but he used that, he used the skills that he had to adapt into that moment. And that's what you need to do with leadership. That's what you need to do with jujitsu. That's what you need with combat. That's what you need to do with writing. That's what you need to do with life.

• 28:43Jocko Willink?

  Keep an open mind. You can't write a recipe for all situations. He says, "It doesn't cost any money to think. Thinking can be our greatest resource. Thinking can be the source of new ideas, new approaches and new solutions. Thinking doesn't cost any money and it just might save money." Isn't it interesting that we could actually sit around and like discuss and think through problems and it doesn't cost anything?

• 29:08Jocko Willink?

  Uh, fast forward a little bit. Want a new idea? Read an old book. And he says this, "I have always been a reader and of course I spend so much time aboard ship. For example, I would take a footlocker full of books with me to the Mediterranean and to the Mideast and read about the countries in that region and the impact of their religious history and culture." And this is my key component of this. "It's important to look at people through their eyes, not just our eyes." So he's just trying to gain perspective of what the way other people are thinking. And he says, "You name it, I read it."

• 29:51Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward, getting into some core leadership activities here. "You must care more about the people you are privileged to lead than about yourself. Everything that gets done, gets done through people. Leaders must truly care more about the people they lead than themselves." To him, to General Gray, "These are more than just words. They represent a way of life, his life, and he proved it by the example that he set."

• 30:20Jocko Willink?

  Unless, and here's another one, unless you care more about others than yourself, you will fall prey to careerism.

• 30:28Jocko Willink?

  Careerism. Do they have that in a normal world or is that just a military thing?

• 30:32Speaker 01

  What is careerism?

• 30:33Jocko Willink?

  I'm looking out for my career.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  I would imagine. I don't know.

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they do. Then what am I saying? Of course they do. They do. It might not be as profound or as obvious. But you know, in the military, like you get this job to get this job and you get that job. You need to take this job and you get that job and you get it. You see what I'm saying?

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:54Jocko Willink?

  You're, we call them in the SEAL teams, ticket punchers.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like it'd be a different dynamic in the military because just how, what you said, I learned this completely from you, by the way. I wasn't in the military. You know that about me. But you say that if you have a career without any like black marks on it or whatever, you know, it's like, oh, that looks good, you know? More so than, hey, this like, this guy made these cool changes with this, this new way of thinking, you know, like really brought this freaking outfit to the next level. It's less about that and more about, you know, staying safe or whatever.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  In the real world or whatever, the corporate world or whatever, it's like you are kind of rewarded for like bringing things to the next level a little bit more, but I will say this, on an individual level. Oh yeah, I think, and I've even witnessed it. I don't, I haven't really had that many, I've had a lot of jobs, but yes. On an individual level, people will be like, no, no, I have a job to do. It doesn't matter how it affects necessarily the long-term, whatever. I can say this week that I did my job good, you know? Regardless of like the other repercussions kind of thing. Oh, I see that all the time, even right now.

• 32:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and what you're talking about really is what we in the SEAL teams would call risk of, and in the military in general, risk averse, right? So, oh, hey, we could go do this mission. If it goes well, that'd be awesome. If it goes bad, I'm gonna look bad. And generally speaking, generally speaking, people oftentimes will say, I'd rather just play it safe. Because the upside that you get for conducting an operation, the operation goes well, great job.

• 32:35Jocko Willink?

  Let's say in a point system, let's say you get five points because you went out, did a risky operation and it went really well. You get five points for that. If it goes bad, you're getting negative fifteen.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:47Jocko Willink?

  So you're like, well, I could get five, but I could lose fifteen. I'm just going to keep it at zero. I'm just going to stay safe.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:52Jocko Willink?

  And there's a lot of people, unfortunately, in the military that kind of can take that. And see, in the corporate world, the same thing can happen. And because in the corporate world, it's like, oh, I'm going to take a risk to go into this market. If I fail, if I win, cool. I won. Five points. If I fail, we lose a bunch of capital. We might have to shut down some of our divisions. Minus fifteen.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:22Jocko Willink?

  So it can be the same thing on both sides.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:24Jocko Willink?

  Probably maybe the five and plus five minus fifteen might not be quite the same. Because the minus fifteen in the military is like, oh, you had, you lost people. People got wounded, people got killed. There's collateral damage. Civilians got killed. Like those are so much worse than like, oh, we did a great job.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. In, in the corporate world, real world, whatever, we'll call it what, private industry.

• 33:47Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Whatever. Um, that you can make big moves and get big payoffs. See what I'm saying? Like in the military, you're like,

• 33:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  You can't get a raise. You can't, you know, make more money for the Navy.

• 33:59Jocko Willink?

  Like for instance, you, you, you do a mission. Like you've got a mission that comes up to go capture this bad guy. Well, who's this bad guy? Like you could probably name three actual bad guys of the last 20 years, right? You got like, if you went down the list, you'd name three of them.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 34:16Jocko Willink?

  Including Saddam Hussein. You see what I'm saying? Most people like that. So, so there's very few where everyone goes, oh, that is worth the risk. So you go out, you capture this bad guy. Great. Everything goes, well, cool. You're, you're high five. You get, you get plus three on your, on your tab. But go out and capture that guy that's gonna get, look, if you go and you kill Osama bin Laden, cool, plus 15, right? Of course. You go capture Saddam, cool, plus 15. But most people that you're going to capture, it's like plus two, plus one, maybe plus three. Cool. Now you go out, you do an operation, you have massive civilian casualties, or you take casualties, people get wounded, people

• 35:01Jocko Willink?

  get killed, minus eight, minus 15. So why is it worth the risk? You see what I'm saying? So you can understand why these, why people are risk averse. And then it comes down to, okay, how do we mitigate some of that risk?

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems hard to measure massive success. Like it, in the corporate industry, whatever, private industry, it's easy to measure massive success. Like, someone makes a huge move, they double revenue this year. It's like, booms, easy, tangible, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to demonstrate that in the military.

• 35:38Jocko Willink?

  It is definitely difficult. Check. Uh, next point. Never say "I" unless you are talking about making a mistake.

• 35:52Jocko Willink?

  It is amazing how the general consistently gives credit to others in all accomplishments, saying "we", while taking responsibility for a mistake or an error in judgment made by saying "I", so, pretty straightforward. You know what we really need to do?

• 36:11Jocko Willink?

  You can accomplish anything you want if you don't care who gets the credit.

• 36:17Jocko Willink?

  I've probably heard that one before. Here's one. "No one makes a mistake on purpose. We tend to over-supervise people and become concerned about how our effort will look when they make mistakes. We must turn our people loose and let them take actions. That is how they learn. Mistakes are to be minimized but not eliminated. People can learn from mistakes. And learning from mistakes is the best way to reduce future mistakes. Accepting mistakes can be seen as an investment in your people." That's a really good way of putting it. "Accepting mistakes can be seen as an investment in your people. The greatest mistake a person could make can be the unwillingness to move forward because it involves risks. The failure to act..."

• 36:57Jocko Willink?

  A mistake leads to mediocrity and the world moving forward at a rapid pace mediocrity leads to failure. Should someone ever make an intentional mistake? No, as General Gray says, no, no one makes a mistake on purpose. So it's really good to remember that and it's good to understand what people's intent is because like when you got kids, they make mistakes. But what's their intent? If their intent was like, I'm trying to get away with something and I did this thing over here. Okay, that's bad. If their intent was like, oh, I was trying to do this thing and this bad thing happened. Okay, cool. We get it. Mistake.

• 37:33Jocko Willink?

  Uh, General Gray says those who can't teach can't lead. If you're not teaching, you're not leading. Also says you can never spend too much money on training. Pretty straightforward. And this is something that I just talked about with Hackworth.

• 37:50Jocko Willink?

  General Gray points out the same thing. The next level of of authority is your natural enemy.

• 37:58Jocko Willink?

  General Gray believed the person best able to make a decision is the one closest to the situation, especially when the next level of authority may be miles away or even in another country. Gaining approvals from higher levels can greatly reduce momentum and cause needless delays. While this Grayism may be more tongue in cheek than the others, it clearly shows General Gray's dislike for what can be overly bureaucratic structures. Systems can aid and abet mediocrity bureaucracy while needed should be minimized whenever possible.

• 38:34Jocko Willink?

  With a smile, General Gray says headquarters has an insatiable appetite for information. Give them what they ask for, but pay no gratitudes. When General Gray was Commandant, he became higher headquarters. He followed his Grayism, cutting 10% per year staff and resources out of headquarters and sending them to the field. There's cool videos of General Gray walking around, talking to young Marines and he'd be like, when's the last time you were in the field? It'd be like, well, sir, I'm not, you don't even remember? It was that long ago? Need to get in the field. He wasn't playing around.

• 39:11Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of risk, there is nothing, nothing worth seeking that doesn't involve risk. General Gray believes that a risk averse or zero debt defect mentality is the antithesis of leadership. It stifles innovation, motivation and leadership. Chaos and uncertainty create opportunities.

• 39:34Jocko Willink?

  Certainty is described as following established policies and procedures, making consistent and safe decisions, low risk, minimizing mistakes, thoroughly planning before acting and building on what is.

• 39:48Jocko Willink?

  Uncertainty is described as creating new paths, making bold decisions, learning from mistakes, acting quickly, exploiting opportunities and building on what can be.

• 40:04Jocko Willink?

  That's interesting. It's also, you can see, the more you're building on what can be, the more risk there is. Hey, we know these things are factual. We know what, we know what foundation we have. We can build on that. But when you're like, well, we might have this foundation and it's a little nebulous right now, there's more risk. But that chaos and uncertainty, that's where the, that's where the opportunities are.

• 40:30Jocko Willink?

  Next one, intent is the glue that holds everything together. Every mission has multiple parts. The task to be accomplished, which is the what, and the intent, the reason why, along with the desired result of the action or the intent. Of the two, the intent is predominant. The intent must convey the leader's vision. It must be clearly understood at least two echelons or levels above and two echelons or levels below. This permits subordinates to take action and decisively, quickly and decisively when the opportunity arises and when it is consistent with the overall intent. This is just classic decentralized command, making sure people understand why they're doing what they're doing and understanding

• 41:14Jocko Willink?

  what the intent is so they can go out and take action. And here's what General Gray says. Marines will do whatever you ask them to if you tell them why. Unless his intent is known, you are playing with half a hand. People know what they like doing, but they don't like being told how. Telling them how restricts creativity. In every new assignment, I would talk to all the officers and staff NCOs about my thought process. It is important that intent is known. It's a good one to practice with your kids. Like, don't tell them exactly what to do. Just give them some broad guidelines and tell them what the intent is.

• 41:55Jocko Willink?

  Continues on here. Knowing intent allows the individual closest to the situation to determine how a task can be accomplished. Intent is a prerequisite to decentralized execution. Knowing the intent, the why, the how doesn't matter.

• 42:13Jocko Willink?

  And this is from the warfighting book. The burden of understanding falls on the senior and the subordinate alike. The senior must make perfectly clear the result he expects, but in such a way that does not inhibit initiative. Subordinates must have a clear understanding of what their commander is thinking. Further, they should understand the intent of the commander two levels up.

• 42:41Jocko Willink?

  And this is one thing that I always point out is like,

• 42:45Jocko Willink?

  you should be happy when someone on your team asks why you want them to do something. Not mad. So when that goes, why do you want it like that? I shouldn't be like, because I said so. I should be like, oh, here's what I'm trying to make happen. Here's the overall intent.

• 42:58Jocko Willink?

  That's good leadership.

• 43:01Jocko Willink?

  Next, you communicate by how as much as what you say. In a quote from warfighting, we believe that implicit communication, implicit communications to communicate through mutual understanding, use of, using a minimum of key, well-understood phrases, or even anticipations, anticipating each other's thoughts is a faster, more effective way to communicate than through the use of detailed, explicit instructions.

• 43:30Jocko Willink?

  This is when I wrote down the laws of combat for the first time. And the number two was simple. That was because I was watching a platoon out in the field and they were trying to communicate with each other in like, full. Detailed paragraphs of of words. And you're there's, you know, it's a it's a training operation. But there's machine guns fires, there's explosions going off, there's people yelling and screaming. And you know, this platoon commander is like, hey, what we need to do is we need to move another hundred and fifty meters southwest down this ravine. Once we get down there, we're gonna set up. He's going on this whole thing. And what he really needed to say was peel right, like just.

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  That's why when it says a minimum of key, well understood phrases. Peel right, that's all you need to know, dude. That's all anybody needs to know. We all know what that means. We don't need to know hundred and fifty meters. We don't need to know perimeter at the end. We don't need to know about this ravine. We don't need to know any of that stuff. We just need to know peel right. When you say we know what to do. And we'll make it happen.

• 44:39Jocko Willink?

  So simple, clear, concise communication.

• 44:44Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is interesting.

• 44:47Jocko Willink?

  This is a story in here from someone named Master Sergeant J D Baker. You know who that is?

• 44:54Speaker 01

  I know who J D Baker is.

• 44:55Jocko Willink?

  J D Baker, yeah, who has been on this podcast multiple times, who he did the the Civil War, which we still need to finish. We got up to Gettysburg. But J D Baker, Master Sergeant.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  So that's that's the same dude.

• 45:08Jocko Willink?

  This is him, yeah. This is J D. I sent him a text. I sent him a picture this yesterday. I'm like, this is you, right? He's like, absolutely. So here's a story from our our our brother J D Baker.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  In nineteen eighty nine, Marines were conducting combat operations in Panama. We were responsible for running combat patrols around the Aragon tank farm located on the Pacific side of the canal zone. Marines operated out of a fire base located in the tank farm.

• 45:38Jocko Willink?

  Few, if any, high-ranking officials ever made it an appearance at the firebase, except one. As we were preparing for night operations, in came a couple of vehicles. We heard the commandant was coming to visit, but we never expected to see him at the firebase. Obviously, we were mistaken. General Gray had been at the naval base looking to see all Marines. When he found, when he found that most were in the firebase, he came out to be with the Marines. General Gray's presence lifted the spirits of all the Marines. He did not just hang out in the Combat Operations Center. He made his way out to the fighting positions and spoke with all the Marines going to conduct night operations. He personally thanked the Marines for the job they were doing,

• 46:22Jocko Willink?

  and said if they needed anything to send it up the chain.

• 46:27Jocko Willink?

  General Gray's visit spoke volumes for the Marines. They felt they'd become comrades with the commandant, because he took the time to meet and speak with everyone in the firebase. By the look of his staff members, this was not part of the planned itinerary. The presence of General Gray was felt by all. Master Sergeant J.D. Baker, USMC, retired. So JD putting out word, and I talked to JD, he's saying he actually spent a lot of time with General Gray after, after he retired, which is awesome.

• 47:02Jocko Willink?

  Going through some more of these. Ah, I like this one a lot. What you did isn't as important as what you were thinking. Again, this is, when people do things, look, they might make a mistake, but what were they thinking about? What was their intent? He says, "In tactics, the most important thing is not whether you go right or left, but why you go right or left." That's Major General Al Gray. It's like, so important. Got a whole section in here, "Leadership by walking around."

• 47:37Jocko Willink?

  Marines called him the gray ghost, often showing up unexpected places and times. He would just go out there and see people, go out there and see what's happening. That was his mode.

• 47:48Jocko Willink?

  Here's a brilliant one.

• 47:51Jocko Willink?

  "Do not make any more enemies than you already have."

• 47:57Jocko Willink?

  As I often say, it's not a good idea to form an antagonistic relationship with your boss, with your peers, with your subordinates. Why would you do that? What about with the supply department? What about with the, what about with the administrative department? No, don't make any enemies. Don't make any more enemies than you already have.

• 48:16Jocko Willink?

  Antagonistic relationships with people don't help you. They don't help them. They don't help the mission. They don't help the team.

• 48:24Jocko Willink?

  In Vietnam, 1967, Major Al Gray said, "There are two fundamentals when, when you're in a guerrilla and counter insurgency warfare environment. One of them is, you never do anything that's not good for the people you're trying to help. And number two, you don't ever make any more enemies than you've already got."

• 48:46Jocko Willink?

  Ah, now here's one I have never heard before, but it's awesome.

• 48:54Jocko Willink?

  "You can move elephants under their own power."

• 48:59Jocko Willink?

  Think about how smart this is. "The statement would be great advice and insight from any leader. It's especially powerful when you realize the statement comes from the man who, as the 29th Commandant, was in command of nearly 260,000 Marines. Managers may rely on the power of their positions. Leaders realize that power used is power lost. Some call it being empowering, which is power given. We prefer power assumed. Whatever you call it, moving, people moving on their own power can move organizations, large and small, as well as elephants."

• 49:42Jocko Willink?

  So, isn't that, like, you cannot get a, you cannot push an elephant. You can't pick it up and carry it. You have to get it to move under its own power. And if you can do that, that move, not only can that elephant move itself, it can move, it could move other things. It could knock down trees, but you can't, you can't throw the elephant at a tree to knock it down. You gotta get that elephant to move under its own power. And that's the same, that's the best form of leadership. The best form of leadership isn't, "I'm gonna push you to do something." It's like, "How can I get you to do that thing on your own, under your own power?"

• 50:20Jocko Willink?

  Quote from General Gray, "Everyone moves on their own power, not yours." And the other thing I always fervently believed in, and I've said it 2,000 times in speeches. "I've never met a Marine, officer or enlisted, a good one, that couldn't do 400% more if we let them."

• 50:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh, good little quote from General Al Gray there. And now, I'm just gonna run into, there's a bunch of these here. Turn people loose. When asked about how he transformed, the Marine Corps General Gray says, "He provided the guidance and then just turned the Marines loose. They did the rest." "Over-supervision causes more problems." "People can't grow, can't think if they're over-supervised." Isn't it interesting to think this is like the Marines and when people think of Marines, they think of just following orders and that's the way it's gonna be. And it's like, no! Develop the best in everybody. Achievement feeds on itself and creates more achievement.

• 51:25Jocko Willink?

  Powerful. Achievement feeds on itself, man. This is going back to the book. The book is called... It's Malcolm Gladwell. And he wrote a book, the one that talks about 10,000 hours, and I can't think of the name of it right now. Outliers? Outliers. So, in Outliers, one of the key components in Outliers is like, you get a kid to do good in soccer. But, hey, maybe he gets a little bit bigger, a little bit older. Put him in the, maybe he's, you know, he's seven. And you put him in there with the six-year-olds. What does he do? Kinda dominates. But a year is a big difference. So he goes out there, dominates, scores four goals, maybe five goals. What does he want to do when he gets home? Play soccer.

• 52:10Jocko Willink?

  Wants to play soccer, wants to practice soccer, wants to score some more goals. So what does he do? He gets some achievement, it's gonna turn into more achievement. As opposed to you take your seven-year-old son, you put him with the nine-year-olds, doesn't score any goals, kinda gets, everyone's faster than him, he's slow. What's he wanting to get when he gets home? Play video games. So, give some achievement. Achievement feeds on itself. Nice way to make things happen.

• 52:38Jocko Willink?

  Mental toughness is more important than physical toughness.

• 52:43Jocko Willink?

  It's mental toughness that gets you over the hurdle when you're exhausted. Hey, that being said, I'll throw this out there. Cause people ask me this all the time about SEAL training is like, is it mental or physical? It's both and it doesn't matter how mentally tough you are. If you haven't practiced climbing that freaking rope, you ain't climbing that freaking rope. That's the way it's happening. You need to, you need to be physically as hard as you can possibly be. And if you're mentally tough, you'll work that hard to get there. But having somebody that's not physically fit and thinking that they're, cause they're mentally tough. They're going to be able to hang with you and it ain't true. It's just not true. It's just not true. That's the equivalent of dudes that are like, whoa, street fighters. I see red, bro. Watch out. It's the same thing, bro. Doesn't matter what color you see.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter how mad you get. You get someone that's good at jujitsu or good at wrestling or good at boxing. And you take the big giant temper tantrum swing at them and a good boxer just like slip. And you're getting knocked out. You, you might even get knocked out with a straight right, like not even a setup, not a one, two, three, not a combo. No foot movement, nothing, just crack. Like when you're an idiot and you go up against a good boxer. You're just getting KO'd. So mental toughness is important. Please do not underestimate the physical toughness as well. Cause it doesn't matter how bad you want it. Doesn't matter. Like there's, there's, there's like some you can give to it, you know?

• 54:13Jocko Willink?

  If, if, if you took someone that was gonna run, running is a good example. And they had to run as far as they could. Well, someone that is mentally weak that runs all the time will beat someone that's mentally tough. That doesn't run.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:28Jocko Willink?

  Now a mentally tough person that hasn't been, that hasn't trained for running against a non mentally tough person that hasn't trained for. Obviously the mentally tough person is going to be gutted out. Like those blisters, keep going, whatever.

• 54:42Jocko Willink?

  But the non mentally tough person.

• 54:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, Micah, she broke her leg, broke her femur.

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  At Echelon Front, she's running a marathon. She was like, I'm not stopping. And she was finally, I think she made it to mile twenty four. She had found a stick on the side of the road to try and finish. But then the doctor, she's like, someone medical checked her or something. They're like, yo, you need to stop. And so she stopped. She made twenty four miles, but mental toughness was good. You know? Solid check on the mental toughness.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  But if she wouldn't have been mentally tough, she probably would have made it, you know, sixteen miles. See what I'm saying?

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:25Jocko Willink?

  Cause she gutted through. I mean, when does your femur actually break? From running, you see what I'm saying? So did it, did it break at mile? Nineteen? A lot of people would have been game over right there. She gutted through it.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:38Jocko Willink?

  Mentally tough. I mean, she's in the hospital. She had to get surgery, but we appreciate it. Go Micah.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you figure marathon slower running. Yeah, they break, but it's not like in football or something where it's like boom, one hit, one twist, whatever breaks usually.

• 55:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  It's, it's not that unless they step in a hole or something like that. It's like stress fracture, stress fracture, break, break, break, crack, crack.

• 56:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know how, I don't know what the dynamics of it. Is it like, is it like stress, stress, stress, stress, stress, crack? You know what I mean?

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:07Jocko Willink?

  Or is it just like stress, stress, stress, stress, stress, stress?

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Stress and wait a second, let's check it. Oh wait, that's already broken. Yeah, like, um, you know, fifty stress fractures on top of each other equals a break, kind of a thing, rather than one big break.

• 56:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  All at one time.

• 56:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But I'm not sure if that's correct or not. This is our assumption.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:27Jocko Willink?

  Our assumption is that like, oh, it's, it doesn't just go.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yes, I think that's a reasonable assumption only because you know, when you break your femur in one go.

• 56:38Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna feel that one?

• 56:39Speaker 01

  You're not gonna run. Uh, one more step even no less, uh,

• 56:45Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  However, many more miles.

• 56:46Jocko Willink?

  Depends on that mental toughness.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Depends on, it depends on the break too, by the way.

• 56:50Jocko Willink?

  True, true. And it depends probably on your, yeah, on the break, where the break is, what the level of break is, how strong you are.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:59Jocko Willink?

  Because if you're strong, your muscles might be able to power through a little bit more.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just get that good limp going.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and a lot of times too, when you, when we think, uh, I broke my femur. Like, what's the image in your head? That thing is completely broken apart, you know, kind of a thing. So I, yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right.

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  Well, we'll dig down on that one. Uh, next one. You must be ready to go tonight with what you have in your pocket. Okay. A little preparedness activity there. Uh, treat people the way you'd like to be treated, obviously. Take all the help you can get. This is an interesting one. Take all the help you can get. Boy, does that hurt the ego, doesn't it?

• 57:42Jocko Willink?

  So often it's like, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm okay. I'm fine. I don't need your help. No, actually, take all the help you can get. It's a good attitude.

• 57:52Jocko Willink?

  Here's the one that you've been hearing since third grade. Do your homework. Boy, but boy, but when you put that in the perspective of life, do your freaking homework. Do your homework.

• 58:07Jocko Willink?

  Wherever two Marines are, one is in charge and one is following. It's a common thing. I heard that a lot about the Marine Corps.

• 58:15Jocko Willink?

  Spend a little time every day making sure you have people who could replace you. This is why we're training our subordinate leadership.

• 58:23Jocko Willink?

  We're training our team to get up and take our place.

• 58:27Jocko Willink?

  You must train and educate your own replacement.

• 58:31Jocko Willink?

  Here's a good one.

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  It's a poor carpenter that doesn't hit his thumb once in a while. He isn't driving many nails. The very best make mistakes. If you don't push yourself to your limits and beyond, you will limit your true potential. Yep. You're gonna get caught sometimes, you know? You train jiu-jitsu, you're gonna get tapped out sometimes. It's gonna happen.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:54Jocko Willink?

  Like, yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Not if you just sit on the side.

• 58:57Jocko Willink?

  If you sit on the side, you ain't getting tapped out.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 59:00Jocko Willink?

  If you sit on the side, you, that's the one way to not get tapped out. Sit over there, watch.

• 59:06Jocko Willink?

  Mistakes happen, the keys to learn from them. Here's, here's one. Trains go down the tracks. You can get on or get off. Like, isn't that, that's like, uh, don't fight nature, right? You've got, like, the train is going down the track and sometimes you gotta look at it and be like, alright, are we gonna get on this train or not? We gonna get on this train or not? Cause the train's going. And we can't stop it. We can either get on the train or get off the train.

• 59:34Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes we think we can control more than we can. Sometimes you gotta get on the train or get off the train. Make a call.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Is, so, read, if you don't mind, read the quote again?

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we go. Trains go down the tracks. That's the quote. And then it has a sub thing. You can get on, you can get off.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that, that strikes me. Coincidentally, I've been thinking about this recently. Where kinda like, life just goes on, you know? And you know how you can, you know, actually, you say this in times of like hardship, where you say, remember, don't dwell, right? Kind of a thing where, so it kinda feels like that where life goes on and the more you start harping on or dwelling on something in the past, good or bad, by the way, you know how like you think of that touchdown you made in high school, you know? Or whatever, good and bad. Where life is gonna go on, people are gonna develop themselves. The world is gonna change, just like, bro, what are you, what are you doing? You still in high school making touchdowns?

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Or are you moving forward too, you know?

• 1:00:36Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Rico over here.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, or, or in, or in bad ways, you know? Where are you holding a grudge or are you, uh, still embarrassed about slipping, I don't know, in freaking, in the hallway or whatever, you know, kinda thing? It's like, basically, are you dwelling on something? And is that holding you back from thinking about the, actually, it, what sparked this thought is, uh, one of this audio, but I'm trying to remember which one is audiobook, but, but it said,

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  something about like, looking in the back versus looking forward. It was like,

• 1:01:09Jocko Willink?

  Like the rear view mirror is only four inches wide, but the front windshield is four feet wide.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  It was one of those quotes, but it was like, you know, and one that I hadn't heard before. Yeah, I forget what it is. I'm sorry to say, but it was, it was a good one. But anyway, yeah. That's how that struck me right there, where the, the train is coming down the tracks.

• 1:01:27Jocko Willink?

  Train's going down the tracks, bro.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  What are you doing, you know?

• 1:01:28Jocko Willink?

  Get on or get off.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:30Jocko Willink?

  Like, you can't stop it.

• 1:01:34Jocko Willink?

  Next one, failure is an orphan while success has many followers. We all know that one. Loyalty goes down as well as up.

• 1:01:45Jocko Willink?

  A good plan well executed is better than a perfect plan delayed. There's Patton all over that one. And then it says, the subtitle says, once things start happening, the plan goes out the window, be ready to adapt.

• 1:02:01Jocko Willink?

  Hmm. Whenever you make assumptions, you need an alternate plan. You can't predict the future, you can predict trends. It is, that's a really good, that's a really good note to remember is that when you're making assumptions, cool, you can make assumptions and you can come up with a plan. But if you've got an assumption, you better put an alternate plan in place in case your assumption isn't correct. Very, very important thing.

• 1:02:27Jocko Willink?

  If you have any question about which alternative to choose, pick the one I told you to do. Now, here's why I like this one. Is because you've heard me say, Echo Charles, that I'm always looking to use your plan. Right? Like, I'm looking to use your plan, like whether you're my boss, whether you're my subordinate, whether my peer, you come to me with a plan that you got, you could put together and you want to do it this way? My goal is to do it your way. That's my goal. So if, this is just kind of a similar spin on that is like, oh, well, if I'm not, if I'm not sure about how to do it and you got a good plan, let's go with it.

• 1:03:04Jocko Willink?

  Stay humble.

• 1:03:07Jocko Willink?

  People are like weapons. They have capabilities and limitations. You have to know them both. Oh, isn't that nice? Isn't that nice? There's certain times where you need a certain weapon that has a certain range on it. And there's also limitations to that range and you might not want to use that weapon for that particular operation. It's the same thing with human beings.

• 1:03:32Jocko Willink?

  Don't be afraid to learn from others. Straightforward.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  And here's the last, the most lasting Grayism. Do as much good as you can for as many people as you can for as long as you can.

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  Outstanding.

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  And then they have a little sub, sub note here. It says, and a special Grayism for his very special wife, Jan Gray. When asked how he has remained married for so many years, General Gray said, tongue in cheek, you have to choose. You can be right.

• 1:04:11Jocko Willink?

  Or you can be happy.

• 1:04:16Jocko Willink?

  And now we get another interesting excerpt. Fast forward a little bit. They have another interesting excerpt. And this was from Sergeant Robert Jones.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Rob Jones, hell yeah.

• 1:04:30Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Rob Jones.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Oh, the real Rob Jones.

• 1:04:33Jocko Willink?

  Rob Jones.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  We're pulling out all the players here.

• 1:04:35Jocko Willink?

  This is like all our people.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  I did not write this book. Here we go. Rob Jones was still a corporal. And had arrived at Bethesda only a day or two prior to General Gray's first visit to him. Rob was a recent graduate, graduate of Virginia Tech in 2010. He had been serving in Afghanistan as a combat engineer attached to 3rd Battalion, 7th Marines. While he was investigating improvised explosive device, it exploded, leaving Rob a double amputee. But Rob has never seen an unhappy sunrise and he lifts all around him with his optimism and good cheer. We can confirm that.

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  There in his hospital room at Bethesda, Rob was talking quietly with his dad when an unknown but pleasant looking older gentleman in a coat and tie walked in. Hi, I'm Al Gray, the newcomer announced. Rob recalled thinking, do I know this guy? Some pleasant chit chat followed while Al Gray tried to find out everything, if everything was okay with Corporal Jones, if he needed anything, and if the doctors were taking good care of him. Finding nothing amiss. Mr. Gray shook hands with Rob's father and Rob and then handed the wounded warrior a commemorative coin that denoted the 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  Rob studied the coin and then asked, "How long have you had this?" "Oh, probably 20 years or so," replied Al Gray. "Did you really get it from the Commandant?" Asked the disbelieving Rob Jones. "Oh, that's me," chuckled Al Gray in response as he left. And in that way Sergeant Robert R. Jones, United States Marine Corps, joined a mass of others who might say, "Who doesn't know General Al Gray?" Al Gray, Marine forever, continues to do as much as he can, for as many as he can, for as long as he can. They are really words we can all live by, and he does live by. So, there you go, Rob Jones.

• 1:06:34Jocko Willink?

  And I got to trading some texts with Rob Jones and he was like, "He like, like all Marines, kinda like chesty puller, you know who chesty pullers? You also know who Al Gray is." And so he knew who Al Gray was, but he didn't know that that was Al Gray. Cause he was like, and he said to me, I think he sent me a text like I was, I was like, who's, well, I don't know who this old dude is. I've never seen a picture of a 20-year-old, you know, you see a picture of a guy that was 20 years ago when he was, what, probably 60 years old? Now he's 80. And he looks different. And so Rob didn't know what he looked like as an 80-year-old man. So, Rob's like, "It wasn't my finest moment as a Marine."

• 1:07:16Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, "Dude, no one expects you to know what each Commandant looks like when they're older." So, there you go. Close of this section right here, to US Marines. "When General Gray first spoke after assuming command of the United States Marine Corps on 30 June 1987, he spoke at length, paying tribute to his predecessor and longtime personal friend, General PX Kelly. He then turned to the Marines in parade formation representing the entire Marine Corps and said, quote, 'This great nation loves her Corps of Marines. They pray for us, they support us, they fund us.'"

• 1:08:00Jocko Willink?

  They also place a couple of demands on us.

• 1:08:04Jocko Willink?

  The nation demands that you and I and all others like us be a little bit special. The nation demands that we be the best led, the best trained, the best disciplined, particularly self-disciplined force on earth. The nation demands that we teach nothing but winning in battle and in life.

• 1:08:29Jocko Willink?

  We can do that tonight.

• 1:08:32Jocko Willink?

  And by God, you're going to make it happen in the years to come. God bless. And semper fidelis. General Al Gray, Commandant of the Marine Corps, 30 June 1987. So, there you go. Some simple, straightforward, fundamental leadership lessons from one of the most respected

• 1:09:02Jocko Willink?

  leaders.

• 1:09:05Jocko Willink?

  That we've known in this country, for sure. So, there you go.

• 1:09:10Jocko Willink?

  Important, if we're going to be in leadership position, gotta be able to lead ourselves. Yep. And what that means is being smart, being knowledgeable, capturing information, turning that information into context that you can then put into action.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  That's being smart, being knowledgeable. Gotta be healthy, gotta be strong, gotta be strong. Look, we talked about mental fortitude. Yeah. Mental tenacity, mental toughness, gotta have some physical toughness, too. That means we're working out. Yep. We're getting after it, we're training. If you're training, you need fuel. We recommend Jocko Fuel. Hey, go to JacoFuel.com, check it out. We've got all kinds of, we got everything that you need from a, from a physical and mental.

• 1:10:06Jocko Willink?

  Supplementation aspect, we got you covered. So we got energy drinks, we got protein, protein powders, ready to drink protein. We got joint warfare, Time War. Man, I recommend taking Time War. I recommend taking joint warfare. This is, this stuff is, it's, go read the reviews on them. It's awesome. So get this stuff. You can get it at jockofuel.com. You can also get it at Walmart. You can get it at Wawa, Vitamin Shoppe, Military Commissaries, Afees, Hanaford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakefern, ShopRite, HEB down in Texas, Meyer in the Midwest, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, we're now at Publix down in the Southeast, Lifetime

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  Fitness, Shields, small gyms everywhere. So, check it out. If you don't have it in your small gym or your gym, email [email protected], we'll get you. You need good fuel. You need clean fuel to go along with your hard work and your lack of excuses. Go to jockofuel.com, check that out. Also, we're training jiu-jitsu. Look, you can use the ecological approach if you want to. It's fine. It's fine.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  I'm still curious about the ecological approach and when to implement it. Cause I still, I, and I'm, I thought about for a second and I thought, oh, that I don't know how that's a, the best approach, but I was thinking from like zero, from white belt, but I think after a while, it might be very beneficial.

• 1:11:32Jocko Willink?

  And my assessment would be that there are times when it's very beneficial and there's times when you should do it and there's times you should gamify it and there's times where you should put, there's another big thing is they put a, uh, conditional restrictions on what you can and can't, like you're not allowed to do this, but you can do this. Like, so you can set conditions for, to, to learn a certain way. I believe it's a, there's a lot of benefits to it. But there's also a lot of benefits to showing a move and drilling it. Like, so I think you gotta use both. You gotta have an open mind. That's where I'm at.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  I dig it. Yeah, man. So the, you know, situational training.

• 1:12:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Basically, it's essentially a more specific version of that, or a specific like approach to that.

• 1:12:16Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Cause you can be like, oh, you win when you get to their left side or whatever. You can set up all kinds of things.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you just over index on these very specific situations. So now when you're in a full roller competition or whatever, it's like when that situation comes up, you're like, you have so much experience.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yep. And there's like all this, you know, research around the methodology that you learn and how you learn faster by doing than you do from observing. Well, again, to your point, if your count is zero knowledge and you just try and watch and learn, it's going to be much more difficult than when you, it's like when you teach a class to purple belts, they can pick up a new move very quickly compared to white belts who are like, you know, they don't understand anything. So yes, not to get, but I'll give you some videos to watch and you can go down the rabbit, the ecological training rabbit hole if you want to.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Right on.

• 1:13:12Jocko Willink?

  I'll, I'll send you down there. But speaking of jiu jitsu, we're training jiu jitsu. If you're training jiu jitsu, you need jiu jitsu gear. OriginUSA.com. American made gear. American made. By the way, we've always been doing American made gear. Get jiu jitsu gees, get rash guards, get shorts, get everything that you need for jiu jitsu belts. Everything that you need. OriginUSA.com. Also jeans, also t-shirts, also hoodies, also boots. New boots are awesome, by the way.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Yes, I believe so.

• 1:13:44Jocko Willink?

  Do you have a pair yet?

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  No, afraid not.

• 1:13:45Jocko Willink?

  You're just judging off the appearance?

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  From what I see, yeah.

• 1:13:49Jocko Willink?

  They're, they're freaking great. Uh, check it out. OriginUSA.com. We're not using slave labor. We're not paying people, uh, slave wages. We're not got them in sweatshops in dangerous situations. No, we're taking care of our workers who have trades, who are craftsmen.

• 1:14:07Jocko Willink?

  Who are making things happen here in America. Support America, support our manufacturing. We brought manufacturing, I'm bringing it back, we brought it back. We're here, originusa.com, check it out.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  You know, you ever heard of, I forget that, actually, I don't even know the name of it. So I can't ask you if you ever heard of it, but this idea of the company paying their employees with like company credits that they can spend on only company stuff.

• 1:14:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, that was like back in the day.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Indentured servitude, so Origin doesn't pay with Origin credits.

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  No, where you can, you can rent your, yeah, you can use in the vending machine that we own. No, it's not like that.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Okay, cool, cool.

• 1:14:47Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Also, yes, also Jocko's store called Jocko's store, this is where you can get your apparel while you want to, while you're representing Discipline Equals Freedom.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  Or should I say the apparel that represents Discipline Equals Freedom on our journey, on our path, whether you're training jujitsu or just living life, I'm saying, living life on the path. With, along with that comes the, what we call the Shirt Locker. It's a subscription snare, a new design every, every month. Hell, yeah. A little bit outside the box as far as, you know, the, the messages, the designs and stuff, but people seem to like it. Anyway, it's all in Jocko's store.com, check it out, like something, get something.

• 1:15:29Jocko Willink?

  Also, you need steak. Go to primalbeef.com or coloradocraftbeef.com. We got awesome human beings making, producing outstanding steak. Go check out their websites and then get some. You need steak in your life, you need jerky in your life. I just had some teriyaki jerky from Primal Beef, so good, so good. But the only thing that's bad about it is you can kill a bag in like a heartbeat. But yeah, check it out. Then you got the beef sticks. So you go back and forth between beef sticks from Colorado Craft Beef and beef jerky from Primal Beef. But the steaks, simple, it's just what you need. Awesome people, awesome companies, awesome steaks.

• 1:16:13Jocko Willink?

  Also, check out and subscribe to jockounderground.com, which is where we have our own little platform. That way, we don't get controlled by anyone, we can do what we want. So check that out. Also, we got YouTube channels, we got Psychological Warfare, we got a bunch of books, I've written a bunch of books, adult books.

• 1:16:35Jocko Willink?

  Adult leadership books. Yeah. When I say adult books, there always people, it's a weird thing to say. Well, if you see about leadership.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  If you see a store in the corner.

• 1:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Yes, adult books. So yeah, it's not, I don't write that kind of books. My books are not in there. I, I write books. Some of my books are for adults and some of them are for children. The adult books, there's no way around this.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  No, just say kids books and.

• 1:16:59Jocko Willink?

  And books. Alright, so I've written a bunch of books. Some of them are kids books.

• 1:17:04Jocko Willink?

  So check them out. The kids books are awesome. They're getting turned into a movie. The movie has been filmed. It's wrapped, as they say. It is in post-production at this time.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Jocko Willink?

  So the movie is called Way of the Warrior Kid, but it's gonna, it takes a while for these things to come out, but you don't have to wait. You can just go buy the series. Way of the Warrior Kid. Check that out. Also, we have a leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. All the problems that you have in your life are leadership problems. All the problems that you have in your business are leadership problems. All problems are leadership problems. And you solve those problems through leadership. And luckily, leadership is a skill that you can learn. We just learned some from General Al Gray.

• 1:17:46Jocko Willink?

  We teach leadership principles to you. Go to esalenfront.com if you need us inside your organization, or if you want to come to one of our events, next big event we've got. We've got the battlefield. We're gonna go walk the Gettysburg battlefield. You, you heard from JD today. You're gonna hear from JD at the battlefield. It's freaking outstanding. Go listen to the Civil War podcast I did with him and then come to the battlefield with us and walk the battlefield at Gettysburg. Learn those lessons. We also have the muster coming up. April 29th through May 1st in San Antonio, Texas. Where we have an intensive leadership course. You can bring people in your company, get your whole team aligned.

• 1:18:27Jocko Willink?

  Check those out. Eshlonfront.com. We also have the Extreme Ownership Academy where we teach these principles online.

• 1:18:35Jocko Willink?

  Bunch of courses you can take. There's a couple of free courses. Just check the free ones out. You don't have to buy anything. Go get the free courses. Learn them. They'll be so helpful in everything that you do. Extreme ownership.com. Check that out. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families. Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee, she's an incredible woman. She started an incredible organization after we lost Mark, after she lost Mark, after we lost Mark. First SEAL killed in Iraq, just an incredible human being. And what did she do? She turned it into something awesome, something good. And that is America's Mighty Warriors.org, where she helps out so many veterans and so many people. Check that out if you want to donate, or you want to get involved. Also, check out Heroes and

• 1:19:20Jocko Willink?

  Horses.org. And finally, Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. And if you want to connect with us, I'm at Jaco.com. I'm also on social media, @JacoWillink. Echo is at Echo Charles. Just be careful, because the algorithm will kill you. It'll take all your time, and you'll end up with nothing. So don't let that happen. Also, thanks to all our uniformed personnel out there with a solemn salute to our Marines, the few and the proud. You set an outstanding standard, and we are thankful for your service and sacrifice. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs,

• 1:20:04Jocko Willink?

  dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first responders. Thank you for protecting us here at home. And to everyone else out there, from General Al Gray, 29th Commandant of the United States Marine Corps, words to live by. Take what you get. Make what you want. Take what you get. Make what you want. And that's all I've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko, out.