OnePlus' CEO Pete Lau doesn't think folding phones are good enough

At CES 2020, The Verge's Nilay Patel and Dieter Bohn sat down with OnePlus CEO Pete Lau in his first podcast appearance to talk about the OnePlus concept phone with a disappearing camera as well as his thoughts on newer technologies in the smartphone world, like 5G and folding phones. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:57Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. Today on The Vergecast, we have OnePlus CEO Pete Lau. Pete sat down with us last week at the Consumer Electronics Show. And by us, I mean myself. I'm Dieter Bone and Neelai Patel, who usually hosts the interview show. He sat down right after he had unveiled a concept phone that he had made. It was a OnePlus Concept One McLaren Edition, and it had this special glass that was able to dynamically cover up the cameras if you wanted to. Just a concept, but still really interesting to talk about. We also talked about a bunch of other stuff. We got into his feelings about folding phones and also 5G. It was a really fun conversation. And one thing I'll point out is that Pete is not a native English speaker, so we spoke to him through an interpreter. And he said it was his very first podcast ever, which, you know, made me feel really special. Anyway, great conversation.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  One of the first podcasts we're going to bring you from CES amongst a bunch more that are coming, so check it out.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Pete Lau is the CEO of OnePlus. Welcome.

• 1:53Nilay Patel?

  Thank you.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  And your interpreter Eric Goss is here, so hello.

• 1:57Speaker 04

  Hey, everyone. Thank you.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  So you're probably going to be hearing more of Eric's voice, but we're actually asking the questions to Pete, so we're going to start. And Dieter is here as well.

• 2:05Nilay Patel?

  Hey, how's it going?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  So, Dieter, you've already played with the OnePlus Concept Phone here at CES, and you've got a bunch of questions about it. But first, Pete, just tell us about it. Tell us about the glass in the back that changes tints to hide the cameras. Why did you decide to make a phone like this?

• 2:18Speaker 05

  这个是我们第一次在这个行业里面的一个

• 2:22Speaker 04

  For OnePlus, the OnePlus Concept 1 represents a first bold exploration for us in terms of delivering a concept phone and for what the future form factor of a smartphone could look like. And what's particularly exciting about this is there's an electrochromic glass panel in the back that can hide the cameras. So the way that works is when charged, the electrochromic panel is opaque and the camera modules underneath, three of them in this case, are hidden. And what this is exciting for is in the future with the potential for more and more camera modules and we've already seen some of this in the industry, added to a device, this technology has the potential for all those modules to be hidden

• 3:06Speaker 04

  and to create a very clean uninterrupted design on the back of the smartphone device. We've seen that different players in the industry are trying to look at ways for the camera modules to be organized or hidden. So this is something that's definitely on the minds of people in the industry. But what's exciting about it is again, the camera modules are visible when they're in use and otherwise they can remain hidden.

• 3:30Nilay Patel?

  So is the point of the technology primarily about design? Or is there some other features that it can offer the user?

• 3:36Speaker 05

  我觉得这个美好的设计一直是宜家的

• 3:39Speaker 04

  So for us, delivering beautiful design in our products is at the core of what we try to do in everything that we create. And we see it as something that's very important in the eyes of users and something that we want to try to push towards the absolute limit in what OnePlus creates. But what's exciting here is this isn't only a demonstration of potentially different design for a smartphone, there's the additional functionality addition of an in-the-filter within the smartphone device. And so that adds additional functionality in combination with distinct new design.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  And the ND filter right now is in the Pro section of the camera app. Do you think that that is something that the mass consumer market needs to use as well?

• 4:22Speaker 05

  我觉得这个是一个很好的一个反馈，因为我们

• 4:24Speaker 04

  It's a great question. And it's been really interesting to see the response around it because it's larger than we would have expected. And I think with that, it will also bring an education to more and more potential users. So it will be something that more and more users find out about and then want to test out and see it potentially play with. And for us, it also shows us that this is an area that we can focus further on in terms of refining and creating greater functionality within the device.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Why did you choose to unveil this at the Consumer Electronics Show?

• 4:56Speaker 05

  这个是我们六年来第一次

• 4:58Speaker 04

  This is a change for us. It's a first time for us to create a concept device. And what we hope to do is to be able to show what we're working on and what we're exploring at an earlier stage and be able to show that to both media but also users. And the response is super valuable. We expected that and it's been probably even more than we could have thought. So that's something that we want to be able to continue doing. And that feedback, that information, helps guide us in terms of delivering the most optimal user experience and value for users in what we might be exploring.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  The reason I asked about CES is we see a lot of concepts at this show. And some of them are, someday we'll have flying cars. And some of them are, we actually intend to make a product like this relatively soon. And I'm wondering, on that spectrum, where does this phone land?

• 5:49Speaker 05

  就我们所有做的这些

• 5:51Speaker 04

  For us, our approach in exploration is looking at features and functionality and an exploration that we hope can ultimately be efforts that can come to life and be beneficial for all consumers. So with this specifically, this technology, a lot of it has been in development for quite a while. And from a Material perspective is close to a state of being ready for the market, but there's still a significant amount of testing and validation that needs to be done on the overall device holistically and all of the hardware and software functionality together to get it up to the standard that we want before we would launch it for consumers,

• 6:35Speaker 04

  in the case of the concept phone specifically.

• 6:38Nilay Patel?

  Is this gonna come to a consumer phone?

• 6:42Speaker 04

  I believe it will.

• 6:43Nilay Patel?

  It was more like a yes.

• 6:47Nilay Patel?

  He said, definitely said yes.

• 6:51Speaker 04

  What's also awesome about this is there's been a lot of feedback of additional ideas for what the functionality of the glass or the smartphone could be. So that gives us even more confidence and more excitement in trying to apply what we've been working on here into products that can go into the hands of consumers.

• 7:08Nilay Patel?

  So I asked her questions on Twitter and we have some from the audience. It strikes me this is branded with McLaren and one of the questions we got was why do smartphone companies and car companies co-brand products so much? What do both sides get out of that arrangement?

• 7:25Speaker 04

  In looking at this concept device specifically and the partnership with McLaren, the electrochromic glass actually comes from the inspiration of their car, the 720S and its sunroof. And so when we had the idea of potentially applying this to the phone, that's something that was brought into discussions with them and able to hear their suggestions and feedback onto how or what it could mean for the smartphone device. And then the development happened on the OnePlus side.

• 7:51Nilay Patel?

  Did any engineers from McLaren help you develop this product?

• 7:56Speaker 04

  More for inspiration and input on overall design and application of materials, which did come from the engineering side. So then it was the engineering side hearing their recommendations per the glass material and the leather material, which is also from the smartphone, or sorry, from the car, and how that could be integrated into the device and then developed from the OnePlus side. And what we see with this device is in your hand, it feels very complete. It's very much a concept device that we've approached in trying to create something that looks and feels and is very complete. And part of that is the input that they had on the application of the leather and then the hand stitching of the leather on the back and the way that that then feels in the hand, it's distinctly different.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  This is a weird one. I heard you spent 18 months developing this. That's a big investment in R and D for what seems like a small feature. Are there other ideas that were left on the cutting room floor because they weren't worth 18 months of investment? Are there other wacky ideas that you're like, no, we don't need to try that?

• 8:58Speaker 05

  这个在研发里面肯定是

• 9:00Speaker 04

  For the R and D teams, this is part of just their process of work. There are ideas, exploration, some are continued, some are put aside and maybe reconsidered. Some are just canceled and abandoned. And a good example of this is the 90 Hz refresh rate display on the 7 Pro. That's something that was brought to life with the launch in May of last year. But the actual research and development on that started three years ago. So a lot of time before the technology comes to market, there's already research, exploration, and then eventually that new tech being brought to life.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  There are a couple of concepts, staying in the realm of concepts, that other companies are doing. And I'm thinking specifically of folding phones. Is there, do you think that that's silly? Do you think it's not ready yet?

• 9:49Speaker 05

  可折叠的这个就是我们放弃的一个

• 9:52Speaker 04

  Foldable is actually an example of something that we have looked into but not pursued, as we were just asking about in the last question. And that's because in looking into the application of what's currently available for foldable screen technology, we haven't found the significant advantage or value that's brought that isn't outweighed by the shortcomings or the disadvantages of the current state of the technology.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  What do you think has to change about the technology to change that ratio?

• 10:24Speaker 04

  One point to focus on here in response to the question. If you look at the fold in the current foldable technology devices, it's very large and not very clean or a very crisp fold. And that also currently results in a lot of screen creasing or issues with where the fold is in the screen. So this isn't something that I can accept in products that are built. Only when the technology is able to get to the level where that fold can be really crisp and not impact the screen at where the fold happens is when it can be potentially usable or potentially applicable.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  I just want you to know, if you're listening to this, Pete, Pete just like straight up folded a CES badge in half.

• 11:07Speaker 04

  Saying that with the curve at this side, you can't see it, but if it's not a very clean curve,

• 11:13Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 11:13Speaker 04

  then the fold, if the fold isn't clean, it can't be acceptable and what's seen.

• 11:18Nilay Patel?

  Have you looked at some of the other strategies where instead of the big curve, the screen actually moves in and out? I think the Motorola Razr, the screen actually moves. When you fold it, the screen actually pulls up so it can make that tighter fold. Is that something you consider?

• 11:31Speaker 05

  He actually just like this.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  Just to showcase that the Motorola fold is different in that it's from, I guess, top to bottom

• 11:40Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 04

  versus left to right. But what Pete's saying is that the fold is still not a clean crease.

• 11:46Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 11:47Speaker 04

  To the degree that he would want and a product that he would make. So even though their application is slightly different, it's still facing that same challenge for the actual fold part, including the screen material itself. Because it's a plastic material, its ability to have the scratch resistance of glass just isn't there yet either.

• 12:06Nilay Patel?

  So it seems like for many years with OnePlus, we've been talking about cameras. Obviously, every year, more cameras to get put on the flagship phones. Are you thinking that you need to spend more time improving the core camera tech? You need to add more lenses. How is that competition shaping out as you compete with the flagship phones, but maintain your price advantage?

• 12:24Speaker 05

  Uh, we uh, in China.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  For us, imaging is an area that we've focused very strongly on historically and one that we're making very large investments into. I'm not of the perspective that more cameras equals better, but I do see that camera functionality can potentially be improved by certain new camera technology that's integrated into the device, which sometimes is requiring an additional camera sensor to be added. But for example, five cameras on a device. I mean, Pete was questioning, like, I'm not sure if that's what makes sense right now. But definitely for a focus on software and camera algorithms, that's an area that we will continue focusing on for improvement.

• 13:09Nilay Patel?

  So the algorithm side, obviously computational photography, Google is doing its HDR, Apple's doing its HDR, they're spending a lot of money. On the software side of how the camera works, is that something that you can compete with? Is it something that you have to make a different kind of investment in as you make the next generation of cameras?

• 13:27Speaker 04

  We will have our own approach. We definitely are very much taking a approach of large investment into both camera team and the focus on software and algorithms. We have a large imaging team in Taipei, in Taiwan. And more than that, we're working with partners who are the best of the best in terms of imaging and algorithms. And so from our perspective, not everything can be done to the absolute best just ourselves. We need to work with the best in the industry. So that's how we're taking our own approach and taking our own approach with partnership to camera aspects like HDR, as you mentioned, and other functionality.

• 14:08Nilay Patel?

  So one of the reasons I asked is electrochromatic glass is expensive, camera sensors are expensive, developing your own algorithms, the big team in Taipei is expensive. But historically OnePlus has managed to be very, very price competitive. Prices are starting to creep up. Is there a ceiling of how expensive a flagship OnePlus phone would be? Do you think we'd ever see like a thousand dollar OnePlus phone?

• 14:31Speaker 04

  The trend in the industry is that with more performance and more functionality for devices, it's increasing the prices for everyone. So for smartphones to continue increasing in prices, including ours, is definitely not out of the realm of impossibility. What we want to take as an approach is making sure that we create the best possible product for all users everywhere and still have what keeps OnePlus unique in our sort of model of business that doesn't focus so much on traditional marketing or where companies might have traditionally very large expenditures. And that makes us more efficient.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  And those operational model advantages are then able to be passed on as savings to consumers at the end of the day.

• 15:18Nilay Patel?

  Speaking of models, in the US, a lot of big phone makers hold themselves to one or two big phone releases a year. With the OnePlus 7, I think there's six versions, depending on how you count it. There's the 7, the 7 Pro, the 7 Pro 5G, the 7T, the 7T Pro, and the 7T Pro 5G McLaren Edition. Why do you release so many different iterations of your phones?

• 15:42Speaker 05

  其实我们的这个

• 15:44Speaker 04

  If we look at it actually from device SKU count, we should be the very lowest in the whole industry. In 2019, though, we launched a Pro line for the first time, which for OnePlus is an exploration of the absolute possible limits of technology and what that can bring for consumers in the Pro products. That did add an additional SKU or SKUs to our lineup. And in addition to that, 2019 is also a transitionary year of 4G to 5G, which also adds kind of a complication in additional SKUs of products. But that's something that every manufacturer has faced. So for every manufacturer that's released 5G products,

• 16:25Speaker 04

  it's added additional SKUs for the creation of those products and their capabilities.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Do you think you'll stick with, do you like the sort of number? And then you have the T variant that comes a little bit later, that sort of TikTok strategy? Does that feel like the right cadence to you of releases?

• 16:43Speaker 04

  This can potentially change in the future, especially when we're looking at transition to 5G and our company growing and having more partners and more channels to work with. But what won't change is us always trying to deliver the very best and the very latest in what's available. That's at the principle of our approach in timing and in what's best fitting for the circumstances of the world and the market and the smartphone industry at the time. So that's what will remain consistent.

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• 18:19Nilay Patel?

  So I definitely want to talk about 5G. We'll do that in a minute. It's all I want to talk about. I've got a million questions, but two very popular questions from our audience on Twitter. Phones are getting bigger. 5G phones keep getting bigger. Do you ever think about making another smaller phone?

• 18:34Speaker 05

  我觉得这个小怎么定义？

• 18:35Speaker 04

  I think it has to go back to how we look at. I think we need to look at how small is defined. From my perspective, Pete's saying it's the ability for the device to really fit in the hand and for the hand to really be able to wrap around it. So the width of the device matters a lot there. And can't go into details, but we can say that there will be an exploration from OnePlus that we can all look forward to on this front.

• 18:59Nilay Patel?

  Will that exploration have a headphone jack?

• 19:02Speaker 04

  No.

• 19:03Nilay Patel?

  You don't even need a transatlantic question. It's like, no, Neel, I know, absolutely not. I know what you're saying. And then by far, the number one question people ask me on Twitter. Well, it's two parts. Why no wireless charging in these phones?

• 19:17Speaker 05

  因为我们的快充太优秀了.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  Because our wired charging is too good.

• 19:22Nilay Patel?

  Wow. Bold.

• 19:24Speaker 05

  当然我们也是在...

• 19:25Speaker 04

  What we've been focused on is bringing fast wireless charging and that fast charging experience to wireless. The issue to overcome, though, is the heat in that process. So that's very much what we've been focused on trying to create a solution for. I've tried 10-matt charging for wireless, and I can't get used to it. I feel like it's too slow and it's just not worth it compared to plugging it into Warp Charge and that fast charging experience.

• 19:50Nilay Patel?

  So it was a short answer and then a long answer. I just want to be clear. Because the Warp Charging answer, this was the second part of my question. People like Warp Charging. They're into it, but they're asking, when will you support USB CPD? Because that's not supported on the phone right now.

• 20:05Speaker 05

  PD, I think this is a兼容.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  The big advantage of Warp is that it's fast without creating a lot of heat on the device. So even under intensive circumstances like gaming, you can still game for hours and not have the issues of heat on the device. The compatibility of PD would create is significant heat on the device, particularly under intensive circumstances like gaming. So that would be the drawback. I'm not totally sure on all of the advantages and disadvantages to the compatibility and what it would mean in terms of increasing costs as well as the difficulty of making it happen. But it's something that we'll continue exploring.

• 20:44Nilay Patel?

  All right, now you gotta ask what. Yeah, I was gonna say. It's time, we're here. I ask everybody this question. We are often told 5G is a race. Do you think it's a race? And if so, why is it a race?

• 20:55Speaker 05

  我，我不认为说是一个比赛。

• 20:57Speaker 04

  I don't see it as a race. I see 5G as a foundational technology and an inevitable transition for the industry, particularly for flagships.

• 21:06Nilay Patel?

  What happens if we come in second in the race? Is it something bad?

• 21:09Speaker 04

  Second meaning?

• 21:10Nilay Patel?

  Well, if it's a race, someone comes in first. I ask everybody the same set of questions. No one tells them it's a race. But I'm always curious, if it is a race, what is the downside of coming in second?

• 21:19Speaker 05

  我认为它不是比赛，是因为它是个。

• 21:22Speaker 04

  I see it as a critical part of being a true flagship. It's foundational and required. So I don't see it as a race. Even though we can be looked at as leading in 5G and coming to the market earliest or very early with products, I don't see it as a race. And you guys have seen that we were the first of smartphones or among the first with the T-Mobile 600 megahertz low-band 5G network.

• 21:47Nilay Patel?

  It's very clear that you think it's not a race, but that you've won the race. That's what I'm getting out of this. So the T-Mobile mid-band, that's their network. There's a lot of millimeter wave action in the world. I don't think anybody yet has both networks lit up and operating at the same time. There's certainly no phone. How do you think of that, those strategies of 5G in the future? Are you going to be able to support them both soon? Are they going to be rivals? Are they going to be complementary? I'm curious for your perspective.

• 22:15Speaker 04

  From my perspective in the long term, there has to be an integration of being able to support both. And that's best for consumers.

• 22:22Nilay Patel?

  How long will that take?

• 22:23Speaker 04

  Hard to say. I would say conservatively, three years. The phones, but the network.

• 22:28Nilay Patel?

  Three years before there's a phone that can support both millimeter wave and 600 megahertz.

• 22:33Speaker 04

  The smartphones will have the capability to support both more quickly. But for, it's hard to speak on behalf of the operators and their plans. But I see that that will take longer for them to have both integrated and lots of coverage.

• 22:49Nilay Patel?

  When you think about making the next generation of phones that can support both, you need radically different antenna designs for the two different systems. What challenges has that presented so far?

• 23:00Speaker 04

  There's definitely challenges on the design front. And it brings in higher cost. But that will be able to come down over time.

• 23:10Nilay Patel?

  Okay, so I'm ending every interview by asking a question to CEOs in particular. It's something that I personally want to know because I don't have a good answer for this. When do you work? When do you sit down and actually do work? When do you type on your laptop and write emails? When do you, when do you find that time? Because you're very busy.

• 23:29Nilay Patel?

  Everyone, by the way, starts laughing when I ask this question.

• 23:34Speaker 04

  I don't wake up particularly early. Usually between the range of eight to nine. But I end up going to bed late, usually 12 to 1 or maybe later. And I see myself as always available because we cover markets around the world that cover basically all time zones. So we're always online. Sometimes the US team is waking me up at 2 AM for a meeting. That's the reality.

• 23:57Nilay Patel?

  So that's a lot of complicated problems to solve in areas around the world and markets that you serve. How are you organized to operate?

• 24:04Speaker 02

  That way, how is OnePlus organized to serve all those markets and needs?

• 24:07Speaker 05

  我是我是觉得就我们

• 24:09Speaker 04

  For us, it goes back to a focus on making the best possible product and offering that to all markets. What I believe in is that every market around the world has a consistency in wanting a great product, and great products can be applicable to all markets. I don't believe that products, great products, have barriers in terms of country lines or geographies. So that's what it has to go back to. And Apple's a great example here. They have fans everywhere.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  So do you.

• 24:40Speaker 05

  所以我我们是

• 24:41Speaker 04

  Our product positioning may be different, but there is very much parallels in terms of trying to create the best possible user experience that we can with whatever we do.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm gonna ask one more time. When do you sit down and do your email?

• 24:55Speaker 05

  最近

• 24:56Speaker 04

  I had more morning meetings than before, so I've gotten up a bit earlier to do email. So around that eight o'clock timeframe, get some email done, and then I have the morning meetings.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  I hate this answer because it means I have to start doing that too. Every successful person is waking up early to do their email. I think it's, to me, it's the most fascinating question because everyone is different, but it seems like there's a consistency of answers. So what should OnePlus fans be looking out over the next few months? Last question, what should people be looking for for OnePlus over the next few months?

• 25:25Speaker 04

  I'm always focused on product, so I think people should be excited about what's coming in the future for product and the experiences that that product will bring.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Great. Well, thank you so much. It was great having you. We'll talk to you soon.

• 25:36Speaker 04

  Thanks a lot.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Thanks again to OnePlus CEO Pete Lau for doing his very first ever podcast with us. That makes me feel really special. Thanks especially to his interpreter Eric. And, you know, thanks to Neelai for welcoming me into his house. It was really nice to hang out on the interview show for once. We're gonna have a lot more interview shows this week. Neelai came out to CES and spent the entire time talking to really interesting people about the products that they announced and their plans for the rest of the year. So keep an eye out in the Vergecast feed for all those interviews that are gonna be coming over the next few weeks. But of course, the very next show you're gonna listen to is the chat show, which is gonna hit you on Friday.

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