424. How to ACTUALLY change your bad habits ft. Harvard Behavioural Scientist, Julia Dhar

We all have something about our behaviour or our lives we really want to change. But every time we go to try, we find we lose motivation very quickly and end up back where we started with the behaviour still in tact. Whether it's quitting smoking, exercising more, wanting to eat healthier, sleep better, stop gossiping, be a better partner; bad habits usually all have the same psychology. In today's episode we invited on Harvard-trained behavioural scientist & BCG Managing Director, Julia Dhar, to give us the step by step guide to changing bad habits. We talk about: Where bad habits come from? Why bad habits stick? What's happening in our brain when we can't quit a bad habit? The 3 principles of behaviour change you need to know to change How to help OTHERS change when they don't want to? Why your approach to failing will determine if you're successful Plus much more! Happy listening! Buy Julia's book here: How Change Really Works https://www.bcg.com/capabilities/people-strategy/how-change-really-works Watch her TedTalk here: How to Disagree Productively https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phgjouv0BUA Watch on Netflix: HERE https://netflix.com/thepsychologyofyour20s Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s https://substack.com/@thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 2:38Jemma Sbeg?

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• 3:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.

• 3:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode as we, of course, break down the psychology of our 20s. Today's conversation is one that I've been wanting to have for a very long time. Because if there is something... I would say all of us, if not a lot of us, struggle with in our twenties. It is this constant cycle of trying to become better, trying to break patterns, trying to stop doing things we know we shouldn't be doing and just somehow always ending back where we started. Whether it is procrastination, whether it is phone addiction, vaping, drinking.

• 4:10Jemma Sbeg?

  I think we've all had a moment, I've definitely had a moment where I've been like, this is the last time I'm ever doing this. I'm quitting, I'm done, I'm gonna become this disciplined, motivated person and it just doesn't work. I don't think the problem is with us, if I'm being honest. I think the problem is that we actually misunderstand the psychology behind why and how change actually works. So today, we are gonna do a deep dive into the science and the psychology behind changing bad habits. Not like a surface level plan, we're gonna go beyond discipline, we're gonna go beyond the basic advice and really get into it. And we are bringing on a special guest for this episode.

• 4:53Jemma Sbeg?

  She is a Harvard trained behavioral scientist. She specializes in studying how change works. She's a managing director at BCG. She's the founder of the BCG Behavioral Science Lab. This woman basically spends her entire day systematically breaking down human behavior. She's also done some amazing TED Talks, some of which have been viewed over eight million times. She's written books. She has a new book coming out. She's written for Harvard Business Review, Forbes. There's just so much that she's done. And she is a fellow Australian. Julia Dahl, welcome to the psychology of your twenties.

• 5:26Speaker 05

  Gemma, thanks for having me.

• 5:27Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm so excited. Um, well, okay, I'm gonna, I always do this where I just jump into a question. The first question I need to ask though is, who are you? Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I know I did like the resume rundown, but in your own words, who are you?

• 5:43Speaker 05

  Well, you know exactly where I'm from now, and now so do your viewers and listeners. I grew up in Australia and one of the important things to know about me is after I was born in Byron Bay and then moved to Canberra. I became a debater. I was a debate kid. And so you might know this, but for anyone who doesn't, think about competitive debate as we have a big topic or a big question on the table. There are two sides to the issue. One team talks for it, one team speaks against it. And you go back and forth exchanging these ideas. And I share that as a starting point to say, that's where I became, I think, that was the first moment where I said, oh, different people are different.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  Like often people believe really profoundly different things or behave totally differently in response to the same information. And I think that starting point in lots of classrooms in Australia actually got me thinking about, who are we really as people? Like, what do we want? What do we want to be?

• 6:45Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. That's so interesting. And so like from when you were a teenager, you were like, human behavior is just so fascinating to me. Is that, is that what you're saying?

• 6:52Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so one of the ways we say it is different people are different. But another way to say it is, other people are so weird.

• 7:00Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 7:01Speaker 05

  Everyone else is so strange. And what you say, it might be quite interesting, it might be quite helpful to start to understand them. Which, when I went to university and then eventually came to the United States to go to graduate school, I was scratching over and over again at this question of, you know, what is with other people?

• 7:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 7:21Speaker 05

  And of course, people who are saying to themselves, what is with other people? There's usually something else going on there. What they really mean is, what's the deal with me? Who am I? What do I really want? And I think that was the case for me.

• 7:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh my god, really?

• 7:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Did you, so you went to the University of Sydney?

• 7:37Speaker 05

  I sure did.

• 7:38Jemma Sbeg?

  Which is where I recently lived and have a fond place in my heart. What did you study at U-Sid? You studied?

• 7:44Speaker 05

  Economics and social science.

• 7:46Jemma Sbeg?

  Economics and social, same as me.

• 7:47Speaker 05

  And I wrote my thesis, my undergraduate thesis, on the economics of the luxury fashion industry. Like, why do people buy? Why do people get attached emotionally to some brands and not others? And that felt really, really meaningful to me at the time.

• 8:02Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 05

  You look surprised.

• 8:03Jemma Sbeg?

  No, I'm just like that. You've you've set me off.

• 8:06Speaker 05

  Let's do it.

• 8:07Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, no, I was like, oh, I could just go on like such a tangent of like asking you about this because we've just done like all these episodes on like the psychology of personal style and microtrends. And I've been reading so much about fashion psychology recently.

• 8:19Speaker 05

  Do you know about enclosed cognition?

• 8:21Jemma Sbeg?

  I do.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  I promise to make this a small tangent.

• 8:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, I do, but you have to tell everybody else about about it. We've talked about it on a recent episode, basically how what you wear actually influences your emotions.

• 8:30Speaker 05

  That's exactly right. Enclosed cognition is one of these tiny psychological concepts. And the best way to understand it is what you wear influences how you think. So not just what do other people think about you, but how you think. And so one way to think about it is perhaps if I'm wearing a very formal suits, that might lead me to be more structured in my thinking, for example, or more rigorous. If I'm dressed really casually, perhaps that makes me more creative, more open, more expansive. Did it change what you decided to wear?

• 9:02Jemma Sbeg?

  Well, I'm actually looking at our outfits and people who are watching on Netflix will see we're basically wearing a version of the exact same outfit.

• 9:07Speaker 05

  It is true. I thought that too.

• 9:09Jemma Sbeg?

  I know, I saw you walk in and I was like, great choices. But I'm like, that's so interesting because obviously we're set, we've like emotionally set up for the same conversation.

• 9:17Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 9:18Jemma Sbeg?

  Which is nice.

• 9:18Speaker 05

  Machining. I love that.

• 9:20Jemma Sbeg?

  We've got a nice, like, we've got a nice crisp kind of nice white top, but not like overly formal. A nice slacks situation, but like comfy and then cute.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  Creative shoes.

• 9:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Literally creative fun shoes.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Oh, we're ready to do this.

• 9:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, my gosh. Wait, can I ask you one more question about your thesis that you did?

• 9:37Speaker 05

  Please.

• 9:37Jemma Sbeg?

  What was like the most, the thing that when you found out or when you discovered you just couldn't stop telling people about why people buy luxury or why we make certain fashion or purchasing choices?

• 9:48Speaker 05

  I think the thing is that people who choose to buy luxury goods or to buy one brand over another, it's not because they feel a connection with the brand. It is because having it, owning the thing, is a part of who they are. And one of the ways you know that is, and you know, people in your life who, for example, might buy luxury fashion and never wear it. But they have it and they know that they have it. And so it feels very much like a part of their identity, part of who they are as a person or how they relate to one another, how they relate to the world.

• 10:28Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh my goodness. See, I have a friend who's like this, who, and I, she bought this like beautiful bag for herself last year. She works so hard. And I, I asked her the other day, I was like, why do you never bring that out? She's like, it's a bit too flashy. But I feel like it for her, it was like, well, I've, I've gotten to this point where this is like a marker of success for women or for people that I know. So I have to participate, but then it also feels like contrary to my deeper identity. This is so fascinating.

• 10:53Speaker 05

  It's not quite me. That's so interesting.

• 10:55Jemma Sbeg?

  Also, I'm like thinking about what I'm wearing that I need to move on. Like you can see, and I'm, I'm wearing like all one brand. And I, when you were saying that, I was like, oh my gosh. I just thought I really liked their clothes.

• 11:06Speaker 05

  I'm that person. Yeah.

• 11:07Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, but maybe it's what they represent.

• 11:09Speaker 05

  Could be.

• 11:10Jemma Sbeg?

  Wow. Okay. Let's actually talk about what we, what I've brought you.

• 11:14Speaker 05

  What we came here to talk about.

• 11:15Jemma Sbeg?

  Which is not, which we need to bring you back to just talk about fashion psychology.

• 11:18Speaker 05

  Anytime.

• 11:19Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, let's talk about bad habits and where bad habits come from.

• 11:26Speaker 05

  A good starting point might be to say, there are no bad habits. Or perhaps it's not very helpful to call something a bad habit and just condemn it right off the bat. Of course, there are habits that are more or less destructive or damaging to our health. And or our relationships or the way we show up in the world. But even then, just saying this is a bad habit is maybe not very helpful. But what we can assume when someone says, ah, I have a bad habit, beeping, not eating as healthily as I would like, not exercising. As often as I might want to. What they mean is there is something about the way I operate that I want to change.

• 12:08Speaker 05

  So where do they come from? Well, one of my favorite things about the work that I do is I spend a lot of time talking to people about changing. So not just change, but how do I get better at changing? And part of it is, we're not totally sure psychologically about change. People have really different reactions when you say, do you want to change? If you say to someone, would you like to be better? Almost everyone says, yeah, that's what I'm here to do. I'm trying to be better. So what's preventing us? What's getting in the way of us actually being better? There are basically three things, and they are environmental, tactical and relational.

• 12:52Speaker 05

  So an environmental cause of a bad habit might be something really basic, like I live very far away from a place where I could safely exercise. I don't have good quality access to healthy food that's affordable.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  A relational one might be I have a set of friends who, when I go out with them, the night kind of spins out of control.

• 13:15Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  Very good example of a relational one. And a tactical one might be, I just haven't set myself up in quite the right way. And so Katie Milkman at Wharton, the University of Pennsylvania, has a great set of research on how do we create the tactical conditions for us to be healthier, be better versions of ourselves. And the most basic version of it is, do I put my gym shoes, do I put my trainers by the door before I go to bed at night? So then when I wake up, it's like, whoa, my sneakers are right there. I don't have to look around for all of the clothes, shoes I need in order to go and exercise. So I've created the right tactics for that to happen. Where someone has a habit that they are seeking to change, part of it is saying, like,

• 14:02Speaker 05

  let's diagnose what's really going wrong here. Have I got an environmental gap? Do I have a relational gap or a set of relationships that are maybe taking me to places that I don't necessarily want to go?

• 14:14Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:14Speaker 05

  Or do I not, just not have the right tactics? I want to read more, but I never have a book handy. I want to exercise more, but it seems like my clothes are always in the laundry. These are things we can change relatively quickly.

• 14:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. I love the, I love this way of thinking about it. When does it become a motivational problem? And when does it become maybe something bigger than all those things that like environment, tactics, you know, people can't change?

• 14:44Speaker 05

  Yeah. I think one of the really dangerous things that can come from spending a lot of time thinking about your own psychology is assuming that anytime you don't live up to your own expectations, that's a problem of discipline or motivation. I'm just not disciplined enough, I'm too lazy to be able to do the thing that I want to do. And if instead you said to yourself, look, discipline and motivation, these are really finite. Psychologists would say they're cognitively very expensive to maintain. It takes a lot of effort to keep our goals and objectives at the very front of our minds.

• 15:25Speaker 05

  And so if we can push ourselves a little bit beyond that and instead say, what we should actually be trying to build all of the time is self-efficacy. And I continue to think that self-efficacy is just one of the most under-loved concepts in all of psychology. And you of course know this, but if anyone needed a quick definition, self-efficacy is basically your belief in your own capabilities, that if an obstacle comes up, you, your level of confidence that you will figure out a way around it, that you already have or could quickly acquire the resources and to solve it. Are you a Ted Lasso viewer?

• 16:09Jemma Sbeg?

  You are, are you my favorite person? Yes, of course I am a Ted Lasso viewer. I'm a multi, I am a multi-watch viewer. Have you watched, wait, sorry, no, yes, talk to me about Ted Lasso.

• 16:19Speaker 05

  So in the, in the very first season of Ted Lasso, there's a great line where Rebecca says to Ted, do you believe in ghosts, Ted? And he says, you know, I do. But most of all, I just want them to believe in themselves. And I think that's what self-efficacy is. It's people believing in themselves, but also being surrounded by people who want them to believe in themselves. And so if instead of saying, oh, I'm too lazy, I'm not disciplined enough, you can say, do I actually have the self-efficacy that I need? And you can also increase your own self-efficacy just by thinking about it.

• 16:54Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, this, the example I always think of with self-efficacy is somebody who's trying to quit drinking, right? And if you go into the pub or you go into the bar and you already are thinking, well, if I wanna have a drink, I can't say no, or like, will I be able to say no? Will I be able to not do that? Will I be able to cope with not drinking tonight? And you don't have any backup plan, you have no belief that you'll be able to, like, you've kind of already lost. And that's the same with any kind of behavioral change, right? If you already are counting yourself out, if you're already like letting kind of doubts seep in, uh, I think that shows that like self-efficacy kind of needs strengthening.

• 17:32Speaker 05

  It needs a boost. And you've, as soon as you've started this negotiation with yourself, exactly, perhaps I will just have one or I'll wait for someone to ask me, you're not taking a second to remind yourself, you know, I've done a lot of difficult things before.

• 17:47Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 17:47Speaker 05

  Um, I have overcome a lot of obstacles before, and if I can spend a moment bringing those to the forefront of my mind, perhaps even writing them down or talking to someone about them, both of which we know make a really big difference in your goal attainment. But even if I can just remind myself mentally, I've overcome very difficult things before, our chance of success goes way up.

• 18:07Jemma Sbeg?

  I love that. We talk about that a lot of like, uh, I think you actually talk about it in your book of like setting, what was it, like an early win?

• 18:14Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 18:15Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 05

  Um, and the idea that you can in very positive ways trick yourself into change is extremely compelling to me. And the, they, a couple of really easy tricks. One is just reminding yourself of hard things that you have done before. Or, for example, you're thinking about how might I exercise much more regularly? Let's say that you have got, you're still in your home and you've got as far as putting your shoes on, even just saying to yourself, wow, I'm twenty percent of the way there now. Like, I've got my shoes on, I've got a podcast queued up, I'm about to like walk out the door, and basically more or less done. We call that the endowed progress effect, that you have an amount of progress that you've already achieved.

• 19:01Speaker 05

  All of these actually are just the tiniest of little nudges that move you towards becoming the person you wanna be.

• 19:07Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 05

  I love these.

• 19:08Jemma Sbeg?

  I really wanna talk about those in a second, a little bit more. But something that I've obviously skipped over is why do we even end up in these places? Why do we end up with a habit that is making us unhappy and making us suffer? Whether that is like, why do I end up in the habit of being with people who aren't nice to me, even though I know the outcome? Why do I end up in the habit of drinking too much, even though I know I feel bad? Or, you know, not committing to things, even though I know that they're gonna make me feel better? Can you kind of explain how we end up at this point where we know we need behavioural change, but we, uh, now we're struggling to do it?

• 19:43Speaker 05

  And then you get by yourself for a second and you say, what is wrong with me?

• 19:47Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:48Speaker 05

  And then you kind of ask yourself, what is wrong with me? And you say, well, I don't, actually don't really know. Like, I don't have good explanations, but I know I don't wanna be in where I am. So we have some good thoughts about why, um, it might be the case. Um, a really important one is identity salience. So we all wear, like, so many hats, so many versions of ourselves. We are different at work than we are at home, we're different with some friends than we are others. And you can think about these as not totally different people, but they're like different versions, um, of Julia, different versions of Gemma that people experience. And that's normal, it can be really healthy. But often when we find ourselves in a situation or a relationship or an environment,

• 20:32Speaker 05

  or a job, by the way, that we don't wanna be in, it is because there is some part of our identity that that is really important to us, even if we haven't properly excavated or understood it. Like, if I became single, I don't know who I would be, for example. Or I have only ever had this job, so it is impossible for me to imagine having another one. So I can't quit, so I stay trapped in a job that I know makes me unhappy, for example. And so really doing two things. One is press yourself, uh, so what's the part of my identity that is really coming to the forefront here?

• 21:16Speaker 05

  Including, I'm part of this friend group. And if, for example, I didn't go out with this friend group on a certain night, maybe there would never be my friends again, and then I would never have any more friends for the rest of my life. So one is pressed, like, what's the part of our identity that we're really protecting? And how true is that? Is it possible that I could not be happy as a single person? Is it possible that there's any other job in the universe that might be meaningful or satisfying to me? And then the second is actually to look back a little bit. And we call this in psychology, the end of history illusion. Daniel Gilbert and others at Harvard University pioneered this, which is it's difficult for us to imagine

• 21:59Speaker 05

  that we will change a lot in the future for most of us. We think this is a finished product. But if you ask us to look back, especially earlier in our lives, you say, well, I'm twenty six now. If I look back until I to the time when I was sixteen and ask myself, am I different? You say, oh, my gosh, I'm basically a different person in so many ways. And so I can also, it's actually likely that I'll be very different in the future. And so being able to do a little bit of that prospection and imagine that future Julia could be a totally different person, happy in a totally different set of circumstances. And that by making some different choices now, we could actually be doing something very kind

• 22:44Speaker 05

  for that future version of ourselves, even if it's hard to do it for the present version of ourselves.

• 22:49Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I love thinking that way, actually. I I think about that a lot, where I'm just like, wow, isn't it amazing that the time's gonna pass anyways? And in one year, like a year in your twenties is like five years everywhere else. I do, I fully believe that, like so much can change.

• 23:05Speaker 05

  Um, I love what you said, though, by the way, which is the time is going to pass anyway.

• 23:09Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 05

  That's true. The time is gonna pass anyway. Someone is going to get this opportunity that you may or may not raise your hand for. And there's a set of relationships, friendship, romantic, professional that are available to you if you put yourself out there. The time is going to pass anyway. Um, and so you might as well take a chance, take a risk. And the returns on that risk taking in your twenties are so. Much higher than through the rest of your life.

• 23:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, or like tomorrow, yeah, you may only have been eating healthy for twenty four hours, or you may only have not, you know, vaped or smoked for for tw- for twenty four hours, but then in three days, it's gonna be seventy two hours. And then suddenly it's gonna be six months. And it's like, well, the time is passing anyways. And like, every, all you have to do was be present in that moment and not or do the thing that you said you were gonna do and you have this whole new life. So they're very interesting. This is a question I I like have highlighted on my question list that I really wanna ask you. I am sure a lot of us have heard about the magic number that it takes ninety days to break a bad habit. This is a very like viral idea. Is that true?

• 24:20Speaker 05

  No, I don't know exactly how long it takes to break a habit. I feel very confident that the answer is not ninety days.

• 24:28Jemma Sbeg?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:28Speaker 05

  Most of the time. And

• 24:32Speaker 05

  we can all think about, um, it's a really easy way to disprove this, which is, we can all think of examples of a friend or a relative, perhaps ourselves, who one day says, I have decided to quit smoking, for example, or quit drinking or take up exercising. And they somehow do, then for the rest of their life, uh, that person doesn't do that thing um anymore. And we can equally think about people at the opposite end of the spectrum, who with a lot of advice, with a lot of encouragement, are not able to change or evolve, maybe even with a lot of attempts to break a bad habit.

• 25:12Speaker 05

  There's good evidence that suggests that to really internalize a new habit in your mind can take anywhere from between four and about two hundred and fifty five days, which is obviously a really wide spectrum in terms of creating and establishing new neural pathways in your brain so that whatever the behavior is, becomes automatic. There are for sure things we can do to make it easier because I could imagine people saying, I'd like it to take four days rather than two hundred and fifty six days.

• 25:44Jemma Sbeg?

  I was thinking that.

• 25:44Speaker 05

  With you, I know you're like, I'd like the four days.

• 25:46Jemma Sbeg?

  Can I choose that first option?

• 25:48Speaker 05

  Do we get to pick how many days and it's so four, I'd like it to take four days. Things you can do to bring yourself closer to four days um rather than two hundred and fifty six days. Number one, you can write it down. Number two, you can tell somebody else about it. So that's a clearly articulate your goal. You can make it visible and social to people. Um and you can shift your environment, shift the context in which you operate, to make it less likely that the habit is available or attractive to you as well.

• 26:21Jemma Sbeg?

  So this is the other thing I feel like is the problem with the ninety day thing. And I wonder if you have the same thought, which is it takes ninety days to break a bad habit. But once you're past that, if you keep the habit for the rest of your life, who's to say it didn't take one day?

• 26:35Speaker 05

  Then what happens?

• 26:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 26:36Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 26:36Jemma Sbeg?

  Like, so it's like ninety days to set a new habit, but so it's like, well, if I go back to smoking or whatever on day a hundred, did, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't make sense because if you've set the new habit, surely it lasts forever. Like, do you know what I'm saying?

• 26:50Speaker 05

  I know exactly what you're saying. And it's such a good point because if we think about it for even a second, and this is why it's so important, I think, for you to do exactly what you do and help people like really unpack, like the science behind this psychology, you pause and think about it for a second and say, is that likely? Like, is it likely that for everyone ninety days is the magic number? Of course, it's not likely. Is it even a helpful guide? Not really. And instead, what we should be perhaps encouraging people um to think about is the idea that instead of saying, I have changed, what I'm basically always doing is changing, like I'm always evolving and hopefully like moving towards something more positive.

• 27:36Speaker 05

  It's very hard to run away from something negative for the rest of your life. But if we can continue to say, All I'm trying to do is make a set of better and better, kinder and kinder to myself and to others choices. Then every single day I get the chance to make the choice again. And hopefully that feels really positive rather than exhausting to people of, oh, I've got to get up and decide not to smoke again. I've got to get up um and go out and decide how I'm going to show up um in this night. But instead say, let's take it one step at a time. We're always in the process of becoming who we are.

• 28:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Um, I actually think that is such a smart way of thinking about it, which is stop thinking about changing habits as deprivation, but instead as a as addition. And I think they've done amazing, amazing studies where it is so much easier to, well, it's so much harder to say, don't eat the marshmallow or don't do the thing than say, um, but opt into doing something, opt into like, do this activity instead of eating the marshmallow or like, think about the habit or think about behavioral change as something that is like a gift or an addition to your life rather than just like, oh, I have to spend the rest of my life not drinking. I have to spend the rest of my life not eating carbs.

• 28:52Jemma Sbeg?

  I will not, that's a terrible habit example, but like, I have to spend the rest of my life depriving myself of something in order to be happy. It's like, oh, you get to spend the rest of your life, you know, oh, today's the day I get to wake up and like, my lungs feel even better. Today's the day that I get to wake up and try a new mocktail. Today's the day I get to wake up and like really nourish my body in like a way that feels so fruitful. I feel like that's such a good behavioral shift and that's what I'm hearing you kind of say, right?

• 29:17Speaker 05

  I like the idea of having a a inner debate with yourself. But the really positive form of the question is, like, what's in it for me? Like, what's in it for me? Why would I even do this?

• 29:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 29:30Speaker 05

  And the more you can start to say to yourself, oh, like, I know what's in it for me. And it is all those examples that you just gave and probably many more for people. You get to remind yourself that there are benefits that are coming. Even better is if you can remind yourself of benefits that are here already. And I've saved money. I got to have a conversation with someone that I'm trying to repair a relationship with. For example, I tried a workout dance class and fell down. But I also fell down in front of a lot of people and I did not die. Like of embarrassment. Like I have learned something new and positive about myself.

• 30:11Speaker 05

  So there are not only benefits that are coming in the future, which is good, but still hard for us to imagine. But I'm getting benefits right now.

• 30:18Jemma Sbeg?

  I love that. What's in it for me?

• 30:20Speaker 05

  What's in it for me?

• 30:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Like if you want to change your behaviour, be like, what's in it for me? What am I going to gain tomorrow? And again, like we were talking about that small win, like setting yourself up to win big or at least small. But it wins something like really, really early on.

• 30:37Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over fourteen years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is. Lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favourite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 31:14Jemma Sbeg?

  These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice, telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors,

• 31:58Jemma Sbeg?

  to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs Hype on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:14Jemma Sbeg?

  Growth isn't linear. There's no magic timeline or secret template. And no one understands that quite like Southern New Hampshire University. Because SNHU has online degree programs built for whatever path you are on. Tried college before? Transfer up to 90 credits. And if you're new to this, no worries. Every student gets a dedicated academic advisor. And here's the best part, there's no set class times. So school actually fits your life. Ready to get started? Visit SNHU.edu/psych. That's SNHU.edu/psych. Something that really frustrates me is when wellness brands greenwash their products to make them seem more clean

• 32:59Jemma Sbeg?

  or better for the environment when they are actually not. When you look into it, they are kind of just like the rest of them. Nature's Sunshine, however, doesn't just talk about the planet. They do something about it. They sustainably source ingredients. They craft their supplements with 100% solar powered manufacturing. And their products are incredible. I don't drink coffee and so Nature's Sunshine Brain Edge gives me that kick I sometimes need with potent ingredients combining yerba mate with nootropics, adaptogens, botanicals to support mental clarity and focus. And you already know how much I love their marine glow and have for years. It is the only collagen that combines skin supporting marine collagen

• 33:41Jemma Sbeg?

  with the sun and blue light protection of luton to make your skin feel and look glowy and protected. Plus, I just really like that they have nature at the core of everything that they do. Try Nature's Sunshine and experience the difference with supplements that are better for you and the planet. Go to naturessunshine.com today and use the code PSYCH for 20% off your first order plus free shipping. That's code PSYCH for 20% off your first order at naturessunshine.com.

• 34:13Jemma Sbeg?

  You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer is for. Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for 100 hours for plump glowing skin. That is correct, 100 hours. It is a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin. It's allergy-tested, it's fragrance-free, it absorbs quickly. So skin feels hydrated without feeling heavy or weighed down. I use this daily and I'm very picky with what goes on my skin. I have a combination skin type, so I really don't want to feel too oily or too dry.

• 34:56Jemma Sbeg?

  And this product is perfect for that. I also find that Moisture Surge is a great lightweight base. If you like something under your makeup, it makes your skin look so plump and soft, especially first thing in the morning when it's maybe not looking that way. Basically, I think it feels exactly like how you want a moisturizer to feel. Fresh, lightweight, and deeply hydrating. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge.

• 35:28Jemma Sbeg?

  I want to just quickly go back to one thing that we, again, I keep, I keep like wanting to pick your brain about all these things. Why does motivation and discipline, but mainly I would say actually, why does motivation fail us so often? And why is it that people who have all the motivation in the world are often the ones who don't always, that aren't always successful?

• 35:56Speaker 05

  Because motivation without both a really good plan, the right support and the right environment, is just too much effort. You are basically constantly pushing against a brick wall. And so it is a way of trapping you in your own good intentions. And that's so unfortunate because people really deserve a chance to take all of the wisdom from psychology, from behavioral science, from neuroscience, and use it to their own advantage. And if we just say to people, "Oh, I think you need a little bit more motivation."

• 36:38Speaker 05

  It's like saying to people, don't get defensive. It's gonna produce the exact opposite of the behavior that you hope it will.

• 36:46Speaker 05

  And so when you feel that sense of motivation for yourself, because it's not, motivation is not bad. It's just not enough. What can you do with it? Instead of saying, okay, well, today, it's the first of January, I feel very motivated. I'm gonna go out and run fifteen miles and then I will eat a salad. And then I will get eight hours of very good quality sleep. A really good thing that you could do instead is I'm gonna take that motivation and use it to create a plan. I'm gonna use it to find a buddy to support me in what I am doing. I'm gonna use that motivation to actually imagine what it's gonna feel like in a week when I'm back at work and extremely busy.

• 37:28Speaker 05

  And make a plan for that version of Julia, rather than today's version of Julia. So can motivation be a fuel for people to change? Of course, yes. Does it last a very long time? No, it doesn't. And when it meets other obstacles, it is very often not enough in the face of those obstacles. And it is really, really unhelpful when we judge ourselves or judge other people for not having enough motivation. Not having enough willpower. It wasn't ever likely that they were gonna be successful on motivation and willpower alone.

• 38:05Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm, I think about this all the time whenever, and this is a total like curve ball to throw you, but we'll do the detour, come back. Um, I think about this all the time when I see people, like criticize people who are overweight on the internet. And they're like, just have some willpower, just have some discipline. And I'm like, that is honestly so ridiculous to think that that is enough. And that that was ever enough for you to change or ever enough for anybody. Like the way that our environment, our childhood environments are set up. The way that our physical environments are set up, the way that modern society is set up means that it is more likely than not that you will not change your behavior because of how exhausting it is to go against all your history, all like the stresses of modern life, all the coping skills that you have to change.

• 38:47Jemma Sbeg?

  So I love that you're saying like that's motivation and willpower like is not enough for anybody. And if for somebody to say that it was meant that there were probably other things going on, the tactile things, the relational things, the environmental things that are like also shifting at the same time.

• 39:05Speaker 05

  It's also such a good example, and if we can extend the D to it even a little further. What you ask about is such a good example of what we call in behavioral economics, but also now in psychology, the fundamental attribution error. And basically, I experience myself as a very complicated, unique, special, fully realized human being. I'm a complete person to myself. And even people that we know very well, very intimately, remain sort of strangers to us in all kinds of ways. We can not only never properly understand them,

• 39:44Speaker 05

  but they're never quite as complete as we are as a person. And so a consequence of that is we are extremely quick to both blame, it was probably their fault, and to judge, there is something wrong with them, other people in ways that we might not, um, for ourselves. It's a really good example is if someone is late to a meeting or to an event, especially if we're inclined to judge them, um, we might say, oh, of course, they're very disorganized. This always happens. They are not respectful. And we've jumped really fast to, like, they're not a good person, they don't value our relationships. Whereas, of course, in one hundred percent of the situations where I have been late,

• 40:29Speaker 05

  there's obviously a very good explanation, the, oh, usually outside of myself. The train was delayed, someone else really needed me, perhaps I was coming from a very important meeting. And so that fundamental attribution error, the tendency to externalize our own mistakes and to blame other people, um, for their limitations, is really dangerous because it not only prevents us taking a hard look at ourselves, but also prevents us being more forgiving, more welcoming, maybe even more helpful to that person.

• 41:02Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. I do this all the time. I'm hearing you say that. I was like, oh, I did this this morning. There was like somebody walking in front of me and I was like, that person is so rude. I was like, can't they see that this is a Sidewalk and then I literally did it like five minutes later. And I was like, well, that's different because, you know, and then I was like, no, it's not different.

• 41:22Speaker 05

  Like I had to pause in the middle of the street to text someone.

• 41:24Jemma Sbeg?

  I was lost. I was like, I don't know where I was going. I was like, well, this person probably didn't either. I know it's so interesting to like. Basically what we're just talking about is like empathy and like not judging other people's progress or. Yeah, what they may or may not have like in their toolkit.

• 41:39Speaker 05

  I always think the first law of behavioral science is. People are people and so are you. And so you can be forgiving of other people while having very high expectations for yourself. And so indeed, people are people and so are you.

• 41:53Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I love that. Okay, let's talk about how we're going to change our behavior. You've been giving us so many little snippets. Like little treats along the way, but I'm like, I'm, let's get a little bit of a, let's get a little bit of a guide down from an expert. What are. In your mind, some of the most scientifically successful ways to change behavior. On an individual level, in a family level, on in a relationship level, maybe even an organizational level. How do we make people, including ourselves, change?

• 42:22Speaker 05

  First, get specific and second, get honest. So let's be really practical about it and let's just talk about individuals for a second.

• 42:30Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 42:30Speaker 05

  And then we can talk about much more enjoyable than trying to change yourself, trying to change other people the best. Let's do that instead, but let's for the moment assume like we have to um make a sincere effort to change ourselves. Okay, get specific. Um, what is the behavior? That you are trying to change. And so, for example. Quit drinking is not a behavior. That's just a like loose. Goal or it's a kind of category of activities that you don't want to be doing um anymore. Um, deciding not to have a second drink, for example, on any given night. All right, like we're starting to get specific um on what you are seeking to do. It's very clearly measurable.

• 43:15Speaker 05

  So get specific. We've already talked a few times about the idea that writing a goal down, even if you never show it to people. Is very helpful. It seems to trip some kind of cognitive switch for us. Asking people for help is another thing that you can do that is really powerful and useful. And so that might be, I have someone that I could text when I am thinking about, for, to extend this example, having a second drink that night. The other thing that you can do, and this works really well in organizations and teams as well, and is like, let's start to imagine what that future would be like if I make decide, or I make this choice, that I'm trying to move away from.

• 43:59Speaker 05

  If it happens, if I want to have a second drink, if I think about calling that person who I actually have a pretty destructive relationship with, then what should I do? If I have this feeling, because feelings often precede our thoughts, then what am I likely to think, like, I should call that person? And what should I do instead? Really important is that we have some kind of replacement for the behavior. So a good example in a pub would be, well, what would I order instead? Like, that might be a really good moment to know what my alternative order is. If you've never contemplated what you would order, other than a second drink,

• 44:41Speaker 05

  it might be good to have a plan going in before you do so. And then the next thing to do is to say, well, once I've accomplished a really small version of that goal, we've talked about it, it could be twenty four hours of successfully achieving the goal. It could be thirty six, it could be a month. Then what happens? What reward might I give myself? One of the funny things that happens is that the reward is often very motivating to us. We're seduced by the idea of the reward, but once you get there, you find it wasn't that important to you. Like, you didn't want or need the thing that you were going to reward yourself with, because the goal itself has become its own reward.

• 45:23Speaker 05

  So get specific upfront, get support, including from your own brain about what you're going to do instead, and then have your if then escape plan.

• 45:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm, yeah, the if then intentions are so good. I feel like very, who, I feel like James Clear wrote about them a lot in Atomic Habits.

• 45:43Speaker 05

  Atomic Habits. And it sounds really basic, but one of the things that I love about it is it's not just, oh, there's a different plan, but that idea that we're kind of constantly on branching pathways, and you say to yourself, oh. Like there were always a different set of choices.

• 45:59Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 45:59Speaker 05

  Like there were always, this was always a choose your own adventure. I could always have made different choices. And this is just one of those moments where I can do that.

• 46:09Jemma Sbeg?

  I feel like this is what we keep coming back to is like you're in charge of your reality. Prove it to yourself that you can be in charge.

• 46:15Speaker 05

  Exactly. And then, um, no one, no one cares more than you. Like no one will care more than you. But I hope the other really liberating thought, and sometimes this comes with time and sometimes you just have the opportunity to learn it is. No one cares.

• 46:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 46:35Speaker 05

  And there's a really good version of that, which is you can do whatever you want because um most people are just not paying that much attention.

• 46:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, it's the best.

• 46:44Speaker 05

  Yeah. People are thinking an awful lot about themselves and how they're showing up in that situation. And aren't finding whatever you are doing particularly memorable. And in the best possible way, perhaps not even that interesting to them.

• 46:58Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. I feel like that is a completely different conversation, but once you realise that, it's like, oh, wow, this whole so much more about the world is possible to me. When I don't have this entire part of my brain thinking about how somebody else is perceiving me when they're not, like it's, it's a huge freedom, I think.

• 47:16Speaker 05

  You heard, so Daniel Kahneman said, like, nothing is important as you think it is while you are thinking about it. And I think the personal psychology version of that is I'm just not as interesting as I think I am.

• 47:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 05

  And that's a little confronting, but hopefully also wildly freeing for people. I'm just not that interesting to other people.

• 47:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, you can put the spotlight on somebody else for a while. Um, following this vein of how to change behaviour, the vein being the entire episode, but following this specific vein. What happens when you fail? You know, we've talked a lot about how. You will try multiple times, likely, you likely will. I think I read the statistic that people try on average like twenty five, thirty times before a behaviour sticks, if it ever does. Um. What's the protocol then for when you've noticed that you've slipped, you've fallen, it hasn't gone the way that you wanted it to?

• 48:06Speaker 05

  Gemma, can I just say, I think that was the most important sentence in the whole episode. What happens when you fail?

• 48:12Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 48:13Speaker 05

  And so many people that I talk to, and I do a lot of work with CEOs or very senior executives, people much more established in their life and careers, refuse to use the phrase when we fail or when I fail. And will only talk about if we fail and are then very quick to say, but of course we won't.

• 48:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 48:35Speaker 05

  We will be in the minority who succeeds, but don't do enough to really push themselves, push the team to say, maybe it will be quite healthy to plan for failure. What happens when we fail? And assuming that we will, both lets you in advance say, well, I'm going to forgive myself first when that happens. But then I'm going to do two things. The first is I'm going to declare a fresh start. They, and you might know the fresh start effect, which is that certain periods of time, your birthday, New Year, a Monday, can be very motivating for us in terms of like declaring that now is the beginning of a new habit.

• 49:20Speaker 05

  We just seem to be a little bit more successful when we have had a fresh start. The thing that I love about this science and psychology is anything can be a fresh start tomorrow. The next hour, the next half hour, the more that you can say to yourself, I have the opportunity to begin again at any possible moment. And so if, for example, you have not started the day as healthily as you want, and you're like, well, today is shot, I might as well eat a whole cake.

• 49:52Jemma Sbeg?

  Um.

• 49:53Speaker 05

  You could also say two P M is a fresh start. Nobody cares. There are no rules. Pick a time, begin with a, begin with a fresh start. The second is, instead of talking about what we have to do or what the rules or requirements are, or what we think other people expect of us.

• 50:17Speaker 05

  It could be really constructive to instead frame our goals in terms of expectations that we have of ourselves. What expectation do I have of myself? So I might have an expectation that I am a person who is able and excited to get up early and exercise. I might have an expectation that I am a person who gives help to other people when I can see that they need it, that I am kind or generous or a patient. And you see, all of that is part of saying, here's a set of qualities that I hope I have, that I would like to see more of in myself, and I'm going to look for opportunities to practise them. I'm going to look for opportunities to demonstrate that that's consistent with

• 51:02Speaker 05

  how I would like to see myself. So when we fail, which all of us will, declaring a fresh start and then reminding ourselves what expectations we have of ourselves makes us much more likely to be successful the next time.

• 51:20Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And I think people think that it's jinxing it, or it's a self fulfilling prophecy. But it's like, well, wouldn't you rather the prophecy than actually was able to get back on track? Like, then it just be completely derailed by not having an if then plan?

• 51:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's almost refusing to think about it is itself kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. And it's exactly, you can have a prophecy, or you can have a plan, but you can't have both of those. And what we know for sure is that the plan path succeeds much more often than the prophecy path.

• 51:51Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh my God, I love that. That's an amazing quote. That is so good.

• 51:54Speaker 05

  Put it on a t-shirt.

• 51:55Jemma Sbeg?

  I know, I'm like, hmm, much?

• 52:03Jemma Sbeg?

  Let's This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on, and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favourite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 52:41Jemma Sbeg?

  These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors, to

• 53:25Jemma Sbeg?

  separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Growth isn't linear. There's no magic timeline or secret template. And no one understands that quite like Southern New Hampshire University. Because SNHU has online degree programs built for whatever path you are on. Tried college before? Transfer up to 90 credits. And if you're new to this, no worries. Every student gets a dedicated academic advisor. And here's the best part, there's no set class times. So school actually fits your life. Ready to get started?

• 54:10Jemma Sbeg?

  Visit SNHU.edu/psych. That's SNHU.edu/psych. Something that really frustrates me is when wellness brands greenwash their products to make them seem more clean or better for the environment when they are actually not. When you look into it, they are kind of just like the rest of them. Nature's Sunshine, however, doesn't just talk about the planet. They do something about it. They sustainably source ingredients. They craft their supplements with 100% solar powered manufacturing. And their products are incredible. I don't drink coffee. And so Nature's Sunshine Brain Edge gives me that Kick I sometimes need with potent ingredients combining yerba mate with nootropics,

• 54:55Jemma Sbeg?

  adaptogens, botanicals to support mental clarity and focus. And you already know how much I love their marine glow and have for years. It is the only collagen that combines skin supporting marine collagen with the sun and blue light protection of luton to make your skin feel and look glowy and protected. Plus, I just really like that they have nature at the core of everything that they do. Try nature's sunshine and experience the difference with supplements that are better for you and the planet. Go to nature's sunshine dot com today and use the code psych for twenty percent off your first order plus free shipping. That's code psych for twenty percent off your first order at nature sunshine dot com.

• 55:39Jemma Sbeg?

  You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge one hundred hour moisturizer is for. Moisture Surge one hundred hour moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for one hundred hours for plump glowing skin. That is correct, one hundred hours. It is a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin. It's allergy tested, it's fragrance free, it absorbs quickly. So skin feels hydrated without feeling heavy or weighed down. I use this daily and I'm very picky with what goes on my skin. I have a combination skin type, so I really don't want to feel too oily or too dry.

• 56:23Jemma Sbeg?

  And this product is perfect for that. I also find that Moisture Surge is a great lightweight base. If you like something under your makeup, it makes your skin look so plump and soft, especially first thing in the morning when it's maybe not looking that way. Basically, I think it feels exactly like how you want a moisturizer to feel. Fresh, lightweight and deeply hydrating. Try Clinique Moisture Surge one hundred hour today at clinique dot com. Feels like moisture surge. Get into this before we end up wrapping up. How do we handle people who refuse to change? So I know we've spoken a lot about this relational factor.

• 57:05Jemma Sbeg?

  You know, you maybe you have parents who refuse to change, you have a partner who refuses to change. You have friends who are enabling a problem, just as much as you are probably enabling them as well. Um. What do we do? Do we call out their behaviour? When do we just decide that maybe we need to just not be in that situation? It's a fine line. Do you have any advice for people who are dealing with that?

• 57:27Speaker 05

  It is so seductive to think a lot about how other people need to change. Trust me, I spent my whole life working on change and the best is the kind where you get to stay exactly the same and other people have to change. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of that out there. And so instead of really, I'm gonna say occupying our mental and emotional headspace with the ways that other people need to change. The safest assumption is that you can't change other people.

• 58:02Speaker 05

  It's not that other people don't change, of course they do. Can you make someone else change? No, generally you can't. And so what you can do, what you are always in control of is your response to that person. And understanding, I mean, why that person is so triggering for you is a really good step to take. Because you can continue to change your relationship, both like the quantity of time that you spend with them, for example. How you spend that time, what you do, or how you react to what they say to you, whether that is advice from a parent. That doesn't make it an obligation to do what they suggested that you do.

• 58:44Speaker 05

  Or why someone else's appetite for conflict doesn't have to turn into an argument if you choose to remove yourself from the situation.

• 58:54Speaker 05

  However, sometimes we see, we feel like we've told someone to change, suggested that they change. And they still haven't changed. And it's really easy to interpret that as a statement of disrespect from that person towards you. And I think there's actually a really useful tactic in practice that comes from family therapy, actually, or couples therapy around.

• 59:20Speaker 05

  Articulating a need that you might have or a desire that you might have for people to change. It's basically this, it's called a clear and specific request, because that is exactly what it is. And so often someone will talk to me about a person in their life, it could be a person on their team, it could be their boss, it could be a romantic partner or a friend, and they'll say, oh, this person, like, here are like all the things that I think are wrong with them. And I just really think they should completely change. And I will usually say, have you made a clear and specific request? When you are fifteen minutes late for our dinners, I interpret that as a sign of disrespect.

• 1:00:04Speaker 05

  Um, for me and for my time, um, do you think it would be possible for you to plan to be five minutes early in the future? Clear and specific request. And note, it's not a trap, they're free to refuse, they're free to say that isn't practical. For me, it's not an abuse of your power and abuse of the relationship, but you've made a clear and specific request. And maybe they can respond to that request, maybe they can't, but you at least will know that you have done your part. What I know for sure is not successful in changing anyone else's behaviour is complaining about it to a third person. That is the opposite of a successful strategy. It's enjoyable, it's very emotionally satisfying, and unfortunately works zero percent of the time.

• 1:00:49Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, and it's often feels like emotional processing, right? Sometimes I think we think that our reaction to their behaviour is the problem, which it probably is, and we need to work through it, but we work through it not with them. And we're like trying to find clarity in somebody who isn't that person. It's very like a roundabout way of, like, the other person becomes a proxy for what you really should be saying to like the individual.

• 1:01:13Speaker 05

  I feel like the most useful question in all of the intergroup relations, interpersonal psychology is, have you tried talking to them about it?

• 1:01:22Jemma Sbeg?

  I know.

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  Like so often you don't even need the second question.

• 1:01:25Jemma Sbeg?

  I know, I know, but it's so difficult, isn't it?

• 1:01:28Speaker 05

  So often I will say to people, have you tried talking to them about it, especially in a professional setting? And often people will say. Well, I was sort of hoping you would talk to them about it. That's why we're having this conversation. And I think your Gemma so right to say, it can be very helpful for you to process, to understand your reaction, to actually figure out, is it, um, as a younger person in my life said to me recently, is it an issue or is it an ish them? That's a

• 1:01:59Jemma Sbeg?

  More T-shirts are gonna be printed.

• 1:02:01Speaker 05

  More T-shirts coming your way.

• 1:02:02Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 05

  Is it an issue or is it an ish them? And that conversation can be useful. It's just not going to change the other person's behaviour. But if we also have pretty low expectations for other people and their ability to change their behaviour, that can actually be pretty empowering for us because it's a reminder, oh, what I can change, what I can control is my own behaviour.

• 1:02:23Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. And often, often I think that actually is, again, another very, very freeing thing. You know, just being like, okay, cool. So this isn't, this situation isn't making me happy. It's not, you're not responsible for others' emotions and they're not responsible for mine. Do you know what I mean? I feel like that's a very empowering thing about behavioural change. It's just realising like, nobody's gonna come and save me, nobody's gonna come and fix me. This is completely my obligation and that's terrifying and also incredibly freeing that I don't need to really answer to anybody if I'm like, well, I do, but as in like, that I don't, like, I can just take control. Like, it's up to me, I can make the decision that I wanna be different and just go and do it.

• 1:03:01Speaker 05

  One of the most useful things, maybe the only useful thing we can really do is be self accountable.

• 1:03:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:07Speaker 05

  One of the most confronting chunks of psychology that I read about is basically the body of literature that says, almost no matter how well we know a person or how long we have known a person, it is very difficult to accurately predict someone's feelings or thoughts in response to a situation. So every time you're telling yourself a story that you have to do something because another person will be so upset or because they are expecting you to do that or because they will think badly of you if you do or don't do something. Actually, just reminding yourself that you might not be as good a reader of people. You might not be, in particular, a very good reader of this person.

• 1:03:50Speaker 05

  It can actually free you up to see a whole different set of choices.

• 1:03:53Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, I'm, I'm literally, I'm just thinking about, I'm thinking about myself there and being like, yeah, that's totally right. The amount of times I've been like, oh, my friend's totally gonna react this way, or my partner is gonna react this way. It's like, that never. I don't really think I've ever been able to predict it.

• 1:04:08Speaker 05

  A fun thing that I really love about it is like, there's some emerging research that says in certain situations, the better you know someone, the worse you are likely to be at predicting their thoughts or feelings in a specific situation. Which could be really confronting, you know, the world, it suddenly feels very unstable. But I kind of love it as a way of saying that people can still surprise you.

• 1:04:31Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:32Speaker 05

  That all kinds of things could happen in a relationship that feels extremely stable or extremely concrete. But actually, we could continue to have new things happen in this relationship. And that every time, I encourage people to do this, go out and look for the unexpected reaction in your close friends, romantic partners, colleagues that you work with. I think it's actually a very fun thing when you say to yourself, did not expect Gemma to say that.

• 1:04:59Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, there we go. Okay, let's talk about your book. Can we talk about it?

• 1:05:03Speaker 05

  I would be delighted.

• 1:05:04Jemma Sbeg?

  From my bookshelf over yonder. Um, I was gonna say, I was gonna explain it, but that's not my book. So you have to explain it for me and tell, tell us about it.

• 1:05:15Speaker 05

  Let me start by talking about why we wrote it, which was pretty much the same motivation for all of the work you do, which is a lot of our efforts to change in large organizations, even small teams, or like if you're a solo entrepreneur, are not very successful. We're actually disappointing much more often than we succeed. But there is a science to success as well, which is what we put together in the book, that groups of people can do big things together really well. Um, and from the world of airlines, fashion, food and beverages, um, from restaurant kitchens and.

• 1:05:51Speaker 05

  We tell all of these stories about people who have successfully experimented with the science of change and brought it into their own lives and into the work that they do. And what we're trying to do is create a bit of a challenge to our kind of very standard model in a lot of workplaces where a change is coming and we basically say to people, shut up and change. And instead invite people to be part of the conditions where they can change successfully.

• 1:06:21Jemma Sbeg?

  And it's called How Change Really Works.

• 1:06:23Speaker 05

  How Change Really Works.

• 1:06:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Listening rather than watching, um, what is the, I don't wanna say a fun fact. What is the most interesting thing in that book? That we can get us, that you think is the most interesting, maybe it's a story, maybe it's a fact, I don't know, it's up to you in the book that people can look forward to more of.

• 1:06:43Speaker 05

  The

• 1:06:46Speaker 05

  original experiment behind this book was with seven thousand people around the world. Asking them about their feelings or reactions to change at work. We were trying to figure out the answer to the question, is it true that people just don't like to change? Are people allergic to change? And the answer is no. When we ask people, how do you feel about a change that is coming? About half the time, people feel quite positive about it. And when we ask them what feelings they have, they say, I feel curious, but also anxious. And so we have an openness to change and also a great deal of uncertainty about it. But I think as soon as you know that about yourself, about other people, you can start to say,

• 1:07:31Speaker 05

  how do I then shift the conversation really quickly from change as an obligation, something you have to do, to that invitation to be better?

• 1:07:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm, that is so cool. When is it available?

• 1:07:43Speaker 05

  Comes out May nineteenth, How Change Really Works.

• 1:07:46Jemma Sbeg?

  There we go. We have one final question for you. We, me, I always do, you do that.

• 1:07:51Speaker 05

  What, when you're like, we, we, we ever, I think that's nice though, isn't it?

• 1:07:56Jemma Sbeg?

  I don't know, I just, I've been trying to stop doing that. That's my bad habit.

• 1:07:58Speaker 05

  Oh, who are like in your mind, who are the other like we's?

• 1:08:02Jemma Sbeg?

  I, well, I think it's an Australian thing that I do where, I don't know if you're the same where, I think Australians are very much like, oh, you can't take credit for things. So you always say we. It's like, no, it's just I. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:08:13Speaker 05

  I do, yeah. It's true, because I think in the United States it would be like much more natural for something like, I like have like this question, like I have even, I think especially for students, it's if you, if someone has helped you. So for example, you're like, oh, I actually like didn't write the final version of this question. I can't say I have a question.

• 1:08:31Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. This is why I say to people, you need to have American friends. Like all of my like Australian, British friends, I was like, we need to get you, everybody should be prescribed an American friend because they really, I think, just have like an ability to really talk about themselves more accurately, even if it like might come off as arrogant, like more accurately than people who are humble all the time.

• 1:08:51Speaker 05

  I think that sense of the personal narrative, manifest destiny, like I'm where I'm meant to be. But one of the things I really appreciate is the hype squad of I'm like excited to cheer for other people as well.

• 1:09:05Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I know. Tangents. We're keeping that in. I love, I love a chit chat. I never get anything done because I'm always doing things like this and I'm talking to people. Anyways, um, my final question, I want to know, what is one piece of advice that you have for people in their twenties that has nothing to do with what we talked about today?

• 1:09:29Speaker 05

  We are always in the middle of the story. No matter what has happened to you, you're at the first day of a job or the last day of the relationship or the really messy, annoying middle of trying to create a new habit in your life. We are always in the middle of the story. And if you can be curious about how the story unfolds, interested in your own life and the way in which you're a character in other people's life, I think that also frees you up to be the hero of that story and to remind yourself that anything is possible in the rest of the story, no matter what happened in the beginning.

• 1:10:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm. And what was the biggest lesson from your twenties?

• 1:10:15Speaker 05

  In any given situation, I think there are things to be afraid of. And there are things to be curious or excited about. And, and that's a choice. You can choose to be afraid. You can choose to be excited. And it feels easier to choose to be afraid. That feels natural. But, or instinctive, maybe. Um, but choosing to be excited opens up an almost unlimited set of possibilities.

• 1:10:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, I love that. That's actually such a beautiful way to finish the episode.

• 1:10:53Speaker 05

  Oh, perfect. I love that.

• 1:10:55Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, like it ties everything up in a nice neat bow. Choose to be excited about your change. Choose to be excited about your twenties, about your life. I feel like that's a beautiful theme.

• 1:11:05Speaker 05

  Oh, thanks for saying that.

• 1:11:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm gonna leave a link in the description for your book, which will actually already be out when this episode goes live. Are you doing a launch party? Are you doing anything fun?

• 1:11:18Speaker 05

  Ooh, okay. What's the most fun thing that you've seen someone do? What did you do?

• 1:11:22Jemma Sbeg?

  For, for when like a book comes out or something like that? Um, but I'm a big celebrating person.

• 1:11:27Speaker 05

  Good.

• 1:11:28Jemma Sbeg?

  So like I'm always, if there's an excuse for, to get people together, I will always do it. Um, my friends like hired a boat for their book coming out, which was really, really fun. It was actually just so, I think they just wanted to hire a boat in general.

• 1:11:41Speaker 05

  Uh, that's a lot of commitment. Like, it's not like I will, I will stop by your book party. It's like you're either here when the boat goes and you are here until the end.

• 1:11:48Jemma Sbeg?

  And also like some people.

• 1:11:49Speaker 05

  Read the book aloud to you.

• 1:11:50Jemma Sbeg?

  I know they, it was really like we, you're kind of, we're in your hands. Like, we've got to just kind of do it. But I feel like, uh, when, this is so random, but a bunch of my friends are now writing books. And I always say to people, cause not random, they're amazing people. But I always say like, make sure that the day it comes out, you do something really special. Cause it's like a really big moment. But then often it kind of feels kind of flat. So hopefully you've got something fun planned.

• 1:12:14Speaker 05

  Oh, I like that. Does it have a good mental snapshot moment? We have plenty of things to do. Like we have plenty of media things to do on the nineteenth of May. One thing we're going to do, which I'm excited for is, um. Have you spent time in New York?

• 1:12:27Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, love.

• 1:12:28Speaker 05

  So Barnes and Noble on Fifth Avenue, we are gonna do the window display over the holidays, but we are going to go there that day and sign a bunch of copies, which I think is emotionally very meaningful for the authors. It's maybe less meaningful for everyone else, but I feel I'm excited for that.

• 1:12:44Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, you've got it all sorted. I feel like that's gonna be a fun mental snapshot. Cause when my book came out, I just like kinda hung up on myself.

• 1:12:49Speaker 05

  No, I know.

• 1:12:50Jemma Sbeg?

  It was so bad. And I was like, this huge thing just happened for me and I was like, so maybe I'll go to the grocery store, walk my dog.

• 1:12:59Speaker 05

  But you'd been working on it for a long time as well. So I mean, that feeling of like, well, it's like, it's done. Like, I'm over it.

• 1:13:05Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, it's very, it's like when you get a degree, it's like when you graduate, like so many things have like the, uh, work, work, work, work, work. And then it's like, it's just done. And it's like out, you've got the piece of paper, you've, the book's out in the world, like this thing is.

• 1:13:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's time to move on to the next thing. Yes, I agree with that. No, you, I, you have to celebrate it.

• 1:13:21Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, you definitely.

• 1:13:22Speaker 05

  Um, one of my favorite chapters in the book is called Ending Change.

• 1:13:26Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh.

• 1:13:27Speaker 05

  Because we think a lot about the beginning and we never think about the end. Like, okay, like this is, this is done. Like, how do we end change really well?

• 1:13:36Jemma Sbeg?

  There we go.

• 1:13:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:37Jemma Sbeg?

  Have a party. Duh. On a boat. That's the answer. That's, you know what I mean?

• 1:13:41Speaker 05

  That's the solution.

• 1:13:42Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, you can take that chapter out. I just, I just gave it away for free. Um, well, I will make sure that if you are listening, you know exactly what about Julia's book and where to see her TED Talks and where to see what she is up to. Thank you if you have made it this far. If you are listening on Spotify, leave a comment down below. What is the behavior that you were trying to change? Um, whatever it is, we are gonna be an open book of promises to each other and promises to ourselves. You can of course follow us on Instagram. You can watch episodes on Netflix. You can do all of those things. There are like a million links in the episode description at this stage. So go there, explore. We have a sub stack. There's lots to be done with the podcast if you want to go even further on this episode

• 1:14:24Jemma Sbeg?

  or all of our other episodes. But of course, as I say, as we wrap up every single topic, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon.

• 1:14:38Jemma Sbeg?

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