Jocko Underground: When Someone is Gate-Keeping and Preventing your Success.

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is the Jocko Underground Podcast, number 165, sitting here with Echo Charles, preparing to answer questions from the troopers of Planet Earth.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  So, we ready?

• 0:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're ready. We're gonna present some courses of action, some thoughts,

• 0:17Jocko Willink?

  and then we'll move forward.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, see how we can move forward. Good. Okay, first question. Hi, Jocko Echo. I write to you to ask for advice on behalf of my girlfriend. She's one of the most squared away and hardworking people I know. Wakes up early, works out, goes to the lab, works all day. She's in the last phase of her PhD program, where her advisor, the person who runs the whole lab, is making life difficult. For starters, he's rarely in the lab. From what I can tell, he keeps students in the dark about their future. For example, he hasn't reviewed the papers that my girlfriend submitted over a year ago. There is minimal communication. He'll meet with students occasionally where he yells at them for not achieving the results he expected.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  All of that would be tolerable, except for he keeps pushing back her graduation every single semester. Everyone who has recently graduated from the lab has left on bad terms with this advisor. What can she do in this situation? Should she just keep at it and hope for the best? She's even ready to jump ship to another PhD program, but that will undo a lot of effort she has put in. Thanks for everything.

• 1:30Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'll start off by saying I don't really know a lot about PhD programs and how they work, other than hearing stories from people that I know that are doctors of some kind.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  And you know, there's different kinds of, but they do mention labs, so I'm imagining it's not like a PhD in literature or something like that. This sounds like some kind of a science-based, right? At a minimum, going to a lab. So, but I don't know much about those programs. I didn't get any degree past my just regular degree in English, which wasn't science anyways, so you're talking an area that I don't have a lot of expertise, and I certainly don't know the specifics of the program that she's involved in. So I'm just gonna look at this from sort of a leadership and a human interaction perspective.

• 2:15Jocko Willink?

  And I think what I would do if I were her is I would kind of start to document what is happening. And I would, I would gather documentation that has already taken place, right? And I would start to document things that are going on. Sending emails, hey, checking in, you know, doc, you know, I'm assuming the person that's running the lab is doctor checking in doctor. Doctor advisor, you know, you know, what's up with this? Can I expect a grade back? And then I would just start to maintain what kind of communication are you getting? And if you're not getting communication, that's by the way, that's a form of communication if you're getting blown off.

• 2:49Jocko Willink?

  As I make communications, whether I receive things or not back, I would start to, to

• 2:57Jocko Willink?

  not demand, but I would request very specific things be put in writing, you know, I'd be saying like, hey, you know, doctor advisor, I would like to know about this. I would, I've got this thing working. I'd like to know what I can expect here. I would start to ask for very specific requirements that then I can hang on to. And I can be able to, where I'm going with this, be able to present some kind of a case, right? I would probably gather other information from other students as well. Like you sure you have friends that are there? Maybe you have some friends that graduated. Let's get some documentation from them. And then I would put together like a nice request, an outline of a plan

• 3:41Jocko Willink?

  that that this advisor approves that to a commitment for how you're going to finish this program.

• 3:49Jocko Willink?

  And then hopefully get traction. But if you don't get traction, I would set a meeting with the advisor and I would say, listen, you know, here's where we've been for the last three months, four months, five months, because she, she must have some emails. So you, maybe it's the last nine months. Here's where, what I've been through. Here's where I'm at. And unless you can help me resolve this, I'm actually going to go and talk to, you know, the professor, not the advisor, but like the professor or the department head or something like that. And get this resolved because I, this is unacceptable. It's unacceptable for this.

• 4:26Jocko Willink?

  Be cordial and be professional.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  And but this is wrong. You know, this is just wrong. So that's what I would do. I would gather evidence. I would build a case. I would eventually request like an outline of what I need to do to get this done in writing. And then if I'm not getting the response that I need, I would present the case first to the advisor and say, hey, because I don't want to blind some of them. I don't want to blindside someone. I would present and say, hey, listen, Echo, here's where I'm at. Here's I've been nine months of correspondence from you. You sent me two emails back. I've sent you thirty seven emails. The only thing you sent me back, one email says, yes. The other email says, check back with me later. And I did, and you never responded. So that is nine months of me putting forth my maximum effort. And this is what I've gotten back from you.

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  I need to graduate from this program. I need to carry on with my life. If you cannot give me a simple, clear, concise answer on how I can make that happen. I am going to take this information to the professor that is running the course. And I'm going to get this resolved. Now, listen, I'm being a little bit more aggressive than I would be in this conversation. But that's ultimately what you have to do, in my opinion.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that it's interesting how documenting

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  is become so much more persuasive, I guess, for lack of a better term. Where, you know, especially when you have the like the dates and the times, you know, like ever seen those depositions or whatever. I'm thinking of a movie right now, the the social network. You ever watch that on the social network? So it's about Facebook and stuff, the lawsuits and stuff like that. But like he'll they'll go like through the the little court or sorry, the lawyer. And I think it's the deposition maybe. And they'll go like, oh, Wednesday, this, you said this, you said this, you said. And it kind of like when you're in the moment, it's kind of like it's easy to ignore the email and be like, well, no, like I didn't ignore all your emails. But it's like, when you have it literally written there, it paints this like way more clear of a picture, you know, because you're detached from it.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  You know, you can just kind of see it as a as a whole. But yeah, it takes a lot of it take a takes a lot more work to do that. But I think in this situation or these types of situation, this is your PhD you're talking about. So I'm saying, so it's like worth it.

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  You the only other thing to consider here. He's, I don't know what the, like, like I said, I don't know anything about the specifics of this program. If that advisor is some like highly politically connected person that you screw them over, they're gonna freaking backlash and it's gonna be, you might have to just sit there and suck it up. Everyone else, other people graduated. Sometimes like, cool, I'm gonna bear, I'm gonna grin and bear it for the next however. Yeah, you're right. You know, like occasionally, man, occasionally you just gotta play the game. Yeah. You gotta play the game sometimes. People underestimate that idea. Yeah. But the amount of friction that you can cause by not playing the game.

• 7:20Jocko Willink?

  And you think it's the right, you think it's the right thing to do and it might be the right thing to do. But I'd wait till you graduate and then put the dude on report. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, totally. You wanna do the right thing? Cool. Graduate and then go to the professor that's in charge and say, hey, just so you know, here's 94 emails that I sent in a three month period and I got one response. And it was check with me later and I didn't ever heard it back from them again. So you gotta figure out and you gotta weigh the risk versus reward. Like, oh, it's gonna take you an extra four months to graduate, but there's no drama and we'll get it done and you can carry on with your life? Cool. You present this person, all of a sudden they have a way of going, oh, you want a program? Cool. And they grade your paper and they fail you on your, see what I'm saying? You can set yourself up for a bad scenario. Yeah. So I don't want that to happen.

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  So that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko Underground Podcast. So if you want to continue to listen,

• 8:14Jocko Willink?

  go to jacood underground.com and subscribe and we're doing this. We're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms. So we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the Jocko Podcast, which will remain as is free for all, as long as we can keep it that way. But we, but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors. And we're doing it so we can give you.

• 8:46Jocko Willink?

  More control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us.

• 8:52Jocko Willink?

  And to do that, we are, we're building a website right now where we'll be able to utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. So, thank you. It's jockounderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. And if you can't afford to support us,

• 9:12Jocko Willink?

  we can still support you. Just email [email protected] and we'll get you taken care of. Until then, we will see you mobilized underground.