Max Mersch, General Partner at Fabric: Why Nobody is Paying Attention to Rising Surveillance States

Max Mersch is a General Partner at Fabric. In this conversation, Max and Anthony Pompliano discuss surveillance states, Web 3.0, what areas of crypto are over-hyped, and what areas people should be paying more attention to. ----- BlockFi allows you to keep your crypto, put it up as collateral, and receive a USD loan funded directly to your bank account. They do loans ranging from $2,000 to $10,000,000, and they're perfect for helping you reach your financial goals of all sizes. Visit BlockFi.com/Pomp to learn more about putting your crypto to work without having to sell it. ----- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by BlockWorks Group. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworksgroup.io

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off the Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off. Max Murch is a general partner at Fabric. In this conversation, we discuss surveillance states, Web 3, what areas of crypto are overhyped, and what areas people should be paying more attention to. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do as well. As many of you know, crypto investors store their digital assets on exchanges or in cold storage for long-term safekeeping. However, this strategy doesn't help them grow their investment holdings or build overall wealth. With the new BlockFi interest account, users can now securely store their Bitcoin or Ether

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  at BlockFi and receive 6% annual interest, paid monthly in cryptocurrency. 6% is an absurdly high rate. It's the best rate in the industry. I highly suggest you go check out blockfi.com/pomp. Again, that's blockfi.com/pomp to sign up and start earning crypto today. Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion.

• 1:27Anthony Pompliano?

  This podcast is for informational purposes only. Bang, bang! Alright guys, I've got Max here, all the way from across the pond. Thank you very much for coming.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Beautiful morning in New York.

• 1:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Not only is it a beautiful morning, we've got lots to talk about. Let's start with your background, and then we can get into all the crypto Web 3 stuff.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So, my side, half Romanian, half Luxembourgish. I grew up in Luxembourg, so if you think about it, probably grew up in a country that's most known for its banking system and being sort of the evil corporate nation-states. On the other hand, also have a Romanian background, which is probably one of the countries that suffered the most via communist regime for over 40 years. So that somewhat shaped my opinions into what matters and what doesn't matter in technology. I consider the Romanian background...

• 2:19Speaker 01

  The communist regime started as something that almost seems like an interesting, ideal state where everybody's equal, everybody has equal opportunities. Very quickly, that platform risk sort of jumped in. People started getting their passports taken away. There was a surveillance state. The state effectively controlled your actions in the past and in the future. And that's one of the main drivers for which I think this is one of the most interesting technologies. So two early realizations in my life. First of all, I enjoyed more, I got more pleasure out of owning a part of a company or a piece of an adventure than any other sort of materialistic good. A lot of friends were buying watches, cars, clothes. Most interesting thing for me was buying into crowdfunding rounds for a lot of early-stage startups. Then that shifted to realizing that actually, if you can work with the entrepreneur

• 3:03Speaker 01

  and have a personal relationship with them as well, it's even 10 times better. So that was one of the very first realizations and sort of set out what I wanted to do. There's a second one, which is slightly at odds with that. It was that unfortunately, most of the technologies that we're building today all end up in some sort of panoptical society, which I heard the stories and lived through a family that lived through the communist regime, which was not an ideal state at all. But what I mean by that is that you end up with a data economy where corporations give you a product for free and you become the product effectively by this. They sell on your data, they monetize on top of you. And that's not a future that makes sense for me. At least if that's where technology brings us, then technology and the original dream of the internet, which was supposed to connect us to open communications,

• 3:48Speaker 01

  to enable us to have interactions with people across the world without surveillance, then that dream has failed. And so that set out a pretty sort of easy or evident pathway into starting investing into the whole web three space. So I worked in a couple of venture funds after an engineering degree from Imperial in London. Was actually on a set set out to join Jaguar for a while, but. The prospect of working on the right front spring of a wheel for two years and then shifting on to the left front spring of that same Jaguar for another two years didn't quite make as much sense. And so I joined a venture fund in Luxembourg called Nagra Capital Partners. Thereafter, joined eVentures based in Hamburg, spent a lot of time with some great people

• 4:31Speaker 01

  there, Christian Mila, Jonathan Becker, looking at the blockchain space at the time was almost like Bitcoin is dead. This underlying blockchain technology is interesting. I think we all remember that sort of thread of thought. Luckily, not too many investments were made and the investment thesis of most people have sort of shifted back. But that really started early on for the interest, but also the thinking around where value will accrue in the long term in the space. And then I joined OpenOcean, which was a venture capital fund based out of Helsinki and within London office. They basically are the team that built MySQL or MySQL, one of the largest database in the world, but also one of the very first and big open source successes in Europe. And so the nature of where the partners had come from seemed very

• 5:14Speaker 01

  appealing. Where I met Richard, Richard Mierhead, who's a serial entrepreneur in the London office. And over time, we tried to make a few investments in space, but they didn't quite fit the investment thesis at OpenOcean. So we decided to branch out and create Fabric. And Fabric is effectively a venture capital fund, so a long term fund, ten year fund, taking multi year positions into decentralized networks and the web three space. We're quite agnostic to equity, tokens, safes, safes, as long as ultimately we hold the asset that accrues value. Over time, we're seeing more and more early stage equity rounds that might or might not lead to a token in the long term. But that's sort of quite a flexible point for us.

• 5:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Where did the name Fabric come from?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  That's a very good question. So Richard is convinced that he was sitting in a bar in Amsterdam and saw a shop called Fabric right in front of him. And that's where the idea came from. I am personally convinced that I came up with the idea as well. So we, we have somewhere a Slack message that we haven't been able to dig up yet because we haven't paid for Slack Pro yet, to be able to verify who actually came up with the name. But the idea of Fabric is that, first of all, we're building this, this mesh or this fabric, which will underpin the web three wave. And we're backing those people that are building it. And it's effectively a support structure for the next wave of the internet. And that's what Fabric is.

• 6:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Someone's supposed to imply.

• 6:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Then obviously, your background, right, is

• 6:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Like the quintessential background for seeing the value that something like this can bring. Right. I think a lot of people in the United States, for example, they don't, they haven't lived a life that they've seen the negative impacts of the internet, right? The kind of most negative impact is probably, hey, somebody tried to meddle in our election. Or, you know, look, there's hate on the internet, which, look, is not a good thing. But the idea of true surveillance, the things that a government can do to oppress people is kind of another degree of, of bad shit, frankly. Maybe talk a little bit about, you know, what is some of that stuff that's actually done? I think people hear like, oh, the surveillance state, like, go through a little bit of like,

• 7:20Anthony Pompliano?

  what does that actually mean in countries outside the United States?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And I, well, I come close to knowing what it actually does. I didn't actually live through it. I grew up in Luxembourg, so that was quite a cozy place to live up, to grow up. But I grew up with the stories of my family who obviously lived through that. So a bit of background, grandparents, university professors, writers, who obviously as intellectual were intellectuals were considered to be enemies of the states, my mother as well. And so they lived through a regime where their neighbors were reporting on them because the state had something on them or they depended on them or they would pay them. And when the communist regime in Romania fell in eighty nine, a few years later, they released all of the papers that the government had on individuals. And my grandfather got a stack of about, call it five hundred pages of reports from neighbors,

• 8:06Speaker 01

  friends that had been reporting that he'd been, I don't know, eating chicken soup for lunch or that his daughter was speaking French on the phone. And it doesn't hit one as hard when you think about it from an external perspective. But when you know that a state that doesn't necessarily want the best for you, is constantly watching you and knows every step you take on a daily basis, that's scary. And there's some really interesting philosophies who have written about it. Where you take Foucault or Bentham about the idea of a panoptical prison where you have a single, it's a panoptical prison, effectively you have prison with a single guard in the middle that is in a glass tower and can observe every single inmate, but none of the inmates know whether they're being watched or not.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Where the fear of being watched and not knowing whether you're being watched or not is actually enough of a power to affect your human behavior. And so that's one of the big thesis that Fikup put out. And when you portray that back into what happened in a lot of these surveying states. You had this government, which was all powerful because they didn't have to watch you, but they knew that you were afraid of the fact that maybe they are watching you. And that affects everything. That affects from how you're speaking, who you're talking to. And then it goes a lot further where they take away passports. So family didn't have got their passports taken away for a pretty long time until the regime fell, I couldn't travel. You depend on the state for food rations, for food stamps. Across the board, it's it's a very difficult place to live in.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  And one of the main realizations is that, well, one might think whatever one might think about the different regimes, but quite often they start as a almost attractive sort of vision that one can sell. They get they get in power somehow. They get in power somehow. And then they they lure you in with something that might look like an interesting sort of movement to be a part of. And very quickly, because of how human nature behaves and because some of these people are absolutely despicable people. They turn it into a into a terrible state to live in. And so that's why I think some of the web three ideas are so interesting because you move from you shift away from this idea that, oh, we won't be evil to, oh, you just can't be evil.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  No matter what you try to do. And I think that's one of the aspects that resonates the most with me where I don't quite want to equate sort of the tech giants today with some of the most horrendous government entities that have existed over the past century, but

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Chris Dixon has a really good post about this, where most platforms are in a sort of attract, attract, attract mode early on to get that critical velocity in terms of users. And once they have them, they obviously try to extract stuff. And then that switch happens and all of a sudden the user is dependent on the state or dependent on the platform and you can't really move away from it or very difficultly. And they have full power of what they do to you. They can sell on your data. They can charge increased prices. They can block off your API access. If you're a developer working on top of another platform. And that radically changes lives and people, obviously, if you're a sort of corporate shareholder, you're happy because they're higher profits. Or they have more control or they have more stickiness amongst their users. But it's a radically big, bigger problem than that. It's sort of a human problem.

• 11:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think that, um, so let's take, uh, let's take, go away from the social networks for a second and let's go to like a Netflix, right? So Netflix announces, hey, we're going to increase prices and there's relatively no impact on the business, right? In terms of people leaving or not even really a, an uproar, right? I would argue that in that scenario, what they're doing is they were actually underpriced, right? And there was a lot of price insensitivity and now Netflix is getting closer to price equilibrium, right? Or price discovery. I don't think that's a very controversial idea.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  No, that's perfectly fine. And generally, I think if you're paying for a service, it means you probably like it. And you're happy to pay for it. And, um, yeah, we have a Netflix subscription. And when they increased the price, it made no difference to us because the value we get out of Netflix, we consider to be significantly larger. My bigger problem sits with, um, with companies and business models, if you will, that, uh, sit on the idea of, hey, here's something for free. Here is something that everybody else is doing, so you should be doing it as well. And that grows with sort of network effects, um, and it grows quite exponentially. And then once they have had that growth and sort of locked you in, then they say, oh, by the way, your data, we're going to sell that on. Oh, by the way, your sort of location tracking. Yeah, some companies are interested in that. And because we don't charge you, we're going to have to sell that on as well. And very quickly you get to a point, and sort of it's small erosions one after another.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  But quickly you get to a point where not only do they know you better than you might know yourself, uh, but they might be able to predict better what you could do in the future. Because you're, you're acting as an emotional human being and they have a rational sort of data-driven approach to it.

• 12:31Anthony Pompliano?

  It, it's this whole idea, somebody said to me one time, uh, no one would sign up for any social network, whether it's Twitter, Facebook, you know, Instagram, whatever. If on the front page it said, you know, give us your email and we're going to sell it to all these people, you know, get, sign up and we're going to track where everywhere you go, right? Like, like if all of the disclosures were kind of on the homepage, no one would sign up.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  And that's probably, probably the reason for which disclosures are 59 pages of small text to really disincentivize anyone from reading them.

• 12:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, and also I would argue that not only are they presented in a interesting way, right? Or a, or a hard to comprehend way, um, but also a lot of that stuff, to your point, comes later on, right? Nobody. I don't know of a single social network or social product where people said, hey, on the day we start, we're going to do X, Y, or Z, right? And the other thing too is, you know, I always push back on people who say that Facebook sells data, right? They don't sell your personal data in the sense that people think, right? It's not like, hey, somebody, you know, an academic comes and, or a researcher comes and says, hey, give me the data on Max. What they do, which-

• 13:37Speaker 01

  No researcher probably cares enough for that, but they care about an aggregate about a population.

• 13:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Exactly. So they're doing that type of stuff in terms of aggregate anonymized that, but they're also doing, they're doing targeting, right? And the reason why I think the difference is so important is selling my data, right? To your point is, I don't know if it's really that important to 99% of people who go buy it, right? Maybe there's somebody who's trying to hurt me or something that could buy it and it would be powerful. But the targeting, to me, is there's a psychological component of it changes the content you see, right? It kind of inhibits or acts on what you do in the real world, right? It convinces you to go places or buy things or interact with people. Like that, the repercussions of that, I think, is not well studied and frankly, not well understood.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and especially if you, if you take it to a, to a political level where, I mean, as trying to be intellectually honest with ourselves, generally, we try to get out of our echo chambers, which, you know, I suffer quite a bit with Twitter where it seems that everybody has similar interests to me, but getting the other side of the table is always important. And if you live on social media and you get all of your information from social media, you obviously get targeted into these echo chambers, specifically the ones that either sort of corporates or social media platforms or buyers of their ad targeting systems want you to be in. And that creates, well, I think it creates a lot of the problems that we've had with political ecosystem recently, which is not necessarily that the wrong side won. You might have whatever opinion you might have on that, whether it's Brexit, whether it's Macron, whether it's Trump and Clinton.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  But the whole problem is that- The large majority of the campaigns were driven by fear. So they were driven by what you don't want. I'm pretty certain that in the US, the large majority of Trump voters were voting against Clinton and the large majority of Clinton voters were voting against Trump. In the UK, we've had the same thing with Brexit, where I think a lot of people who voted in favor of Brexit were basically voting against the European Union and those evil people in Brussels and Luxembourg who are dictating what they could and couldn't do. Equally with Macron in France. Macron came a bit out of nowhere and got a fair bit of popularity, but he ultimately won because people rallied against Marine Le Pen, which was a sort of a far-right candidate. And when you have that targeting that is so specific and you have someone who is digitally native and can actually use that to their advantage, it changes politics, which is probably

• 15:56Speaker 01

  the biggest stage in the world.

• 15:58Anthony Pompliano?

  And the part that has really shocked me, I think, is how effective some candidates are compared to everyone else. So in the US, if you take, you know, one person on each side of the aisle, you've got President Trump and then you've got AOC, right? And both of them have a skill at using these platforms and tools that most of their peers don't have. And, you know, look, again, it's people on both sides of the aisle, they can do all this. And what surprised me is how well-received it is by the audience, right? To somebody like you and I, who, you know, it's our job to understand technology, how people use it, etc. It's very obvious, right? Look, you're using things to go viral and you're spreading a message. It's, you know, propaganda from one category, it's marketing from the other category, right?

• 16:43Anthony Pompliano?

  But I'm shocked at how few of their contemporaries have picked up on what's happening and figured out how to do it themselves. And brings this question of like, are digital natives, right? Even though, you know, take Trump is a little bit older, obviously, but people who understand how to use these tools, are they at such an advantage that nobody else can catch up?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  If you look at sort of the hearings that they had with Mark Zuckerberg, it was impressive to hear to the extent to which some of the members did not necessarily understand how the Facebook technology works at the highest level. And so indeed, there is a huge advantage to being able to use the digital route, whether it's in politics, whether it's in economics, whether it's in business. You see a lot of companies that have sprung out of basically their marketing campaigns. I mean, you've Mentioned on the podcast recently, I believe that you're a marketing or an advertising business that is monetizing via an investment fund.

• 17:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  And that resonated a lot because ultimately what you're doing is you're gaining attention. And you are indeed making the best investments because of that attention. You tweeted yesterday or two days ago, so I'm looking to make a seed investment. What do you recommend I should look at? And all of a sudden you had over 500 recommendations to look at.

• 17:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  If people talk about proprietary deal flow when you're fundraising, what better proprietary deal flow will you have than that?

• 17:58Anthony Pompliano?

  It is, so it's now over, for those that didn't see it, I tweeted and said, I'm looking to make a pre-seed investment, basically, you know, what company should I look at or what company should I invest in? And it's now we're 1,500 different companies recommended now.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  There you go, I checked yesterday, it was 500.

• 18:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, well, so here's the crazy part is I think there will be five or less that are things that we are excited about and want to invest in, right? So it's a very small number, but to your point, we found out of those 1,500, there's probably a thousand we didn't know about.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And it's just there, we're talking about a global world where there's people in every corner building companies and nobody knows about them, right? It's literally people are DMing me and saying, hey, you know, I work in a WeWork in whatever city in the world and I haven't told anyone what I'm building yet, I'd love for you to take a look. Pretty cool. The flip side of that is how do you synthesize all that information, right?

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Pick up the curation game thereafter.

• 18:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Exactly.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  But at least you've got the funnel open, you've got the attention, if you sort of transcribe that to a political game, you've got the eyeballs of the population looking at you. Then it's up to you to convince them, it's up to you and your investor role to curate and find the right ones.

• 19:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  But if you don't have that sort of funnel open in the first place, then you're not going to get there.

• 19:13Anthony Pompliano?

  And there's an element to like for an investor, you like take that scenario, right? So I've got to look through 1,500 companies and try to find the ones that I like. When you're a voter, there's only two or three candidates, right? So there's much more kind of tribalism in the sense that you only got three positions and most people have been convinced that it is unpatriotic to not vote.

• 19:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Right, in the sense that if you don't like any of the three candidates, absolving from voting is not appropriate. And what that does is then it forces you to vote against somebody. Because who do I not like the most out of these two or three? Okay, I'm gonna vote for the other side, right?

• 19:50Speaker 01

  So in Luxembourg, given it's such a small country, actually, the vote is an obligation, a legal obligation. So it's not even about being patriotic. But to the point of you end up voting against someone instead of for someone, that pushes the messaging into a certain direction. And it pushes the messaging into the direction of defamation, of attacks, of insults, which moves away from the sort of an honest political discourse that we used to have in the past. And the thing that worries me there is if you look at sort of what Hannah Arendt mentioned in one of her books, which I find a fascinating idea, is that the main premise for a totalitarian regime, whether it be on the left or on the right, is the moment when people mix up reality and fantasy. And unfortunately, once you're getting into a defamation game,

• 20:34Speaker 01

  especially with these mass channels of social media or of news, which 10, 20 years ago were able to reach an order of magnitude less people at half the speed, you move towards actually sort of blurring those lines between reality and fantasy. And that's a massive problem. Well, starting now with sort of fake stories, but very quickly we'll get into deep fake videos, where you will not be able to tell the difference between a fake video of Obama saying something versus the real one.

• 21:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Yeah, look, the deep fake stuff is fascinating because it's not just audio. It's not just video. It's a whole bunch of this stuff. And the part that, you know, I keep going back to is if you have any amount of content on the internet, right? I mean, whether it's writing, your voice, video, at some point that is going to be able to be manipulated. And the part that I think scares me is less like go to a court of law, right? Because in a court of law, there's gonna be experts and there's gonna be technology that validates or doesn't validate. It's more of the like, social discourse, right?

• 21:42Speaker 01

  That spends thirty seconds, glances over it, sees it, yeah, it looks good enough, checks out, I believe.

• 21:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and it's your friend who's mad that you said something, right? There's no court of law, there's no technology validation, right? It's just, oh, that guy's an asshole now because I can't believe he said that, fake video, right?

• 21:58Speaker 01

  It can be on a friendship, it can be on a small business, it can be a large business, it can, it really crosses the cross of scales.

• 22:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, you know, romantic relationships, all this stuff. Like, there will be serious ripple effects from the ability to create fake content.

• 22:11Anthony Pompliano?

  And, again, it's, we know it's gonna be a problem, we probably can't stop it, right? And the part, to me, that is really interesting is, while we are accelerating technology, we spend ninety-plus percent of our intellectual horsepower accelerating that technology, and we spend very, very little of it trying to understand the impacts on society, right? And we kind of just deal with that later.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Exactly, I mean, that's being sort of the move-fast-break-things theory in Silicon Valley. But to the point of what we can do actually against, call it deepfake videos, I think part of it is that, historically, you can really replicate my speech because it was live, online. Indeed, you can replicate it, you can create a copy, you can slightly modify it, you can create a hundred copies, you can flood someone with them. And so there, the idea of digital scarcity comes in. What if I put up a video and I sign it with my private keys? And all of a sudden, that video is unique, and unless a video of me is signed with my private keys, it's not, it doesn't come from me. So, once sort of the UX problem goes away from that, I see a future where with digital scarcity, you're able to actually have much better control around these fake videos, fake audio, fake text, et cetera.

• 23:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. How, how does your guys' investment thesis play into all this? So let's talk about like, what you guys are excited about investing in thematically, and then we can talk about some of the nuances.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely, so the way, sort of, we see the Web3 ecosystem is, well, we call it Web3 as a whole, but I think there's three core theses that are sort of playing out. There's the sound money thesis, which I'm a big fan of, I think Bitcoin got pretty much all into the space in the first place. But it's not really the space of venture fund anymore because Bitcoin is a large... Market cap, it's also liquid market cap, you don't really get a relationship with the team because, well, who knows who Satoshi is, but also, and there's a whole bunch of different contributors to it. And so the other two that we probably spend most of our time on is, on one side, you've got sort of the Web3 thesis, and on one side, you've got the digital asset thesis. On the digital asset front, I have no doubt

• 24:09Speaker 01

  I will agree on this, but I don't see a future where there is not a digital version of every single physical good out there. Because if you can have a version which is flexible, it's software, so it's infinitely programmable, it's divisible, it has a much higher liquidity pool, it's easily transferable across the globe, it just makes sense that every single good will be digitized at some point. And then what you open up with that is sort of this whole open finance stack where not only can you create and custody assets for much cheaper, but also you can transfer them across the globe, and you can build applications on top of that. So if you think about what MakerDAO has done today, you've got, you can open a CDP, put some ETH in and get a loan programmatically without having to interface with any human at any point in time. But in the future, when they

• 24:51Speaker 01

  go to multilateral die, what if you can invoice your, you can tokenize your invoice, or you can tokenize your house, all of a sudden you can lock that up in your CDP, and then you can unlock working capital with your unpaid invoice, and that sort of unlocks a huge amount of different workflows and work capital that is just locked up in today's economy. So that's sort of one of them. And the second one is sort of the Web3 thesis, which is that if you think back to sort of how the web grew, Web1 was largely focused on e-commerce. It was desktop-first, and it was very heavily dependent on expensive infrastructure that was custom-built and dedicated for each individual business. And so that slowly shifted to Web2, when you had a few things that weren't included, you had a social layer, which meant that people could trust each other, recommendations

• 25:34Speaker 01

  became possible, and so you were able to interact with people across the globe via trusted intermediaries, but you were not sort of limited to the people around you that you trusted. Secondly, there was the mobile with the introduction of the iPhone mainly, but the mobile revolution, which meant that instead of sitting on your desktop a couple of hours a day, all of a sudden you had your phone in your pocket pretty much every, every hour of the day. And so you were interacting with Web2. Much higher frequency. And thirdly, there was the cloud aspect, which meant that actually spinning up a business from a developer perspective or founder perspective became a lot cheaper because you didn't need to have that sort of dedicated infrastructure. You could iterate very quickly, experiment, and that's how a lot of these businesses sort of came to fruition. And it's sort of the combination of those three pillars or layers that led to have

• 26:17Speaker 01

  likes of Ubers and Airbnbs of the day, of today, which if you think back 10 years ago or 15 years ago, it would have been incredible or unbelievable that you could convince someone to get into a stranger's car, simply because you pulled out an application on your phone and called for them. And we believe that sort of the next wave of Web three will largely be built on three similar layers. One of them is that sort of this proliferation of edge computing is the computing stack has been pushed out to the very limits of the edge. This in your IoT devices on a farm in Kansas, it's on your health tracking device, it's indeed on your phone, your car, your house. And so the amount of data points that are generated by these IoT devices has sprung up massively, it's an order of magnitude higher. And on the sort of opposite side of that, you've got machine learning algorithms and

• 27:00Speaker 01

  sort of a renaissance of AI, which means that actually some of these machine learning algorithms are able to do efficient things with the data finally. And between that, you've got this fabric or a mesh, which is a decentralized data structure, which means that you don't have tech giants today that silo all their data and effectively are the only ones to benefit from it. But instead you can, you're able to bring in the long tail of data generators, which are able to monetize and sell their data on to some of these machine learning algorithms or data scientists, or, and this can be humans, machines, animals in the future. And that first of all unlocks a huge amount of value in terms of what becomes possible to interact, what, who can interact in this economy. But also it really fundamentally shifts the power structure from what I mentioned earlier.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  It moves you from these tech giants that are promising that they won't be evil to all of a sudden you've got this peer to peer architecture, which just fundamentally can't be evil. And so that's the, one of the main thesis around which we've built a fund. We think that. Early on, mostly be focused on developers. Right now, the developer tool stack is probably one of the ones that's getting the most traction. Over time, we'll move into sort of open finance is starting to take off as well. The healthcare space is prone to have a huge amount of personal data that you don't want to have sort of siloed in with tech giants, but rather you want to be able to monetize that yourself or not even monetize it all, but keep it private and only selectively share certain data points when you go see a certain doctor, but not leave that data with them. The supply chain space, the automotive space, especially the autonomous automotive space,

• 28:24Speaker 01

  they're all prone to really benefit from these new sort of shared data structures.

• 28:28Anthony Pompliano?

  How much of what you're excited about in the Web three world is Web two things that are kind of updated or modernized versus these are brand new solutions in tech that did not exist in Web two, but they're solving some of the same problems. They're attacking from a different avenue that that just looks different.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a really interesting question and ultimately I think we'll always end up taking the steps of, well, just like the very first applications of digital was to digitize the New York Times. And that was an interesting thing to do, but it doesn't didn't fundamentally change the world. And so I think it's important to take a step back and look at sort of the history of business models that have evolved via that Web two and try to draw some analogies to Web three as well and see where they where they might take us. If you look at Web two, some of the very early business models that arose were indeed some digitizing content, which seemed simple, might make it slightly more distributable, get a higher reader base and so it was interesting. But ultimately, the businesses that really took off were business models that were not really imaginable before. If you consider open source, open source is contributing about $400 billion worth of value to the economy on a yearly basis.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  If you follow this certain reports, if you consider a sort of the sharing economy, it would never have been possible to even imagine that you might share your apartment with a random stranger because you let them in via an application. Even the SaaS economy, it was never imaginable that you could spring up your sort of cloud based infrastructure and on demand and grow your business or grow your infrastructure with your business. And so a lot of these evolved from positions that seemed to be impossible at the sort of ant steps and now they've become evident. And if you look sort of trace back now as to where the early Web three business models lie, the very first one, I guess, was issuing your own assets in a sort of currency asset type. So Bitcoin being the first one, at some point Ethereum followed Monero, Zcash, et cetera.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  And then some of the business models that were built on top of that, you had the sort of blockstreams of the world and consensus of the world who said, "Okay, we're going to hold a bunch of the native assets. Blockstream holds a bunch of Bitcoin, consensus a bunch of Ether, and we're just going to make the network more valuable. So our business model is not revenue generating, but rather it's just depreciation of value of that native asset that we hold." And then you had a business model on top of that, which said, "Hey, this asset is super volatile. Why don't we tax volatility?" And that sort of exchanges, the custodians, that enabled that and took fees to traditional business models. And then we started exploring what's possible outside of currency. Very first sort of utility token models, which I'm not a big fan of the word utility token, but it's just been aggregated into that with repayment tokens, where people said, "Hey, we're going to create a two-sided marketplace, and that's going to be on a peer-to-peer basis. People will be able to interact with us,

• 31:04Speaker 01

  but they need to use our currency to be able to trade between themselves." There's a lot of fair criticisms of that. People try to apply MV equals PQ as an equation of exchange to value that. Fundamentally, I don't think that really applies. First of all, it's a 110-year-old equation, or a sort of economic identity. But also you've got people like Milton Friedman saying that actually the V part of MV equals PQ is just a fudge factor to make the equation work. And so when people criticize the velocity problem, it's not really that applicable. Yeah. And ultimately, I think a lot of projects have realized that there is no rational reason for value to accrue to such payment tokens right now, or at least it hasn't played out yet. And so people are moving away from that. One of the most interesting areas of our business models that I think fundamentally changes the game are work tokens. We can consider them to be sort of supply-side focused. Explain what those are.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  So taking an analogy, maybe the easiest way is to consider them like a taxi medallion, given we are in New York after all right now. You hold a taxi medallion, you get the right to drive a taxi, and you get revenues. Those revenues are paid to you in dollars or in whatever currency, stablecoin you might want. But you're not being paid in that native asset. And so that native asset is purely focused on coordinating the supply side of a network. And so you've got networks like Keep Network, like Augur, and like Zepplin, where focused on providing certain services where people can then comment on the network, use them, pay in dollars. And the reason for which they accrue value is that as more and more people start using the network, there's more and more revenues flowing to all of these holders of these assets. And so...

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Given there's limited supply of these assets, people will buy them and their value should go up theoretically or in a rational manner. And now we've got this whole sort of staking economy that's building up around that, where people are buying these assets, staking them to get some part of the block rewards, but also part of the fees. And the reason why we're so excited about them is not only do they have a very rational value accrual mechanism, where you can see, okay, it's not a central company that's getting all these revenues, but the collective of all these asset holders, which are providing work to the network, are getting a certain amount of fees paid out to them. And you can probably build your valuation model based on a DCF on that model. But also, it's actually, it's a fantastic coordination tool. It's, and it will only really work if it provides better or cheaper service than sort of centralized entities do.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  But if you consider a sort of filecoin, for example, they're unlocking all of this free space that is sitting idle on your computer, on my computer, on my phone, that was just never used before. And so, given that it's not being used for anything else, I can massively undercut any centralized entity that is paying for every single sort of gigabytes that they provide. And so, the coordination mechanism, coupled with the fact that you have a sort of a clear revenue stream for all of these token holders, makes a lot of sense from a business model perspective. And going forward, we'll, we'll see a huge amount of other experimentation. If you think about governance tokens, if you think in terms of business models, if you think about providing UX and UI to some of these networks, I mean, so Augur went live a few months ago. It's one of the sort of first networks to actually go live. Very quickly, you had business building on top of that. You have Vale, you have Flux in Europe, you have Gesser in Europe,

• 34:02Speaker 01

  who are building the interface to be able to interact with this network. And they will try to extract some small fee, but they are providing a lot of value to the user.

• 34:09Anthony Pompliano?

  And the thought process here is to take like a veil, etc., is the network, the infrastructure that's built there, the mechanism is applicable in many different use cases to different audiences. And what these people are building on top of those networks is very targeted interfaces for a specific use case to a specific audience, right? It's almost like the network itself, the product market fit is, is found through an interface, right? And those interfaces being built on top then have to find the product market fit between like the network and the user, right? It's almost like a user network. Fit, I guess, is found by building a specific interface.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Absolutely. If you take the case of Augur, you might have users who just want to bet on sports gaming because they can't free other means. You might have other users who want to hedge against currency risk. And so obviously, they're very different users. And so you'll have different platforms that will build up

• 35:03Anthony Pompliano?

  On top of the net.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Front end, on top of the network for those different users. But also, the other thing it does is for the user, it really removes the platform risk. Because if I have a large sort of hedge on currency on the Augur network and I've placed that via Veil, but all of a sudden Veil shuts down, well, I can probably retrieve that via Gesser. I can go straight to Augur and interact with that. And so it removes the risk that the company that you're interacting with is able to shut you down as a business.

• 35:27Anthony Pompliano?

  It's super interesting. What areas of crypto do you think people are not talking about but should be paying more attention to?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Not talking about should be paying more attention. I think a really interesting topic that is starting to creep into conversation and it's actually a pretty controversial one. When you sort of see the conversation going on about it, but is the idea of sustainability of open source software development. And given most of crypto is so, well, I should say all, I would like to say all, but unfortunately not, of crypto is open source.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  It's a big problem. So a lot of people come from it with the Bitcoin angle where one of the core characteristics is its immutability. There are 21, there will be 21 million Bitcoin that will never change. And there are questions of what happens once the block reward sort of dies out. Will transaction fees be high enough to incentivize miners to come provide hash power to secure the network? That will happen sort of far enough down the line, but a more urgent or imminent conversation is around Ethereum. There's a lot of discussion around ERC1789 by Kevin Iwaki from Gitcoin actually put that out recently. Of how do you incentivize the core developers? Because right now, 100% of block reward goes to miners. Why is there not 20% of that that goes to the core developers who are actually creating the network?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  It just makes sense. People are maintaining the network, they get paid. People are creating or developing or improving the network, they should also get paid. And there's a few projects that are trying to solve that. Gitcoin is one. There is Moloch DAO by Amin. There's a company called OS coin and that we actually invested in. It's a fantastic team. Lifted us and Alexi who are thinking about it on a broader scale, but building a decentralized GitHub. So you remove the sort of platform dependence from GitHub, but you also have a incentivization layer on top of it where based off of the dependencies of different GitHub repositories or open source software projects, they get paid out as part of the block reward. And there's some incredible stats around that where 65% of all open source

• 37:23Speaker 01

  projects are maintained by one or two people. 94% of actually developers are using open source software. So you've got this whole economy, our entire economy is built on open source software from the Facebooks to the Googles to the Amazons of the world. They're all using open source software and yet a lot of these projects, 93% of NPM packages have one maintainer. And this is one maintainer who's not being paid, who's doing it as a hobby. And they might very well quit the next day because they're getting harassed by online communities. And so finding a sustainable model to support these these maintainers, I think is one of the most important problems that not enough people are talking about.

• 37:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. What um, what do you think is overhyped area of crypto? Like something that everyone is talking about that they should shut up about.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Overhyped area of crypto. Uh, well, I think prices on a some day to day basis. And obviously we have a different perspective given we're taking a venture capital approach. And so we're, we're all investments we make are with a multi-year outlook. But on a day to day basis, I think prices are unfortunately the most talked about aspect.

• 38:17Anthony Pompliano?

  It's easiest to measure, right?

• 38:18Speaker 01

  It's easiest measure. Is it the best one? I don't know. I mean, prices have been down a huge amount this year. If you consider what is actually going on in the ecosystem, what development is going on, it's all sort of to the top right. If you look at sort of Ethereum addresses, there are 60 million Ethereum addresses, 30 million added in the past year. So they have doubled. If you look at sort of unspent transaction output on Bitcoin, they're at the all time high now, again, after the sort of the peak in in January 2018. And if you look at solidity developers on Ethereum, you've got sort of Zeppelin OS. They've reached over 500,000 downloads of open Zeppelin. Truffle Ganesh have over a million downloads. If you look at Maker, which is actually one of the probably one of the. The few projects that have hit product market fit in some shape or form, they've issued more loans than Lending Club did in five years in their first year. And interestingly, if you look at the dates, you have got that chart which goes from sort of zero to 200 million.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  And that chart starts on January 2018, which is the very peak of the bubble. So the price has gone downwards from there. And all of a sudden, you've got sort of this product which just takes off from that point in time. And so I think a lot of the developments are super positive, even if you look at sort of corporates. Samsung is now going to be issuing their key management service to all of their S10 phones. That's what 10 to 50 million people that will have key management built into their phones. You've got JP Morgan, which is sort of launching their own coin. Whatever you might think about what the JP Morgan coin might be worth, we don't even know how it's going to be, what exactly it will do in the end. But that's a stamp of approval from the bank where sort of the CEO a few years ago was saying that Bitcoin was doomed to fail and we would never touch it. All of a sudden, you've got them issuing their own central currency, well, their own decentralized currency. And so from that perspective, I think there's a huge amount of positive developments.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  And yet people are talking about price, which have indeed been down. Now, I guess the past two months have been the first two positive months in a row since June last year. But still, I wish we talked more about technical development and less about price.

• 40:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Before I wrap up, I was asking a rapid fire set of questions. What do you think is the most important company in crypto?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  What's important company?

• 40:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Other than fabric, of course.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  I wouldn't even claim that.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Probably ConsenSys and Parity.

• 40:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, why those two?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  I think, so again, just sort of coming back to the idea of pricing. I'm sure a lot of people probably think Coinbase and Binance are the most important companies in crypto. They're great because they bring access to the volatility and people can trade on it. But they're not fundamentally doing as much work as ConsenSys and Parity in developing the underlying technology. It is somewhat, so my view is somewhat focused on Ethereum, and I admit that. But Parity has done a huge amount, and we are investors in Polkadot, so that's full disclosure there. But Parity has done a huge amount of work for the Ethereum ecosystem. They built one of the first clients, they've built a lot of solutions early on. And they've been doing that relentlessly for the past couple of years. ConsenSys have built a majority of tools that we use on a day to day basis on sort of the Ethereum network. If you consider it as an Ethereum, Truffle and Ganesh, which most of the Ethereum ecosystem is built upon.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  It's been built by ConsenSys. And Joe Lubin has put a tremendous amount of work and capital into this space. And I don't think that gets recognized enough.

• 41:12Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you feel is the one regulation you would change or improve if you could?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  I think there could be a lot more clarity on regulation. It's an interesting sort of comparison between the US and Europe. In the US, you've got the SEC and CFTC that are pushing things forward slowly. In Europe, you've got a bunch of nation states that want to become the hotspot for crypto. Just like Switzerland and Luxembourg were the hotspot for banking. A lot of smaller countries are realizing that there's a big opportunity to be the most crypto-friendly ecosystem for founders to come launching. So you've got Malta, you've got Gibraltar, you've got Switzerland, which have all issued very clear statements in terms of regulation of what is a security, what isn't a security, how you can issue it or how you can launch a network. And equally, you've got some of the bigger countries, France. The Minister of the Economy, Bruno Le Maire, has mentioned that he wants France to be sort of the hotspot in Europe for crypto.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Britain has made some pretty clear advancements to creating a crypto task force to provide clarity on what assets are securities, what assets are not securities, how they're taxed, et cetera. So all of these things seem like they're moving in the right direction because of that competitive nature. Whereas in the US, it feels like it's slightly slower because they know they have no competition. If you're based in the US, you're going to be launching in the US anyways, and so they can take their time. And I think that's slightly hampering the US because founders are not certain what they can launch, what they can't launch, and they might move away from the US over time. And we'll see how that plays out, but I think a lot of clarity would be much better.

• 42:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Makes sense, yeah. What most important book you've ever read?

• 42:40Speaker 01

  I'd probably go with Milan Kundera, "Nasich Portable, Les Jardins de Lettres" in French, so it's the under.

• 42:45Anthony Pompliano?

  What was that?

• 42:47Speaker 01

  In translation, it's "The Unbearable Lightness of Being."

• 42:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, explain.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  It's, as I'm not a big fan of the business books, so it's not none of that. It's a Czech writer who moved away because of the communist regime there, moved to France, started writing in French. But there's two core ideas which I think really matter or sort of stand out to me in that book. One of them is that he sort of negates on Nietzsche's idea of the eternal return. I think we constantly live our lives comparing to what it could have been if I had done that, what would have happened, should I, could I, would I? Type mentality, and he sort of pushes back on that, is that there is no eternal return, there is no hundreds, thousands or millions of sort of parallel realities where you can compare to. The moment something happens, you should. Forget about it. It sort of loses its importance because it's done and you should move on to the next thing.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  And the second aspect I really like about that book and sort of has shaped my view quite a bit is on the political nature is that it's sort of three different characters that are living through life in Czechoslovakia during a communist regime and all of them come to the same realization that the political party is very rarely or almost never in favor of the individual. They always try to subvert you via the same means, whether they be on the left or on the right. And ultimately, they push you to take actions based off of what you don't like, what you dislike and sort of what we discussed earlier on. And I think unfortunately, a lot of that is playing out today. And I think a lot of literature is has been a really good predictor of that. So other books I doubt that as of nineteen eighty four by Orwell.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Actually, a recent one that we gifted out to a few of our close friends was On Tyranny by Miles Snyder, which is sort of twenty lessons from the twentieth century, mainly focused on the communist and Nazi regimes.

• 44:29Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm reading it right now. It's actually fascinating.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  It's incredible how much, how many parallels there are to today.

• 44:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of parallels, parallel universes, aliens, real or not?

• 44:44Speaker 01

  We were introduced by Richard Burton. I hope Richard Burton will introduce me to a whole bunch of other aliens. He claims they are real and they live on Earth. So in terms of parallel universes, I think the probabilistic chance that there are no aliens is infinitely small. The question of whether we want to meet them yet, I think probably not.

• 45:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Why not?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Well, partly due to the fact that I watched Life with Jacob Hillhal recently and they have this small character called Calvin, which is turns into this horrible monster and so that changed my mind, but because we can barely deal with ourselves on planet Earth as a single human society. I don't want to have to think about how we will deal with people who have different or people or aliens who have different views and different mannerisms and maybe overwhelmingly more power than us.

• 45:35Anthony Pompliano?

  I think that makes sense. And it's also, we don't know what we don't know, right?

• 45:42Speaker 01

  We have to figure our stuff out on ourselves here first before we start exploring the rest. I think space travel is extremely exciting and what will come out of it will maybe lead to technical innovations that we couldn't even imagine, but I think we should be careful about it.

• 45:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Would you rather go to space or go to the depths of the ocean?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Neither is possible. Generally, both of them include sort of small capsules and long travel time. I'm not a big fan of small spaces. And so

• 46:11Anthony Pompliano?

  You're more like, I got a good life. Let me just hang out here on the crust of the earth.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  But if if I had to take one, probably that's a space, depths of the ocean.

• 46:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Depths of the ocean over space.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  You'd probably sort of float back up at some point, whereas in space, you might float away and never come back.

• 46:28Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a good point. Like, whether you're alive or not probably doesn't matter as much as like, at least on the on the ocean, they've got a set area to look for you.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 46:37Anthony Pompliano?

  That makes sense. What one question you have for me to close it out?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  So I think you've probably spent a lot of time, just like us, trying to convince people who don't necessarily believe in the space yet, or don't see that it's value accrual, or don't see its merits. What is the one narrative that you've seen work best across the board for sort of people who haven't been down?

• 46:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. So I'll separate this into public and private markets, public being on liquid crypto. The narrative there is just, we're talking about non-correlated or low correlation assets that have an asymmetric return profile. So whether you believe in these assets being valid or not, whenever you have those criteria or aspects to an asset, if you believe in modern portfolio theory and you put those assets into that portfolio, there's benefits that come with it, right? And so I'm kind of making the, what I call the investor's investment argument of like, if you are a pure investor and you look at unemotional decisions around assets, emotion can be both bullish and bearish, right? And so just the non-correlation and the asymmetric return profile,

• 47:43Anthony Pompliano?

  I think, really resonates with investors. And then in the private markets, I, look, somebody told me very early on when I started investing, follow the talent. Just if you follow the talent, they'll lead you to the holy world, to the holy grail. And

• 47:59Anthony Pompliano?

  And every time I've ever done that, we have been very happy with the result. And when I've strayed from that, we have not been happy with the result. Right. So, so there's this element of like, it is more true than even you you admit to yourself once you know that. And the argument I make is, look, the smartest people in the world are rushing in to build this and capital is following them. And anytime you have that, you know, just density of intellectual capital going somewhere and also the financial capital following that that momentum is very hard to overcome or break away from. And so we think that there's a lot of innovation, a lot of value that's going to be built here. And it just is that intellectual and financial capital that that kind of is the the tailwind, if you will, that that really pushes us forward.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Got it. That's what it's that level experimentation will not lead to nothing.

• 48:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And it also, you notice I didn't have to say anything about crypto or blockchain or Bitcoin or any of that stuff. And, you know, look, we get into the weeds with, you know, plenty of investors, but I do think those two narratives or or stories around, look, this is true of every asset. Right. It doesn't matter. You could take Bitcoin out and put rocks, right? And if it's non-correlated and asymmetric, we would be saying the same thing. Right. If you look at private markets and anytime you can see a single vertical in the private markets where tons of innovation is happening because talent is coming in and capital is coming in, we would say the same thing. Right. And so it removes the the emotional attachment. And the part that I've been impressed with is the investors who can keep a sober mindset

• 49:25Anthony Pompliano?

  and be realistic and somewhat grounded end up be going from, I don't even understand this stuff, is it real to, oh, well, let's do that framework. I really believe and they lean in very hard, very quickly. And so it's been pretty cool to see that kind of flip that switch for a couple of investors and hopefully there'll be plenty more.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  It's a man on a mission to make more of this.

• 49:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Listen, we are all, we are all doing this together, but it is, it is fun. And look, you are, you're on another side of the world that frankly, there's probably not as many people being as loud about this as in the United States and in North America. So, so I'm incredibly impressed with what you guys are doing and I'll have to do this again to catch up after, if you guys make some more progress.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Looking forward to it. Thank you.

• 50:15Anthony Pompliano?

  One more word from our sponsor BlockFi. Their new interest account allows you to securely deposit your Bitcoin or Ether at BlockFi and receive 6% annual interest paid monthly in cryptocurrency. This rate actually compounds, so you receive a 6.2% APY, which is very attractive given the alternatives. So you can actually take your Bitcoin, you can deposit it with BlockFi and get paid an interest rate of 6% in return. Go check out blockfi.com/pomp. Again, blockfi.com/pomp to sign up and start earning interest on your crypto today. Hey everyone, Pomp here. If you liked this episode of Off the Chain and want to help us take crypto to the top

• 50:56Anthony Pompliano?

  of the Apple, Spotify, and other podcast charts, please do us a favor and rate, review, and subscribe. To review, simply go to the Off the Chain homepage, scroll down until you see the five blank stars. Taking 15 seconds to fill those stars in and leave a quick review goes a long way in helping us take the entire crypto ecosystem to the top of the charts. I appreciate you listening and see you next time on Off the Chain.