Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 29: Twenty-Nein

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 29: Twenty-Nein. Karen covered the family-annihilator John List and Georgia discussed Warriena Tagpuno Wright who fell 14 floors to her death. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Cash Flow Crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:37Speaker 00

  Quick break from the case. If there's a kid on your gift list this year, here's one you can close fast. Guardian is the number one kids' bike on the market with over 1 million happy riders and the easiest way to learn. They're lightweight with a wide-wheel base, so kids ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. Designed and assembled in the USA and named Wirecutter's Top Pick four years in a row. Save over 40% now. Plus, get over $120 in free accessories with every bike. That's guardianbikes.com.

• 1:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:37Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

• 1:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You see, every Wednesday, we transport you to a simpler time, back when the iPhone 7 was cutting-edge and Suicide Squad dominated the box office.

• 1:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. So join us as we take you back to August 11, 2016, because now you can basically all be Day 1 listeners.

• 1:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And today, we're recapping Episode 29, which at the time, we named 29 with the German spelling of the word "nine."

• 2:04Georgia Hardstark?

  "Twenty-nine," I think is how you pronounce it.

• 2:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Seems problematic to me in the light of 2025.

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  In the light of everything, everything is problematic.

• 2:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's very true.

• 2:14Georgia Hardstark?

  So let's listen to the intro to Episode 29.

• 2:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Welcome to My Favorite Murder.

• 2:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 2:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That is Georgia Hardstark.

• 2:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, no one can tell our voices apart still.

• 2:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, it's pretty weird.

• 2:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone sent us a, um, I love when the true, the hometown murders are people sending in like, I know secret information about the case you already covered.

• 2:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 2:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I know people from the whatever the fuck.

• 2:46Karen Kilgariff?

  We love that.

• 2:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And someone was like, last week, sent us one, it was like, Karen, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it was my case.

• 2:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And I was like, huh, I'm sorry.

• 2:55Karen Kilgariff?

  No, we're sorry to disappoint you. There's, that happens a lot when people talk about, I love when, I think they say like, Karen says, oh my fucking god, during, when Georgia's telling, whatever it was, it was like the reverse and I knew it was for sure, because it was like one of your phrases.

• 3:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Jesus fucking Christ.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  But, yeah, I mean, I, I just think it's precious.

• 3:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so weird. I feel like, I mean, we're such different people. There was a fucking thing on Facebook that was like, are you a Karen or a Georgia? Did you see that?

• 3:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 3:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And it made me sad.

• 3:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Why? Because I was like, nobody wants to be me?

• 3:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Were they both bad?

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  No, everyone loves you. And I'm not, I was just, everyone's like, I'm a Karen, but my best friend is a Georgia, so that's fine.

• 3:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm a Karen.

• 3:41Georgia Hardstark?

  How do we, and then people were, were like, it's funny how people will explain to other people how you can tell the difference between us, and it's that you sing everything.

• 3:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. That's me. And I also have a scratchy voice because sometimes, sometimes late at night I smoke cigarettes.

• 3:57Georgia Hardstark?

  You do not.

• 3:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I do.

• 3:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you, Karen?

• 3:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, sometimes. And you can tell, you can actually, you can tell how many I've been smoking, because like, right now, I've been smoking.

• 4:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know why I'm scandalized by this.

• 4:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you really?

• 4:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe it's because you never told me, and I feel like, I thought we knew, I thought I knew you.

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I don't.

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's also because it's such a special thing that you do alone, and I think it's wonderful that you have that time to yourself.

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, sometimes at my house, like, I'm home at the end of the night.

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And you have a great backyard. What else are you gonna use it for?

• 4:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I go sit in that backyard, sometimes I just stick my feet right in that pool.

• 4:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen, you're living. The life I want to live.

• 4:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty, I don't mind it, but it's also like, I'm tired and I don't get to drink anymore and I don't get to do anything anymore. So I'll just smoke a little hand rolled Dali Shag syrup.

• 4:45Georgia Hardstark?

  You used to hand roll them yourself?

• 4:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen, this is why everyone wanted to be you.

• 4:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I'm so fucking European.

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  They were saying like, Karen's a badass and I want to be, I think it's because I'm scared of everything and talk about therapy.

• 4:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all it is, is you are honest about your anxieties and I'm always like, just try to kill me, which is the most insane thing. Every once in a while it'll hit me where I'm like, oh, I've actually said that out loud. In permanently, these recordings are permanent. There's nothing we can do about it.

• 5:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I am.

• 5:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And I've actually been like, I don't care.

• 5:18Georgia Hardstark?

  When the end days come, there's gonna be no record of this, so it doesn't matter.

• 5:21Karen Kilgariff?

  When what happens?

• 5:22Georgia Hardstark?

  The end days come.

• 5:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:24Georgia Hardstark?

  This is all gonna be wiped off, but.

• 5:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, the grid's gonna go down and then it won't matter what's recorded because we won't be able to access it.

• 5:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Delta is the first fucking, is the first.

• 5:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Airplane line that'll go down?

• 5:34Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it just went down like yesterday.

• 5:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Delta what?

• 5:37Georgia Hardstark?

  They had like a blackout.

• 5:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 5:40Georgia Hardstark?

  At their main hub and everything was grounded and it's like.

• 5:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Across the country?

• 5:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they're like, there was just a glitch and you're like bullshit.

• 5:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Bullshit.

• 5:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Whenever I hear those things and it was like someone, there was just a glitch.

• 5:50Karen Kilgariff?

  No way.

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-uh.

• 5:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't even.

• 5:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 5:53Karen Kilgariff?

  There was, that was the lizard men that are underneath the Denver airport.

• 5:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They are.

• 5:58Karen Kilgariff?

  They're down there and they're fucking with the mainframe.

• 6:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Man.

• 6:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't even.

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  How much did you love, as soon as I heard this on Stranger Things, that they had a fucking MKUltra line, like storyline? Did you watch it all?

• 6:17Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I ha, I think I have like two left or three left.

• 6:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you been to the possible 11's mom's house yet?

• 6:27Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 6:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 6:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They they mentioned MKUltra in that.

• 6:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's why she's like that?

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because she was one of the people they were experimenting on. Has anyone listened to this? I don't want to, I don't want to spoil anything.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah, spoilers. Uh, okay, I missed that detail. I just thought.

• 6:44Georgia Hardstark?

  They say MKUltra in it.

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy shit.

• 6:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that makes me like it 1,000 times more.

• 6:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, I have to go back and get through. I have to be honest, when I binge watch shows, especially on Netflix, and you just can, like, it hit, enter on the blue box and you just keep going. There'll be times where I just fall asleep and I don't even know which one I'm on. I just wake up and keep watching whatever's on.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I have the kind of insomnia that you can't fall asleep in front of television. I've never fallen asleep in front of, maybe wrestling. That's Vince's fault.

• 7:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, we couldn't be more different. That's how I fall asleep every night. It's very bad for you to to sleep in front of the TV.

• 7:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, now, I wonder how bad it is. I I can't fall asleep now without listening to the Sleep With Me podcast.

• 7:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's good.

• 7:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I can't.

• 7:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You're his slave?

• 7:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm his slave.

• 7:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 7:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, so I wonder if someday they're gonna be like, it's worse than falling asleep to TV. Because he's infiltrating my dreams.

• 7:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Well, if he is from MKUltra, you're screwed.

• 7:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm kind of okay with it.

• 7:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you think he?

• 7:46Georgia Hardstark?

  He's so great.

• 7:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You're fine with it?

• 7:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm fine with it.

• 7:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever his agenda might be.

• 7:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, same with Elvis, when everyone, and no one is like, oh, they, you know, you get a virus from cats and it takes over your brain and makes you a zombie. I'm like, I don't care. He's so cute.

• 7:58Karen Kilgariff?

  He's so nice.

• 7:59Georgia Hardstark?

  He's so sweet.

• 8:00Karen Kilgariff?

  If he thinks I need to be a zombie, then I'll, you know, he knows what's best for me.

• 8:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, absolutely.

• 8:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 8:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And also, you know, you're gonna go, whether you're a zombie for a cat or you get hit by a bus, you're going to leave this earthly plane.

• 8:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So just accept it.

• 8:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. His head smells like a library book.

• 8:19Karen Kilgariff?

  The girl who. Was in love with her cat.

• 8:23Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Uh, do you have housekeeping?

• 8:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I have a housekeeping that makes me very happy.

• 8:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 8:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, because it's twofold housekeeping. It was a tweet that my hero, Nico Case, singer songwriter, Nico Case tweeted.

• 8:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You got a tiny little happy clap from Steven just now.

• 8:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay.

• 8:41Georgia Hardstark?

  We all love her. Love Nico Case.

• 8:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, don't tell me that the connection was lost and there was a loading error phone.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 8:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, basically she retweeted, um, this story. I'm pretty sure it was from the CBC about how their government, the Canadian government is now opening an investigation on all the missing Indigenous women in Canada. So that's like all the women. So you know, like Robert Pickton, I, I'm going to eventually do one on him.

• 9:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:09Karen Kilgariff?

  If you don't beat me to it. He's the pig farmer in Canada that was just murdering women and they, I think it was in the hundreds.

• 9:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Did he feed?

• 9:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's a bad one. It's so.

• 9:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I wouldn't tackle that. It's yours.

• 9:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Cause it's too dark?

• 9:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's too. It's too something for me, but I don't know what yet.

• 9:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Too many pigs?

• 9:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Too many pigs, man. No, it's just, um. Yeah, I don't know.

• 9:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, so there's.

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's too making a murderer.

• 9:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 9:41Georgia Hardstark?

  In a lot of different ways. Go ahead.

• 9:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, there's just a, there's been a bunch of, and this is very in America, I think our version of it is women of color, black women that get murdered. And it's just as if no one talks about it. Isn't you, you see all the little blonde girls are always on the news if they are go missing or are murdered.

• 10:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But it doesn't happen with black women. And so the Canadian version, I think, is Indigenous women, Indian women is the incorrect term for it. But, um, so the, there's the highway of tears where women go disappearing on it. Uh, Robert Pickton, they named another guy that I didn't recognize the name. I hope Pickton is the right last name. Anyway.

• 10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what? I want to amass murders because I feel like I won't give enough time to each of the women. I'd rather do, uh, this is what the victim was, who the victim was, their story.

• 10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Then here's who the murderer was. And it's like, and there's 19 women.

• 10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Yeah, no, then that's, this is bad.

• 10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's yours.

• 10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  But anyway, it's, it, it's like hundreds of indigenous, indigenous women have gone missing in the last, say, if I could open this article, I would, God, I would be accurate with my numbers. But no, that's okay.

• 10:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want to pause? I have, I can give you my wifi connection. I know you, every time you get upset that, let's pause it.

• 10:54Karen Kilgariff?

  The, no, no, no, no, it's fine. Cause the general idea is just what Nico Case was trying to get the word out about. And I, I retweeted it on our Twitter feed as well as just, the government is trying to do something about it. They're trying to find the women. They're trying to investigate the murders. They're trying to actually put a focus and say, these women are important, just as important as anybody else. And we're going to do something about this, which is humongous that, that a country, like on the whole, would just admit that they haven't up until this point. And now they're going to.

• 11:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible.

• 11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really great.

• 11:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's amazing.

• 11:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very hopeful to me about like this, it feels like a new era in crime. Thank you.

• 11:37Karen Kilgariff?

  The, the name of the article is just how an unflinching gaze on missing and murdered indigenous women might move Canada forward.

• 11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible.

• 11:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Very cool. And it, I was right, it's the CDC news.

• 11:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll take it. If it's even that small, I will take an accuracy moment.

• 11:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I will not take it away from you.

• 11:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. I appreciate it. That's, I mean, that's really the, the whole story.

• 11:58Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, I'm, I'm still trying to think of a way that we can donate part of the proceeds or like help some way with the untested rape kit situation. Mariska, Mariska.

• 12:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Mariska Hargitay?

• 12:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. I want to give her all my money and like.

• 12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Do it.

• 12:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia was in a manic episode and Karen, she gave a multimillionaire all her money.

• 12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And Karen totally was like, do it. So.

• 12:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So Georgia's suing Karen.

• 12:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I think that's, it, it all ends in a lawsuit between you and I.

• 12:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I didn't see that coming.

• 12:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Because of my undiagnosed manic, no, I don't have that.

• 12:37Karen Kilgariff?

  We call it the big giveaway. Georgia really just, no, no, no. I think that's a really good idea. I would love to the proceeds of something that we earn money for because this podcast goes to those untested.

• 12:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, we have live shows, like we're, you guys were in the fucking process of like. Having live shows be a part of our lives.

• 12:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and a part of your lives, Texas.

• 12:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we're gonna invite people. Texas, what?

• 13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  We got some numbers back. That was a brag, but we got some numbers back. And hey, Texas, turns out you like us.

• 13:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I was so surprised by that.

• 13:10Karen Kilgariff?

  We both started laughing so hard, but it makes sense.

• 13:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Texas.

• 13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Texas has some good murders.

• 13:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Texas knows what they're talking about in terms of murder.

• 13:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I just say that once we got all this, we got all this like information about our numbers and then we were driving home and we almost had to pull over to start crying with how happy we both were, but how well this is, how like, how, what a great.

• 13:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty nice.

• 13:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty great.

• 13:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty nice that we're, we're getting popular because we talk about death.

• 13:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that's lovely.

• 13:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I love you guys. Thanks for listening. Okay. I also want to say really quickly that in therapy, uh, in therapy, one of the things I talked about was that, um, how crazy I am and how much anxiety I am, I have because when I go to the back of my building to do laundry, I lock my front door and how crazy is that, that I think someone's gonna break in? And then I read an article, there's a fucking Echo Park rapist and one of the ways he got into her house was when she was doing fucking laundry in the back of her apartment and she left her door unlocked and went in.

• 14:07Karen Kilgariff?

  There is, it, it's, it's not anxiety when you're just being careful.

• 14:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I texted my therapist, the article.

• 14:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And said, in your face, bitch?

• 14:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, cuz she was like, you know, yeah. Now she doesn't want to see me anymore?

• 14:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And now she said, find someone else.

• 14:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So she, cuz she was like, you know, we're allowed to take certain precautions and that's okay and you can do that, but when you start, you know, blah, blah, blah, then it's, so she supported it. And I was like, I feel so justified.

• 14:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, also that's good. I mean, Jesus Christ.

• 14:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Good to know, right?

• 14:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Hey, there's, there's no shame in locking things, double, I lock, people will walk by in the crosswalk and their, part of my brain goes, they might be able to hear it if you lock the door or whatever. And it's like, I don't give a shit.

• 14:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't matter.

• 14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Much louder voice that says, sorry to offend you, but you don't get to, in case you had the idea.

• 14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 14:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe you're on some white drug I can't detect.

• 14:59Georgia Hardstark?

  When you're sitting at a stop sign and someone goes to walk by and you go click to lock your car door.

• 15:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And you're like, oh, they're gonna get mad at me? Fuck you.

• 15:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, cuz sometimes.

• 15:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You look creepy. That's a good way to let someone know they look creepy.

• 15:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I get the idea because you're giving me the eye.

• 15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So, yeah.

• 15:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't, we've said this a million times, fuck politeness.

• 15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck politeness.

• 15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there could be new listeners who don't yet know to fuck politeness.

• 15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck politeness and, um, well, you'll, you'll learn. There's a ton of stuff.

• 15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll have a lot of experiences in your life that'll make you, make you question.

• 15:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, how about if you're going between the laundry room and your house, lock your goddamn door.

• 15:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Lock your fucking door.

• 15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Lock your, if you live in a major city or not at your parents' house, lock your door.

• 15:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It feels really good because literally that, that was a worry every single time I walk out back is I come in the door and I check for the cats. Because if the cats were still out where they were, that meant no one was in there because, but if they were hiding, that would mean someone came in the house.

• 16:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 16:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That's crazy.

• 16:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No, that's a, that's a good theory. That's a theory based on observation.

• 16:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 16:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're back.

• 16:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, if you're still listening from Texas, thank you.

• 16:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, thanks.

• 16:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. What a miracle.

• 16:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Texas was there in the beginning. They were there hard for us. They do that. They do everything a little hard, like core.

• 16:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they're like, they rep and they're there.

• 16:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That made me think of, wasn't it in Texas, I believe Dallas, when the women got into our van to go to the theater?

• 16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Not on purpose.

• 16:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Was just like, yeah, no, they just thought it was like one of the Ubers or something. And the driver was just like, yeah, I guess these are the podcasters.

• 16:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that was, they were like, and then we met them as they were returned to the hotel and, and returned to the, like, to not being us. Yeah. And they were very funny. Yeah.

• 16:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Texas to me. That's Texas in my heart.

• 17:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It was beautiful night. It's so funny that, that was the beginning of, are you a Karen? Are you a Georgia?

• 17:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. That was like our, the BuzzFeed days. Crazy.

• 17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  One thousand years ago.

• 17:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That was a BuzzFeed quiz. So exciting. Like, this was when everything was just like popping off in a really unexpected, insane way. Like, we just didn't know what the hell is happening.

• 17:27Karen Kilgariff?

  We really didn't. We thought it was kind of funny. And as I've said a thousand times, I thought it was going to wrap up in three to five weeks.

• 17:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And you never covered Robert Pickton, which I think is a good thing, right?

• 17:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I do too. I was gonna, remember that show we did, the first time we did a show in Vancouver? I was gonna cover him at that Vancouver show. Remember we were in that high-rise hotel? There was like, we had like, we were on the 18th floor or something. We had these amazing views.

• 17:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Wasn't I sick and sorry I was an hour late because I was napping and just like, didn't put the time correct because I was like, because I was like, literally had a cold onstage.

• 18:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Yes. There was also one, also in Vancouver where I went downstairs and couldn't find where Vince was meeting us. So you were on one side of the hotel and I was on the other and I could not figure out where you were.

• 18:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you remember that one where it was like, everything was like this weird delay? Or just kind of like, what's going on?

• 18:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what touring is. It's just a delay to get to a place to wait.

• 18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. To do homework.

• 18:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And not look at anything about the city.

• 18:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And then have 3,000 people cheer for you. So.

• 18:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Did you see this update that Robert Pickton was murdered in prison just this past June?

• 18:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Yeah.

• 18:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 18:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, not a surprise. He's one of the worst serial killers of all time. He is one of the worst predators of women and marginalized women. And like that story and that, all of that corruption around that story is so fucking dark that when I went to do it in Vancouver, like, oh, this is your guy's hometown. It's like, ugh, nobody wants to, nobody wants to recount, basically, this kind of like, internal corruption that allows women with no voice to just be brutalized over and over and over.

• 19:18Georgia Hardstark?

  No. There's a few of these murders that I feel like we'll never do, and we've talked about it. This is one of them. The Speed Free, Toy Box Killer, the Speed Free Killer. And then Charles Ing, I feel like, we'll never do. Just because like, you read it and it's just, there's just, it's just an empty.

• 19:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Pit of fucking horribleness.

• 19:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I think too, it's like, that's how you kind of learn the shape of when you're doing a podcast. It's like, we very early on understood that we were going to do this podcast our way. You know, for example, talking for 45 minutes at the beginning about everything but true crime, et cetera, et cetera.

• 20:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 20:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But like, just because to follow the pattern of standardized true crime is like, is a very difficult, those shows that do it that are actually journalist-led and thoroughly researched and are like, are invaluable.

• 20:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Have compassion, yeah.

• 20:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. But it's like, just to retell these stories is, it's just, the darkness is tough.

• 20:25Georgia Hardstark?

  You need something more than that, for sure.

• 20:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially in a quarantine, for example.

• 20:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right. Which we were in for quite a while, if I remember correctly.

• 20:35Karen Kilgariff?

  We were in for quite a while.

• 20:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Real quick, before we get into your story, we did mention Marisa Hargitay's nonprofit. It's still going on. It's called the Joyful Heart Foundation. And since 2004, Joyful Heart has been a leading national organization with a mission to transform society's response to sexual assault, domestic violence, and child abuse, support survivors' healing, and end this violence forever.

• 20:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. You can donate or learn more about the Joyful Heart Foundation by going to joyfulheartfoundation.org. I mean, I think Marisa Hargitay is like, is a legend now for having played Olivia Benson on SVU for years and years, and then basically turning all of that work into this activism that's really been very effective. And like, it's just the coolest, she's the coolest.

• 21:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And hey, while we're here, let's, uh, let's donate 10 grand to the Joyful Heart Foundation.

• 21:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Love it. Great idea.

• 21:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 21:32Karen Kilgariff?

  How do you get these ideas?

• 21:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just, they just come into my mind. I don't even know how. Speaking of ideas coming from nowhere, let's listen to your epic story. This is like a classic Karen telling the story of John List.

• 21:53Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 21:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 22:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 22:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind, that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 22:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in "MFM" at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 22:57Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.

• 23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 23:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.

• 23:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.

• 23:13Georgia Hardstark?

  They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler, every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.

• 23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it.

• 23:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having. Sorry, everyone, when it's like sunny and gorgeous year-round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie Lay in the Sun, and the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 24:01Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder, and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 24:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Goodbye.

• 24:12Karen Kilgariff?

  This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial.

• 24:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.

• 25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So I've known about this one for a long time because it was made famous by that great American television show, America's Most Wanted. Hell, yeah. Do you remember the America's Most Wanted about John List, the man who killed his entire family and then disappeared for 19 years? Yes. Yes, you do. Yes. Well, that's my favorite murder for this week. Let me hear it. I'm going to tell you all about it. All right. So John List was a successful businessman. He was a devout lifelong Lutheran. He was a Sunday school teacher. He was a Boy Scout leader, a husband, a father of three. His family lived with his mother, so their grandmother, in a sprawling 19-room mansion

• 25:46Karen Kilgariff?

  called Breeze Knoll. Jesus. In Westfield, New Jersey. But behind closed doors, things were not going well. Shocking. This is me kind of trying to write like a, you know, 2020 version of this. This is, this is a narrative. This is, I'm really trying to put something into this. And it might not really work out that well because it feels a bit sweaty right now. I feel like I'm trying. Well, it's hot in here. It also is very hot. It's summer in Los Angeles. Yay. So John List's wife Helen, which they didn't, none of this you knew from America's Most Wanted. Oh, I love this.

• 26:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell me.

• 26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  His wife Helen was an alcoholic who was verbally abusive and unstable.

• 26:28Georgia Hardstark?

  She sounds fun.

• 26:29Karen Kilgariff?

  When you see the picture of the List family, her eyes are going in two different directions.

• 26:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Was she dressed well, though?

• 26:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it was. The picture, I think, was from like the mid 60s. So they look like any family.

• 26:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. I just picture her at like a party and she's just drunk and like, but she looks amazing.

• 26:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 26:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 26:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, she's got like a Jackie O outfit on, but her face is like, is just like kooky eyes and like bubbles above her head.

• 26:54Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like talking loudly about their bedroom secrets.

• 26:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah, girl. You just nailed it.

• 26:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 26:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, ready?

• 27:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 27:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So, uh, she demanded that, that John buy her that colonial mansion in Westfield, which is a very ritzy, apparently, town in New Jersey, or was in the 60s and 70s. When John landed his high status position as bank vice president and comptroller, which is one of my favorite words in the English language.

• 27:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 27:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Comptroller. I don't know what it means. I love to say it. I'm running for comptroller this, this year. Okay, so what no one knew is that John had recently been fired from being the bank president and comptroller.

• 27:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Stress.

• 27:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And, um, he, even though he was an ambitious career man, could never hold a job for more than a couple of years because of his personality problems, personality issues, quote unquote.

• 27:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 27:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh. Um, but he couldn't let his family know that he'd gotten fired. So every day he got up and he put on his suit and he grabbed his briefcase and he went to the train station like he was going to work.

• 28:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Those people terrify me.

• 28:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It's such deep denial. It's insane denial of like, da, da, da, everything's fine. And then there's crazy things boiling underneath.

• 28:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Those, those people, man.

• 28:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So he would sit at the train station and read newspapers all day until it was time to quote unquote, come home from work.

• 28:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 28:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And meanwhile, he was skimming money off of his mother's bank account so he could pay his crazy mortgage on his colonial 19-room mansion. And all the other bills are piling up. So in short, John List was Lutheran fuck-up under pressure. That's what I wrote.

• 28:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So here's his plan. He, on the morning of November 9th, 1971, after his children had left for school, John walked into the kitchen where his wife was drinking her morning coffee at the kitchen table, and he walked up and he shot her in the back of the head with a 9mm handgun.

• 29:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 29:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he went upstairs to the third floor of their mansion, where his mother had her own, like, what are the, it's sweet? Yes, her own little apartment.

• 29:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Wing, wing.

• 29:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 29:18Georgia Hardstark?

  A wing.

• 29:18Karen Kilgariff?

  A wing of the mansion. And he shot her in the head, right over her left eye, which to me sounds like he shot her face to face.

• 29:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is pretty intense.

• 29:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 29:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he drove to the bank, and he closed his account and his mother's accounts, and he cashed in his mother's savings bonds. He came home, he went to a study, he collected some old photos and documents concerning the mansion's history, and he put them in a neat pile on his desk, and he composed a letter, a thank you letter to John Witke, who was a descendant of the original owner of the house.

• 29:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's shit.

• 29:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, the important stuff.

• 29:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he also wrote four other letters. He called Barbara Bader, who was the woman who carpoolled his sons, John and Fred, to Roosevelt Junior High School, and she had done that for the last time that morning.

• 30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 30:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He made an excuse that the whole family was leaving to go to North Carolina the next morning because Helen's mother was extremely ill, and he promised that he would let her know when they were coming back. Then he canceled the newspaper, milk delivery, and he asked the post office to hold the mail until further notice. Was there going to be further notice?

• 30:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely not.

• 30:29Karen Kilgariff?

  No. So now it was lunchtime, so he made himself a lunch.

• 30:34Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 30:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Sat down at the table where he had just shot his wife, and then cleaned up the blood off the table.

• 30:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Bologna or cold meatloaf?

• 30:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I would guess baloney because he's just like, he's all business. He just wants to get proteins and calories.

• 30:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Baloney on white with mustard.

• 30:53Georgia Hardstark?

  With mustard only.

• 30:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And some, do they have potato chips back then?

• 30:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I would, don't think John List would eat potato chips. I think he would eat two sandwiches instead of having a delicious side.

• 31:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Karen, that was the best, that was what I was looking for. Because I love food details.

• 31:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's my opinion of John List food details.

• 31:10Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that was, that was beautiful.

• 31:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the kind of stuff, I can't understand that. Like, that's such a dude move.

• 31:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Where I'm like, you could have chips, the only thing you want with a sandwich.

• 31:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Or you're just gonna double down.

• 31:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Pickle slices.

• 31:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Pickles are nice.

• 31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Karen Kilgariff?

  But I always, you know me and the starches.

• 31:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right. Well, sure, everyone can start, but you just don't keep them in your house or eat them all.

• 31:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 31:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I, I mean, not you. One.

• 31:33Karen Kilgariff?

  One. So then he went around and cut himself out of every family photo in the entire house.

• 31:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Why is that the craziest part?

• 31:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That is, to me, I did it as a standalone because it's the creepiest fact to me in this whole case. It's so fucking creepy.

• 31:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That is so creepy.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Then come, now it's early afternoon, so he's waiting for his children to come home from school. Patricia, who was 16, a drama nerd.

• 32:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Aww.

• 32:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was the, it was 1971, so she had been caught smoking pot.

• 32:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, she was the coolest.

• 32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  She was cool. And she came home, he shot her in the back of the head.

• 32:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Honey.

• 32:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Then his son Frederick, the youngest, who was 13, came home, he shot him in the back of the head.

• 32:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Babe, so they didn't even know that their father?

• 32:25Karen Kilgariff?

  No, and he, and he actually in the court later revealed that, that he did it, his wife and his kids, back of the head so that they didn't know what happened.

• 32:34Georgia Hardstark?

  But mom is a different story.

• 32:36Karen Kilgariff?

  His mother was a different story, which is very telling to me.

• 32:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's get, yeah, tell me more.

• 32:40Karen Kilgariff?

  But then also John Jr. is a different story, the 15 year old who was named after him and supposedly his favorite. There was like a couple different versions of this, some said he just came straight home from school. But the one I like the best, which is the one I would tell, is that he had a soccer game that day. So John List drove to the school, watched his son's soccer game, drove him home. Tried to shoot him, but he some maybe saw the gun and freaked out. So he ended up shooting him in the face and chest over 10 times.

• 33:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 33:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So overkill, crazy fucking overkill.

• 33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And knew what was happening as, as it went.

• 33:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Once in the chest and once in the face, I get something went worse than wrong that, or he hated him more. Like something went especially wrong for 10 times.

• 33:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, because this was a man that was doing it like neatly and cleanly and pretending systematically. He was like checking off a list.

• 33:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 33:45Karen Kilgariff?

  But when it came, this guy wasn't, John Junior didn't play ball and made it hard for him. And I think that's like the rage came.

• 33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Like, how dare you?

• 33:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You're making this too hard for me.

• 33:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Not even like, you're showing me how, what horrible I am.

• 33:58Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no.

• 33:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You're, you're ruining my plan.

• 34:00Karen Kilgariff?

  You're ruining my good time.

• 34:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hideous. So then he dragged, he got sleeping bags from down, from the basement. And he put all the bodies on the sleeping bags, then dragged them into the back of the house. To what room? The ballroom. Yes. Yeah, they had a ballroom in this mansion that wasn't even decorated or furnished in any way. That's how big this house, house was. And so he pulled his wife and three children's dead bodies on sleeping bags back into the ballroom. He put a piece of cloth over each of their faces. Um, and he left them there, turned it into basically like a makeshift morgue.

• 34:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he fed the children's pet fish in the 20 gallon tank in the dining room.

• 34:49Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 34:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Went upstairs and went to sleep.

• 34:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 34:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So he's, are, are the fish okay? That's the kind of thought this man is having. Are the fish okay?

• 35:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this, I mean, as much as, because I need to put a name on things, is this sociopath?

• 35:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, oh, I'm, uh, we'll talk about the name later, but I, he probably, I mean, I don't know enough. Anytime it's like, clearly you have no feelings.

• 35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what I want to label it as.

• 35:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Me too, but yeah, it's almost.

• 35:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But he is, the real term for this guy is a family annihilator. Yeah. And it's like a thing that happens and there's a couple of different kinds.

• 35:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And they'll never kill anyone else again, kind of a thing?

• 35:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, right. It's, it's a situational.

• 35:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 35:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Thing for them.

• 35:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, tell me more.

• 35:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So the next morning, he gets up, he gets dressed, he goes downstairs, he turns the thermostat all the way down. He turns on every light in the house. And then he leaves the house and he leaves Westfield forever. Now, the weird thing is, no one noticed.

• 35:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course.

• 35:53Karen Kilgariff?

  No one in the neighborhood noticed that this family was not there. And that's because they, this family did not socialize, which is kind of common if you have a crazy drunk mom. Like they stayed in, they didn't talk to anybody. The neighbors knew John List as the guy who mowed his lawn in a suit and tie.

• 36:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus. I think the most suspicious part would be that all the lights are on.

• 36:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 36:16Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 36:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Like nobody, especially in a 19 room mansion.

• 36:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:20Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, sorry, nobody's in the greenhouse.

• 36:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody's in the brightest house on the block.

• 36:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, they're not having a party. Um, so

• 36:33Karen Kilgariff?

  because of all this careful planning and because they were basically antisocial and reclusive,

• 36:41Karen Kilgariff?

  it took a full month for anybody to actually discover these bodies.

• 36:45Georgia Hardstark?

  A month?

• 36:45Karen Kilgariff?

  A full month. Um, so the neighbors noticed that these lights were on day and night and that they were always on and that they started burning out. And that's when they started getting suspicious.

• 36:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's creepy. Can you imagine seeing like, one room is out and then the next room is out?

• 37:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and never comes back on. So clear, and no one's coming in or out of the house. So something super creepy is happening up there. But also you don't want to think about it because what could it be that would be that weird?

• 37:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  But who does? This is the most cinematic, I think, of all the stories because Patty's drama teacher is the one who's like, I don't like the smell of this.

• 37:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 37:24Karen Kilgariff?

  His name was Edwin Iliano. And he thought it was weird that the entire family was gone that long. And also, he had a terrible feeling because Patty once told him,

• 37:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I knew it.

• 37:35Karen Kilgariff?

  If this family goes on vacation, my dad has killed us.

• 37:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I knew she talked to him about something.

• 37:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  She said that?

• 37:42Karen Kilgariff?

  She said it to him. So, uh, after, you know, 28 days, oh, and he'd also met him once and thought he was super weird.

• 37:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 37:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So, after 28 days, Edwin Iliano convinces his associate Barbara Sheridan to go to the house with him to check on Patty. And they drive up there, um, they try to look into some windows, and their being there makes the neighbors call the cops, because they see people finally on the property.

• 38:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And when the cops show up, Edwin explains, uh, to them, it's, um, oh, the neighbors, William and Shirley Cunnick are their names. They're the ones that called the police. And patrol officers George Zehelsnick and Charles Heller were the first to arrive. So Iliano explains what's going on, and the officers decide they're gonna force open a window and go inside. And when they open that window, they're hit with the smell of death.

• 38:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 38:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So, I forgot, this might be my creepiest detail.

• 38:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 38:42Karen Kilgariff?

  When they go into the house, the first thing they notice is that there's organ music playing loudly over the house intercom.

• 38:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry because there's an intercom in this house?

• 38:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, and because there's organ music.

• 38:57Karen Kilgariff?

  So you're jealous of the intercom?

• 38:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because that's so cool.

• 39:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And organ music is the creepiest thing I've ever heard.

• 39:02Karen Kilgariff?

  John List set up, they kept calling it a recorder in all these articles that I read.

• 39:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:08Karen Kilgariff?

  When you do research, you realize everyone rips everybody off all the, it's hilarious.

• 39:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Insane.

• 39:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So, calling something a recorder makes no sense. It sounds like it's the instrument children play in grammar school.

• 39:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, which would be even creepier. Just a child playing the recorder really loud.

• 39:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Or it's like, oh, God, no. Okay, I was gonna go deep. Go on.

• 39:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, he had set up a thing that just played this music on a loop until you physically turned it off, and then set it to play over the intercom.

• 39:37Georgia Hardstark?

  What, it was like an old machine or something like that?

• 39:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I guess so. I mean, they call a recorder, maybe a recording device, or like a reel-to-reel perhaps?

• 39:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that sounds right.

• 39:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it was 71?

• 39:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go with that.

• 39:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, so...

• 39:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, oh, I said two things organ music is good for ice skating and mass murdering. See, it's I'm trying too hard now. Um, need to keep a cat conversational. So upstairs in the study, they find a five page letter that List had written to his pastor Eugene Renwinkle. Sorry. I don't know. It's it's like bad writing like what should we name the old pastor of the Lutheran church Eugene Renwinkle?

• 40:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 40:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So in that letter, he said he felt the 70s were a sinful time and that his family was beginning to succumb to temptation, especially his daughter because of her interest in acting, which is an occupation that List viewed as being particularly corrupt and linked to Satan, which is true.

• 40:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking slayed them all.

• 40:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So the holy religious thing to do is kill everybody. John.

• 40:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So it was like, he thought it was like a mercy killing.

• 40:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's exactly right. Uh, he saw too much evil in the world. He'd killed his family to save their souls.

• 40:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's very nice of you, you fucking dick.

• 40:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And also how giving. Now, he said he didn't kill himself because.

• 40:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, well, let's hear it.

• 41:00Karen Kilgariff?

  He didn't kill himself because suicide is a mortal sin and that would definitely bar him from heaven as opposed to murdering five people where you're still in a gray area that can be negotiated. What are you talking about?

• 41:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Narcissism, extreme narcissism, sociopathy.

• 41:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I definitely narcissism. I don't think the sociopath thing might not apply only because um, this is the one off.

• 41:28Georgia Hardstark?

  People get mad. People get.

• 41:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a five off. Sorry.

• 41:31Georgia Hardstark?

  It's five off. Okay. We're not saying all narcissists are murderers.

• 41:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 41:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That but however, this is an extreme case of narcissism.

• 41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's a it's a element in this personality disorder.

• 41:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm a narcissist. I've never killed anybody. Except for in comedy. Boo. Okay.

• 41:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 41:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Later, a reporter who covered the trial described hearing this letter when it was read aloud in court, and he said, quote, "I'll never forget the audible sigh of shock from the jury and spectators when the last line of List's letter was read. P.S. Mother is in the hallway in the attic, third floor. She was too heavy to move."

• 42:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 42:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Dang. That's your mom.

• 42:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's like a moving, like a moving box that you just like couldn't.

• 42:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Someone take care of that upstairs. Like, it's your mother? Do you think you might have had a slight problem with her?

• 42:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So, a nationwide manhunt is launched, but he's got a month, uh, lead time. He's, he's way ahead. Police investigated hundreds of leads without success. All reliable photographs of List had been destroyed.

• 42:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 42:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So it wasn't, I was creeped out.

• 42:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Turns out it was kind of like creepy smart.

• 42:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, I didn't get, I didn't catch on to that.

• 42:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, I did not either. Um, the family car was found at Kennedy Airport, but there was no evidence he had boarded a flight. He was gone and would remain gone for 18 years.

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Then on May 21st, 1989, forward, forward into the 80s.

• 43:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 43:10Karen Kilgariff?

  The murders were recounted on America's Most Wanted, which at the time had been on the air less than a year.

• 43:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 43:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And it featured an age progressed, age progressed, sorry. Age progressed clay bust sculpted by the forensic artist Frank Bender. And it turned out to bear an almost exact resemblance to List's appearance.

• 43:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe I'm making this up, but I fucking remember seeing this.

• 43:34Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you remember because I'm about to hold up a picture to you.

• 43:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I'm so excited.

• 43:41Karen Kilgariff?

  All right.

• 43:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I was nine. So I was like, old enough to remember this.

• 43:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And this was, I remember it. I was 19. Oh, grandma, baby.

• 43:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Give me hug.

• 43:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Bender consulted a forensic psychologist and created a psychological profile of List. He looked at photographs of List's parents and predicted what he would look like as he aged.

• 44:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 44:00Karen Kilgariff?

  He gave him a receding hairline and sagging jaws. Bender was particularly lauded for one final touch he added to his completed artwork. It was a pair of glasses. Bender believed List would not be vain enough to wear contact lenses. However, he said List would have worn a pair of glasses different from those he wore before the murders. He said they would be a pair with thick, dark frames. He and the psychologist theorized that List would do this to hide, in a sense. He would want to disguise the fact that he was a failure and appear more important than he really was.

• 44:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 44:32Karen Kilgariff?

  So he put these big, old glasses. Remember that?

• 44:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude, I remember that.

• 44:37Karen Kilgariff?

  This is real John List, and this is that sculpture.

• 44:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy fuck.

• 44:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fucking, like, exact.

• 44:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. You guys look this up right now.

• 44:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, Stephen. Isn't that crazy? We'll put it, we'll put it on, uh, social media.

• 44:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I'll put this on our Insta.

• 44:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But this, Frank Bender nailed it. So literally less than two weeks later, they got a ton of calls, but less than two weeks later, they find him in Virginia.

• 45:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 45:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And the hilarious part is, in the court, uh, John List reveals he was watching the show that night with his new wife. And he was quoted as saying, "I was perspiring like anything," but his wife didn't recognize him.

• 45:19Georgia Hardstark?

  But, um, no way. She had a fucking, she had a veil of, I can't, over her fucking eyes.

• 45:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And I bet a little vin rosé.

• 45:28Georgia Hardstark?

  A little rosé, a little bottle of rosé.

• 45:31Karen Kilgariff?

  She had all kinds of different veils. Uh, yeah.

• 45:35Georgia Hardstark?

  A veil, yeah.

• 45:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so they go to trial.

• 45:42Karen Kilgariff?

  He explained that he had lost his job. He explained he was dealing with his wife's alcoholism and, trial reveal, her untreated tertiary syphilis that she had contracted from her first husband, an army lieutenant who was killed in combat in Korea and concealed for 18 years. So, his crazy wife that used to verbally abuse him and publicly, uh, oh, I, maybe I skipped that part, but there's, oh no, it's in this part. Um, he says in court that she used to publicly insult him about, uh, wait.

• 46:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Did I guess that completely right?

• 46:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, you go, you absolutely guessed it.

• 46:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I really didn't know that.

• 46:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, syphilis makes you go fucking bananas.

• 46:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, he, List said, "By, by then, the disease and her excessive alcohol consumption had, according to testimony, transfer, transformed her from an attractive young woman to an unkempt, paranoid recluse who frequently and often publicly disparaged List, comparing his sexual skills unfavorably to those of her first husband." The one who gave her syphilis.

• 46:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Syphilis, Jesus, that scared the shit out of me.

• 46:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So, here's me playing the prosecuting attorney. "Mr. List, can you explain how your wife often disparages your sexual skills in public if she's a recluse?"

• 47:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 47:06Karen Kilgariff?

  "No more questions, Your Honor." And I turn around, slam my blazer down onto the chair.

• 47:12Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, so, basically, John List makes all these excuses in court. He's like, "I have PTSD from being in the army."

• 47:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I, uh, what's, what else does he say? I, oh, wait, a...

• 47:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Smoker.

• 47:31Karen Kilgariff?

  He, oh, it was my wife, my kids were going crazy, I was abused as a child, my father always told me that you had to provide for your family and that you had to do this and you had to do that, and I, and I wasn't doing anything, any of those things, because I lost my job, blah, blah, blah. So... A court appointed psychiatrist testified List suffered from obsessive compulsive personality disorder. Yeah. And he only saw two solutions to his situation, accept welfare or kill his family and send them to heaven. And welfare was unacceptable because it would expose him and his family to ridicule and violate his authoritarian father's teachings, blah, blah, blah.

• 48:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is a common thing with family annihilators. They say that there are two types, and one is a livid coercive killer. And those are the ones that are usually abusive and they kill the family when the family tries to run away from them. So it's years of abuse, years of abuse, the family tries to escape, and then it's like... We see those all the time. I'll teach you all, yes. But the other kind is the civil reputable killer. And they're motivated by a perverse form of altruism. So it's his way of rescuing the family from shame and hardship. Yeah. And in his obsessive compulsive narcissism, John List didn't choose to fix his own

• 48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  problems, but instead he fixated on the family problems and the problems of society. Eighty-one percent of family annihilators kill themselves after killing their family. So that's when, in my opinion, John List's argument of this, "I was doing the best for the family," breaks down. Because he went on to live a happy life for nineteen years. Yeah. In Colorado. And what, sorry, the part that I was skipping over is, he basically told everybody what happened was the day after the murders, he took the train from New Jersey to Michigan, and then from Michigan to Colorado. He settled in Denver. He took an accounting job as Robert Peter Bob Clark.

• 49:39Karen Kilgariff?

  That's subtle. Yeah. Kind of plain, but then also exciting. Yeah. Exciting in a way. Pick one of those names. He was the controller at a paper box manufacturer.

• 49:51Georgia Hardstark?

  The comptroller?

• 49:52Karen Kilgariff?

  He was, they said comptroller, I wanna say comptroller.

• 49:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what? It's our fucking story to tell.

• 49:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. And then what he do? He joined Lutheran congregation, ran a carpool for shut-in church members and met an army PX clerk named Dolores Miller and married her in 1985.

• 50:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It's almost like he's trying to prove to himself that he's actually a good person.

• 50:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It was just circumstantial.

• 50:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It was them.

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 50:16Karen Kilgariff?

  His wife, his alcoholic, syphilitic wife, his hippie daughter, his rebellious children, they ruined it for him.

• 50:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like in the 50s, that might have worked better than in the 70s and 80s. That excuse, or like especially the 80s, but like that came to an end, it seems like.

• 50:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, because it, well, that was also like the oldest version of like, there's only a father that's the breadwinner. It's never the mother and no one gets divorced. And this is the, the American dream. You have to have a house and two kids. All that bullshit everyone got sold.

• 50:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That everyone kind of had to swallow whole, basically. Also, John List was abused as a child, which is a very common thing in family annihilators because they get, they feel powerless. They felt powerless as children, so when they have families, they're exerting power over the family to give them that power they never had.

• 51:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Now they're in charge.

• 51:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly. And then when that doesn't work, they don't know how to deal with it.

• 51:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh man, when, when the 70s come and the daughter's like, I'm gonna go crazy.

• 51:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, when there's a fucking cultural revolution throughout the country and your daughter's like, I think I might wanna act.

• 51:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead of being a devout Lutheran.

• 51:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so they, they're trying to create the, the life they never had that they fantasize of as abused children.

• 51:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 51:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And then when that goes to shit, they're just like, well, we're starting over.

• 51:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Essentially.

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I guess the, the bet, this has a great twist ending.

• 51:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's all good.

• 51:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so that he was, he was, um, convicted of five, uh, counts of murder of, uh, and the judge said, John, John M. List is without remorse and without honor. After 18 years, five months and 22 days, it's now time for, for the voices of Helen, Alma, Patrick, Patricia, Frederick, and John F. List to rise from the grave.

• 52:21Georgia Hardstark?

  That's beautiful.

• 52:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And he imposed a sentence of five terms of life imprisonment to be served consecutively. It was the maximum penalty. And List died of pneumonia in prison on March 21st, 2008.

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 52:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And his body was not claimed because who's gonna fucking claim it?

• 52:39Georgia Hardstark?

  He lived for a long time.

• 52:41Karen Kilgariff?

  He really did. The second wife didn't return the call. And the morgue was like, oh, we have your, hello.

• 52:47Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like, that ain't my.

• 52:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello. But eventually someone took him back and he was buried next to his mother in Michigan.

• 52:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, she's like, fuck this guy.

• 52:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Get out of here.

• 52:57Georgia Hardstark?

  He shot me in the fucking face and then wouldn't even carry me to the ballroom.

• 53:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But are you ready for this twist ending that I love?

• 53:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's not it. Yeah.

• 53:03Karen Kilgariff?

  This is it. So somebody burnt down Breeze Knoll, the great, the great mansion. Some, that, no one's ever even looked into who might've done it.

• 53:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Was it a ghost?

• 53:14Karen Kilgariff?

  They just did it. Um, could've been, could've been a ghost fire. Um, there's a New Jersey ghost fire. Um, but destroyed along with the home was the ballroom stained glass skylight, which was a signed Tiffany original.

• 53:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 53:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Worth at least a hundred thousand dollars at the time.

• 53:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 53:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Which would have covered his expenses. It was right there the whole time in that room you didn't go in 'cause you couldn't deal with it.

• 53:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, oh my, oh god, that's gonna be someone's new ringtone, by the way.

• 53:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That's John, that's John List, everybody. Oh, also, because he disappeared in seventy-one, and DB, um,

• 54:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Cooper.

• 54:02Karen Kilgariff?

  DB Cooper, they thought he was DB Cooper for a while.

• 54:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause he kinda looks like that sketch.

• 54:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, Mr. Vig. Uh, and he, DB Cooper stole two hundred thousand dollars, which was kind of around, they figured around how much John List owed.

• 54:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Are they sure it wasn't him?

• 54:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, John List vehemently denied it from jail. That's how fucking boring this guy is. No, I'm not, no, I insist I'm not DB Cooper. Well, it could have been cool if you were.

• 54:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but maybe he doesn't, I bet it was him.

• 54:32Karen Kilgariff?

  No, he wa, I don't think this guy would have jumped out of a plane. He was too scared to tell his wife he got fired.

• 54:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 54:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You know?

• 54:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, maybe he thought, I don't know, just, do Lutherans like Jesus? Maybe he thought Jesus would

• 54:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Help out?

• 54:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus did help out. He gave him a, a beautiful skylight, a Tiffany skylight. The Lord said it was right there all along.

• 54:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You know that whoever burnt that house down was fucking bummed they didn't know that too.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. There was some real estate agent that ran up at the, at the last, what are you doing?

• 55:00Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no.

• 55:01Karen Kilgariff?

  At least get the thing.

• 55:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You ghosts and your arson.

• 55:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back.

• 55:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember when Conan O'Brien guested on our show and told us this story like we had never heard it before?

• 55:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but also, I mean, what, why would he, you know, have ever listened to this podcast? But also that he was in the courtroom when it, when John List,

• 55:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my god, he's just, He's a super gigantic murderino, but he also was like, the assumption was, we didn't know what he was talking about. It's just like,

• 55:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It wasn't a little like, you maybe never heard of this one. And it's like, try me.

• 55:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Either that or just I'm fucking telling this story. And it's like, oh, I have some details too. Okay.

• 55:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope.

• 55:44Karen Kilgariff?

  You're right. You're right. One of which, god damn, I think about it literally once a week.

• 55:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that John List did all of that because he was broke. And meanwhile, in that mansion that he felt pressured to buy.

• 55:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:59Karen Kilgariff?

  There was a Tiffany fixture.

• 56:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Ceiling. It was the glass ceiling.

• 56:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a skylight.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Or was it a light fixture? I can't remember, but either way, it was worth over a hundred thousand dollars enough to get him out of debt.

• 56:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Let me throw this in there.

• 56:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 56:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you think, AKA, I bet he still would have found something later to kill them all for? He would have sold that skylight or light thing, used the hundred grand. He still would have fucking killed them on something else.

• 56:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like a family annihilator.

• 56:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:32Karen Kilgariff?

  The problem isn't actually debt. It's not, you're right. Yes.

• 56:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not getting out of debt and everything's fine and everyone's happy. It's, he wanted to and he found a way to do it.

• 56:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, there wasn't a magic.

• 56:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Karen Kilgariff?

  A magic key that was gonna solve it. And also just that, the whole topic of family annihilators, it's so intense, it's so way out there. It's just, and it's crazy because now those stories are coming up more and more.

• 56:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And he, specifically this story is just so cold and calculated. The whole, cutting the face out of, his face out of the pictures and.

• 57:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Just, I mean, it's just so sick. Are there any updates? I know he's dead, but anything more?

• 57:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Here, this is what's important. I've learned what a comptroller is. Webster's dictionary defines a comptroller as a management level professional who oversees financial reporting and accounting. Also, while he was on the run, John took a job as a comptroller. Which we also didn't understand or care about in the original story. Turns out, controllers work for private companies, doing the exact same thing. Comptrollers work for governments and nonprofits doing that job. So it turns out, a man whose financial irresponsibility led him to murder his entire family, actually worked in accounting. That was supposed to be his specialty.

• 57:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. You can't do anything right.

• 57:53Karen Kilgariff?

  The irony, the irony is everywhere with this John List story. Also, the John List story is the America's Most Wanted element.

• 58:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 58:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That makes it such a legendary true crime story.

• 58:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And that his fucking new wife was sitting next to him and didn't recognize him. Or just, you know, maybe something in her head did, but.

• 58:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like a movie.

• 58:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine? Jesus.

• 58:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine? This is why Conan loved the story so much. Okay, it's time for Georgia's story that she does on this episode about the death of Warena Wright.

• 58:30Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 58:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 58:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 58:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know, and if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 59:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 59:25Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm, and when you order, write in MFM at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.

• 59:33Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 59:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 59:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Holiday shopping gets a lot easier when you can find something for everyone.

• 59:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially when everyone includes yourself.

• 59:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Find thoughtful, high-quality gifts for everyone on your list at Quince.

• 59:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Quince makes beautiful, everyday essentials with high-quality materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. They're the kind of things you love to give as a gift or get yourself.

• 59:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50, and they also have beautiful 14-karat gold earrings and bracelets that make great gifts.

• 1:00:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I was so excited when I got home and I got to break out my gray Quince cashmere sweater that I wear constantly around the house. We've been waiting for even the slightest temperature drop so that we could get into sweater weather, and finally it's here, and I'm I celebrated with my beautiful Quince cashmere sweater that I think I got the second year we started doing ads for them.

• 1:00:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They laugh.

• 1:00:30Karen Kilgariff?

  They do.

• 1:00:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season.

• 1:00:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 1:00:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

• 1:00:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 1:00:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was my favorite murder. It's the best way to support the show.

• 1:00:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:00:52Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are filled with moments that remind us who matters most. The friend who always picks up the phone.

• 1:00:57Karen Kilgariff?

  The family member who's stood by your side, the people who know your story and help shape it every day.

• 1:01:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why this season Pandora's Holiday Collection is all about celebrating the ones you know by heart with a gift that says it all.

• 1:01:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Because the best gifts don't just look beautiful, they mean something, too. Discover meaningful jewelry designed to honor every connection.

• 1:01:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Choose engraveable pieces that turn memories into keepsakes.

• 1:01:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Celebrate special moments with festive charms that capture the spirit of the season or surprise someone extraordinary with the brilliance of Pandora's lab grown diamonds.

• 1:01:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Each piece is thoughtfully crafted to help you express what can be difficult to put into words.

• 1:01:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're shopping for a partner, a parent, a best friend, or someone who's been there through it all, you'll find a gift that reflects everything they mean to you.

• 1:01:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Give a piece that says exactly what words can't.

• 1:01:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Pandora, more than a gift.

• 1:01:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Shop new styles in store or online at pandora.net.

• 1:01:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:01:50Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 1:01:50Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, what's yours?

• 1:01:51Georgia Hardstark?

  So I have one that I learned about recently because it happened recently and we're gonna, Karen, we're gonna do a little play.

• 1:01:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:01:59Georgia Hardstark?

  This whole, this theme, what is this theme? Drama, Drama Teachers. All right.

• 1:02:06Karen Kilgariff?

  You mean for this episode?

• 1:02:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, the Drama Teachers episode.

• 1:02:09Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, so Warina Wright, W A R R I E N A, Warina Wright, was 26, from New Zealand, and she went to Queensland, Australia on July 29th, 2014, to celebrate a friend's wedding. Checks into a motel on August 6th and then on the following day is like, let's see who's on Tinder. Do you know this one?

• 1:02:35Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:02:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So she fucking, Tinder's beautiful girl. She looks like a little bit, a little gothy, but not, you know, she's hot. So she finds Gable Toasties.

• 1:02:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Tinder, they, he's this like hot ladies man. They meet up outside of a bar on the 6th.

• 1:03:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I just want to say, by the next morning, Warina will be dead after falling from his, Gable's 14th floor balcony. That's how this goes.

• 1:03:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not good.

• 1:03:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Back to that night, by 9:00 PM, they're in his apartment on the 14th floor.

• 1:03:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:03:17Georgia Hardstark?

  This beautiful building.

• 1:03:20Georgia Hardstark?

  So somehow, Gable, which is a great name, isn't it? It's his first name.

• 1:03:26Karen Kilgariff?

  A first name? I don't know.

• 1:03:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of like it. For some reason, he starts recording what's going on inside with a voice recorder. Police somehow extracted it from like mobile phones that were found. I think it was tried, they tried to delete, he tried to delete it, it didn't happen, they were able to get it. So, so there's, um, there's a whole, uh, there's a whole conversation that's recorded.

• 1:03:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're gonna act it out?

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So I'm gonna read, but I, yeah, okay, I'm gonna read. I highlighted your parts.

• 1:04:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, oh, thank you.

• 1:04:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You're, you're Warina, I'm Gable. But let me read it to you also.

• 1:04:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:04:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So at 1:00 AM, the sound recorder started. And it's later ceased, but the recording starts, music's heard, and 20 seconds into the recording, the man states, "Fuck me."

• 1:04:21Georgia Hardstark?

  At 1:02 AM, the man asks the female to chill and have a drink. And she says she is...

• 1:04:27Karen Kilgariff?

  "I'm a psycho drunk and do not test me."

• 1:04:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Then at 1:05, between 1:05 and 1:08, the pair talk about death. The male says, "Throw me off the balcony and that's it. This is it." Boom.

• 1:04:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Then at 1:16 AM, there's laughing sounds are heard and sounds of hitting are heard as well, but the music continues to play in the background. And that was scary.

• 1:04:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a funk, yeah.

• 1:04:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And there are soft sounds of groaning.

• 1:04:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:04:57Georgia Hardstark?

  At 1:29 AM, the male says, "I don't like getting beaten up."

• 1:05:03Georgia Hardstark?

  At 1:36 AM, the argument begins when the female says she's leaving and can't find her iPhone. She says...

• 1:05:10Karen Kilgariff?

  "Are you going to fucking untie me because I will fucking destroy your jaw?"

• 1:05:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god. And then Vince unlocked the door and scared the ever-loving sh-

• 1:05:21Speaker 04

  It's the cannibal episode. Same thing happened when you were talking about cannibals.

• 1:05:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, baby.

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man, Elvis.

• 1:05:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Vince, April.

• 1:05:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, you're gonna untie me, blah, blah, blah. So at 1:38, the man says, "I should have never given you so much to drink. I thought we were gonna have fun." And then he asks her to calm down. At 1:41 a.m., the man asks the female to stay, but says, "You're just a bit violent." He offers to cook some food, and the conversation calms down. Oh, no. At 1:53 a.m., drinks are- more drinks are poured. Stop drinking, you guys. Yeah, what- you already decided the drinking's bad. Yeah. At 2 a.m., the occupant of the apartment below is woken up by the noise. At 2:10 a.m., the audio recording- in the audio recording, the male tells the female to relax and threatens to kick her arse. Ass. At 2:11 a.m., there's sounds of struggle.

• 1:06:24Georgia Hardstark?

  A minute later, the sounds of rocks possibly being thrown in the apartment is heard. At 2:14, the man says, "That's enough. You've worn out your welcome. You have to leave." The female, out of breath, says, "Okay." At 2:15 a.m., the man says, "I thought you were kidding, and I have taken enough. This is fucking bullshit. You're lucky I haven't chucked you off my balcony, you goddamn psycho little bitch." At 2:16 a.m., the female, who is breathing heavily, accuses him of being- A sexist. And then says- Lay off. To which the male replies, "Seriously, what?" At 2:17 a.m., the man says, "You're a goddamn psycho. I'm gonna let you go. I'm gonna walk you out of this apartment just the way you are. You are not going to collect any of your belongings. You are just going to walk out, and I'm gonna slam the door on you. Do you understand?

• 1:07:09Georgia Hardstark?

  If you try and pull anything, I'll knock you out. Do you understand?" The female says- "I'm so sorry." "I don't care." Okay, so the fall. At 2:17 a.m., sounds of struggling and heavy breathing are heard. The man says, "Let go of it. Let go, let go, let go." At 2:18, the first choking sounds are heard. Breathing slows. Male, "Let it go." Sounds of a metallic object dropping is heard. At 2:20 a.m., a door unlocks and the female states,

• 1:07:39Karen Kilgariff?

  "No."

• 1:07:39Georgia Hardstark?

  The sound of a glass door possibly being hit. 2:20, the man says, "Who the fuck do you think you are, hey?" The female says,

• 1:07:48Karen Kilgariff?

  "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no."

• 1:07:50Georgia Hardstark?

  The male says, "You tried to kill me, huh? Well, why did you try and hit me with that? Shut your filthy mouth." The female,

• 1:07:57Karen Kilgariff?

  "I'm not gonna scream."

• 1:07:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Screams now.

• 1:07:59Karen Kilgariff?

  But she's screaming, "No, no, no, no, no, no."

• 1:08:01Georgia Hardstark?

  The man says, "It's all on recording. You know it's all being recorded." The female, a lot more, "No, just let me go home." The male says, "I would, but you've been a bad girl." And then the sounds are heard of a door slamming shut. Police at this point allege that he left her out on the balcony, misread on the balcony. The female says,

• 1:08:21Karen Kilgariff?

  "Just let me go home. Just let me go home."

• 1:08:23Georgia Hardstark?

  At 2:21 a.m., a female's final words are heard.

• 1:08:26Karen Kilgariff?

  "Just let me go home."

• 1:08:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Faint screaming is heard. You're looking at me like I'm gonna...

• 1:08:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrible.

• 1:08:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so put that down.

• 1:08:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:08:34Georgia Hardstark?

  So, the occupant in the apartment below his... Here's a female repeatedly shouting, "No", and then sees two legs dangling down.

• 1:08:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Ugh.

• 1:08:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So, what's going on right now is either she's crazy and drunk and jumping, or she's terrified of this person and trying to get to the balcony below.

• 1:08:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So, the witness says, "In a matter of seconds, I saw the person fall from the balcony above mine."

• 1:09:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Ugh.

• 1:09:06Georgia Hardstark?

  At 2:21, a call is placed from Gable's phone to his lawyer. The call doesn't connect at 2:23, a triple O, which I'm guessing is 911. Call is placed by the woman in the apartment below. Police arrive at the scene.

• 1:09:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And at the same time, the fob key to his apartment is activated. Closed caption cameras capture a male believed to be Gable approaching the front entrance of the apartment and he walks back to the elevator and rides it to the basement. At 2:29, sounds of walking are heard in the audio recording, which is still going from earlier in the night. So he has the phone or whatever he's using to record. With him or in the apartment? With him. With him. He's like in the, in the. So sorry, he's recording this entire evening? Recording the whole thing. And people said he might have done it because he was like a creepy pervert and like to record these things. Or he took home a lot of women and this is a way to like assure that nothing. Oh. You know, just to have it.

• 1:10:06Georgia Hardstark?

  If they go crazy or if, yeah, either way, it's sketchy. Yeah. At 3:10 a.m. He orders a pizza. What? Yeah. He says, um, a pizza, of pizza supreme, please. He orders a fucking slice of pizza. At 3:23 a.m., a call is placed to his father. He says, hello, dad, I might have gotten a bit of a situation. I met, I met a girl for a date. She started getting aggressive.

• 1:10:36Georgia Hardstark?

  We kept drinking and I think she thought it was like a joke and she kept like beating me up. Cause she was really drunk and I forced her out on the balcony and I think she might have jumped off. And the dad says, oh, no.

• 1:10:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you okay? Yeah. So there's a million cops walking, walking around. I'm fucked up. I don't know what to do. The, um.

• 1:11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  He says, I don't know, I like, I tackled her on my floor inside the building and I never forced her over the edge.

• 1:11:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 1:11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  So the dad picks him up and eventually he's arrested.

• 1:11:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And so, yeah, so he's claiming he's innocent. She jumped, he has nothing to do with it. He didn't push her over the edge. It's not murder. He's, um, he's set for trial on August, on October 13th, 2016. But he's free right now. He's out on bond and he, he can't stop talking. He's posting shit on like bodybuilders.com.

• 1:11:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 1:11:42Georgia Hardstark?

  He's just, he's, doesn't understand why people are blind. He, he has to be somewhat narcissistic.

• 1:11:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Oh, you mean like he needs to say his, what his side of it is?

• 1:11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but he's also saying things about how many women he's been with and he's never hurt them. So he's like bragging about that, how nice his apartment was, um, how well he does, saying it's a witch hunt. Um, but they, but prosecutors think he could be convicted for murder because she was reportedly in fear of her life and was trying to flee him to the apartment below.

• 1:12:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Those neighbors?

• 1:12:17Georgia Hardstark?

  The prosecutors say that.

• 1:12:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm really interested, I really like, not like, but I'm really interested in murder by suicide.

• 1:12:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's really interesting. Like there's that one case of, there was the, the road rage incident on a bridge in Detroit and this man was coming at the woman who had rear ended him and she jumped off the bridge to get away from him.

• 1:12:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's, that was actually a very fam, like one of the earliest law and orders.

• 1:12:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Really?

• 1:12:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:12:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:12:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, and he was convicted of murder.

• 1:12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Or maybe manslaughter.

• 1:12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause she just didn't know where else to go.

• 1:12:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Georgia Hardstark?

  It was just like trying to get away.

• 1:12:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But also, the idea of recording an entire evening just to be sure, in and of itself is suspicious to me. What do you need to be sure of that you have been in a position where this has been a problem for you?

• 1:13:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Or maybe she just already was being a little crazy.

• 1:13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so he started the recording?

• 1:13:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Not to, I'm not victim blaming. They were clearly very drunk. Maybe he liked to record his, his

• 1:13:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Sex.

• 1:13:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Sex.

• 1:13:25Karen Kilgariff?

  But, but yeah, you're right. I mean, like she, the things that she's doing don't make a lot of sense. It's not, it's not like, it's, uh, doesn't seem like she's the only victim at the beginning.

• 1:13:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's not, from what he's saying, but here's the thing, he's the only one who knows it's being recorded. So what he's saying about her attacking him is very specific. And someone on like a Reddit said, or maybe on the Facebook page said, uh, when my boyfriend was beating me up, he'd say, he'd yell, "Stop it. What are you doing to me? Why are you doing this?" To like, get the neighbors to think that she was doing something to him or just to fuck with her and her mind. So

• 1:14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It could be that.

• 1:14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  It could just be, and what it sounds like happened from when I read the transcript, which I fucking stayed up all night reading it. It was like, it's so crazy, is, um, you know, they were having rough sex. Maybe she wasn't completely coherent. She comes to and is freaked out by it and is trying to get out, but doesn't know how. And he's telling her to calm down because he tells her to calm down a couple of times.

• 1:14:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:14:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I think at one point she realized what was happening and picked something up to throw at him. And he gets so angry at that because you can hear him say like, "You've been a bad girl." She's trying to defend herself. He, he's like, "I'm gonna have to lock you out on the balcony to like, to, um, protect myself." But she, the whole time she's been the victim and she's freaking the fuck out.

• 1:14:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's drunk and fucked up. And so she thinks the best option is to go over the side of the edge and get to the balcony below, which

• 1:15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's like something From a movie. It's like, it only works when stunt men do it.

• 1:15:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, anyone in their right mind would never try that. And so she clearly wasn't in her right mind.

• 1:15:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And is there proof that we know that she, if she drank, like, I know people who are almost like allergic to alcohol. Where they have one drink and they're just like legless and out of their minds.

• 1:15:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I don't know.

• 1:15:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not like that.

• 1:15:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know what her blood alcohol level was. I don't know if they tested her for drugs. Maybe they're keeping all of that for the trial.

• 1:15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It sounds like that's the story he's trying to push though with this recording. Is like, you've gone crazy.

• 1:15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  But he's feeding her alcohol too. So even if it's like, well, look how drunk she was. I mean, his own recording is is gonna, is gonna be the thing that convicts him, I feel like.

• 1:15:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's super weird to, I can't imagine if something terrible happened at my house. Like horrifying, like a person committed suicide, I wouldn't be ordering pizza an hour later.

• 1:16:06Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I mean, I wonder if he was so fucked up and didn't know what's going on, it would be almost be like he would go lay down or something. Or go hide or, you know, like, I don't think.

• 1:16:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, if you, I mean, this also, it just immediately makes me think of The Night Of. Because The Night Of presents you the story where you completely.

• 1:16:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I haven't watched it. I have only watched the first episode.

• 1:16:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, but I mean, in just in general, you empathize with the person that they put in front of you. Because that's the story you're getting. Which is what happens a lot of the time, is, is whoever gets a hold of that narrative. Then you go, oh, yeah, yeah, no, he would never do that. He's so nice. Or whatever story.

• 1:16:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and what people present you.

• 1:16:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And then the shit that they talk about the other person. So in a way, not to defend him, I know, I have no idea what's going on in this one. This is crazy. But it makes sense then, that if he's kind of out on his own, he's trying to control the narrative by. Tweeting things and posting shit on bodybuilders.com or whatever you said. I mean, like then he's, that's a person that's just scrambling and making mistakes.

• 1:17:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I feel like the harder you try to defend yourself on social media, the worse you seem and the more people can pick it apart.

• 1:17:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, for sure.

• 1:17:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Because, I mean, you know, web sleuths have got, have gotten a hold of this, the website, web sleuths have gotten a hold of this and are like picking it apart. And they think there's been some comments by, by fake accounts he's made that just know too much about the

• 1:17:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Details?

• 1:17:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Details.

• 1:17:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh shit.

• 1:17:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's like, he, he's his own worst fucking enemy.

• 1:17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also he's, he's paying a lot of attention to this, the process of this.

• 1:17:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is very strange.

• 1:17:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's gonna be a hard one. I feel like it's gonna be a hard one.

• 1:17:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So sorry, did this just happen days ago?

• 1:17:58Georgia Hardstark?

  2014.

• 1:17:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh, okay.

• 1:18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  But he's being, I, I, you know, it's Australia, so I don't know. I feel like he's being indicted or there's gonna be a trial to indict him on this, on, in October.

• 1:18:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:18:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. From what I can tell from Australian legal ease. Isn't that fucked up?

• 1:18:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:19Georgia Hardstark?

  This poor, the poor girl, but this whole situation, guys, don't meet strangers on Tinder. Not, oh man, I'm gonna get in trouble for slut shaming.

• 1:18:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not slut shaming.

• 1:18:29Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's so crazy that people just like.

• 1:18:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That's just dating though. Yeah, but I mean, like, how about the girl, that girl in Santa Monica that knew the guy for a year and roofied her drink? I mean, bad things happen to people. It just happens.

• 1:18:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 1:18:44Karen Kilgariff?

  But this seems weird because you're, the idea that a person is recording an entire evening and their foreknowledge of that recording and not telling the other person.

• 1:18:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, there's a manipulation on the surface of that that's suspicious.

• 1:19:02Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure.

• 1:19:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And to me, it's suspicious to say, I record this because, just in case, something happens and I need to defend myself. Or it's like, but that's not an accurate defense because we can't see what's actually happening. It's just your playlet.

• 1:19:16Georgia Hardstark?

  It's also weird at the very end when he was like, I'm, I've been recording that. Like, he uses it to throw it in her face somehow, almost like.

• 1:19:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't prove anything?

• 1:19:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you can't prove anything, or. Like, why would he use that against her if he, you know, if nothing had happened that he could call the cops for or press charges for?

• 1:19:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also, he never called the cops, right?

• 1:19:39Georgia Hardstark?

  No, and he didn't let her go either. Like, at one point, she was like, I'm getting my shit and I'm leaving. Where's my phone? And he, like, stopped her from leaving.

• 1:19:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So she was freaked out and wanted to leave too. Both of them, you know.

• 1:19:52Karen Kilgariff?

  If you had a person, this, just, we'll throw this out there. If you had a person in your house, you met on a Tinder date, so you don't know them, you guys were drinking, they get a little crazy. You're, you're the guy, so they, it's a girl that tries to beat you up. So it's like painful, irritating, not, not life threatening. You, when they want to go, what would be the, why, why would you keep them there?

• 1:20:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, this is a crazy, if you're keeping a crazy person in your apartment,

• 1:20:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:21Karen Kilgariff?

  quote unquote, so crazy.

• 1:20:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:24Karen Kilgariff?

  That you know you're making more problems.

• 1:20:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, when, if they, you just go, yeah, get out.

• 1:20:28Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you trying to get out of the situation if you want to keep the person who's?

• 1:20:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Crazy and abusive toward you.

• 1:20:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, around. There, you're getting something out of it, or it's not as it seems.

• 1:20:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Well, there's that thing about.

• 1:20:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Option that, I mean. Abusive people, you know, it's the gaslighting technique where abusive people are like, why are you being so crazy? Like, this isn't that big of a deal.

• 1:20:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:20:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And the people who that works on, it works very well.

• 1:20:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also you would get violent if you were like, say, tied up against your will or woke up, whatever the scenario was, where you would try your best to like, what are the rocks that got thrown in doors?

• 1:21:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know what the rocks are. I wonder if, I mean, I wonder if she was just almost incapacit- almost incoherent, you know what I mean? Where it's like, you're not yet, you're just like, you're aware that you're in a situation that's not good, because she's not forming complete sentences most of the time.

• 1:21:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she's just saying little things.

• 1:21:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, that's right.

• 1:21:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's crazy. I know.

• 1:21:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you have to assume she was naked on the balcony, too.

• 1:21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, really?

• 1:21:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I think so. She's definitely barefoot, but I don't, I'm not sure if she's naked.

• 1:21:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:21:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Should've checked that out.

• 1:21:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't, I didn't think of that.

• 1:21:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Facts and things. Well, yeah. That's fucked up, right?

• 1:21:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I've been thinking about that one for a lot, for a long time. Are you okay?

• 1:21:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, no, no, no, just, those ones just make me keep on thinking about it.

• 1:22:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:22:03Karen Kilgariff?

  The idea of recording an evening is super insane to me.

• 1:22:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And also just like this weird day and age that we live in, where like, you could be recorded at any time.

• 1:22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Like right now.

• 1:22:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:22:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:22:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, what are these microphones doing in our faces?

• 1:22:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. Yeah, this one is so rough. Are there any case updates on this?

• 1:22:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I have a couple of case updates. After a week-long trial in October of 2016, a Supreme Court jury in Brisbane acquitted Gable Totsi of both murder and manslaughter charges in the death of Orina Wright.

• 1:22:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So we, I had done this story before it had even gone to trial. And he was acquitted. And since then, Tatsy has been going by a different name. And his name has popped up in the news a few times since, usually tied to stories about his dating life or drinking habits. And just like fuel his notoriety. And there's just some, you know, he gets into trouble. It seems like it's just, I want to know what really happened. I don't know if we ever will that night, you know? And so it's hard to be like, he got acquitted. So you want to be like, you don't want to talk shit on this person because what if he's?

• 1:23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Not if he's innocent. What if this whole thing was this terrible?

• 1:23:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Happenstance that was, I mean, all of it is just so baffling.

• 1:23:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And it's just like such a sad, tragic, unnecessary death of this young woman. And that's really what it comes down to.

• 1:23:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. That's right. So let's talk about the, the new title, because incredibly we titled this 29, German spelling of nine.

• 1:23:48Georgia Hardstark?

  But I bet I made that up. I don't remember. But I don't think that would be something you suggested.

• 1:23:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I really don't think I would have, but who's to say?

• 1:23:57Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's who's to say?

• 1:24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Literally.

• 1:24:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But also it's just kind of like, we're just trying to get this stuff done.

• 1:24:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder how much longer it is until we stop fucking naming things after numbers. It's got to be pretty close. If we're 29 is the fucking, is all we got.

• 1:24:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That we just were like, we needed different, a gimmick here.

• 1:24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Please. All right. So if we were naming the episode today, based on things we said in the episode, we could call it happy clap, which I love, because that's what Stephen does when Karen talks about Nico Case, which is the cutest. I see Stephen sitting cross legged on the floor doing his. Happy clap.

• 1:24:35Karen Kilgariff?

  His quiet, sound guy happy clap.

• 1:24:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, all the cookies, which is what Georgia says Elvis is with Vince, because Vince gives him all the cookies.

• 1:24:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's when we had to make Vince and the cats go in a different room, go in the one bedroom of my one bedroom apartment. We were recording and he like couldn't make a noise or come out or do anything.

• 1:24:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. He was like, and also we were out there for an hour and 45 minutes, most of the time.

• 1:25:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Really were. And once in a while I'd scream, Vince, what was the name of that movie?

• 1:25:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that cute little apartment.

• 1:25:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And prayers up to Vince Avril once again.

• 1:25:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 1:25:12Karen Kilgariff?

  For being there from day one.

• 1:25:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Still doing it.

• 1:25:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Still, still putting in his hours.

• 1:25:16Georgia Hardstark?

  He really is. Um, thank you guys for listening to this episode of Rewind and for sticking with us and still being here.

• 1:25:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we rewind every Wednesday, so come back and, uh, we'll be doing episode 30 next week.

• 1:25:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And until then, stay sexy.

• 1:25:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered. Goodbye.

• 1:25:35Speaker 04

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:25:41Speaker 00

  Parents and grandparents, if you want a gift that won't be forgotten by New Year's, give a Guardian bike. Guardian bikes are built just for kids. Lightweight, low to the ground, with a wide wheelbase for balance. Most kids learn to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. Their patented Sure Stop brake stops both wheels with a single lever, helping prevent head-over-handlebar falls. It's the number one kids' bike on the market, designed and assembled in the USA, and the New York Times Wirecutter's top pick four years in a row. Guardian is one of the most gifted bikes of the season, and popular sizes can sell out, so don't wait. Join over a million happy riders at guardianbikes.com. That's guardianbikes.com.

• 1:26:26Georgia Hardstark?

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:26:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:26:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027 for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:27:08Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:27:24Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:27:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:27:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.