The Colbert-CBS Drama and NFL Leap Team Possibilities With Matt Belloni and Nate Tice

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Matthew Belloni to talk about CBS cancelling ‘The Late Show With Stephen Colbert’ and what that means for the future of TV (2:50). Then, Nate Tice joins ahead of the NFL season to talk about the teams that could jump a level, before discussing the Timberwolves (51:11). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Matthew Belloni and Nate Tice Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle

• 0:41Bill Simmons?

  with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FDIC. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find a bunch of awesome shows and podcasts. You can find a great website. You can find the rewatchables. We do that every Monday night. We did Species this time around. We're getting weird. We got weird in July because we had the 400th movie coming. August is going to be action packed.

• 1:25Bill Simmons?

  I think I'm going to do one name movie month in August. But August is going to be, this is the last like one for us. I wanted to get a little wacky. You know, it's July, there's no sports, nothing's going on. Everybody's on vacation. But we're, we're about to kick into a pretty good gear here. Anyway, Species, a movie that would not be made in 2025. Me, Van Lathan, Chris Ryan. This is a very funny podcast, so you can check it out on Spotify. You can check it out wherever you get your podcasts or in the Ringer Movies YouTube channel. So I cut down the Sundays, at least for July, which is great. I needed to refuel some batteries, work on some, some Spotify Ringer stuff.

• 2:07Bill Simmons?

  And most importantly, I needed to start prepping for the football season. I have a whole process. It's weird. I'm the only one who really understands it. I have to do everything. I type everything in by hand. I type in the schedules. I type in everybody's odds. I do these weird player rankings. I'm like a psycho, but it's this whole process. So I'm, At the end of phase one of it, so later in this podcast, we're bringing in our friend Nate Tice, and we're going to talk about three levels of teams that could make a leap in 2025. Because you guys start thinking about the futures, what's going to happen? So that's coming up later, big football podcast, conversation with Nate, but leading off with

• 2:47Bill Simmons?

  Matt Belloni, who hosts The Town for us, but we, we got to talk about Stephen Colbert, CBS, Trump, Skydance, Paramount, everything that's going on. How does this affect Jon Stewart is late night TV dead? There are just so many storylines with this that it's the rare podcast where we're leading with Hollywood stuff. So that's all coming up next. I had a whole NBA thing I was going to do, but I think I'm going to save that for a later podcast. So that's it. That's what I got for you. Matt Belloni, Nate Tice, Hollywood, football, all next. Let's take a break and then Pro Jap.

• 3:50Bill Simmons?

  All right. Matt Belloni is here. He hosts a great podcast called The Town for The Ringer. He, you could also read him on Puck and we have Friday news dumps in media. And there's been some great ones over the year. When we get to July, you can almost pull off the Thursday news dump, Matt Belloni. And CBS did this, they shockingly, although I guess it wasn't as shocking as, as maybe it felt when it happened, shockingly got rid of Stephen Colbert show in May. It's going to be gone. This could be the death of late night TV on CBS. And as you've covered in Puck and you covered on your podcast on Friday, we are moving toward a different era of late night, which might not even be an era. Were you surprised by this when you heard the news?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Yes, the, the short answer is yes, because I didn't think they would pull the plug like that. I thought there would be a protracted cuts and salary reduction and an attempt to save the show rather than simply cut bait. But at the time, I didn't know, and I think most people around town did not know how much money Late Show was losing each year, because CBS had kept that pretty quiet. And once I got into the numbers, it makes sense there that they would say, you know what, this is not salvageable. This is not a matter of Colbert taking a 30% pay cut, firing some people, getting rid of the ban, all the

• 5:19Speaker 01

  things that we've seen in other areas of late night. There was just a big chasm, because the show costs more than $100 million a year to make. Depending on who you believe, it's well over $40 million that it's losing, or about 40 million, which is what my sourcing says. Now, there are some caveats to that and some ancillary revenue that's not counted there, but that's just not tenable. And then you have the politics angle, which we can discuss. But no, once you get into the numbers, it's not surprising.

• 5:48Bill Simmons?

  I have the politics angle saved for the second piece of this. The first part, so you reported $40 million a year it's losing, which seemed high to me when, but I, I'm not gonna say I don't believe it, but it seemed high. I always wonder with studios, we see this all the time with backend deals with movies and, you know, they, they can kind of rig numbers however they want. What, how come, I know they're telling you 40 million.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Well, my sourcing is telling me.

• 6:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we're sourcing, you're hearing.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  But it's not just coming from one source. Let's just say that.

• 6:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but I'm saying.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  I run these numbers by many people in the ecosystem of a show.

• 6:26Bill Simmons?

  But we've seen people go the other way with this where if they want to brag about something, they could say, oh, it's making this.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's generating this amount in revenue, which is what they often will say, not accounting for the costs. And Late Show is a complicated thing because it's produced by CBS Studios. So essentially CBS, the network pays CBS Studios a license fee for the show. So it adds another level of complexity. We saw this with Family Guy years ago where Family Guy was technically losing money for Fox, but because Fox produced the show, it was making money because they sold the show all over the world in syndication, other rights where they were making a fortune on it, even if they weren't making money on Fox. Now that

• 7:14Speaker 01

  is not an option that is available to a show like Late Show with Stephen Colbert because it is a American topical comedy show. It doesn't have much value after it airs on the linear channel and on the YouTube channel. It just kind of goes away. So that you take away that revenue, you take away the fact that it's a much smaller show on digital footprints. It has about a third the YouTube subscribers as Jimmy Fallon does on The Tonight Show, half of what Kimmel has. And then you look at the other value that Colbert has for CBS where he doesn't do a lot of other things for CBS. He produced The Late Night Show after

• 7:55Speaker 01

  midnight, which got canceled after Taylor Tomlinson left, but he's not hosting the Macy's Day Parade like Fallon is. He's not doing Millionaire for ABC like Kimmel is. It's those two guys have much more of an ingrained relationship with their network than Stephen Colbert does. He just hosted a show.

• 8:16Bill Simmons?

  Right. So what he definitely, the show lost money. There's no question. They could probably get creative about how much they're saying it. You made the key point, though. It didn't have the same social media footprint. As the two Jimmys, especially because they can make a bunch of money on the YouTube side. This goes backwards though, because you have to really go to COVID where that's really when the ad money started to shift for all of these, for all of these shows, partly because of COVID, the writer's strike. But then you also have just habits are shifting, you know,

• 8:50Speaker 01

  When was the last time you, Bill Simmons cozied up to a late night show at the 1130 hour and just sat and watched it?

• 9:00Bill Simmons?

  I'm always gonna watch it on streaming or on, I'll watch a YouTube clip. The only time I can remember doing this recently was with Jon Stewart's first show back.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  I will occasionally watch Stewart if I'm like up and I will flip over, but Colbert was getting 2.5 million viewers on average on linear, which shockingly in this day and age, it was the leading show according to that metric on broadcast. Now, if you talk the Fox News guy Greg Gutfeld gets more, but that's a whole other thing. It's

• 9:29Bill Simmons?

  And it's on at 11.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  And the audience is like, you know, literally hooked up to an IV because they're so old. But the, the, the fact that the leading show got canceled, I think is shocking to a lot of people. But the stuff that you just talked about, the digital and the other things, that's where it, it comes into greater focus. And you're like, oh, okay. I get it.

• 9:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, so here's, here's what I don't get. So the model's changing. They're still making all these late night shows in the same expensive way they're doing it 20, 25 years ago. Right. Where you have, I don't know how many people work on a late night show, but it's a ton.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  They say 200. Colbert said 200.

• 10:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was gonna say 175 to 200 people working on a show that you're delivering four nights a week. Usually you're taking summers off 40 weeks a year. So it's, so in the old days, the model for the late night show was, well, this is eating innings, like almost like a starter that can throw 250 innings of baseball. It's like, oh, every five days we get to trot this out.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  And it's, it used to be a younger demo. It used to be a place where younger people would go to CBS because usually the prime time audience was older and the Letterman audience was younger at the beginning. And it was really the only place that you would get to see, you know, big stars like Leo DiCaprio or, you know, George Clooney on these networks because they would come on the late night show. And it was sort of a cachet thing.

• 11:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was the number one stop if you were promoting anything. And then as we saw really in the last, I would say since the 2016 election, when podcasts became, you know, moved into the conversation for all that stuff. I just thought, I, it was weird to me, there wasn't any innovation with the model. And I think there was an innovation because these shows made a shitload of money until recently, until those two events. I think they kind of didn't want to change. It was like, well, it's, if it ain't broken, don't, don't fix it. But when you think about it, you have all these people that work for a show. You have really talented hosts and you have this social media, you know, all these, all these side things you could be doing to just kind of do the show the same way you did it 10 years ago doesn't make sense.

• 11:44Bill Simmons?

  So the part that does, that surprises me mad is they didn't go to him and say, hey, let's make a real effort to try to fix this. The show loses money, late night is changing. How can we do a completely different show? Maybe you only need 10 people that work for the show. Maybe it's just you doing one long guest, we'll pay your salary, we'll have a couple of producers and that'll just be the show four days a week. Instead, they were like, we're out in May. This is a wrap. This is done and we'll get to, you know, some conspiracy stuff with that. But to not go to him and say, how can we fix this? When he'd been there for, I don't know, a decade? I was really surprised by that.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  I think it's hard to do that to a show where there are employees that have worked there for 10, 20 years and a host that is used to making a certain amount, $20 million a year is what I've been told. And to say, we need to do something completely different. These people that have been supporting you since you started on this network. 70% of them are going to be gone. And this salary that you've been making and you've been building up your entire career, you're going to make half as much.

• 12:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but they did it. They did it by canceling the show. They did it anyway.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  They did.

• 13:00Bill Simmons?

  So if you're doing it anyway, like, why isn't there a plan B for it?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. And I just think from my sourcing, the response I got to that was it's almost like a level of respect with a host and with a team where it's like, we can't just gut it. Like, there is a, there is a certain amount of cutting we can do to these shows that they are still recognizable. You can still do the Seth Meyers Show without a band. So they said, your band is gone. You can still do these shows four nights a week without cutting so much to the bone that they're not, they don't feel like nightly talk shows. So they cut all these shows, Tonight Shows, four nights a week, Colbert, four nights a week. So there is, but if you start going beyond that, and my understanding is that the, the

• 13:49Speaker 01

  value and the, the, the loss discrepancy there was so large that it would have been such a fundamentally different show that it was just hard to have that conversation. That is my understanding. Now, we can, we can get into the other reasons as well, but I, I do kind of understand how you either do it or don't. The other thing is CBS owns that building, the Ed Sullivan Theater. And if you look at what they've been doing across the company, they sold Television City in LA, they sold BlackRock in New York. They are going to sell the Ed Sullivan Theater for a lot of money. So what do you say to Colbert? Oh, and by the way, you're going to move to a tiny studio uptown that is going to make

• 14:31Speaker 01

  your show look like, like it's, you know, John Oliver, where it doesn't feel like a nightly talk show. Like, it just, I don't know, when you start to really look at it, you say, okay, what are we even doing here?

• 14:44Bill Simmons?

  Right. And, and maybe this is just a format that now when we're in this Tik Tok, Instagram, YouTube era, and we have a kajillion podcasts that maybe this is, maybe this is the natural end of the format. I know everybody's been talking about it forever. Kimmel's openly talked about how this is probably his last deal and then maybe do something else. And maybe this is just, maybe this is how it ends. Like when we were growing up, you watch Carson live at 1130, like you, you know, and if you missed it, there was really no way to, to see what happened unless you started taping out of VCR or something. And now it's like, if anything happens, but if anything happens on a late night show now, I'll be able to see the clip the next day.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 15:27Bill Simmons?

  So you've removed all of the, all of the necessity to watch it in the moment.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and you talk about innovation and the lack of innovation in the format. I, I disagree a little bit, only in the sense that the, the stuntification of late night, I think is an innovation and the acknowledgement that

• 15:45Bill Simmons?

  What does that mean?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Means the, the viral moment with Olivia Rodrigo, Rihanna and Seth Meyers day drinking.

• 15:51Bill Simmons?

  That's from 10 years ago. I mean, that, that mid 2010s was even like, you go back to Jimmy doing the, I'm fucking Ben Affleck, I'm fucking Matt Damon. That was 2008.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Totally agree, but the Corden show, for instance, largely existed to produce those moments. They knew nobody was watching at 1230. They didn't even really try at 1230. They put all their efforts into these franchise bits and segments that not only could live on digital, but became other shows. They were selling Carpool Karaoke, the series to Apple. They were selling, you know, there's a, a, all sorts of things that they sold. They were partnering directly with advertisers to create segments that would live on the 1230 show, but mostly were there for YouTube. So I think they were tweaking it. It didn't change the fact that these hour long shows were, you know, monologue bit.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  A celebrity, B celebrity, musical guest, good night. Like, that didn't change, and maybe it should have. But I don't know, I just don't think anything could have really stemmed the tide of the viewer erosion that we've seen. People just aren't watching stuff.

• 17:06Bill Simmons?

  And I know Colbert had a big rating, but CBS, I mean, my dad loved CBS. He was devastated when Blue Bloods got canceled.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Mine too.

• 17:14Bill Simmons?

  Half of that audience is keeled over on the couch with their heads here to the right, and just whatever is on is what's getting a, getting a rating. Like, I don't, I don't even know what the answer would have been if I'm CBS and it's like, let's, let's put something different in here. What, should we, let's bring in Theo Von, maybe we can get Theo. Like, they're not doing that, so I don't even know.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Theo Von doesn't want that job.

• 17:35Bill Simmons?

  No, no. Well, that's, that was the interesting thing with Taylor Tomlinson, because they renewed the show.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:41Bill Simmons?

  And she said, I, I actually quit, I don't want to do this anymore, because.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Wasn't helping her.

• 17:47Bill Simmons?

  I was saying this to somebody that, a few, few months ago, actually, Nate Bargatze, who is an awesome guy who sells out NBA arenas all over the place, right? Any, anytime he wants, he could just go to another 10, 15, 18, 20,000 venue and do comedy for two hours, and he makes a ton of money. That's the kind of guy in 1989, we would have been like, oh, could he be the next 1230 host?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  And the chances are.

• 18:12Bill Simmons?

  Now, there's no fucking way he's doing that.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  No, he would have taken that job 30 years ago. Look at your guy, Shane Gillis. Shane Gillis would be absolutely groomed for a talk show of some sort, or a big studio movie.

• 18:25Bill Simmons?

  Shane Gillis too edgy to have a 1230 show. We would have had all.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Or he would have done an R-rated comedy for a big studio and had his moment trying to be a movie star. He's not even trying to be a movie star. He's, you know, doing his own comedy tour, he did his own show that he brought to Sunday. No, he didn't bring it to Sunday. He did his own show and he sold it to Netflix after he made it. Because he just did it on his own. Like, he doesn't need these platforms, because these guys have such big touring businesses on their own.

• 18:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, I look at somebody like Kimmel. Kimmel got the ABC show, which I was lucky enough to get hired for and get to meet him and get his whole crew. Um, you know, he's on the man show. They have this spot at 12, it's gonna be 12 05 ABC, right after Nightline. And it's him versus Jon Stewart and it's like this coveted piece of TV real estate. If you took 2002 Jimmy now and just put him in a time machine, he wouldn't want to host a late night show. He would want to, you know, he would, he would probably try to either have some sort of daily Sirius Stern show, or he would want to have like his version of a big podcast that's four or five days a week.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, he would have already moved toward a late night show. Right. First of all, he would have already had a following on digital that he owned as his following.

• 19:43Bill Simmons?

  True.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Right?

• 19:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they would have owned the man show. They would have been putting out the clips.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and he would have had to look and say, okay, do I want to tie myself down to a late night ABC show for Disney? Or do I want to own my destiny and grow? And yeah, maybe I'll host the SBs. Maybe I'll do other things like Shane Gillis just did, but I don't need that. Best thing that ever happened to Shane Gillis was he got fired off SNL before he ever aired.

• 20:09Bill Simmons?

  Right? You're right. No, you're a hundred percent right.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  He would have gone into the churn and become another one of those people where five years later, we're all saying, oh, well, they have careers afterward. And nobody's saying that about him now. He's a power.

• 20:22Bill Simmons?

  Right. No, you're right. I think with, uh, with the, when we talk about like the future of late night, which basically there is no future.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  You don't think there's any future. See, that's, that is the question is like.

• 20:35Bill Simmons?

  But to me, it's like SNL is still getting huge ratings and a big piece of that is that it's live. And I do wonder if, and ironically Jimmy was the one that his show is called Jimmy Came Alive because he did it live.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  For, was it just for a couple of weeks?

• 20:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was a couple of months actually, but there are all these reasons why we couldn't do it that way anymore.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you were there. I was not there. I, I've heard some stories.

• 20:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you know, it wasn't a great model and it was very unreliable and a million things could go wrong every day. But ironically, that might be the model that works now for late night where it's like, this is live. You don't know what the fuck's gonna happen.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  The big wild card in all of this is what the streamers are gonna do about this kind of comedy. Because so far, the late night host model has largely not worked on streaming. There was a Hasan Minhaj show. There's been efforts to take these broadcast shows and

• 21:29Bill Simmons?

  Why are you saying largely? It's never worked. There hasn't been one success.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Oliver and Bill Maher do okay on HBO Max.

• 21:36Bill Simmons?

  And Oliver and Bill Maher, Bill Maher launched in 2004 and Oliver launched, what, 2014?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  But those shows do well on the service, whereas late night with Stephen, the late show with Stephen Colbert did not do well on Paramount Plus. And Kimmel's numbers, I don't know what Kimmel's numbers are on Hulu, but I'm betting they're not great because the clips are all free on YouTube. For some reason, the Bill Maher and John Oliver shows, they are churn protectors at HBO Max, meaning people are subscribed to those services for those shows and are their fans. And if you cancel them, those people will be pissed and may leave. And they keep people coming back to an app that is not the first choice for a lot of people in streaming. So they have a pretty big value to HBO Max. Netflix, where

• 22:25Speaker 01

  no one show is particularly important to Netflix because they have so much, they have not been able to launch this kind of comedy. And we just this last week, got the numbers for Mulaney. And Mulaney did not try to do a mainstream talk show. Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. It was, I watched it many times. I'm a fan. It was not a mainstream show. But I was surprised at how few people watched. She got 1.6 million for the first episode, and it went precipitously downhill from there. And it averaged 500,000 viewers for the entire season. Not great.

• 23:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he cared about having a giant audience for that show. I think he wanted, I think they gave him a lot of money to do whatever the hell he wanted.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:08Bill Simmons?

  And he wanted to make a very meta show that people would love. A small group of people would really, really love. And it might get nominated, but I guess it didn't get nominated for awards, but.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  It didn't, but there was only three categories. He got nominated, I believe, in some small category, but it was renewed. They did, they ordered two seasons. So we'll see if they actually air the second one.

• 23:27Bill Simmons?

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• 24:12Bill Simmons?

  to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead, but what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. You mentioned Gutfield before. If you look at the last 10 years of, of talk shows, whether they're weekly or daily that have launched, and I would like to include myself, that lasted less than 20 episodes.

• 24:52Bill Simmons?

  None of them worked, not one of them. I don't think any of them made it. And I, and I think the number is actually way, way bigger than you'd think. These shows are not, uh, are not hitting.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Sam B had a moment. Sam B did okay for a while.

• 25:07Bill Simmons?

  Got canceled.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  It did.

• 25:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I guess she like, that one maybe lasted two years, but, um, but what's interesting is we've had a million successful podcasts, right? And we've had podcasts that are weekly, like even Poller's podcast recently, but then we'll have the ones that are three, four, five times a week.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Poller's a perfect example. Poller would have had a talk show.

• 25:26Bill Simmons?

  Twenty years ago, she would have been on NBC 1230.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Amy Poller would have been a hot commodity and she would have gotten a show somewhere. Daytime or, or, or evening, uh, whatever she wanted. Uh, Conan is a great, like test case of, of the new normal here because he made it. He had the 1230 show. They moved into 1130, didn't work. Under those terms of the time that he was there, they'd kill for those numbers now.

• 25:53Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Then he went to TBS and in cable, it kinda worked for a little while because there was still an audience there. Then didn't make sense in cable, went to do his own podcast and he's never been more popular. He, he, he got demoted to podcast territory, quote unquote, and it made him even more popular to the point where Turner gave him a travelogue show, which got nominated for Emmys and he hosted the freaking Oscars. And he got a Kennedy Senator Award, you know, like Conan's never been cooler and he's arguably been like put into the wilderness.

• 26:29Bill Simmons?

  It's crazy. I mean, that the only shows that are the outliers are Saturday Night Live, um, Mar and Oliver. Like, and then Kimmel's model, I, I still think Kimmel and Fallon are really, really, really relevant on YouTube. I mean, they have massive, massive channels. If something happens on those shows, everyone's going to see it. And they were able to crack the code on that, but that doesn't explain why those shows have to be on at 1135 at night every night. And that's where it gets dicey.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Is, is Olivia Rodrigo and, uh, you know, name your big star, Tom Cruise. Is Tom Cruise going on Fallon if it's just a digital show?

• 27:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, probably not.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  I don't know because Tom Cruise's people are sophisticated. They know the currency of him going on Fallon is not the 1130 audience. It's whatever he does and says travels the universe online. But there is a kind of imprimatur of quality and prestige that The Tonight Show has with a certain audience. And when you're scrolling through YouTube, it's not just Jimmy Kimmel or Jimmy Fallon doing a stunt with a celebrity. You can get that on Hot Ones, you can get it on Chicken Shop Date, you can get it on a Million Maron, you can get on Bill Simmons. But there's something about The Tonight Show that is a differentiator. I don't know how long that branding matters, especially to young people, but it still

• 27:56Speaker 01

  does kind of matter that it's a TV show.

• 28:00Bill Simmons?

  The Tonight Show will be the last one left.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  So you have The Tonight Show and your last man standing.

• 28:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and I don't even know if it'll be Fallon necessarily. I just think that show never goes away.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Someone will replace him. Someone will get that show and it will outlive Fallon.

• 28:14Bill Simmons?

  I think The Tonight Show and Saturday Night Live will never, when we're live, those shows will always exist. Those will be the two. Kimmel's show, as soon as he's done doing it, that show will be done.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:24Bill Simmons?

  Nobody's replacing that. CBS has already punted it. Yeah. But I think The Tonight Show is enough of an institution. I don't know, like, let's say you're running NBC. Do you want to be the person that got rid of Saturday Night Live and The Tonight Show? You're not, nobody's doing that.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  I agree with you. SNL is a different thing because they can significantly cut the budget of that show when, once Lauren is gone, and it's still SNL. It may not be as good.

• 28:51Bill Simmons?

  They could also make more shows. They're in 20 a year.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  I know.

• 28:54Bill Simmons?

  And they sit out the summer when 900 things are happening. Like, I can't believe they do that.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  It's partly because of the way the show is made. It's so difficult to make it the way they make.

• 29:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but it's an opportunity for somebody to compete with them directly in a real way.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  They could do a summer stunt SNL for, you know, four weeks in July and sell ads into it and capture all the news and people would watch. But Lauren doesn't want to do that.

• 29:22Bill Simmons?

  No, maybe the-

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Lauren's on Paul McCartney's yacht for most of the summer.

• 29:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, maybe the next person would. All right, so-

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Well, what, so who do you think is next? Seth obviously has a target.

• 29:35Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I hate speculating on what shows are gonna go.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  You know all these guys.

• 29:39Bill Simmons?

  No, no, it's not even, yeah, I do know, but it's not even that. It's, you could just see where it's heading. I think what was interesting about this Colbert thing beyond all the stuff we already talked about is, you know, there's real conspiracy angles with this, with this Paramount being settled. Colbert was killing, Trump in the settlement this week. Two days later, the whole thing happens and they, they executed it pretty, pretty fastidiously.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Yes. So where do you fall on the conspiracy scale? Do you think this is 10% politics, 90% politics?

• 30:16Bill Simmons?

  I think the show lost money and I think they, whatever this mer, this is my take. I don't have full inside information. This is just me reading the tea leaves and being a smart person. I think I'm a smart person. Um, I think this merger's going through. The new guy doesn't want to take over CBS Paramount and the first thing you do is get rid of Colbert. But I also think the merger wasn't going through unless they start kowtowing to the president with stuff like this.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Oh, so you think it was a quid pro quo? We will not approve your merger unless you fire Stephen Colbert.

• 30:52Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it was that. I think it was a concern

• 30:57Bill Simmons?

  that this would be the type of, I mean, as we're recording this today, he just said how he wants Washington to, uh, to become the Redskins again, or he's not going to approve the new RFK stadium. I think this is a piece of a bigger chess move where it's not just this. I'm, I'm genuinely worried about Stuart's show and the Daily Show and whether that's going to be next.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Do you think that, that, that there is, uh, some kind of macro agreement between Paramount, the new owners, David Ellison and crew, and the Trump administration to wipe the slate clean of media that Trump does not like?

• 31:36Bill Simmons?

  Does Bill think that? I don't know. Does conspiracy Bill think that? A hundred percent.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Listen, it's impossible to know. Trump could announce tomorrow that this was all his plan, and I don't think I would believe him if he said it. So we'll know. If the Daily Show is canceled on Monday, we'll know exactly what's going on. Daily Show, by the way, also not a profit center. But we do. But the Daily Show is on Comedy Central. There has to be a certain amount of original programming on these cable networks to justify their carriage fees. So the economics are a little different there. It's also a lot less expensive to produce The Daily Show than it is to do a show like Late Show. But if they just cut bait on Jon Stewart and the full Daily Show, then we know that this is pressure.

• 32:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, then it's not even worth discussing. I think the irony of this is The Daily Show and that Jon Stewart move was not even just a home run for them. It was a grand slam. It completely reinvigorated the show. It reinvigorated him.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:38Bill Simmons?

  It's been awesome content.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  And they've been bragging about it. That's the thing. They put out a press release last week about how Stewart's ratings are up. You don't do that if you're planning to cancel the show.

• 32:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that's the thing. It's, it's, there's so much money at stake and so much real estate with whatever this merger is, that if this is the casualty, it's like, oh, just get rid of those two shows. Like, you know how these freaking super crazy rich people, like they...

• 33:07Speaker 01

  These two money losing shows that only causes headaches.

• 33:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm like, I don't want to deal with this show. I don't want, I don't want this to be my problem when it comes in. I thought it was interesting that you reported on this about how, what's his name, George Cheeks?

• 33:21Speaker 01

  George Cheeks is the head of CBS.

• 33:22Bill Simmons?

  Multiple CEOs, right?

• 33:24Speaker 01

  They have three CEOs running Paramount, but Cheeks is in charge of CBS.

• 33:28Bill Simmons?

  And Chris McCarthy is the one in charge of Comedy Central, who is very instrumental in bringing Stuart back.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:35Bill Simmons?

  And we also don't know which one of these CEOs, who has the most juice, do they have equal juice?

• 33:41Speaker 01

  No, we do know that Chris McCarthy is expected to leave the company. And George Cheeks is expected to stay. So my theory that I have voiced on the town is that I think George Cheeks is signaling to the new ownership with this cancellation that he can make the tough, unemotional decisions on money losing sacred cows like Stephen Colbert. And if it happens to please the president at a time when Skydance could really use the president to be happy with them, then that's a added bonus. So I would say I'm less conspiratorial than maybe Conspiracy Bill is.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  But I do acknowledge the cloud of politics that is hovering over all of this. I just think that CBS has been looking at this a long time. They know that this is not getting better. It's not like they take a little pay cut here, survive for a year or two, and then they come back when the ad market comes back. The ad market is not coming back in linear television. And if you're looking at this unemotionally, shows that are not making money should not be on the air. And we're going to see, I think, with the new Skydance regime at Paramount, a significant cut in the original programming on CBS and all the channels. We're going to see primetime get gutted. We're going to see, you know, morning and afternoon.

• 35:06Bill Simmons?

  Didn't primetime already get gutted?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  It's been gutted, but CBS has been one of the few that is hanging on to scripted programming during primetime. If you look at CBS, they have less of the reality and news programming during primetime than NBC and ABC do. And they've been justifying that because they say their audience is older. They're still watching TV. They still have these hits and they can sell those shows to streaming services later, either their own or another one, or they sell them over to syndication overseas or wherever. I just think that that money is coming down, down. So maybe CBS stops programming Friday nights. Maybe they in their new deal.

• 35:48Bill Simmons?

  What's gonna go on there? By the way, they could do what ABC does and just run a three hour Bachelor in Paradise episode, which is what they did on Tuesday night.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Or the new show.

• 35:56Bill Simmons?

  Bachelor in Paradise.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, they or they have Kimmel, you know, do two hours of Celebrity Millionaire on ABC.

• 36:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's a good show. I support Celebrity Millionaire.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  They do Celebrity Wheel of Fortune. They have, you know, Elizabeth Banks doing Press Your Luck during prime time. They have Steve Harvey doing a judge show. There's a judge show starring Steve Harvey on ABC in prime time. It's kind of amazing and they do that because it's cheap and the economics don't justify the amount of money they spend on scripted. CBS is making a couple of comedies this year. They're making a comedy called DMV. And the economics on that show, they're shooting it in Montreal, they're paying people nothing. It's like a fraction of what a half hour comedy used to cost on CBS. They're just cutting, cutting, cutting and not doing originals on broadcast because these are like newspapers and magazines now.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  They are dying businesses and the only way to make money on them is to suck them dry. Just cut all the costs and take the revenue as long as you can.

• 37:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, we, we said in the earlier part of the 2020s, these networks were just going to become sports, late night and morning programming.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  News.

• 37:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And now, now the late night piece is going away. There's one part I don't understand with the Colbert piece. Conspiracy Bill doesn't understand it and Bill doesn't understand it either.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Timing.

• 37:22Bill Simmons?

  Why say until May?

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Okay, so.

• 37:25Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand that part. Like, why not just say after September sweeps or November sweeps, we're done. We're going in December, there's no more Colbert show. Why go all the way through May?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, his deal goes all the way through May. So they're paying him regardless. And secondly, the way that producer deals on Colbert work is the producers on the show are signed from September through August.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  That's actually why this was coming up now. People are like, why now? You know, if they, if they, if this wasn't related to the merger, then just, you know, wait till the deal closes and then fire him then. The reason they had to do it now, according to sources, is they have these deals with producers that go from September through August, and they were going to have to go to these producers and say, honestly, your deal's only going to go through May next year, not August. So what is, what is Joe Blow producer gonna think when he hears that? Oh, the show's being canceled. Secondly, they had a negotiation coming up. Your guy Baby Doll, he would have started to make noises about a new deal

• 38:31Speaker 01

  right around now if they wanted to keep Colbert for a new deal. And my understanding is that there was some questions like, oh, do we want to get into it with them? Do we want to do this? And it sort of forced the issue now. Colbert is the one that wanted to announce it now. CBS was not positioning this to be announced right now. I think they knew what the optics would be on this. But Colbert was like, if, if the show's ending, I need to let my people know right away. First of all, they need to look for other jobs. These, many of these people have been here for a decade or two. That's not easy to get another job in this world that you need to give them time. And secondly, it's going to leak. These things never hold. So if it's going to leak, he want, they told him Wednesday night.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  He said, I'm telling my people on Thursday before the show, put out whatever press release you want, and then it'll air on the show Thursday night and done. And he did. And I think the fact that he's got 10 months in the chair to do whatever he wants is going to be pretty interesting.

• 39:29Bill Simmons?

  So I just want to say I deliberately did not talk to Baby Doll about any of this. Because I didn't want to be-

• 39:36Speaker 01

  He was going on vacation.

• 39:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, yeah, he might, he might not be home either, but I, I haven't talked to him about any of this.

• 39:43Bill Simmons?

  We're taping this on a Sunday and I think it's really important when taping this on a Sunday because as far as I know, Jon Stewart has a show on Monday.

• 39:53Bill Simmons?

  And that is going to be the most fascinating show that we've had since the Letterman extortion, whatever that episode was, which we didn't know was coming.

• 40:05Bill Simmons?

  First of all, Jon Stewart is already rich.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:09Bill Simmons?

  And he's already done a million kajillion things and he could give two shits.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:13Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 40:14Speaker 01

  For him, it's about his reputation.

• 40:17Bill Simmons?

  That's it. He doesn't, he is gonna stand up for his dude and, and this is it. This is, in my opinion, one of the most important shows he's ever done. There's no way he's not gonna talk about it.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Well, the question is, does he quit on the air?

• 40:31Bill Simmons?

  I think it's in play. I think it's actually like a must watch show like that. I like, it comes on at eight o'clock here. Like I'm definitely watching that live.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  So here's a good question. If Stewart just dive bombs the entire company, quits on the air, drops some F bombs, names, names, the whole thing, do they air it? Because he tapes.

• 40:58Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he'll do that because he's got a whole staff working for him.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:02Bill Simmons?

  And he's gonna be, but I also think he's gonna have to stand up and I think everybody would have his back about, you know, how he's gonna feel about this. But yeah, I, I don't, if they cancel the show, I think he'll be fine. I don't think it'll be fine for a lot of people that work for it. I think he'll feel bad about that. But this is, the whole point of the show is he's gonna, he has to stand up to this. This is, this is 25 years of him on Comedy Central, basically. Like, you know, I just don't, he doesn't, he's not sitting this one out.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And does this issue metastasize to a larger paramount question? They're negotiating right now to bring back the South Park guys and South Park, you know, they've had, this is, South Park's dispute is over money. They have been fighting with the new regime because the Skydance people have to approve the new Paramount deal. And my understanding is that they are working towards a settlement, but do those guys go nuclear on them? I don't think they will because they like making the show and literally it's, they're gonna make billions of dollars in their next deal. But.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Others could feel differently. There's a whole.

• 42:09Bill Simmons?

  But I disagree though, because I think they're in the same spot as Jon Stewart. Those guys have made a fucking crazy amount of money already.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  And I don't know, man.

• 42:17Bill Simmons?

  The whole point of that show is they stand up to shit like this.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  That's true. They could still do it and not quit. I'm saying, do they quit? I don't think the South Park guys quit.

• 42:27Bill Simmons?

  Or just do it for somebody else.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Well, they can't do South Park for anyone else.

• 42:31Bill Simmons?

  No, but they could just create a different show.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, they could do that. They got a Kendrick movie coming out next year. They could do other things, but they have shown over almost 30 years that they really like doing South Park. And, and I think that they will fuck around with the owners, but I don't think they will quit.

• 42:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, this is unprecedented territory.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 42:53Bill Simmons?

  We have a, we have a show get canceled and people's first reaction is, did the president make this happen?

• 43:01Speaker 01

  It's so crazy.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  It is. Guess who owns the network that has the number one show in late night? Fox, Rupert Murdoch, who Trump sued on Friday.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Cause Murdoch owns the Wall Street Journal and they did the Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump story. And Murdoch has been a, an ally of sorts. He gets into his spats with Trump every once in a while. But Fox is owned by the Murdochs and now they're in litigation with the president. It's so crazy.

• 43:32Bill Simmons?

  I think this has a chance to be the weirdest Hollywood year ever.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 43:37Bill Simmons?

  We have five and a half months left and I just feel like we're headed toward, like this was the first salvo. I just feel like there's more coming movies of, movies with the, in some ways, the movie business is back. Right?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Maybe a little bit. Sure. I'll give you that.

• 43:54Bill Simmons?

  IMAX and you know, that like there's been, there's been some positive momentum. And then on the other hand, like, I don't know what's gonna happen with the award season. The TV season, like I, who the fuck knows? Are there even gonna be a network show that anyone cares about anymore?

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Certainly not C C L A. That's not, that's not happening. Will the Office spinoff work? The paper?

• 44:16Bill Simmons?

  Right. And then also like

• 44:17Speaker 01

  That's going to Peacock.

• 44:19Bill Simmons?

  But all these other non Netflix streamers are now starting to really cut back on the content they're making. And this is going to be the first time I think people are going to feel a real void. Like just not, it's not going to be this T-shirt cannon shooting out shows every, now it's going to be, you have these, like I just watched the Netflix, the missing lady show on the yacht.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Which one? The missing lady of the week on Netflix?

• 44:44Bill Simmons?

  Missing lady on the yacht, whatever that one was called. I watched all three episodes.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Did you watch poop cruise?

• 44:48Bill Simmons?

  TV now. Of course I watched poop cruise.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Who didn't?

• 44:53Speaker 01

  It was number one on one of the charts one week. Yeah. I mean, the number one franchise on Netflix right now is called Trainwreck. And it's an unscripted documentary franchise about things that happened in the 2000s and 2010s that made cable news headlines, but Gen Z didn't know about and millennials kind of forgot about. That's basically the franchise.

• 45:14Bill Simmons?

  It's like, wait, what's this bubble boy? And now my daughter's watching that going, dad, what's up with bubble boy?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly. The fall of Brett Favre. What happened there?

• 45:24Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well, and then you have like shows like Game of Thrones, summer I turned pretty, season three, my daughter is like approaching it like it's a Superbowl.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I know.

• 45:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's just TVs. I think what's really changed the most is that they're the monoculture of a TV show. I think is just, I don't even know like what my daughter's generation shows that they're going to share other than Stranger Things.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Wednesday.

• 45:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's, but it's like less than 10.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  I know. And, and Stranger Things, check me on the number, but I believe when it ends at the end of this year, Stranger Things will have made and aired like 60 something episodes over 10 years.

• 46:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  It just, it just takes so long to make these shows now that there's no such thing as like, oh, it's September, we're back in school. Let's check out the new season of The Cosby Show. Like there's 22 of these coming. Like it's just not the same anymore.

• 46:21Bill Simmons?

  I was on a text thread with some friends who were my age. There was this thing that was online. It was the entire Nielsen ratings of the 76, 77 TV season. It was like 100 shows and it was like one to 100. It was like Laverne and Shirley Happy Days. And we're on the thread and I was like, I don't understand how I watched 70 of these 100 shows as they were happening. Like, I'm just going down the line. Like, I definitely watched that. I watched that. When I was an only child, I guess I had a little.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  And you were clearly watching sports and movies, too.

• 46:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but and maybe I didn't watch all of them, but I felt like I did. And anecdotally, I felt like I knew at least what was going on a little bit. And now it's like, what are those shows like that now? They're just.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Well, if you look at the number, the top 100 shows from last year, like 90 of them are football games.

• 47:07Bill Simmons?

  I know. Well, what was interesting about 76, 77, what number do you think Monday Night Football was in the ratings that year?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Fascinating. Clearly not top 20 because you would have mentioned it.

• 47:17Bill Simmons?

  It was 20th.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  It was 20th. Okay. So it was still big.

• 47:22Bill Simmons?

  Still big, but not like Happy Days big, but that's.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  That's true. And still, they didn't figure out that if they did that three nights a week, people would also watch three nights a week of football.

• 47:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, now it's gonna be like five or six. Yeah. Well, that's the only thing that in the end, it's just gonna be sports that survives.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and that sports is now so expensive that these companies can't really afford much else. CBS is in a perfect example. Like, they are looking at this renegotiation that the NFL can do after they change control because they have a right to renegotiate.

• 47:55Bill Simmons?

  They're doing it, too.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  They're gonna, of course, do it. They're gonna extract, extract, extract. That's why I think it wouldn't be surprising to me if the NFL like got a night of television on CBS or an hour twice a week to do highlights during the season or, you know, some propaganda show about how great the NFL is in your community. Like something, they'll get something out of CBS and they'll be able to take some games away probably to sell them to Netflix.

• 48:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, the prices of like when ESPN sold off some of their college football playoff games, I couldn't believe that. I mean, we're about to find out what happens with UFC and I think Netflix is going to get the UFC.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Well, Dana White, Dana White said this past week that he's looking forward to being in business with a global platform.

• 48:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  So what does that?

• 48:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, so it's, it's two deals. It's the numbered pay-per-views and then it's kind of the rest of it. And, you know, if it's going to Amazon or Netflix or whoever, it's going to be the numbered ones.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm guessing he doesn't mean Apple, even though they technically are a global platform, but I'm betting it's Amazon or Netflix. It's gotta be one of those.

• 49:00Bill Simmons?

  Apple's back.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Oh, you think so?

• 49:02Bill Simmons?

  F1, they're rejuvenating. They're gonna make more movies now.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  I liked it.

• 49:06Bill Simmons?

  They're back, baby.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  But, but it doesn't bother you that that movie is probably not going to be profitable in theaters?

• 49:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that goes back to our accounting thing that we talked about before.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 49:15Bill Simmons?

  It could be, they'll probably say it was super profitable and the answer is probably in the middle somewhere.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  They will say it has tremendous value on the service. And great, we'll see if it pops up on the Nielsen chart. I bet it will because it's got a lot of attention. Um, you know, they said that about Killers of the Flower Moon, which definitely lost money in theaters, but they got a ton of Oscar nominations. Tim Cook got to tweet about Leo DiCaprio and Martin Scorsese and it was a sort of brand halo for Apple. And if that's why they're in the entertainment business, then God bless them. Cause so far at least it's certainly not to make money.

• 49:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, that is true. I will say, and I've been critical about some of the Apple shows for the last couple of years, but I do feel like they, I have a better sense of what an Apple show is now, even than when we talked about it on your pod, you know, six months ago. There is some sort of a blueprint now with like the one big star and there's some sort of angle.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  They are the star fucker network.

• 50:10Bill Simmons?

  Somebody in the picture. Yeah, it's the star fucker network.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  It's like if Tim Cook doesn't know who the person is, they can't do a show.

• 50:16Bill Simmons?

  Right. Like if they could put Jon Hamm with like kind of a torn suit on and like a fancy house behind him, they, they don't even need to know what the show's about.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Yes. Um, and they had hits this past year, at least a couple. Severance was a big hit for them. Like it was on the charts, which the Apple shows never are, except for Ted Lasso.

• 50:36Bill Simmons?

  I can only tell you, I look at everything selfishly from a Ringer perspective and what we can do prestige TV podcasts and the watch and can you just give us shows that we could talk about? Apple was in the mix this year for us. Like we had really from presumed innocent last year and

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, which I liked. I thought that was good.

• 50:53Bill Simmons?

  Your friends and neighbors, like they had some stuff that was like, all right.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Although you were not on board with the studio. You're not on board with their 23 Emmy nominations?

• 51:01Bill Simmons?

  No, I would, well, you didn't get one though.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  I did not.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  Please don't bring that up.

• 51:06Bill Simmons?

  By the way, it's unfair that you said I was not on board. I watched every episode of the studio. I watched every episode. I, we did an episode of the first three episodes.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  All right.

• 51:17Bill Simmons?

  I watched all of them. I actually thought the last couple of episodes were really good. I, I thought it was a really uneven show. I really respected it. I watched every minute of it and my problem with it ultimately was I didn't know who I was supposed to be rooting for, which might've been the answer. Maybe nobody.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:35Bill Simmons?

  Like Seth Rogen's character, it's like, I, I just didn't like the character and I was supposed to be rooting for him.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  They lean heavily on the fact that Seth himself is so likeable that he can do some dumb and kind of despicable things. And you're still supposed to like him. I happen to think Seth is great and I do like him even in a role like that, but I, I hear your criticism.

• 51:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I just felt like they could've tilted him more. Did you get, did you get a lot of, uh, recognition from that? What happened?

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Please, I mean.

• 52:05Bill Simmons?

  I wanna, I wanna know, did your life change?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  No, my life, are you kidding? Other than people texting me, no, my life, and although I do get recognized sometimes.

• 52:14Bill Simmons?

  At a Dodgers game, you went to Dodgers game today, were people just pointing at you? Like, hey, that's the guy from the studio.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Are you kidding me? Not at the Dodgers game, at like Sundance or at like the Polo Lounge on a Friday afternoon. Yes, everybody knows, but people know me from the town now too. And from my newsletter, so it doesn't, yes.

• 52:32Bill Simmons?

  They know you cause you work with Craig Horlbeck. They're like, hey, that's the guy who works with Craig.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  I bring Craig to movie premieres, nobody wants to talk to me, they don't want to talk to him.

• 52:39Bill Simmons?

  He's a handsome guy.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  He's much more personable to me. And he knows a lot about fantasy football, which I do not.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  And he's got very deep movie knowledge from the rewatchables. He's the only 30 year old that can quote Risky Business.

• 52:54Bill Simmons?

  I know, we're indoctrinating him in the 80s and 90s, including Species this week.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  Oh, he texted me about Species. He's like, I can't believe this movie existed.

• 53:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's his reaction a lot of the time.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, what were they thinking?

• 53:07Bill Simmons?

  Matt Bellany, pleasure to see you as always. We can read you in the puck on Puck News and we can listen to you on the town. An awesome podcast produced by Craig Orbeck.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  And the Ringer dot com.

• 53:19Bill Simmons?

  And the Ringer dot com. Good to see you. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo

• 54:03Bill Simmons?

  liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. All right, Nate Theis is here. We're recording on a Sunday. He's a second time new dad. He works for Yahoo. You can listen to his podcast and read him there. He's been on this pod a few times. First of all, how much sleep you getting? Are you, are you prepared for NFL when you don't sleep?

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I'm okay. Actually, like the old background of coaching and scouting kind of helped me prep for this of like, surviving on two to four hours and a lot of coffee. But no, we're good. We got a good rhythm. My wife is a champ. That's, that's what I'm leaving to that. She's been an absolute champ. I've had a nice break.

• 54:39Bill Simmons?

  They do, they do 95% of the work. So I got into NFL. I have the same process every year. And the last like 10, 11 days dove in, did my process, had a good time actually doing it. Some things jumped out to me and where I wanted to land to talk to you. I'm not ready to have any full scale opinions yet. But.

• 55:02Bill Simmons?

  The jump a level teams. I want to start there because that's a good way to think about the season as a whole, each conference, who's going to move up from one level to another? I don't want, I don't want to go negative. We'll go positive because it's, it's sunny out here in Southern California. It's, it's a good times, you know, not a lot of stress. But there's three different types of teams that jump a level. We have the playoff team to legit contender, the blah team to playoff team, and the out of nowhere team, which is just, they're just staples now. Now we don't bat an eyelash when somebody like the Broncos or the commanders or the Chargers, when they just jump five, six wins. This is just what happens. Which group is the hardest group for you to figure out out of those three groups?

• 55:43Speaker 02

  I actually would say the playoff team to legit contender, because I think that's the hardest crack, you know, hardest tier to break into, you know, kind of a legit final four team, you know, that it can make that any single year, can withstand some injuries, has a dude at quarterback, or at least an offense that can roll that way, has a run game, has a defense and like not a lot of teams have, can check all those boxes. Uh, you know, we saw what the Eagles did. Um, the Chiefs are kind of their own thing. They're the mid nineties Houston Rockets. They're kind of just always, they're, they're always their own thing. So, but like every other team, all the mortal teams, like this is what you need to have. And it's just really hard to check all those boxes of truly having a run game, truly having an explosive passing game and vice versa on defense, being able

• 56:28Speaker 02

  to stop those things on defense. So that's the hardest one to break into because it's just, it's just hard. It's just really hard to build that legit team.

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. You're talking this little crack between the two tiers. So last year, the Lions were the team that made the jump and that was the team I went all in on last year. Picked them to win the Super Bowl. That did not happen. But, you know, they laid the groundwork the previous year. They had a really good playoff loss. If you can have a good playoff loss, good foundation. They kept their two coordinators and it just felt like everything was lined up and you could really see it. I had a little more trouble coming up with the team this year, but I had four candidates and I'm going to take the next few weeks to figure it out. But the four candidates I sent you, and I'll give you the conference odds on Fanduel for each of these, but the Rams were at plus 850, had a really nice, as we look back, a really nice loss to the Eagles, right?

• 57:18Bill Simmons?

  Kind of had the Eagles, even at the tail end, they're in the 15th round, just throwing haymakers with the rocking music.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Two Jalen Carter plays away, two Jalen Carter plays away, that's what it was. But yeah, they were very close to getting them.

• 57:30Bill Simmons?

  So there's one.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 57:32Bill Simmons?

  Tampa, 13 to 1 with some wide receiver injuries last year and, uh, and just were just frisky the whole time and, and they're bringing all 11 starters back on offense. Werf is going to be out for a couple of weeks, but, uh, so that's team number two.

• 57:49Bill Simmons?

  The Texans, I just have to put in at 12 to 1 and win the conference just because of how good the defense was in the playoffs specifically. And you think like they kind of had the year from hell in a bunch of different ways, um, with some receiver injuries and, you know, they did trade tons a lot. I'm not crazy about their offensive line, but that's another one. Then

• 58:08Bill Simmons?

  the fourth one is, is the one that surprised me that I included in here is the Broncos at 13 to 1. Made the playoffs, felt like they overachieved just to make the playoffs, had all the makings of, oh, we'll get to this year and they'll take the dip back.

• 58:27Bill Simmons?

  There's some reasons why that might not happen. The one team I don't have in here is Washington because I think they were officially a contender. They made the title game. You can't, you can't put them in there. All right. So Rams, Bucks, Broncos, Texans. Which one did you get the most excited about?

• 58:41Speaker 02

  Rams and it's just because they have, you know, the why maybe you get excited about the Texans, the Rams kind of a version of this, where they have the great equalizer in a playoff game and that's a pass rush. And they have a dude at quarterback and they have, you know, a Larry Jackson, their left tackle is going to be out with blood clots. And I know you know about players on your team having blood clots and what they can do to a season. So like, but that's, that's this one wrinkle and kind of like the theory of the Rams this year, but Devante Adams still has plenty left in the tank. Like he is still a difference maker. But the thing is, I think Pukunakua is not getting kind of the credit of what he actually is. I think some people think he's a beneficiary of the offense.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Like no kidding. That's every, every top receiver is a beneficiary of the offense. But he's a legit top five receiver in this game. He's an actual elite guy. Now, Devante Adams is like a 2A, you know, in this offense and you know, Cooper Cup is no longer there. Cooper Cup has really fallen off and is really is not the difference maker. He's become a kind of very isolated type of player and how they have to use them. But they drafted Terrence Ferguson and that's a, he's a tight end from Oregon, really athletic. They're going to use more tight ends. This is where I'm envisioning this offense. I think it's going to be just a better version of what we've seen the last couple of years. When this offense has been healthy, I know that's an if, it's a big if. They have been supernova, like not, not just like, oh, a top offense, like one of the better offenses we've seen in the last 20 years level of good.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  And we saw it last year. Remember the Vikings game? I think it was a Thursday night game where they found, Pukunakua comes back, they just go crazy. That's this, what this team could be. So it's a fine line. That's why the odds are what they are. But man, they have a pass rush. The defense is more funky than outright good, but the pass rush is good. And so that's why I think they have a really, you know, they actually have a snowball's chance in hell to win this, this, not just division with us. Really, really tough division, the NFC West, but the conference as well. So pass rush, passing game or run game. That's a really good team.

• 1:00:38Bill Simmons?

  Is it a tough division? That's one of the things I'm staring at with the research. I keep hearing how tough the NFC West is and I'm staring at it going.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  It's really frisked. It's a lot of good units. Like there's a lot of good defenses. There's a lot of good run games. Like it's a lot to prepare for. I don't think any of them are elite, but there's, it's a lot of good. Like I think any four of those teams are playoff teams because I'm going to get to another one in a little bit, but maybe that's why I'm angling this way.

• 1:01:04Bill Simmons?

  Okay, I got you.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Bill Simmons?

  So, Puka.

• 1:01:09Bill Simmons?

  I think he's for for your for the smart guy NFL people. He's he's like just the stunning him on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, the blocking, all the kind of football player stuff he does. He's whatever that weird team is. It's like the all NBA for the NFL super nerd team. He's just he's in there. He's like catnip. Adams I'm really intrigued by with the just being in a good situation again. I just I thought Rogers was terrible last year. I thought their offense was terrible. The coaching was terrible. Then you go back to Vegas where he was in that Netflix show famously just, you know, almost seeming like he didn't want to get killed. He hasn't been in a good situation really since probably the second to last Green Bay situation.

• 1:01:54Bill Simmons?

  And then now he's a number two. And if that if they hit with that tight end, everybody's already trying to pump him up as a fantasy asset. But I that was the team that jumped out to me too in the NFC. I do think there's a Bucks case. And I want to I want to study more about how long Wirth's is going to be out. But I don't that that's just a team that has an identity. I know what they are and they have one of the best four lines in the league offense. So we know they can block. We know they're going to be able to move the ball. We know they're going to be able to score. I like the division they're in. Schedule is going to be a little harder this year, but that's I think it's probably one of those two teams, right? Is there any other team? I guess I guess no other team even really qualifies.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, the I mean, the this is kind of cheating. It feels like because of the record last year is if J J McCarthy is just okay or better, the Vikings did a lot of nice things this offseason to kind of maybe shore up their volatility. And I just the offensive line and the defensive line, you know, getting Hargrave, getting Hargrave and Jonathan Allen, and they're just some real beef. So it's just they don't have to be as funky, you know, on the defense. They actually have some guys that can just win as well. And they have some other players that are really good. And just the offense too. I think this offensive line. They got, Wayne got Mason from San Fran. No, Aaron Jones is still there, but now they have a one-two punch and because they have Justin Jefferson, they get a lot of like unique looks. Devante Adams got these looks too, actually, which is why I think this Rams pairing is gonna

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  be awesome. But they get so many soft boxes that they can just pound away at them, get five, six yards a pop. Like it just like, like it's nothing. And so now they finally have built a line and they got Jordan Mason to be the hammer with Aaron Jones. And now they got a guy that can just really pound away four, five, six yards. So the Vikings, I'm just keeping my eye on because I really, it's just McCarthy has to just be okay. Eighteenth quarterback or better in this, in this team can, you know, there's an angle here. There's a line here that, that they can really make it.

• 1:03:48Bill Simmons?

  I, I hate them from a future standpoint because there's no way to be right or wrong. Who the fuck knows with McCarthy? He's coming off a major knee injury. He's never started an NFL game before and everything hinges on whether he's good or not. And it could go any direction. And any, anyone who says like, I know how this is going to play out, like, there's no way to know.

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  It's 14 to one for a reason. I will say that. So to win the AFC Championship. Yeah, it's 14 to one for a reason.

• 1:04:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, and they won 14 games last year before everything fell apart. In the span of eight days, we went from thinking, could this team actually win the Super Bowl to Austin, Sam Darnold's on his way to Seattle. Yeah. Yeah. So that team broke my brain. And then we go to the, the, the other side with the Broncos and the Texans. I don't, I personally don't think the Texans O-line.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:04:41Bill Simmons?

  If you're in the bottom five or six with, with your O-line and there's really, you can rank them any way you want, but I don't see how, I don't see a scenario where they're not in the bottom, bottom crew. And that part worries me. And the bigger thing, and I'm sure we'll be talking about this over the next six weeks is what do we have with CJ Stroud? Because it feels like we overreacted a year, one, I don't want to also overreact to. Year two, but he, you know, he took a major step back last year for most of the year and I don't know what I'm getting from him.

• 1:05:10Speaker 02

  No, I was Stroud. No, I get it. He started actually developing a couple of bad habits because of this old line. But I still really trust him because the new OC, the new coordinator is going to give him a little bit more say in the offense. Um, the old offensive system, the with Slowik, Bobby Slowik, what came from is Shanahan offense, which doesn't really let the quarterbacks kind of drive the wheel. You know, they, they really kind of, you know, puts a lot of bumpers on the offense. They put a lot on the center and the offensive system to work. Stroud is very smart, like and really cerebral. So I'm, I'm curious how this is going to look. But what you saying is about the offensive line is why I'm worried too, is just because it's different, doesn't mean it's better. Um, I know they had some like bad vibes, but last year, the guys they added, so they added Kenny,

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  uh, oh no, they got rid of Kenyon Green, uh, but then they got Ed Ingram and Lincoln Tomlinson. So Kenyon Green allowed the third highest pressure rate among guards last year, among starting guards. Ed Ingram was first and Lincoln Tomlinson was fourth. So, you know, yeah, it's different, but it's, you know, is it really going to be any better? Because that's what you added there. They, it's going to be a little bit better because of the vibes. But again, I don't think the run game is going to be trustworthy, but I am, I do like Stroud a lot. Their division, that division is so wonky. The AFC South, and again, they have the, I think the defense is going to be really, really good, uh, because of the pass rush. They have decent linebackers and I think their DB room is really good. They have Derrick Stingley, uh, some other guys too. Yeah, the secondary is going to be really good. So if they're, again, if healthy, but I, I think the offensive line is still going to be weakness,

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  even if they have a lot of different names and faces out there.

• 1:06:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The case for them is the defense they threw in the playoff game, you know, and, and the pass rush and like there's a

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Bill Simmons?

  Pass rush, secondary. All right. I can see something there and they, you know, they fixed the receiver room, but.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  But then it's, you just gotta think the conference they're in. The NFC is so much easier to find value. I think betting wise, as we're talking about that, because it's way more wide open. The AFC is like, you got, you know, who you got, you got the demons at the end, you know, you got Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, uh, Patrick Mahomes, uh, shoot, even the middle tier teams, Justin Herbert, all these guys, uh, Joe Burrow. So it's like that's the AFC is just so much tougher at the top. They already have the contender guys. Uh, you know, that's more the middle ground. That's interesting. Well, the NFC, it's like, whoa, you, I think it can go any which way.

• 1:07:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I did my, I did my first stab at my player rankings because it really helped me last year where it did do all that. And the AFC South was just the worst of all the divisions from, from just a standpoint of talent. And I was surprised. I didn't think they would be coming in last, but offensive lines, Houston, Cincinnati, the Giants, Seattle, Jacksonville, and then maybe New England. Now, though, I think of Will Campbell's good. The New England's line might actually be okay. So that he's kind of the swing, but that, those are probably the five worst plus New England if, if Campbell doesn't make it. So the, the other team there in the AFC, the Broncos. I was prepared to write them off and they weren't going to have

• 1:08:09Bill Simmons?

  enough firepower, harder schedule this year. AFC West is going to be really hard. I don't know. The Broncos might be good. That like I find myself leaning toward them as maybe that's a playoff team that can actually make a leap up and be like, whoa, the Bron, like they, they kind of subtly fixed some of the issues they had with, with the weapons standpoint. They have to hit on both their rookies, but they have a top four line. Their defense is good. They spent some money on the defense and, and they have one of the best five coaches in the league. So I think the case for them would be the Chiefs fall backwards. The Chargers fall back a little bit because their schedule is going to be harder. And then Vegas is Vegas and maybe they can climb up. There's no chance the Broncos can win that division, right?

• 1:08:54Bill Simmons?

  For you? You just have the Chiefs penciled in forever?

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  I put it this way. I think the Broncos are live to win it, but I do think the Chiefs are better this year in the weirdest way. Like, so I do think it's still the Chiefs division.

• 1:09:07Bill Simmons?

  Make the case for the Chiefs being better. Let me hear it.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  I actually, I'm high on the offensive line. They added both guys. So yeah, there's, I think there's going to be some up and downness, but this is a quarterback used to that up and downness. I also just think some of the defensive guys that they had, I think that's going to make more sense if they're healthy on the back end. I keep saying if they're healthy, but this is true in the NFL. This is how you have to look at these things. But I do think that they still have the dude at quarterback and I think Rashi Rice come back and now. I mean, suspension pending, but I do think that he is a lot better than people are giving him credit for and what's going to add to the explosiveness of the offense. I think maybe Travis Kelsey kind of knows his role now, too. Kelsey was interesting last year because he's definitely dropped off as a receiver, but it was probably his best blocking year ever because he was kind

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  of, yeah, he like, he's never been a into blocking. He knows how he gets paid and why, you know, why he's very famous. But last year, he kind of knew his role. Like, it was kind of interesting being like Robin Lopez almost. But he's just scrapping, setting screens, you know, getting the offensive boards. But no, that it's I, I have more faith in the Chiefs this year than I did last year in the weirdest way. And maybe it's just because I'm being lazy mentally. But I do think the Broncos are a better team. I think this defense could be the best defense in the NFL. And I think the Broncos added some juice with the skill players that I really liked. Like, I've really come around on Pat Bryant, their third round pick. It was a little high, but I do like the pick. And then RJ Harvey is going to add just a little bit of juice in the

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  in the running back room. That's what the running backs were just bad last year. And the old line is a top 5-0 line. That's, that's how you win a playoff game. Like, I could see the Broncos being a playoff team, easy. Like, but I don't know if I still think it's the Chiefs to to lose.

• 1:10:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know what's funny about what you said with the Chiefs? By the way, the Chiefs are minus 110 on Fanduel for the division. Chargers plus 280. The Broncos are plus 330, which I think is too high. I think that should be a little closer. But the funny thing with the Chiefs, I agree with what you said. I also feel like the case for them, at least from a talent standpoint, is they should probably be better because it's weird. Last year was the year from hell for them in some ways, right? But then they were 11-0 in one score games. So it's like, year from hell, but then also this crazy luck over and over again for the first three fourths of the season. You feel like even if the one score luck balances out, the health luck is going to flip it the other way.

• 1:11:32Bill Simmons?

  That division's gonna be a bitch, though. Like Vegas was a walkover last year and Vegas is not gonna be a walkover. They're gonna actually be hard to play.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, Vegas can be so funky. They're the ultimate knuckleball team. Like it just, Geno Smith is a legit quarterback. And then they have Chip Kelly, who's gonna just, I'm very excited for Chip Kelly back in the NFL. And as an OC, not as an NFL, so he can just sit in his lab and do what he wants to do. I think it's gonna be one of those. And their defense is interesting, too. You know, it's not, they lack a little bit of firepower along their lines, but they still have dudes. You know, they, Max Crosby is a dude. Christian Wilkins, if he's healthy, is a dude. And of course, they got Gent, their running back. So, and Brock Bowers on offense. So there's, I look at them as like a seven win team. That's gonna just be really annoying because of what they do on offense and defense. I definitely like a, what do you, what do you call it?

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  A league pass team. There, that's what, that's what the Raiders are kind of for me.

• 1:12:27Bill Simmons?

  They're a league pass team and they're also a, do not throw them the team they're playing in a three-team tease.

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:34Bill Simmons?

  Or some sort of big parlay. Cause yeah, the Raiders are plus nine and a half and somehow just beating somebody out, right? There, stay away from me. I think out of those four teams, Rams, Bucks, Broncos, Texans. I think now it's July 20th, it could change.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:50Bill Simmons?

  We have, we still have, the training camps are gonna start. There's gonna be all the stuff we learned from all the media pieces and all the coverage and the day-to-day stuff. And like, there's so many variables, like Ted McMillan might come into Carolina and just be, people are just gonna be like, I'm blown away. Every day this guy does some, like it could be one of those situations like, all right, now I have to revise this Carolina thing. If this guy's gonna be Mike Evans right away, I don't know if that's gonna happen. But we have, or Hampton on the Chargers. So like the season, the preseason might start and everybody might be like. This guy's incredible, or the guy you mentioned on the Broncos, Harvey.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:26Bill Simmons?

  What if he's just awesome? You know, and we went from like, as you said, the bottom five running back crew in the, uh, in the NFL to all of a sudden, they have this dude on pace for 1400 yards. So we don't know yet, but these are just kind of the, the leans. I think, I think those are fair.

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  And, and this year too, just this, this class, there's a lot of what players, you know, consider were more good than elite, you know, a lot more green chip guys and blue chip guys.

• 1:13:51Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  And that's the thing is when you get a lot of that, there's a lot of variance though. There's a lot of guys that could rise a lot higher, like the team was right in taking this guy. So that's where I think there's just a lot more surprises when you get that like, okay, this is, you know, it's kind of just an interesting class and especially the positions. You know, there's a lot of running backs that can make an impact. Caleb Johnson with the Steelers going to, it was just the whole time it was, he has to go to his own team. He has to go to his own team. He has, and then he goes to the Steelers who only run zone. And it was like, okay, well this could work. Like even, even whoever's playing at quarterback, but it's like there, there's at least a path there to, okay, this guy actually in this offensive system, cause they would, they have an interesting offensive line too, that they can sneak up on teams. They can beat some of these bad teams that just can't stop

• 1:14:34Speaker 02

  the run. And I know that sounds just so simplistic, but that's what the, that's what football is. It's like, if a team can run five yards at a time, they're not going to recall anything else. They don't need their new quarterback to do anything.

• 1:14:45Bill Simmons?

  Do you feel like there's any meat left on the Bo Nix bone? Or did what we see last year is basically what it is?

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  Everything's going to come down to what you can do on third down. Uh, but this is kind of how I pictured him. Uh, like a lot of, he has some creativity to him. He's a great athlete and he's got an absolute rocket of an arm. It's sometimes he technically will be accurate because he throws underneath a lot. And Sean Payton did a hell of a job to kind of figure out the offense with him. But that's, that's the thing is he built it for his rookie quarterback. Can he make the leap? Usually we'll see a lot. I, it all depends on third down. Um, I don't think there's a lot more because he's older and this is just how we played in college too. But you know, a cheetah doesn't change its spots kind of thing. Like this is the type of player he'll be, but it's good enough to start. It's good enough to win a playoff game, I think, because of just how they built

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  this offense. So, but I don't think there's as much meat as maybe the other guys of his class. And I think that was kind of the expectation when they drafted them too.

• 1:15:43Bill Simmons?

  We're taking a break and then we got to race through the rest of these because I really want to clear the floor for you for Timber Wolf Summer League convo, but we're taking one break. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Minneh Sharon and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits.

• 1:16:24Bill Simmons?

  Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by NBA 2K27. We just had one of the craziest off-seasons we've had in the NBA, which is perfect for 2K because every 2K season can be one of the craziest off-seasons. The whole league shifted in real life, it could shift to an NBA 2K27. The best place to compete with these new look rosters and also try to figure out who's on what roster. You can see how new teams and new dynamic duos match up.

• 1:17:05Bill Simmons?

  You can play Philly, feel what it's like to have all of their new guys with the old guys and you can also take a struggling franchise to the NBA Finals if you want, because it'll never happen in real life for a couple of the struggling franchises. You know who I'm talking about. Anyway, NBA 2K lets you experience every transaction and storyline right from your home. Pick up your copy of NBA 2K27 right now. All right, next category is the blah team to the playoff team. I would describe blah, you're like seven and 10, you're eight and nine.

• 1:17:42Bill Simmons?

  Couple of things happened, nothing, nothing memorable. Maybe you had a bad injury or the Bengals case, you had just had crazy, bad luck in close games. In Miami's case, maybe your quarterback seemed like he should have to retire from football and then he didn't. In Atlanta's case, maybe you spent a ton of money on a guy who turned out he was a corpse and then you had to bring in the next guy. In the Niners case, maybe every single thing that could have possibly gone wrong, went wrong. So our nominees, so last year was the 24 Vikings, who they were fine. Nobody really had any high expectations for them. Then boom, they're 14 and three. The year before was the 23 Lions and

• 1:18:24Bill Simmons?

  the Browns made big jumps. So our nominees this year, from this weird range, the Bengals nine and eight last year, Colts eight and nine, Miami six and 11. That's AFC. So let's do AFC first. Bengals Colts Miami. Who intrigues you?

• 1:18:40Speaker 02

  Bengals, they're just because the offense. But that's of that group, that's not like, I'm not like really excited. I'm not as, I think this is what the Bengals are. They're in this range. Like they are a nine win team. Maybe you can get to 10, but because just I, there's so much just, I mean, they haven't signed their first round picks still. They're just the defense. I still don't trust. I respect that.

• 1:19:07Bill Simmons?

  Why would you? The defense is terrible. Why would you trust it?

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  And, and look at the division they're in and the conference they're in. Again, it's just that it's, it's hell in the AFC. If you don't have at least a viable side, at least a top half side on both sides, you know, offense and defense. So it's based on how many points they can score, you know, and I do respect the offensive vision. I've actually really have liked Zach Taylor's slash Joe Burrow. I'm sure he has a lot of input, like the changes they make year to year. Like I really do think everything the defenses throw at them, they always find new little wrinkles, even if it's a, you know, maybe not the most varied offense, like the closest comparison is the Colts and the Aths with Peyton Manning, like where it was just like they ran their seven plays, you gotta stop them. And that's kind of the level they're at right now. But it's a lot like those Colts teams

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  of the Aths. What was their defense like? You know, it was just based there, how good they are is based on how good their defense was. But I don't, it's just, that's such a tough division and conference that it's hard to say that they can be anything more. It's where other teams have to drop around them, if that makes sense.

• 1:20:10Bill Simmons?

  I don't get the Bengals case.

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:13Bill Simmons?

  It's July 20th. I might change my mind, but I just look at they're they're the they're the guy in fantasy who spends $170 on three guys and then tries to fill out the rest of the roster with the $1 guys.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  That's exactly what they are.

• 1:20:29Bill Simmons?

  And after after the draft, he's like, I have Chase and Higgins and Burrow. And you're like, cool. You're no running backs.

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  It's a lot like the Saints with Breeze for a while. And remember them in the 2010s? He's thrown 5,000 yards, but they're winning six games. You know that it's a lot like that. They're just a weirdly shaped team because they didn't hit on defense like they needed to.

• 1:20:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, the combo of overpaying. Well, they didn't overpay. They properly paid their three guys, but they paid them like.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  Discount to Higginson.

• 1:20:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they paid Chase and Burrow like top five guys. They got a slight discount on Higgins, but he's still making a lot of money, but they're also a cheap franchise. And so like when like the Chiefs today, before we started recording, they signed Carl Aftis for like a $90 million extension. And it's like, and I've made this joke over and over again. I'm going to keep making it. I don't understand the NFL salary cap at all. It doesn't seem like this isn't like the second apron where your Timberwolves have to be like, can't afford Alexander Walker, who pushed us over the second apron. There is no any apron in the NFL. And he's just like, yeah, Carl Aftis. We'll just keep pushing the money that way. The Bengals don't do that at all.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  Teams are starting to complain about that, though.

• 1:21:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  There's that's not what the Eagles are doing. They're like, okay, okay, okay. You guys won your title. Let's let's let's stop this. But now, well, we'll see how the.

• 1:21:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, the CBA isn't changing anytime soon. Yeah. But I look at the Bengals and I'm like, if you're gonna, but if you're gonna spend big money on three guys, you can't also then be cheap.

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  The other teams in that group is just hard. Like the Dolphins are like, what are the Dolphins? They are such a they have an awful DB room. Awesome front seven. I'll say that on defense, but then on offense, it's like, can you I can't trust the offensive line, even if I do like pieces. They kind of just feel like they're in an identity shift. They keep talking about how tough and physical they're going to be. But it was like, oh, you guys want are winning with a lot of speed, though. So like, and then the Colts, it's. I know what Daniel Jones is, even if I really like what the wrong game is going to be. And I was, I still have a garden on Anthony Richardson, Richardson Island and, and actually, I, and actually maybe like a picket fence on Riley Leonard Island, like, so.

• 1:22:44Bill Simmons?

  You own property on Anthony Richardson Island?

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  I do, I do, like a garden.

• 1:22:48Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  I just thought there was a chance he could be like Culpeper, like, you know, you gotta remember what I, what I saw when I grew up with. So I still have a garden.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  I used to have a house, but I sold it.

• 1:22:59Bill Simmons?

  Here's the difference though. Culpeper was this big ass dude who was actually pretty durable, at least for the first part of his career.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:08Bill Simmons?

  Then it, then it started.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  Knee exploded.

• 1:23:10Bill Simmons?

  Well, that is knee exploded. Yeah.

• 1:23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:12Bill Simmons?

  But I mean, he would take big hits and get up. Richardson seems like he gets.

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  Really accurate.

• 1:23:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, that helps too. But Richardson seems like it takes big hits and stays down.

• 1:23:21Speaker 02

  There's a, there, yes. And that's what led to the turmoil last year where, where his teammates were openly complaining about him. He couldn't do that. That was, that's where I kind of sold, but then he played some games where he kind of like against the Jazz who were kind of had the white flag. But I've said it's a garden. You know, now you're making me say it's just a flower, just, just one plant.

• 1:23:40Bill Simmons?

  I respect it.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  Thank you. I appreciate it.

• 1:23:43Bill Simmons?

  I think Miami has a chance to be absolutely terrible. And I already, it's one of the only future bets I've already made was to bet the adjusted unders on them. I don't see it at all.

• 1:23:52Speaker 02

  What is it at?

• 1:23:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think it moved, but I, I did one of the bets I did when I was in Indiana was I did, um, I think I did under seven wins for them or under six wins or something like whatever. I think it's moved a little bit. I also think McDaniel is in first coach fired territory.

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  It feels weird right now. It's.

• 1:24:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it feels like, let's see how this goes. I think their division. You know, the paths are going to be better and the Jets might actually be like a whiff frisky. And then you have Buffalo in there. So I don't know.

• 1:24:25Speaker 02

  Jets are gonna be a bad team beater. That's, that's why I call them like they're they, cause they have a run game and they have a defense that's gonna be good too. So it's like, and just a mentality. So like, they're gonna be like a bad, like, you better bring it. Like, I can see them. I can see what they're gonna be that classic team that wins three at the end of the season.

• 1:24:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  And everyone's like, oh, Aaron Glenn's got him coming around as they finish six and 11. You know, but he's one of the last three, you know, but a lot of close games, but I, the Jets, the Jets run game, that aligns pretty, pretty badass. And, and they, and they got a little run game with Justin Fields and stuff. So yeah, watch the Jets run game this year.

• 1:24:59Bill Simmons?

  I don't see them being a, a high points offense, but I see a lot of like 16 to 13, 19 to 12.

• 1:25:06Speaker 02

  Greg Maddux starts.

• 1:25:07Bill Simmons?

  10 to 9. Yeah, yeah. Love that. I don't really like any of those choices either for the AFC. And by the way, that's, that's, it's perfect to be like, you know what? I don't like Bengals Colts or Miami.

• 1:25:21Bill Simmons?

  In the other division or the other conference Falcons, Dallas and the Niners Falcons were eight and nine Dallas, seven and 10, nine or six and 11. Penix to me is a follow up to that J J McCarthy point I made earlier. I just don't know. Like, what if he's just not good? We have no idea. There were, there were flashes, right? Did you like what you saw?

• 1:25:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's kind of like Cutler to me, Jay Cutler, where it's the highs are high and he has a huge arm. But sometimes it's the varsity blue scene where the Cowboys getting knocked out the horse. You know, like that it's just once in a while, you don't know where it's going.

• 1:25:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  And that's the thing. So I think he's volatile, but I think the run game's gonna be good. And I think that he, he has enough highs that it's gonna like, yeah, there's gonna be some games where he comes alive. But I think that defense is just gonna be bad. I don't think they'll be able to stop the run. So, and they play in a division with the Bucks, the Panthers and the Saints who all like drafted first round linemen and invested in a run game. So, yeah, I'm not, I'm staying away from the Falcons, even if Penix is okay.

• 1:26:21Bill Simmons?

  Niners, everybody's on.

• 1:26:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's a 10 and a half.

• 1:26:25Bill Simmons?

  I think that 10 and a half is too high. It's schedule related and it's like injury luck related and I get it, but I just think they lost a lot of dudes. And, you know, from a receiver standpoint, everyone's like, well, then IU could be back. And it's like, Willie, when's he coming back? He, he blew out his knee in October. Like we're, we're just throwing him back in, just running up and down the field for three hours. I'm not buying that yet.

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  And it's just a tough, another, you don't think so, but it's a tough division. They have the easiest schedule in the NFL. That's, that's, and they, I do think they're better because on defense. I, I think that they went about this off season, like what, how they should have. Not only just getting Robert Sala back in the building, but they're, they, they became really bad against the run. They leaned into the bit a little too much. They really wanted to be like, we're feisty. We get upfield on the front, like, ah, ears pinned back. But, you know, they went and signed Javon Hargrave, who I complimented for the Vikings, but for the 49ers, he just actually wasn't what they needed. Because he was just too risk reward. And they already have that with Nick Bosa, who's their dude.

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  But it's just kind of like, okay, all right, if we don't get them right away and get this TFL, that's a six yard gain. And Fred Warner has to clean it up. And I think now, but I, having said all that, like, so this, the stats, and I know EPA is kind of, can be a little volatile. If you don't have a huge data set, but this is a nice season long. So since 2019, the 49ers against the run, EPA per rush, ninth, 2019, ninth in 2020, first in 2021, second in 2022, 2023, 28th, 2024, 28th. They, and how they play defense is very, they play quarters. So it's very like, I wouldn't say soft, but it's more like, hey, we rally to tackle. Like we have really good linebacker in Fred Warner. We have feisty safeties.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  And I think what they did was, okay, first round pick, Michael Williams, who is going to enter the league as maybe he gets the pass. He's going to be more of a developmental guy, but he's like awesome against the run. And so I, I think they ate, you know, ate their vegetables a little bit this off season. So I kind of like, I kind of liked that on defense to really help them out because that was more of a blemish than I think people realized last year. And I think of course you have Kyle Shanahan, which, so if guys are healthy, like you said with the receivers, like it's easy. I think it's an easy nine wins, 11 wins, like the win total is, that's a little, that's a little sketchy to me. You know, I think this is a nine, 10 win team, but definitely a proved team.

• 1:28:49Bill Simmons?

  Williams 10 to one on Fanduel for Defensive Rookie of the Year.

• 1:28:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:28:53Bill Simmons?

  That one jumped out at me because he only had Abdul Carter and Jalen Walker ahead of him.

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Carter has, they have too many dudes on the Giants defense. You know, I mean, so his stats might not be crazy, like, you know, he might be good, but yeah. Now, I'm high on Michael Williams, even if, you know, he might not be a high sack guy this year, but man, this guy's, I think, gonna be a two-way against the run and the pass. Could be a really good player down the road.

• 1:29:18Bill Simmons?

  So I gotta look at the Niners more. I want to find out more about IU because I don't, I think they're gonna have a lot of trouble throwing the ball. The McCaffrey's stuff has already started. He's in the best shape of his life and so we get to do that. Yeah, he's always, every, the dude works out for 12 months a year. Every year it's like, oh, this is the year he's came in and.

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  He's around Germany again, the blood spin, you know, he's getting all that.

• 1:29:41Bill Simmons?

  I don't trust it. Is it cool if I don't trust it? I just don't assume he's gonna play for four straight months anymore. Yeah.

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's what's tough. I trust the run game, if that makes sense, but CMC makes the whole offense like supernova. So it's that if you trust that, but I do think they're obviously gonna be better just because they have to be. They were so, faced so much bad luck last year.

• 1:30:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, Dallas.

• 1:30:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, Dallas. Yeah.

• 1:30:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Falcons, I just think we put to the side. Who knows? Dallas, there's a pretty interesting case for Dallas, which would be fun for me because it really determines Cousin Sal's mood on Sunday nights. But, you know, they're getting some guys back, some injuries, they had a good draft, Dak's back, coaching change, there's some signs. Coaching change is always good if it's, I know people weren't that fired up about the Brian Schonhammer thing, but, you know, when teams, people weren't fired up about Dan Quinn, who the F knows? Is there a Cowboys case that offer you? We know they have the quarterback, they're gonna be able to block, they have, they'll have a pass rush, their D-line, that whole area is among the best in the league. Maybe?

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  No, definitely maybe. I think they are definitely gonna be a.

• 1:30:52Speaker 02

  Winning team, you know, now this NFC is going to be wide open. I think not only the offensive line, they drafted another guy in the first round, Tower Booker, but I saw they have some real beef, but then they also, their offensive coordinator is Clayton Adams and they signed him from the Cardinals. He was the offensive line coach with the Cardinals. And I really like this because this is kind of what the Lions kind of, I'm not gonna say what the Lions did outright, but it's like having a, a full faith OC who's actually the line guy. This is actually what the Packers did, maybe a bear. So Sean Heim is the play caller, but the OC is technically like the run game coordinator. So I think that was actually just, if you just read between the lines, this is a commitment to what they're gonna do. And this is where Dak can really be Dak, is get a control of the game before, he's

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  one of the best before the snap, can kind of controlling everything. So you get this strong run game that, hey, you're gonna play us like this because now they have George Pickens. And I, Pickens, I didn't like for everybody, but I like George Pickens for the Cowboys because he is a great stylistic fit. Oh yeah. I, I don't think he, I think he's a two, like, I don't think he's a true number one guy, but guess who is a number one guy? C.D. Lamb. C.D. is a slot, he's a, what I call a power slot. He's, he's best from the slot or best as a Z who is off the ball and can move around. That's a flanker. George Pickens is a true X. He is on the ball. Running the straight line. Straight line, goes and stop routes. Dak Prescott, for better or for worse, loves

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  throwing stop routes, which is a 10 yards or 12 yards and turnaround stop. That's literally what it sounds like. It's kind of an archaic route now because how defenses play, but he likes them. If you're accurate and you have a dude that can win, Pickens is amazing at them. It was, so I actually think that was great. And this frees up C.D. Lamb to move all over the formation. So he, he makes sense more to the Cowboys than I thought maybe to other teams. So I, I really like that fit for a few reasons. On defense, they have the dude, Micah Parsons. I, I really liked a sneaky signing they had, Jack Samborn, who's with the Bears and You know, they they got face injury at linebacker and that's maybe they're still a little iffy against how the run. I think they'll be okay, but they're gonna be great against the pass because their pass rush. But Sam Borne, I think, will help shore it up until

• 1:33:02Speaker 02

  Obershan comes back like that. I thought that was a sneaky good signing for them that he can end up being a decent linebacker starter, just an okay starter for him. But that's what they need desperately need that right now.

• 1:33:12Bill Simmons?

  Well, and they threw away their they threw away their running back position again, which I don't totally understand.

• 1:33:17Speaker 02

  I yeah, I yeah, I didn't like that. I do like the run. It's one of those I like. It's maybe like how the Broncos were, but I really like the run ball, the blocking and the run game, but maybe the running backs are gonna be frustrating. Guess who's who they have? Javante Williams, who was with the Broncos last year.

• 1:33:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, I don't love their, you know, that when we do these FPI, whatever the hell the the schedule thing.

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:39Bill Simmons?

  I don't totally love it because I think teams change so much from year to year. I just look at their first eight weeks. Like, they start out there at Philly in the first game of the year. Like, that sucks. That's like almost a guaranteed 0-1. They have Giants at home, at Chicago, week three. Like, what if Chicago is pretty good? Home Packers, week four, at Jets, at Panthers, and then they're at Broncos, week eight. So it's like, you look at that and you go, can you get to four and four? Can you be four and four coming out of that? Could you get to five and three? Or is it probably looking like a three and five? So it's gonna be somewhere in there and that's gonna determine how they go.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, absolutely. That oh, man, that is a tough slate.

• 1:34:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't like it. It's one of those where you look at it and go, ah.

• 1:34:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:23Bill Simmons?

  I don't really like any of these games.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  And even matchup wise, it's not exactly ideal. It's like you. Those are teams I can.

• 1:34:29Bill Simmons?

  Well, plus you said Obershan. When when does he come back?

• 1:34:32Speaker 02

  Like, it's I have no idea.

• 1:34:33Bill Simmons?

  He might be like second half of the season.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Bill Simmons?

  All right, let's do a we'll make this quick. The the out of nowhere teams, which have become more and more of a lock. This we had the Broncos, Chargers, and Washington. This is one of the reasons I did so well last year is I nailed these last year, which makes me almost I'm almost coming to grips. So I'm gonna get killed this year because I did too well last year. But I sent you all the playoff odds, all the teams. Give me, give me like three that jump out to you as like a possible out of nowhere leap.

• 1:35:06Speaker 02

  Again, I leaned towards the NFC and there was a nice stat I got from NFL Research this week. It was, I think it's we're at 35 straight years. So since 1990, that four teams that didn't make the playoffs made the playoffs the next year. We're at 35 straight years. So.

• 1:35:24Bill Simmons?

  I always thought of, I always tried to do three in each conference. Last year, there were only four total that flipped. Usually it's six.

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:35:30Bill Simmons?

  And you usually try, have to just try to figure out the six.

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  The math. Yeah.

• 1:35:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  So I just keep looking at the NFC because I just think it's so up and down based on the quarterbacks. You've already talked about some of the young guys and just, it's like, you know, the Packers could be a good team, but like I look at the Cardinals as the first team that comes to mind, like for this exercise because not only just because I like their offense, but I really, really, really intrigued by their defense. They face the fifth easiest schedule. Again, we know how that can change and everything. I think the offense, I know what it is. I don't think it can maybe get to that top five, but I think this could be a top 12, top 10 unit with a good run game. Explosive offense. The big thing for me is I don't know who can take the top off. So it might maybe feel a little tight. They got to expand Marvin Harrison Jr.'s role. So, but I, I, I trust the offense in the weirdest way.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  And I try, even if Kyler Murray can be up and down, he was, he was better last year. That was one of his most, that was about like his most consistent season ever. So if they can just even get that, but the defense, this defense last year was the 10th best defense in the EPA over the second half of the season. Coincided with a lot of guys coming back from injury. They had, they lost, they had the fourth most Justin Gaitman's loss according to what's now FTN Fantasy, which used to be Football Outsiders, Outsiders guys, but those guys, but they were 10th in the second half of the season. They, they had the six highest pressure rate in the second half of the season. They got Baron Browning. They added a whole bunch of new faces on defense, like real talent, draft and free agency. They get guys coming back from injury like BJ Ojolari, who missed his second year, but had a solid rookie year.

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  Signed Josh Sweat, Dalton Tomlinson, drafted Walter Nolan in the first round. So they added real talent. And they were a top, again, a top 10 defense without this talent last year. So the Cardinals, I think are going to be at the very least frisky. And a team that I think there was one plus 125 on the odds that you sent me.

• 1:37:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they've been, they've been one of the most bet teams during the offseason.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  Secrets out. This was a lot more fun taken May. Right now in July.

• 1:37:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, counter. Can I counter?

• 1:37:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:37:34Bill Simmons?

  Who are the blue chippers on this team for you?

• 1:37:37Speaker 02

  Trey McBride.

• 1:37:38Bill Simmons?

  Right. There's one.

• 1:37:40Speaker 02

  Parrish Johnson, Jr., left tackle.

• 1:37:42Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:37:42Speaker 02

  Uh, Buddha Baker, safety. I don't even say, uh, they have another safety, Jalen Thompson, who is like borderline. Um, but they, I agree with, I know where you're going with this. It's a lot more green and yellow. Uh, more like above average to good.

• 1:37:58Bill Simmons?

  That's what, when I did all my preliminary rankings, I, I, I had those, I had Johnson, Harrison, McBride and Baker. Harrison's barely, I mean, he certainly didn't earn it last year. We're going more of the college pedigree.

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  Right. No, he's gonna be, he, he's just like his dad. It's crazy. Like he, it's, he's literally a bigger.

• 1:38:16Bill Simmons?

  I hope he's not just like his dad.

• 1:38:18Speaker 02

  No, yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:21Speaker 02

  Who? No, I don't know. No, but I, I do think that they were trying to make him a true X like I talked about with Pickens. He's not that. He's a route runner. Um, he's a guy that has to move around the formation. And so I think they pigeonholed him in the first half of the season and I think they're figuring out a little bit. But I, I, they need to do it. It's one of those, I have to see. Like in theory, it's like, yeah, they can do it, but it's like, I still have to see it.

• 1:38:45Bill Simmons?

  There were games where you didn't even know he was playing. He was one of those. It was like, was it Tobias Harris joke? It was like, hey, there's Marvin Harrison. I didn't realize he was out there the last two hours.

• 1:38:55Speaker 02

  No, he, he had some empty games. They, they faced, I talked about that cover two stuff. He was getting the respect of that already. But then I was kind of disappointed in the Cardinals passing game to like, go like, okay, open them up. Like you're getting these cover two looks. All right, move them to the slot or move, I don't know. You know, so it's one of those. I want to see it this year. But if they, if they figure it out, they got a lot of good pieces. I do think.

• 1:39:16Bill Simmons?

  They had that stretch. I think they won four straight. We, we got all excited about them. They were overachieving and then they just fucking cratered.

• 1:39:24Speaker 02

  Oh, it was bad.

• 1:39:24Bill Simmons?

  I mean, it was a cratering and they lost that Carolina game. Yeah.

• 1:39:28Speaker 02

  Yep. Carolina. Oh, the Carolina game was brutal.

• 1:39:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So I, I don't know. I just, I don't trust Kyler Murray at all. And I, I do not have them marked down. Maybe I'll change my mind as I keep reading the newspaper stuff. All right. Give me your second one.

• 1:39:42Speaker 02

  Uh, second one, or uh, my notes here. Okay. Second one, uh, was the Bears. Uh, I, I finally Their case. I'm going to dig in. I know. Again, I, I do believe in Ben Johnson. Uh, I, I believe in coaches that don't blink. I, I, I just, I, I think that that's gonna, I think he is very, very detailed. And I think he's working with a quarterback that is more detailed than people are giving him credit for. I think we've talked about this before, but I like the O-line additions. Like I, Joe Tooney's a top five guard. He is. Joe Tooney played tackle at the end of last year with the Chiefs. It was bad. Has. But that, but the thing was, it was very unfair. Uh, the thing with the Bears is for years, and I would say since Olin Crute's basically retired. So over a decade ago, they have had

• 1:40:27Speaker 02

  just a hole at center. And it's really helped, or it helped cripple their quarterbacks, their young quarterbacks. I, I'm a big believer in having a solid center at the very least to take the load off a young quarterback. They went and got, you know, kind of overpaid it a little bit. They got Drew Dahlman. But Drew Dahlman at the very least is a top half center in this league, a top 10 center in this league. He has to be specific. They have to use a lot of zone, but they're now working with a, a play caller that runs a lot of zone. And Ben Johnson, and I think it works with the quarterback because they're gonna do more boot and more play action and more movement to their offense. There's a lot more on this, more than just, ooh, good play caller from good offense goes to offense with quarterback. It's more than

• 1:41:09Speaker 02

  that. There's a lot of stylistic fits that makes sense here. Um, Caleb was a really good quick game and uh, screen thrower because he's so creative and throw sidearm and throw all these funky throws. Ben Johnson calls a lot of receiver screens. Like that, that's one of those sneaky parts about this Lions offense. Amon Ra S. Brown was getting so many receiver screens. Kalief Raymond, even Jameson Williams, all these guys. Now they get with DJ Moore, who's awesome on receiver screens. Roman Doon's great on receiver screens. Even the tight end, Colson Lovren's great on a little outside receiver screen. So. I I'm digging it. I I finally am actually like kind of buying the hype. I was not hyped last year. I I saw the holes in the O line. I'm like, this is, this might not go great. I know who the play caller is. I know how this O line is. This might not go great. This year, I'm actually buying

• 1:41:53Speaker 02

  it because of Dahlman, of Tooney, even Ozzy Tripolo, who they drafted on day two. There's just a lot that makes sense stylistically. And I like the defense. Having said that, they face the third hardest schedule. So that that's a little bit of the part of this. But I do believe in what I saw from the flashes of Caleb Williams, even though I think a lot of people are low on him right now. I think this is gonna work.

• 1:42:14Bill Simmons?

  The offensive line stuff's real. I mean, I was doing and shout out to Brandon Thorne, because I like when he does his rankings, but he did a good job. There's a couple other things. You know, they the ones that really watch it and study it and like, you just gotta trust them because I'm not gonna be able to know who the good right guard is on whatever. But it really looks like they have a top nine or 10 offensive line now. And that was the reason last year fell apart among the, you know, it was the coaching and the offensive line. They fixed the coaching. They're gonna be able to block. They have weapons. They spent money. Defense should be okay.

• 1:42:52Bill Simmons?

  You know, is Caleb good? I think is gonna be what we find out because I do feel like I just think Drake May is a safer bet than Caleb, as long as he, as long as he can avoid these big hits that he was taking last year. But I just think like-

• 1:43:07Speaker 02

  It's a feature, not a bug with with Drake.

• 1:43:10Bill Simmons?

  Just just go out of bounds. Don't put your, don't put your head down. You're in the NFL. You're not in the ACC anymore. Just go out of bounds. It's fine. But uh, but yeah, I see the case for the Bears, but I think it's a pretty popular one. What if you had to pick an AFC team? Who would you pick? For the out of nowhere?

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  Oh, AFC out of nowhere? Oh, man. I had, I think I wrote one down.

• 1:43:34Bill Simmons?

  Just say the Pats. Come on.

• 1:43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was the Patriots, wasn't it? It was the Patriots. Yeah, I, I think, I, I think I texted you this, but what's cool about Will Campbell is no matter, I think his floor is just so high that no matter what, he's a best five enabler, which, which means no matter what, the Patriots have their best five offensive lineman out there because he can play, I think, all five spots. And I, I, there's something to that. Like that, that is something that is really beneficial to an offense. He's also a high IQ guy, because he was calling up blitzes last year as a left tackle, a true junior left tackle, just stuff like that, just little things you see on tape, true leader type. Like, not only that, they got Garrett Bradbury, who was iffy last year. He, he gave

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  up a lot of pressure last year with the Vikings. But I did like their third round pick. I like Jared Wilson, um, from, from, the, from Georgia. Uh, I thought he's, he's more of a, he's a big athlete, different than what you usually see at center, but he really took to it. Like, he's a guy I was really high on this draft process. So I actually, and I like that he doesn't necessarily have to start right away, but I, I do think, I really like the upside of what he can become. And again, I talked about having a good center quarterback pairing. I, I think that's paramount to a good offense. So, yeah, that, I, of course, I just have to talk about the offensive line. Uh, but that's because we're, the success is going to come from. And then.

• 1:44:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but think about it though. Last year, they had a zero, zero out of 10 coaching staff, and they had a zero out of 10 offensive line. So if you're going just 20 points for those two units, they get a zero. And now maybe Vrabel, maybe he can be like a seven or an eight out of 10, and maybe the offensive line can be a four. And so that's gotta be worth like four wins.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  There's something to, like, people always think you have to go from shit to, like, great. There's something from just going to shit to not shit. You know, from a zero to a four, a zero, a one to a five or a six, like that, you can get a huge, I was just talking about the Bears. Drew Dolman just has to be above average, and it's like four tiers better center play than the Bears have had in years. But same with the Patriots, but it's just their entire offensive line. And Cole Strange is coming back. Cole Strange has had moments and stretches where he, like, it looks like a good starter. It's just that, it's just been few and far between with the injuries and stuff. So, yeah.

• 1:45:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'm already over Leverage with the Pats. You like the Cowboys.

• 1:45:46Speaker 02

  Where are they at now? Seven and a half?

• 1:45:48Bill Simmons?

  The Pats are like, are in the plus 156 range to make the playoffs, which seems way too low. Cowboys are plus 186. You also like, when you talk about this exercise, and I'm going to be talking about it a bunch on this podcast, but you almost like, it's like a nightclub. Somebody's got to come out to bring the new person in, right? So to me, if the Bears are going to get in there, Green Bay has to leave.

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:46:12Bill Simmons?

  Green Bay, that's, that's the spot, you know, for Arizona.

• 1:46:19Bill Simmons?

  It's probably the Minnesota spot if, if they're going to grab one of them, right? Cause I think we both think the Rams are going to still be there.

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  Pumped up the Rams too. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, all right. And then we just pumped up the 49ers as well. So it's who is not making it? I know that that's what's, I'm more bullish on the Seahawks too, more than most people are too, I will say.

• 1:46:38Bill Simmons?

  Oh, make, make the case. Cause I do feel like their, their over under seems at least a win too low. And I thought Sam, Sam Darnold versus Gino seems like sideways, right?

• 1:46:49Speaker 02

  I do too.

• 1:46:50Bill Simmons?

  Year two of the coach.

• 1:46:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:52Bill Simmons?

  I thought they had a really good draft. That was, I thought they had one of the four or five best drafts, right?

• 1:46:57Speaker 02

  Yep, I agree. And I think their defense is going to be like legit, legit. McDonald's defense usually takes a minute for, to click. And because just because it's so varied, they run a lot, they run a lot of a lot. People say, oh, you got to copy the McDonald's scheme. It's like, well, that means you're running everything. But no, they shored up. Once they got Ernest Jones last year, their linebacker play got better. Their defensive fronts can be really good. They got a lot of different body types too. They got gap shooters, pluggers. Leonard Williams really came along, who they traded for last year, but they have, they have a lot of talent up front. But also they have really talented DBs. Devon Weatherspoon is all pro worthy in the slot and he's going to get weaponized in this defense. But I, I agree with you. I think Darnold is a sidestep because I think the offense's floor is going to be higher.

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  They put a lot on Gino last year with a, a play caller that seemed to be in over his head, as it turned out. Now they get Kubiak and I think that offense, they're going to run a lot of zone, a lot of boots. Darnold's fine in that and he'll bring some highs to the offense because he's going to go for it. He's hella high. Water, he'll bring some lows too, but I think that's kind of part of the offense. You know what I mean? We're going to lean on the defense, have a zone run game and have some volatility with our pass game, but we'll live with it. I'm, yeah, I'm higher on them. They, they cut Noah Fant today, which was interesting, but I, I still like A.J. Barner a lot, their tight end and the guy they drafted Elijah Royal. But no, they, I'm higher on them than most because I think that defense is going to be pretty, pretty good.

• 1:48:24Speaker 02

  And I think the offense is going to be better than people anticipate. They drafted, I keep going and going, sorry, but Gray Zabel at guard. I like Ola Ola Woteemi at center. I like Charles Cross, the left tackle. And again, going from shit to not shit. Not saying this is going to be a top five offensive line, but a zone boot offense helps the offensive line. So they could be like 18th or 20th. And I think that I, I see a vision here, like I think a higher vision than maybe others do.

• 1:48:51Bill Simmons?

  Two good, two good drafts in a row, which is always, I liked their draft last year. I thought they got a couple of good guys out of that. So yeah, there's. I would, I personally like the Seattle case more than the Arizona case, but this is why we have all this time to think about it. All right. Well, we left just enough time, we left just enough time for the, the Minnesota Timberwolves. And the buzz already started that they got to do well this year. Anthony Edwards is going to start looking around. God, why, why do we have to do this with the NBA? I never understand it. Why? Can't we just have good things? He likes Minnesota. The team's good. They made the conference finals two years in a row. What are we doing?

• 1:49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Dame Moore covers the Wolves. Does a great job. He, he laid it all out. He's like, Anthony, no one can make more money than Anthony Edwards if he stays at Timber Wolf. Like ever, because he was a number one pick and he's already made all pro or all NBA teams. And so, you know, can hit a higher, higher number. He's not going anywhere. The, the, have we looked at the youth of this team? Like the, the summer league squad was like, that was a lot of fun to watch. When you have some legit NBA guys out there as opposed to like Tyus Jones is your best player.

• 1:50:00Speaker 02

  You know, T.J. Shannon was way too good out there and you could see Edwards was at every game and he was hyped up for all the guys and stuff. And yeah, he's not going anywhere.

• 1:50:08Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know what else you have coming this year, which I'm really excited about. The, the full bringing Garnett back into the fold.

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:50:15Bill Simmons?

  Cause that's been one of the big tragedies of that. Like, he hated Glenn Taylor. There were real reasons for it. Um, all he wanted to do was be a big part of the Minnesota Timberwolves, but he was gonna wait till, so now you're gonna bring, they'll retire his number this year. I don't know, the vibes are good. And by the way, you made the conference finals two years in a row.

• 1:50:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:34Bill Simmons?

  The team's doing well. Things are, things are okay.

• 1:50:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. And shoot, Joe Emberrane, who I, I admit, I watched five minutes of before the draft.

• 1:50:44Bill Simmons?

  The highlights were good.

• 1:50:46Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness. He's second youngest player in the draft, which is always gonna get me going. But he catches everything. Like, I'm, I'm pretty astounded by him. Like, I, I, he moves like a star. And I know I'm getting way ahead of myself. Five summer league games, four, four and a half.

• 1:51:02Bill Simmons?

  He's very fluid. I, I, I saw.

• 1:51:05Speaker 02

  It was, it's some, there's something there. Like, he catches, he has a good feel for space. He's stronger than, he's not just this linky athlete.

• 1:51:12Bill Simmons?

  A little French connection with Colbert. Obviously, Colbert might have tipped him off.

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. It's a, I, I was pleasantly surprised by his summer league. He's, he's a lot more there.

• 1:51:22Bill Simmons?

  From Dillingham though. Like, how does this Dillingham thing work? Cause, I mean, I thought the offseason was a miracle that you got to keep Nas Reed and Randall. I didn't think that, in February, that seemed impossible to me. I didn't, I didn't understand what was gonna happen with the lack of a market and how all these guys are basically screwed. But just to keep, it's similar, you're gonna keep one of those three and you, you kept two and three. You lost Alexander Walker, which is the easiest guy to replace. But,

• 1:51:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:51:47Bill Simmons?

  But Dillingham now has to be good next year, or at least as a bench guy.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  It, it was interesting, and I, I talked to Rob Morgan about this, but he, or Day Moore, I'm sorry. He had a, a point that he brought up then, the summer league, is they use Dillingham in a different role each game. Okay, you're the primary creator in this game. You're off ball in this game. And some of that was how the defenses were playing. But it was a really interesting, I thought his best game was when he was off ball. And as opposed to a primary creator. And I thought that was, you know, slashing and then making the extra pass. I thought it, you know, it's really nice too, is he can shoot off the bounce. And that's huge because of how he wants to play. He's a great oop thrower as well, which is something Ant is very weirdly iffy at, but that helps as well. It just opens up that part of the offense.

• 1:52:35Speaker 02

  I, he is not my cup of tea. Usually my types of players, I, you know, dribble heavy, undersized. That's not usually what I prefer, but the thing is, is they have a good size on the team to insulate that, you know, kind of just, it, there's not three of these undersized guys. Everybody else is jumbo on the Timberwolves at their position. So I do like that fit with it. I just think he's going to take some time and he needs, he's, he needs to play. He has to figure out what he can and can't get away with, but this is a team that wants to make a run. So it's, that's, that's the balance that I think Finch has to find.

• 1:53:06Bill Simmons?

  I wonder if he's trade bait.

• 1:53:09Speaker 02

  Hey, TJ Shannon being legit is making everything feel a lot better to me at least. I, I think he's going to really be a really nice player.

• 1:53:18Bill Simmons?

  The Conley piece is the piece that unfortunately, you're in the same boat that the Celtics were in with Horford last year where it can look good in the regular season, especially if he's only playing two games a week. But once, once you get in that playoff grind and you're playing every other day, and in his case, you have to go through OKC, the most frightening team of all time, if you're a guard, and he's going to be 38 next year. It's just not, you're just not beating OKC if he's playing big minutes.

• 1:53:43Speaker 02

  And it's terrifying when he's out there. You can feel, it's NBA playoff basketball and it's really nice to have a team to, to watch again throughout it. It's so crazy. And this is what the NFL is week to week. We talk about matchups, but it's so crazy in NBA when you just feel a guy getting picked on. Cause it's so open in the NBA. It's five on five. So you know who's getting isolated, who's getting picked, who has to, they're making switch onto the ball.

• 1:54:10Bill Simmons?

  What's the NFL equivalent of that?

• 1:54:13Speaker 02

  Running at a guy like if the guy can't hold up against the run and you just

• 1:54:18Bill Simmons?

  Right, like an undersized linebacker and undersized D end or something.

• 1:54:22Speaker 02

  He's a good player like, you know, like Bryce Huff or Hassan Reddick, really good against the pass, but it's like, okay, well, you're undersized. We'll just run a tight end, a right tackle at you over and over again and we'll get six yards. But that's kind of what it is. Or man to man coverage and a guy can't, guy, guy just can't keep up with the other dude. That's, that's what the NFL is. Like the best coaches is just like, you watch, yeah, you talk about Sean McVay and what Kyle Shanahan do, Sean Payton, Andy Reid, they do all the motion and stuff. All they're doing is manipulating the defense to get into a certain look. So this guy's exposed or this defense is exposed. And it's just, you know, same thing in the NBA that you see all the picks and switches and all that. It's like, oh, they're just trying to get this guy isolated 25 feet out. So it's, it's fun

• 1:55:06Speaker 02

  to watch. Like I'm trying to get more into NBA tactics. It's picking it up a little bit.

• 1:55:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, everyone is so freaking hunt heavy that, you know, it was interesting to watch that OKC Indiana series when, you know, there was just so much movement at all times. It was, it was like this level above hunting. It was pretty cool. And then of course, Halliburton blows out its Achilles and game seven falls apart. All right. By the way, before we go, what's this thing you're, the single thing you're most excited about this 2025 NFL season is you dive into things. What's your number one thing?

• 1:55:42Speaker 02

  Oh, man. All the second year quarterbacks. That's cheating, but all of them. Cause I think every story of them is going to be significant. Can commanders stay up top? What is Caleb Williams? I'm high on them. What's Drake May? I'm super high on him. Can Bo Nix improve? Can Michael Pennix be anything? What is J.J. McCarthy? Because I think all those teams can be, can make noise, like in some way, shape and form. So I think that's my cheating answer. But yeah, the second year QBs, there's a changing of the guard happening right now. We're, you know, we're feeling it with Mahomes and Allen and, and Lamar and Burrow and all these guys. There's more coming. We got some real talented dudes coming through and I'm excited to see them all take a leap.

• 1:56:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then this draft next year. I did my, yeah, yeah. Jesus. I did my QB rankings and I moved Mahomes out of the alpha spot for the first time this decade and I put Josh Allen in there.

• 1:56:35Speaker 02

  Okay. I love Josh Allen.

• 1:56:37Bill Simmons?

  One guy has to get the highest. Thing and I'm just like, I just think, listen, whatever we, I'm not going to do a 40 minute Mahomes conversation. I just think Josh Allen's the safest bet at quarterback in the NFL right now. And I think he has to be the alpha.

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  It's, I think there's a three man tier with Lamar Allen and Mahomes.

• 1:56:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I agree. But if you have to pick one.

• 1:56:59Speaker 02

  I have Mahomes in two minute, man.

• 1:57:01Bill Simmons?

  I'm just talking regular season, regular season.

• 1:57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Josh Allen's a force of nature because it's just.

• 1:57:06Bill Simmons?

  He has to be the regular season alpha at this point.

• 1:57:09Speaker 02

  Man, yeah. Just because the Bills offense is better. That's what it just looks like. He's, he's, he's fake. Like Mahomes is fake, but Josh Allen's actually fake. Like he's a creative player. He's what Cam Newton, Cam Newton times two to me, because I think even just throwing wise, he's doing even more. But yeah, no, I think Allen is, to me is the clear two. I still have Mahomes just because of respect to what he does. Uh, but I think Allen is a clear two to me. I mean, that's why he's defending MVP.

• 1:57:36Bill Simmons?

  One of the great Allen stats was that the 14, 14 sacks for Buffalo last year.

• 1:57:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:43Bill Simmons?

  Like, we should just get factored into your QB stats somehow. That was always a great Brady Manning stat.

• 1:57:49Speaker 02

  He gets kinda, I, I kinda have been really fighting this with Josh Allen and trying to like support him here. He's become one of the most cerebral quarterbacks in the NFL and he doesn't get any credit for it because he's just such a freak athletically. But he has become one of, I talked about CJ Stroud getting more control before the snap. Allen's gotten that the last two or three years and he is great at it. It's just that he doesn't get painted that way. Burrow kinda gets painted this way, you know, some other guys do. Allen doesn't get painted this way and he's one of the best at it. He calls out blitzes. He changes protections. I, I got reels of it on Twitter. But it's just, he has become like a complete guy outside of just the freakiness. And I think that even Mahomes too, all these top guys are very cerebral.

• 1:58:31Speaker 02

  But I think Allen kinda gets really underrated with that. Like he's one of the smartest QBs and he gets full control. And then he just is a point 0001% athlete on top of it, which also helps.

• 1:58:43Bill Simmons?

  Allen, then I had the next group, Allen the Alpha, the Blues, Mahomes, Burrow, Jackson. I put Daniels in there. I think he has to be. Yeah. So one more. So you'd nudge him back?

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  One more year. He's top 12, I would say to me. I gotta, I gotta see a little bit more.

• 1:59:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, this is why it's a work in progress. I'm glad I asked you.

• 1:59:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, no. And then I'm high on Jordan Love more than most people. I think his, he played banged up last year. He doesn't take sacks. He can hit all that high throws. I'm high on the Packers too. And I never even talked about him because I really liked Love and some of the other stuff they did. So I'm super high on him. I had, I had some other guys pretty high that you, I had Stroud at 10 because I, I think he's gonna, I think he's gonna have a decent year, even with all that line stuff. I just think they're gonna give more control and I like the receivers. I like the couple of guys they drafted and everything.

• 1:59:32Bill Simmons?

  Are you pro, anti, or in the middle with Purdy?

• 1:59:36Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm in the middle. I've, I've said I'm Brock Gnostic. I've been, I've been agnostic, but I, I like him more than I used to. I, they, last year was really cool to watch, watch him, kind of like they gave him more to do. They, uh, they don't use play action as much and they let him just truly drop back and be a quarterback and like go and progress. And it's kind of cool to watch them kind of give him the reins to do it. So like I, I've become more, and he can create a little bit. He's a really good thrower on the move. I, I used to be kind of lukewarm on Purdy, but now I like him. Like I, I, I like, like him. Enjoy watching him because he's got some balls on him too.

• 2:00:12Bill Simmons?

  25 to one for MVP. Your guy, Jordan Love is 25 to one as well.

• 2:00:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:00:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. But odds are it's gonna be Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. Just put those bets in now. All right. Nate Tice, go back to your newborn baby and your other child and your wife and Timberwolves summer league highlights.

• 2:00:29Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:00:30Bill Simmons?

  Anthony Edwards is staying. Kevin Garnett's coming back. Football's coming. Things are looking up. Great to see you. Thanks for coming out.

• 2:00:37Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me. Always fun.

• 2:00:38Bill Simmons?

  All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Nate Tice and Matt Belloni. Don't forget new rewatchables is coming on Monday. Species, a movie that you can find on streaming services. We're gonna really ramp up in August. I'm just warning you now. I'm getting all my little one, little dopey movies I wanted to do out of the way in July because it's time to do it. But we have some really good ones coming up as we head to 400 movies on the rewatchables. Yeah, we're getting close. Um, I'm going to be back again on Sunday. A week from now. So we are sticking to the Sunday's schedule and that's the plan. And I'll see you in a week. Enjoy the week.

• 2:01:31Bill Simmons?

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