ADHD Beyond the Label with Penn and Kim Holderness

ADHD isn’t about deficits; it’s about difference. Dr. Becky talks with Kim and Penn Holderness about emotional intensity, Deeply Feeling Kids, and why connection matters more than correction. They explore reframing ADHD through strengths, supporting kids’ regulation, and finding environments where they thrive.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 0:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So many parents come to me asking, "My kid was just diagnosed with ADHD. Where do I even start?" There's confusion. Sometimes there's guilt. Sometimes there's fear. And parents often feel like they're doing something wrong, that their kid can't focus or follow through. Now, ADHD can be complicated. But what I want you to know right from the start is that while it can be challenging, ADHD also signifies that your kid has some amazing gifts. Their brain works in a way that other people's brains don't, which means that in other environments and situations, they thrive. Like most things in life, two things are true. Today, I'm talking with Penn and Kim Holderness. They're

• 1:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  parents, they're creators, they are children's book authors, and they wrote this incredible children's book about ADHD. It's this beautiful story that helps empower kids, helps kids feel understood, and I think also gives parents a lens to better understand ADHD and what it does and doesn't mean. Today, we're going to talk about ADHD. We're also going to talk about the overlap with deeply feeling kids. And we're going to talk about what works, learning, strengths, and you're just going to get so much out of it, maybe for your kid or maybe for yourself. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. We'll be back right after this.

• 2:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hi guys.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Hi. Good to see you again.

• 2:14Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Good to see you. I am so excited for this conversation. We are going to talk so many things. We're going to focus on ADHD, the way you guys think about it, and a framework that I think is going to empower so many people. So let's just start with the basics. What is your experience with ADHD, kind of personally, and in parenting?

• 2:34Speaker 01

  I'll start with personally. I was diagnosed when I was 20. So the first 20 years of my life were a bit confusing.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  I definitely knew that I was a little bit different from everyone else, particularly on the playground. I didn't have as much trouble in school until later on when critical thinking came up. But as a kid, I cried a lot. And not just when I was a toddler, but when I was in middle school, I found myself getting like really emotionally overwhelmed at certain situations, or just so happy that I couldn't control myself on that end as well. You know, sitting still was not really a great option for me. When I had to sit still, the way that I released my energy was by chewing on my t-shirt

• 3:24Speaker 01

  for several years, to the point that I would have this like giant collar of saliva. And it grossed out all of my friends, all of my teachers and my parents. And the response was, well, you just gotta stop doing that. And, you know, just like every other ADHD kid, I got corrected a lot, you know, when I was doing something wrong. But the toughest part was, you know, in the playground. And it wasn't like I grew up in the mean streets. It was, I was in a suburban town and things didn't go my way and I could not stop from feeling deeply and tearing up. And so getting the explanation when I was 20 was at least a good start in the right direction, but there were even more challenges after that.

• 4:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I think in parenting, so we wrote our first book, ADHD is Awesome, and we just honestly were deeply curious about...

• 4:15Speaker 02

  How this was impacting our marriage and how it is. And so something we learned in that process that I was unprepared for is the emotional dysregulation part of ADHD that everybody talks about, you know, oh, you're squirmy and you, you know, can't sit still and you lose focus. But the emotional component to me is such a big thing that people often don't talk about. And it, so my son, who's now 15, has ADHD. And when he was diagnosed, I'm like, oh, my God, that explains so much. That explains him, you know, losing a basketball game that where there's nothing on a line. He could not be consulted, felt everything so deeply. And, um, and I was like, oh, God, get it together.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  You're nine, you know, and but he could not. And it just explained, it explained so much.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thanks for letting us steal feeling deeply like twice in that conversation.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Deeply feeling kid, man.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Stealing that because we learned that from you.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, we learned, we learned those words from you. Yes.

• 5:15Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Oh, well, it's true, though. Like you see a kid and I think, and it goes to what you were saying too. So many times when our kids have any type of inconvenient behavior, we think, stop that, stop that versus, well, like, what's going on underneath that? And I think then we confuse that. People will then say to me, and I know you two wouldn't, oh, so then it's just okay? Like, we're not talking about whether a behavior is okay or is not. We're just talking about whether we want to be effective in understanding it and intervening. And how could he be effective in intervening with, I don't know, a kid's layup if you don't understand why they're missing the layup? Like, trying to understand why they're missing doesn't mean you think it's cool that they're missing. It's just the only way you could coach them is to understand it.

• 5:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I think there's something about behavior and kids probably gets hundreds of years of being parented through punishment and control. I don't know. It's like in our bones where we forget, oh, of course I have to understand why a kid is crying about basketball at age nine or why a kid is squirmy or why a kid does this so I can actually figure out what they might need, right?

• 6:19Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we're talking about, we're talking about corrections and we've, that's really all we knew. It's probably all our parents knew. It's definitely all our parents' parents used to, used to do. I went to, I don't know if I should tell this story. I went to visit my grandfather one time when I was like three years old and I got, my dad told me the story. He's like, I got, I got back and my dad was like, how was your trip? And I just kept saying, pop, pop, pank. Pop, pop, pink. Like, that was something I had. But the point is that the evolution.

• 6:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  We're getting better, right?

• 6:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:53Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I wonder if it has to do with, like, I always think, I think diagnosis, let me just be clear, can be so helpful, okay? And, like many other things that are nuanced, so many times the words for diagnosis feel so judgmental, where, at least in adults, at any age, I'm like, well, everything we're doing is an adaptation. We're trying to adapt, and then we put these mean words, like oppositional defiant disorder, you know, ADHD is like a disorder. And so I'm curious how you think about that label, that word, is there another way to reframe it? Or is it useful to think of it as a disorder? How do you two see that?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  The biggest issue is that there's no mention of the emotional component. And, you know, it's a regulatory difference. The name's terrible.

• 7:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Terrible.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, I'm sorry. It is. But we don't have a deficit of attention. We have plenty of attention. We just focus it in the wrong place a lot of the time. Many of us, including most girls who are underdiagnosed, it's not hyperactive, it's inattentive. That's not in the name. And, you know, you could call it a disorder if you want to. I think a more accurate term would be a brain difference, so.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, a difference, a delay, I don't, it is one of the worst names, and it's, we were, we were doing active work researching for our, we didn't know it was going to be a book at that time, but we were, I was trying to learn a lot, honestly, for the sake, for our marriage. And when my son was diagnosed, we assumed, but, you know, when you're in school, you need the paperwork and the, like, all the, all the stuff. Even getting hearing it, when it was delivered to me, and in a house where ADHD is, like, we talk about it, we celebrate it, it felt so heavy. And my son, it felt like we got this really awful medical diagnosis. You know, some, some really, it was going to be just like this really hard thing that he was going to suffer with the rest of his life.

• 8:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Was like, you, you have cancer.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  And it felt so heavy and we got in the car and I was like rewind pause. We we know that this is gonna be okay. We know that this this this is wrong. We know the amazing things your brain is gonna do called pen. So when we went by the time I got home, he had like, he was like, let's party. You have a brain like mine. Let's do it. Let's figure this out. Like, what are you good at? Where do we need help with like the the reframe?

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the diagnosis point is we talked about it in our kids book. And there's like a picture. We the biggest illustration we have in the book is the diagnosis. And okay, Becky's got it. It's like eight or nine pages in. Um, it's it's the name. And then it the name is literally causing the child to cower into the corner. Because, yeah, so you see the girl, there she is. Um, it, you know, because it made me, it definitely, it definitely hits you with three negative hammers. Deficit, hyperactivity and disorder.

• 9:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And and you know, it's so one of my friends whose husband coaches basketball. Actually, I just keep going the basketball metaphors, but the kid was diagnosed with ADHD. And she was like, oh, my goodness. And one of the things I said to her is, first of all, I just want to remind you, nothing has changed about your kid. Like your kid before the label and after it is no different. Okay, so let's just remember that. She's like, that's helpful. And I said, let's think about it this way. Let's say, because I was talking to her and her husband, there was a new player on the basketball team. And this kid tend to dribble a lot and like was often late to pass the ball. Okay, and he came in and he said, you know, and someone told you this kid has a passing disorder. They have a passing disorder, right? Now, here's why that wouldn't be useful. Well, he's never gonna learn how to pass.

• 10:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, he's not gonna be a good player. Here's why that could be useful. Oh, he's a little late to pass sometimes. He's also a really freaking good dribbler. Okay, that's really interesting. How might I coach him differently? What might he need in a different way? By the way, this kid still wants to play basketball. It like, we have to help him, but this can actually help me think about how to coach him. And and I I feel like, I don't know if that resonates, right? And it kind of speaks to how a label can feel so heavy, or it can feel like this way of learning how to best empower your kid.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Strength-based teaching, yeah.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And it's so funny, you go to athletics, because we use a lot of athletic metaphors in our house as well. But as a parent, something I have learned too is, and I learned this from professionals and I'm still working on it, is when the situation arises, like, does the homework but doesn't turn it in? Like, the frustrating thing that seems so easy. We do go to, like, correction, or, I mean, I'm sorry, connection then correction? And it's like, this sounds, this is, this is, must be really hard to get a zero on that assignment. So tell me, like, what do, what do we need to, what do we need to work on? And so it immediately, even, even with my husband,

• 11:55Speaker 02

  it like, the temperature comes down a little bit. And I'm not saying I never cracked, like, but just to be able to, like, match that. And the more teachers and coaches, and like, we're hearing a lot of feedback that, like, how especially middle school coaches, it's like, there's one way to do it and that's the only way. The more they can understand, like, how these different brains work, you're gonna get so much more out of these kids.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  And it's understandable for parents, like, the instinct is to be like, "This is your homework. All you had to do is this." Just push it forward. And that, that's like, I feel like that's been the default for parents for a while. And it's tough as for a parent, very, very difficult and understandable. And the hard thing to do is to start with the connection. But the more you do it, the more comfortable you are. And there is a palpable difference in our son, as well as in me, when, I think she's sort of the ringleader when it comes to this, when she, when she, you know, makes that connection happen.

• 12:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. And just to put a visual to that, okay, because... I'm very logical. So when parents like, but why do I need to do that? My parents didn't do that. Like, I don't want to explain it theoretically, right? Like, sometimes it's actually helpful to be like, here's why it's actually efficient. When your kid is overwhelmed with homework, there's the emotions about the homework, and then there's the academic ability to do the homework. Okay? The truth is, if emotions are overpowering us, none of us can access whatever our quote "hard skills" are. This is why I always think it's so funny when people talk about emotion stuff as soft skills. I was like, those are the hard skills. Those are the hardest ones. Okay. And so let's say emotions in your son are overpowering him in his room. And you can actually visualize that. This is true for kids with ADHD.

• 13:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  This is definitely true for deeply feeling kids. They have intense feelings. It's a big bubble, okay? What kids need with their big emotions more than anything else is containment. Because when a feeling has overpowered them, we can't make it go to zero. But if someone can give us a little bit of a container, then we're not alone in it. Which means, someone's almost giving us a shell to put it in. They're like, "I will help hold this for you." And if someone does that for you, now instead of an emotion being 10 out of 10, maybe it's an 8 out of 10, right? And as soon as something's at an 8 out of 10, we can work with that. We can literally work with that. When something's at a 10 out of 10, whether you think it's right, whether you think I wouldn't feel that way, whether you think it's ridiculous, the emotion is the truth.

• 14:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  It's already here, people. We can't fight it. It's already happened. And so offering connection is a form of containment. When you say to someone, "I used to feel like that when I started my homework too. Oh, this problem feels too big to solve." Oh, you'd probably rather be doing 197 other things, except for homework. And you're still trying to figure it out. I get it. That stinks. You're kind of not just connecting. I think you're giving a container for someone. And they're like, "Great, I can put some of my feelings in, and maybe I'm left with 80%." And I think when you think about it that way, it not only becomes nice and relationship-building, you understand that it's actually also the most efficient, logical thing to do.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  I mean, you explained that so perfectly. I didn't, I never knew why it worked, but I even think within our marriage, you know, like, the stove gets left on, or something like that. If I come at him screaming about how dangerous this is for our family, it's not gonna, it's gonna make him feel great shame. And like, this is based on a true story. But if I say, hey, this is obviously not cool, there must have been a lot going on when you were trying to cook dinner. What, like, what are we gonna do? Like, that is a lot to manage what you just did.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  It's the difference between a shame spiral and a support staircase.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  We're workshopping.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  I'm workshopping, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get my license, my coaching license. No, he's not. So think about, no, no, no, think about, so the spiral, the shame spiral, everybody knows about, the support staircase is something goes wrong, and Kim says to me, man, I'm sorry, that must be hard. And instead of me spiraling downward, I feel the love, I feel the connection. And it actually causes me, and I think it causes some other people to say, man, thank you for feeling this way. I'm gonna work my butt off to try to keep this from happening again.

• 16:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I always tell people, when you do something that you're not proud of, there's always a part of you that wants to feel defensive, and there's a part of you that wants to own it. That's true with any conflict. Like, there's a part of us that's like, man, I wish I put the stove off. And there's a part of us that's like, there's nothing I could have done. It's not my fault. Right? Whatever the conflict is. Here's the interesting thing about internal conflict. As soon as anyone in your life owns one part of the conflict, you have to own the other. Meaning, as soon as you say to someone, you really shouldn't have done that, like, what's wrong with you? They're like, all right, so you've taken the part of me that would feel responsible. So now the only thing I'm left with is the part of me that's like, I do everything around this house, whatever it is. And then, which

• 16:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  makes the other person go further. So when you say to someone, I'm sure that's not what you wanted either. Right? You're not, you're actually allowing them to also say, like, yeah, I feel bad. Right? So, and we see this in couples all the time. Like, you know this. As soon as someone's like, I don't want to go to your parents for the holidays. You're like, I do. But you're like, I don't even like my parents. I don't. Why am I saying that? Because they're, and as soon as someone's like, let's go to your family. You're like, nah.

• 17:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right? So I think it's powerful to realize again, if we're trying to be long-term focused with our kids, we don't want them to feel shame. Ironically, shame gets in the way of accountability. How counterproductive. But the more you own the you should have, the more you take away their ability to reflect on, well, what could I have done differently? What would I have needed? And that's, that makes everyone more frustrated.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Do we send you the invoice like for the free therapy we're giving right now? Like, what's my copaying?

• 17:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know what? Kim, I truly, this is the best learning experience. I learned so much from you guys in the way that you approach things. So, okay, so Penn, the last time we were together, you said something to me that I want to, because I think it's related to this conversation. You said the term deeply feeling kid or that framework was another layer to you understanding yourself. So how did, can you, can you say more about that?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was, so it was the best explanation to the emotional dysregulation component of ADHD. It was three really simple words. And I heard it on TikTok.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  I forwarded him one of your videos.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, she sent me the video and I don't even know if she was doing it for me. I think it's possible she was trying to help explain our own child, who was also a deeply feeling kid. But I like, I was deeply feeling after hearing your thing about deeply feeling kid. I had to kind of sit back and let it wash over me that this is, not only is this like the perfect explanation, but it's also non-negative. It's not crybaby. It's not easily upset. Cry, I was called a crybaby by everyone who I knew, including some teachers.

• 19:01Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Oh, Penn, I'm so, I am, that it's a term, I haven't actually heard that term in so long. I don't know why I think about drama queen, dramatic disproportionate, overreacting, but you're right. Crybaby like

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Tough one.

• 19:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. So, oh.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  And I was a teenager when I got called that because I was still feeling those feelings. I was, so I, I was late to, um, to the emotional regulation because of ADHD. I went through puberty when I was like 32. I was like a really, that's not true. I was, but I was like in high school, mid-high school, when I finally hit my growth spurt. So like all of those things at the same time made life difficult for me. That delay made it tough. If I had heard deeply feeling kid as a child, it, I think it acknowledges that, yeah, I get overwhelmed sometimes. But also like, that's a skill to be able to feel deeply.

• 19:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes, and you know, two things. Number one, I think a kid's deepest fear is actually being un-understandable. It's the worst feeling. You almost have this existential crisis as a kid, like these sensations in my body that feel so intense. If no one believes me, they think I'm overreacting. Like, there's almost like, do I exist? Am I real? Are these things real? Like, it's an awful feeling. So sometimes terms are questions that it's like, oh, like the idea that someone or a term could understand me is so relieving. Right? And so that's number one. And number two, I'm asked all the time, and what you said, Penn, really struck a nerve. Dr. Becky, your deeply feeling kid framework, that, that course, whatever it is, is that going to help my kid grow out of this? And I'm like, oh, my goodness, I hope not.

• 20:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That will help your kid harness everything that grow out. I, I don't wish that for any child. Harness? Let's, let's do that. And Penn, knowing you, like, and I think about what you're able to do and what you can notice. And I think so many of the best comedians, the situational comedians are all deeply feeling kids. They notice things no one else has ever put words to or noticed, but when they name them, you're like, oh, my goodness. You can have music around it and song and play around with things. I, I don't know anyone who could do that, who probably wasn't, isn't a deeply feeling person.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like, think about the, the sort of building blocks of entertainment. It's, um, yes, and, yes, and, and when you get excited about something, yes, and also this, and also this. And, and you let your brain kind of receive it because You're caught in this euphoria of creativity. It's the opposite of no but, which is where we live a fair amount of our lives as well. But yeah, I think like, I definitely, I found solace in middle school and high school, in theater arts and in creativity, because I think it was a lot of other people that were similar to me and probably all had similar brains.

• 21:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 21:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 22:35Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 23:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 24:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So let's, let's move from this to the practical and concrete. Like, what are some of the things you've done in your home and your relationships, whether your marriage or with your kid? Knowing, again, this framework, ADHD, deeply feeling kid, all of it together. What are some of the things that have, that have helped? Like, what are some of the things that you've tried? I'm curious, like, some of the rhythms you guys have.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  It's interesting because we, we have two children and my, my daughter's now a freshman in college and very, like, oldest daughter stereotype. Like, high achieving, straight A, type A, did everything herself. Met every milestone early, like, you know, so then when we had just like a very giggly, happy, normal child who did, who was just, you know, normal. It, it sort of rocked like what expectations were. So I think holistically, very early, we had to say, there are a lot of different paths to this. So we removed like what right looks like. Does that make sense? Like, we, it, there's no one right way to get through school.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  There's no, what, like, you're, let's find out where you're awesome. So that's the next thing we do is for both my husband, and I think we make this a family practice, is that when we see, especially my son, doing something that's just amazing that only his brain can do, because he has, he has the same brain he does. He started a sports blog and so he has a Substack where he's writing all about, and he is so fast and the things he notices about his favorite team and he's so prolific. And I've said, you know, no, there's not a lot of 15 year olds who can do that and do that that quickly. And so we, we work to like find out where he's killing it to the point where, yes, he's in basketball, but he is a little To grow just like his dad. So he's now like an improv comedy.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  And he has found, so all that spontaneity that the ADHD has given him, like it is rewarded in improv. Right? Like you are supposed to be spontaneous.

• 25:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  So we're, we just have had to really work. But it, but it's hard because we live in a community that worships basketball. We live in the Raleigh area and this is like, this is where you, you know, so this is.

• 26:10Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Go Blue Devils, you know?

• 26:12Speaker 01

  You know, we were getting along just fine. This was, we were off to a really good start.

• 26:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I've never pretended to be someone I'm not, so I'm not going to start today.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Same here, same here.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  But it is, it is strange to like deprioritize basketball. You were, and I say this to people who live in New York or California. I'm like, you don't understand. The town shuts down when like college, it is.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we've just had to set an example and say like, no, there's more than one way to do this. There's more than one way to do this. And internal systems, like we have a hamper at the bottom of the stairs where all the crap goes that I can't deal with because I cannot deal with the crap. And that, you know, you look for your crap in one spot. Um, we have a pretty strict, like, we just had to be very strict about like cleaning things, setting a lot. We have a thousand alarms. We have a big, uh, massive calendar, digital calendar on our countertop where every morning it's your first stop.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  So just a lot of that.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. He has some nighttime preps that he does just to make sure that the morning isn't a total disaster when he wakes up. Um, it's all like, it's all upstream solutions, right? Things that cut the problem off before it arrives.

• 27:17Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  A hundred percent. You know, something I've shifted from where, you know, in some of these systems, kids with ADHD without, like, a lot of kids need these things, right? Like they, they need systems. We all need rhythms. And one of the things I used to have with my kid is a list that I made sure was their handwriting. And it said something like, things to do for tomorrow. Okay. But you know what a shift I made? And I swear it's changed the way my kids approach these habits at night to set themselves up. I will take care of my tomorrow self by, that's what the top of the list says. And it's become kind of like anything else in your family, like this eye roll-y. My mom is so cheesy, like so cringe, like taking care of my tomorrow self. Yeah, you know, and I'm like, fine, I'll take cringe any day if it sets you up for success. Like, give it, I don't care.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:01Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Um, but it's interesting, like, oh, like my oldest packs snacks for school before he has football. Right. And so he is taking care of his tomorrow self. What a horrible thing to be rushed at the end, you know, right before you leave. Like, I don't have my snacks. Um, and that little shift also makes me think about what you're saying. Like, can we do even these systems from a strength-based? Not, I'm not going to remember this, so I have to do it the night before.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, I like that.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Tomorrow is that's smart. Like, what I would do, because I'm cheeky, is I would add, like, really fun ways I take care of myself. Like, eat some candy, or, you know, play an hour of video games after my homework's done. Because those are ways that I think we can take care of ourselves as well.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  It's so funny, but you, I think this is gonna, we're gonna implement this in our house. Because my son, he's very funny. He is famous for saying, "That's a problem for tomorrow's PC." Like, Pen Charles will do that, that's a problem for tomorrow, Pen Charles. Like, that's not my, my, my problem right now. So, I, I like this language.

• 29:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, well, I, I use it too. Like, I don't know about you, but for coffee in the morning, sometimes I'm like, oh, do I set it up the night before? But when I shift to, hold on, like tomorrow Becky is gonna be so grateful to right now Becky that she just gets to, like, have hot coffee? That's so nice to, I liked, it's such a nice thing to do. And then I feel like I'm, I'm doing it from a different place, which affects my energy differently. The, the other thing I wanted to say, and I'm curious how, to expand on this more with improv versus maybe other things that aren't as natural. ADHD, or any framework, in some ways, like, every kid has certain environments that are easier for them and harder for them. And I think one of the things you figured out with your son is, like, it's important for kids

• 29:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  who have ADHD, so much of the academic world is easier for kids, who are like your daughter. Linear, naturally, maybe organize their executive function comes a little more naturally. They learn it once. They extend it everywhere else versus I kind of have to learn it in all the scenarios each time. But it's so interesting for me to think about parents. Like you were saying, okay, if that's true, he's gonna have to figure that out and we'll help him. And like, it's really important to find an environment where he feels like this does come easily to me. I'm like, good at this naturally. Right?

• 30:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  There are some stereotypical environments inside of environments that are that are good ideas for ADHD, for most ADHD kids and adults. Remember now, it's all different, right? There's ADHD gets along well, OCD, anxiety, autism, all that stuff. It's so not every ADHD is the same. In fact, you could argue each one is different. Overwhelmingly, if you're in college or when you're in a high school in a big class and you're an ADHD student, if you sit in the front, it makes a difference. For the better, most of the time. Sometimes there's, there's people who the anxiety takes over. But like, that's one of the things that I say to PC and that I said to myself when I was going through high school. So there are like,

• 31:00Speaker 01

  there are, there are such specific, strong, like places that'll set you up for success if you have ADHD. And a really great thing to do is for a parent to reach out to a teacher with this specific question when it comes to a day. Right? Even if there's a really tough class, if you're an ADHD kid that's on medication who gets really tired and zonked out by the time that school is over, is there a way that you can, you know, shift that class to the morning? There are a lot of ways to do it. I would say that for the most part, if you are a parent who asks a teacher a direct question like that, instead of, what do we do? The path to a solution is a lot easier.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I will also say like to your question about like finding community with, within community. We got a suggestion this week. We were doing, you know, all these like book signings and everything. And a parent actually had the most brilliant idea that I loved because also something I didn't realize is that the self, the shame that the ADHD years will feel, that really does damage self-confidence, especially teens. And so

• 32:06Speaker 02

  They, you know, this book ADHD is awesome. So they have started their own sort of ADHD is awesome for their particular kid. And like when they see their kid doing something amazing, or that they enjoy, that they love, that they they have a lot of interest in, that they kind of write about that and they post it in a family and where the kids see it. I'm totally going to steal that too, because I think throughout the day, a lot of ADHD kids hear over and over again, how not awesome they are in the school. So I just think that when we find that that thing that lights them up, like we just have to follow it, even if I don't understand anything about improv comedy. I just like got on the Google machine and figure that out. So, um, yeah.

• 32:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Thinking about the parent who has kids younger than yours, who's maybe going through an evaluation process, or just got, you know, that ADHD label. What is something like you would tell them? What is something you'd want them to know?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  The parent or the kid?

• 33:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Let's start with the parent and then maybe the kid. Let's do both.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, don't be scared of this. In fact, opposite. This is going to take a lot of your fears away, your fears of the unknown. Um, when you, when you approach this with your kid, make sure and know that all of the issues that your child may be having, whether it's like the traditional kind of lack of focus, hyperactivity, behavioral issues, that same brain is capable of doing things that a neurotypical person cannot do. There are studies. We are more creative. We are more spontaneous. We come up with

• 33:49Speaker 01

  creative solutions to problems in an efficient way that others cannot. But we live in a world that was mostly made for a neurotypical human being. And so this is a, the understanding is a path to adapting and excelling.

• 34:05Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Beautiful. What about to a kid?

• 34:07Speaker 01

  You're not alone. You are not alone and there is nothing inherently wrong with you. You have a really cool brain. I think like if you'll let us try to explain some of it to you and you understand it, there's some work that you can do that can sometimes even be fun to make the most of this brain.

• 34:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So let's use that as a bridge to your book, All You Can Be With ADHD. What happened in your house between the two of you that like, let's do this? Was there a moment?

• 34:36Speaker 02

  So our first book, ADHD is awesome. We tried to write it for the ADHD brains. So there's a lot of graphics and a lot of callouts and all that stuff. And we had the opportunity to go to a lot of book signings. You have to promote a book. So we went all these book signings and there would be so many kids there and they had their highlighters and they had their post-it notes and they were trying, God bless them, to read it. But really, it wasn't meant for an eight-year-old to read, right? It was meant for their parents to read. So it came because they literally said, like, you have to make a book for us. So it was just the biggest no-brainer and I would love to do a tween adaptation as well.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  But yeah, it was so much fun and it's so much, and a children's book. I still have all my kids' children's books. I love a book. I love that time. Yeah. So it was so much fun.

• 35:29Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What page, what line, was there something in it that like you each have a favorite part? They're like, oh, I just love that when we get there.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  You have it all memorized because you've read it out loud so many times. But there is a moment where, you know, you have to acknowledge the hard stuff that comes with this. And so there's a moment where the narrator's sort of calling out.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it can be normal. I've said to myself, oh, it can be tough. I've said to myself, why can't I be normal like everyone else? Sometimes we're forgetful. We interrupt friends and makes us forgetful. And you know, bits and pieces about how you can get sad and even frustrated and sometimes mad. And then right after that, there's a page that says, does this sound familiar? The examples I gave. If you answer yes, you are so very brave. And that's my favorite.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  And I have to say, when he read that out loud to the kids and they were all jumping like, does this sound like me? And they were jumping up and down like there was. Pride, but there was like an acknowledgement of like, oh my God, you you know that? Like, you know that too? You know what that feels like? So seeing that read out loud and then just being able to tell them how brave they are for acknowledging it. Like, my my mom heart just like melted into pieces.

• 36:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And that goes back to like, the pain isn't the thing. It's feeling like nobody understands the thing, or you're alone in the thing. Like, I, you know, we can't, we can't change the hard, but we can change the alone. And I think in the book, you change the alone, right? And you, and obviously there's strengths too, but like anything, there's hard parts. And like, if if we're afraid to name what's hard to our kids, they get really freaked out. Because they're like, oh, forget me feeling like this hard. I guess this is just bad, because my parents only avoid what's bad and dangerous, right? Then it makes it feel worse.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  And in the book, there immediately after, there's sort of a reward. Um, you know, it's not, we're not sitting in that suck for for too long. It's okay, you admitted you did this. Now let's hear about the awesome stuff. And they we get right, and we then we include sharks and ninjas and other things that people from, you know, with ADHD tend to like.

• 37:33Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  That's right. Just like you were saying, it's it's increasingly hard in this world to me to have something like two things are true. Like, the answer to most things are that two things are true. It's hard and it's amazing, right? This is easy, that's hard. And when you can kind of name both without making one more powerful or cancelling of the other. Like, I think it speaks to our body. Like, their bodies know that already. This is hard and this is amazing. Like, oh, someone can finally name that to me. And I think your book really, really does that. So beautiful.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 38:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. All right, we're gonna do a little rapid fire to end. You ready? Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right. Have a sip of water. Okay, finish the sentence. ADHD has taught me.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  ADHD has taught me patience.

• 38:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Oh.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's go with that.

• 38:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I've heard it's a virtue. I'm working on finding it, but if people say that.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Currently possess it, it's a muscle I'm trying to build.

• 38:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, yeah, 100%. That's the best it gets. Something around ADHD or deeply feelingness that I've stopped apologizing for is.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Fidgeting. It's what your body needs. You burn calories a day. Like, you can try as hard as you want to, but it's the other option for me, fidgeting is much worse.

• 38:48Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Hmm.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Like, I probably would blow a gasket. So, yeah, I've just talked about it. It's just what it's what I do.

• 38:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Okay, now for Kim, then I'm gonna ask a version, Penn to you. Kim, an ADHD strength I see in my son is?

• 39:03Speaker 02

  His creativity, and his ability to make it comedy. He spots things in this world and makes them so funny, and I don't know another brain that could do that.

• 39:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And Penn, an ADHD strength that shows up in my parenting is?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  I think making things fun. I think it's important for things to be fun, for especially younger children. And sometimes that's disguised in gamification and in, you know, taking a chore and making it more enjoyable. And I think that my ADHD creativity has helped with that.

• 39:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Amazing. Okay, last one. The thing most people misunderstand about ADHD is?

• 39:52Speaker 01

  That it's just an executive functioning disorder and that it has nothing to do with your emotions. I think most parents are not ready for that when they take their kid in.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  I would also say, most parents don't know it has nothing to do with your academic ability.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  It is separate from that. They are not, they're not behind or slow. They haven't, there's just a delay in how this is, like, how they're actually processing it.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  You can get all A's and have ADHD.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, something just crystallized for me, that what you said, Penn, what you just said, that it's not just executive function. I get this question all the time. Your deeply feeling kid framework, I don't know if that's for me, because my kid has ADHD. Or, my kid's a deeply feeling kid, so does that mean they don't have ADHD? And it's interesting, it's like, I think what you're saying is like, these, they're overlapping, right? And like, both, both can be true. And often, maybe with the ADHD part, people are explained it in a way with the emotionality, the deeply feeling this, isn't always included. So it feels like an either or. But, but when you really think about a kid beyond any label, like, often, often those things kind of come together.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  You said it better than I would.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Anything we didn't cover today? Anything, like, I just want parents listening to this to know, whether it's about themselves, or their kids, what else, what do we want to end on?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess just like celebrate those moments when your child is truly happy and feeling the flow as someone with ADHD. Like, I know what my son's happiest moment ever was, and I like to bring it up all the time. It was the one time that Duke and North Carolina played in the Final Four, and it hasn't happened before. It'll never happen again. It was Coach K's last game, and Carolina beat Duke, and my son took his shirt off and waved it like a helicopter because of the Petey Pablo song. And we... Well, I'm sorry, have I hit a nerve?

• 41:37Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Do you like to test? Is this like a testing emotion regulation live situation? Is that what you do to people? That's what you're known for at the end? You're just like, let me see how much I can trigger you and how you react?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  It was really an attempt to try to just wrap this up the way I really wanted it to. And Dr. Becky taking deep breaths in her chair really is because I love her. It's what I kind of, it's kind of what I wanted.

• 41:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I mean, really. Well, this has been real. I'm gonna...

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Never would have seen you guys.

• 42:04Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't even know if I'm gonna air this episode.

• 42:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  No, this is the best. And really, the way you bring together the truth, naming hard things, naming amazing things, de-shaming, humor, like, that all can be part of one dance. And I just think it's a magical combination. And I love talking to you guys. I love knowing you. And I really, really love this book. And I know it's gonna help so many families. So, thank you.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Well, you've done a lot for us, a lot for me personally. And meeting you a couple of months ago was like meeting a Cooper flag. It was like meeting like...

• 42:40Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I like that. I will take that.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  A superstar that I was like nervous to talk to.

• 42:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah. Well, thank you. More soon. Thanks, guys.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 42:49Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I hope you got as much from that conversation as I did. I hope you realize that ADHD doesn't have to be thought of as a disorder. It can be a framework for understanding your kid, their strengths, their struggles, and you can go from there. Two, don't forget, ADHD is often about relationship with emotions and emotionality, and so many of those kids are deeply feeling, in addition to the things we often hear about: planning, executive function, attention. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground and a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside.

• 43:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'll see you soon.

• 43:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 44:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 45:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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• 45:57Dr. Becky Kennedy?

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