Wayward

In the new Netflix series Wayward, Toni Collette plays a deeply creepy woman who runs a facility that promises to fix troubled teens. A cop (Mae Martin) moves to town with his wife, who's a graduate of the facility and an acolyte of its leader. And he starts to think something is very, very wrong. Things are not all they seem in the picturesque town of Tall Pines, but you’ll have to watch to find out why. To access bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening for Pop Culture Happy Hour, subscribe to Pop Culture Happy Hour+ at plus.npr.org/happy. http://plus.npr.org/happy See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:15Linda Holmes?

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• 0:37Linda Holmes?

  In the new Netflix series, Wayward, the picturesque town of tall pines is home to a facility that promises to fix troubled teens shipped in from far and wide. The deeply creepy woman who runs the place is only more unsettling because she's played by Toni Collette. And when a cop moves to town with his wife, who's a graduate of the facility and an acolyte of its leader, he starts to think something is very, very wrong. I'm Linda Holmes, and today we're talking about Wayward on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

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• 2:28Linda Holmes?

  Joining me today is Kristin Meinzler. She co-hosts The Knightly on Hatch Plus. Hey, Kristin.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  Hey, Linda. How are you?

• 2:36Linda Holmes?

  I am fine. Also with us is journalist and host of the podcast Seated, Travell Anderson. Welcome back, Travell.

• 2:43Speaker 04

  Hello, hello.

• 2:45Linda Holmes?

  Hello. So, Wayward is a horror thriller about the troubled teen industry. It looks at this reform school called Tall Pines Academy from basically two different angles. We follow two teenage girls, Abby and Lila, played by Sidney Topliff, and Olivia Allen Lind, who end up there as students/inmates. Their parents have been promised that their fairly benign behavioral problems can only be sorted out by the very strict, very secretive school supervised by the Tall Pines boss, Evelyn. Dun dun dun. Evelyn is played by Toni Collette. The show's creator, Mae Martin, plays a young cop named Alex.

• 3:28Linda Holmes?

  He moves to town and joins the local police force. His pregnant wife, Laura, was once a Tall Pines Academy kid herself. She's played by Sarah Gaddin. She remains close to Evelyn, who has gone so far as to set the couple up with a house to live in. Eventually, particularly as the birth of their child approaches, Alex starts to worry about his wife's continuing closeness with the weirdest person he has managed to meet since he started his new job. As Alex settles in, he sees a lot of weird stuff going on, specifically involving kids from the academy. Meanwhile, Lila and Abby are realizing from the inside just how bad it is, from creepy fellow students who have adopted attitudes of total subservience,

• 4:13Linda Holmes?

  to unsettling academy staff who have animal nicknames like Rabbit. Wayward is streaming on Netflix now. This is a lot of television show in eight episodes. Travell, I'm going to start with you. How'd you like it?

• 4:27Speaker 04

  You know, I actually really enjoyed it. And I have to say, I'm not typically a fan of the horror thriller suspense. I'm one of those people with- Really bad anxiety when it comes to those things. But obviously, being able to start and stop on Netflix helped me with this.

• 4:46Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  But it was something that I came to it for Toni Collette to see, you know, the legend do what she does.

• 4:53Linda Holmes?

  Indeed.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  But I also, in the process, fell in love with Mae Martin as an actor and a writer and a creative voice. I really, really enjoyed it. I think it's definitely something that folks should check out for sure.

• 5:06Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, I always think with Netflix, like, you don't have to watch it all in one big binge just because they release it that way.

• 5:13Speaker 04

  Right.

• 5:13Linda Holmes?

  Like, you can watch a little bit and then walk away. I sometimes find that to be the most pleasurable and, as you mentioned, least anxiety-producing way to watch some of these things. Kristin, what did you think of Wayward?

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Well, I just gotta say, you don't have to binge it all at once, but I did it all in two sittings because I really enjoyed the setup of the show. I love any couple coming to a small town and either falling in love, or falling apart, or being haunted, or whatever happens to a couple in a small town. I want to see it.

• 5:46Linda Holmes?

  It's a classic.

• 5:46Speaker 03

  And I especially love the cult-like reformatory school. I loved all of the cast. I was really wowed by Sidney Topliff, who plays Abby. I thought she was quite good. I've always loved Mae Martin. No matter what Mae Martin does, I'm in. And of course Toni Collette, as Travell was saying, like, yeah, Toni Collette. But I will confess, I was a tiny bit confused at the beginning about whether we were dealing with multiple timelines. I was a little confused with the kids with the school versus the couple moving into the town. I was confused about a couple of different things, like, I don't think I totally, by the end, understood all the toads.

• 6:21Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  There's a lot of mention of toads in this, a lot of sightings of toads. And I do wish that our main protagonist, Alex, was More fierce, less timid, less reactionary and more kick ass. I just, oh, there are so many points where I'm like, Alex, be kick ass. Come on, do it.

• 6:40Linda Holmes?

  I get that. It's interesting because I really liked this as a mood piece. I like the beginning when you're getting to know the kids and you're getting to know Alex and Laura. And certainly when they're introducing Evelyn, Evelyn rides this weird like semi recumbent bike thing and it's so perfect because it's so creepy and yet it's so dorky. Evelyn wears these big tinted sunglasses. It's very like, on the one hand, it's all very innocuous and it also just comes off very creepy. And I really like how they set it up. I do think that like, if you're the kind of person who is very annoyed that on Lost, they never explained like who was shooting at the outrigger. I think there will be parts of this show where you'll get to the end and be like, wait a minute, you didn't answer all my questions.

• 7:25Linda Holmes?

  I think as a mood thing, it's extremely effective. And I think as getting the general sense of like how fearful these kids at this reformatory school are and how, you know, punitive the school is. And obviously this in a way connects back to some documentary pieces that are on Netflix and elsewhere about this quote unquote troubled teen industry and how awful it is. It's not a lot better than, you know, how it's portrayed here in the more straightforward elements. So I really liked the setup of it and the mood of it. I think I have maybe in common with Kristen, a sense that like, I got to the end and there were some pieces that I didn't think they ever really explained, like, why is that in

• 8:07Linda Holmes?

  there? Because when you're setting up a creepy situation, you obviously use a lot of things where it's like, ooh, look at this. Isn't that creepy? I do think you get to the end, it's like, sorry, what were the toads about? Like, I get most of this. What was the situation with the toads? Travell, how did you feel about Alex as a main character?

• 8:24Speaker 04

  You know, I appreciated the kind of meek approach to that character, you know, like there absolutely were moments where I was like, okay, stand up, like, you know, fight back. Like do the thing.

• 8:41Linda Holmes?

  Yes.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  But I think it was a great character for me to be the one introducing us to this, you know, cult, introducing us to the various, you know, eccentricities of this world. And I also think that Mae Martin, I've known them primarily as a comedian. And so I think there are these like small subtle like comedic moments.

• 9:06Linda Holmes?

  Hundred percent.

• 9:06Speaker 04

  That flourishes that pop up that they carry off and embody, you know, so well at many moments.

• 9:14Linda Holmes?

  Yeah. You know, I share that feeling of like, you gotta get out of here. You gotta do something. This is all super terrible. But that's every like horror protagonist in some ways. And I look at this character, especially since he's in law enforcement. Like he's not necessarily trained to immediately be like, I'm instantly gonna just assume that everything is totally out of hand. He's got that like sense of there is order and I can restore order in an ordinary way. I was also really interested in the fact that Alex is trans. They talk about a couple of times and it certainly is acknowledged and it's part of the story. But it's interesting to me how it almost seems to play into the sense that when he first gets

• 9:58Linda Holmes?

  to this town, he has this feeling like, almost like maybe the people are like too accepting. Or like, like he doesn't really trust them, which is a weird like feeling. But that's kind of the vibe that I got is that he's almost like uneasy about how much everybody's like, I don't know, all completely on board.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  But there are, everyone is also like very much so trying to let him know that they're on board. You know what I mean?

• 10:26Linda Holmes?

  Exactly. Yes.

• 10:26Speaker 04

  There's a moment where the sheriff or whoever the main cop person is, right? Is introducing him and does this quick stumble, you know, into the correct pronoun.

• 10:39Speaker 05

  Oh, let me introduce you to everybody. Hey, everyone gather around. This is Alex Dempsey. I want you to make him feel very, very welcome.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  Right, there are these other moments where Alex's partner, their alarm goes off for them to take their shot and they're like, yep, same time every day. You know, these affirming moments that I think pop up. But I also, I'm not sure that if you are just, you know, coming to this randomly and you don't know much about who Mae Martin is outside of this, I think those are like storytelling inclusion elements that I found surprising, even as someone who is attuned to them specifically. And I thought that was beautiful.

• 11:28Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, I think it works both as a piece of storytelling and also there are moments where it has almost the get out, I would have voted for Obama three times, like where there's that thing of like, okay, is this person trying a little too hard to make sure that I know how like comfortable they are in a way that can come off uncomfortable? But as you say, it's also just a way of storytelling and including in the story that this is part of Alex's, you know, life and story.

• 11:56Speaker 03

  But also, it does hearken back to what is a troubled teen school fixing. And in a lot of cases, a troubled teen school is fixing a kid who does not conform to certain standards of straightness or behavior, or again, straightness. And the fact that one of Laura's friends that she went to Tall Pines Academy with is somebody who is gay but is celibate. And that's something that's touched on a few different times on the show, like who's gay, who's not gay, who's bisexual, and is that really what makes them quote unquote troubled to their parents? So it makes sense to me that there would be a certain kind of, I don't know if acceptance is the right word, but understanding that this is

• 12:41Speaker 03

  part of our town. This is part of the population we have here.

• 12:44Linda Holmes?

  Especially since the population is so largely made up of people who have gone through this school, like so much of the town is adjacent to the school in various ways. But I think you're exactly right, that it's very clear that the kids who are coming there. I mean, some of them are in more, you know, crime adjacent trouble, I guess I would say, like they've done more petty crime or whatever. But absolutely, some of them are just kids who aren't turning out the way that their parents hoped they would. Or, you know, honestly, in the case of Lila, she's partly there because her parents have never been capable of giving her any kind of support or life. And so she is the one who ends up being treated like she's troubled.

• 13:27Speaker 03

  And she's bisexual, too, which is-

• 13:29Linda Holmes?

  And she's bisexual.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. I also just have to say, as far as the troubled teen oeuvre, when Abby is first taken from her bedroom off to the school, did you guys read Paris Hilton's memoir or watch the documentary about her troubled teen-

• 13:45Linda Holmes?

  I've seen a couple of documentaries. I think that's pretty true to what happens-

• 13:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:49Linda Holmes?

  -in a lot of these places. They do come and take kids in the middle of the night.

• 13:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, it seemed so spot on. It was like a kidnapping, and that's what happened to Paris Hilton. And I think some people watching the show might think, oh, it is a horror movie. But that's pretty much spot on with what-

• 14:03Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  -people have experienced.

• 14:05Speaker 04

  And I also think, as we're talking about, you know, the young folks, right, in this project, they're all doing great work. Like, I feel like they all, you know, rise to the occasion of the angst that we want of, you know, you're playing opposite Toni Collette, okay, you better bring it. And they do. And I think they help lock you in to this kind of, you mentioned watching it in two sittings, right? They kind of help lock you into this world and the anxieties and the fears with also unique character points for each of them that I thought was beautifully done.

• 14:47Linda Holmes?

  Yeah. Well, the girl who plays Stacy, who is initially Abby's roommate-

• 14:52Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:53Linda Holmes?

  You know, every movie or show about a facility has the overly cheerful roommate. I feel like that is a classic. When I saw Stacy in this, I just thought, oh, this is that. Except this is a spin on the overly cheerful roommate-

• 15:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:10Linda Holmes?

  -that winds up playing into the sort of cult element. But I think that kid is just unsettling. And I think that's exactly what that part calls for, is the performance in that that is unsettling.

• 15:26Linda Holmes?

  Because I looked at her and I was, you just keep going. Ooh, ooh.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, but you don't want to look away at the same time.

• 15:33Linda Holmes?

  No, yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  She's definitely a highlight for sure.

• 15:35Linda Holmes?

  She does it perfect. That actresses is sold RDs. I feel like I should say her name since I was just praising her work.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's great, but I agree with Travell. All the kids are so good. They hold their own. They are not a monolith. They each have their own backstory, their own personality, and their own fears and strengths. And the show really illustrates how in a lot of ways, the reform school is making them criminal in a way they never were before the school. And the only job to survive is to put on a happy face and pretend you don't have pain, even as maybe you're becoming more and more troubled while you're there.

• 16:14Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, I gotta say, it's remarkable how much charisma it takes to be in the Toni Collette part in something like this and in some ways be doing a lot of what people expect you to do, like eventually giving very philosophical arguments for why you're harming people and very like, but this is all for your own good. And there's, there's not a ton in this character that I think is hugely surprising from a script perspective. I don't think what you eventually learn about her is very different from what you would maybe as a person who's seen a lot of TV and movies say, oh, she's probably going to turn out to say a lot of stuff like this and a lot of stuff like this.

• 16:57Linda Holmes?

  But the range of Toni Collette is such that she can bring a very odd kind of horror sensibility to this as with the horror that she's done in the past. You know, you're hereditary and all that stuff, which I only know from seeing little parts of it because I'm not going to watch the whole thing because it's scary. But even like across her career, when you've seen her, you know, she's been in dramas. She's been in Knives Out in which she's so funny. She does a little bit of everything. And here she really has to be the center of gravity.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I love what you said about her tricycle that she rides around in her glasses, because you're this dynamic leader, but you're such a dork.

• 17:43Linda Holmes?

  Exactly. Exactly. Many charismatic leaders are also dweebs. Like, that is true.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  I mean, she is the reason why I think, you know, her face, right? Evelyn's face is the poster image for this. And I do think that she's definitely the center, definitely the sun. But there's so much going on around her, right? That I also think is what's going to keep people. You know what I mean? Especially if you think that she's doing something she always does, for example.

• 18:16Linda Holmes?

  No, I don't think she's doing anything she always does. She's just bringing, I think, a sort of, like I said, there's a charisma that it takes to play a role and convince people that all these other people who work for her and this entire town would essentially be in her thrall. It takes a lot of charisma just to get people to follow you, whether it is for great reasons or less great reasons. But I am happy that Mae Martin created this, because as Travell talked about, I'm also familiar with them mostly from comedy and from either stand-up, or they had a really nice role in Flight Attendant with Kaley Cuoco.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  That's how I got introduced to Mae Martin. I was like, ooh, who is this?

• 18:57Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Just jumps off the screen in that show.

• 19:00Linda Holmes?

  Super, super good in The Flight Attendant and have made other shows and other projects and stuff like that. But I think, like, I really like this as a kind of a creative, I guess it's not the most obvious thing for Mae Martin to do next, and that's why I sort of dig it, you know?

• 19:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so, "The Song in the Pines." Were you all familiar with that song before this? Okay, so I was familiar with it. Dolly Parton sings a version of it. I love Dolly. Loretta Lynn sings a version of it. I'm just gonna recommend to the listeners, if they don't want any spoilers and you don't know the song "In the Pines," don't listen to it before this. Because the lyrics actually pretty much tell the whole story and give you spoilers.

• 19:43Linda Holmes?

  Oh.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  So.

• 19:44Linda Holmes?

  Oh.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 19:44Linda Holmes?

  Well, now I gotta go listen to it. It is a beautiful song.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  I'm like, oh, I need to pay attention.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, but if you don't know the song, that's fine. But if you do know the song, just don't think about the lyrics. Don't think about the lyrics.

• 19:57Linda Holmes?

  But maybe after you watch the show, as we are now.

• 20:01Speaker 03

  Yes, it's a little spooky and it kind of gives away the story.

• 20:05Linda Holmes?

  All right. Love it. And I will say, I do think they leave the door open enough that if they decided to come back, they could come back. But if it didn't happen, you wouldn't feel like they didn't finish the story.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  But if they do come back, I want to find out about those toads.

• 20:19Linda Holmes?

  I agree.

• 20:20Speaker 04

  There is a lot of opportunity left. Absolutely.

• 20:25Linda Holmes?

  All right. Tell us what you think about Wayward. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/PCHH. That brings us to the end of our show. Travell Anderson, Kristin Minzer, thank you so much for being here to talk to me about toads.

• 20:37Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 20:40Linda Holmes?

  And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link. It's in our show notes. This episode was produced by Carly Rubin and Mike Katzif and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes. We will see you all next time.

• 21:17Speaker 00

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