335: You Got One Shot at This Gig, So Go Out and Live. W/ Lance Mann.

0:00:00 - Opening :005:51 - Lance Mann. How to stay on THE PATH. Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 335 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:08Jocko Willink?

  When the Navy's academics had arrived in 1955 to observe UDT training, their purpose had been to validate the course's individual selection tests. The soft sand runs, the ocean swims, the harassment of hell week, and short of invalidating any of those to develop what they called realistic selection standards that would reduce the Navy, what the Navy admitted was the course's excessive attrition. Subjecting students to a battery of personality tests and classifying their individual traits, age, education, intelligence, and so on, the academics hoped not only to predict a candidate's likelihood of success in training,

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  but also his success in an actual underwater demolition team. In the course of these assessments, they learned that students below the age of 21 were 8% more likely to fail, roughly the same rate as high school dropouts, while students from broken homes were just as likely to graduate as anyone else. Based on the number of times a student had voluntarily visited the dispensary, assessors determined that a candidate in moderate health who, quote, "minimize the psychological importance of pain, fatigue, and intense discomfort", stood a much higher chance of success than, quote, "the most physically fit who were overly concerned about their injuries."

• 1:38Jocko Willink?

  The least common traits among successful frogmen seemed to be restraint, thoughtfulness, sociability, and cautiousness. The most common were responsibility, emotional stability, original thinking, objectivity, and most of all, masculinity.

• 2:02Jocko Willink?

  Later studies had gone on to test a variety of variables, including the benefits of wheat germ in a student's diet, which proved particularly negligible, and a series of Rorschach tests and psychiatric interviews to determine the effect of sexuality on a candidate's success or failure. Successful frogmen, said the Sex Reports author, appear to require this specific, rather masculine and adventurous occupation with all its self-destructive and masochistic implications because, and this was just the author's speculation of their magical attraction to the depth of the sea and the security of the womb, and an unconscious motivation to prove their masculinity

• 2:46Jocko Willink?

  coupled with a fear of involvement with women. Setting aside the psychoanalyst's tendency to project their own insecurities onto their subject, the Navy had not been able to argue with the UDT's results. "I have never met a group of more self-reliant, hell-for-leather characters," wrote reporter Bill Stapleton after accompanying a UDT to St. Thomas in the Virgin Islands in 1955. Besides their typical reconnaissance exercises, submarine lockouts, and tests with miniature submersibles, the frogmen had also salvaged a 50-foot yacht from a reef, twisted the tails of passing sharks, and, when an American sailor had disappeared into a harbor on a

• 3:29Jocko Willink?

  moonless night, had commandeered a truck, roared to the wharf's edge, and, as if they had been scouting the contours of an enemy beach, dove online until they found the drowned man. In their free time, they spearfished, drank untold amounts of beer, erected beachside bonfires, and in overflowing pots of seawater and vinegar, boiled lobsters and astonished the superstitious natives by broiling barracuda steaks. "You eat barracuda, barracuda eat you," they had said. "Promises," replied a frogman, "nothing but promises."

• 4:07Jocko Willink?

  So exclusive were the UDTs, said one observer, that even rank meant nothing to them. When seen in their standard swim trunks and knife belts, surrounded by charts and diving equipment, and asked by passerby's if they were indeed in the Navy. The frogmen would invariably reply, regardless of the askers' rank, "Nope, we're all in UDT."

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  So that right there is an excerpt from a incredible book. The book is called By Water Beneath the Waves. It's written by a former SEAL named Ben Milligan. And it's, it's an outstanding history of where the SEAL teams come from. But that little excerpt describing what a UDT man was like back in the day, that assessment is from 1955. So at that time, there were no SEAL teams. But, but the spirit, the soul of the frogman was there in full form. And this is where the modern day SEALs come from. Those were our roots. Those were our forefathers. And it is an honor to have one of those old school

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  frogmen with us today to tell us about his experiences in the underwater demolition teams, what he learned there, and how he applied those lessons throughout the rest of his life. His name is Lance Mann, a UDT frogman, a waterman, a surfer, an entrepreneur, a lifeguard, and a damn good example of how to live life. Lance, thank you for joining us.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here. Appreciate it.

• 5:54Jocko Willink?

  That, that assessment in 1955, I feel like I know half those guys that he's talking about. Like, these are the guys I grew up with in the teams.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  And pretty interesting that it just, there's something about it that stays. Like, there's something about that old frogman that stays.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Well, and I think what the, in the training and the, I guess, the buzz, if you will, and then the, the subsequent, I don't even know what, what all you do to become a SEAL today. But they...

• 6:31Speaker 01

  I'm always struck by how

• 6:36Speaker 01

  how much a part of the old days is inculcated into the modern day trainee and the buzz candidate.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  And it always catches me off guard. I mean, I love the teams and when I was about

• 6:56Speaker 01

  I read something like that about five years subsequent to that, to when that was written. And I think Reader's Digest had a deal in 1961 or something like that. And I was a senior in college and I I was reading that puppy and I said, you know, and I I didn't really even want to go in the military, but when I put that down, I said, well, if I have to go in the military, I'm going to do that because that sounds really cool. And so it it resonated with me and it's interesting to me that it seems like a big part of the SEAL training.

• 7:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's, it's great. I mean, as an old guy that

• 7:47Speaker 01

  when I meet guys and when they hear these guys that could do so much more than I could for crying out loud. And then they're being, they're giving me credit for something that, man, I don't know if I had that in me, but by gum, I'll take it. So, so thank you.

• 8:05Jocko Willink?

  Well, let's, let's, let's get there. Let's go all the way back to the beginning to where, you know, to where you grew up and how you grew up, just to kind of get a feel for where you came from. So when were you born?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  I was born in 1939 in

• 8:24Speaker 01

  So my dad, you know, he was, he was a hardworking guy. He had just got finished with graduate school and he was, he was starting his corporate career and as a consequence, uh, we moved a couple of times, but then when the second world war broke out, he, he signed up, uh, with the Navy. He was a navigator, uh, in, in, uh, I don't, I can't, I don't know what.

• 8:52Jocko Willink?

  So you were born in thirty nine.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Thirty nine.

• 8:55Jocko Willink?

  Here's your dad, a couple of years into his corporate career, maybe a year or two.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:59Jocko Willink?

  And that was just what guys were doing.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:02Jocko Willink?

  War broke out, didn't matter what you were doing. You had a family, you got young kids.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:06Jocko Willink?

  You're going.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  You're going. Or, or you, or you were, or you had some kind of occupation where they needed you in it and so they didn't want you in the military. They wanted you to keep going with whatever you were doing.

• 9:20Jocko Willink?

  Do you have any idea why he wanted to go in the Navy?

• 9:23Speaker 01

  I don't know why dad did that, but, uh, because of that, we moved everywhere. We lived in Hollywood, Florida. We lived in, uh, uh, San Francisco and we were all over the place and we must've moved. And by the time I was about four or five years old and started going to school, I think I had a, went to about five kindergartens. And then, uh, and then about three or four first grades and then second grade, I went down to one and then third, and then I went to the same school for third, fourth and a month and a half of fifth grade. So I, I moved around a lot.

• 10:06Jocko Willink?

  And your dad was in the Navy the whole time? Is that what was going on?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Well, when, uh, he, he got, let me see, in nineteen forty-five, I was six, so I was in first grade and that's when the number of schools that I matriculated and kind of tapered down a little bit. And so we settled down, but.

• 10:25Jocko Willink?

  Did he get out of the Navy in forty-five after the war?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. He, uh, he went and he became an administrative assistant to a US Senator from New Jersey that, uh, knew him as a young kid, uh, going to, uh, business school. And so then we kind of settled down in the DC area for a couple of years and then moved to up around New York.

• 10:49Jocko Willink?

  And what were you, what were you into when you were a kid? What were you doing?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  No, nothing very worthwhile. I, I, it was one of those deals where you lived in a neighborhood and uh, your, your baseball team might have thirteen guys on it, you know, and uh, that's the way it was growing up and, you know, like in, in New Jersey and a town outside of New York City and then uh, just a bunch of kids getting together, doing, doing sports stuff in Porter Park, I remember in Montclair and uh, and so we did that kind of thing, nothing too organized, but then um.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  And, and what about by the time you got into high school? Where'd you go to high school?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Well, I, it's funny, uh, I went to a school in Montclair in fifth grade and it was um, and I met some good friends there and the kids um, uh, all my buddies ended up going to um, I think it was Montclair Academy for sixth grade up and uh, my parents said, well, no, you're gonna go to Hillside Junior High School instead. So I said, geez, okay. Uh, so I, I did, but I, I, by the time I was in eighth or ninth grade, it be, it

• 12:13Speaker 01

  became clear to me why I didn't go to the private school in sixth grade. That's because my parents were probably saving up to send me off to uh, boarding school in New England. And so I, I went to high school at Deerfield Academy and, and Western Massachusetts.

• 12:30Jocko Willink?

  And so that, is that like one of the old school, like all boys prep schools?

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, coat and tie.

• 12:36Jocko Willink?

  Coat and tie.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, no girls. Yeah, yeah. It was gnarly. But uh, yeah, it was um, it was, it was a great school. Uh, it was probably a lot better school than I was a student, but uh, big thing. Thank goodness for uh, for swimming because I joined the swim team and I, I wasn't a great swimmer, but I was pretty good and uh. And luckily, I had some, you know, so I felt at home at Deerfield because of swimming and not because of the academics too much. I mean, I got through them, but it was a struggle.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  And I don't think I embarrassed my parents by, but I got through okay.

• 13:25Jocko Willink?

  And this is, so this is the, what, late 50s?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  It's good. I was there, what, in the fall of 54, and I graduated in 1957. And then went to college in 1958.

• 13:40Jocko Willink?

  Did you have a car?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  In between, I got a car in 19, well, no, not until I left Deerfield.

• 13:50Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was it. See, some of the kids, some of those kids, they graduate and they get a new car.

• 13:58Jocko Willink?

  It just seemed like cars back then were so epic.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:03Jocko Willink?

  And even though cars, I think the car, I mean, even today in America, we kind of, we definitely focus on cars. And that's usually the biggest purchase a person makes until they're maybe 30 and they finally buy a house. But up until then, it's like, what car are you getting?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:20Jocko Willink?

  And back then, it seemed like it was even more so.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Oh, it was unbelievable. I remember this guy, Joe Willard, in my class, and he's really a neat guy. And I, I remember when graduation weekend came along and he was going down Albany Road in Deerfield, which is, you know, just a kind of a country town kind of a place. And he had this, this 50-foot-long gray 98 Oldsmobile, and there was Joe, man. And it was perfect. And he was cruising down there waving and...

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  King of the world.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  King of the world, yeah, yeah.

• 14:59Jocko Willink?

  And where'd you end up going to college?

• 15:03Speaker 01

  I, I ended up going to Tulane University in New Orleans. And it was a, I don't, you know, you gotta, you know, there is a, you know, when you're religious, you know, they're saying, you know, hey, God has a plan for you. And so all you need to do is just lighten up and go along with the program. And I certainly didn't have that kind of...

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Oh, spiritual significance inculcated in me at that point. However, you talk about a guy who had no clue what was going on, but somebody must have because when I left Deerfield, I think I was the only kid in my class that had no college that was going to take me. And so my parents got me into this great college in Wisconsin called Lawrence College at the time, and they were good friends with the president of the college. So he says, yeah, okay, yeah.

• 16:05Jocko Willink?

  A mercy.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:07Jocko Willink?

  Mercy admission.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  So I went there and it turned out that we went down for to New Orleans because I had an aunt that lived there. We went there for spring break and I looked around and I said, and they said, I said, is there, there's a college around here, you know? And sure enough, there was a Tulane University. And luckily, I had an uncle that was Tulane at that time. Well, I think always has always been known for its medical school. And I had an uncle that was a doctor and he was pretty prominent around New Orleans. And so he got me into Tulane, you know, as a transfer student.

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  When you got down to New, was New Orleans, so this is, so now we're talking 58, 59, maybe?

• 17:00Speaker 01

  In the fall of 59.

• 17:03Jocko Willink?

  Cause you're, I mean, when you got out to Wisconsin, was that just like cold that you just thought to yourself, I gotta get out of Wisconsin?

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Well, I, yeah, I, and also my, by this time, my parents had moved there and I love my parents. We were close and everything, but I'd already done time at a boarding school. And so I was away from home. So living with my parents just wasn't part of the program anymore, you know? And so I thought, gee, I gotta, I gotta get on my own here. So I, and that really was a big part of going to Tulane. And I was really stoked with New Orleans and the South.

• 17:43Jocko Willink?

  The first time that I went to New Orleans, we were, I was in a SEAL platoon. I was a new guy and we were flying to go to Herbert Field in Florida. And for some reason, the air crew. Had a planned stop from San Diego. We were flying to Horbert Field, Florida. And for some reason, we had to stop for a night in New Orleans. It's like for some unknown reason, right?

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Couldn't have been playing on Texas.

• 18:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a Tuesday night and all the guys are like, oh, we're going to Bourbon Street. And I'm thinking it's Tuesday night and of course, I'm not even old enough to drink. So I'm kind of just going along with whatever's going along. And I thought to myself, well, Tuesday night, maybe we'll go get some dinner or whatever. I just wasn't really expecting much. We got down to Bourbon Street on a Tuesday night. It was complete and utter mayhem. It was chaos. There was people drinking, you know, girls taking their freaking clothes off. It was wild. It was insane.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Wonderful.

• 18:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. How does that? So was that kind of the gig when you showed up there in 1958? Was it similar? Was it that much of a party town back then too?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. And I, I was pretty straight arrow and I think I had my.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Well, I had my first beer, I think in my freshman year up in Wisconsin and there and had, I had great friends. And that's in my fraternity there. And so we drank a little bit of beer, but I really, it, I kind of honed it to a fine art.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, New Orleans is, it's, it's, I think it's, you know, I've been around, I've moved a lot and I, I, about five or six years ago, I was thinking my favorite city in the, in the United States, it has to be New Orleans. I was only there for college and then a few years later, we did some business down there. But yeah, there's something very, very unique about New Orleans.

• 19:48Jocko Willink?

  It's wild. So then my, my platoon commander, this was also in my first platoon, I think on our way back or something. We have another weird, random stop in New Orleans, but he went to Tulane. Oh, so he made inroads and we showed up at like a party where some kind of fraternity part, I don't even know what it was. But we show up to this, this place and you know, it's like a platoon of seals and all these people, all these girls are there. It's just wild. It's wild. And I remember for a long time, for a long time, when I was a young, single guy, my favorite two cities in America

• 20:26Jocko Willink?

  were New Orleans and Lake Tahoe. Cause Lake Tahoe, Lake Tahoe is also just wild. And uh, yeah, so it was like that in the 50s too, huh?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. It uh, and you know, we did, did all the French Quarter stuff and then uh, and but the fraternity parties were a big deal. And uh, yeah, it was, it was pretty wild and crazy. I, I although I must say it was probably as much of a college experience as it was a city experience, but, but we would, would spend time downtown in, in the quarter and stuff. And usually, you know, if you're doing stuff and then you kind of finish up down in the quarter and somehow you get home.

• 21:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, what are you studying when you're going to college?

• 21:18Speaker 01

  I studied uh, psychology and then minored in English. And

• 21:23Jocko Willink?

  Were you doing with that with any kind of intent? Or is that just sort of like how it turned out?

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Oh, there was a lot of intent because it looked to me like psychology was probably the easiest subject I got to figure. And uh, and then tangentially, I, I started doing the English thing and I minored in that. And then I, I, I became really interested in school. I read a fair amount and uh, and I remember graduating with a degree in psychology and minor in English. And I, I remember uh, as I

• 22:05Speaker 01

  When I started thinking about it, I really wished I'd majored in English and then minored in something else. Psychology wasn't, it wasn't as developed as a field of study as it is today to so many people. It probably was, but it just, it just didn't reach down to the rest of the world as it seems to now, because my kids have studied it and boy, they're learning things that we weren't even on the map, you know, when I was going through. But the English, you know, I kind of wanted to major in psychology, partly just to learn

• 22:44Speaker 01

  about all the crazy people, but when I was reading all these novels and books, that's where the crazy people were. So I had plenty of that. So, so English was good. And, you know, I'd say that I'd recommend that as a major for anybody.

• 23:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So as you're going through college, are you thinking you're going to get a job as a psychologist? Or you, what are you thinking your future's going to be? Because you said you weren't really that interested in the military at that, when you first started.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no. The only reason, in those days, if you're a guy, a big part of your life from about sixteen, seventeen years old on, is you got to deal with the draft. Because if you don't, if you don't deal, if you're not proactive with the military, you're going to get drafted and you're going to go in the army.

• 23:35Jocko Willink?

  Even in 1958?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep.

• 23:38Jocko Willink?

  No kidding?

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yep. And so I knew I had, you know, we had ROTC kids in my fraternity, you know, and they'd do the ROTC deal. And so, you know, there was a, I mean, there was an underlying concern or consider, the military was very much a part of your life if you're a guy. And so you're going to have to either be proactive, go into ROTC or OCS if you wanted to be an officer, or, or get married. And marriage was a...

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Was a kind of a ticket out of avoiding the military, you know, and I think a lot of guys did that.

• 24:21Jocko Willink?

  Filled with regret, all of them.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I mean, you still think the military's tough.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Take a, how about a wife?

• 24:33Speaker 01

  So, yeah, you gotta, I always thought that was a bad choice, not, not, not forever, but when you're in your seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty year old, it's too early to sign up for that. So you, so anyhow, yeah, I, I knew I had to do something about the military and I, I remember talking to some guy who was a pilot, Navy pilot, and I thought, gee, maybe I'll be a pilot. And then that article about UDT came up and, and I remember this guy named King Mallory, he was thinking he's gonna go into UDT and we were, we were on the swim team at Tulane and.

• 25:14Jocko Willink?

  Well, so you were like a legit good swimmer.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Oh, no, yeah, again, like I say, God had a plan. We were just starting the swim team, so we, we could take anybody, so there, there I was, uh, at Tulane and we, we did form the very first swim, swim team that the Tulane had, so we.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  So I guess you made the team.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  And I, yeah, well, besides, because in order to travel, you had to drive your own car and I had a car, so, so we, I made the swim team.

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  And what did this, what did this Reader's Digest article say that really kinda stood out to you?

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  And I believe, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that Admiral Richards talked about the same thing. Wasn't Admiral Richards, I think it was, he also saw a Reader's Digest article and said.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  It's, it's, I mean, people, my, it's, everybody knows about that. If you're in the teams, I, I, I'm sure everybody has, is aware of that article, whether they read it or not, I don't know, but it, yeah, it was, it was well-known, everybody.

• 26:26Jocko Willink?

  So what did it say in there that, that struck you as?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Well, one thing, it really sounded like it wasn't very military. You didn't have to be that organized, you didn't have to shine your shoes, you know, you didn't have to do all that stuff, which appealed to me tremendously, so. And I remember one line in it and it, um, I didn't, it said that I, something like this, that a frogman on the beach in his swim trunks with his K-bar in his hand, uh, is one of the deadliest weapons in the military, something like that. And, and, and that's really dramatic and everything.

• 27:11Jocko Willink?

  Hook, line and sinker.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and I, I didn't exactly buy that, but I liked the spirit of it. And I think as you, in the passage that you read, that there is a spirit of, you know what, I'm, I'm, I'm in the military, I'm part of a group, but I'm my own man. I'm, I'm, I'm still who I am and I'm independent. And you're, you're loyal to your soul, you're loyal to, uh, what you really want to do. It just, it just so happens you're in this organization where everybody else feels the same way. And if you don't feel that way, you probably won't get through training, you know? There'll be, so it was, uh, uh,

• 27:55Speaker 01

  there was something, something rebellious about it. Here you are going in the military, but yet you're going in, you're kind of backing into it, man. He says, I'll go in the military, but this is how I want to do it. And I think, I think that was part of the, I think that was part of the psychology of, of it that caused it, people, at least it's, it's, it's what I liked about it.

• 28:19Jocko Willink?

  There was like a recruiting poster, a recruiting, yeah, some kind of poster that I think they had for Project Delta in Vietnam. And it was Charlie Beckwith said something along the lines of, I promise you medals or a body bag or both volunteer here. But I've also seen a similar thing for UDTs in World War II. I haven't been able to figure out the source of it. But it was something along the lines of no KP duty, no uniform, no standing in line at the chow hall. Join the Suicide Squad, UDT.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:59Jocko Willink?

  Like a way to recruit guys, man.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:02Jocko Willink?

  Young, young guys read that kind of stuff and they get all kinds of fired up for it.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Sure. And, uh, yeah, they have to have, they have to want to take a risk too.

• 29:13Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep. Uh, so what was the process for actually joining? How did your dad feel about you going to the UDTs?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  He was sold for it.

• 29:22Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, yeah. Yeah, my dad was, he was a great cheerleader and, uh, yeah, he, we, you know, like swimming, you know, and he would, he liked to drink a lot too and, and boy, after, uh, you know, we're at some cocktail party or something, boy, you know, by the end of that night, I, he had me going to the Olympics. He had, you know, it was awesome. But, but I, I didn't measure up, but it was, uh, yeah, he, he was all for it.

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  And did he, did he tell you anything about the UDTs in World War II?

• 29:58Speaker 01

  He didn't, no, no. And, uh, even when I joined, uh, he didn't, he probably didn't know what they, much about it. He was in the Pacific and, uh, he was in an airplane and I don't, you know, and I, I don't, I mean, the UDTs certainly were, made a contribution during the war, but I don't know if everybody in the military was aware of what, what all they did. But I, he was stoked with, uh, me joining it. He, I think he could see why, um, why it appealed to me instead of, you know, it's something that is a little more organized. And, uh, but it, um, yeah, he was, he was all for it.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  I felt like he really was supportive of it.

• 30:46Jocko Willink?

  And then how'd you get your commission? Did you go to OCS or were you in ROTC the whole time?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny, I, I don't want to digress, but I, I really didn't know what, what to do about the military up until.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  About the 10th of September. And I had, I had a choice of either going six months in the Coast Guard. And then three, you know, like six years of reserves, weekend duty. Cause that was really the easiest way out. You just do Coast Guard. And then, then you do the reserves. Or go up to OCS. And I said, well, if it's OCS. Shit, it's the 10th of September. I think they start the 15th. And I, so I, I was standing on the courthouse steps there and I just about flipped a coin. And I came up OCS. I said, well, fuck, I better get going here. Cause I'm driving in my 1957 Volkswagen.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  And so I made it. So that's how I ended up going to OCS.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  Where was OCS? Was it Rhode Island or was it?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, in Newport.

• 31:53Jocko Willink?

  And, and when you showed up to OCS, is that, was that run by Marine Corps drill instructors?

• 31:59Speaker 01

  No, whatever Navy guys. Or how I showed up, just, it's a good story because it shows you, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. So I pulled in the parking lot. I had my clothes hung in the backseat of the, of my car. So that the Volkswagen window was my, my blue, my preppy blue blazer was up against the window. And so I closed the car and I thought, well, I tell you what, I, I go, I'll go, I'll park here. Now go and I'll check into my room. Then I go into town and get a bite to eat. Well, I go in there. The next time I saw that car was about six weeks later.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  And I wasn't going anywhere, man. And so I, I welcome to the military. I said, geez, this is. Now I know why I never wanted to go in the military. You can't do anything. So I get back out to my car, my first day of liberty, after six weeks, and I was gonna put my blue blazer on. However, that portion of the navy blue blazer that was up against the window had been exposed to the sun for six weeks. And it, and navy blue blazers exposed to the sun, it turns pink. So I had this, half my blazer was pink. So anyhow, that's how, that's, that was kind of my introduction. When I realized that, hey, you know what?

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not in charge of my life anymore. So that was, welcome to the military.

• 33:34Jocko Willink?

  Did you know you were going UDT when you went to OCS? Was it some kind of contract? Was it like pre-designated? Or did they just tell you need to take a test or something when you got there?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  No, I, I had no idea. I, I, I didn't know it was an option. And I, I think it, it was not an option at that point. And I think you had to do a year in the fleet and then you could sign up for UDT. But that was, see, this was getting in towards, uh, um, sixty-two. And I think whether we knew it or not, Vietnam was cooking up pretty good. And that's when Kennedy was president. And so the needs for special warfare was, was becoming more paramount at that point. And so during, actually, it was during our class, uh, they opened it up.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  Hey, if you want to go directly into UDT from OCS, you may. So I was on that like a tramp on a hot muffin. I said, gotta get there.

• 34:38Jocko Willink?

  So, did you take a screening test or something? Or did you just volunteer?

• 34:42Speaker 01

  You had a, uh, I think you had to hold your breath a certain length. And then there was another thing that you had to do. You had to go in a, was it in a chamber? And they pressurized you down to sixty feet or something like that. And I remember that, um, because I couldn't get my, one of my ears to clear when I was down there. And, uh, and it just, I ended up bursting the eardrum. But I didn't tell anybody about it because I knew then, so I'm one of those gray hogs out there. That's where I'd end up. So I, uh... I I got through it and they let me in and uh and boy, I was really stoked to get,

• 35:25Speaker 01

  you know, to get the get a chance to go into UDT training.

• 35:28Jocko Willink?

  Was there even any, I'm I'm gonna assume there was no UDT people at OCS. They must have, but did they just look at you like you were a crazy guy for wanting to go to that?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I was the only guy in, I think I was the only guy in my class.

• 35:40Jocko Willink?

  I mean, even up until like the eighties, officers that were gonna be SEALs were kinda like you were, you were capping your career. Like, oh, you'll make captain, but you're never gonna be an admiral. You were just kinda, you were, you were, you were taking like a sideline. You were taking a side job that didn't really count to the big Navy. So I imagine in nineteen sixty-two, it must have been just like.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, great point. You know, I I rolled into Coronado, uh, the high, we, there was UDT twelve and UDT eleven there. And then on the east coast, it was twenty-one and twenty-two, I believe. And then the highest ranking officer in, on the west coast was a Mustang commander, and his name was Mac Boynton. And he always smoked a pipe, so we called him Mac the Pipe. And he uh, uh, he was, and he was the highest ranking guy in the, in the teams. And he was, uh, I think second highest ranking person was a, was

• 36:43Speaker 01

  a lieutenant, lieutenant. And then he ended up becoming a lieutenant commander. And then, uh, yeah, it was, it was bitchin'. I mean, it was just not, it was just, just like, you, you just read about it. And, uh, and it just, it had, it was, uh, uh, yeah, well, I was driving, and then when I was driving up Coronado, I got off the ferry boat, and I was driving up Coronado, and the, the sun was going down, and it was.

• 37:09Jocko Willink?

  Was the, the Coronado Bridge wasn't there yet?

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Not yet.

• 37:12Jocko Willink?

  So you're driving up the strand?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Uh, no, you drive, uh, into town, and you catch a ferry boat in, in San Diego.

• 37:19Jocko Willink?

  And had you, you had you driven your VW across country?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:21Jocko Willink?

  What'd you have, a VW Bug?

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, fifty-seven.

• 37:26Jocko Willink?

  What color was it?

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Gold. Called the gold coach.

• 37:30Jocko Willink?

  So you drive this thing across country. Did you do any preparation besides like, hey, you knew how to swim? Good. Did you run or anything like this?

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, they they said running was a big deal. And I remember as I drove, I would check in to a hot towel joint. And then I would run about two or three miles and then go to bed and then um. Did that. And then when I woke up, I ran a couple of miles and go to and then get going. Uh, yeah, I was, I I knew you had to be a fit. And so I was working on that. And I had been since I. Left you left OCS. By the way, when I left OCS, I was in my gold coach. It was February. And um, snowing and I was driving through. I remember driving through Ohio of all places.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  When John Glenn was going around the world or whatever he did, the epic. Space flight that he did. And it was, I was just listening to it on my radio, riveted, you know, it was just fantastic. And uh. So that that's kind of how I got my start from OCS back to.

• 38:39Jocko Willink?

  Was OCS done in six weeks? Or is that just when you forgot your first break?

• 38:43Speaker 01

  When now, uh, it was done.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Let me see, I started in September. So we, yeah, it was it was October, November, December, January. It was about a three or four month program. And uh, and so in February, I was done. I mean, it was, I was commissioned and I was on my way to. Coronado.

• 39:06Jocko Willink?

  Making that big Navy paycheck.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:09Jocko Willink?

  Richest guy in the world.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Driving one of the finest cars, modern day Tesla, you know.

• 39:18Jocko Willink?

  So you, so you're driving out, you drive out and you eventually get to Coronado.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:22Jocko Willink?

  And you say you take the ferry from where? From downtown San Diego?

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:24Jocko Willink?

  Into Coronado?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, downtown, what is that, Seaport Village?

• 39:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, it is Seaport Village now. You get off and you know, you drive into NAB Coronado, you're looking.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:38Jocko Willink?

  What happens when you check in? Is anybody even there?

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, there was Donald Lofflin that was the officer on duty and then this guy, I forgot the name of the other guy that was working with him, but yeah, and he was, again, I, it was just also providential. I mean, Donald Lofflin was this great guy, very encouraging and he said, hey, you know, it's, he says, it's, it's hard, but you're gonna do fine, you know, and a lot of, a lot of, and you know, I could have run into some guys and, oh, man, you're gonna, but this guy, he was, he ended up being a good friend and.

• 40:15Jocko Willink?

  Was he, so he, was he in BUDs or he was already in the teams?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  He was already in the teams.

• 40:20Jocko Willink?

  He was one of the instructors?

• 40:20Speaker 01

  And he was the officer, officer of the day and so he was on the base when I checked in.

• 40:27Jocko Willink?

  And he was cool?

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Really cool.

• 40:29Jocko Willink?

  Just like, oh, you'll, you'll be fine?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:32Jocko Willink?

  Man, that's cool.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really cool, you know, and, and I, I actually, as I think back on who was around in those days, and I, I think most of the guys on the teams would, would have been, you know?

• 40:44Jocko Willink?

  I wish I could say the same. I was talking to one of my buddies that's a master chief now in the teams, he's still in. But he said, he was my roommate, BUDs, he said, when he checked in, he walked in the room, I looked up at him, looked up at him and said, quit now and avoid the rush.

• 41:01Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, I'm sorry, I was such an asshole.

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  That was his welcome aboard. We were laughing so hard that I said that to him. Freaking great guy. We had so many good times, but that was how I introduced myself to him. Why don't you quit now and avoid the rush?

• 41:17Speaker 01

  That's really good, good.

• 41:20Jocko Willink?

  How long did it take from when you checked into BUDs to where you actually got into a class?

• 41:26Speaker 01

  That was good. It was about a month. Uh, we had some kind of course we took. They're just killing time, uh, in building four oh one across the street on the base.

• 41:36Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  And then, uh, UDT was in building two oh eight on, uh, the base side of the amphib base.

• 41:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  And then, and then the teams were, where the teams were.

• 41:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So you have about a month and you're just kind of training, going through whatever kind of course they're putting through, working out.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do. You work out on your own and, uh, I, which was fine. I'd just get up and I'd run, run. I'd run quite a bit.

• 42:05Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Swimming, I, I didn't think was going to be a problem and, uh, but the, the running, you know, I wanted to make sure I could keep up on the run. So, so I did that.

• 42:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you get this, and this is still called UDT R, right?

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, UDT trade. Yeah.

• 42:22Jocko Willink?

  UDT RA, yeah. So it's UDT, it's underwater demolition teams replacement.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Or UDT underwater demolition team training.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  And it's UDT RA. Yeah.

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  And so what class were you in?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Twenty-eight.

• 42:39Jocko Willink?

  So you're in class twenty-eight. Was that a big deal back then? Did you guys make a big deal that you were in class twenty? Wasn't like, you didn't, weren't even thinking about it yet?

• 42:47Speaker 01

  I wasn't even thinking about it. I just wanted to get through the goddamn thing.

• 42:51Jocko Willink?

  Do you guys, did you guys wear, uh, helmet liners like, like we, like I did?

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:57Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So did you put your number, class number on it?

• 42:59Speaker 01

  I don't think we did that, but we, no, I'm sure we didn't.

• 43:04Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Class number wasn't.

• 43:06Jocko Willink?

  Wasn't a big thing yet.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, not yet.

• 43:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So you, do you remember, do you remember when you started? Do you remember your first day of first phase?

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 43:14Jocko Willink?

  So what was that like?

• 43:15Speaker 01

  See, they, they get, they heard, there were fourteen officers that were going to start class twenty-eight.

• 43:20Jocko Willink?

  How many people total?

• 43:21Speaker 01

  And then there were about another eighty enlisted guys total in the very beginning. But the first day of training, they do officers for two weeks. The officers had two weeks of training before the whole class comes together. And the reason was is that you had to get rid of the officers that are going to quit. And, and actually we probably started with about twenty something and we, we did out a number of officers right away, but not too many. I mean.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Certainly, the majority of of the officers remain in the class.

• 43:58Jocko Willink?

  A guy was telling me that um like before Hell Week, they'll have, you know, a class and there'll be whatever, seven officers, ten officers.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:07Jocko Willink?

  And the instructors will say, who who's number one in charge? And the, you know, guy raises his.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:11Jocko Willink?

  This is before Hell Week. They say, who's next in charge? And another guy, who's next in charge? And they'll go to like six deep because the assumption is, man, you're gonna go through all those officers and they're gonna be gone, bye bye.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  They get a good look at them now, man, because they're they're gonna be history.

• 44:28Jocko Willink?

  So they so the so the officers spent some time, two weeks, they're weeding out some of those guys. And they weeded it down to how many officers?

• 44:37Speaker 01

  I think there were about eight of us.

• 44:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so what were you guys doing when you were were they were they treating you like bud students? Were they beating you guys and tearing you up during those two weeks before you joined the class? And what were they doing to get rid of some of these guys?

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Well, the the runs were longer. It it was all the physical stuff and then a lot of cold water. But it wasn't it wasn't that hard. It wasn't bad. The running was pretty, pretty hard. And I I worked pretty hard to get ready for it. And and I I, as I recall, I it it wasn't a real problem for me, but by gum, it was it was hard. And I remember I think I was in in shape for it. But there's I remember one, there's one run we had, this guy, in fact, he lives in Coronado today.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  He led the run. And she's, you know, he just kept going and going. And and I remember at the end of the run. I guess I experienced hypothermia, which I'd never known anything about, and I still didn't at that time. But I know that as soon as we got done with the run and I ran over to the, I guess, someplace where they sold Baby Ruth candy bars and ate about two of those puppies right off the bat before we went to the chow hall.

• 46:03Jocko Willink?

  And your instructors, were these guys like Korean War vets and World War II vets?

• 46:10Speaker 01

  That's a good, good question. There was one guy that was a, a World War II guy and I think, I think he was at Normandy. And then there was other guys that were Korean and, um, yeah, Korean War. Oh, and Joe Barber, yeah, he, he was a Second World War guy, but I don't know, he wasn't a frogman, I don't think, at that point. But, uh, and then the other guys were, were, yeah, the couple of the other instructors were post Korea.

• 46:48Jocko Willink?

  And this is 1962?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Sixty-two, March of sixty-two.

• 46:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so this is like, the SEAL teams had just been formed up. Did you hear about that?

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. They, and so we went across, when we got done with training and went across the street, there were fifty SEALs. Uh, the SEAL Team One had been formed and it consisted of fifty guys.

• 47:10Jocko Willink?

  So, first day of, you said you remembered your first day of actual training with the whole class.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:18Jocko Willink?

  Did they stomp you guys in the ground? Was it a more gentle entry? What'd they do to you?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Well, we had a pretty serious conditioning hike. Um, and so we, yeah, there were trainees strung out from the hotel to, down to, down to north, you know, just everywhere, but, uh, but yeah, we had a good run. And then we, everybody's pretty hot, so we got in the water, it gets cooled off.

• 47:46Jocko Willink?

  Cool you down a little bit.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. You trainees look, look a little, a little hot and you need to get, get cooled off here, so.

• 47:56Jocko Willink?

  Were people quitting on the first day?

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, we probably, I don't know how many, but yeah, we'd lose, the, the first week there, we probably lost.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Twenty guys all together?

• 48:09Jocko Willink?

  And?

• 48:09Speaker 01

  It's a guess, I don't know.

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  Do you think they just didn't know what they were getting into?

• 48:15Speaker 01

  I'm sure that a couple of them just didn't know that all, yeah. Cause I know the, I know nowadays there's so much, a prospective UDT guy is gonna, or SEAL Team guy is gonna, they're gonna know a lot about the team. And, but our guy, you know, in those days, yeah, there were, there was, yeah, they didn't have any idea. And probably, probably the, there's one guy, he was from Holland and he ended up graduating from high school in, up in the northwest someplace and his name, he's, he's a good friend of mine, actually lives in Coronado now.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  And his name is Dutch Swagamuckers. And, and he, when we first day in the pool, he, he could not swim. And you know that deal where they have you, you have your, you have to keep your hands above water, something like that? I don't know for how long it was, but it was, you know, you, you need to keep yourself afloat. And this guy, he was a cyclist, so he had not one ounce of fat on him. So you put him on the, in the pool, couldn't swim. And yeah, he was down in the bottom and he, he have his hands up there and he's also, he wasn't real tall. He's about five, five six, five seven.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  And he had his hands up there and he, you could tell he just, and then he'd sink, the fingers would go below the surface of the water. And then he would, he would get himself back up, but he made it through. And then when he, and then all the swimming pool thing, and then finally, thank God, he was issued a pair of fins. And then with his legs, as a cyclist, he, he could outswim most people anyhow. And so, but he, I, I'll never forget that guy, he's such a courageous guy and how he- Able was able to do what he did with no swimming background at all.

• 50:21Jocko Willink?

  That's insane.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really is.

• 50:23Jocko Willink?

  That's crazy.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he but he did it and he became he was a very successful frogman. And then he he did some diving after the teams and yeah, but he's he's a local guy in Coronado now and does has a nice family and good wife and all that stuff, so.

• 50:45Jocko Willink?

  So you roll into Hell Week.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 50:47Jocko Willink?

  What what do you remember about Hell Week?

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Oh, it was it was bitchin'.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  I uh.

• 50:55Jocko Willink?

  Were you was what was the hype around going into it? Was people nervous? Were people excited about it? Were like, were you scared? What was the hype going into it?

• 51:08Speaker 01

  I think nervous and scared probably was the two two two biggest feelings about it. Yeah, everybody was and that's probably the same today, huh? You know, it just. Yeah, it was I. I know in my own head, uh, you know, I've thought about it a lot. Uh.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  I I I swear there was there was never a thought of not making it through Hell Week. I just wasn't sure and I think that's how all of all of us felt. And yeah, we're all gonna make it, but we don't know how. But we weren't asked to articulate that. We all we had to do is hang in there. And and so that was my mindset. Well, what the hell? I just do it as long I'll just hang in here. And if you have that mindset, then I think it becomes manageable. And uh, and it was it was hard.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  I mean, you got damn cold and you didn't sleep and uh, but you knew after Monday that there's Tuesday. And you know, we're just and we got done on Saturday morning and um. And you got through and it wasn't, you didn't have this feeling that, oh God, I made it. I can't believe I made it. No, you had this feeling. Well, phew, I'm glad that's over with. It you, cause I think you, I think your mindset was that you were, you were gonna get through. It just, just how the hell you're gonna do it. Who knows, you know, so you, you just do it.

• 52:51Jocko Willink?

  How many, how many people you think you lost?

• 52:54Speaker 01

  I don't know. Let's say we started with a grand total of 80. We probably lost at least half, you know? Maybe, maybe we were down to 30. I remember we started with like six or seven boat crews and then at the end we had four. And so you have six men on a boat and as I've said before, I wasn't much of a student, but I could multiply six.

• 53:18Jocko Willink?

  Six times three.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, carry the one, yeah.

• 53:23Jocko Willink?

  And then you get, so was, was your training broken up into phases the way it is now? So for me, I went through first phase, which was like the weeding out phase. It was nine weeks long. Then we went into dive phase where you learned how to scuba dive and dragger and all that. And then went into land warfare. I think dive phase was like seven weeks and then land warfare was another eight weeks or nine weeks.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  It was, it was somewhat like that. Yeah. It was definitely phase, that first phase right up to hell week. They just beat the crap out of you, you know, and get in shape. And then you had hell week and then I remember for a few days after hell week, that next week, we, we did some, we shot guns or something like that. Where we, cause everybody's pretty sore. And then, then the dive phase and then, um.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Uh, I guess.

• 54:15Jocko Willink?

  Was dive phase a challenge?

• 54:17Speaker 01

  No, uh, for me.

• 54:18Jocko Willink?

  For you? Not really?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  No. No, it was easy.

• 54:22Jocko Willink?

  Were you guys diving the old Emerson rig? What were you guys diving?

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Emerson.

• 54:26Jocko Willink?

  So you started on open circuit. Did you guys do pool competency?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they, we were well prepared, uh, I think, you know, everybody knew how to do it. And we were, we, we were a lot in the, we were in the pool a lot and then we went off, um, up at Point Loma a lot.

• 54:43Jocko Willink?

  It was pool comp, like when I went through pool comp was a big, uh, hurdle to get over. Where you had the twin eighties on, you had the double hose regulator, they're gonna come down, tie that thing in knots, rip your mask off, beat you up down there underwater. It was something that a lot of guys failed. Myself included, I failed it the first time I took it. Um, but was that like a big hurdle for you guys? Or was it more like they were just instructing you?

• 55:09Speaker 01

  You know, I don't remember it being that, that much harassment. Uh, maybe we got off easy on that deal. Because, uh, there was a little bit of that, but for the most part, it was, it was instructive. And I never felt, you know, they made you take your regulator, you know, do things where you could hold your breath. But it wasn't, I don't remember that being a problem or a challenge even.

• 55:34Jocko Willink?

  And then you did, you said you dove the Emerson rig? For a closed circuit, do you remember?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Oh, I remember we dove a closed circuit thing, but I don't, I don't, I think, I can't remember the name of it. It might've been Emerson, but it was closed circuit and.

• 55:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I remember some of the old guys told me, they called it the green death because it was like a horrible rig to dive. For whatever reason, I don't know the reason why. They just, they just didn't like this Emerson rig.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  I, well, I think, I think that was it. I remember there was a guy in my, this guy named Dowd, who died in a training thing because of the, of the Emerson. I'm sure, I think it was an Emerson. And I remember the poor guy, he was in the decompression chamber there trying to bring him back and didn't do it.

• 56:24Jocko Willink?

  Uh, the diving, you said you were diving off Point Loma, going out doing basic dives and this kind of thing?

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:30Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and then what, what kind of land warfare training did you get?

• 56:35Speaker 01

  Boy, that's a good question. I don't remember getting much of it at all.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, we didn't do, we did a little bit of marches out at O-Tai where I guess there are a bunch of houses out there now, but you know.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  It was a lot of land, you know, hiking and going around. But there wasn't, there wasn't much of it and, and, and it makes sense because SEAL Team really wasn't part of the mission anymore, yet.

• 57:04Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Uh, so that land stuff, we were water guys. We were frogmen. So we, you know, we didn't have to mess with that stuff.

• 57:13Jocko Willink?

  So you, well, when you wrap up with training, did you go to airborne school?

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Uh, I went about a year after training.

• 57:21Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Uh, some guys did, some guys didn't, and I don't know. Why my number was delayed, but then, then we did go to jump school at Benning.

• 57:29Jocko Willink?

  So when you graduated BUDS or you graduated UDT training?

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:34Jocko Willink?

  And then you got stationed on a west coast team? What team did you go to?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Twelve.

• 57:38Jocko Willink?

  And what was it like showing up there? What was the, what was the deal?

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Well, it was great. I ran into Donald Loughlin, the guy I met that very first day I, uh, there and they. Uh, I think first thing we did is, uh. Uh, this fellow officer of mine and I said, well, I guess.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Kind of looked around and I said, well, might as well go for a run. So we, we just started working out and. And there wasn't a whole hell of a lot going on.

• 58:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. This is like, what now it's, is it 1963 yet?

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, late, uh, late 62, uh, August. We got done in August.

• 58:17Jocko Willink?

  Are you hearing rumblings about Vietnam? Is that like?

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Not really. Uh, I don't, I don't know if anybody had been to Vietnam yet.

• 58:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I mean, even talking, I've had guys on that were, you know, in the Navy in 1965. They still weren't thinking about Vietnam. It wasn't even a thing yet. And as late as 1965, then it's kind of kicked off where everyone.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  That's just about exactly right. Cause I got out in 65, February of 65 and then, um.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  My brother, actually, I was driving east to go work in some corporate job. And, uh, and then he was driving west. He just got done with OCS and he was heading, heading to Coronado.

• 59:02Jocko Willink?

  So you guys high-fived as you cr- crisscrossed the country?

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we met in Tucson, drank, we emptied that town of beer. And he went west and I went east and, uh, my wife was pissed off because I had drank too much the night before, but then we, we just, uh, carried on.

• 59:20Jocko Willink?

  And he had, he had followed in your footsteps, heard about what you were doing?

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:24Jocko Willink?

  And thought that sounded like a good deal?

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  And what, what, are you tracking him as he's going through?

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Training?

• 59:32Jocko Willink?

  UDT training?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  Pretty much. Uh, he would send, I remember him, he got engaged and, uh, he got engaged while he was in training and then got married after, after he was done with training. But, uh, yeah, and he would send pictures of, of his engagement party and stuff and I mean, he had his haircut like yours and, uh, and so it was, uh, and yours. So, uh, they, um, uh, but, you know, again, you know, we don't have the phone, you know, it's just interesting how, how infrequently we would communicate and yet not always felt up to date.

• 1:00:15Jocko Willink?

  Right. So when you got to, just to rewind a little bit, when you got to UDT, did you say UDT 12?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:23Jocko Willink?

  So you get to UDT 12, do you get assigned to a platoon? Do you go on deployment? What do you do when you get there?

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  I got assigned to a platoon with, uh, Clay Freeman. He was a platoon officer and, uh, he was a great guy. Went to Dartmouth, was a big time skier and, um, good, good guy. But anyhow, so we, and then, uh, we just hung out and I think we did some, we did a sub-op one time off of, uh, San Clemente and, and then, um, oh, and, and then what, what did happen is that we had the, the missile crisis with Castro.

• 1:00:57Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Deal or, yeah. And that, that ended up not being anything really, but they, everybody loaded up on a. APD, I think is that what we traveled in and then they just did PT and they got down to the canal and then turned around and came back because the crisis was over.

• 1:01:18Jocko Willink?

  Also, like you loaded up on a ship to go over to Cuba for to do whatever.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. And not having it to do it then came home.

• 1:01:29Jocko Willink?

  Would you, would you guys go on deployments? You know, like when I got in the teams, you were going to get in a platoon, you were going to do a workup, you were going to go on deployment, you were going to get done with that deployment. And the first couple of, well, actually the first, second, third, and fifth deployment, I think, were all shipboard for me.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:48Jocko Willink?

  So I was on ships.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Oh, is that right?

• 1:01:50Jocko Willink?

  Were you guys deploying like that? Or when you got put in your platoon, did you say, did someone say, okay, on this date, you're going to go on deployment, you're going to go to the South Pacific, or you're going to go to Southeast Asia on a ship or anything like that?

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Well, not that organized. We would get assigned and we knew that our platoon was going to go at such and such a time. You know, I think, I think we were due to go out another six months after we got on. And then, and you'd go, and I forgot how long the deployments were, but they were, seemed pretty, pretty long.

• 1:02:28Jocko Willink?

  So did you do one of those deployments?

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Well, we keep talking about God intervening here. What, what happened to me is, we got a new CO, took, took Mac the Pipe's position. But this new CO was a guy who was a Naval Academy grad. And he was coming to the teams, you know, and I said, God, a Naval Academy guy going to run McHale's Navy? Are you kidding me? And so Bill Robinson shows up and he took

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  one look at me for some reason. And he said, I don't know how, I don't know if you're going to do very well in the teams. I say, Okay, he says, yeah, first thing, you need a haircut, you know, because I was really taking this role that they described in this thing seriously. But being a Naval Academy grad, he couldn't exactly embrace the same, same thing that I was embracing. And so he says, I'll tell you what, I'm good friends with Jack Sodath, and Jack Sodath was the head of the Training Department. He says, I'm gonna see if I can get you a job over there. I said, whoo, talk about the briar patch, yeah, I mean, that's a hell of a deal, yeah,

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  you get me into the Training Department, I'm fine.

• 1:04:00Jocko Willink?

  The Training Department at UDT?

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  At Building 208. And so...

• 1:04:06Jocko Willink?

  But this wasn't the, this isn't the Training Department that ran, uh, basic training?

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Jocko Willink?

  This is like, oh, it is?

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13Jocko Willink?

  So you were gonna be like a UDT instructor?

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  UDT instructor.

• 1:04:17Jocko Willink?

  And how long you been in the team for?

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Well, that was in December, I got in in August, so, what, September, October, November, I was in three months.

• 1:04:25Jocko Willink?

  And this guy looks at you and says, you probably gonna be better off as an instructor?

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, how was that? And I was all for it. And, uh, so I went over in the, in the Training, Training Unit, and, um, and I, I just loved it, it was a, god, I mean, who, being an instructor is a great deal. And, uh, you know, I was qualified, I mean, I could run, I could do all that stuff, you know, and I knew everything about, uh, what, what trainees go through. But I had no, I, I did not deploy, I didn't, you know, I did, we did a couple of practice runs, but I, but Bill felt that it was better for the overall organization if I was there or not with him.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  And, uh, so I, I was there, so I finished out my, my Naval's career there, and then, uh...

• 1:05:17Jocko Willink?

  How many years were you instructor for?

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  Two and a half years.

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  And you put through, how many classes, like 10, 15 classes?

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Well, it was, uh, 30, 31, 32, uh, 33, well, 30, Class 30, 31, 32, 33, and start of 34. Cause my brother was in Class 35. And then, um, we, uh, yeah, and he, you know, I, I was out by the time Danny started, my brother.

• 1:05:49Jocko Willink?

  What, uh, what'd you learn about? Humans and and their ability to push through when you were an instructor as compared to when you were going through it yourself. I never was an instructor and so I never got to see kind of the other side of it. But I've, you know, obviously got a bunch of friends that were instructors and it was interesting some of the takeaways that they have from watching people go through these extremely stressful scenarios.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  You know, that's a good, that's a good point and and a good question. And there's probably a lot about that that's that's profound and and would be instructive. And I, I think I just, uh, the way I operated, it was probably just on my gut, you know, and I'd see guys come into training and and you could tell, gee, is this, this guy's gonna make it or not? And it was, it was great watching them, the ones that are determined and that are really, it's like, probably like being a coach, you know, like I, I know my son played water polo

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  and, you know, and the coaches, a good coach is, assesses his, his players, you know, really well and thoughtfully. And I think, I think you could, I think probably what I remember thinking that about, I can't think of any specific case, but I remember kind of making a judgment based on what I saw of their performance, you know, in the training. So I, I, I, that's about, and I couldn't, I don't guess I had, I could differentiate the ones that could make it and not, I mean, between the ones that could make it and not,

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  I could differentiate between them, but then you have a group of, of trainees that, that got through and. You know, other than the common deal that they were determined and focused and worked hard and committed.

• 1:07:55Jocko Willink?

  It seems strange that they're really, over all these years, they've never been able to figure out who's gonna make it and who's not gonna make it. It doesn't matter if you were a division one wrestler or a division one water polo player. You might quit and you, and you might make it. You could be a, you know, person that like doesn't know how to swim, like you're buddy there. And you'd think never in a million of the years this person can make it, and they can make it. They've just not really figured it out. If you really figured out who's gonna make it, who's not gonna make it.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Right. Well, you know, it just reminds me, there was a guy, an officer in my class, when we were doing the, the two week pre-officer deal, and he was an Olympic swimmer. He was a backstroker, and he went to Yale. God, I haven't thought about him until this moment, but he, he was in my class. And I remember this other guy in my class who was a swimmer at Dartmouth, and he was, you know, he knew all about good swimmers. And he swam against this guy, he says, yeah, he's, he was in the Olympics. And I said, oh my God, yeah. And I remember him. And he quit after two days. You know, he couldn't run. He could swim.

• 1:09:14Jocko Willink?

  They're gonna figure out what you're weak at, aren't they?

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna, you have to be, you have to be, I was kinda lucky that I was, I was okay at kinda everything. I wasn't gonna win anything. I never, I never wanna, I don't think I ever wanna run my entire time in the SEAL teams. I don't think I ever wanna swim. In fact, I can know I never wanna swim. But I was kinda like, okay, at pretty much everything. And that is a better way to be than to be an Olympic swimmer and not be able to run.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, you betcha.

• 1:09:48Jocko Willink?

  That doesn't, that doesn't work.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  I think this guy's name was Dolby. I have to look him up, but yeah, I remember. Gosh, he was.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  Poor guy, he just wasn't built for running and all the land stuff. It was, and if he, it's a good thing he never had got to the obstacle course because he probably would have died. But, but he was great in the water though.

• 1:10:11Jocko Willink?

  So you spend these two and a half years, uh, putting students through.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Seeing that side of things and then it's just your time is up in the Navy.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:10:20Jocko Willink?

  And you decide you're gonna, you decide you're gonna move on.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  I had to go get a job and, uh, see my heritage, a lot of, a lot of the way I was formed, uh, growing up was the, the whole boarding school, the corporate deal. My dad was a corporate guy and, and that's naturally what I'm going to be doing. And then when I got in UDT, uh, I realized that's not how I have to live my life. And, but I signed up for a corporate job anyway. And I was in this management training program back in Baltimore, Maryland. And I love that the company's wonderful. It's McCormick and Company. They sell spices and the people, the nicest bunch of people I've met in any group. And, uh,

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  and they were, God, they were so great to me and everything getting started. But I realized, um, I remember my first day of work, I was up on the sixth floor of this building. And I spent the whole day in there and as I, it was, it was real sunny and bright one. My wife dropped me off at work. And then at night when I come down to about six and it was still, it was summertime. So it was still light.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  And I could tell it had rained during the day and I said, what's this all about? It rained while I was in this building and I wasn't even aware of it. And I said, this is, this is not how I want to live. I don't want to live in a, in an office. So then I, I stuck with the training program for a couple of years and then, uh, I, I had to make a move. So I did. But I, and I ended up, um, a friend of mine was teaching school at Punahou School in Ho- in Hawaii. So I, uh, I said, so I wrote him, I said, you got, are there any openings out there? So he got me a job as a teacher at Punahou. And I said, boy, from Baltimore to Honolulu, that's not a bad switch.

• 1:12:17Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you're tracking your brother as he goes through training and you know, he's, he's doing good, makes it through training.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:12:28Jocko Willink?

  Um, what is he, is he writing you letters? How are you, is he calling you on the phone? How are you, how are you tracking? Like, like you said, we don't have, uh, cell phones in our pockets back then.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  I think, you're right, right. No, it's much different of course, but I think phone calls, uh, we would call long distance. It would always cost a whole bunch of money to, to call long distance in those days, but it wasn't that onerous. And we could, we could, we could, we could, we knew what was going on.

• 1:12:56Jocko Willink?

  And, and as that's happening, and now, now he's in the teams, now Vietnam is sort of in, you know, escalating very rapidly.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Jocko Willink?

  And is he talking to you about the fact that he's probably going to end up deploying to Vietnam?

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  No, he was planning on going into the training unit, just like I did, uh, and thought, thought for sure that that would happen. But then, and he did, did one deployment in Vietnam and then came back.

• 1:13:24Jocko Willink?

  And that, was that a UDT deployment?

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Yes, he was with 12. Uh, no, he was with team 11.

• 1:13:29Jocko Willink?

  So he does a UDT deployment to Vietnam and they're doing the kind of UDT stuff, working a little bit, but it wasn't really, well, I shouldn't say that because I've talked to a bunch of UDT guys that did some really dangerous stuff in, in Vietnam.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Oh, there was, they were doing ambushes and stuff. They were, they were playing with guns and stuff. Yeah, it was, it was, it was different.

• 1:13:53Jocko Willink?

  And, and he came home and what was his, what were his thoughts about that deployment? What did he tell you about that?

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Uh, well, he, he, he just thought that he, he wasn't sure how, how much he had.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  How purposeful it seemed to him. I mean, he wasn't rebellious. He was going along with the program and happy to be a part of the team and, and all of that, but it wasn't, he was just, it was just something he had to do. He glad he did it and got it done. But then, uh, the whole, the whole Vietnam spirit is, is pretty, pretty grim, even with the teams, even with great people like UDT guys. And, uh, it just, no one really knew what they were doing. And they, they'll tell you, gosh, we were over there and we didn't, we weren't really sure what was going on. And then, um, he did tell me like this one

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  instance, they were setting up, they had an ambush all set up and then some VC come down and, on, in the river. And they, uh, and Danny, Danny said that he had his gun up ready and he was ready to let it rip. And then he felt this tap on his shoulder and there was this, Doc, I forgot his last name, but he was a medic guy. And, um, and he said, he shook him off. And so Danny kind of lowered his weapon and, uh, and then next thing you know, there's a whole boatload of them coming down. And somehow the Doc was aware Danny wasn't, but the Doc said, hey, this is, we don't, we don't want to play

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  guns here just now. We're outnumbered. And sure enough, um, they got through that. But there was a, it was that kind of thing that was going on in Vietnam. No one ever really knew what was, what was happening. And, um, he, um, so he gets back and then he was hoping that his next deal would be to get, uh, get assigned to, uh, the training unit. And, um, but instead he got, he got assigned to SEAL Team One. And they're heading out, they were gonna deploy to Vietnam, you know, shortly.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  And I remember this friend of ours, Lou, he was an officer in the teams and cause Danny was married and Lou said, hey, uh, and Danny was pissed because he wanted to go to the training unit, you know, and so, um, but he's fine with it, that's what I'm gonna do. And so Lou said, hey, you know, a single guy and he said, you know, let me take your place, I'll take your place and I'll go in the teams and you can go to the training unit. Cause Lou was in the training unit already. And Danny said, no, it's, uh, I'm gonna see this through, you know, so he did. And, um, and so

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  it's just kind of the thing, it works out, but.

• 1:17:05Jocko Willink?

  And then, so, so he goes on to deployment in Vietnam, did you hear from him while he was over there?

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Not from him.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  But, but, but, he was over there for about a week and I got a phone call from uh, his, uh, from the COO SEAL Team One, it was Frank Anderson. He said that

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  he said that, uh,

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  he said that, uh, Danny was killed.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  And I, uh,

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  So that's the last I heard. The first and the last I heard of that deployment. And I was in Baltimore at the time.

• 1:18:21Jocko Willink?

  Did that make the cubicle you were sitting in all day seem even smaller?

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Well, I had pretty much committed to moving out of that cubicle anyhow. So that in and of itself wasn't, wasn't a problem. But it did, did raise the, you know, and then of course, my parents were devastated and stuff as, as were the parents of 50,000 other people. But it did, and then that was in April.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  And so in August, I would, I would be coming back out for the, we all, you had to go two weeks of training because of the reserve commitment.

• 1:19:21Jocko Willink?

  So you were still in the reserves?

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  I was still in the reserves. So I was destined to come back to Coronado and do that in August. And so, but I knew, I knew then I probably would figure out a way to do something else. Actually, during that two-week deal, I'd found out about Ponahao and, and I already made a plan to get out of the cubicle. But going to, but it did raise the question of should I go back in? And because Frank asked, he said, he says, he didn't ask me to come back in, but he said that.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  I brought it, I kinda mentioned it to him, he says, "Boy, if you wanna come back, I'd love to have you," you know, 'cause we got along well. And actually, Bill Robinson, the guy that sent me to the training, we ended up becoming real close friends, but Frank says, "Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, we could use, we need, we need people and we'd love to have you back." I said, "Well, I'll think about it." And I was wrestling with that for a few months, and then we got done with one of those, during those two weeks, we got a lot of briefings from guys that were in Vietnam,

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  and they would tell us what was going on. And usually, we were, and so we'd get, we'd listen to those. And I remember, we were out in a break during those briefings, and I was, we were out kinda smoking cigarettes and just kinda hanging out and taking a break, and Tom Gerusi, who had just got back from Vietnam, and I were talking, he, I put him through training and we were good friends, and so I, I mentioned during the deal that I was thinking of going

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  back in, and he looked at me and he says, shook his head, he says, "It's all bullshit. Vietnam's all bullshit." He says, "You, you don't wanna go back in." And, and for some reason, or, I think, I think he was right about Vietnam. I mean, I think everybody realizes that that was, that was a mistake, it was a horrible mistake, and a lot of, a lot of people, it, it cost the country a lot, and, and it cost a lot of families a lot.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  So I, I, my personal decision was, you know, another month, I decided that no, it's, it's not the right thing to do. I, I...

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  I guess I thought of my parents, I thought, I just, I just thought about the whole Vietnam thing, I guess, and, and I'm not sure exactly what caused me to come to that, come to that decision, but it, it just, it just doesn't seem to be the right thing to do.

• 1:22:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I can't even imagine trying to, you know, you trying to tell your parents that you were gonna make that decision, that doesn't seem like that would have been, been, been the right thing to do in that scenario.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Hey, who knows, you know, I, I didn't, I'd never really got that far, so I didn't have to really hurt my head over, but I, it's a decision I made.

• 1:23:21Jocko Willink?

  So you stay in the reserves, though?

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Yes, well, you, you were obligated to, so I stayed in for about seven more years, and then, then got out, but it was, I was more into living in Hawaii and teaching school and, and getting, getting, getting, oh, and kids were showing up.

• 1:23:44Jocko Willink?

  Showing up?

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Jocko Willink?

  When did you start surfing?

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  I was the ripe old age of 22 in Coronado, when I first got to Coronado, and they, you know, like I said, when I first pulled in there, and those cars with the boards hanging out and everything were, God, just such, so compelling, so I signed up, and I bought a board, bought a Hobie, Phil Edwards bottle, and Dana Point, and drove up there, and got it, and started surfing.

• 1:24:17Jocko Willink?

  Was that before Dana Point was, they put all the?

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Jocko Willink?

  Was it, was it as good as like Malibu, how good was it?

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  It, it usually was bigger, yeah, it was as good as Malibu, and it was as huge, and it was usually a, a big swell, north swell, and then, it was, yeah, it was, it was killer Dana.

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  So, that must have hurt, being in Baltimore as well, now you can't surf.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, although, I did go to Rehoboth Beach.

• 1:24:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we did, went there a couple of times, and...

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I really had to get back to California. It's really important.

• 1:24:57Jocko Willink?

  And then you end up in Hawaii, you're teaching school and you're just getting more and more, or I should say, I guess continuing to find other ways to be involved in the water at this time?

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  Yes, and then it was, I got really interested in outrigger canoe racing. And so I joined this canoe club and there was one other guy there that was a holly guy and the rest were low-hoing and we got on a crew and I loved it. And became real good friends with the coach, his baby bell, and he was great.

• 1:25:34Jocko Willink?

  How long are those races?

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Well, you have the regattas and so if you're like I was, senior men and those are about a mile. And you have buoys, you go around and around. And then you have the distance races after the regatta season is over. And then you have the distance races, you know, there's one that runs from Kailua to Waikiki, 20 something. And then the granddaddy of all the canoe races is the Molokai race, which goes from Haleo Lono Harbor on Molokai to Waikiki. And so...

• 1:26:13Jocko Willink?

  And how big, how many people are in the canoe?

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Six. And then like when you do those long-distance races, you have nine people in the canoe. And you, three are resting and then you just change and you make water changes as you go. And you change every 20 minutes or so. And it's about a six-hour race.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  So it's, you have to be in pretty good shape, but it's, but you do, you know, you just get...

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  And how'd you do in all those races?

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  Well, the first year, we...

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  Let me see, I guess our first year, we were really bummed, yeah, we, we got beat by Waikiki Surf and Outrigger. We were third. And then the next year, we, we won it. And then the next year after that, we won it. And then, and then my last year, I was up on the mainland, starting to work for Chart House. But they, they said I could come back and paddle with them in the Molokai race. So I went back and we, we did pretty well, but we didn't win it. But it was, it was a good race.

• 1:27:28Jocko Willink?

  And is that what your transition was out of teaching school, going to work at the Chart House?

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, I was teaching, I was working, I was waiting on tables in Waikiki. While I was teaching school, I worked at Chuck's Steak House. It was at the Outrigger Hotel. And Buzz's Steak and Lobster, it was down on Beach, Beach Walk. And, yeah, I, I, I knew, I, I knew I wanted to go to work for, for the Chart House. Because there were a couple of UDT guys that were, actually, there was one UDT guy and then Joey Cabell, who's a big time surfer that started the very first Chart House in Aspen. And his name is Buzzy Bent. And then Buzzy and Ron Smith were classmates in UDT Class 16.

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  It's 16 or 19, but it was before me. And I became friends with Ron, who's a dynamic character and just a great personality. And he, and he was, at this point in the late 60s, he was President of Chart House. And then Buzzy was kind of retired and John was, Ron was running the company. And that's, I, so I wrote him a letter. I said, hey, I'm working at a steakhouse in Waikiki. You got any openings? And he says, sure, yeah, come on. So I ended up working for the Chart House.

• 1:28:52Jocko Willink?

  And what, what did you do at the Chart House? There was a Chart House in Coronado when I was, when I was in Bud's and when I got to SEAL Team One. And, man, I used to go to that Chart House, I don't know, like, once a week, maybe once every other week, and get prime rib. And it was weird because when I grew up, we didn't eat a lot of steak when I was growing up. So I didn't even start liking steak. And and prime rib until I was like in the Navy because then I could buy it myself.

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:20Jocko Willink?

  But we used to go, I used to go to the chart house with my buddies and but we and I knew like there was some, I had some knowledge that this was some kind of team guys that owned this thing. But I never made any connections with every, anybody never like never talked to anybody. No one ever said anything about it. But so were you involved in that chart house in the early nineties in in Coronado?

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, before that I started in seventy one.

• 1:29:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, damn. The chart house has been around since the seventies?

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they did the, oh, yeah, the first one in Aspen was nineteen sixty, I think. It opened on July, July fourth. And then the second one was in Newport and that was, I remember I was in the Navy when we ate it at Newport one. And then that was the second one. And the third one was at Shelter Island.

• 1:30:14Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, on, yeah, Shelter Island.

• 1:30:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  And that's when Ron joined the company. And yeah, he got out of the Navy about sixty four, sixty five, and then went to work because of Buzzy. He and Buzzy were tight.

• 1:30:30Jocko Willink?

  And this is someone you said named Buzzy Bent?

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:33Jocko Willink?

  Not Buzzy Trent, the?

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  Right, no, the surf guy. Yeah, no, no, it was Buzzy Bent. Who was a great surfer himself.

• 1:30:40Jocko Willink?

  And so you were working as a waiter in Hawaii?

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:44Jocko Willink?

  And you write these guys a letter, they're old team guys, you're an old team guy. And they're like, yeah, we'll hire you.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:50Jocko Willink?

  Did you tell them you were a waiter? Did you tell them you had some big management position?

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  No, no, I told them I was a waiter. I was a, and, and I knew, I knew Ron fairly well at this point personally, you know? And so he, he, he believed me, you know, that I, that, and so we had kind of a training program. This was in seventy one when I came, I came back, I came back from Honolulu to, to Redondo Beach. And did a training program there for a few months and then, then they, Ron and actually John Creed, the other guy who was the executive vice president, he was an old surf guy and, and water guy.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  And they said, they were talking about, gee, we'd like to get a, a.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  A restaurant, a chart house in Hawaii, cause uh, and there was one there, but it wasn't part of the corporate chart house on the mainland. So I said, well, gosh, you ought to, you ought to buy a restaurant from Jerry McDonald. He has them on Maui. And so we ended up, so uh, that we ended up buying the sugarcane inn, which is in Lahaina, and then made a chart house out of that. And that was my first real assignment with chart houses, to go open that, build it, get it ready for business. And that was my first kind of real assignment.

• 1:32:17Jocko Willink?

  And what year, what year was that?

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  That was in 1972 is when we, cause Danny was born in November of 72. Uh, we went over in December of 72 and bought the chart house. And, and then we've stayed there. I, I actually, I, I have to, I, I gotta acknowledge the heroic wife I had at that point. She gave birth to Danny on November 11th, 1972. And uh, December 10th or 11th, we were uh, on Maui. Uh, she, she was a month old child, month after giving birth, and we were opening a restaurant.

• 1:33:00Jocko Willink?

  [laughing]

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  And she, she, uh, she courageously charged through it and did great. Uh, probably no one else could have do, do that.

• 1:33:09Jocko Willink?

  And uh, so how long, how long were you running that chart house?

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  I ran, ran that baby for about a year. And then um, I came back to the, let me see, I had, oh yeah. And I came back to um,

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  The mainland, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. We, I ran there for about a year. And then about that time Chart House was getting bought by another, by another corporation. It was a big, it was the largest franchisee of Burger King restaurants. So they, they wanted to diversify and so they bought the Chart House. At that point consisted of about seven or eight restaurants. And at that point, so they asked me to come back for that to be a kind of a regional manager guy in California. So we, we moved back. And again, it was almost the same sort of experience I had in Baltimore.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  I said, this is getting pretty corporate guys and so how about, can I go back to Maui? And so I went back to Maui and stayed there for quite a while.

• 1:34:22Jocko Willink?

  Still with the Chart House?

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Still with the Chart House. Yeah, I went back there and then we, I ran the Chart House that had opened a year earlier as a manager. So, and then we started developing restaurants in the islands and then I became kind of a regional guy out there then.

• 1:34:42Jocko Willink?

  And how long did you stick it out in, in that business?

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  I stuck it out. I was there, let me see, so seventy.

• 1:34:53Jocko Willink?

  Cause the restaurant business is really hard.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Well, it, it is, although as many of us from Chart House like to say is that I wouldn't work for a restaurant company unless it was a Chart House. I mean, Chart House was pretty, well, you, you just described it. It's a special place and it was. And, and in fact today, even though Chart House is no longer in existence, there's a kind of a Facebook group that has the, it's the old, old Chart House employees, friends and so on. And they're, boy, they're just, it's a, it's a great group. They're very dedicated to the Chart House. And he's like, I remember this when this happened and somebody fell in their face in the avocado dip.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  And it's just, so there's a lot of history there that gets retold in, in Facebook forums.

• 1:35:47Jocko Willink?

  Well, how long did you stick with it then?

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  And then, well, I stuck with it.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  Until about seventy six and then I built a my own restaurant up in Makawau and I just made it, I just ripped the chart house off. We had a salad bar and you know and we had our deal and but it took off. It was a great restaurant, very, very busy. And so we ran that for a while. We were living in Lahaina and it was about a forty five minute drive up to Makawau and it was, I wasn't, I was kinda getting tired of that. So I asked the chart house guys if they wanted to sell any chart houses. So I ended up buying another chart house right outside of Boston in Ducksbury, Massachusetts. And again, my courageous wife,

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  who was pregnant with our youngest child, and we loaded up and went there, ran that restaurant for about a year. And then, and then our little baby Dougie was born there and then we, and then Chart House, they ended up buying that restaurant back from me and then offered me a job back with the company in California because they were gonna do a leverage buyout from Pillsbury. By this time Pillsbury owned the, owned the Chart House.

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  And they were gonna do a leverage buyout. So he asked me to come on back and help, help with that.

• 1:37:27Jocko Willink?

  So where'd you go? Where'd you move back to?

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Coronado.

• 1:37:29Jocko Willink?

  Back to Coronado. And what year was that?

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  Eighty five.

• 1:37:33Jocko Willink?

  And now you're, now you're still working with Chart House?

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:37Jocko Willink?

  Are you having to go to the restaurants every day? I mean, what are you doing?

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  Well, I was a regional manager guy and then, oh, I was in their training department for a while and then I was a regional manager guy. And I, my region. I was living in Coronado, but my region was in Hawaii and Colorado. And so I had three fairly nice places.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, rough, rough tours.

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  Rough tour.

• 1:38:06Jocko Willink?

  How long did you stick with that for?

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  That up until the time Sam Zell bought the Chart House, which was in ninety-eight or something like that. And Sam Zell, he's a huge real estate guy.

• 1:38:21Jocko Willink?

  Isn't he the biggest real estate owner in the world or something like that?

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Something like that, yeah. I mean, I was, I was talking with an accountant that knew him in Chicago. And she said that, the saying in Chicago was that if Sam jumps out of a twenty-story building, you ought to jump after him because he's probably gonna make money on the way down.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  The, um, yeah, and so I did, I stuck with that until ninety, ninety-eight. And then, um, I moved back to Coronado.

• 1:38:58Speaker 01

  And then we, uh, oh, and then Danny, my other boy, said that, why don't you come and why don't you be a lifeguard? I said, geez, really? Okay.

• 1:39:09Jocko Willink?

  So, so was he a lifeguard at this time?

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was at North Island. We were.

• 1:39:13Jocko Willink?

  And how old are you at this point?

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  I was, uh, I was about to turn fifty or sixty. I was about to turn, turn to sixty.

• 1:39:23Jocko Willink?

  And he's telling you, you should become a lifeguard.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I went through lifeguard training.

• 1:39:28Jocko Willink?

  So this whole time, are you just in the water still? And you're still working out? Are you still training? Like, how are you staying in, thinking about going to a lifeguard academy at age fifty-five or sixty or fifty? Even forty, whatever.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  Whatever it was, I'm not sure. I think I went through in ninety-nine, so that's sixty? Is that sixty? Yeah, that's sixty.

• 1:39:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you're sixty years old going through the lifeguard academy?

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Well, I think I was a couple of years younger. I was in my late fifties, so.

• 1:39:57Jocko Willink?

  Okay. And? How are you staying in shape all this time?

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Oh, I worked out.

• 1:40:02Jocko Willink?

  So you work out every day religiously?

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  I, I, even now, as, and I'm about as decrepit as you can get, but I, I, I do something. And it's an embarrassment, you know, people laugh at me as I go down the beach and everything, but that's tough.

• 1:40:18Jocko Willink?

  Now, how about what you're eating when you're working at all these restaurants, you got free access to like all kinds of food all day and night? How are you not just powering into, you know, those, that freaking hot brown bread that they used to have at the charred house? How are you not freaking putting on like eighty pounds of excess fat from that?

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's really my motive for working out is that, hey, if you work out hard enough, you can eat anything you want. And I say in order to keep my eating lifestyle functioning and flourishing, then I, I work out. And, but lately, you know, I've got these children that are Nazis about food. I can't eat this, I can't eat that. So I'm, I'm a little more disciplined.

• 1:41:06Jocko Willink?

  So you're, how many, how many hours a day would you say you worked out? Like when you were, let's just say you're forty years old, you're working at the charred house. How many hours a day are you working out? Are you going for a, for an hour run, two hour run, you're doing PT on the beach? What are you doing?

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Well, we got into cycling too. And cyclists, yeah, they're really crazy. And so I got a little bit of fringe craziness out of that. And we would, we would ride. Well, like my daughter and I did a, we got a tandem bike and we rode from Aspen, Colorado to Taos, New Mexico, which is about two, two hundred and fifty miles. And then, and then we rode from there to, well, we drove down to Albuquerque and then we rode from Albuquerque back to San Diego. And she, she was right there with me. And we did a, I don't know, a hundred and something a day, something like that. But those were, that's more long.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  I, I, I think, I think the, probably the.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  Probably the most important thing for me is, is the consistency of, of working out. And I have a friend, um, he, he says, motion is lotion and guy, you know, that really, if you keep moving, you're gonna be alright, you know, and, and it's like this morning, I hadn't been in, in the water for a few weeks and, uh, when I went to bed last night, I said, you're, you're in Coronado, the first thing you do tomorrow is you get on your paddle board and you go for a paddle. And paddling is important for me because, like I said, I'm, I'm pretty decrepit and kind of a physical disgrace, but, uh, I can still paddle, I hope.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  And, uh, we're gonna find out tomorrow morning. So that, I did go for a paddle this morning for about half an hour, forty-five minutes. And then I intend to lengthen that out, but I spent some time in Taos and the problem there is that the paddling isn't, I mean, it can be done, but you have to go down to the Rio Grande River, which is, which I'm happy to do, but I, in the winter, it's a little nippy, you know, so, um, but when I go back, I'll probably go back next week and, but I'm gonna get, get to paddling, cause I got in the, boy, my first couple strokes off, on my board this morning, it was like the Tin Man in Oz, man, you couldn't,

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  geez, you know, you could hear the sirens going off. People calling nine-one-one, uh, this geezer, yeah, this geezer, he just pulled away from the dock, I don't think he's gonna make it. But you know what, the, the miracle of paddling is by gum, after about fifteen or twenty minutes, the pains that I was feeling was first couple strokes, I didn't feel them anymore and, you know, and like, okay, I'm gonna pick it up here a little bit and gee, by the end of it, I felt like I, I felt fine, you know, so.

• 1:44:09Jocko Willink?

  That's the motion is the lotion, I guess.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:44:12Jocko Willink?

  So how, so you, you end up going through the lifeguard academy?

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:44:15Jocko Willink?

  And you, but you actually become a lifeguard?

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:18Jocko Willink?

  This becomes your job?

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  You know what, I, I realized, uh, I was a kinda, I had about ten years in with, uh, North Island. And then I got fired because this lady took over the, all the lifeguards and she found out that we were drinking beer in the tower at three and I, I wasn't with them, but some of these young fellows were a little less disciplined and got busted. And so I, I, I was part of that great, um, heli, the, and got, uh, so anyhow, I ended up not-

• 1:44:53Jocko Willink?

  So you got fired as a lifeguard. Now you're what? You were like 60 years old? 60 something years old?

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:44:59Jocko Willink?

  For being a miscreant, drinking beer on the job?

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  I was getting, yeah, I was getting in my sixties. I, and I wasn't, I wasn't even part of the fire.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  What, they just fired everybody?

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  Well, she fired that group. And then I was up, was in New Mexico or something and I came back and I wanted my job back and she just wouldn't give it back to me. So I, I guess I didn't actually get fired, but I sure didn't get a rehire. So then Coronado, uh, I don't know if, if Sean Carey, who's the captain down there is a wona- wonderful human being. And he said, he says, uh, he says, well, I, you know, well Dougie and I tried out that same, that same, yeah, we both were the same, yeah, we, I was one-

• 1:45:43Jocko Willink?

  So you and your youngest son try out for the lifeguards at the same time?

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, were, were we, uh, was that the summer before you got married?

• 1:45:49Jocko Willink?

  Um, yeah, I think it was.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  I think it was. Yeah, he and I go down, oh yeah, that was it. And there were eight of us that were, that were gonna be applying to be a lifeguard job. And so this guy, the, the guy that was running the, the PT stuff that we had to do in order to qualify, uh, he, he had us all up and then, and the first thing was a swim, I got to the buoy and back. And then we had to run up the beach to the other end of the beach, you know, 150 yards or something like that. And then there were a couple of little deals like that. And I remember there were eight of us and half of them were girls.

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  And Dougie was first on all the events and I was last on all of the events. And I remember after that first one, swim out and running up the beach. And I got to, and there was, Dougie was at the finish line already. He was towelled up. I think he was having a sandwich by the time I got there. And so I finally get there and I, and then this guy was timing it and I, I, I was kind of bent over, holding, holding myself up, propping myself up on the knees. And I kind of saw in my mouth to Dougie, I said, how did I make it, you know? He says, yeah, no, you're good. You're good, you know?

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  So I guess I got there just in time, but I, so then I, they hired me. And then the second year, and I, you know, I was hired with the city. And then, uh, and then the next year, you know, I was off for the winter time because they, they let everybody go, but the next, that, that summer I was invited back. And I went down to the tower and I said, God, do we have that, that PT stuff? And I said, I gotta start training for that. And, and the sergeant there at the time says, no, you've already been on. You don't have to do that, that, those events anymore. I said, whoa.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  It's sort of like I say, you know, God, God has had a hand in sparing me through a lot of stuff that I didn't have to, so anyhow, so anyhow, so I stayed on for about 10 years. And then, uh, uh, yeah, about a year and a half ago, two years, I guess. I've missed a couple of summers and it's, it's a heartbreak. I, I, I drive by there and wistfully look out at, at the tower I used to work in. And, and I wish I had my old job back, but it is a hearing deal. Some doctor just jabbed me on the, uh, uh, the hearing.

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  Uh, he said, I couldn't hear certain voices because they were a certain range. And so, so anyhow, I, I got, I couldn't qualify as a lifeguard anymore. And I, you know, I argued that, well, I'm not sure that.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  The hearing is that big a part of lifeguarding, but anyhow, I go fine. So, you know, I walked away begrudgingly.

• 1:48:59Jocko Willink?

  Now, it seems like along the way, I've talked to some of the, I guess it's the next generation, maybe a SEALs, a little bit younger than me, maybe 10 years behind me. And I guess it's when you were in Coronado that you, you developed a bunch of relationships and mentored a bunch of these, the next generation guys coming up. They all love you.

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  Well, they were wonderful guys. I mean, it's.

• 1:49:20Jocko Willink?

  How'd that all come about?

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Well, lifeguarding. There was, Sam was at the beach, Pepper's at the beach.

• 1:49:33Speaker 01

  There, there were others. Oh, and then Charlie, who was, you know, Charlie Keating, who,

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  wow, he, he, I've, I'd known him because he was a zoning and he would come over and he's just this wonderful kid. And he started coming over when he was like 13, 14 years old and then.

• 1:49:55Jocko Willink?

  So you remember him, Chuck Keating, when he was 13, 14 years old?

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:59Jocko Willink?

  He's coming to Coronado for the summer.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  Right. He would stay at my house.

• 1:50:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  With Doug.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, how did you, how did you, how'd that happen? I mean.

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  Well, oh, well, his cousin Bobby and, and Mikey were, their names were a little bit, but they're Keating family kids. And Charlie was one of their cousins.

• 1:50:21Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  One of their 800 cousins, you know, and Catholics, you know. So, they, but so that's how I got acquainted with Charlie and became a dear friend and wonderful guy, you know, just, just a great guy.

• 1:50:36Jocko Willink?

  And, and so in the summers, I mean, it's, it sounds from talking to some of his friends that you were kind of the reason he decided to go in the teams?

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  Um, I, I'm not aware of that. I, necessarily, I knew, I, oh, well, his dad did call me and said, hey Lance, Charlie's talking about going in the teams. I said, can you help? I said, well, I'll do anything I can. I, so I looked at, I think I found a name or something. I didn't do much of anything really, except referred him to somebody who, who really could help him. And so that's how he got in the teams. And then, but I'm real close with that whole family. And, and Charlie.

• 1:51:20Speaker 01

  Who was killed dad's name, his name is Charlie also. And he knew about my brother Danny and. So there's and then Charlie's brother Billy. Is also in the teams or was in the teams. I think he's getting out. Um, knew about. My, my brother and so there's a, there's a kinship there that we, we feel as family and. We, you know, we, we stay in touch and on May. I think it's May 3rd is when Charlie was killed in 2016.

• 1:52:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, 2016 he was killed.

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  And so anyhow, Charlie and I, you know, when I go to Rosecrans, I'll take a picture and send it to him and, and. That's one thing good about these damn iPhones, you know, you can communicate boom when you want to, you know?

• 1:52:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:52:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he's definitely a, a special guy. I mean, uh. I, when he was coming up in the teams, you know, I was in a position where I was teaching. Land warfare and stuff like that. So, you know, and so I, I would see faces, you know, I'd see guys.

• 1:52:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:34Jocko Willink?

  But unless someone was either really good or really bad, I probably wouldn't remember me, you know, and he was. You know, one of the guys, I, I remember this guy and, um, but man, like some of the, like the stories you hear about. About Chuck is just like, he was just a freaking epic guy. Um, and he's one of those guys, you know, you look at all these pictures of him that you just, you just know that this guy was just, uh. Such an awesome. Guy to have in your platoon and he left such a mark on so many of the team guy buddies of his and.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:05Jocko Willink?

  Uh, got a great thing going now. They got the, the C4 Ranch up here in San Diego, which is. A beautiful place, a bunch of awesome people and it gives, gives guys a place to be able to go and. Unwind and take their families and spend time in nature and all that kind of stuff. So. The, his, his name is, is living on and he's still helping the, his, his brother seals through that thing that he's doing.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, yeah, no, for sure. It's a great legacy. And, um, very worthwhile and, and.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  I know his dad's involved and then uh Brooke, his wife, I think is really involved and so yeah, it's it's it's important and significant and that yeah, they found a great piece of property up there. And I think it I think it's serves a it's filling out the mission in a great way.

• 1:53:56Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep. Uh so you retired, I guess, from the lifeguarding thing? That's what happened? And so and so what are you up to now?

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, that's kind of a problem.

• 1:54:10Jocko Willink?

  Drinking beer with the drinking beer with the youngsters.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, and I I I lately uh I spend more time feeling sorry for myself than I should, you know? And and then Dougie and I were talking and um we uh actually um I got I'm involved with with Dougie, um my son who and then this guy Sam, uh Blair down in Louisiana, uh who was in the teams and then moved to Louisiana. And they they started talking about uh developing um a coffee company. And uh and Dougie and I were just chatting about it and uh and I started thinking, God,

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  is this another wonderful thing that's coming to me that I can participate in? And so Dougie has asked me to, well, we we just chatted, we just naturally assumed that I would have a a small role and nothing too responsible or that requires any talent or anything, but something that I could be involved myself with. And uh I mean, it was uh the God thing again, you know? Maybe this is a blessing of sorts. So we've just been fiddling around with it for a few weeks, but um we we want to start this coffee company and um.

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  And, cause we're pretty sure we've got a, a great source. There's a guy down in Louisiana, who is the sole importer of this, of this coffee and it's grown in Honduras. And the only importer in the US is importing this coffee. And it's coming from Louisiana, which I love, you know, it's across the lake from New Orleans. I mean, going, you know, and so, uh, it's all sort of coming together. And, um, and so at eighty-two, soon to be eighty-three, you know, there were, there were times, uh, cause like my, my roommate from Tulane, who was eighty-three, a great deal older than me.

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  He was eighty-three and he's told me, he says, "Hey, man, you don't, you don't wanna be eighty-three. It's really rough."

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  So I said, "Oh, shucks. Hey, okay, so, um, anyhow, he's, he, uh, he's just telling me that it's not good." So they're a couple, uh, ever since I got, couldn't make, couldn't pass a hearing test, because I'm so goddamn old, you know? So I can't pass a hearing test, so I can no longer do what I love to do and be with the people I love to be. And, you know, I'd wake up in the morning and I, and I, I remember one morning I woke up and I looked on my, you know, just kinda looking over the side of my bed and I could see, I could see some dust balls

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  under this table near my bed and I said, "You know, that's probably about the most important thing you got on your list to do today is clean those goddamn puff balls up." And I said, "Hey, man, life's gotta be better than this. We gotta do something." And so, when we started talking about developing a coffee company, um, I, I'm really excited about it, you know, and I'm with, uh, I, probably one of those creative guys I know, is my fourth child. And, uh, he's artistic and comes up with great ideas and he's entrepreneurial in spirit and, uh...

• 1:57:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, hell yeah. We're gonna make a coffee company by golly. And so it's obviously we're just starting it. We think it's gonna be great. Well, we know it's gonna be great. But anyhow, that's what I'm doing now. I'm a coffee guy now. I'm kind of the Colonel Sanders of coffee.

• 1:58:11Jocko Willink?

  What's the name of the coffee company gonna be?

• 1:58:14Speaker 01

  Called Big Yellow Coffee.

• 1:58:15Jocko Willink?

  Big Yellow. What's that all about?

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Well, you weren't aware of it when you came up to us as we were out in the parking lot, but my van

• 1:58:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the van.

• 1:58:25Speaker 01

  is Big Yellow.

• 1:58:26Jocko Willink?

  Big Yellow.

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  And I've had that puppy since Dougie was a junior in high school. And so it's... So that... And you know, because like I say, the guy's artistic as hell. He designed the coffee bag for it and everything. It's the Big Yellow Coffee Company. And if you don't think the coffee is gonna go flying off the shelf, man, you haven't lived. It's gonna be great. I really, from what I know about coffee, I expect to know a lot more from now on, you know.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  The components sound good. I mean, this guy's the sole importer of coffee, of this particular coffee from Honduras. And the thing that's really significant about this coffee guy is that he's the only one that we're gonna buy coffee from. And we're... We don't... We're not gonna be like, you know, he's a sole...

• 1:59:33Jocko Willink?

  Distributor?

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  Just kind of a sole grower, right?

• 1:59:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the guy in Honduras.

• 1:59:41Speaker 01

  Origin, yes. Yeah, it's gonna be a single-origin source.

• 1:59:47Jocko Willink?

  Do we have a website yet?

• 1:59:50Speaker 01

  It's in the works.

• 1:59:51Jocko Willink?

  It's in the works.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:59:54Jocko Willink?

  What's the website?

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  BigYellowCoffee.com.

• 1:59:56Jocko Willink?

  BigYellowCoffee.com.

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if you can't get through right away, just be patient. You'll be able to get in.

• 2:00:07Jocko Willink?

  Well, it sounds like that brings us up to present date. Probably, probably a good place to stop. We have to give Echo.

• 2:00:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:16Jocko Willink?

  The opportunity.

• 2:00:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:17Jocko Willink?

  You know, I'm sure there's some, maybe some Hawaiian questions coming down the pipe.

• 2:00:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:00:20Speaker 02

  Sure. Very small but significant.

• 2:00:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, sure.

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  Wait, so the place up in Makawau that was a chart house?

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  No, no, well, it was, it was mine. It was called Makawau Steakhouse and I owned it myself.

• 2:00:32Speaker 02

  Makawau Upcountry, also known as Upcountry, Maui, by the way.

• 2:00:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:37Speaker 02

  Um, also, the, what was the name of your canoe club?

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  Hayalani. Hayalani Canoe Club.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  And then what did you teach at Puno?

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  Uh, I taught fifth grade for the first two years. And then my last year, I, I went from what, from the fifth grade to the academy and I taught ninth and 10th grade English there.

• 2:01:00Jocko Willink?

  Did Barack Obama go there? Did you teach Barack Obama?

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I was, I was gonna say, what was interesting is, uh, I, had I remained in first, teaching fifth grade, I would have, he, he came in that next fifth grade class where I went up to the academy. Which, uh, I, again, God, you know, for his, his sake, he probably.

• 2:01:24Jocko Willink?

  He was saved by the bell. He would end up a surfer somewhere.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, yeah, he may have been a great water guy, you know, who knows? But yeah, no, he, uh, he dodged a bullet.

• 2:01:38Speaker 02

  And then the Chuck Steakhouse and the outrigger, which outrigger is that? I mean, back in, cause now outrigger's everywhere.

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:45Speaker 02

  In Waikiki.

• 2:01:45Speaker 01

  There, there are a bunch.

• 2:01:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, nowadays?

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:49Speaker 02

  Every corner.

• 2:01:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, so the, at the, at the one right there and right there at Waikiki Beach.

• 2:01:55Speaker 02

  The main one where Dukes is now?

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, next, huh?

• 2:01:59Speaker 02

  There's a place called Dukes now.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a, a couple of floors above.

• 2:02:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  Where Dukes is.

• 2:02:04Speaker 02

  Okay, right on.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  And, uh, yeah, next to the Moana Hotel.

• 2:02:07Speaker 02

  Yep. That's where we stayed last time we went.

• 2:02:09Jocko Willink?

  No, there you go.

• 2:02:10Speaker 02

  Boom.

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, but Chuck, God, he's a, he'd be a great, he's another guy who, Chuck, Chuck Rolls, a guy that started Chuck Steakhouses.

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  Wonderful guy. I'm hoping he's still alive, but I, I don't know. He's a geezer.

• 2:02:27Jocko Willink?

  We'll, we'll leave it at we hope he's still alive. We don't have to follow up with a but on that one. We'll just call it, I hope he's still alive.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  Sure he's still alive.

• 2:02:34Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Awesome. Uh, Lance, you got any, any closing thoughts you want to close out with?

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  Just thank you very much for the opportunity. Appreciate it. Nice to meet you, Echo.

• 2:02:45Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:02:46Speaker 01

  And, and you, you too. But, uh,

• 2:02:51Speaker 01

  yeah, no, I guess that's all. I'm just grateful and, and thank you.

• 2:02:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, right, right on. Like I said, uh, it, it, I actually heard about you through the, this young generation of the, the kind of, I guess the, the generation behind me. I want to make myself sound old or make them sound young. They're all grown men.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:09Jocko Willink?

  That are, you know, deep into the teams now, but those were the guys that kind of told me about what you passed on to them. So, uh, it's awesome to have you on here and, and thanks for sharing some of those lessons learned and, um, thanks for your service and, and thanks for the service and sacrifice of, of your brother as well.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:27Jocko Willink?

  Um, you know, we, we owe everything to you guys that, that put in the work in the early days and, and created the, the tradition that we all try and uphold. So, thanks for joining us and thanks for everything you and your family have done.

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:03:44Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Lance Mann has left the building.

• 2:03:52Jocko Willink?

  Pretty awesome guy to hang out with for a couple hours.

• 2:03:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:55Jocko Willink?

  Uh, and by the way, just note, multiple times, multiple times, he kind of referred to himself as like decrepit and all this stuff.

• 2:04:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:05Jocko Willink?

  This dude's 83 years old, 82 years old, almost 83 years old. He is not decrepit.

• 2:04:11Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:04:11Jocko Willink?

  And he is in great shape. And I'm sure maybe he's not in as good shape as he was when he was 22 years old, going through UDT training, but, um, what an awesome guy and, you know, uh, living it.

• 2:04:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. You know how you can tell, like even young people, younger people, whatever, kind of just when they walk up to you and, you know, how they kind of talk and hold himself and walk from here to there. You can kind of tell, you know, you have a small little gauge of, oh, And yeah, when he rolls up, it's kinda like, this guy's pretty impressive for eighty-two, just how he's just rolling up.

• 2:04:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, actually, you just don't even think he's eighty-two, right?

• 2:04:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, yes.

• 2:04:48Jocko Willink?

  You think maybe he looks old for, oh, this guy looks pretty old for a fifty-one-year-old.

• 2:04:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:54Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 2:04:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:55Jocko Willink?

  That's kinda the impression you get, uh, from the way he's carrying himself. So definitely a, definitely a stud. And pretty cool, um, the fact that he's had this influence on like this younger generation. I hate, again, I'm, I feel like I sound like I'm being condescending when I call the guys kinda whatever behind me. Not right behind me, but you know, like ten years, fifteen years behind me in the teams, that's sort of the next gen. I don't even, I don't know if that means next generation. But this guy was a real mentor and inspiration to a bunch of those guys. So, uh, that's kinda how I heard about him and pretty cool to have him on here and, and talk through some of this stuff.

• 2:05:37Jocko Willink?

  And definitely, eh, you know, there's a couple of things I heard about him. It's like, one thing I heard about him, and we didn't bring this up again, you know, I look back and was like, god. Apparently he just never wears a wetsuit when surfing and stuff, which is, you know, this dude is, you know, we're all like cold, cold immersion. You know, I have an ice bath, you know, taking a, he's just going surfing for two hours with no wetsuit. Which, by the way, is cold in Southern California. It's cold, it's not warm. Hawaii is, is warm.

• 2:06:03Speaker 02

  Is warm.

• 2:06:04Jocko Willink?

  You don't really need a wetsuit. Did you ever wear a wetsuit when you were sponging in Hawaii?

• 2:06:08Speaker 02

  No, never, no.

• 2:06:09Jocko Willink?

  So you don't really need a wetsuit in Hawaii?

• 2:06:12Speaker 02

  Correction, you don't need a wetsuit.

• 2:06:14Jocko Willink?

  You don't, okay, you don't need a wetsuit in Hawaii?

• 2:06:16Speaker 02

  Especially when you compare to here. Even the coldest of, in Hawaii, it's kinda like, okay, I'll get out after three hours. Usually it's like eight, nine hours, you can be in the water, easy.

• 2:06:26Jocko Willink?

  That is so luxury, isn't it? Hawaii's kind of a little bit of paradise, isn't it, in a way?

• 2:06:31Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Can you imagine he moved from Baltimore to Hawaii?

• 2:06:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, very different.

• 2:06:35Jocko Willink?

  That's a game changer. So, uh, awesome, awesome to have him on here. Is, you know, uh, obviously it was difficult for him to talk about his brother, even after all these years. You know, his brother kinda followed his footsteps and, and ended up being killed in Vietnam. And, you know, I read a little bit about that, he, he, um... They were, they were basically in a, in a gunfight on an, on a ship or on a small boat. And um, they took some either mortars or rocket fire and ended up killing two SEALs.

• 2:07:16Jocko Willink?

  Lieutenant J G Dan Mann, who we talked about, but also a, a, another SEAL named, last name of Boston. And then another one named Neil who died of wounds later. And you know, that's another thing that you, you know, you get to hear this incredible life and these adventures that Lance Mann has been on and you, you, you, you know, we know, I know, he knows. That his brother didn't get those opportunities and that's something that uh, we all need to think about. You know, the, all the guys that didn't come home and the fact that we get this opportunity to go

• 2:07:57Jocko Willink?

  and surf without a wetsuit and go and become a lifeguard at 55 years old and go and open up restaurants and move around the world. And like all those things are opportunities that we have because of people that made the sacrifice for us. So.

• 2:08:16Jocko Willink?

  Definitely something to think about.

• 2:08:21Jocko Willink?

  With that, thanks for listening to the podcast. Uh, thanks for supporting, you know, we, we did feed Lance Mansom. He had, he had some go. He seemed fired up to it by it too. When he, he was a little surprised when he tasted it. He's like, oh, this is good.

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you notice, he didn't touch his water.

• 2:08:37Jocko Willink?

  No, he went all, he went all go, all the time.

• 2:08:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. He, it's weird. You ever, or I'm sitting here and listening to the whole deal and then you know how, I don't know. It's like this weird map. Maybe I'm alone on this. Maybe I'm not, but it's this weird map where it's like, you kind of think, oh yeah. When you're like in high school or whatever, it's like, that's a certain period of your life. And it's like, you've got your whole life ahead of you. Then you got your twenties. Okay. And then your thirties, you kind of hit your groove forties. And then once you hit like 50 ish, you kind of are like, okay, you're kind of almost like retirement.

• 2:09:09Jocko Willink?

  The destiny is already known.

• 2:09:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And you're kind of in retirement mode a little bit. You take your foot off the gas, you know? And then 60 is kind of like, you're straight up retired. You're cruising. That's kind of the map you kind of have maybe subconsciously. And bro, he's like talking about like, oh yeah, let me be a lifeguard and making it past the test. I'm like, bro, are you not realizing the map that we're all thinking about you? And then you think about it, oh wait, he just had a different kind of attitude. Where he was like, oh no, we're still, we're still going right now. Like it's not over, like we're still going or whatever. And you kind of consider it, oh wait, you can do that?

• 2:09:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:42Speaker 02

  And if you do, it's kind of, I mean, this is just kind of deduction really, but. Thinking man, if you have that attitude, it's kind of like you can live like a whole nother life in a way.

• 2:09:51Jocko Willink?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:09:52Speaker 02

  Where he's like eighty-two, bro, let's face it, bro, if I even lived to eighty-two. Bro, am I gonna be like, what the hell, you know, it feels like I'd be, I'd been done for like twenty years already. But him, he's just like mad that he's even smelling the dunniness, even though he's not, I know with the coffee thing.

• 2:10:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's, you know, you said, uh, you said it's not over, right? You, you ever seen like the, the kid in the wrestling tournament or the kid in the basketball game or whatever? And like, they're kind of losing.

• 2:10:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:22Jocko Willink?

  But there's one kid that he's not done yet, it's not over yet, right? In his mind, it's not over, I'm not done with this, we're not done with this game. And sometimes that kid can turn sparked and come back and make things happen and get the victory. Uh, it's pretty wild. And so that attitude of it's not, you know, when my daughter was wrestling.

• 2:10:45Jocko Willink?

  When she was in, trying to make it through the state. And in order to make it through the state, you gotta win first, second or third.

• 2:10:53Jocko Willink?

  And her first day, she lost a match. She won a couple, she won a few, she won quite a few matches, but she lost a match. Which means the next day, she was gonna have to win every single match.

• 2:11:06Jocko Willink?

  Which is hard to do, this is, this is now high level, this isn't playing around, right? You're trying to get to state championships in California, which is a big deal. And we're actually out in a place in the Imperial Valley of California called Brawley. And Brawley is a great athletic school and they have, cause it's out in the middle of the desert. These are tough, hardworking kids, their athletic programs are super hardcore. Because they have nothing else to do, they live in Brawley, right? You know, I got, I got, I got a friend that's from Brawley's in the teams and, you know, he's like, you're in Brawley, bro, that's what you're gonna do. You're just like, that's what you're gonna do, you're gonna fight, you're gonna wrestle, you're gonna play football, like that's what you're gonna do. So my daughter, she knows that, you know, that night, she's thinking. She if she loses one match, she's not going to state. This is her senior year, right?

• 2:11:54Jocko Willink?

  That night and she was underweight. So she wasn't even close to like the high end of her weight bracket. She probably could. She could have cut weight a few pounds and gone one waist down, but she didn't do that.

• 2:12:07Jocko Willink?

  So anyways, we like. She loses. She doesn't even talk to me on the way back to the hotel room. She's just angry. And and and not even not. She wasn't really angry. She was kind of like a little bit sad, you know? She still wasn't talking to me, wasn't talking to anybody. We get back there. I said, you want something to eat? And she says, yeah. I said, what do you want? She's like Pizza Hut. So we order a bunch of Pizza Hut, whatever. And.

• 2:12:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, she's still underweight, but she goes out the next day. And like I saw a little look in her face. That was like, it's not over yet. This isn't over. And she won her first match. And you could see almost like a. Sort of vibe coming over and then she won her next match and she won her next match. And then it wasn't her last match of the day, but. Her toughest match of the day where in Brawley and she's wrestling against a girl from Brawley. And these girls scrap. Respect to Brawley.

• 2:13:06Jocko Willink?

  And they had a brawl. Then my daughter won and and but you know, it's that attitude. And then she ended up going to states, but that attitude. Of it's not over yet.

• 2:13:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:18Jocko Willink?

  It's not over.

• 2:13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:19Jocko Willink?

  And to have that attitude with life. That's a little lesson learned for everybody today.

• 2:13:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:25Jocko Willink?

  A little lesson learned for everybody. It's not over.

• 2:13:28Speaker 02

  But I felt it. I felt like he was kind of going harder at 82 than I am right now. I kind of had that feeling.

• 2:13:35Jocko Willink?

  I'd say that's an accurate statement.

• 2:13:38Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. All right. Um, if you want to support the podcast, you want to support yourself, you want to stay in good shape. You want to get some some Lance Mann Jaco fuel in your system, go to Jacofuel.com. Get yourself some energy drinks that are actually good for you.

• 2:13:53Speaker 02

  Stay in good shape and in good health.

• 2:13:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes, good, good.

• 2:13:56Speaker 02

  Keep you right in the game.

• 2:13:57Jocko Willink?

  Point. Keep you right in the game across the board. Get yourself some protein. Look, we can't afford to go to Chart House every night. To get, right? Maybe when you're a E5 team guy like I was a E4 team guy going to Chart House. We go up there and get that prime rib, boy.

• 2:14:10Speaker 02

  So what is Chart House?

• 2:14:11Jocko Willink?

  It's a restaurant. It's a nice restaurant.

• 2:14:12Speaker 02

  Oh, restaurants.

• 2:14:13Jocko Willink?

  You didn't even know it was. No, it's a restaurant. It's a straight up restaurant. And there was one in Coronado that was on, it's a different restaurant now, but it was on, it was, it was like a boathouse. It was on the water. It was like a dock, basically. Real nice. And it was one of those things too, when you're young, like a young person's like a twenty, twenty year old kid isn't supposed to be going to the charred house because you don't have enough money for it unless you're in the teams and you're a young team guy. Then you're like up there ordering that twenty two dollar prime rib back in ninety one. Feel like you're kind of a boss, right? Kind of a boss like, hey, I'm rolling in the charred house. It was like a business person, right? There's people in there with like shirts, like real like whatever. Nice shirts and stuff, you know?

• 2:14:55Speaker 02

  So, so wait, this is the charred house. What's the dynamic when you go in there? Is it like a military feel? It's just more higher end.

• 2:15:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, it was created by team guys, right? So it's kind of chill, like the waiters and waitresses would be wearing like Hawaiian shirts. But they're also charging you know, like twenty nine dollars for a piece of meat, right? So it's, well, and that's back then. So like today it'd be the equivalent of like probably forty bucks, you know, fifty bucks per, per main course.

• 2:15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you're right. So like, if you're, if you don't have some, some money or whatever, that's gonna be.

• 2:15:32Jocko Willink?

  Unless you're a young guy in the teams, you have no expenses other than just what you're gonna eat. You get after it.

• 2:15:39Speaker 02

  Did you guys like know that it was kind of like has the team guy roots?

• 2:15:43Jocko Willink?

  I knew, I knew it had team guy roots, but no one, you know, I always thought, well, maybe someone's gonna be like, hey, are you guys, are you guys in the SEAL teams? No one ever said that to me, you know, they just kind of, which is pretty obvious. We're in this freaking SEAL teams. We're in corner, we're like literally five hundred meters from base. But I think maybe what's funny is I thought that the charred house, I thought that I was at like the first charred house in nineteen ninety. He's like, no, it started in nineteen sixty four. So I was way off base on that one.

• 2:16:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting too. He, and he didn't go as deep into it, his Kamaaina experience in Hawaii. But all those places, it's weird because.

• 2:16:21Speaker 02

  I kind of think where all the places he was talking about, like I know those places or whatever, but this is back in the day. So it's like different, you know, so it kind of has that contrast or whatever. When he was like outrigger, you know, the outrigger, but now bro outrigger is everywhere. But the main one, that's the one he was talking about. Yeah. You talking about that main one that you stay at by Dukes.

• 2:16:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've been to that one. It's kind of a hype scenario. They got a, they got a bar like on the beach situation. You know what I'm saying?

• 2:16:47Speaker 02

  That's where I proposed to my current wife, by the way.

• 2:16:50Jocko Willink?

  You know what? We had a weird scenario with my, my wife, the way things kind of finally got solidified. But when I finally got her a ring, let's say, when I finally got her a ring, I asked her to come out for dinner. We, we went out for dinner. Guess where we went to dinner?

• 2:17:06Speaker 02

  Chart House.

• 2:17:06Jocko Willink?

  We went to the Chart House. Not, not even the one in Coronado. We went to the one that was down by the pier or whatever in San Diego. So it was sort of an extra level of hype. It wasn't just going to Coronado. It was like, I'm going to take you extra level of hype. And I had that little, so I told her to get dressed up and what, whatever. Like, you know, I put on like a shirt, you know?

• 2:17:27Jocko Willink?

  Cause back in the day, it was hard to get a shirt on. Like a T-shirt was kind of hard, but like putting on a collared shirt was sort of a big deal. So she knew something was up.

• 2:17:35Speaker 02

  Some formal.

• 2:17:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, yep. Get yourself a Jocko Fuel, jockofuel.com. Get some, get some of the drinks from Wawa. Get some, any of it from the vitamin shop. That's going to help you out. Uh, get yourself some clothes. Get yourself some American made clothes. Straight up. Straight up.

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  Is there like a new factory jean or something, or am I just seeing like?

• 2:17:56Jocko Willink?

  Factory jean is the same jean we've always had. That's called the factory. Two types of jeans. Factory jean, Delta sixty-eight. Delta sixty-eight is lighter, a little thinner. Factory, heavy. So if you're in Michigan, or you're in Maine, and it's going to be winter time, get yourself a set of factory jeans. If you're in SoCal, or you're deploying to Vietnam, get yourself a pair of Delta sixty-eights. And all of it is made in America. All of it's made in America. And, and look, that's the way everything should be made. If you're an American, you should be buying something that's made in America. Why would you not do that? I'll tell you why. Cause you think, well, you know, I want to save fourteen dollars.

• 2:18:40Jocko Willink?

  But when you save that fourteen dollars, you're actually costing yourself infinitely more on the backside. When your country is crumbling and when you feel in your soul that you're enslaving human beings overseas.

• 2:18:53Speaker 02

  At the very least, keeping them.

• 2:18:55Jocko Willink?

  At the very least, keeping people enslaved overseas. So don't let that happen. Go to originusa.com, get yourself some boots, get yourself a gi, get yourself a gi, a comfy gi. No one even thought that gees were going to be comfortable.

• 2:19:08Speaker 02

  No, that wasn't.

• 2:19:09Jocko Willink?

  It was sort of, you just had to accept that gees were uncomfortable, that gees. Let's face it, you're gonna put a gi on, you're not happy.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  I felt that way.

• 2:19:18Jocko Willink?

  You're not happy putting on a gi until now. Now you put on a gi, you kind of smile a little bit.

• 2:19:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 2:19:24Speaker 02

  You are correct.

• 2:19:25Jocko Willink?

  You kind of smile a little bit. When you put on a, an origin gi, you kind of feel like, eh, oh, that felt, yeah. A little smile. You didn't think it was possible. You didn't think it was possible. It's more than possible. It's a reality.

• 2:19:36Speaker 02

  Yep, it's happening.

• 2:19:37Jocko Willink?

  Originusa.com, check some of that out.

• 2:19:40Speaker 02

  Also, other clothing, Jaco clothing. Go to jacostore.com, where you can represent. Discipline equals freedom. It's a big deal. Discipline equals freedom. That goes deep. I know you didn't know that when you made it up or whatever, but, but it goes deep.

• 2:19:56Jocko Willink?

  You know, Shirt Locker, even Leif Babin did not support the everyone must get stone t-shirt.

• 2:20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that one, that one is very controversial, but it's not for everybody.

• 2:20:08Jocko Willink?

  I did not know that it was gonna, I, I, to me, this is, this is, this is why I know, this is why I don't trust myself. This is why I always question myself. This is why I always think, oh, you know, I might not have the best idea. So for those of you don't know, we made a t-shirt. It's based on, it's for the Shirt Locker, Shirt Locker's a subscription thing. And you get a t-shirt every month and there, we, we can be a little bit more, let's say, uh, creative with the designs. We can take a little bit more risk. We can get a little bit wild. So this is an idea I had forever. I thought this was like the best selling t-shirt of all time. This is gonna, everyone's gonna want this one. Like we're gonna have to back order it. Like a bunch of crazy stuff's gonna happen. We're gonna see him on, on, uh, you know, the cover of, uh, fashion magazines throughout the world. So there's a story about Vietnam, guy has a stoner rifle. We used a weapon called the stoner,

• 2:20:53Jocko Willink?

  the stoner sixty-three in Vietnam, SEALs used it, that we were famous for using it. And a guy I knew got, went and picked up his weapon from the armory, and someone else that had taken the weapon to Vietnam on an alternate tour, had carved into the buttstock, "Everybody must get stoned." And I thought, oh, that's so cool. You know, it's the sixties, that's a song by Bob Dylan, I think, "Everybody must get stoned." So I thought, hey dude, of course, we'll make a t-shirt. And people just didn't get it, man. And it's not even just, some people don't like it because there's a machine gun on it. Some people don't like it because it says "get stoned" on it. You put those two things together, the only people that are gonna like it is like me and like

• 2:21:37Jocko Willink?

  one other person, I guess.

• 2:21:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, me, I like.

• 2:21:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so anyways, you're gonna roll the dice a little bit, I guess.

• 2:21:45Speaker 02

  Apparently. We never ran into that, but hey, man.

• 2:21:48Jocko Willink?

  That's the only one that's kind of gotten the neg, the negative feedback?

• 2:21:51Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. There's always gonna be your odd guy, like, you know, or person, whatever, who's like, not liking something. So, hey, and I dig it, it's not for everybody, we knew that going in, you know, but yeah, sometimes I guess, apparently, sometimes these shirts go hard, you know?

• 2:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So if you're feeling edgy, if you want to support, kind of just like, like, give the support, and you also want to take risks, because you're a risk taker, you're the kind of person that says, you know what, I'm in the game. You know what, you know what you're saying, you're something, it's not over. I'm not done wearing cool t-shirts. It's not over yet. You can, you can check out the shirt locker.

• 2:22:29Speaker 02

  Yep. And that is on jocko store.

• 2:22:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Subscribe to the podcast. Don't forget about Jocko Underground. We're putting, we're putting a word out on Jocko Underground, answering questions on that, jockounderground.com, if you want to check that out. We got a YouTube channel, putting videos up. You can see what Lance Mann looks like, can see what eighty-two should look like, if you're squared away, if you're PTing every day. So check that out, Psychological Warfare. We got flipsidecanvas.com, Dakota Meyer, got a bunch of books. Hey, I read, I kind of reread a section from By Water Beneath the Walls. I guess that might be bad planning or whatever, but that section about the UDTs and the psychology, I just had to kind of go with it again.

• 2:23:12Jocko Willink?

  But that book is Ben Milligan, uh, by Water Beneath the Walls, freaking great book. You know, I've written a bunch of books too, including a novel called Final Spin.

• 2:23:24Jocko Willink?

  Check those out, leadership books and whatnot. Kids books. If you haven't gotten all the kids you know, all the kids books that I've written, you're not a good person. You're not, you're not, you're not a good person, right? You're not, you don't care about them.

• 2:23:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's hard to connect those dots, you know, good person, no books, I understand fully.

• 2:23:46Jocko Willink?

  Wait, you're saying it's hard to connect those dots?

• 2:23:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, like if you, if you consider yourself a good person, meanwhile, you didn't do the book thing.

• 2:23:52Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:23:53Speaker 02

  It's hard.

• 2:23:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're, you're, you're hard, you're a hard time convincing me that you're a good person. When you're like, oh yeah, well, I know a bunch of kids, but I didn't get any of this life-changing book that's going to help them in every way and everything that they do in their life. No, when you look in the mirror, you should recognize you're a bad person. So don't do it. Get all these kids, get them, hand them out. Hand them out. I can't hand all these books out myself. What am I going to do? Like walk around America handing out books? No. You gotta do it. Get in the game. Buy them and give them to all these kids, help out all these kids. There you go, echelonfront.com. If you need help with leadership inside your organization, don't forget about extremeownership.com where we got online training. And if you want to help, service members, active and retire,

• 2:24:37Jocko Willink?

  active and retired service members, you want to help their families out, you want to help out Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, she's got a, a charity organization. It's at Americas Mighty Warriors.org. Also check out heroesandhorses.com where Micah Finn's got cool stuff going on, letting people get back to themselves.

• 2:24:58Jocko Willink?

  As far as the the social media thing, where the algorithm is hunting you. Look, just because there's bad things out there in the world, doesn't mean you need to like shy away from it, but you gotta be on your toes when you go in there, alright? So you go in there and check out echocharles.com, you check out jocko william.com. Be on your toes, watch out for the algorithm. It'll get you.

• 2:25:21Jocko Willink?

  And, uh, thanks once again. Thanks once again to Lance Mann for coming on and.

• 2:25:29Jocko Willink?

  And thanks to Dan Mann, his brother, who died on April 7th, 1967, in service to our great nation.

• 2:25:42Jocko Willink?

  We are grateful for your sacrifice and we will not forget.

• 2:25:48Jocko Willink?

  And on top of that, thanks to all the UDT frogmen of the past who laid down the foundation of the organization that this generation has done our best to uphold. And to the rest of the members, past and present of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines, who also continue to hold up the warrior traditions of our great nation. Thank you for your service and thanks also for the work done by our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret

• 2:26:30Jocko Willink?

  Service, all the first responders out there, thanks for your service here on the home front to keep us safe.

• 2:26:38Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else out there, let's keep it in mind that it's not over. It's not over. You got one shot, you got one go at this gig. And I recommend that you be like Lance Mann and live it.

• 2:27:04Jocko Willink?

  Go out there and live it.

• 2:27:08Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.