Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 112: Galore Galore!

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 112: Galore Galore! Georgia discussed the murder of Rachel Hoffman and Karen covered the death of Bonny Lee Bakley. Tune in for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode! Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello. Hello. And welcome. To Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is the show where we recap our early episodes with new case info and old feelings. Today, we're rewinding episode 112, which we named Galore, Galore. This episode came out on March 15, 2018. Right, let's listen to the intro of episode 112.

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi. Hello. Karen, welcome. Georgia. To. My. Favorite. Med. There we are. When we do the switch off thing, it immediately feels like I'm in second grade. I immediately want to ruin it. It's, do you mean like just say the line that isn't your line? Yeah, because I hate it. I know, it's really dumb. Like blow it all up to the moon, you know? Yeah, that's the feeling I get too. But also, it's so easy to follow. It is. Then you just know what to do. And it's catchy and there's a jingle. Kind of reminds me, it reminds me camp. Oh. My. Favorite. Camping. Camping stories.

• 2:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Um. Do you, oh, I have it right off the bat. Well, no. You want to write off the bat this thing? Corrections corner myself. Get out in front of even the show itself to correct yourself. At last, I just want to say, someone pointed out to me on Twitter last week during my murder, I said the word transvestite. I should have said transgender. And I think even in my mind, I wasn't totally like clear on the differences. Yeah, I think the person who wrote to us and lots of people were saying, what a good call in and not a call out. The person said, it's, the modern phrase is trans. Yeah, so I screwed that up and I 100% will do my best to move forward and fuck in, just do it right.

• 3:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, here's the thing, and it was such a lovely, lovely phrase tweet. But I have, I don't know. Like when someone says, you know, the common parlance is trans, I just am speaking from what I've known from when I heard people talk about it. So it's like, we do need those updates. Absolutely. And like, you know, I think I copied and pasted some fucking thing from Wikipedia and just was reading it and I need to stop and think about it when I'm doing shit like that. I know. You know, even though I think I'm like, it was so hard about being corrected when you think you're fucking liberal and woke as fuck and like on it. It's so hard to be like, I didn't screw up. I support everyone. Why don't you still screw up?

• 4:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's okay. And also, it's just, it's just that fine tuning of, it's not a massive screw up. It's just a person going, ugh, that just, I don't, it makes me feel discluded or it makes me feel bad. Or it's perpetuating a negative stereotype that I 100% don't want to be part of. No, no, no, there's no time for that. In, on this podcast, of all the things we're trying to do, that's the last fucking thing we're trying to do. Absolutely. Also, I will say, in that same vein, in a corrections vein, maybe not all the way in the corner, but somebody on Twitter was like, hey, have you guys ever talked about Wind River? And I was literally standing in my backyard, like doing one thing, and then I just wrote, we did, and it's sent. I wasn't even really thinking about it.

• 5:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I was like, I was getting four things done at once. We did. And then she took it as, like, she jokingly was like, I was chided, but then I, whatever. And then I, but I really meant this. I was like, I really didn't mean it that way. Of course it seemed that way. It's Twitter and whatever. But what I did like that she was bringing up, her point was, what, and our point was, when we talked about it on the podcast, is Wind River is such a great movie because it's finally bringing light to like the murder and missing indigenous women of America and also of Canada. Right. And then they mentioned this podcast that I had meant to mention a while ago and hadn't. But so the podcast is called Missing and Murdered. And season one, I listened to and loved it called Who,

• 5:49Karen Kilgariff?

  it was about, it was titled Who Killed Alberta Williams? And that was really good. And the new season just came out and this one's called Finding Cleo. And it's hosted by and like, you know, made by Connie Walker, who's an investigative reporter and an indigenous woman herself. Yeah. So it's really, it's really good. I'm going to listen to Finding Cleo now, but the first one, Who Killed Alberta Williams, was really good. Yeah, I can't wait to listen to. But you have to look up Missing and Murdered as the name. The name of it is Missing and Murdered, yeah. I like that because I was also going to say on Twitter and then I was like, never explain anything on Twitter. It's so pointless. But I wanted to say, like when we did our Vancouver show last, the last time we were on tour and we were in Vancouver,

• 6:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I wanted to do the Highway of Tears. But the, there are so many victims and there's no, there's kind of no single story. It's just all these disappearances and all these really sad stories. So it was like, I wanted to explain on Twitter, yeah, I've never tackled that because once I started looking into it, it was this expansive. And they each have their, they each should be their own episode. Like Alberta Williams in this one is one of the women from the Highway of Tears. But it has not, you know, it's, it maybe has nothing to do with any of the other women. And it's his own, it's like, you know, multi-part story itself. So it's so hard to. Each one of those cases should be, it's like, it's, it gets so vast, it's very much like The Grim Sleeper. Yeah.

• 7:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It had, it went on for so long that there are so many people that you're talking about that you can't not under, under like serve those victims and their stories. And then I was, I was going to do like three of the, three victims or one of the victims was, it was solved when I found out that it was this serial killer and it was caught in a really cool way. But then it's none of the women who this was solved about were indigenous. So then I was like, I'm going to only do the Highway of Tears with the non-indigenous women and that doesn't sound right. So I didn't do that one. Well, that's, I know it's kind of, yeah, that's not the point for what that story is. So it's very cool that there are people that are dedicating entire true crime podcasts to that area.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And thank you guys for, to the people who brought all that stuff up for us on Twitter. We appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Now, fun times in the sunshine. Let's go fun. Let's have some fun. Let's go to camp. We had a little campy kind of event because on the podcast, I said I wanted to take a tour of Jet Propulsion Laboratories, which is a place here in, very close to where we are right now in Pasadena, where they build things like the Mars Rover and things that they put on Mars and other planets. Mars is the only one I know. But, so in saying that on the podcast, we got some responses from people who actually worked at JPL

• 8:46Karen Kilgariff?

  who were like, I can give you a tour. And the person that I guess either Stephen picked or seemed the most credible, maybe was the most high end. Yeah. Like we got the guy. I was betting it, yeah. Yeah. Stephen was, he was only going for the superstars at JPL. We got a guy who is an engineer named Lou Gersh and he is in charge, all right, listen to this shit. He is in charge of Entry, Descent, and Landing Systems Analysis for the Europa Project. Europa being a moon of Jupiter. Sure. Which Georgia knew. She already knew that. Even though I didn't go because I was sick. That's right. It was me, it was Stephen, it was our friend Scotty Landis, and we took a full-on tour of this place.

• 9:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like this gorgeous college campus, but only smart people. Which, that's the way colleges should be. And did you see that guy? When we were walking in a building, there was a guy that walked out and he was wearing a total like Blues Brothers suit. But he had kind of like longish, like early 80s guy hair. And he was, I was like, oh, look at that rocket scientist. He's so cute. Like every, everywhere I looked, I was like, that's the most fascinating person. Like everyone just seemed so cool and smart and they were all working on putting things onto different planets. Oh my God. It was incredible. Can I say, can I tell you a love story? Sure. I know a girl named Nicolette and her. Sheridan.

• 10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Her like super gorgeous husband is a super smart rocket scientist. Loving it. I think he works at JPL. He was sending, when they started, first started dating, he was sending, listen, I'm getting all of this wrong. But essentially, he sends a thing to a planet. Maybe it was the moon. I don't remember. But. Is the moon a planet or is just our moon? A fucking rock. He sent it to a thing, to a place. And he fucking wrote her name on the machine that was landing on the moon or Jupiter or Mars. Nicolette. So it's going to be there. And it's, you know, it stays there forever. They can't send them back. So he wrote her name. Would you really like some?

• 10:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God, it's so beautiful. How sweet is that? I love it. All in all, just, it was an incredible experience. Lou was the best. He was the best guide. We got to see the coolest things. He's incredibly friendly, smart, cool guy. And his wife, Lindsay, is also a listener. So, hi, you guys, and thank you so, so much. We actually got to shop at the JPL gift store. Ooh. At the end, bought my dad a hat, got my niece a sweatshirt, got myself a sweatshirt. I was gonna buy you a shirt. And then I looked at it, I was like, this is cute, she liked this font. And I was like, really do it. And then I'm like, she will never wear this shirt. Like, this is not your style. You just wanted to spend money. I did. It was so fun to shop. And they had like, Stephen, you bought?

• 11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I bought, I bought space ice cream.

• 11:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I love that they haven't changed the package since we were children, right?

• 11:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's astronaut neon colors.

• 11:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Neapolitan ice cream, too. And how was it?

• 11:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It wasn't good.

• 11:52Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I took one bite and I turned to Karen and I was like, oh, this is bad.

• 11:57Georgia Hardstark?

  But it was like that thing of like, I would always see that and I'd want it. And of course, my dad or my mom would be like, no.

• 12:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And then I finally was like, I have my own money.

• 12:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. It's my life. They were right. They're just like, oh, yeah, this is what substitutes as ice cream in the furthest, darkest space. Because ice cream is good. Ice cream's good. So, anyway, the next time you hear about any kind of a, any rover of any type being landed on Europa, which is a moon of Jupiter. Mm-hmm. That's Lou. That's Lou, baby. Thanks, Lou. Lou and his team and everybody else at JPL, the coolest, the coolest scientists around. The coolest. And can we say, R.I.P. Stephen Hawking. Oh, very nice. Nice fold, fold in. And cap.

• 12:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you see my tweet where my dad texted me at 11, at 10:45 at night and goes, I read a thing where Stephen Hawking died. Amazing.

• 12:54Karen Kilgariff?

  What does that mean? It, he, I think he meant like, what an amazing life. He meant a bunch of stuff that he didn't write. Such a dad. It made me laugh so hard. Amazing. Where it's like, yeah, you mean dying, dying, being a human being. It is amazing. I love it. All right. I also found out, I got some information from my dad. My mom used to give my dad shit all the time because he used to have a Jewish girlfriend when he was in his twenties. Hey. And she, she would be like, I know you liked her more than me. She knew her name for some reason. It was like a running joke between them. And last night, we were talking, when I called my dad to console him about his amazement

• 13:35Karen Kilgariff?

  about Stephen Hawking's death. Somehow that came up. Oh, she, because he found out she was next door neighbors with, or he knew and told me, she was next door neighbors with Dick Van Dyke when she was growing up. Wow. And I'm like, oh, so she was like, rich, rich? And he goes, oh, yeah, they lived in Bel-Air. And I'm like, I go, Dad, I'm going there. You could have been rich, a rich kid. I could have been rich. I could have been half Jewish and half Irish, which is so badass. Yeah. Imagine. Yeah. The confidence and the guilt.

• 14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyway, so I told my dad, I texted my dad that I was going to find her address and go ring the doorbell and say that I was the family's long-lost daughter. And he wrote, don't embarrass me.

• 14:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God, I'm gonna embarrass my family so much on stage on Friday. I'm gonna do it anyways. It's not about them. No, it's not. It's not. It's about you. It's about me. Please focus on what's important. Me in a jumpsuit that doesn't look good on me. We're gonna get you the best outfit. You know what we're gonna do? We're gonna just get, you know what we're gonna do, Karen? We're gonna get you a big chunky necklace. We're gonna cinch it at the waist. We're gonna belt it. We're gonna belt it and cinch it. We're gonna get Spanx arm sleeves. That's fucking right. We're gonna wear, you're gonna wear like, long gloves up to your fucking tits. It's gonna be amazing. You know what we're gonna do? We're gonna send my tits out by themselves and just let them do the show. Opening number. Lead with the tits, ladies. Absolutely.

• 15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I actually thought of that, where I'm like, what if this is a show where I just go out, just LA style and be like, Angeline cleavage and a fan across my face. You could, if you have. Hold on a second. You know what we haven't talked about? What? Did you see the thing that someone posted on Twitter? And they're like, you were in the, oh, that British. I shouldn't want to talk about it. Oh, my God. It made me laugh my ass off. They said, you're in The Observer, some British, like, newspaper. And it was only a picture of Georgia. I know. And it's like, the best photo of me. It's such a good picture. Thank God. Well, you know what I was thinking? It's only me. It's hilarious. Why did that happen?

• 15:45Karen Kilgariff?

  One of a couple of reasons, but I don't think there's any pic, any, any decent picture of me where I'm standing like, full body, that I would be the same size as you and look normal next to you. But there's a really great photo that Robin Von Swing took of us, our like publicity photo. It wouldn't have fit in that lineup, because they were trying to fit those five people. It was like, five podcasts. And I look like I'm fucking hanging out with the Osbournes, too. You, you look like you are on a red carpet, like Hollywood style. I was. And when I looked at, for what? For this, for like, the food, you know, the food taste awards, like the food awards. And this is like, three years ago. And I clearly look like that's my best I'll ever be. I doubt it. No, you've got so much more ahead of you, girl. Thank you.

• 16:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I was, I have to say, I was insanely relieved. Because I was just like, I don't know a picture that I can imagine being put next to that picture, that I would be like, oh, great. My midsection is in that newspaper. But what's also really funny is Josie, I'm not gonna be able to remember her last name offhand, but she's a little bit further down. And she's the one that used, she's a British woman that used to be on Whose Line Is It Anyway? with Greg Proops and Ryan Stiles all the time, like, the original one. She's super.

• 17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Hold on. I want to say Josie Moran, but that's not right. And she is truly one of the. I took a photo of it. She's one of the funniest people on the planet. Hold on, hold on. And I wonder if the girl that tweeted it to us, because that's how I saw it, if she thought that that was me. Oh. I mean, I doubt it. Josie Lawrence. Josie Lawrence. Yeah. Is one of the best improvisers there is, and one of the funniest women on the planet. So, I was like, well, maybe she's mistaking us. Look how sassy I look in this. Yeah, I know, I know. Who is that girl? Good luck with your fucking podcast. All right, it's my turn. Ready? I wanna look like her. To receive, like, at your house, like, oh, I wanna look like her. No, it's such a good picture.

• 17:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm happy about that. Okay. I found a new, okay, I wonder if you've never heard of it, like, a new police crime drama. Hit me. On Netflix. Okay. I'm gonna get, I feel like, I wanted to text you over the weekend, because I've been sick and Vince was gone, so I just fucking binge watched this shit. And I was like, I'm gonna tell Karen. It's Norwegian. The break? No. It's Norwegian. The dark? No. Which is great, because you, you read it, it's subtitled, so you can eat crackers really loudly and you don't have to turn it louder, which I realized over the weekend how great that was. So, it's called Borderliner. Yes, I just started it. Oh, my God, how hot is the cop? It's crazy. And he's secret gay.

• 18:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Secret gay, which always. Making out with the other hottest guy, who's a lawyer. For some reason, I didn't see that coming. When you're watching a foreign show, I always, from watching so many of them, I'm like, I know what this usually contains. You're gonna set up like, the haggard mother that's still getting it all done and a cop. And then the female cop's gonna come along and she's hot and they're gonna make out. Yes. You just think you know all the tropes. Yeah. So, that, and that guy started kissing that other guy, like, we were only in it for two and a half minutes. Totally. It was shockingly hot. It was surprisingly exciting. He is the guy who plays hot gay cop, whose name I don't have and probably couldn't pronounce if I wanted to. Right. It's Vince Dochter's daughter.

• 19:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Is so beautiful. So, such a handsome cop guy. But anyways, I'm like, almost done with it. And it's really good. Shit keeps happening. Shit keeps happening, where I'm like, I would have just told already. Like, they keep getting themselves deeper and deeper. Oh, like, yeah, I know. Sometimes like, the line of, you can't suspend disbelief that long. But I get it where it's like, well, if I now tell, I'm in even more trouble than if I should have told in the beginning. Now I'm fucked. It needs to keep happening. Yeah. But I don't know. It's good. And there's a strong female lead who's like, on to everyone's lies and is just like, going for the truth. She's a fucking detective as well. Love it. Going for it.

• 19:53Karen Kilgariff?

  There's something about those foreign procedurals, and maybe it is the subtitles that I really love. Yeah, it's so much, I like it. They make it very clear. Yeah. I've spent all day by myself, typing on some, in some version, most of it with you. But just lots and lots of typing and writing in silence. Yeah. So, I'm really just getting these words up on their feet right now, just trying some stuff out. And I just keep saying things and then going like, don't, what? No. I spent the weekend alone and didn't, I left the house for 15 minutes, maybe, because Vince was gone, you know? And I like, didn't change my clothes. I didn't shower. I was just like, here's, and then it was a good reminder of like,

• 20:34Karen Kilgariff?

  here's what you're like alone. Not, not everyone, but I am a particularly bad single person. Yes. So, it was nice, a nice reminder. And then not talking, but then I realized I was talking, because I was just having whole conversations with my cats. Yes. You know? That's, that's where we go to. Narrating their lives. I mean, I start fake arguments just to entertain myself, where I'll be like, what are? You two doing in here and they're just laying there like watching me only with their eyes moving.

• 21:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's so fun.

• 21:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's, um, there's nothing like being a hermit.

• 21:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we, should we, we could just like do it.

• 21:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's just get into it. I, uh, I feel like I just had one more other thing to tell you, though. Oh, I was just gonna say, I'm really excited for LA show. We have to do an LA show in two days. I'm super excited, but I'm starting to get insanely nervous.

• 21:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so much higher stakes.

• 21:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 21:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Because people we know are going to be there.

• 21:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It feels like, it feels like we've done all these great shows with all these amazing people all around the country and have these amazing experiences.

• 21:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And they were all people we didn't know.

• 21:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And there's no way we can prove it.

• 21:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 21:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't matter that all that great stuff happened because now it's just like, now you just gotta put up or shut up in your hometown.

• 21:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gonna be like, some of my girlfriends are coming and my fucking mom and dad are coming and like my aunt might come and, and then all our agents are gonna be there. It's gonna be scary.

• 22:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like feels official and then it also feels like, you know.

• 22:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I also feel like last time we played LA and did the Orpheum, I didn't do, like, I was, I was new at it.

• 22:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 22:20Georgia Hardstark?

  So I wasn't on my game.

• 22:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a while ago. Yeah.

• 22:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And so I feel like I'm, this is now my time to prove to all these LA people that I don't suck anymore.

• 22:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is like, no pressure. As if you haven't been performing and posting live shows where you, it's in no way suck.

• 22:37Georgia Hardstark?

  But LA doesn't know that.

• 22:38Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I know. LA doesn't know anything. And that's the problem is that like, it's very, when we, when this podcast started to actually get popular in a way that, that actually mattered to me, where I was just like, nah, like in the beginning, I just didn't buy it. And you would show me things. I'd just be like, this is a bunch of bullshit.

• 22:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'd go, look. And you'd be like, stop getting excited.

• 22:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gonna end.

• 22:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gonna end.

• 23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't be, I just needed to curb your, I want, I didn't want to see the heartbreak. I just wanted to get it over with. Like, this thing is gonna fucking snap back on both of us so hard.

• 23:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You're gonna regret the day that you were happy.

• 23:12Karen Kilgariff?

  You will rue the day you asked me over. But to, so to have it, when something matters in LA, I just, it's like, I've lived here for 25 years and nothing fucking matters. Like, nothing punches through.

• 23:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 23:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So then to actually punch through, you think that's what you want to do, then it starts happening and you're like, oh my God.

• 23:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it happens like that for anyone with success with low self-esteem or with like low self-worth is when you get success, you doubt it so much that you're like, any kind of success, you're like, bullshit. Who's fuck, why are you fucking with me? You know? Instead of being like, this is great and I'm enjoying it.

• 23:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Because you planned for what, you planned for how it's gonna happen.

• 23:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, my therapist told me, I worship at the altar of doubt. And so anything good that happens, I'm like, no, and here's why. And it's good that I feel this way.

• 23:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause now I'm taking care of myself.

• 24:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It's just that it takes time to catch up. So then I feel like I'm just catching up in these last couple of days where I was like, shoot, I meant to lose 40 pounds. Oh, shoot, I meant to do this and that. Like, oh, shoot, we were gonna decorate the stage or whatever. Like, it felt, we were supposed to do some big, like, we're auditioning for our own show.

• 24:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's Wednesday and I just was like, maybe we should get our makeup done. And I emailed him, like, a friend and I'm like, she's gotta have a job that day. She's not gonna do it.

• 24:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing. I know it's gonna be fun. And I know that when I am nervous for something, which doesn't happen that often because I'm an old, been around the block, saddled.

• 24:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You're being very mean to yourself this episode. And I'm gonna have to

• 24:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Get some stuff out.

• 24:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Ask you to stop being mean to my friend.

• 24:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, all right. But I'm just saying, it's fun to be excited.

• 24:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 24:53Karen Kilgariff?

  At this late date. It's, it.

• 24:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gonna be, it's gonna be great. It's all people supporting us, except my mom. And it's just gonna be amazing.

• 25:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just gonna focus on Janet's face the whole time.

• 25:03Georgia Hardstark?

  If I don't do well, she'll be so disappointed in me.

• 25:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus.

• 25:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. I did have a corrections corner about using the term transvestite when I meant transgender. And again, apologies for that. You know, I feel like there were so many things we were learning in the first couple of years of this podcast.

• 25:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That I'm so glad we did.

• 25:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like too nowadays, with the full cultural dominance of drag, everybody knows their terminology and everybody's gotten a really good education. The people that care.

• 25:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Have gotten their education about stuff like this. But I think we've proven on this show that our hearts are in the right place and that we're totally willing to learn.

• 25:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And correct ourselves for sure. And, uh, yeah, it's been, we've been lucky that we've been given that grace. Also, on the missing and murdered Indigenous women, girls, and two-spirit people issue, there was a major update after this episode. Canada's National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls released its final report on June 3, 2019. And Connie Walker also continued doing major investigative podcast work after Missing and Murdered. Her podcast, Stolen: Surviving St. Michael's, won both a Pulitzer Prize and a Peabody Award in 2023. And it was the first podcast series to win both in the same year, which is so incredible.

• 26:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's amazing. Connie Walker's work on this topic, on like the native topics about the injustices of like First Nation tribes in this country, in Canada, just in general, but I think in Canada and specifically for Connie Walker is amazing. I've been trying to work on a story about residential schools for so long. And Maren and I have been working, and Molly, you know, all talking about it and working on it. But it is such a vast, like, the amount and extremity of abuse in those schools is so horrifying. It's like trying to put a concise story together, you know, from my point of view, it's taken forever. Cause we're just like, how do we do this in a way that's actually gonna be helpful to these conversations? So.

• 27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 27:16Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, until we figured out, definitely go support Connie Walker, listen to Stolen: Surviving St. Michael's, listen to Missing and Murdered. Like, a Native woman doing the work on behalf of her own people is, it's really powerful. Do you remember that LA show?

• 27:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I do.

• 27:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a good one. That was the one where the house lights were basically up the entire time. I could see every single person in the audience at that show.

• 27:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That makes it harder. That really makes it harder. And you can make eye contact with people in like the back.

• 27:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a really beautiful theater. It was very gold.

• 27:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And it kind of felt like very fancy that night. It was really fun.

• 27:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It was cool being downtown too, because like, it's so historic, you know, there's just, yeah, when we go in those old historic theaters, it makes it, it just fits our creepy ass haunted vibe so much. And then to do that in Los Angeles, of all places, is such an honor.

• 28:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So exciting. Okay. Well, let's get into Georgia's story about the murder of Rachel Hoffman.

• 28:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's you, right? Didn't I do it last time? Oh, yeah. I go first this time.

• 28:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 28:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Great. This is, um, this is a case that I brought up a while back and couldn't remember the name of it. And everyone told me, of course, that was listening. And I couldn't, I couldn't remember, but I was so obsessed with this when I first heard about it. So I'm so surprised I haven't done this one yet. Um, this is the murder of Rachel Hoffman.

• 28:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 28:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And the creation of Rachel's Law. And I heavily leaned on a 2012 New Yorker Magazine article called The Throwaways by Sarah Stillman. And like, she wrote the piece, it like won awards. It's so good.

• 29:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great.

• 29:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So she, listen, I just used a lot of her stuff.

• 29:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Cool.

• 29:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's, and thank you. Okay. So Rachel Morningstar Hoffman was born December 17, 1984. She was this bright, friendly, open, lovely person. Everyone who met her loved her. And by 20,008.

• 29:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so recently. Okay.

• 29:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. By 2008, so she's 23 years old. She had just graduated from Florida State University in Tallahassee, also where Ted Bundy.

• 29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Finished up?

• 29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Georgia Hardstark?

  With an undergraduate degree in criminal justice.

• 29:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 29:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And psychology.

• 29:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 29:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's also, she'd also interned as a mental health, at a mental health institute. And she had just been admitted to a master's program in mental health counseling, but she was also considering culinary school because she wanted to use cooking to connect with at-risk youth and like, and counsel them through cooking.

• 30:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 30:08Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like a fucking good person.

• 30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a great idea, too.

• 30:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, right. So picture like, young, pre, oh my God, what the fuck, Miley Cyrus. She kind of looked like that. Like, like little Hannah Montana before she transformed into Hannah. I don't know. I didn't watch the show, but.

• 30:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Long hair?

• 30:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like long, pretty red hair, cute face. She looked like, she looked like, like a hippie, like a hippie jock that you, you know, would know. And she liked going to like fast music festivals, but not like Coachella, you know, where with the fucking, not, she wasn't using cultural appropriation and going to like Phish concerts and jam bands and shit.

• 30:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Why are you saying that? Like, that's so much better. I mean, come on.

• 30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I would both rather stay home, but I'm not a 23-year-old, am I?

• 30:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not an either or. There's so many other options.

• 30:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You're right. She was Jewish, had been, you know, whatever. And she had a social media account for her cats. Her cat, whatever 2008 social media account was, she made one for her cat. She's just like.

• 31:09Karen Kilgariff?

  MySpace?

• 31:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, oh, MySpace. Um, but, but, but, but, she'd go to these music festivals with all her friends and she'd always wear this crazy purple fluffy hat. That was her thing.

• 31:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm. So it was Jeremy Racois appropriation.

• 31:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Exactly. So she was an only child and she was close to her parents, but what they didn't know was that she was in a court-ordered substance abuse program. Because, uh, in February of 2007, while she was a senior in college, police had pulled her over for speeding and found almost an ounce of pot in her car.

• 31:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 31:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Which isn't a lot of pot, right?

• 31:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think so.

• 31:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 31:46Karen Kilgariff?

  But, but don't drive around.

• 31:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no, no.

• 31:48Karen Kilgariff?

  At pot.

• 31:48Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, don't do it. Um, especially in Florida.

• 31:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God, no.

• 31:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean? Like, California, don't do it.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 31:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Florida, don't, don't do it.

• 31:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  So it required that she take regular drug testing, but so instead of being charged with anything, they just made her go to this court ordered substance abuse program.

• 32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  White.

• 32:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. She wasn't in prison. I mean, she, she didn't stay there or anything like that, but she had to go.

• 32:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And she was keeping that from her family?

• 32:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think they knew. I'm pretty sure they didn't know.

• 32:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 32:20Georgia Hardstark?

  She did smoke pot though regularly and she also sold in small quantities to her friends around campus. College shit.

• 32:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 32:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, not, I'm not fucking saying it's okay at all.

• 32:31Karen Kilgariff?

  But if you're wearing a big fuzzy hat, you're probably gonna smell, sell small amounts of.

• 32:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And smell it.

• 32:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're definitely smell like small amounts of pot.

• 32:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it just so happens that her neighbors, a year later in April 2008, smelled pot. It's funny that you segmented into that. And coming from her apartment and were like, called the cops. We're like, dude, you gotta check this house out. I think it's a drug house.

• 32:57Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 32:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Um, okay. And so.

• 33:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So really chill neighbors, cool people.

• 33:03Georgia Hardstark?

  The best neighbors.

• 33:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 33:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I just remember when we lived in our old place and our neighbors were like up in, up in our faces, like live so close to us. I once like yelled at some kid to be quiet because he was screaming his fucking head off and his mom yelled, I know what you guys do. Just because it smokes pot and she smelled it, you know? I was like, oh no.

• 33:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Good comeback.

• 33:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I get it.

• 33:27Karen Kilgariff?

  You're right. Your child should be able to scream as much as he wants because we smoke pot.

• 33:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, okay. Okay. So they, when they searched, they searched her apartment because of this and they found just under a quarter pound of weed, four ecstasy pills and two Valium pills. And I asked Vince, how baby, how much is a quarter pound of marijuana? And he like looked it up and told me and he said it would cost at that time around $800 to $1,000. So she's probably, it's intent to sell probably as well. You don't have that much pot.

• 33:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Because of this, she could face serious prison time for felony charges, including possession of cannabis with intent to sell and maintaining a drug house. So she's freaking the fuck out over this. She had just gotten fucking admitted to this master's program. You know, what am I gonna do? Blah, blah, blah. Um, the officer in charge at this point, Ryan Pender, knew that she was just a small time drug person supplying to her friends, wasn't a fucking kingpin or whatever.

• 34:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 34:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So offers to make her a deal. Uh, all she has to do is identify other marijuana dealers in town. Do you know this one?

• 34:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I feel like I have a shade of, of it, but um, oh my God.

• 34:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we go.

• 34:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 34:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Has to identify, she just has to identify other pot dealers in town and she'll get off. They won't even charge her with anything.

• 34:52Karen Kilgariff?

  The answer has to be no.

• 34:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Always know, I want a lawyer.

• 34:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't be a snitch.

• 34:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't be a snitch.

• 34:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't do it.

• 34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't trust that that's what's going to happen.

• 35:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. The, the concept of anonymity, please, from all movies and TV we know, that will be broken.

• 35:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, here we go.

• 35:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 35:09Georgia Hardstark?

  So, uh, she was like, no, I won't do that. Some of those people are her friends and she refused to snitch on her friends. Um, but then they were like, well, how about then instead you become a confidential informant, CI, they call them, in a drug sting sting operation, like a bigger one. And she thought that any charges would be reduced or even dropped. So she agreed to become a CI.

• 35:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 35:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So the next day, she first tried to set up, uh, another student at Florida State who was a small time campus dealer. And she felt so guilty about it that she called the guy and was, and told him what she had planned to do. She's just like a, like look at her photo. She's like a sweet baby angel. And not that it's okay, but she's clearly in her fucking head.

• 35:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Well, see, that's the thing is that idea that you're gonna, here's how I'm gonna solve things. Here, I'm, I'm gonna get a little extra spending money by not getting a job at Staples. What I'm gonna do is, is sell small amounts of reasonable pot.

• 36:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's like, that's fine, except for you are now in the drug world.

• 36:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 36:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's how things spin out past your control. Like you're just pretending that you will have control.

• 36:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And you keep doing that and you keep making bigger and bigger bets, like we were talking about, exactly like in Norwegian procedural dramas.

• 36:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 36:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Ask, always get a lawyer immediately.

• 36:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Get that lawyer, keep your mouth shut.

• 36:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Um, so the guy who she called and was like, I'm sorry, he, he forgave her, but also agreed to help her with police.

• 36:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 36:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Stuff. So he, the police had told Rachel at this point that run of the mill pot bus would not fucking suffice. Um, and they needed bigger dealers. So this was totally not Rachel's fucking thing. She didn't know bigger dealers.

• 36:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 36:58Georgia Hardstark?

  But the Florida, the student that she had called was like, I know someone. There's a dude at a car detailing shop near campus who he's seen dealing drugs and I, and he said, I bet he can hook you up. So she didn't even know this guy.

• 37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh no.

• 37:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So Rachel goes to the car shop and speaks with the guy. His name is Danilo Bradshaw. He's 23 and he, uh, gets his brother-in-law, Andre Green, who's 25, to help her as well. She lets them know she needs a bunch of cocaine, 1,500 ecstasy pills.

• 37:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh no.

• 37:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And as she described it, a quote, "small and pretty handgun."

• 37:42Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 37:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So, and they were like, why the fuck do you need, you little thing need a handgun? And she said, I'm a little Jewish girl. I need to protect myself. So this, I mean, she got caught with four ecstasy pills and they're giving her the total amount that they, that for all this would cost that they were gonna give her was $13,000.

• 38:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Huh.

• 38:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So this is an amount that is way beyond her level of comprehension as a drug person.

• 38:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. The thinking behind this of like, we're gonna get a mole and it's a person who is not truly in the drug world.

• 38:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 38:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Like it's such a sideways approach.

• 38:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So on the afternoon of when the drug bust was supposed to go down, when she was gonna bust them. So Rachel goes to the police headquarters and Officer Pender places a surveillance wire and recording device in her purse, which I guess is totally against standard procedures. They usually hide it more and it's not in her purse.

• 38:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Which also is weird that she had, would have to keep her purse on her the whole time.

• 38:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 38:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Which probably looks suspicious.

• 38:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So they gave her $13,000 in marked bills. Can you imagine carrying $13,000 around with you?

• 38:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I do it a lot. That's just, it's how I'm comfortable, just so I can get what I want.

• 38:54Georgia Hardstark?

  You always need cash.

• 38:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I need.

• 38:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You always do. I always have to borrow like dollar bills for the valet. For me, for some reason, I've never had dollar bills.

• 39:01Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what's really funny? I can't remember what happened, but I, something happened where I didn't have use of my ATM card. I'm sure I lost it. Or I just, a thing I often do is just entirely blank on the PIN. Like I'll just be standing there. I'll be like, no idea what that is.

• 39:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Use it every day. No idea.

• 39:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I've done that like twice. But so I keep, uh, somewhere in my home. Why would I ever say this? But I mean, I, I keep cash so that I can always have it. Because that's kind of my weird fear. So I also squirrel it away. Like just put, I'll put like $3 bills in my car somewhere.

• 39:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you remember where you keep all of it?

• 39:39Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no. It's just like, I don't think about it. I don't wanna look at it. It's just like, I know something is there just in case I need it.

• 39:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, they say like for the end days, you know, like you told, keep your gas tank full.

• 39:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Georgia Hardstark?

  But also hide money in your house.

• 39:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Hide money and make sure the money is gold doubloons because no cash money won't help you.

• 39:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you know, my fucking dad bought me silver. He's like, that's true. Silver, paper money's not gonna have any value during the end days.

• 40:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 40:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Silver will always have value.

• 40:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He thinks that's, that's what's gonna happen?

• 40:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 40:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Why doesn't he buy you a whole bunch of bananas? Cause that third Mad Max, fresh fruit was just the ultimate trading item.

• 40:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen's on to something.

• 40:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember? Just get, I don't know if bananas have seeds or if you have to grow a tree or whatever.

• 40:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Get a banana tree. There is a mini banana tree in this complex.

• 40:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that true?

• 40:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't imagine they're edible.

• 40:32Karen Kilgariff?

  But just build a little fence around it and say, please.

• 40:34Georgia Hardstark?

  This is mine.

• 40:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Put a posted note that says, this is my yogurt. Don't eat these bananas. I have a lemon tree, but that's in, that's just gonna give me a bunch of like canker sores.

• 40:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I want it. No, everyone's gonna need a, what's it called? You know?

• 40:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Citrus?

• 40:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but the vitamin C.

• 40:50Karen Kilgariff?

  For so they don't get scurvy?

• 40:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Then I have to build my fence out, be around my lemon tree now.

• 40:55Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're gonna drink your pool water.

• 40:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Frank already drinks the pool water all the time. Fucking Frank.

• 41:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Jacuzzi cat drinks the fucking pool water too.

• 41:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And they, they do it. I'm, I can guarantee you that the owner of Jacuzzi cat, they're, they have like a, one of those water things that has like a waterfall in it and they still won't drink that stuff.

• 41:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Animals, right?

• 41:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Am I right?

• 41:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Make them a MySpace page. My cats already have an Instagram account. Okay. So they, the, the police assure her that they're, that they would be watching her the entire time and listening. Uh, there were 19 law enforcement agents tracking her and a Drug Enforcement Administration Surveillance Plan, Plan or Plane was circling overhead. So they, she thought that they were, she was taken care of.

• 41:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 41:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's supposed to meet the guys, the drug dealers at a public park. And then all these weird things happen, like on her way there, or maybe she had met them and they're like, let's go to a different location, which she wasn't supposed to do. Um, they go to that location and then the agents had, you know, she had been breaking up because it was like an outdoor park. There's not a lot of cell service.

• 42:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It was not an indoor park.

• 42:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It was not an indoor park. Wow.

• 42:09Karen Kilgariff?

  There was not the biodome.

• 42:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It wasn't.

• 42:14Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the saddest thing. Her boyfriend, when she texted him that she's on her way, her boyfriend joked, texted, "I kinda like you, so be safe."

• 42:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 42:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So then she, so she loses contact with the officer while she's on her way to the second location. And by the time he hears from her again, she tells him that she's following them to another location. And this one's at the end of a dead end road. And before, so this is what Officer Pender says, before he tell her not to go, knowing that a dead end road is a really bad thing to be caught in, he loses contact with her completely again. But she didn't know that they had lost contact with her.

• 42:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because she's not a fucking cop. She's not a trained anything.

• 42:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 43:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh, she didn't know they lost contact?

• 43:02Georgia Hardstark?

  She didn't know that they couldn't even hear her wire. So how would she know?

• 43:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 43:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Because she had been on the cell phone with her, that dies. And she's like, well, I'm still wired. So, so she didn't know.

• 43:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And there was a helicopter at some point. So they must be monitoring me in some way.

• 43:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So at this point, officers begin frantically searching the area, trying to find her. And the DEA plane circles overhead, but there's like, because it's an outdoor park, there's all this dense brush ahead and overhead, so they can't see anything. By the time they find the road and the turnoff, Rachel and her car are gone, everyone's gone. And instead, they found a spent 25 caliber round and two live ammunition rounds, six cigarette butts, and a single black flip-flop, which Rachel had been wearing when she left the station.

• 43:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 43:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I remember reading about this when it happened in 2008. So I was like 28. And like, just being so sad, but also I was picturing her and how that, how, you know, when she knew something was going down and how awful that would have felt. But also, you know, I had dabbled in drugs before and how easily I, you know, she was this Jewish girl who was just fucking around and having this time in her life when she was trying something new and made bad decisions, which I totally did too.

• 44:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:24Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no reason I, I wouldn't have been in that situation as well.

• 44:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 44:27Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's, it's just.

• 44:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's the thing of, which, which happens to people of all walks of life all the time, which is, you did a bad, we caught you doing a very minor bad thing.

• 44:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Your life's ruined.

• 44:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Or now you have to get involved in this other thing that you, like, now you just have no choice. Now you're kind of our pawn.

• 44:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 44:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And just so frightening.

• 44:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Just that feeling of having no choice and no way to get out of a situation.

• 44:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:54Georgia Hardstark?

  You always do, even if it's fucking going to jail for nine months. You know, it happens.

• 45:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Take the hit like Henry Hill and just fucking do your time. And what am I saying? I would never.

• 45:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen's going out in a blaze.

• 45:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, no way. No way. I'm going back to jail. No way.

• 45:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So at this point, Rachel had been working as a CI for the police department for almost three weeks. That's it. And she, and yeah. So let's fucking veer off and talk about CIs for a minute. Rachel was just one. And this whole article, this amazing article by Sarah Stillman, has a lot of information about this. I'm just kind of picking some, some parts, obviously. So Rachel was just one of thousands of people every year that helped police build cases in exchange for leniency of their own cases, as we know. And it's estimated up to 80% of all drug cases in America involve CIs.

• 45:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Georgia Hardstark?

  That's crazy.

• 45:54Karen Kilgariff?

  80%?

• 45:55Georgia Hardstark?

  80%. And this is partly because police departments have these crazy budget issues. They don't have the kind of money to get undercover officers and untrained CIs are the only way they can bust these people. And it's a small, if it's like a small town, they know the cops. So everyone knows who the cops are. They're not going to send one of them in a fucking fake mustache and be like, I'll have some drugs, please.

• 46:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you can't just Donnie Brasco it up when you're in like, small town America.

• 46:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. But it also means that they're sending out untrained, sometimes juvenile, juvenile, juvenile.

• 46:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought you were gonna say sometimes Jewish.

• 46:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Sometimes even Jewish.

• 46:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you believe it? Occasionally, as young as 14 or 15.

• 46:35Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 46:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Sometimes addicted people to do, and place them as undercover officers.

• 46:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 46:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So another factor that came into play with this whole fucking fiasco is that, is the war on drugs.

• 46:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 46:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember our favorite fucking topic?

• 46:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 46:51Georgia Hardstark?

  In the mid 80s, Congress enacted federal sentencing guidelines that imposed harsh mandatory minimums for even fucking petty drug offenses, which means that some sentences for marijuana sales were longer than those for murder.

• 47:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 47:05Georgia Hardstark?

  It's horrifying.

• 47:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's ridiculous.

• 47:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And of course, that meant that the US prison population over the course of that decade doubled. And, and drug informants surged. But the problem with the CI system is that it's totally unreliable. It's usually young people from lower income communities, often black and Latino, who are under pressure to be informants because they face, you know, so much more if they get caught with these drugs. And if they get put to take to jail and, you know, they have no choice.

• 47:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 47:37Georgia Hardstark?

  But to do this. In one fucking insane case, LeBron Gaither, he's a 16 year old student at a public high school in Lebanon, Kentucky. So in a, uncharacteristic of him, he gets in an argument with his school's assistant principal and punches him in the face.

• 47:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 47:58Georgia Hardstark?

  He's taken into custody for juvenile assault. And without a lawyer or parent present, an officer from the Kentucky State Police tells him he could go to prison, but he, unless he agreed to become a local drug informant. So this isn't even a fucking drug charge. After a sting, LeBron had to testify before a grand jury against the drug dealer he'd set up, Jason Noel. Jason Noel then makes bail.

• 48:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah.

• 48:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And the very next day, the police send LeBron back to him to do another sting on the guy he had just testified against, thinking that he didn't know who was the snitch.

• 48:38Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 48:39Georgia Hardstark?

  So they sent LeBron wearing a wire to buy more drugs from this dude. It turns out that, of course, Jason Noel, the drug dealer, knew that LeBron was the one who was snitching on him because everyone finds out everything.

• 48:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Well, and also those drug dealers, it's their business to know.

• 48:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:57Karen Kilgariff?

  They have to be like, three steps ahead.

• 48:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And it's like, if it was another officer that was being sent out undercover, his officer buddies would fucking make sure he was safe. But it's just some person that they don't care about and are not, you know, it's not their business to make sure that this person is neither trained nor really safe.

• 49:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 49:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so, so detectives lose track of LeBron. And during the sting, and Jason Noel drives off with him, LeBron is tortured, beaten with a bat, shot, run over by a car, and dragged by a chain through the woods.

• 49:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah.

• 49:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And dies. And it wasn't until 2014, so this was in, I think it's 98, I didn't write it down. 2014, 18 years after his death.

• 49:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:47Georgia Hardstark?

  What's the math?

• 49:48Karen Kilgariff?

  No idea.

• 49:49Georgia Hardstark?

  The Supreme Court ruled in favor of his, so they fucking ruled in favor of his family in wrongful death. It got over fucking turned, which is so frustrating. Then finally, the Supreme Court overturned that overturning. And in his wrongful death suit, and they're awarded $148,000. Which is not enough.

• 50:09Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 50:10Georgia Hardstark?

  None of it is enough, obviously.

• 50:12Karen Kilgariff?

  But I bet you that's that thing of when they're, they've built a system around this kind of, like, these kind of setups.

• 50:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So when that system crumbles, they have to make sure people can't then retroactively sue them.

• 50:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 50:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Because there could be so many people that could do that.

• 50:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you, I mean, people tweet these things on Twitter all the time where the, like in Californian places where drugs, you know, pot's legal, or is becoming legal or whatever, there's these people who are like, here's this woman who made $3 million in her new pot business of making edibles. Aren't these cute? And then it's like, and here's this black teenager who was sent to jail for 50 years.

• 50:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they dealt pot.

• 50:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's the, like, there's somebody who tweets it all the time, but it's really mind blowing of like, that, that white cultural filter of, when white people make pot for each other, it's cool because we have cancer and we have pain.

• 51:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And CBD oil and blah, blah, blah. And when black people deal pot, you're a criminal and you should be, you should go away to jail forever. And it's super fucked up.

• 51:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, and then in a, in a couple of years, in a decade, and like, when pot is decriminalized everywhere, if we're gonna look back and be horrified.

• 51:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 51:24Georgia Hardstark?

  At how we've been treating people who, A, are addicted and smoke pot. And, I mean, more than anything, that's the problem, is you need to treat the people who are addicted to drugs and need help, rather than.

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I wouldn't prioritize pot in that, because that's, so many people are able to live their lives doing pot. There's people who are on OxyContin who drive like, city buses and shit. Like, there's an OxyContin problem in this country that's, that's ravaging, like, certain states. And I mean, that's, you know, the war on drugs is almost like bit itself in the ass. Because now we're, now we just have pharmaceutical companies that are like, oh, our drugs are fine.

• 52:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't do those drugs.

• 52:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And will pay the doctors money if they prescribe them, even though they're not necessary. And they know they're addictive. And we're lying to you about how fucking addictive they are.

• 52:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm. It's very dark.

• 52:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's very dark.

• 52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fucked.

• 52:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I watch Intervention.

• 52:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna watch all those shows.

• 52:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, okay. There's also a case, and this, so LeBron was African American. Shelly Hilliard, she's an African American teen from Detroit, and she was caught with half an ounce of marijuana, which is not a lot, threatened with jail time. But it was especially scary for her because she is, is trans. And so she would have been sent to a male prison.

• 52:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 52:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is super scary for her.

• 52:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 52:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So, so she agrees to become a CI. They set her up to set up her drug dealer. He finds out and ultimately strangles, mutilates, burns, and dismembers Shelly's body.

• 52:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Because she set him up. One witness in the murder case testifies that the police had revealed Shelly's identity to her dealer.

• 53:07Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 53:08Georgia Hardstark?

  All for an ounce of weed. I mean, I know. Okay, back to Rachel. Okay. So the morning after her disappearance, she's disappeared. The cops call her parents and they're like, hey, have you seen Rachel? Do you know where she is?

• 53:24Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 53:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And they don't even, yeah. So they're like, what the fuck? They go to Tallahassee. They're only told that Rachel is missing, not that she was a CI. Or the circumstances of her disappearance. They don't tell her, them, her parents, anything. They go back to Rachel's apartment to wait and, you know, for next steps or whatever. They turn on the news and that's when they discover that she had, quote, "provided assistance during a police, police operation."

• 53:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But they find out on TV.

• 53:50Georgia Hardstark?

  On the TV and that then they find out that they, officials suspect foul play is going on. So they didn't even know that there was foul play.

• 54:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So then on May 9th, 2008, after a two day search after Rachel disappears, the two suspects are caught near Orlando and they lead police to a Dry Creek bed in rural Taylor County, which is southeast of Tallahassee, where Rachel's body is found.

• 54:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 54:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It turns out Rachel, and then it turns out that the two drug dealers had fucking pegged her as a mark from the beginning. And they had never intended to sell her any drugs. All the ecstasy was fucking aspirin.

• 54:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 54:31Georgia Hardstark?

  They were gonna trick her to begin with. So it was even a stupid fucking thing to begin with. And then it's, it's totally, it's not totally clear because no one knows exactly what happened. But it's thought that they found the wire in her purse and freaked the fuck out. They shot her five times in the head and chest. So at a press conference at the fucking scene, while her body is still there, Officer Dave McCroney, McCraneey of the Tallahassee Police Department says, "At some, quote, "At some point during the investigation, she chose not to follow the instructions. She met Green and Bradshaw on her own. That meeting ultimately resulted in her murder." So they're immediately saying it was her own fault because she went to another location.

• 55:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is like, can you imagine if she went to one location? They were like, let's go to another one. And she was like, no, and refused to.

• 55:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 55:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And she thinks there's a plane, there's 19 officers, she's being followed.

• 55:25Karen Kilgariff?

  She's never done this before.

• 55:26Georgia Hardstark?

  She's never done this before.

• 55:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And friends and family of Rachel are fucking pissed that the police were trying to portray her also as a hardcore drug dealer, like criminal, even though she had never been convicted of any crimes. And in the media, and that because she didn't follow directions, her murder was her own fault. That's what they were trying to make it seem.

• 55:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Rachel's parents are fucking pissed. So Irv Hoffman and Margie Weiss, they decide to put all their energy into making policy changes to the way CI's are used. So they wanted answers to questions like, why was Rachel used in such a high risk police sting? When she had no training? Why was she sent to buy a semi-automatic pistol when she had never even fired a fucking weapon before? Why was she pressured into taking part in the, in all of this before she consulted a lawyer? You know, and they're also not read Miranda rights and not given their amendment fucking things because they're not under arrest, you know?

• 56:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right. So it's basically like, look, if you want this to go away.

• 56:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Like it's, it's under the table type of deal.

• 56:30Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not under arrest, so you, maybe they don't think to ask for a lawyer. They want policy changes to the program, like not using people in drug treatment programs, which makes sense because part of being in a drug treatment program is you're not allowed to hang out and associate with people who are dealing and doing drugs.

• 56:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 56:48Georgia Hardstark?

  In the first place. And that nonviolent, low level drug offenders like Rachel should not be used in stings targeting traffickers with histories of violence.

• 56:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Additionally, CI's should be given the right to counsel. That was their thoughts. And then they found out that California was one of the few states that had any rules governing the use of teenage informants and prohibited recruits younger than 13. Which like, isn't a great, like that's.

• 57:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like, cut it off at junior high.

• 57:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Like that, and they're the best example of doing well.

• 57:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 57:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I was 13 when I was using drugs and they could have fucking had me rat on all those kids. I was.

• 57:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, when you're 13, like, oh, yeah, that's not good. Like that idea that you're just gonna like, yeah, yep, we're gonna blackmail this, this like.

• 57:39Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna blackmail this teenager to get another teenager, to get the, whatever year old who sells a little more pot in this town, who sells a little more pot in this town. Which is like, you're not getting, you're not getting one off the street who's a danger. You're fucking just perpetuating this thing of, you know, then these kids get out of prison and they can't get a job because they have a record. And so California, 13, da, da, da, da, da. That rule had been put into place after 17-year-old Chad McDonald was brutally murdered and his 15-year-old girlfriend raped and shot in retaliation for Chad's work as a low, low, level drug CI in 1998.

• 58:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 58:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So they had made this kid, Chad, be a CI, but everyone knew he was dealing meth and doing meth at the time. And the, and the police actually knew that too, but still used him. And everyone knew he was a snitch. And that still happened. Okay. So Rachel's parents began working on Rachel's law. And they got the father of one of Rachel's friends was a Florida attorney named Lance Block. He agreed to work pro bono to help them. And on May 7th, 2009, one year af, on the one year anniversary of Rachel's murder, Rachel's law is signed by the governor of Florida, but it's stripped of so many provisions. It's so basic.

• 58:58Georgia Hardstark?

  But it does establish new guidelines for law enforcement when dealing with confidential informants. So it does start the conversation of changing the way it's done.

• 59:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Good.

• 59:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's the first comprehensive legislate, legislation of its kind in the nation. And they're still working to get policy reforms on a national level. So they're still fucking working on it. And in 2012, in a wrongful death lawsuit, Rachel's parents won 2.6 million settlement from the city of Tallahassee, along with a formal apology.

• 59:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 59:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds way different than what LeBron got.

• 59:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, of course.

• 59:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Of the police department's conduct, the grand jury, who are not like Judge Judy, and they don't fucking usually tell people what, you know what I mean?

• 59:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:45Georgia Hardstark?

  They said, "Letting, quote, "Letting a young, immature woman get into a car by herself with $13,000 to go off and meet two convicted felons that they knew were bringing at least one firearm with them was unconsc, was an unconscionable decision that cost Ms. Hoffman her life." And an internal affairs investigation said that police officers had committed at least 21 violations in nine separate policies with this case.

• 1:00:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:00:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So Green and Bradshaw are now serving life sentences for the murder of Rachel Hoffman. And they, her, I, I think her parents put together an annual music and arts festival. Called the Purple Hatters Ball, because remember she wore that purple hat?

• 1:00:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's created to celebrate the memory of Rachel. It's fucking her favorite jam bands and it's like face painting and all these lovely things. And everyone wears purple. And the next festival is in Live Oak, Florida, this June, first and second of 2018. So murderinos. And she was a fucking criminal justice major. So you know she was in a true crime, probably. So that was the murder of Rachel Hoffman.

• 1:01:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing. So sad.

• 1:01:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So sad.

• 1:01:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And frustrating.

• 1:01:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Frustrating. Yeah.

• 1:01:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. Do you have any updates?

• 1:01:14Georgia Hardstark?

  No updates, but I was just thinking about reading this story again, or listening to the story again, how cool that this podcast was for us to cover these cases that had been in our heads for so long and had nowhere to go. Because this is one of those cases where I read about it and read about it. And I was like, what the fuck? I want to talk to someone about this. And then being able to cover it is just like the whole point, I guess, but.

• 1:01:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It feels like you're getting it out there, making sure people know about it.

• 1:01:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because it's just so fucking corrupt and fucked up and sad. And, you know, those stories where you're like, I could see that happening to me or I could see how that would happen. And it's just getting her story out.

• 1:01:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's important.

• 1:01:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And hoping it never happens again. But all right, let's get into Karen's story. This is a big one, the death of Bonny Lee Bakely.

• 1:02:10Karen Kilgariff?

  911, what's your emergency?

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  Please help us. They're everywhere.

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  We think they're murder warrants. 911 Nashville returns.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 1:02:22Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:02:26Speaker 03

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 1:02:30Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

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• 1:03:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so this, I'm doing this story this week because I mentioned it last time. It's the murder of Bonnie Lee Bakely.

• 1:03:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:03:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And, and the, you know, eventual trial of famous Hollywood actor, Robert Blake.

• 1:03:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck yes, Karen.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And it centers around one of the most popular and exciting Italian restaurants in the valley. Vitello's.

• 1:04:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gone, right?

• 1:04:03Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I think they redid it. It's still there.

• 1:04:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Okay. It's just totally different now because it used to be like divey.

• 1:04:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it used to be like, you know what it was? It was like clearly, it was like built in the 60s, 70s, probably early 70s, I would say. So the inside was like these big nogahide booths that were like red, red plastic leather.

• 1:04:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:04:26Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a huge like wall, you know, fresco or whatever you want to call it.

• 1:04:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly right.

• 1:04:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Of like, I don't know, I can't remember if it was like Venice.

• 1:04:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And grapes are every, grapes draped on everything and they're dusty because no one are cleaning them.

• 1:04:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, like literal, like plastic grapes, like look at the bounty of Milan or I mean, wherever.

• 1:04:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And they have like a house, a glass of house Chianti for $3 or whatever.

• 1:04:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And they have those like melty red candles. It's just the whole, it's exactly like the classic Italian restaurant. And the food, like the garlic bread is just a big loaf of sourdough cut in half with garlic on it.

• 1:05:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I love old school places like this so fucking much I want to cry.

• 1:05:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's, you know exactly what you're going to get. And Vitello's is good food.

• 1:05:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it? Because I don't even care if it's like a, if it's the fucking ambiance is on point, I'm good.

• 1:05:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, do you like opera singers? Because they have that.

• 1:05:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 1:05:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, they'll have, all of a sudden an opera singer will bust out singing.

• 1:05:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I tell you something really quickly? Do you know the one that's just like this on Vermont called, Steven? You know, hold on, it's on Vermont.

• 1:05:38Karen Kilgariff?

  The Dresden?

• 1:05:38Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's on Vermont across from the House of Pies. We go there, Vincent and I used to go there.

• 1:05:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, um, we used to order pizza from there when I lived on Alexandria.

• 1:05:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, hold on, cut this.

• 1:05:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like Domino's, it's like.

• 1:05:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not Domino's.

• 1:05:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, I mean, no, not Domino's, but like, um.

• 1:05:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It's called.

• 1:05:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Does it start with a P?

• 1:05:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Chali?

• 1:06:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, we can cut this out. Oh, why am I doing this?

• 1:06:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Like Pedrino's. Palermo's, that's right.

• 1:06:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Leave this in.

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Palermo's.

• 1:06:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Leave it in.

• 1:06:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Leave it in.

• 1:06:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Palermo's, just like that. Also, when you go in and you're waiting for your table, you can get a glass of like dollar boxed wine too. It's like the best. So one time Vincent went there the first time, we're like, this place is amazing. And it was a Friday night, so they had their, a guy with a, um, what are they called?

• 1:06:28Karen Kilgariff?

  An accordion?

• 1:06:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Accordion, walking around singing at tables. And I go, oh my God, that guy fucking was the entertainment at my brother's bar mitzvah.

• 1:06:37Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:06:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I was like, is your name fucking Israel? Whatever it was. And he was like freaking out too.

• 1:06:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was.

• 1:06:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It was him. And I took a photo of him and he's like, I remember your brother. No, you don't.

• 1:06:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's amazing. No, you know what it is? It's the knock chain hometown restaurant in Petaluma. It's, it's Volpi's where we go with my family. And half of it is the original grocery store from the 20s.

• 1:07:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 1:07:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That they took the like counter out and put in tables so that you're sitting in the old grocery store.

• 1:07:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm dying.

• 1:07:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really awesome. And that's up the street from that hotel, Petaluma Hotel I want you to stay at.

• 1:07:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm going to come with you to Petaluma one day.

• 1:07:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You would, I think you'd have.

• 1:07:19Georgia Hardstark?

  When we do our Sacramento show, we should stay a night.

• 1:07:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We can stay at Laura's.

• 1:07:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:07:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally. Um, but anyway, that's, that's, so that's Vitello's. It's, it's neighborhood-y, it's very Italian, like it's, it's, if you like kiss your fingers, you know, style Italian bullshit. That's, it's there for you.

• 1:07:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that their saying?

• 1:07:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's actually painted on the sign. If you like kiss your finger style Italian bullshit, this is your jam, maro.

• 1:07:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So this was the play, okay, so let's just get into this fucking thing because it's so insane. So we'll just talk first about Robert Blake.

• 1:07:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:07:58Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a famous actor and up until this point, he was kind of one of those, he was like a Hollywood stalwart, I would say. He started, he was one of the kids on Our Gang.

• 1:08:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, really?

• 1:08:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he was in the Little Rascals original, they called them the film series.

• 1:08:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, I didn't know that.

• 1:08:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And it was basically, he grew, he was born in Nutley, New Jersey to a vaudeville family.

• 1:08:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:08:21Karen Kilgariff?

  His father was an actor and an alcoholic, abusive, an asshole. Mom, unfeeling, and the three siblings, they had a little, uh, like a vaudeville show with the little kids called The Three Little Hillbillies.

• 1:08:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Put them to work.

• 1:08:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? So they, he's, and he described his childhood as feeling like he was like a, like a monkey with a monkey grinder. Like he was just out there begging for change around town in Nutley, New Jersey, which is horrifying.

• 1:08:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, I got all of the things I'm telling you right now from a show that I couldn't love the title of more, Rich and Acquitted. So spoiler alert.

• 1:09:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, now we know.

• 1:09:05Karen Kilgariff?

  But I mean, yeah, but we knew because this was a famous case anyway.

• 1:09:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, why didn't that show win an Emmy's?

• 1:09:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's so funny because it's, when I, when I looked this up on YouTube, there's like a whole, there's a whole realm of Rich and Acquitted. And it, and they're real, because I, when I first started listening to it, I was like, God, they're being real judgy about like money. And they keep talking about his money. And then it's basically talking about how when you have money, the entire justice system works totally differently for you.

• 1:09:33Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure.

• 1:09:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And the whole approach and strategy to the justice system. So, system, I'm not drunk. So, so.

• 1:09:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven is.

• 1:09:43Karen Kilgariff?

  The Three Little Hillbillies have, uh, you know, minor success in Nutley, New Jersey and the surrounding area. So then, but it's, it's the mid 30s. So because it's after the depression, the movie business is exploding. Everyone's like, I've got, I do have 25 extra cents. I want to spend it on entertainment. I want things to be fun. I want to go and like watch the Zig Phil Follies or whatever, something big in a, in a movie theater and have a good time. So, um, his father, uh, moves the whole family out to Hollywood. Cause he thinks he's going to be the movie star. Bad news. They're so poor, they sleep in the car, you know, it's really hard.

• 1:10:25Karen Kilgariff?

  But the father gets a job in a hardware store and, uh, his, Mickey was his name at the time. Mickey Gubatosi was his original name.

• 1:10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Is Robert Blake's name?

• 1:10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Is Robert Blake's real name.

• 1:10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Honey.

• 1:10:38Karen Kilgariff?

  He was born as Mickey Gubatosi. Mickey Gubatosi, uh, he's five years old when he gets the job on the Our Gang series.

• 1:10:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:10:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And he starts as an extra and they showed clips on the show and he is the cutest. You see him, he's got this little twinkle in his eye, but he's also like, he's like a little tough guy. And it's so cute. And then with all, I mean, Our Gang, if you go back, if you ever have a day, a free day and you just want to have some dumb fun. The Our Gang series was the cutest, sweetest thing and all those little kids were really talented. Now there is extreme fucking racism because it was the 30s.

• 1:11:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16Karen Kilgariff?

  But the cool thing was, or I won't say cool, but the thing that made it slightly different was that Buckwheat was one of their friends and hung around.

• 1:11:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 1:11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  But you know, there's also, as anything from, from before.

• 1:11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  From our lives.

• 1:11:31Karen Kilgariff?

  95, it's, you know, a different time. Anyhow, so he basically, he's the one that makes it big. And he, from, um, from, uh, Our Gang, um, when that's over, he kind of like, it basically emancipates himself, runs away from home. He joins the army. Um, he ends up marrying a woman named Sandra Kerr. He has two kids with her, starts his family. It looks like he's about to fade into obscurity as like a character actor that like was a child actor, you know?

• 1:12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Because people, it was really cool. They had interviews with like other little kids that had been on that series that grew up to also be actors. So you could recognize them as they were talking and they were talking about how Robert Blake as a child actor was really good. He was a really good actor. He was a really serious child. Like he was there to like kill it.

• 1:12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is very.

• 1:12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  He was taking it seriously.

• 1:12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 1:12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Not just because his parents wanted him to.

• 1:12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Not just because he would get the shit beaten out of him when he went home. But, but it's just that thing where you know, like when those, when little kids have it, that kind of like, why am I looking at that kid? There's six kids and that's the one that's caught my eye. He was that. So, um, right as he begins to fade into obscurity, he gets that part and in cold blood.

• 1:12:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:12:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And if you haven't seen the movie that Robert Blake stars, Robert Blake stars as, you know, one of the two killers in, in Cold Blood. And he's so good and it's really, I only saw a clip of it. I've never seen the entire movie start to finish.

• 1:13:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's really amazing.

• 1:13:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I watched it, but didn't realize it was him and you don't watch it again.

• 1:13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because it's old. It's like a thing you'd see on AMC.

• 1:13:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:11Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's really good. Also, and then it started making me think of how much I loved the version with Toby, um, that British actor.

• 1:13:19Georgia Hardstark?

  McGuire.

• 1:13:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone make that, please.

• 1:13:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That short British actor that's in, he was in tons, he's been in tons of stuff. He's so good. And he plays Truman Capote.

• 1:13:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:13:36Karen Kilgariff?

  You remember that one? And they go out to start interviewing the families. It shows how Truman Capote wrote that book.

• 1:13:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but that wasn't him. That was, uh, what's his face?

• 1:13:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Philip Seymour Hoffman did one of a version. And then there was a, so there was one with Philip Seymour Hoffman. And there was another one with Sandra Bullock and Toby.

• 1:13:55Georgia Hardstark?

  McGuire.

• 1:13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  No, British Toby, British Toby. Steven's gonna find it.

• 1:14:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven.

• 1:14:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Once he's done grooming his mustache. Steven, Toby.

• 1:14:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Keith.

• 1:14:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Toby Jones.

• 1:14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Don't know who that is.

• 1:14:11Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:14:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah. But he's such a good actor. He's in everything.

• 1:14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:14:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And that, oh, infamous is the name of the biopic.

• 1:14:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:14:20Karen Kilgariff?

  From 2006. But then there's also the, the, the Philip Seymour Hoffman one, which is, give it a look see.

• 1:14:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's good. I liked it.

• 1:14:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I just love that story that, you know, somebody like Truman Capote was just such a insane one of a kind beyond belief. That was a sidebar to beat all sidebars. Cause basically he's in cold blood. He comes back and that, that kind of brings his relevance back. And then he gets the lead on the cop show Beretta.

• 1:14:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you remember that show?

• 1:14:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I was too young.

• 1:14:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You were definitely too young because I was like, it was just in my consciousness. That was like such a mid 70s show.

• 1:15:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But Beretta was the cop that had the parrot. And so if you remember, he was, he was like the Italian looking cop with a white parrot on his shoulder. And, and he kind of had that Columbo-y thing where he was like, yeah, man, you know?

• 1:15:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And every man, I guess is what that impression just was.

• 1:15:21Karen Kilgariff?

  But if you, but you can look up old episodes of Beretta and if only for the opening theme song.

• 1:15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  How's it go?

• 1:15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It was, uh, the, the full version is recorded and, uh, by Sammy Davis Jr.

• 1:15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:15:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's called Keep Your Eye on the Sparrow. And it's like, keep your eye on the sparrow. You have to, you have to look it up.

• 1:15:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It's happening.

• 1:15:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so like, it's so like disco 70s.

• 1:15:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at the like hardcore fucking.

• 1:15:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Like weird solo bongos at the beginning. They're like, here we go, the streets.

• 1:15:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Keep your, uh.

• 1:15:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, you have it.

• 1:15:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. Maybe I do know it.

• 1:16:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It had, this show had everything. And he ended up winning an Emmy for that, for that role. I think that show went on for four years, whatever. So he basically then becomes a hit and he, he does, he invests his money wisely and he builds his wealth. And he also became a fixture on the Tonight Show. And so once Beretta was over, he was still like a big presence in Hollywood. And, um, the, in the winter of two, the year 2000, uh, he, he goes to a jazz club one night and he meets a woman named Bonny Lee Bakely. And they hit it off immediately. So they, and she didn't know he was a celebrity.

• 1:16:44Karen Kilgariff?

  She actually had to call her sister and say, have you ever heard of this name? Cause he's saying he's famous. But that was in acquitted, Rich and Acquitted. But they really did hit it off. Then at the end of the night, no judgment, they go out to his van and do it.

• 1:16:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the alley behind the jazz club.

• 1:17:02Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:17:03Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the first night they met is, is they did that. So then they're.

• 1:17:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:17:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That is where their fate is sealed. That's where.

• 1:17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  In the alley.

• 1:17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  In the alley behind a jazz club. In the picture that they showed on Rich and Acquitted, it was this purple van on these big old like jacked up wheels.

• 1:17:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 1:17:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It, it looks, it's like half Scooby Doo, half like monster truck rally. You're like, where did you get this fucking car?

• 1:17:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 1:17:32Karen Kilgariff?

  If you invested your money so goddamn wisely. All right.

• 1:17:35Georgia Hardstark?

  In 2000 too. This car is from 2000, not from the fucking.

• 1:17:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Good point.

• 1:17:40Georgia Hardstark?

  This is not the 70s we're talking about.

• 1:17:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not Beretta anymore.

• 1:17:43Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:17:44Karen Kilgariff?

  But he was truly keeping his eye on the sparrow.

• 1:17:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And keeping it real.

• 1:17:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Keeping it real in the alley.

• 1:17:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:17:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So now let's switch over to this woman, this romance that he's having with Bonnie Lee Bakely. So she was born, uh, 1956 in Moorestown, New Jersey. She was also poor growing up.

• 1:18:03Georgia Hardstark?

  They're both from New Jersey.

• 1:18:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Both from New Jersey. About 20 years apart or so. This is, she has a fascinating history and this woman, if you want to talk about somebody that got fucking maligned after her own death, Bonny Lee Bakely, we all heard every single thing this woman ever did. Well, she was not there to defend herself or even, even just be a presence. Now she did a bunch of fucked up shit. And that ended up getting proven in court before she met Robert Blake. But as the cops said in Rich and Acquitted, doesn't mean she deserved to get murdered.

• 1:18:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:18:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And it doesn't mean, you know, it doesn't mean she's any less of a victim.

• 1:18:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:18:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I just remember when this case started, how often they talked like on the radio and you know, like Howard Stern style, talk shit on this woman.

• 1:19:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And apparently it was the lawyer's plan from the beginning.

• 1:19:05Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:19:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, they were ready. Once the like indictment came or we, you know, the charges were filed, the lawyer had it all ready of like, well, here's the victim.

• 1:19:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:19:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And here's her past. It's pretty intense. So now going back to where she came from, she was, uh, married for the first time and divorced when she was 15.

• 1:19:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh honey.

• 1:19:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Then she dropped out of high school. After she had a marriage and a divorce.

• 1:19:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Sweetie.

• 1:19:34Karen Kilgariff?

  What, what I estimate to be sophomore year.

• 1:19:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Then she was like, you know what? I'm past high school now.

• 1:19:41Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like, when am I gonna go back to high school?

• 1:19:43Karen Kilgariff?

  When am I gonna go to the spring formal? I don't think so.

• 1:19:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm a divorcee.

• 1:19:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm above you all.

• 1:19:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 1:19:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So she moves to New York City. She wants to be a model. She's really beautiful. She has great features. She's kind of a like bottle blonde, but in that, you know, she's like got this big open face. She wants to be a model. She wants to be an actress and she goes right for those nudes. She is like, she just, she's like, I'm ready to do it. I want to do it. And let's do this thing. She, nothing pans out, uh, which sometimes happens when you take nads. People are just like, yep, put him in the pile with the other nads.

• 1:20:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:20:24Karen Kilgariff?

  She ends up marrying, her second husband was her first cousin.

• 1:20:28Georgia Hardstark?

  No, don't do that.

• 1:20:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she did it and she had three kids with him.

• 1:20:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No, don't do that either.

• 1:20:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 1:20:34Karen Kilgariff?

  They did that.

• 1:20:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Like what, around year is this?

• 1:20:36Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the, sorry.

• 1:20:38Georgia Hardstark?

  70s-ish?

• 1:20:39Karen Kilgariff?

  This is like the early 70s.

• 1:20:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, and they're having cousin kids?

• 1:20:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Cousin kids and kind of like a, I want to be famous, but not, but maybe I'll just do this instead.

• 1:20:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's all fine, but don't marry your cousin.

• 1:20:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:20:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Do whatever the fuck you want. Don't marry your cousin.

• 1:20:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, here's what's kind of cool. So she has all these pictures that she took trying to get, break into show business essentially. She's a visionary. She starts a mail order nude photo mailing like service.

• 1:21:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:21:10Karen Kilgariff?

  She puts personal ads in the back of like smut magazines. That's like, hey, here's me. Do you want me to send you my nude photos? Write to me here and send me this amount of money.

• 1:21:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So smart.

• 1:21:20Karen Kilgariff?

  She starts fucking making bank on this business. Yes.

• 1:21:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for her.

• 1:21:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're like, I love nudes. I was just reading this whole magazine of nudes. I'd love more nudes from your home.

• 1:21:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:21:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And she's like, I've got this. So she eventually makes so much money off of this business. She can buy several homes in the Memphis area.

• 1:21:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 1:21:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So she's, she's, she's supporting that family. She's like getting it done.

• 1:21:47Georgia Hardstark?

  We're in the wrong business.

• 1:21:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, you have to be willing to, and some of the pictures, cause there's.

• 1:21:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Exercise?

• 1:21:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Pass.

• 1:21:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Get on all fours with a cowboy hat on and nothing else.

• 1:21:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I don't want to do that.

• 1:22:01Karen Kilgariff?

  There was a lot of that kind of stuff.

• 1:22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, like campy shit.

• 1:22:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It seemed very, it was like seven, seventies porn had an innocence about it. Where it's kind of like, look at me with no shirt on. That's how that a lot of those pictures felt.

• 1:22:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I've seen Debbie Does Dallas.

• 1:22:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you?

• 1:22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it good?

• 1:22:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's fun.

• 1:22:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Good storyline though?

• 1:22:20Georgia Hardstark?

  The best.

• 1:22:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Powerful, I think.

• 1:22:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Spoiler alert, Debbie Does Dallas.

• 1:22:24Karen Kilgariff?

  No, what? The whole nighttime soap opera? Okay, so now this is fascinating and it kind of shows you the mindset. But also like, you know, she's from Tennessee, she's living in Tennessee at this point, right? In the Memphis area, Memphis, Tennessee, just double checking with myself. And she's trying, she still has that thing of like celebrity. She's always been obsessed with celebrity ever since she was a little kid. She wanted it, she wanted to be around it, she wanted to be near it. So she gets this idea in her head, I'm going to hook up with Jerry Lee Lewis.

• 1:23:00Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:23:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:23:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Cousins, he loves cousins, she loves cousins.

• 1:23:04Karen Kilgariff?

  In 1989, so she's 33 years old, she's been married four times.

• 1:23:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:23:10Karen Kilgariff?

  She's been arrested for drugs.

• 1:23:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:23:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Which it's the seventies, it's gonna happen, or well now it's the late eighties.

• 1:23:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:23:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But the seventies have existed, so I'm giving her a pass, I guess.

• 1:23:20Georgia Hardstark?

  The eighties were even worse, man.

• 1:23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  The eighties were a bit nuts, but so it's 1989 is when she gets this Jerry Lee Lewis plan.

• 1:23:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:23:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And she actually ends up hanging out and like sidling up and she's a gorgeous woman. So like she eventually meets him, she gets to hang out with him a little bit. I guess she ends up hooking up with him, she gets pregnant and tells him it's her baby.

• 1:23:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's his baby.

• 1:23:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's his baby. She's like, look, this is my baby.

• 1:23:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's her baby.

• 1:23:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's no way you can prove me wrong. And Jerry Lewis is like, sounds great.

• 1:23:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I keep hitting the mic.

• 1:23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that's okay. So basically Jerry Lewis is like, why don't you go ahead and take a paternity test for that baby?

• 1:24:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Do they have those in 89?

• 1:24:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they were very popular back then. And of course, he was not the father.

• 1:24:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man.

• 1:24:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So that, she basically takes her fourth husband, it is like, we're moving to California. Like she just gets out. And I should actually have you look this up, because this is the best. Bonny Lee Bakely, she takes all that money from her home nudes business and buys herself a billboard on Sunset, Sunset Strip.

• 1:24:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Like Angeline style?

• 1:24:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Angeline style, except where it's just on the right side, it's her headshot, her eighties headshot. Where she's just like, eh, and then it just says, Lee Bonnie, that was her stage name. Lee Bonnie with a phone number underneath it.

• 1:24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I see this? I need to see this immediately.

• 1:24:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so eighties to me, it's just very like, look, here's an actress on a billboard. It's so Angeline, if you're not from LA.

• 1:24:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But you've seen her, like if they're, if they're gonna do the beginning of a Hollywood movie, they will cut to an Angeline billboard and that's that lady with the insane breast implants.

• 1:25:04Georgia Hardstark?

  She's got the eighties, she looks like the rocker chick who would hang out at like the whiskey.

• 1:25:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:25:11Georgia Hardstark?

  In the eighties, who would like hook up with metal dudes.

• 1:25:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Metal dudes, she's, she's got a big kind of baby face, tons of blonde hair.

• 1:25:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I, that was a staple of my childhood when we come to LA, to my grandma's house. Angeline had a billboard there and I was just like, I want to be like her when I grow up.

• 1:25:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:25:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And I am.

• 1:25:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, look at you, look at you, and you saw yourself in that British tabloid. You've made it. Well, also she was being bankrolled by some businessman. So it was just kind of like, do you like this person? Put them in your movie or TV show. And that's kind of the way some people were trying to get famous. Cause nobody, because they hadn't figured out they can do standup comedy yet. Uh, I'm gonna see if I can find this for you. There it is, that was on Sunset.

• 1:26:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow, yeah, it looks, it looks like a, um, a real estate photo.

• 1:26:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very reasonable.

• 1:26:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and she is very, very beautiful.

• 1:26:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, right? And it's just kind of, she's just basically like, if you drive by this and you want to put me in your thing, totally feel free.

• 1:26:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:26:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Plus I have home nudes.

• 1:26:22Georgia Hardstark?

  She phones for days.

• 1:26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  She, you know, she looks like somewhere between Meryl Streep and Bonnie Raitt. She has that look.

• 1:26:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So like severe angles, but pretty.

• 1:26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And a nice tall forehead.

• 1:26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe a little Sigourney Weaver going on?

• 1:26:39Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a little Weaver in there. She starts writing, so this was around the time where Christian Brando ended up going to jail for involuntary manslaughter.

• 1:26:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, Marlo, Marlon Brando's son.

• 1:26:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 1:26:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:54Georgia Hardstark?

  He's going off the fucking rails.

• 1:26:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. That's a whole other, I didn't even want to get into it, because I'm like, ooh, we should save that one for, because that's a whole insane story. These Hollywood murders, but, um, so he's in jail, so she's one of those people. She starts writing him letters in jail, sending him home, homespun nudes.

• 1:27:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 1:27:16Karen Kilgariff?

  He's like, this is great, thank you so much. And when he gets out of jail, they start having a relationship.

• 1:27:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:27:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So that's basically kind of this, this on and off thing. They, a lot of people in this special say like, they're seeing each other or whatever, like, uh huh, we get it.

• 1:27:33Georgia Hardstark?

  We know what that means.

• 1:27:34Karen Kilgariff?

  In a van, in the alley behind the jazz club. But then when she's seeing Christian Brando in real life, that's when she meets Robert Blake. That's where that story overlaps. So Bonnie kept flying back to Arkansas to pick up her mail. Because apparently when she lived in, uh, she was, she ended up getting arrested there because she had so many fake IDs and so many fake social security cards for all the different people that she pretended to be when she had that home nudes business. She never gave anybody her real name. So she's, she had a ton of fake ID, like fraudulent ID, basically.

• 1:28:18Karen Kilgariff?

  She had gone home to pick up her mail, um, because she was, uh, had been arrested. Basically, she got pulled over, a cop said, let me see your ID. She pulls out one, 15 other ones fall out. The cop's like, what the fuck? She gets arrested for fraud or whatever. So now she's on probation in Arkansas.

• 1:28:37Georgia Hardstark?

  So she has to have an address there.

• 1:28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so she keeps, she like stays in LA for a little while, goes, checks her billboard to see if there's any takers, and then she goes back, she has to go back to Arkansas. She's, she's been doing that on and off. But once she hooks up with Robert Blake, so it's April of 1989 now, she finds out she's pregnant. Yeah, so she tells both Christian Brando and Robert Blake that they're the father. And, uh, she's kind of doing this thing of like, I'm not sure which one I want to marry and I'm still trying to pick because Robert Blake had a ton of money and he was really stable and he was actually interested in her and like into her. Christian Brando was young and good looking and, you know, kind of like the, you know,

• 1:29:22Karen Kilgariff?

  she was just trying to decide like who she was gonna start a life with. So she picks Robert Blake, but then when she tells him, so I'm pregnant and blah blah, he's just like, you lied to me, and he, he turns on her.

• 1:29:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Robert Blake does?

• 1:29:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he's super mean, they have, so it also turns out, um, later on, when this, when this trial starts, she recorded almost every single phone call she ever had.

• 1:29:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 1:29:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So they, like when, when this case started.

• 1:29:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I vaguely remember this.

• 1:29:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they had, they have phone calls of theirs, they have phone calls of other people she had, like she just recorded all phone calls.

• 1:30:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Weird.

• 1:30:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So they could go through all of them. And that's when they start to find out her very checkered past.

• 1:30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:30:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the actual proof of it. But basically she, she thinks she's gonna do this kind of like, well, I'm pregnant and so let's hook up. I finally made my decision of my two boyfriends in my Hollywood life. And Robert Blake is like, no fucking way. And is so mean and like demanding she get an abortion, telling her he's going to make her get an abortion, like all this stuff, that she actually ends up writing a letter to her lawyer saying, if anything happens to me, Robert Blake is responsible for my death.

• 1:30:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:30:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So she ends up going back to Arkansas or Memphis, I think it was Memphis, and she has the baby. It's this beautiful little girl, I mean, we've all seen, when the case came up, you saw a million pictures of her. Her name's Rose and she is so cute, she looks like she's wearing like a little black hat of hair and she's got like bright red lips. And the second that Robert Blake saw the picture of her, he called Bonnie Blake Bakely and said, get a paternity test, because that's my baby. And they did, and it proved that it was his baby.

• 1:31:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So he knew?

• 1:31:17Karen Kilgariff?

  He knew, it looks exactly like him. And especially when you see those like our gang clips or whatever, it's, she's, looks just like him and she's really cute. So he's basically says to Bonnie, move back to LA, make a life with me. Like I want to, like I love that baby, that's my baby, let's make this work. And so she gets on a plane, even though she knows she's breaking her parole or violating her parole, uh, she gets back on a plane, uh, to LA to, to make this happen. Once she's in LA, Robert Blake is like, give the baby to the nanny for the day, let's go out to lunch. And when they're out to lunch, two cops walk up and go, you're in violation of your parole in Arkansas, you're under arrest.

• 1:32:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop it.

• 1:32:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And take her away. Robert Blake's like, don't worry about it, I'll take care of the baby, we've got it covered. Those two cops bring her, they don't arrest her, they bring her to the airport and put her on a plane.

• 1:32:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:32:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Back to Arkansas.

• 1:32:14Georgia Hardstark?

  They tricked her?

• 1:32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they tricked her. So it turned out those two guys weren't cops.

• 1:32:18Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:32:19Karen Kilgariff?

  They were two friends of Robert Blake's. And they base, and this, the entire time it was his plan to get custody of that little girl.

• 1:32:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:32:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So basically he's got the baby. His grown daughter is like keeping the baby at her house. And he just basically sent her back and was like.

• 1:32:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:32:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Trying to get rid of her. So she, uh, realizes the whole thing was a scam, she's furious. She threatens to file kidnapping charges against him. So they start to work on a deal, because she's like, I will, I will like throw the book at you.

• 1:32:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And the deal is, she agrees to drop the charges if he'll marry her.

• 1:33:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 1:33:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh, so they.

• 1:33:04Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the most romantic thing I've ever heard in my life.

• 1:33:06Karen Kilgariff?

  This is, remember the story you told about the guy writing the girl's name on the thing?

• 1:33:11Georgia Hardstark?

  This is better.

• 1:33:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Sending it to a planet. Can you imagine if a man?

• 1:33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So how'd you guys meet? What if you're like, so how'd you convince me? Well.

• 1:33:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I tricked him.

• 1:33:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I threatened him with kidnapping charges.

• 1:33:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He retaliated, of course, and then, and then I made him sign a piece of paper that said-

• 1:33:28Georgia Hardstark?

  But in the end, you were meant to be.

• 1:33:31Karen Kilgariff?

  He didn't love me.

• 1:33:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm never alone with him because I'm scared of him.

• 1:33:35Karen Kilgariff?

  What the fuck? So crazy. So in this prenup, there basically, it was like, she was allowed to see the baby once a month and to see Robert Blake once a month. That's the agreement. It was the exchange. He will marry you if you sign this prenup.

• 1:33:49Georgia Hardstark?

  But what does she get out of it then? If she doesn't even get to be with her ba- she doesn't even care about her baby?

• 1:33:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, she does, but she, there's nothing she can do because she was in violation of parole.

• 1:33:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:33:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And they've already kind of got that. So it's the kind of the only, only way she can see the baby, still be in a life and still get the thing she ultimately has always wanted, which is to be married to a celebrity.

• 1:34:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man, that feels, I'm gonna move out of LA right now.

• 1:34:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, this town is bad feelings wall to wall.

• 1:34:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Galore.

• 1:34:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Good night.

• 1:34:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, anyone who comes here has bad intentions.

• 1:34:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Or is going to have a bad time.

• 1:34:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or better get bad intentions or you're gonna get screwed.

• 1:34:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Screw before you get screwed, that's for sure.

• 1:34:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, just real good feeling place. It's, it's the reason that people come here, try to do something and then they're like, oh no, you know what? I'm now an evangelical Christian.

• 1:34:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I've, I've-

• 1:34:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Or a Scientologist.

• 1:34:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Or a Scientologist, or I'm going to be so vegan that I try to kill you. Like, it's, people just have to, they have to reassess their entire life.

• 1:34:53Georgia Hardstark?

  They like, need a thing to focus on, otherwise they'll focus on the horrible.

• 1:34:58Karen Kilgariff?

  How they're nothing, or they'll buy themselves a billboard. Like, it's this kind of town where you feel like you're so nothing for so long that you're like, I'm just gonna buy a billboard. It's the only way I can break through. It's just, it's a nightmare. So anyway.

• 1:35:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I like it here, though.

• 1:35:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, no, I love it.

• 1:35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm pretty happy. Okay.

• 1:35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really gorgeous. We're having a great time. And guys, we get to do a show at the Orpheum in two days.

• 1:35:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, that's amazing.

• 1:35:21Karen Kilgariff?

  She signs this prenup that basically gives her almost nothing.

• 1:35:28Karen Kilgariff?

  They marry in November of 2000.

• 1:35:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I wish I could have been at that fucking ceremony.

• 1:35:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I bet there was rose petals and love galore.

• 1:35:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Everywhere. It's just like scattered love.

• 1:35:41Karen Kilgariff?

  You just used the word galore and I think I might never stop using the word galore. It's so fun to say.

• 1:35:47Georgia Hardstark?

  It's of that time. It feels of this era.

• 1:35:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:35:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And I mean, like, you know, it's 2000, but like, this fucking thing.

• 1:35:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Six months later, when her probation ends in Arkansas, she officially moves to LA. She moves into the guest house on his property. Not into his house, her husband's house. She moves into the guest house and they never share the same house. They only ever set it up like that. So it's not a real-

• 1:36:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I don't get it.

• 1:36:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very strange. So then this all leads up, now we are up to May 4th of 2001. When Robert Blake asks Bonnie if she would like to go out to dinner.

• 1:36:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Do they ever go like on dates or anything like that? Do we know?

• 1:36:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't sound like it.

• 1:36:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, no.

• 1:36:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds like a real bummer, man.

• 1:36:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It sounds like the most toxic relationship and the most codependent, bad intentions from every direction. Also, it's that thing of like, if you are, if you get together with a guy and then the only way you can see staying in his life is tricking him into thinking he's fathered your child. I'd go back to square one, go back to that jazz bar and pick somebody else.

• 1:36:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Or start, you know, go back even further. Start at, go to therapy.

• 1:37:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Start there.

• 1:37:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Ask some questions.

• 1:37:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So then when you get to the jazz bar, you pick a, you know, a good, kind person?

• 1:37:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you, maybe drop some of that, whatever happened to you in junior high.

• 1:37:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Drop, drop some of that, my first marriage was when I was 15. See, see if you can start anew.

• 1:37:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  None of this is going, is helping anybody.

• 1:37:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Or constructive in any way. So they go to dinner. He says, I want to take you to Vitello's. She's like, hell, yes.

• 1:37:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I love fucking dusty grape, fake grapes.

• 1:37:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I love red sauce. I love melted mozzarella on, on, you know, pottery.

• 1:37:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Box Chianti, favorite.

• 1:37:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Or what's that wine, the one that's so funny? Chablis?

• 1:37:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Vin Rosé. That's what my grandma used to order.

• 1:37:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:37:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll have a Vin Rosé.

• 1:37:57Karen Kilgariff?

  She had a weird New York accent because she was from San Francisco.

• 1:38:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so they go to dinner. Um, I just had a recur- a, a recovered memory. There used to be a stand-up show at Vitello's upstairs. Yeah, this was like late 90s. Those are the kind of things I would be like, sure, I'll do that show. And I would show up and I'd be like, I'm not doing this.

• 1:38:18Georgia Hardstark?

  This is humiliating.

• 1:38:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm not going, I'm gonna drink in the corner.

• 1:38:22Karen Kilgariff?

  You can have the opera guy take my sip.

• 1:38:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so Robert Blake tells Bonnie that he's brought his nine millimeter pistol with him to dinner because of all the unscrupulous business that she's involved in and for her safety. Um, and she, she's like, sounds great. I'll have the breadsticks and, um-

• 1:38:43Georgia Hardstark?

  She ordered the breadsticks.

• 1:38:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Just breadsticks.

• 1:38:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds fucking great.

• 1:38:47Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, when you're trying to be ladylike on a date?

• 1:38:49Georgia Hardstark?

  You're on a diet.

• 1:38:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll just get seven breadsticks.

• 1:38:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I just have the breadsticks?

• 1:38:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And a pitcher of iced tea.

• 1:38:58Karen Kilgariff?

  God, I love Vitello's. So they leave the restaurant at 9:24. And between 9:24 and 9:40, Bonny Lee Bakely is shot in, um, Robert Blake's car in the parking lot of Vitello's. He, she is, he, so he, they get into the car and then he goes, sorry, I left my gun in the restaurant. I'll be right back. And goes back into the restaurant.

• 1:39:29Karen Kilgariff?

  To get his gun that he says he left in the booth.

• 1:39:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 1:39:32Karen Kilgariff?

  There are no witnesses from the restaurant that say he went back into the restaurant. No one saw him go in and get his gun. But while he, he claims and his alibi is that when he, while she was getting shot outside, he was inside getting his gun.

• 1:39:45Georgia Hardstark?

  But nobody saw him.

• 1:39:46Karen Kilgariff?

  No one saw him. But it's the perfect alibi because it's like, well, I was inside with my gun.

• 1:39:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Just say you went inside to pee. Like, why did he have to introduce the gun part?

• 1:39:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I guess to cover the fact that that's where his gun was, like, make it real clear that-

• 1:40:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, he didn't even have his gun on him.

• 1:40:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, the gun wasn't anywhere but in the restaurant.

• 1:40:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Then why didn't he actually do that and, and wave at everyone with the gun? Hi, guys. So they all said they saw him waving with the gun. You know what I mean?

• 1:40:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:40:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, I'm a master fucking criminal, criminal.

• 1:40:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, would that have helped? Be like, hey, guys, you know, thanks again.

• 1:40:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Bye. Oh shit, my wife just got shot.

• 1:40:22Karen Kilgariff?

  This one's for the opera singer, chewing to the ceiling.

• 1:40:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry, I'm making light of this.

• 1:40:27Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no. I mean, what we're making light of is the plan.

• 1:40:30Georgia Hardstark?

  The whole, what we're making light of is life and how fucking stupid it is.

• 1:40:35Karen Kilgariff?

  And also how Hollywood makes you think you can do things you shouldn't and can't do.

• 1:40:40Georgia Hardstark?

  But if fucking money and acquittal, the TV show-

• 1:40:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Rich and acquitted.

• 1:40:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Has shown us anything. It's true.

• 1:40:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It is true. It's true. It's why people want it so badly is because it gets you to a place, I was right, Rich and acquitted. It gets you to a place where you are untouchable and that's what everybody wants. That's real power. So.

• 1:41:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to be touchable.

• 1:41:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, do you?

• 1:41:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want to be untouchable.

• 1:41:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I think you're silky soft and totally touchable.

• 1:41:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Baby soft.

• 1:41:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. So at 9:40.

• 1:41:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:41:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Robert Blake rings the doorbell of a neighbor of Vitello's.

• 1:41:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Why?

• 1:41:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he went there to call 911, to the neighbors. Screaming, going fucking berserk.

• 1:41:25Georgia Hardstark?

  God.

• 1:41:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And the neighbor is, it's a guy named Sean Stanek. It's his house. He goes there to his house to call 911. When he leaves and the cops go to, like, go to the crime scene, he, he call, he waits a little while, then he calls police again and he asks them to come and, and look through his house because he, he thinks Robert Blake might have hid something there while he was there. He says his behavior was so strange and over the top and bizarre and he was screaming and being super crazy about my wife, my wife, whatever, that he was like, I don't, I just want you guys to come and look. I feel like he did something and I didn't catch it, which I think is amazing and such a cool move where it's like, could I just invite you guys back real quick?

• 1:42:10Georgia Hardstark?

  He didn't even try to look for it himself. He was just like, something's fucking off and I am not putting my fingerprints on it.

• 1:42:16Karen Kilgariff?

  No, get the authorities in here.

• 1:42:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 1:42:18Karen Kilgariff?

  ASAP. Well done, Sean Stanek. So, uh, and other neighbors in the neighborhood were like, yeah, he was just running around screaming and like, and like, just so clearly presenting like, I am freaking out. But a little vaudevillian and over the top.

• 1:42:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. Play it to the back, what do you guys think?

• 1:42:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. Play to the back row. So, uh- So, police are like, well, this is strange because, again, no witnesses actually saw him go into Vitello's the second time. And he also, Bonnie, had a cellphone and was always on her cellphone. She was like, as we know, for her recorded messages obsession. She was a big phone person, always had her phone on her. He could have taken her phone and called 911, right there at the car, and he didn't do it.

• 1:43:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:43:08Karen Kilgariff?

  He also, he was taken in for questioning after, like, they all left the scene. So Bonnie was shot twice.

• 1:43:16Georgia Hardstark?

  In the car, she was in the car.

• 1:43:17Karen Kilgariff?

  She was sitting in the car, in the passenger seat, shot through the window, blood all in the car. She was taken, the ambulance came and she was taken to the hospital, but she died at the hospital. Robert Blake was taken in for questioning by the detectives, never asked how she was.

• 1:43:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. So, they were like, yeah, the couple, these things aren't adding up in a big way. They do the gun residue on his hands test, inconclusive. They end up, which is a super brilliant idea, and like, you know, for 2000, it's pretty advanced. There's a dumpster that the car is parked right next to, and instead of going through the dumpster there, they just take the entire dumpster back to like, the forensics lab or whatever, and go through every piece of garbage, piece by piece.

• 1:44:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So smart.

• 1:44:07Karen Kilgariff?

  To find, yeah, to find anything. And they end up finding this, it's a nine millimeter, it's a very rare WWII German officer's gun, that's a P-38, nine-millimeter pistol.

• 1:44:22Georgia Hardstark?

  No idea.

• 1:44:23Karen Kilgariff?

  But when they find it, it's covered in motor oil, so they can't get any fingerprints off of it, or even, or do any ballistics on it. It's just completely ruined. They think intentionally.

• 1:44:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I wonder if that was a fucking plot line in an episode of Beretta. They should have fucking looked that up, man.

• 1:44:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a fucking genius idea.

• 1:44:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Can, is Double Deopardy still a thing?

• 1:44:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 1:44:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Bring him back.

• 1:44:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Bring him on back. That is such a good idea. I wonder if anybody looked up all the episodes of Beretta, and just been like, this person did this, this person, this was the plan.

• 1:44:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:44:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. The next day, he lawyers up immediately, of course, and the next day is when the lawyer starts releasing the phone call tapes of Bonnie, starts talking, trashing her. Like, he had a whole, basically, kind of like, a media thing ready.

• 1:45:16Georgia Hardstark?

  But it has nothing to do with it.

• 1:45:18Karen Kilgariff?

  To, well, it's, it's, what it is, is like, they were trying to build the case that, that she had enemies all across the nation, that she had, she had conned men all over the place, and there were lots of people that, that were her enemy, not just Robert Blake. So, as bad and contentious and horrible and loveless and nightmarish as this marriage was, that she had just entered into, she's still, he wasn't, perhaps, wasn't the only suspect that should have been looked at.

• 1:45:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right, right, okay.

• 1:45:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, she, and they find out, that they start, like, when they start listening to these phone calls, they start finding these old men all around the country, that they, they thought she was his, that they thought she was their wife.

• 1:46:03Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:46:04Karen Kilgariff?

  They, um, they thought they were married, they, she was married to lots of people.

• 1:46:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 1:46:10Karen Kilgariff?

  She got married a lot, and she would take out life insurance policies on them, and she also had them change their will to include her in.

• 1:46:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop it.

• 1:46:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that happened, that was a couple of them. Now, this also, this was in Rich and Acquitted, but, uh, this also was all the information that the lawyer's just like, anybody that'll listen to it, they'll tell that story. Um, one person theorized that she had been married over 25 times.

• 1:46:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:46:36Karen Kilgariff?

  But the provable amount, she was married nine times, for sure.

• 1:46:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:46:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Um, okay. So, uh, so at some point, like, in the, in this process, Robert Blake fires that initial lawyer, and he hires Thomas Mezaro. You've seen him on tons of true crime things. He has strange, like, uh, little Dutch boy hair, uh, but gray.

• 1:47:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:47:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It makes very little sense. And he's the guy that defended Mike Tyson and Michael Jackson. So, you've seen him on the news.

• 1:47:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, sure, sure, yeah.

• 1:47:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Um, and, and so, he hires that guy, then he hires media consultants, um, to start the story spin, and they get him on Barbara Walters. So, from jail, in his orange jumpsuit, with his hair now turned white, he isn't dying his hair black anymore, like he had up until that time. That, that was like, a big thing, and they say he did it for sympathy or whatever, but from jail, she's like, "Did you kill your wife?" And he's like, "No, of course I didn't." He's like, as if he's irritated with Barbara Walters.

• 1:47:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Overdoing it a little.

• 1:47:44Karen Kilgariff?

  For even, there's a, yeah, he's, there's a touch of lily gilding, but we can't tell if that's just how he is.

• 1:47:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he's a child actor, he's never had a normal life.

• 1:47:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, you just, you just don't know. Um, he ends up, eventually, he ends up going free on a million dollars bail.

• 1:48:02Georgia Hardstark?

  A million dollars?

• 1:48:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Rich, rich, acquitted, rich, and bailed. So...

• 1:48:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that their theme song?

• 1:48:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Rich, rich, rich, and acquitted. Okay. So, then the trial starts on December 20th, 2004, at good old fucking Ventura courthouse.

• 1:48:23Georgia Hardstark?

  At our spot, Van Nuys?

• 1:48:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Van Nuys courthouse.

• 1:48:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, yeah.

• 1:48:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how it all ties back in.

• 1:48:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:48:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, now, now that I'm thinking, I know the pre-trial was at the Van Nuys courthouse, I don't know if the actual trial...

• 1:48:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Who cares? Let's go with it.

• 1:48:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So, there's two different stuntmen who come testify that Robert Blake solicited them to kill his wife months before the actual murder. One of them, they can prove, he talked to on the phone the morning of the murder.

• 1:48:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Robert.

• 1:48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  But in cross-examination, he gets this, Mezaro ends up, um, uh, resigning from the case, or whatever that's called, leaving it.

• 1:49:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Quitting.

• 1:49:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Quitting, I guess. Quitting's the word I was looking for.

• 1:49:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You're welcome.

• 1:49:11Karen Kilgariff?

  He leaves, he gets a, Blake gets a third lawyer, and...

• 1:49:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Always a bad sign when you have to keep fucking getting, look at Ted Bundy, for example.

• 1:49:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not good.

• 1:49:21Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:49:21Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not an agreeable individual.

• 1:49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  They hate you.

• 1:49:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they hate your guts.

• 1:49:24Georgia Hardstark?

  They can't even, like, they're lawyers, and they can't even fucking deal with you.

• 1:49:27Karen Kilgariff?

  They can't deal. They don't have to be around you that much, and they're just like, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"

• 1:49:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, just do what I tell you, and everything will be fine.

• 1:49:33Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no, no, I'm a rock and roll actor.

• 1:49:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm smart, yeah.

• 1:49:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, okay, so, the new, uh, lawyer is basically just like, whoa, I'm just gonna eviscerate any of these witnesses who even, because there's so little evidence that they have to, like, so the two stuntmen that come and say, "Oh, yeah, he asked us to kill his wife," one of them, they pull up a report that he had recently been hospitalized for cocaine psychosis.

• 1:50:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no. What's that?

• 1:50:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just like, you do so much cocaine, you fucking lose your mind.

• 1:50:06Georgia Hardstark?

  How much cocaine?

• 1:50:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'd say a night's worth. Maybe two nights' worth.

• 1:50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, interesting.

• 1:50:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, you just, you start it and you don't stop.

• 1:50:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:50:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And then you just fucking go berserk.

• 1:50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Lose your mind, okay.

• 1:50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So, that comes out on one guy. So, then he just, like, his, all of his credibility is done, and they basically do the same thing to the second guy. They're just like, "Oh, you're both, you're both these drug addicts, you're both these, you know, whoever, you'd say anything for money, you'd say anything."

• 1:50:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:50:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so, basically, once they get rid of those two people, there's no real evidence that they, that's, that's usable in court. So, the jury deliberates for 12 days on March 16th.

• 1:50:44Georgia Hardstark?

  12 days?

• 1:50:45Karen Kilgariff?

  2005. Uh, Robert Blake is found not guilty of murder, and not guilty of one of the two counts of solicitation of murder.

• 1:50:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Straight up not guilty, not even like, oh my...

• 1:50:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Not guilty. Yeah.

• 1:50:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, go on.

• 1:50:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Not guilty, no, that's fine. Um, the, the other count of solicitation of the, of the guy, the cocaine psychosis guy, um, that was dropped when it was revealed that the jury was deadlocked 11 to 1 in favor of acquittal. So, they were gonna go for it anyway.

• 1:51:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're just basically like, forget that one, and he's just going free.

• 1:51:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Erase that one off the whiteboard.

• 1:51:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. They're just like, "Oh, you're rich? You're acquitted." The Los Angeles, this is from Ockapedia, well, Los Angeles, Los Angeles District Attorney Stephen Cooley called Blake, quote, "A miserable human being," and the jurors are, quote, "Incredibly stupid"

• 1:51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  to fall for the defense's claims. There's one woman in this special, Rich and Acquitted, where she goes, "Of course I believed that Mr. Blake would, left his gun inside a restaurant. Haven't we all left things inside restaurants at one time or another?" And it's just like, "Lady, it's a fucking gun."

• 1:51:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:51:55Karen Kilgariff?

  "It's not your lipstick."

• 1:51:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not your fucking retainer that you put in the cloth napkin.

• 1:52:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, cost your parents $300.

• 1:52:03Georgia Hardstark?

  They were so pissed. Mimi's Cafe, in Irvine.

• 1:52:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So, basically, the, the public consensus was that he hired someone to kill his wife, and it's just unprovable.

• 1:52:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:52:15Karen Kilgariff?

  But a lot of, there were lots of character witnesses that were like, "No, he's the best, and he would never do that." Um, and of course, there was no evidence. So...

• 1:52:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, go on.

• 1:52:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, on the night of his acquittal, several fans celebrated at Vitello's.

• 1:52:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no. And Karen Kilgariff was one of them.

• 1:52:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And I was up there singing opera, just like this, on November 18th, 2005.

• 1:52:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That was not an opera.

• 1:52:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not? What? Yes, it is, that was Verdi.

• 1:52:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything straight out your nose in opera? This is the Barber of Seville.

• 1:52:54Georgia Hardstark?

  But if you're singing about opera, it's opera.

• 1:52:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't have to sing opera.

• 1:52:58Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. This is a musical about singing opera.

• 1:53:00Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no actual opera in it.

• 1:53:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm out here and I'm wearing a Viking hat.

• 1:53:06Georgia Hardstark?

  More nasal lawyer, please.

• 1:53:07Karen Kilgariff?

  A Viking hat.

• 1:53:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, on November 18th, 2005, Robert Blake was found liable in a California civil court for her wrongful death.

• 1:53:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Civil court will always fucking come at you.

• 1:53:20Karen Kilgariff?

  They'll come back and they'll be like, hey, we see things a little bit differently.

• 1:53:24Georgia Hardstark?

  We forgot to talk about the fucking OJ Simpson. No, we'll talk about it next time. Go on.

• 1:53:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:53:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So.

• 1:53:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry.

• 1:53:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Based, no, no, that's fine. So since that time, he had to file for bankruptcy. He's in $3 million in debt, unpaid legal fees, as well as state and federal taxes. He said that he might return to acting because he has such financial problems now.

• 1:53:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Acting is like, we're good, bro.

• 1:53:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we're like, we got, we got it covered, Beretta. We're gonna hire the parrot instead.

• 1:53:57Karen Kilgariff?

  In 2010, the state of California filed a tax lien against Blake for $1,000,000. $1,110,000 in unpaid back taxes.

• 1:54:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Ouch.

• 1:54:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It hurts.

• 1:54:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, this is a very famous interview. He was on, he went on July 16th, 2012. He went on Pierce Morgan and he's wearing a sleeveless cowboy shirt and a cow, black cowboy shirt, and then a cowboy hat.

• 1:54:25Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, don't do that.

• 1:54:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And he is, acts so crazy. You have to look it up on YouTube. It's inexperienced to have. And he just starts attacking Pierce Morgan for asking him any questions at all. And Pierce Morgan's like, yeah, but this is what we came here for, is like the interview. And he snaps and is super fucking crazy.

• 1:54:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I wanna watch it.

• 1:54:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to watch it. It's, it's, it's pretty legendary. He told the people that were writing his autobiography that he hoped for one last great film role. But the, but he was in Lost Highway, the David Lynch movie in 1997. And that, to date, is his last acting role.

• 1:55:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:55:10Karen Kilgariff?

  In a March 2016, this is, this is one of the saddest endings. Not saddest, but like, one of the most like, oh, endings of any of the murders that I've done. In 2016, March 2016, he told a reporter that he had a private nurse and that he was suffering, suffering from incontinence. And that, my friends, is the, is the sad ending

• 1:55:36Karen Kilgariff?

  of the murder of Bonny Lee Bakely.

• 1:55:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:55:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And the rich acquitted experience of actor Robert Blake.

• 1:55:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:55:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Now he's 85. He's still alive.

• 1:55:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:55:49Karen Kilgariff?

  He's still alive. I think he remarried for a third time.

• 1:55:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone married him again?

• 1:55:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course. It's the fucking, this is a town full of people who want their own billboard.

• 1:56:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, how come he gets to be 85? But fucking, Stephen Hawking is what, was he like 73?

• 1:56:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Look.

• 1:56:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Such bullshit?

• 1:56:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I wish I could explain God's work.

• 1:56:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I wish I could too.

• 1:56:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a mystery.

• 1:56:16Karen Kilgariff?

  This is just how he does it.

• 1:56:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Next time, we have to talk about the OJ If I Did It, that they finally, oh, thank you. That was amazing. That was.

• 1:56:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no. You're welcome.

• 1:56:26Georgia Hardstark?

  That was so, I don't wanna call it fun, but it was a wild ride. You know who he's always reminded me of is the dude, the dad from fucking The Staircase?

• 1:56:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, just creepy in that way.

• 1:56:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:56:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Whatever.

• 1:56:41Karen Kilgariff?

  There's definitely an energy about him that you're, but, but you can't tell. Actors are so creepy.

• 1:56:46Georgia Hardstark?

  They're so creepy.

• 1:56:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That it's like, it's the, yeah.

• 1:56:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, who, is this the real you or is there another real you? Are you acting? Or do you ever know how to not be acting?

• 1:56:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And you just think feelings are weird masks to put on so you can manipulate people.

• 1:57:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:57:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, instead of actually having a real time experience.

• 1:57:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, here's how feelings look like and sound like.

• 1:57:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Italy. I love this place. My gun. Abu Danza, everybody. Pizza for one. Type of shit.

• 1:57:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Nick got a ringtone immediately. Stephen, turn that into a fucking ringtone.

• 1:57:25Karen Kilgariff?

  But you're talking about, so there was the OJ Simpson, like, an If I Did It special?

• 1:57:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It got, it got filmed in like 2006 and there was like a fucking public outcry. And everyone was like, don't put it out. But, so they finally did. You'll have to watch it and we'll talk about it next week.

• 1:57:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great.

• 1:57:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucked up.

• 1:57:43Karen Kilgariff?

  He did it.

• 1:57:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and he admits to it in this fucking show.

• 1:57:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 1:57:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucked up. Okay. So, two women who were one of us, they were murderinos. They were lovely women and they were murdered this week.

• 1:58:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, this is one of the most awful things. We, we've been contacted and had a bunch of people tell us about this. But Stephen, just so you guys know, and I think sometimes people aren't aware of this, like, Stephen is so good about, he's on those message boards with you guys and he knows what everyone's doing. He reads all those emails. So like, he lets us know, especially when something this horrible happens. And so we found out that, it was on Tuesday?

• 1:58:31Georgia Hardstark?

  One was Monday, one was Tuesday. We found out this morning.

• 1:58:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that, that two different murderinos in Seattle were murdered.

• 1:58:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Separately from, it's, so, so Lita Burns and Samantha Field were both murdered. If you go to the My Favorite Murder Facebook page, there's more information. We actually don't know a lot of information ourselves, but we just wanted to acknowledge them. And we're so heartbroken over it. And not just because, you know, they're, listen to the podcast, obviously, but because it's just really heartbreaking and we, we feel like they're friends of ours. And it just feels really, it feels like we're this club and we've lost two members and it feels horrible.

• 1:59:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And in such a, and such a terrible way, like, just, we're thinking about you guys because they were your friends. And, you know, this is, this is your guys' community that you're building and so you're all connected. And the idea that something like that would happen to you and your community is just heartbreaking. So, we're thinking about you and, and we're so sorry and we're so sorry to the families. And, you know, hopefully they'll be quick, like, for the, for the one that, that is right now, they're, they don't know as much information. Hopefully that, that case will be solved quickly. And the other one is just an incredible tragedy.

• 1:59:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, they both are, but yeah, there's just so much loss and we're so sorry.

• 1:59:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back here. And any updates?

• 2:00:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a couple. Of course, Quentin Tarantino's novelization of the film Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. That movie was dedicated to Robert Blake.

• 2:00:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Huh.

• 2:00:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And in the movie, Brad Pitt's character is accused of murdering his wife. Which is kind of interesting.

• 2:00:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Robert Blake did die of heart disease on March 9th, 2023. He was 89 years old. And Rose Lenora Blake is in her late twenties and lives a quiet life now.

• 2:00:28Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, let's head back in for Good Things of the Week.

• 2:00:37Speaker 00

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder wantons.

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:00:48Speaker 02

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 2:00:49Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:00:53Speaker 03

  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues for the Bible.

• 2:00:58Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:01:07Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today. To help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you wanna be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star

• 2:01:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Our trust pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:02:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so my positive thing this week, I just want to give this shout out to this, this movie that I can put on in the background and Vince and I put it on at night when we get home from going out and we just want to watch something and it's just, you can start it at any point and it just makes me so happy. It's called Los Angeles Plays Itself.

• 2:02:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 2:02:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you seen it?

• 2:02:24Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 2:02:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good. It's a documentary about Los Angeles in the movies.

• 2:02:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 2:02:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And it shows all the old school movies and all the places and things in Los Angeles in the background, like Rebel Without a Cause, all these places. And it's just this really lovely, lovely thing to put on as a nice distraction and you can just watch it and enjoy yourself.

• 2:02:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I would love to see that.

• 2:02:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good.

• 2:02:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really funny. After all the shit we've been saying, that's like the perfect thing to say. Cause like, no one, but it actually is really pretty.

• 2:02:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Los Angeles Playing Itself, yeah, I thought Berettas on there.

• 2:03:00Karen Kilgariff?

  There, I mean, there's, I think he was in New York.

• 2:03:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, never mind. Well, that's, they show that too. It's like, they say this is New York, but here's Los Angeles downtown. I think the orpheum's in there as well.

• 2:03:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's right.

• 2:03:11Georgia Hardstark?

  They show downtown LA and what it's pretending to be, or when they're, you know, to live and die in LA and what parts of LA it is. And it's narrated by this guy who's got like the most soothing, lovely monotone voice.

• 2:03:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 2:03:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such a good fucking, it's such a good, it's just like a good living creature that I really like.

• 2:03:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing.

• 2:03:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it. I love, To Live and Die in LA is a good movie.

• 2:03:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, mine's also kind of on the same, it was making me laugh. There were people that were giving us suggestions for what this segment should be called.

• 2:03:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 2:03:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was making, people had some hilarious suggestions, but we should think of an actual name for it.

• 2:03:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, cause people are trying to do puns, of course, which God, God, people love puns. But I don't think we have it yet. Unless you can think of one while I say this one.

• 2:03:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 2:03:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I just, last night I watched my, we all got to write two episodes on Baskets this season and my second one was on last night.

• 2:04:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 2:04:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And it made me laugh. Now, look, I mean, it, part of the reason it makes me laugh is because Zach and Martha and Louis, they riff so much.

• 2:04:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So we get credit for stuff that we did not write and it's awesome. I mean, like watching Zach riff and knowing that the things, like he just, he just writes the best jokes. So I remember one, I can't remember what the actual joke is supposed to be, but Christine Baskets says to Chip, she's like, Chip, it's not a competition. And he goes, yes, it is, mother, everything is. And it made me laugh so hard and that was totally Zach's joke. But the, there were things in it that were so fun to make up. And I remember when I was making them up, thinking, I think this is gonna work. Like having that feeling and it, but it's so hard to believe in that when you're just

• 2:05:02Karen Kilgariff?

  making something up and writing it on a page. And, you know, of course I always talk about how much I love Jonathan Kryzel, who's my boss on that show and the director and the visionary of that show and the one that makes it work, it's his doing. But he was like, no, no, no, this is exactly how it should be. And this ending scene where they're all in this Halloween store, having a fight as a family is just like, I was laughing at my own writing, which usually anything I watch of my own gives me great pain.

• 2:05:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It gives me lots of like retroactive shame and regret, and I should have done this better and I should have done this. And I just purely enjoyed myself.

• 2:05:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that.

• 2:05:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It was really fun. And I don't know, those guys are just, we get, it's just the coolest thing to be a part of. So that was exciting.

• 2:05:47Georgia Hardstark?

  That's awesome.

• 2:05:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that.

• 2:05:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, I know what we'll call it, bragging corner. How's that?

• 2:05:53Georgia Hardstark?

  How about the, the positive place? Positive, positive vibes.

• 2:06:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Positive vibes.

• 2:06:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Vibes, something about party vibes.

• 2:06:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Party vibes. Yep.

• 2:06:06Georgia Hardstark?

  My favorite party vibes.

• 2:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Hashtag.

• 2:06:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I think party vibes. What do you think?

• 2:06:12Karen Kilgariff?

  This gives me party vibes?

• 2:06:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm going to be sarcastic every time I say it, if it's party vibes.

• 2:06:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, cause it's stupid.

• 2:06:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 2:06:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like I mean it as a joke.

• 2:06:22Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, I know.

• 2:06:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Vibes, no.

• 2:06:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I like party vibes.

• 2:06:26Georgia Hardstark?

  No, we'll keep, let's keep workshopping that. You know what? Let's put a pin in it and let's fucking workshop it.

• 2:06:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do, Party Vibes is best of right now. There's all these people that are like, I tweeted something better on Twitter.

• 2:06:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you did, you're right.

• 2:06:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You're, no, you're absolutely right about your own ideas.

• 2:06:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't ever listen to anybody else's outside influence.

• 2:06:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't bother.

• 2:06:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Party Vibes is what it is until we think of the better idea.

• 2:06:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, and we'll get there.

• 2:06:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the one to beat.

• 2:06:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. So this episode was originally entitled.

• 2:07:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 2:07:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Galore, galore. What I love is that it's such a weird word and I used it twice. And then you're just like, why are you using galore all the time?

• 2:07:11Georgia Hardstark?

  But I like that it's the word galore, galore. Like it's galore, galore.

• 2:07:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good.

• 2:07:16Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so bad. But if we were naming it today, or maybe naming it something else, maybe we would call it the furthest darkest space, of course.

• 2:07:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's good. Don't embarrass me.

• 2:07:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, the altar of doubt. I mean, I still think about that all the time.

• 2:07:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Altar of doubt, that's right. Also the British Toby, because Toby Jones is always relevant on this show and in our lives.

• 2:07:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And then of course, hire the parrot instead.

• 2:07:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Just wisdom from this show.

• 2:07:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 2:07:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, the benefit of us just talking without thinking is that, you know, that's how a lot of good podcasting is made and.

• 2:07:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. You don't realize the shit you say until you get the titles read back to you at the end of the episode and you're like, I said that, what?

• 2:08:02Karen Kilgariff?

  How are we doing this for this long? It makes no sense. But it's very fun.

• 2:08:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And in the meantime, let's go back to 2018 to say goodbye from there.

• 2:08:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Gosh, thanks for listening. We, we love this community and we love being part of it and we're so fucking grateful.

• 2:08:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we really are.

• 2:08:27Georgia Hardstark?

  For you guys listening and for what's happened to our lives. We don't talk about it because like we said, we're fucking terrified that it's gonna all fall apart the minute we acknowledge it. And we say it at live shows, we don't really say it on recorded episodes.

• 2:08:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's true.

• 2:08:42Georgia Hardstark?

  How insanely incredible, I, I don't, I want to say, my life has become because of this podcast.

• 2:08:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's true.

• 2:08:49Georgia Hardstark?

  In a way that I think I fell in through a wormhole when I was a kid and ended up here because there's just no way that this is real.

• 2:08:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so true. It's so funny to say that because I was, today was my therapy today. Therapy day. So where, which is when I get especially like raw and kind of like, what am I saying?

• 2:09:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:09Karen Kilgariff?

  But I did have a moment where I told my therapist, it really does feel like everything has come together. It's like, it's that feeling like at the end of A Prayer for Owen Meany, where all of a sudden he understands why he was doing that trick shot with his friend the whole time, cause then they're in the war together or whatever. It had that feeling of like, the stuff that you and I have been doing lately, where I'm like, oh, I got it, I've been trained for this.

• 2:09:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I kind of know what I'm doing here and it finally makes sense. Like, I don't know. It's thank, what we're saying is thank you. Thank you guys for listening. Thanks for being a part of it. It's, we're having the best time. We're glad you guys are having the best time. Fucking, hooray.

• 2:09:48Georgia Hardstark?

  We're so grateful and.

• 2:09:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And stay sexy.

• 2:09:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 2:09:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Bye.

• 2:09:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Bye. Elvis, you want a cookie?

• 2:09:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:09:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You want, you want a cookie? Good boy, you want a cookie?

• 2:10:03Karen Kilgariff?

  He got, you got it. I know, but there's more, there's a better one. I'm sorry. Just keep saying it. I'm such a stage mom.

• 2:10:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives. Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027 for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 2:10:24Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack for live recordings, behind the scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 2:10:40Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 2:10:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 2:10:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

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• 2:11:33Speaker 00

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