Who Would You Be With Nothing to Prove?

For more than a decade, Lewis Howes has interviewed some of the world’s most successful people on The School of Greatness, his podcast with more than a billion downloads. When Emma was a guest, they talked about something they recognized in each other: how much of their drive had come from anger. On Aspire, Emma turns the questions on Lewis. After more than 2,000 episodes exploring what drives high achievers, what has he noticed about the ones who are genuinely at peace with what they’ve accomplished? In this episode, Lewis shares his own story of healing and how it changed what he wanted from success. You’ll learn: How to tell whether you want the goal itself or what achieving it would proveWays for recognizing your own triggers and understand what’s underneath your reactionHow to find more fulfillment in your work by asking who it serves and what you feel called to doHow to spot the beliefs about money that still shape your decisions, even after you earn moreWhat pursuing his Olympic dream has taught Lewis about going all in on a goal without making the outcome a measure of his worth

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Emma Grede?

  How do you know whether you're chasing a dream or running from something? Today, I'm sitting down with Lewis Howes, the entrepreneur, bestselling author and host of The School of Greatness. His podcast has passed a billion downloads and he's spent more than a decade talking to some of the world's most successful people about how they got there and what they've learned. When I went on his show earlier this year, we ended up talking about our own anger and how much it had driven us. I wanted to continue that conversation here because I know what it feels like to use anger to get ahead and to wonder whether letting it go will cost you your edge. Lewis talks about what he needed success to give him and the moment he realised that even as his business was growing, his relationships were breaking down. We get into the need to prove yourself, how that shows up around money and what it takes to change something

• 0:54Emma Grede?

  that's driven you for so long. Let's get into my conversation with Lewis Howes.

• 1:03Speaker 01

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• 2:37Emma Grede?

  Lewis Howes, welcome to Aspire.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, Emma.

• 2:39Emma Grede?

  I'm really happy to have you. I can't tell you now, since you interviewed me for my book launch early this year, and thank you very much for that. That was good. Great episode, great clips. The clips keep giving. It was a really, really great conversation that we had. And I have to tell you, like, we talked a lot about how anger can actually fuel success. And it was really interesting because as you think about it and as we spoke about it, we both kind of identified in each other that it doesn't necessarily make you feel good when you get there. So I really wanted to have a conversation with you today because I think that we so much in the culture celebrate people that turn their pain into achievement, but we rarely ask the question

• 3:20Emma Grede?

  about what it actually costs. And in learning more about you, I know that you have quite a lot to say on the subject. And so I think for people listening right now, who know that a lot of their drive comes from something painful, but they're almost afraid to let go of it because they believe that that's part of what makes them successful, that's part of what gives them their edge. What do you actually, from your experience, want them to understand?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Well, I think we both talked about how anger fuelled us to proving ourselves and to accomplishing a lot of things. And like you said, anger can fuel success, but it cannot give you peace. And so you have to ask yourself what you want. Do I want to be the most powerful person in my sphere of influence? Do I want to be successful at all costs? Or do I also want peace, fulfilment, joy and love? And I think it's hard to be fuelled by anger to accomplish success and have a peaceful state about yourself. There's always going to be this chip on your shoulder or inside of you that's driving you to prove others wrong or prove that you're capable or worthy, whatever it might

• 4:25Speaker 01

  be. And I think we talked about this on our show where it was like, for years, I was driven to prove people wrong. I was driven to show people that they were wrong about me, what they said, what they thought or whatever. And in some ways, I was really afraid of people really seeing who I was, accepting the real me, the insecure little boy, the scared little boy, you know, the kid that just didn't believe in himself. I was afraid of them actually seeing the parts of me that I was scared of. And so I used anger as a mask to act like everything was fine, like I knew more than I actually did, like I was more competent than I actually was. And it got me incredible external results. I succeeded. When I wrote down my goals, I would accomplish almost all of them. But I didn't

• 5:10Speaker 01

  have any peace. I didn't have any love and I was constantly in a state of scarcity internally.

• 5:17Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  And so if you want to have success fuelled by anger, you'll probably always live a scarce life.

• 5:23Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I think that you couldn't say it more beautifully, actually. I think the difficult thing is for people to identify that. So how do you even know? And this is what I want our conversation to be about, because I think it's so hard for people to understand. And we're going to circle back around to this throughout our conversation. But for anybody listening, how do you even tell when what it is that you're chasing, the dream that you're chasing is actually more about you running from something?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  When you're triggered by something. You know, I had Edith Egger on, who recently passed away. She's a Holocaust survivor. She was in Auschwitz. And as I was talking to her about, you know, my desire to prove people wrong, she said, and this is a former prisoner, she said, if you continue trying to prove, you're still a prisoner. And the fact that we have this trigger in life, it's causing a lot of pain externally as well. And so that's how we start to know. When something triggers me, it usually means there's something off inside of me that I don't accept, that I'm not happy with, that I don't feel good about. And it doesn't mean if we, if we see an injustice in the world, we can be triggered by that and want to change it. But if it's constantly about

• 6:31Speaker 01

  us and our insecurities and our lack of worth, that means that there's something that's missing, that we haven't found a way to create that acceptance and that healing journey that we really need. And I think that's the difference.

• 6:43Emma Grede?

  So talk me through that. When you identify that something is triggering you, like, what's the conversation that you're having with yourself? How do you even know that that's happening?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  For me, it's a feeling. It's like, is my chest tight? Is my throat feel clenched? Do I feel like I want to say something, but I can't say it? Am I ruminating in the middle of the night, all night? You know, there was months, years ago, where I would just ruminate, thinking about someone that did something I didn't like. And I would just hold on to this. It would be very triggering. And that was revealing to me. I think the more triggered I was, the more I thought about something, it revealed where I wasn't free. It wasn't free in my way of being and my way of thinking. And so when I think about something that frustrates me over and over again, a person that said something, a person that did something or didn't do something, whatever it might be, when I think about it and ruminate on it, it's triggering me. It's making me feel something

• 7:35Speaker 01

  emotionally. Those thoughts and those emotions lead into behaviours and actions that typically don't serve me, that don't serve the people around me, that don't serve my sleep, my eating habits, my workout habits. They don't serve me to being the better version of me. When I'm thinking and feeling of a trigger, it's holding me back. Until I learn to process it. This is why for me, when I started doing therapy about 13 years ago, 14 years ago, it allowed me to release the triggers. It allowed me to communicate the things that I was angry about. I don't know when you started kind of expressing your anger and starting healing that, but it allowed me to move through it faster rather than holding on to it. And I would find myself getting sick by holding on to

• 8:18Speaker 01

  anger, by being triggered. And everything around me would get sick as well. My relationships would get sick, my money would get sick, you know, my environment would get sloppy. Everything would get sick because of the way I would think, because the way I'd think interprets the way I feel and my feelings created my behaviours, my actions. And I don't know about you, but it's hard for me to keep my mouth shut when something upsets me.

• 8:43Emma Grede?

  I'm not like that at all.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  When something bothers me or upsets me, like, I don't say the right things. I speak up. I'm like, I kind of call people out. I'm like, why are you being this way? You know, but I'm doing it in a not so healthy way. And that's, that's where I realise I'm not free still, because I'm allowing my triggers to control me instead of processing them in a healthy way. And it doesn't mean I'm always going to live in peace and I'm never going to have anger and never to be triggered. But it's the fact that I hold on to it too long sometimes. In the middle of the night, that's when everything else gets sick.

• 9:14Emma Grede?

  I can totally, totally feel the same kind of like when, when a problem repeats on me, like when I am literally thinking about something every day. And it's interesting for me because, you know, I make no secret of the fact that I've had major anger problems and took myself off to anger management when I was.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  But you're always smiling though.

• 9:34Emma Grede?

  I know. It's so funny because when I say it to people, they're like, but you look so happy with it because I dealt with it. But also because I understand it's still there and it's something that I work on continuously because it is when I'm stressed, when I'm tired, when I'm overworked, it's like the default for me. It's the thing that I can access the easiest.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  The anger is the default.

• 9:52Emma Grede?

  It's there. It's like, it's always there.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And what does it feel like for you?

• 9:55Emma Grede?

  It feels like something, it's almost like, like a trap, like it's the easiest, the easiest thing for me to access. And so I really have to constantly remind myself, like, to me, it's a daily practice. That's why I meditate. Because to me, the only way that I can remind myself not to go back there so easily is to have a consistent practice.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  And on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most angry, where is your anger scale on a daily basis?

• 10:23Emma Grede?

  Super low. Still a, still a good two. No, no, not that high. And you know, I will tell you, the interesting thing is how seldomly I'll get to a 10. I feel like 10s used to visit me monthly and then it would happen once a year. I haven't been at a 10 angry in many, many years.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  So you're like a two or three?

• 10:42Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And I don't know what it would take to actually get me there, but I just feel like it's always accessible. And it's interesting to me because I think I needed to be successful in such a way to my core. And I knew that that anger was never going to, like, it was, the two things couldn't exist together. When you look back, because obviously you've been very successful and you've been successful in different times in your life, what did you actually need success to give you?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  I think the feeling was probably a few things. Love, acceptance, and a sense of belonging. These are the things I didn't feel most of my childhood. Now, when I go back and I rewrite the story, I can create that for myself. I can hold on to the moments where I did feel loved, accepted, and like I belonged. But I ran away at thirteen. I begged my parents to send me away to a private boarding school. I don't know any child that is sent away on their own will.

• 11:46Emma Grede?

  It's usually the other way around. The parents are off to boarding school.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  It's the other way around.

• 11:49Emma Grede?

  Why do you need that so badly?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Because I was just doing so many things that I didn't feel good about myself. And I was like, I know I'm going down a bad path. How old's your oldest?

• 12:00Emma Grede?

  He's twelve, about to turn thirteen. But that's a lot of self-awareness for somebody, a boy at that age.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  When I was ten and a half till about twelve, I almost stole something every day. I was like, what is that, a kleptomaniac or something? It's like if you're a stealer, it's like, now, these were small things, right? It's not like I'm diminishing this, but it was like, I was always in a store and it was a game. Can I steal a candy bar? Can I steal a pack of cigarettes? Even though I didn't smoke, it was just the thrill of trying to steal. And it never felt good, but I was living in anger. And I felt like I just needed to get back at someone. I didn't know who. I didn't feel like I belonged, that I was accepted. And I grew up in a small town in Ohio. One of my first memories was being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. It was the babysitter's son, probably sixteen or seventeen. This is one of my first memories.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  And this movie played in my mind almost every single day until I was about thirty years old.

• 12:55Emma Grede?

  And you never told anyone?

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Never told anyone until I was thirty. So for twenty-five years of my life, I lived with a movie in my mind that was extremely vivid of being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. Growing up in Ohio in the eighties and nineties, I wanted to be liked, like most of us. We want friends and we want to be liked by the people we're surrounded by every single day in a classroom, right? And I was a very affectionate young boy. I was like, I would put my arm around my friends, or I tried to. But a lot of times, these guys didn't want that. They didn't want me to, they didn't want to high five, they don't want to arm around it. It's kind of like, you know, don't be a girl, don't be this, don't be that, whatever it is, right?

• 13:38Speaker 01

  It's name-calling when you try to show any type of connection, any type of affection, or any type of brotherly love, right? And so I was like, oh, if I can't put my arm around a buddy of mine without them calling me a name, then what can I do? I can't be affectionate, I don't have any connection. I can't show my authentic self, which is a caring, loving human being. It's how I felt as a kid, but very insecure. And if every day, all I'm thinking about is this movie of being sexually abused and vivid experience, the whole setting, I can go back to my mind in a moment, that moment. And if I can't put my arm around a buddy of mine, what are they going to think about me if they know when I was sexually abused? What if they really knew who I was? Would they like me? Would they accept me?

• 14:23Speaker 01

  And again, so I didn't feel like I could belong unless I put on a mask and played the game of society. And so I learned a strategy to survive, just like all of us learn strategies to survive in childhood and adulthood, things like that. But those strategies didn't serve me in my adulthood. They hurt me. And they caused me to be extremely successful, but feeling very empty and very lonely inside because I was never fully authentically myself around anyone. I was wearing a mask all the time. And so at five, one of my first memories is being sexually abused. At eight, my brother goes to prison for selling drugs to an undercover cop.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  So almost every weekend from eight to twelve and a half, me and my family are visiting him in a visiting room in a prison.

• 15:10Emma Grede?

  That's a lot for a kid at that age. I had a lot of family members and close friends that went to jail as a kid. And that experience of visiting somebody that you care about in those circumstances. I mean, it's unfathomable if you haven't gone through it, but for it to have been your brother is something else.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  He was my hero. You know, he's eleven years older than me. I was the youngest of four, he's the oldest of four.

• 15:31Emma Grede?

  And what happened with, like, how did your parents cope with that? What was the, what was life like at home?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  They didn't cope. I mean, it's like, you know, they probably should have been divorced before I was born, but I'm glad, I'm glad I'm here. But I just grew up in an environment that was not a flourishing environment of harmony. Let's say that. A lot of screaming, a lot of, you know, just abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, these different types of abuses. And it what felt like to me like it was neglect. Now, it doesn't mean there wasn't loving moments and beautiful times, but it just felt like a continual feeling of uneasiness, uncertainty, and a lack of what I felt like I needed. And that was my experience, my interpretation. So at five, sexually abused. At eight, my brother goes to prison.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I'm in special needs classes all through school, Emma. I was always in recess in a little group with two or three other kids trying to learn how to read and write. So in eighth grade, when I went to boarding school, I was tested with a second grade reading level. So most of my childhood, I'm just, all I'm thinking is, I'm not smart enough. I'm in the bottom of my class, I'm in special needs classes, something's wrong with me. I'm sexually abused by a man that I don't know, something's wrong with me. My parents can't figure out life, and it's unsettling, almost every day, something is wrong with me. So my young brain developed the belief that something is wrong with me. And that left me very angry. I'm like, why am I here? What's the purpose of this life?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Why am I even alive if something is wrong with me? And it doesn't mean it's true, but it's what I learned how to believe. And that belief, I created survival mechanisms to try to fit in and belong. Some of those things worked, and some of those things hurt me and hurt other people, those strategies to succeed. And once I finally became old enough and I realized, huh, all this success and all the money that I'm making and all the followers and all these accomplishments that I'm developing isn't giving me the feelings I want. I thought it would make me think that I'm smart enough and I can belong. I thought it would give me the right relationships. It doesn't. I thought I'd feel more at peace with money in the bank.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  It doesn't give me those feelings. So what is wrong with me? Now I've done everything I think I'm supposed to do, and I still feel wrong. And it wasn't until thirteen, fourteen years ago, when I finally went on a healing journey, that everything changed.

• 18:01Emma Grede?

  I'm so grateful that you would share that with this audience because this, I mean, that's a lot. I mean, that's a lot for anyone to go through. But I feel like for so many successful people, they become very, very good explaining how they are and why they are how they are.

• 18:24Emma Grede?

  The thing that slows people down during the day is not always the work itself, it's the constant stopping and starting. You're in an email, and then you need context from a doc. You're reading a long thread, then you have to remember what was decided in a meeting. You're about to send something, and suddenly you're checking whether the number, the name, or the claim is actually right. That is why Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly feels different from other AI tools. It works where you already work, so you don't have to open another tab, paste in context, or explain what you're looking at. It's right there when you need it, on the side of your browser, already up to speed. If you're reading a dense document or a long email thread, you can ask Go to pull out the key points without losing your place.

• 19:07Emma Grede?

  If you're getting ready for a meeting, it can help you make sense of what matters. And before you send something important, it can help catch details that just don't add up. The promise is that it does not make your day more complicated. It is your AI assistant, always on, working inside the tools and the sites that you already use. Try Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  Do you ever wish you could ask nosey questions about people's money?

• 19:35Speaker 04

  I have seven hundred and twenty-nine dollars and seventy-one cents in my bank account.

• 19:39Speaker 05

  We bought, you know, a one-point-three-million-dollar house on a three-hundred-and-fifty-thousand-dollar income.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  On the podcast What We Spend, we ask those questions. It's a show about money and all the feelings that come with spending it.

• 19:50Speaker 06

  I want to be the kind of person who can just take care of the people in my life.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Listen to What We Spend, an Odyssey original, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 20:05Emma Grede?

  How do you know when you've actually processed something as opposed to just learn to speak about it? Because it's very clear to me, given all of the success and knowing a lot about your journey, that you've actually done an enormous amount of work to process what's happened to you.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  I think when you can speak about it, it not make you sick to your stomach and feel like me saying this is still gonna hurt me, or me saying this, someone is gonna judge me and I'm not gonna be able to live with myself if they don't accept me. So before, for 25 years, when I had this shame inside of me and these secrets that I didn't want anyone to know about me, I realized that, oh, if I say this thing, that means I'm not gonna be okay. I remember the moment I started talking about being sexually abused, I thought my life was over.

• 20:54Emma Grede?

  You did.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Because I was like, no one's gonna talk to me anymore. My business is done, my family's not gonna talk to me, my friends aren't gonna talk to me, I'm gonna be alone and I'm gonna die. Because you have to remember, 13, 14 years ago, you weren't in America yet, right?

• 21:07Emma Grede?

  No, but it also, you just didn't speak about it.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  No, like, did you see anyone on TV or publicly talk about like, I was sexually abused?

• 21:15Emma Grede?

  So seldomly. So what actually made you want to start talking about it? Was it a necessity for you to heal?

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Everything in my life was breaking down, everything. I was in a relationship that wasn't working, an intimate relationship. I was in a business partnership that was in constant conflict and we weren't seeing eye to eye. And I didn't know how to communicate, how to create alignment. So it was just constant problems. I was dealing with friendship issues, like every problem that I was facing in my life had me at the center of it. Like, I couldn't keep pointing the finger and blaming everyone else. It was like, something is wrong with everyone else originally, for most of my life. I was blaming everyone. And then I realized there's something going on with me that I get to learn about myself and realign with myself. Because anytime we feel frustrated, it's usually something

• 22:04Speaker 01

  is out of alignment. And there was a dis-ease inside of me because I'd been living a life that was a lie. I'd been living a life that wasn't authentic to myself. And I was keeping secrets from others about me because I was so afraid if they knew this about me, no one would love me, no one would like me, no one would talk to me.

• 22:20Emma Grede?

  The story just continued.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I would be broken, I would have no money, I'd live in a hole, I don't know, in the desert or something. And so I was kind of like sick and tired of just being sick and tired for most of my life. And it's exhausting trying to wear a mask that doesn't fit you, that doesn't belong to you, and act like it is you. So after 25 years, and all these relationships kind of breaking down, I got actually into a fight on a basketball court here, I don't know, a few miles away, just a friendly pickup basketball game that I used to play in all the time.

• 22:52Emma Grede?

  But this was a serious fight, right?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  It was a serious fight. And to the point where I was like trembling after the fight, when I went back into my place and I looked myself in the mirror, I just didn't recognize myself. So I got in this very physical fight. Thankfully, the guy is okay. And my friend, my best friend, who still works with me today, he was like, I don't wanna hang out with you anymore. Because you're reacting so much in situations that don't cause for reaction. This is a friendly pickup game. And you're taking it all the way to the extremes of like life or death.

• 23:21Emma Grede?

  Did you know when your friend said that to you, you were like, yeah, I've crossed the line, something's gotta change?

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did.

• 23:26Emma Grede?

  Because I feel like we all had those moments. I wrote about it in my book, where, you know, I had an outburst on somebody in public. And I knew in that second, with the trembling, with the kind of self hatred and the disgust that washed over me, I was like, that's it. Like this, that it was just a very clear line for me. I was like, I never ever want to see myself behaving like that ever again. Something has to change.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  And I think it was like, all these relationships were breaking down, and that happened.

• 23:56Emma Grede?

  And you know it's you.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, yeah, this is, this is all me. And I couldn't blame anyone else anymore. I was like, I get to take full responsibility for all my actions. Stop blaming everyone else. Even if bad things happen to me, it doesn't mean I can allow them to continue to run my life. And these bad things that I interpreted as bad things and held on to were causing me to react and respond in ways that my highest self, my greater self, my future self, did not desire. And so I had to learn how to let go of the little wounded boy who was living in my adult body. This boy that was screaming for me to do something about it. And my adult self was not protecting him, was not healing him,

• 24:40Speaker 01

  was not realigning with him. And that's one of the biggest wake up calls. So when I hit 30, I went full immersion, full, let me open myself up, full exposure to any types of healing therapies that I could take on.

• 24:56Emma Grede?

  I wanna understand more about that, like in terms of what you actually did, because it looks so different for everybody. But what do you believe that actually was required from healing that actually you could never have ever got from the achievements?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  The thing that was required was unlimited courage. It was like, I had to step into a level of courage that I'd never done with any business launch or, you know, starting any relationship or anything. It was, I had to fully look myself in the mirror spiritually and forgive myself for everything. One of the hardest things that I think that anyone can do is forgive themselves for the things they're most ashamed of. And I was living with incredible shame. I wasn't willing to say it, but I was living with it. And I was so afraid that if people knew how much shame that I was living with, that again,

• 25:52Speaker 01

  they would not like me, they would not love me, and I would die alone. So I had to learn how to, how to actually be courageous. And to say that you're sexually abused by a man, for me, as a jock, growing up in America, I'd just never seen it. I'd never seen anyone speak about it on TV. I'd never seen an athlete talk about these things. And in fact, if anyone said anything close to that, it was just like, don't be a little wussy, don't be a little girl, don't be a little whatever. So I was like, hell, I could, this has to bury inside of me until I'm dead. Like, no one can ever know these things. And I was not free. So I had to have ultimate courage to start speaking about these things. And I didn't know how to do it. So for me, what that looked like is, I just asked people

• 26:37Speaker 01

  for support. Hey, what can you, if you're going through a hard time, what should you do? I tried therapy, I tried emotional intelligence workshops, week long intensive programs where I was just doing different exercises and revisiting these things. That's what allowed me to get the process started. But I like to tell people, healing's a journey. It's not like I'm healed and everything's perfect. We're going to have moments of triggers. You're gonna go from a zero anger to a three or four every now and then. And it's the tools that we learn that bring us back to a place of peace and stability.

• 27:11Emma Grede?

  Does it still visit you? Do you still?

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:15Emma Grede?

  Yes, straight away.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Yes. And sometimes it grabs a hold of me so strong that I'll ruminate for a few days or maybe a week on something, or a couple of weeks, on something where I felt like, oh, the little boy inside of me was taken advantage of again. The little boy was picked on, the little boy was abused, the little boy was made fun of. And I get to constantly remind myself that the adult in me, and the higher version of me, and my future self, doesn't want me to live in this pain.

• 27:45Emma Grede?

  No, it doesn't want you to be in pain. It's a constant conversation that I have with myself, in the sense of, because I feel like so much of the way I was raised and the anger that I had was a part of me being successful, that if pain builds you, then what are you without it? Do you ever have that question and that conversation with yourself?

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I did. You know, so you said if pain builds you, what do you have without it? I'll tell you what.

• 28:11Emma Grede?

  And who are you without it?

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Peace is a beautiful feeling, though. Like, when I'm living in a peaceful state of being, I am so creative, I'm so loving, I'm so generous, I have zero jealousy, I'm all collaboration, I'm all win-win, I'm all elevating others, I'm all courage. And for me, I think that's what my future self is going to hope that I step into as frequently as possible.

• 28:40Emma Grede?

  I'm fascinated by you, Lewis, because you spend your life talking to some of the most successful people on the planet. And it's a pretty amazing, I mean, we were just talking about you're coming up to your like 2000th episode.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  2000 episodes.

• 28:52Emma Grede?

  I mean, that's so, it's so insane. So it's like over a decade of speaking to all of these incredible people. But you've seen what achievement changes, you've seen what it leaves untouched, you've seen the good and the bad sides of it. When you think about the, the common traits of successful people, when you think about actually what success doesn't fix in people, what most comes to mind?

• 29:21Speaker 01

  For me, it might be different than other people. But the things that I think are success is having a lot of gratitude for your life. Because I believe that gratitude is the gateway to abundance. So that those who live in gratitude are always gonna be bigger givers, and they're going to receive more because of that state of gratitude. The second thing for me is, is health. You know, I don't think people are successful unless they also are healthy. And I think you get to, I think health is a choice most of the time, unless you have an accident or something like that. But you can choose to learn how to have a healthier mindset.

• 29:54Emma Grede?

  You mean like a, like a responsibility?

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a choice, a lot of the times that you can, it doesn't mean it's easy. You know, it's hard for people to stay healthy, but I think it's a daily choice to shift the way you think to being a healthier way of thinking, to shifting the way you move your body and having a healthy way of living, and shifting the way you are spiritually. I think it's a choice to be able to constantly be in a prayerful state of being and shifting back to prayer.

• 30:22Emma Grede?

  And what's a bad thing?

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Service. I just think service is the ultimate success. Service to your calling, service to your family, service to others. And really, in pursuing the thing that you're meant to do in service of other people. I think that's what it's about. Because for me, success, my whole life was about me winning, me being right, me making money, me having the accomplishments. It was very me, me, me, me, me. And I'll tell you what, every time I accomplished my goal or made more money, I didn't feel better. Like, and I was always curious, why do I not feel better? And it's because I was living a selfish life. It doesn't mean I was like a bad person. I was also trying to help people and things like that. But it was really like, how can I do this so I feel better, so I look better, so that

• 31:06Speaker 01

  I'm, have more money, that I am number one in my industry or my field, or whatever it might be. And the journey I went on at 30, I learned very, in a very intense way, that

• 31:22Speaker 01

  You cannot win unless everyone wins around you. Like, there is no winning unless there's a win-win environment.

• 31:28Emma Grede?

  Don't you think that's so hard, though, for people?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Yes, because I'm an athlete.

• 31:31Emma Grede?

  Right?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  I want to win.

• 31:33Emma Grede?

  But I also think that people, even if you're not an athlete or you're not naturally competitive, even the way people are living right now, right, people feel, you know, they're pressed, they're stretched. It's hard to think about living a life of service when you might not even be, you know, servicing yourself or serving the best of yourself.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  That's why health is the thing. That's why, like, gratitude is servicing yourself and you're energetically opening yourself. Like, when we connected early on, I was like, I'm so grateful to be here. It's so good to see you. I'm expressing gratitude in my energy. That's going to create a win-win environment just in seconds. I don't have to do some grandiose gesture to express gratitude. I can just look in the eyes and say, thank you. I can shake people's hands and say, thank you, it's good to see you. It's expressing a way of gratitude. And I think if we're not in service to lifting others up, then we're only serving ourselves. That's not success. In my mind, that's not greatness. So it shifted. My whole life was about, like, winning and succeeding for me. And I realized that wasn't joyful. It wasn't fulfilling.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  And it was only serving one person. But when I learned to do it, accomplish what I want in the service of others, it just feels a lot more rewarding.

• 32:45Emma Grede?

  How often do you meet successful people, though, that are either still trying to prove themselves or still feeling insecure with themselves? I feel like it's pretty often for me.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  I think most people are trying to prove themselves. I think most people, and this is a kind of a season of my life where, after 2,000 episodes, I think most of my childhood was trying to prove people wrong about myself, right? And I think I was living in a proving state of being. I wasn't even aware of it, but I was like, this feeling of, I need to prove my worth. And proving my worth never worked out. It didn't work. It just left me feeling frustrated and more upset and almost, it fueled the anger inside of me even more. Which is crazy, because I was like, once I prove my worth and everyone sees how worthy I am as a human being to be here and exist in this world, then I'll feel enough. It never worked for me until I stopped proving

• 33:36Speaker 01

  and started living from a more authentic state. And the moment we can stop proving again, if we continue to feel like we need to prove something, like Edith Eggers said, we are still prisoners. If we are trying to prove we are a prisoner, it's extremely hard to know we are worthy, we are loved, and we matter.

• 33:59Emma Grede?

  How often do you feel like you need to revisit that work, though? I always feel like it's, yeah, for me, it feels consistent and constant.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  I think it's like brushing my teeth, you know? It's like, how often do we need to brush our teeth and floss? Daily. Because if I don't, I'm going to rot.

• 34:12Emma Grede?

  So what's your deposit? Like, what are you doing? Because, again, there's one thing, saying it. And I feel like we're so good at this point in popular culture of, like, saying how we want to feel, but the practice is very different. So I'm interested in what the practice really looks like for you.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  For me, I like, I like a ritual where it, I just, at different times. So first thing I do when I wake up is I say, thank you. I lean over to my wife when I kiss her and I say, thank you for giving me this incredible life that we have with our kids, this, this home. And I'm thinking of appreciation and gratitude. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, God, for another day. You know, the statistic that I think about often is 150,000 people a day do not live. 150,000 people every single day in this world die. And I think about that, because I'm like, we don't know the day. And I don't know about you, but over the last few weeks, as my kids, my twin girls, you know, turned one, I think about the fear of death more now, because I'm like, I really want to be here to watch them grow up.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  I really want to be here to experience their life and make sure that I can provide a safe environment for these two beautiful girls to learn and develop in this uncertain world that we're living in. And I didn't think that way when I didn't have kids. I was like, nah, I felt more bulletproof, right? But now I'm like, I want to make sure.

• 35:34Emma Grede?

  Oh, my God.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  And I feel it differently.

• 35:36Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  And so I'm so grateful to wake up. We could, we could go to sleep and not wake up, and one day that's going to happen for both of us.

• 35:42Emma Grede?

  And you really think about that every day?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Every day. I think about it, my team, I talk about it all the time with my team. 150,000 people died today and we're not one of them. What a gift, what a gift, what a beautiful gift. We just don't know. We don't know when it's going to end. And the moment I think we take our eye off of that ball and say, oh, I'm going to live another 60 years and everything's going to be fine, is the moment we slip into bad patterns, bad habits, and things that might cause us to getting there sooner. And so it's, it's a daily gratitude practice in the morning and at night. So that's a ritual for me. Morning and night is gratitude. If I don't live in gratitude, I can quickly find something that I'm ungrateful for.

• 36:23Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I think it becomes really easy. When you meet people that are both successful and at peace, what do you, what do you think is different about them?

• 36:31Speaker 01

  They are in alignment. They are in alignment. They're not chasing something that they don't need. And for most of my life, I chased. I chased things that I didn't need.

• 36:42Emma Grede?

  I think most people do.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  And, and in some ways, I'm chasing after certain goals or dreams, but it's not from a place of needing to prove myself. It's like I'm pursuing things in a different way.

• 36:52Emma Grede?

  Because that's the thing about being successful. It's not that, it's not like the ambition goes away all of a sudden. It just comes from a different place, I think.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm pursuing my Olympic dreams. I'm moving to Spain for most of next year.

• 37:04Emma Grede?

  You have to talk about this a little bit, because it was one of the most surprising parts of our discussion.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 37:08Emma Grede?

  No, it kind of does seem crazy, but I'm going to let you talk about it because it is like an actual dream. And I think so seldomly do people actually pursue their dreams.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  I am pursuing something.

• 37:18Emma Grede?

  Your Olympic dreams.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  My Olympic dreams, and I'll be 45 when the Olympics happen. It is not coming from a place of proving people wrong, which it used to be that, growing up. It's coming from a place of, this is a dream that I've had since I was five years old, right? From as long as I can remember that I wanted to be an Olympian. And this is a real opportunity for me. I was on the USA national team for a sport called team handball for almost a decade. And I'm re-picking it back up over the last couple of years to pursue this. And it's been probably the most challenging thing I've ever done. Because age is, is challenging, you know? It's like, I'm not 23. So I get to approach things differently on a different season of life that I, that I've never done before.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  And know that the dream and the goal is not guaranteed. There's no guarantee that's going to happen. And the uncertainty of it is actually exciting to me. And who I'm becoming in the process is what I'm most excited about. Yes, I want to accomplish this goal. And if it doesn't happen, this is the thing that I never could deal with when I was younger that I've now learned. This is kind of the secret for me, that I think all high achievers and successful people who are truly successful have figured out that if my Olympic dream does not work out the way I envision it, I'm going to be okay. Whereas growing up, if I didn't accomplish my goal, it meant that I was not loved, I was not worthy, and I didn't matter.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  But if I don't accomplish my big goal and dreams now, it doesn't mean that for me anymore. So maybe I'll be a little frustrated and upset that it didn't happen, but I'm, at this season of life, I want to look at all the incredible gifts that it gave me pursuing it, not proving my worth. And there's a difference there.

• 39:05Emma Grede?

  Do you think that you could have had that understanding without going through all of these conversations, the 2,000 conversations that you've had? Like, I'm essentially trying to understand if all of that has changed your own definition of greatness. Do you understand achievement differently now?

• 39:22Speaker 01

  I think it's, it's a combination of all of it. It's, it's all the interviews I've done, but also the healing work. I mean, I was deep in the healing journey for many, many years. And it was that awareness while interviewing some of the biggest minds and achievers where I started to learn things. And it's interesting, because the first few years of my show, The School of Greatness, it was more around success and winning and accomplishment. As I started to go through my healing journey, I was like, I want to.

• 39:49Emma Grede?

  It all shifted a little bit.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Let me bring on the therapist who can teach me how to, like, deal with my wounds. Let me, let me bring on neuroscientists. Let me bring on other people who can share with me what I really should be thinking about.

• 39:59Emma Grede?

  I always see that with podcasts, like, how they start, what people go through. You can track so many people's, like, own personal journeys.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 40:06Emma Grede?

  But it's clear with yours, because there was like this discernible shift, right? As you became more open, you became more interested, you shifted a gear.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Well, life was always about me and what I was missing. And then as I started to heal and start to open up on that journey, it was more about others and who I could elevate.

• 40:21Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  And it's like, listen, when I have someone like you on, as talented, as successful, as gifted as you are, Emma, who has built a billion-dollar brand and is impacting millions of people every single day with all the gifts and talents that you have, when I bring someone like you on, I'm not thinking, how can I get something out of this? I'm thinking, how can I elevate you and your impact and your greatness even more? And before we started the interview, I said, what would make this one of the most powerful conversations we could ever have? Because my intention is to serve anyone who watches this, so that they share it far and wide. So I'm creating an intention before every guest to elevate them. And I'm not thinking about, how can I get something?

• 41:05Speaker 01

  If it naturally happens in the future, cool, because life is, in my mind, a collaborative sport. And so is business, if done the right way. It's about collaboration. So naturally, things will collaborate if it makes sense. But that's the way I think about it. And but the beginning was more about, how can I just win and be the best? But that doesn't work.

• 41:25Emma Grede?

  No, I think you're right. It really doesn't work.

• 41:32Emma Grede?

  Okay, I think I've just found the latest wellness studio everyone's gonna be talking about. It's called Studio New Zealand, and here's the twist, it's an entire country. This isn't just about adding yet another juice cleanse, a meditation app, or a grounding mat to your wellness routine. At Studio New Zealand, wellbeing happens naturally. It's influenced by Maori culture and a holistic approach that is felt through connection to nature, people, and place. The country is your all-in-one wellness studio. Think lake dips instead of cold plunges, geothermal spas, native forests, fresh local food, and birdsong for your sound bath. The best part, you don't need weeks to experience it.

• 42:13Emma Grede?

  In just one week, you can experience Studio New Zealand and come home feeling 100% restored. So I might just be ditching my morning wellness stack and giving Studio New Zealand a go. One thing I've learned building Skims is that people are incredibly particular about the clothes they wear most often. And I think that's especially true of loungewear. You might spend more time in your sweats than anything else in your wardrobe, so the fit and the fabric really matter. That's something we've been very intentional about with our cotton fleece collection. We wanted pieces that feel substantial and comfortable, but that you can also wear out of the house and feel put together in. It's the same approach we bring to our sleep and soft lounge collections. For me, great sleepwear starts with how the fabric feels against your skin.

• 42:58Emma Grede?

  I want something soft and breathable with a fit that feels good at the end of a long day. I also think these are such good gifts, especially at this time of year. A matching sleep set or a really good fleece is something people will actually use. Shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. And after you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and make sure you select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. And if you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.

• 43:35Emma Grede?

  I do wanna talk to you about money a little bit, especially as it relates to worthiness, because it's one of the subjects that you talk about a lot. And I feel like there's so much of us, like so much that I can relate to you in, like from our upbringing. I had a lot of instability coming from my family and my parents. And I feel like earning money, it doesn't automatically change everything that you learned about it, right? It's like you still have those stories, they're still gonna crop up. And you wrote an entire book about the stories that we attach to our money history, our money journeys. So what did growing up without money actually teach you about what money meant? And how have you shifted that story?

• 44:17Emma Grede?

  Because I think that for so many people, that's, that's the difficult part. Like, how do you, how do you eventually get to the point where you can put it down?

• 44:25Speaker 01

  I just didn't fully understand money growing up. And for me, it felt scarce. And since whatever I didn't understand, I didn't feel like I could get close to. Maybe that's why I struggled with women for so long, because I didn't understand them, now I just do. I didn't understand it, but I wasn't willing to also learn about it. I think it's because it's money scared me. I was like, I don't understand the language of money, and therefore I'm not going to try to learn more about it and start, because I wasn't ever getting it. I wasn't grasping the concepts growing up. And we struggled with money because my parents got together when they were 19. They had my brother, so they would just kind of figure out life and working and try to survive while they raised us kids. But my dad would always do something very specific, though. Even though we didn't have a lot of money growing up, he still was very generous.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  And he would always tip in two-dollar bills. It's one of my desk, I have a two-dollar bill as this reminder, because he lived in a state also of trying to bring joy to people, even when he didn't have a lot.

• 45:20Emma Grede?

  To his detriment or in a generous, sweet way?

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a generous, sweet way. We didn't go out to restaurants that much because we didn't have a lot of money. But whenever we would, he would tip in a two-dollar bill. And you'd always see like the waiter or the waitress just light up with joy. And it was a conversation, it was a story, it was something that we'd talk about for days. And it always happened. He would tip in twos and this joy would come about. And I was like, man. And he would just speak in this spirit of generosity. Even though he didn't have a lot to give financially, he found a creative way to give that people would remember. And I think when you're willing to do something like that, where you're creative in how you give, people will remember that. And that creates a feeling of abundance. And when you step into the feeling of abundance, I believe you get more creative and actually earning real money when you step into that feeling.

• 46:08Emma Grede?

  How so?

• 46:09Speaker 01

  If I'm living in a feeling of scarcity and my body embodies scarcity, the way I think and the way I feel, I'm probably not gonna be courageously putting myself out there to generate opportunities. I'm not gonna be thinking, oh, if I go up to this person and ask them for an opportunity, they're not, they're not gonna give it to me because I'm thinking and feeling scarce thoughts and feelings. And that was most of my upbringing was, I didn't understand it, but I also would see my dad do this in certain ways. So I was like, how can I just be a curious giver? And that's kind of how I started my business. I had no business skills, I had no talent really, except for curiosity and a giving spirit.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  And when I would enter these rooms, whether it be networking events or go to conferences, I somehow would find a way to get into the after-hours dinners, right? And I was always the youngest in my early twenties, and I'd be with the top thought leaders of the industry. Somehow find a way to get there, because I believed that if I asked curious enough questions, somehow they would let me in.

• 47:13Emma Grede?

  And it worked?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  That worked. And it's how I built my business before the podcast. And now I, my podcast is 2,000 episodes of me doing that same thing, a spirit of generosity. So I didn't need money, I didn't need talent, I didn't need to be smart. But if I brought that energy of abundance rather than scarcity, it allowed me to create those opportunities for myself.

• 47:33Emma Grede?

  What do you think actually changed when you started making money, like real money?

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Well, originally, I still didn't understand it enough. So I knew how to finally make it, but I didn't understand how to navigate.

• 47:48Emma Grede?

  Even as you say that, Lewis, I don't know how many men I hear express that they didn't understand money enough.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Really?

• 47:55Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Well, first off, I didn't know how to make it. Then once I learned how to make it, I didn't know how to invest it. And I didn't understand what to do with it. So I just hoarded it, I just stacked it, because I didn't wanna go back to being broke again. I was like, I'm never gonna go back to relying on my family or sleeping on my sister's couch or any of these things.

• 48:14Emma Grede?

  And how old, just paint the picture for me, how old are you at this time and what are you doing?

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Twenty-seven, twenty-eight, you know, so from 24 to 27, I wasn't making money.

• 48:22Emma Grede?

  But it's really before you have this big kind of like moment and breakthrough in your life, right? Where, when you're 30 years old, you're like, so you're starting to make a bit of money.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then I started making a lot of money. I started making millions of dollars a year, like pretty quickly. After maybe a couple of years of figuring out how to make money, then I make a million dollars. But I didn't know what to do with it, I didn't understand it still. I didn't have a relationship with money that was healthy yet. So I just kept stacking it and hoarding it and chasing after it. I was like, how can I get as much of this as possible? So I don't go back into a state of scarcity or sleeping on my sister's couch or relying on people. And that energy allowed me to succeed at it, but it didn't give me peace. It didn't give me financial peace or inner peace. It created an abundance of money, but no peace.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  So it wasn't until I started to learn how to heal my money wounds and my story around money, that I started to feel peaceful with the money that I had.

• 49:20Emma Grede?

  What did that look like for you? Because it's the hardest thing to try to, first of all, understand your money story, but then try to heal from it, because it shapes so, so many of your decisions. And I feel like so many of the mistakes I made when I first started in business came because I had a relationship that was deeply dysfunctional about money.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  About money.

• 49:41Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I come from a place where everyone was always like splashing cash all the time. And it really didn't matter if it was the last of the money they had. There was this spirit of generosity and everybody was out spending their money. And I think I followed like a lot of their patterns. So I'm interested to understand like how you got to a place where you were like, okay, I need to take responsibility here.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  I think it goes back to figuring out what we want. And for me, it's like, I wanted harmony. I didn't have harmony with my money. Because once you start making money, people want it from you. People start asking you for it, friends, family, and you're like, okay, I'll give you some, but then, oh, but they didn't pay me back when you say you would? Oh, then you only reach out when you want money from you? It starts to shift all of your relationships when you have money. When you're poor, it impacts your relationships. When you're rich, it impacts your relationships. And I didn't know how to navigate relationships with money. So my relationship to money had a negative impact as well. And I started to want more of it, to feel a sense of peace and security, but I didn't have security in my relationships. So it was all confused. And I think it went hand in hand.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  When I started to heal myself, my money started to heal as well and my relationship to it. Once I got clear on what do I really want with my relationship with money? If this was a, if this was my wife, hypothetically, what would I want this relationship to be? What does money want from me? Does it want me to be a taker? Does it want me to speak bad about it behind its back? Does it want me to never think about it and never care for it? Or if this was my wife or a, a relationship that mattered in my life, it would want me to pour into it. It wouldn't want me to be curious about it and asking questions. This might sound a little weird.

• 51:22Emma Grede?

  No, I don't think it does sound weird. It's actually funny because I don't think that that is how people approach their money story.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  They don't, they don't talk about it.

• 51:29Emma Grede?

  I don't, I don't think at all.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  They don't talk about it, they don't talk about it with anyone else. Or they'll say bad things about money.

• 51:35Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Most people. Maybe not in our circles, but kind of throwing out.

• 51:38Emma Grede?

  They're like, you know, figure it out like tomorrow, like it's like a backburner conversation.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, most people never even look at their bank account, they're worried about it, you know, they don't wanna think about it.

• 51:46Emma Grede?

  Because it's a source of anxiety for so many people, so I completely understand it.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Stress and anxiety.

• 51:51Emma Grede?

  But it doesn't become better when you don't.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Anytime, if you had stress and anxiety every time you thought about your husband, would you have a good marriage?

• 51:58Emma Grede?

  No, you would have a terrible marriage.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. So imagine.

• 52:00Emma Grede?

  But you'd leave him and find another husband, you know, so.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  And then you'd still be in stress and anxiety, because you wouldn't heal the root, right? You'd still be in that stress and anxiety. And so your conversation we had on my show, School of Grace, was we talked about a lot of these things. I think I even asked you the question, if money was a person and it walked in the room right now, imagine money was a person, walked in the room right now, what's the first thing that you would think or feel?

• 52:23Emma Grede?

  Oh, see, I, I feel at ease with it. I'd feel like it's an old friend.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yes, I think that's what you said on the show, yeah.

• 52:29Emma Grede?

  Did I?

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:30Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I feel like I've really reconciled with those relationships and I've taken ultimate responsibility. That's because I really understood what was shaping so many of my decisions and so many of my bad behaviors. So if you've got a negative money story, how do you even begin to change it? What do you do?

• 52:49Speaker 01

  I think go through that exercise. If money walked in the room, first off, how would you react to money? And you said, I would put my arm around it like it's an old friend.

• 52:57Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  And I'd feel at ease. But ask most people this question and they'll say they'll run and hide. They'll talk bad about money behind its back to someone else in the room. They'll be nervous. They'll look at it and judge it. They'll have this interpretation about money. So I think it's first like being aware of what is your relationship with money? If you ask yourself that question. And ask yourself, is that the relationship I want to have? Is that the way I want to think and feel around money in my life? If so, it's not going to serve me and support me and be my greatest version of me. I'm always going to have stress and discomfort around this relationship to money. So the first thing is just being aware of what is your relationship? And what is the money story that you have? You shared yours as well.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  And so start writing that down and being aware of your money story and why you think and believe the things you do about money. Don't make yourself right or wrong, good or bad. Just have the intel, have the information. From that place, it's creating a money vision. What is the relationship I want to have? Do I want it to be peaceful, abundant, fun, free, joyful? Or do I want to stay in stress and anxiety and scarcity?

• 54:03Emma Grede?

  And that I think you have to write down. I feel like there is no other way than to get like seriously planful around it.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  And then you've got to start taking steps and taking action and surround yourself with money mentors. You know, if I had the ability to be around you every single day, I would make more money just in your presence because of the way you interpret in your relationship with money. I would hear how you speak about it behind the scenes. I would hear how you wouldn't stress about it. I would hear how you talk about it so openly and so freely with team and friends and business colleagues. And I would learn the language of money from a money mentor and be around it and start speaking with that energy as well. And the more you invest in it, the more it will pour back into you. So you just have to ask yourself, what investment am I willing to make in my relationship with money?

• 54:52Speaker 01

  And I truly think money comes to you when you're ready for it. This is what a money mentor of mine said early on.

• 54:57Emma Grede?

  Oh, mine come way before I was ready for it.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  And if you're not ready, what happens?

• 55:01Emma Grede?

  It's really, it's really hard to manage.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  It's harder to manage.

• 55:03Emma Grede?

  Yeah. But also I do think, again, that there's two things that happen, right? There's the, the part that is like, how do you behave? And what is, what is your behavior do? And then it's oftentimes, I think, the reaction from everybody around you.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  And how did you?

• 55:16Emma Grede?

  And that is really difficult.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  And how did you react when everyone else around you looked at you differently? When you started to make money?

• 55:22Emma Grede?

  Not well.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  When they knew you from a previous.

• 55:24Emma Grede?

  Not well.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Life.

• 55:25Emma Grede?

  But what'd you think happened to that anger? That went right to the 10.

• 55:30Emma Grede?

  I didn't, I didn't do well with it. And again, you've, I've learned because so much of this comes from a sense of wanting to be a good person, of wanting to be a kind person, of coming from not much and feeling like it should all be shared. But actually, that doesn't help you do what you want to do with money, which is to create safety, which is to create, you know, this, whatever it is for your own family. And so I had to learn really, really quickly that what I'd created was mine to create. And when you're on a rocket ship, you can't take everybody else with you.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  And what happens to a lot of those relationships when you don't take them with you?

• 56:03Emma Grede?

  They fizzle, like the stuff at the, you know, that the rocket leaves behind. Unfortunately, it just is what it is. Now, that's really difficult for some people to say.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:11Emma Grede?

  But that is the reality. That's the truth.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  But what if someone says, but I'm such a loyal person, so I have to take everyone with me?

• 56:17Emma Grede?

  I don't know what's going to happen to that person. They're going to be broke.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  That's what I was gonna say.

• 56:21Emma Grede?

  That's what I think.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  They're gonna give all their money away.

• 56:23Emma Grede?

  It's not gonna last very long.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  They're gonna be drained.

• 56:25Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And you can't, you know, listen, I think that there is, especially when you come from a place like I do, there is this idea that you are going to look after people. And I think that your nearest and dearest, you'll want to keep them. But it can't be like a community exercise, right? It's not a community exercise. And like anything, there, there's a trade off. When you get a lot, you know, some things have to fall by the wayside. And that's what gives.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:52Emma Grede?

  Yeah. Sadly, sad but true.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  That was hard for me. That was hard for me.

• 56:56Emma Grede?

  I think it's hard for everybody, but it's the, it's, it's a reality.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  It is.

• 57:00Emma Grede?

  Right? And I think if we don't, if we're not really honest about that, if we don't talk about what actually happens, you'll be doing a disservice because it's not about, I don't know, it's just, it's not about everybody else.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:13Emma Grede?

  You know, what I do is for me.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Where do you struggle with money the most now? I'm only gonna ask a couple of questions.

• 57:20Emma Grede?

  No, so I like you asking me questions.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Where do you struggle the most with money now? You know, I walk into this, you know, office, there's tons of employees. You've got multiple businesses here. You've got multiple projects. You got trying to, you got tons of employees. You're trying to hire more employees. What is the, the biggest challenge around money at this level for you now?

• 57:37Emma Grede?

  I would say there is a weight of responsibility. It's not necessarily, I don't know if that's so much about money. That's more about the responsibility of care that you have for people that's all linked to their money. So let's be honest, right? Not everything works out as you would have hoped it to do. So it's like, if I have people that I feel responsible for, and then they don't live up to expectation and you need to let people go, that would still weigh on me heavily regardless of, you know, what I say and how quickly and decisively I'm going to act in my business. Those decisions, people related decisions as it relates to money will always be hard.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:14Emma Grede?

  But it doesn't stop me from making them. That's the truth.

• 58:22Emma Grede?

  We spend a lot of time thinking about how to get more value out of the things we buy. But one of the biggest payments most people make every month is for housing. And historically, that's been left out of the rewards conversation. That's why Bilt is such an interesting concept. As a Bilt member, you can earn points on your housing payments, whether you rent or own. And those points can be redeemed towards things like flights, hotels, Lyft rides, amazon.com purchases, and even future housing payments. And the membership goes beyond your housing payments. You can link any credit card or debit card to the Bilt app and earn points on eligible purchases at participating restaurants and other businesses in your neighborhood. The app also has a neighborhood concierge that can help you book a fitness class, make a dinner reservation

• 59:07Emma Grede?

  or schedule a lift while automatically applying your member benefits. Download the Bilt app and join the membership for where you live at joinbilt.com/emma. That's J O I N B I L T dot com slash emma. Use our link so they know we sent you.

• 59:25Speaker 02

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• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  for the work they want to get right. And these businesses are helping Anthropic shape what comes next. Build your business with support from Claude at claude.ai/odyssey.

• 1:00:25Emma Grede?

  You wrote a book, I don't know how many years ago now, The Mask of Masculinity. How many years ago was that?

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Nine.

• 1:00:30Emma Grede?

  Your book is so much about like what a man was supposed to be. Men are rewarded for turning pain into performance. What responsibility do you think that men have to one another that they are avoiding?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  With other men?

• 1:00:43Emma Grede?

  Yeah, with other, because I, I feel like, again, when I listen to you speak, I don't think that is a conversation that many men are having between themselves, with other men.

• 1:00:56Emma Grede?

  I wonder what's the responsibility that men have to each other?

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  I think one of the hardest things for a man to do with another man is be vulnerable with them and be really vulnerable with them about all of their insecurities. It's near impossible to find another man that you can open up to about your insecurities, your flaws, your fears and your doubts. And if you can find one male friend that you can open up to about all the things you're afraid of with relationships or work or business or life or anything, you have created an incredible safe environment in your life. And if you have a group of those male friends, it is a whole nother level of emotional safety. Most men do not feel emotionally safe. I know women don't feel it as well. But women have a tendency, more than men, to communicate with each other about their fears and insecurities.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Men typically don't do that. When you can find one friend or a group of friends that do that as men, it changes your life. So that's what I think men have the responsibility to do is have the courage to be more vulnerable with one male friend first and try to create a group where you can start to open up in certain ways.

• 1:02:00Emma Grede?

  I think that's really great advice. One of the things I wanted to talk about is because you're a father now and it changes so much. I know this from my own life. Do you think that becoming a father actually fundamentally changed your drive?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it changed the feeling of my drive. Because before it was more about me. And now it's about, I don't want to say it's about them. It's, it's not about them. And I think a lot of people say I do it for my family. And maybe, maybe I'll say that in the future. It's more about continuing to.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  I don't know, as weird as to say this, it's more about making sure that I'm proud of the person I'm becoming every year that they get to see for the future self, for my future self. Like, I want to be looked back in 10 years from now, 20, 50 years, hopefully, and say, man, I'm really proud of how I continue to show up and that my wife and my kids got to experience this version of me. Because I wasn't always this version. I was a version that was very scared and insecure and did things not, not from a place of pursuing my purpose or my calling out of a love. I was doing it out of scarcity and anger and resentment and fear. And I think if I reverted back to that, I'd be really let down for

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  myself. So I'm doing it to show them and to continue to show myself that life can look differently than it once was. And I think if I can model that for my kids, then what a beautiful opportunity they get to have as well. I'm not speaking from a place that like, I'm this man or this father that's figured life out perfectly. But I know what suffering felt like from, you know, parents that didn't create a safe environment. And I know the mistakes that I caused before my 30s and 40s. And I know what peace and love and acceptance feels like now. And I want to create more of those feelings and those moments and that environment for them that I didn't get to have. And I think that would be a huge success if I was able to create that.

• 1:03:58Emma Grede?

  What do you hope that your girls get from you as it relates to like your drive? And what do you hope ends with you?

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  I guess my big fear is that I give them too much love and they don't have any drive. I don't know if they're like so loved and accepted.

• 1:04:15Emma Grede?

  All successful parents feel like that.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Right? I don't know. Or that like,

• 1:04:18Emma Grede?

  You're like, you're gonna have the least grittiest, laziest kids.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  So I think that's the fear, but I don't think I'm gonna let that happen. But

• 1:04:23Emma Grede?

  Well, I don't think it happens when they see you pursuing your

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 1:04:28Emma Grede?

  Your purpose and your passion like you talk about, right?

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  But I don't know.

• 1:04:31Emma Grede?

  Because you're putting yourself in the center of your universe and, and aiming all of your work and all of your intention towards something you think you're made for. So that's what they're gonna say.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Just because I do that for me, doesn't mean I'm gonna be doing that for them. Because I can only imagine when a two-year-old can say dad, dad to me and look me in the eyes and smile and hold me.

• 1:04:49Emma Grede?

  Maybe game over.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  I don't know how I'm gonna react. I don't know how I'm gonna respond. So I think it's having the courage to be disciplined, even if I don't, if it means I may not receive the love that I want from them for moments. And, and so I don't know. I'm, I hope they grow up as beautiful, loving, giving, generous souls.

• 1:05:08Emma Grede?

  And what would you want them to leave behind?

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  I want them to live a life of service, you know? And I think if they live their lives not trying to prove their worth and their love from me, that would be the most incredible thing, I think. Because most of us try to prove something to our parents. And if they just said, I'm not proving anything, dad, to you. I'm pursuing a life that is a calling to serve others and to live a joyful life. I think that's a great life. It's like, it doesn't matter how much money they make. I think it's really about did they pursue a joyful, beautiful life with their calling.

• 1:05:45Emma Grede?

  Amazing that you give them permission to do that.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  That's the goal.

• 1:05:48Emma Grede?

  It's a big thing. Now, I know the Olympic thing and that goal is a big dream to you, but I want you to give me a different answer because I really want to know, what do you still aspire to do or become?

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  My dream is to be an Olympian.

• 1:06:01Emma Grede?

  That's it, period. I knew you were gonna say that.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dream is to be an Olympian, is to represent USA in the LA 2020 Olympics. And I discovered the sport of handball in 2008, when I was on my sister's couch with a broken wrist, trying to figure out who I was gonna be in the world. I just got done playing football. I had no money. I was broke as a joke. And I lost my identity. And I saw this sport at 3:00 AM on TV, the Beijing Olympics, and I was like, that is my calling. I was like, that is meant for me. Two years later, this is how I learned how to make money. I needed to leave Ohio. So I figured out how to make money so I could move to New York City and learn from one of the top teams in, in New York, in the country.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  After moving to New York City to pursue handball, I made the USA national team a year later. For a decade, I was on the team, traveling around the world, representing USA on my chest internationally. And it's one of the greatest feelings in the world to represent USA for me. It's one of the best gifts I've ever had. And I want to get back there. And so I'm pursuing it. And that is the dream and that is the vision.

• 1:07:12Emma Grede?

  I love it. I really love it.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  And people have told me not to do it. Because they're like, you have your business and you're distracting yourself and just go make more money. And you could be even bigger if you had this energy all towards your business. But I'm like, life is about the adventures as well. And the, and it's just, if there's something in your soul that just keeps screaming at you to pursue, I feel like you need to do it. And it doesn't mean it's gonna always work out in your favor.

• 1:07:38Emma Grede?

  Listen, a million percent, and you have the, like, the ability, it's like, actually within reach, of course you have to do it.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:07:44Emma Grede?

  You know you can do this. Okay, we only have rapid fire to go. So just a few questions for you. All right. What is one piece of wellness advice that you think is complete bullshit?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Sleep when you're dead. I don't know if that's wellness advice, but I hear that a lot.

• 1:07:58Emma Grede?

  All the time.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:59Emma Grede?

  What's your comfort food?

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  What's not my comfort food? This, this is my weakness. Like food, like sugar, anything sugar related is my weakness. Cakes, cookies, ice creams, ooh.

• 1:08:12Emma Grede?

  That does not work for the Olympian.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't.

• 1:08:14Emma Grede?

  No, no, no, no, no, no. What's a song that instantly gets you fired up?

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  We are the champions. I just came to my line.

• 1:08:24Emma Grede?

  Is there a podcast guest that made you feel very nervous?

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Kobe, Kobe Bryant, made me feel very nervous. Yeah. But the moment I met him, he relieved all my nerves.

• 1:08:35Emma Grede?

  Because what?

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  He was a giver. He was, at least with me, he was very generous, very giver, right away, was so grateful to meet me. And I was like, you're grateful to meet me? So he was such a big giver. The whole day, I mean, I don't know if this is rapid, but the whole day was like, okay, you've got 20 minutes and there's another production. And Lil Wayne was there with his production company. All these people were there. And it was like, you've got 20 minutes. Here are three pages that you can't ask him these questions. These topics are off limits. Like, there were so many restrictions around this interview. And in three minutes that I had with him, from him greeting me, us putting the mics on, sitting down until we started, we had three minutes, I asked him three questions. And at the end of that, he's, he literally said, ask me anything you want and take as

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  long as you need. And I was like, all right, welcome everyone to the School of Greatness. We have Kobe Bryant. And it was just a cool environment that he was so willing to break the mold of what everything was telling him not to do.

• 1:09:31Emma Grede?

  That is so cool.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Emma Grede?

  I love that. Give, what's one question that you asked him? What did you say?

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Be for the next episode.

• 1:09:37Emma Grede?

  Oh, I need to know.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  It was really more of like, I actually asked him about handball. I said, you know, I said, listen, I said,

• 1:09:44Emma Grede?

  Let me make it about me a second, Kobe.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  No, I asked him about the Olympics. I said, listen, I wanted to acknowledge you. Right away, when I was putting the mic on him, I said, I want to acknowledge you because I have some Olympic friends who said that you are like the coolest guy at the Olympics. Like, you took photos with everyone. You were like constantly going to watch other people. And you were like the biggest fan of everyone else. And I just wanted to acknowledge you. And I said, have you ever heard of handball? And he said, I love handball. I saw it when I was growing up in Italy. And it was like something I love.

• 1:10:12Emma Grede?

  Huge in Europe. Yeah.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  So he was like, I love it. And so we started talking about handball. And then I asked him about other people we knew in common. I said, you know, Novak Djokovic, he says great things about you. And he's like, that's my brother. He's got a killer mindset. And I love the way he attacks the tennis court. And, and I said, is there anything else off limits? And he said, ask me anything you want, take as long as you need.

• 1:10:33Emma Grede?

  Good to go.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  I was like, awesome.

• 1:10:34Emma Grede?

  That's amazing. Such a good story. I had to get that for you. All right. Very last question. Is there a book that has changed your perspective?

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  The book that's changed my perspective is The Alchemist. I was, I read it at a season when I was in my early twenties, when I was going through some challenges. And it was all about discovering the treasure within you. And I was constantly trying to prove things outwardly and trying to find treasure outwardly. And this was kind of coming back to yourself and discovering that there's a treasure within you. So I like that story.

• 1:11:08Emma Grede?

  I love that story. Lewis, thank you so much.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Thanks, Sam. I appreciate it.

• 1:11:11Emma Grede?

  So good.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Appreciate you.

• 1:11:12Emma Grede?

  Thank you.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Amazing. Appreciate it.

• 1:11:13Emma Grede?

  You're so wonderful. That was great.

• 1:11:18Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Ashley McShan, Derek Brown, and me. Executive producers from Odyssey are Asha Saluja and Leah Reese Dennis. Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Phil Sweetech and Carla Stelgada. Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale. Special

• 1:12:01Emma Grede?

  thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company, and WME. Josefina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Viera. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Grede is spelled G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E, with Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.