The One Who Stays and the One Who Goes

They met in vet school and married just as they reached graduation. But now his work takes him around the world, forcing them to live apart for months at a time. He’s ready to start a family, but she’s hesitant: how can they think about children when they’re often separated by distance? As they wonder about their next phase of life, Esther helps them uncover what sits beneath the surface: the loneliness of the one who stays, the guilt of the one who goes, and the challenge of learning to stay connected across miles of separation. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counselling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  When is the end of the day? And you're settled into the couch looking for your evening watch? You're not looking for Homework the Movie. You're looking for comfort, excitement, or something in between. Whether you're craving something familiar or in the mood to discover something new, Amazon Prime has what you need, from screen to doorstep. Because it's not just about genres or endless content. It's about finding the thing that matches how you're feeling, whatever the mood. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalised products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 1:31Esther Perel?

  They met in veterinary school, and they were five years together, where they had very much of a shared reality, both professionally and on a daily basis.

• 1:42Speaker 04

  I always joke that if you can get through vet school together, you can pretty much do anything. I was basically in the trenches together, trying to get through that.

• 1:51Speaker 05

  I mean, we have both been through just kind of very stressful, you know, veterinary school. It's not a walk in the park.

• 1:59Esther Perel?

  Now he's in graduate school and that has taken him into the field for months on end. And there have been a lot of challenges about how they are both living different realities.

• 2:13Speaker 05

  He travels often for his work, usually gone for weeks to months, which leaves me working my full-time job, dealing with all of our animals and the house by myself, which can be really taxing for me.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  I am extremely passionate about what I do. Every time I get an opportunity to work in Kenya where I work, it feels like a life-changing experience. Really impactful, personal growth and opportunity. And I have incredibly close relationships with the people who I work with.

• 2:51Speaker 05

  And when he comes back, he is excited to share this experience that he had, which was so positive for him, but unfortunately was so negative for me that it can make that conversation difficult.

• 3:07Esther Perel?

  And it has brought up a lot of other challenges around intimacy, trust, togetherness and separateness. And around the next developmental question, can we talk about having a child?

• 3:22Speaker 04

  International travel has definitely featured in the discussion that we've been having about starting a family, or rather the discussion we haven't been having.

• 3:30Speaker 05

  He is wanting to take that next step in his life, wanting to start a family. And I don't feel ready for that.

• 3:39Speaker 04

  A few months ago, I brought it up again and the response that I got was, "We can talk about it in October." The target keeps moving. If the answer is no, that's truly devastating. But what's worse than a no is just being led on, basically. Like, there's never any kind of resolution.

• 3:58Speaker 05

  I feel myself constantly saying, "But can you see it from my perspective? Do you understand why I feel the way that I feel?"

• 4:08Esther Perel?

  The session was on Zoom because they both claimed challenges around their professional schedules. And there were eight pets that joined us for the session: guinea pigs, cats, dogs. They were very present, they made noise, they came to comfort, they had the physical experience that I did not have. So when they talk about bringing in a child into the family, it's because they already define themselves as a family.

• 4:47Esther Perel?

  All right.

• 4:49Esther Perel?

  Give me a sense as to why we are here today and what would make this a helpful conversation?

• 4:58Speaker 06

  Well, I feel like I could start since I'm the one who did reach out. So I was sort of feeling desperate, like I don't know how to change the conversation we're having.

• 5:09Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 5:10Speaker 06

  Because what we've been talking about in terms of having kids or starting a family, I would say we already have a family with all of our pets, but I would say non-pet family.

• 5:21Esther Perel?

  Are any of them present in our session today?

• 5:24Speaker 06

  Oh, there's a lot.

• 5:25Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 5:26Esther Perel?

  Right here?

• 5:27Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 5:28Speaker 07

  There's one there.

• 5:29Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 5:30Speaker 07

  I have four in the room.

• 5:33Speaker 06

  There's a couple of dogs down there. I have a bunch of guinea pigs right here to my left. So it's sort of a zoo.

• 5:40Esther Perel?

  All right. And are they important participants in the conversation about children?

• 5:52Speaker 07

  I would say yes.

• 5:54Speaker 06

  I would say yes in two ways. One, I think we've demonstrated an ability to care for animals and be caregivers. But two, it really comes into play when we talk about me being gone for long periods of time, which has been a sticking point of this conversation.

• 6:16Esther Perel?

  So, explain just a tiny bit, you you travel for work?

• 6:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we both went to veterinary school together. And then she is a clinician. I fell in love with research and specifically working internationally. And now I'm in the final year of my PhD and have plans to continue my international vet medicine slash research career. During the PhD, I was basically abroad for two months of the year. And it's a bit of a conflict because if I'm successful in my career, I'll continue traveling. But it feels like it's coming at the expense of starting a family

• 7:05Speaker 06

  due to the logistical and other difficulties around it. So I think that's a big barrier.

• 7:10Esther Perel?

  And that is something that the two of you see, or that's just your point of view?

• 7:22Esther Perel?

  Because you share a lot. You went to school together, so you you definitely had a very much of a shared reality. And in effect, you may have had to talk about things less because you were both living some of the same things. And the shared reality spoke for itself.

• 7:42Esther Perel?

  Um, so you find yourself now needing to communicate because after five years you did graduate school together, you are now in a developmental stage that is one of differentiation in which each of you is trying to define themselves. You're in a process of needing to articulate

• 8:04Esther Perel?

  your needs, your pursuits, your ambitions. A whole range of things to articulate that are no longer provided by the circumstances of your life alone.

• 8:18Esther Perel?

  Does that make sense?

• 8:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, definitely.

• 8:21Esther Perel?

  So, what about that rank through for you?

• 8:25Speaker 07

  Well, so I would one hundred percent agree that us going to school together, that it was very much of a shared experience. I personally have found that in our professional life, things have gotten a little more difficult for us communication wise because we're both very passionate about our professional lives and it, you know, it's basically kind of all we do. Um, but I think that like he can sometimes get quite frustrated because I don't participate in as much back and forth and true conversation about his research and stuff because I just don't have the understanding that he does. So I try to be an active listener and engage when I can.

• 9:10Speaker 07

  But because I don't have the same curiosity about the subject that he does, I know that that frustrates him.

• 9:16Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you?

• 9:17Speaker 07

  Yeah, sure.

• 9:19Esther Perel?

  You say, my interest is there.

• 9:25Esther Perel?

  Does he trust it?

• 9:27Speaker 07

  It feels like he doesn't.

• 9:29Esther Perel?

  Okay, so that's, you see, it's less content and topic related and it's more relational.

• 9:37Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 9:40Esther Perel?

  What good does it do for you to say I'm really care and I'm interested? And I'm an active listener? If he doesn't believe it, or if it somehow doesn't come through?

• 9:53Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 9:55Esther Perel?

  What is it that we are each doing? That lends the other person that lack of trust?

• 10:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, maybe I could just add something. Cause when you initially were saying about divergent paths post grad school.

• 10:14Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:14Speaker 06

  That really resonated with me and I think something that's very characteristic of that is the actual experience that I have working abroad and it's really meaningful to me professionally, but also personally. Living and working in a different culture and having these experiences with my collaborators and also community members who I get to work really closely with. And one thing that happens.

• 10:42Speaker 06

  Is I have a really hard time coming back to the US unlike reentry.

• 10:48Esther Perel?

  Um hum.

• 10:48Speaker 06

  Um. It's almost like reverse culture shock.

• 10:51Esther Perel?

  And you rely, this is a question, do you feel that you rely strongly on her overtly or covertly to help you cross the bridge and reenter?

• 11:06Speaker 06

  Well, I think the issue with that is honestly, I would like to rely on her more, but often what happens is that I feel guilty for enjoying my time there so much.

• 11:16Esther Perel?

  Um hum.

• 11:16Speaker 06

  Because the message that I get is.

• 11:19Esther Perel?

  Hold on.

• 11:20Speaker 06

  You're finally back.

• 11:21Esther Perel?

  Hold on, hold on. Say it to her directly.

• 11:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, so when I come back, it's very hard for me to rely on you to help that process because I have a lingering sense of guilt for being gone. And also for liking what I'm doing so much while you are having a hard time.

• 11:52Speaker 07

  I think the hard part for me is that he enjoys.

• 11:55Esther Perel?

  Talk, talk to him, talk to him.

• 11:59Esther Perel?

  You came here to talk to each other differently. I heard your initial statement. How do we change the conversation between us? It doesn't matter what we start to talk about. We're certainly not gonna start talking about the most challenging, which is kids. Okay?

• 12:16Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 12:19Speaker 07

  So when you come back, it feels like we are not good enough.

• 12:29Esther Perel?

  Who is we?

• 12:30Speaker 07

  We as in me and all of the menagerie.

• 12:36Speaker 07

  Of animals.

• 12:37Speaker 06

  All the animals.

• 12:37Speaker 07

  That one day, if that conversation of a family is alive and present, there's gonna be more than just a me and the animals. And whenever you come back, it just feels like you're so upset about not being there, that you're not present with us. Like, the last time you came back, you didn't even wanna give me a hug or a kiss. Like, it was after being alone for months. That's what makes it really hard for me, is that you come home and you're so frustrated that you're back.

• 13:13Esther Perel?

  But that's not how you feel. That's how you perceive him.

• 13:18Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 13:19Esther Perel?

  If I understand what you're saying about how you feel, when you come back, I feel more lonely even than when you're gone.

• 13:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's true.

• 13:32Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 13:32Speaker 06

  For like a week, for like two weeks.

• 13:37Speaker 07

  But it.

• 13:39Esther Perel?

  And you're trying to, eh, hold on, hold on. What did you try to do with this? What was this comment about? Meaning to say, I don't stay in that state, it takes me a week or two.

• 13:53Speaker 06

  It's a transitional state, yeah.

• 13:54Esther Perel?

  Right. But another week or two, after two months.

• 14:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:02Esther Perel?

  For you, it's just two weeks. For her, it's two, three months plus two weeks.

• 14:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think if I can respond to that, so.

• 14:13Esther Perel?

  Oh, she was in the middle of something, so we're gonna let her.

• 14:16Speaker 06

  Keep going.

• 14:16Esther Perel?

  Continue, yes, and I'm sure you have responses. Perhaps this is more about what really goes on for her?

• 14:29Esther Perel?

  Cause you're very busy with what goes on for you.

• 14:36Esther Perel?

  Can we try that?

• 14:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:38Esther Perel?

  Okay. Go ahead.

• 14:42Speaker 07

  Um.

• 14:45Speaker 07

  It just feels like, again, we're just not exciting enough. I know you have wanderlust and that's okay. I think it's hard for me because I don't get that opportunity. I don't have the flexibility to do the stuff that you do. And some of that is because I'm a major provider for our family and our lifestyle. And I feel that pressure of, well, if I'm not working, then these things can't happen. And so I think that's where maybe some of this pent-up frustration and loneliness and everything comes from because I, it feels like I'm in a constant hamster wheel

• 15:28Speaker 07

  of my day-to-day and you get this exciting life where you can do whatever you want. And I don't know.

• 15:37Speaker 06

  Well, I think it's because you can't have your perfect career. You know, I get to pursue my dreams and your dreams are put on the back burner.

• 15:50Esther Perel?

  It's a striking moment. Someone has just said, I don't feel that we matter. And after all that, he says it's because you don't get to do what you really want to do. That is a response that doesn't really invite one to feel heard. It doesn't feel to me that he is truly listening to her to understand what she may be experiencing. I have more of a sense that he's listening in order to justify, rationalize, and that no matter what she's trying to say about how she feels, he comes back with an explanation and she relinquishes.

• 16:32Esther Perel?

  And I'm beginning to experience that it is not a given for her to claim her space. What she's actually talking about is how she thinks he doesn't value her and he seems to be disappointed at his home and he seems to be frustrated. When in fact, what she's really trying to say is, I feel very lonely when you're gone, but I feel even more lonely when you're back. And that is when I'm beginning to ask, is this indicative of more? This doesn't feel to me like it's just a one-time thing. These begin to feel like patterns.

• 17:12Speaker 07

  Well, my dreams weren't support. What we, we want to be doing in our life right now. Right now, that's just not in the cards. So yeah, there is a level of me being frustrated about that.

• 17:27Speaker 06

  I, I personally see a lot of our parent dynamics playing out in this scenario. Growing up, my dad was gone for four months out of the year for work. And that was just normal for me.

• 17:39Esther Perel?

  Can you give me a tiny bit of context for this?

• 17:44Speaker 06

  So my parents are wildlife biologists. They work in the field. My dad's kind of retired now, but growing up, you know, there were four months of the year that he was in the field, quite far away, at least within the US. And that was just sort of a normal rhythm of life. But I know being gone for him was really difficult. And I think he was very lonely. And I know he really missed being at home.

• 18:13Esther Perel?

  And you?

• 18:15Speaker 06

  Me in terms of like that period?

• 18:17Esther Perel?

  No, me, I decided that I was gonna do this better. And I wasn't gonna be lonely when I travel.

• 18:32Esther Perel?

  Actually, his question was the one I should have stayed with. Were you lonely? There is a story to the loneliness of the person who is gone and the loneliness of the person who stays and the loneliness of the children who are in the center of this whole thing. I do think that there is a dialogue between him and her that is happening, but also between him and the boy that he was, and maybe between him and his father.

• 19:04Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 19:39Speaker 08

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 20:08Speaker 09

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected, powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 20:40Esther Perel?

  Do you ever miss home when you travel? Or you're so satiated in your assignment that it feels like it's another world? And you don't really know how to maintain the connection?

• 20:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, I would say that. When I'm doing that work, I have a really good ability to focus on like a goal. I'm like singularly focused on collecting the data, making the connections. Everything is really, really intensive.

• 21:15Esther Perel?

  So what I'm hearing from you is I have no problem being away, but I compartmentalize to such a degree that I don't know how to hold on. You know, your challenge is the opposite of your dad. Your dad couldn't be away. You can't stay connected. You want a kid, but it's not clear that you will know how to stay connected to the kid. Who stays back? So you've kind of taken out all the difficult pieces. The loss and the longing. You've plucked out and you've kept the adventure.

• 21:51Esther Perel?

  And when you come back, I don't know if you relate to what your wife says to you. And she says, this is weird thing. There's something in the two-week period that leaves your wife feeling that she pales in comparison.

• 22:10Esther Perel?

  And she understands your passion, but she doesn't like the feeling that emanates toward her from your passion.

• 22:21Esther Perel?

  And when you respond to her, you go right back to your passion. And I don't know if you ever address that icky feeling that she gets.

• 22:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's really tied up with guilt for me.

• 22:40Esther Perel?

  Okay. But the guilt is for how much you enjoy being out there? Or the guilt is for how little enthusiasm you have for coming home?

• 22:52Esther Perel?

  Because you always talk about, I feel guilty about how much fun I'm having out there. And I'm wondering, where is the reflection on how little enthusiasm?

• 23:05Esther Perel?

  To the point where no kiss, no hug, just kind of let down?

• 23:10Speaker 06

  Yeah. I have a hard time with that example because the no kiss, no hug thing was because I literally lost part of my luggage, but.

• 23:20Esther Perel?

  How many days did it take you to get to the hug and the kiss after that?

• 23:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 23:25Esther Perel?

  So, don't.

• 23:28Speaker 06

  Well, I think it happened that day, just not at the airport.

• 23:32Speaker 07

  Right, it was maybe hours later, but after. Not seeing you for eight weeks.

• 23:39Speaker 06

  There wasn't like the excitement running to each other across the terminal. I mean, I mean, I'm being a little. Dramatic, but just there wasn't that moment. Yeah, I think the guilt, so there's something I remember from two years ago that really. Defines it. When you called me trying to get the snow blower to work. Do you remember this? So there's a big time difference, right? I think it's eight hours. So it was like six or seven in the morning for you, so it was like.

• 24:12Speaker 07

  It was four o'clock in the morning for me, cause I had to go to work at six AM.

• 24:17Speaker 06

  Got it, four o'clock.

• 24:18Speaker 07

  Sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted.

• 24:20Speaker 06

  And so I'm sitting on the phone with you. And you are frustratingly trying to use the snow blower. To clear our very short driveway, which is something that I would do. And we of course learn later that the shear pins are broken, doesn't matter, basically it wasn't working and it wasn't gonna work. And so I'm sort of sitting there on the phone thinking. What the heck am I supposed to do in this situation? If I was at home, I would. Figure this out. And so a lot of that guilt. For me is like those things that I would normally be taking care of, I can't. I am not there to help you.

• 25:05Speaker 06

  And to me, that's where the guilt is coming from a lot.

• 25:13Speaker 07

  I remember that story very differently, but that's okay.

• 25:16Speaker 06

  No, I'm actually would love to hear what you remember of it, cause it's so clear to me. I was like on the phone like shit, like I don't know how to solve this. I can't do anything.

• 25:27Speaker 07

  Well, as I said, I remember it being four o'clock in the morning, not seven or eight. Cause it was dark.

• 25:35Speaker 06

  I had the time on, yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 07

  Our three hundred foot long driveway, not short driveway, that was covered in about six plus inches of wet, heavy snow. Before I had to leave and be gone at work all day for twelve hours and leave our pets alone. In the middle of winter and I was on the verge of tears because I was so frustrated that I was gonna be late for work. And needing your help, yes, there was a component where that he could not help me, um. But I didn't know what else to do. Who was I gonna call at four o'clock in the morning to help me?

• 26:21Speaker 07

  And that was only within the first couple of weeks of you being gone for the first time. And that for me is what kind of sealed the experience in a lot of ways that this is not fun, which is why I said you're not allowed to go in the middle of winter anymore. Although now I have a plow guy that comes and plows our driveway that I had to find.

• 26:41Speaker 06

  That's what I was gonna say is like, the end of that story is you called the guy up the street who runs a plow business and now he just does it.

• 26:49Speaker 07

  But that didn't change that experience.

• 26:54Speaker 06

  Right.

• 26:58Esther Perel?

  She has now tried three times

• 27:02Esther Perel?

  to talk about her distress

• 27:06Esther Perel?

  in various different forms. First by making the time accurate. It was the middle of the night. Second, by telling him that it wasn't a short drive, but it's actually a long drive. And third, by telling him that the fact that she was able to find someone to help her with the snow blower didn't change her experience emotionally. So she's not giving up. But she's doing it in a very gentle and a very minor way.

• 27:43Esther Perel?

  I'm going to wind us back a moment.

• 27:48Esther Perel?

  Because you brought in this example to talk about the difference between feeling guilty about how much you enjoy your immersion on your field work versus how guilty you may feel about the disconnect when you come home. And when you described the situation and you're saying, "I felt so bad that I couldn't help. I couldn't do anything."

• 28:20Esther Perel?

  Did you communicate that?

• 28:23Speaker 06

  Not well at the time, I don't think so. I think I was just like, "You could try this." I was trying to problem solve.

• 28:30Esther Perel?

  So you are great problem solvers, both of you.

• 28:36Esther Perel?

  But what you could add is a little more padding.

• 28:41Esther Perel?

  "I'm so sorry you have to deal with this." It's not the same as, "I don't know what to do."

• 28:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 28:50Esther Perel?

  "I feel bad for you for having to deal with this in the middle of the night like this. I hate to see you alone, having to do all of this." That's padding. And that is a piece to learn and to introduce in the way that you communicate.

• 29:11Esther Perel?

  That's why she's calling. She's not calling for you to solve. She understands that you can't handle it and especially if the machine is broken, there's not much you're going to do. She's smart.

• 29:24Esther Perel?

  Now, I'm not sure that you know that that's what you're asking from him either. This is a dimension that is kind of kept tucked under between the two of you.

• 29:37Esther Perel?

  Because you are problem solvers and so you don't address the problem of the emotions, which don't have a solution. They're just paradoxes that you manage,

• 29:51Esther Perel?

  not problems that you solve.

• 29:56Speaker 06

  That's a great way to put it.

• 29:59Speaker 06

  Maybe if I can ask a question, would that experience have been different for you if I had just been supportive as opposed to? I don't know how well you remember what I was saying, but.

• 30:10Esther Perel?

  Doesn't matter, it has happened many times.

• 30:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:14Esther Perel?

  And it's a beautiful question you just asked. That's a relational question. That's not about the snow or the blow, that's about your wife.

• 30:26Speaker 07

  Um, I think it would. I do feel like in general, you tend to jump to problem solving, which I've just grown accustomed to at this point. And I don't necessarily hold it against you, but I know you don't like to hear someone just to invent. But sometimes that's what I need.

• 30:50Esther Perel?

  I need to be able to call you in the middle of feeling bad.

• 30:53Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 30:54Esther Perel?

  While I know that you can't help me to feel better.

• 30:58Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 30:59Esther Perel?

  The issue is I'm really frustrated and I'm not blaming you for it either. I'm just frustrated with the situation.

• 31:05Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 31:07Esther Perel?

  But because you feel guilty, you don't know how to give her the space to feel bad. Or you're gonna say, there's nothing I can do about it. And I'm gonna say you can do a ton, which is simply to be there for her.

• 31:19Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 31:22Esther Perel?

  Would that make a difference for you?

• 31:27Speaker 07

  I think it would. A lot of the time of where he's gone, it very much feels like I can't talk about the challenges that I'm experiencing because he's gonna feel guilty about it. It's, well, why'd you bring that up? Now I feel guilty because I can't do anything about it. And I think that if I had more of that emotional support, I think that would definitely. Make me at least feel more seen of just like this person that's here to care for the animals and the house so that there's not a fire. Speaking of fires, there's a lot of fires that I have to put out when you're not here.

• 32:09Speaker 07

  And it definitely, again, going back to that whole conversation of guilt, I feel like I can't express how I'm feeling because then you'll feel guilty. And that's never been my goal, and I'm pretty sure I've even said that multiple times of like, I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty.

• 32:30Esther Perel?

  We only have one session and we have three hours. And every move, they're getting closer to something that is truly important between them. This notion that I can't feel bad, because if I feel bad, you feel guilty. And therefore I have to contain this. That in itself could be weeks of work together. What is actually happening to him? What is the sense of helplessness that he feels if he can't solve a problem? And what is the difference between being supportive and fixing? And what does it take for us to be able to actually tolerate the distress of our partner?

• 33:13Esther Perel?

  Without being instantly reactive and wanting it to stop. And one of the ways we want it to stop is by telling them, don't do it, or by us fixing it so that they have nothing to feel bad about anymore. It's a ton of dynamics that are so familiar to so many of us that are just coming up here in one conversation. But still, I am not convinced that the guilt is the central issue. There is something bigger underneath that I hope we will get to.

• 33:45Speaker 07

  When you're traveling, we maybe talk on the phone twice a week. And why would I waste that time starting an argument? Because I'm telling you something that's gonna make you frustrated. And that's partly why I close in, because

• 34:08Speaker 07

  I look forward so much when you're gone to talking to you. Like, I just, I wouldn't wanna waste that time.

• 34:17Esther Perel?

  Do you know how much she's looking forward to talking to you?

• 34:23Speaker 06

  Uh, no.

• 34:24Esther Perel?

  She just said it, but I don't know that that's said very often.

• 34:28Speaker 06

  I really don't.

• 34:29Esther Perel?

  Wow.

• 34:31Speaker 06

  I don't know why I feel uncomfortable on the phone, especially in those circumstances. Just feels like there's a lot of pressure, because we're maybe talking twice a week. It's almost like an anticipation of something bad is gonna happen. And then it gets to the point where I'd rather compartmentalize it or not dwell on it so that it doesn't make me upset. It's not like that every time, but yeah, sometimes there's a sense of dread.

• 35:04Esther Perel?

  It's really sad.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  It's not universal.

• 35:12Esther Perel?

  And I dread what?

• 35:15Speaker 06

  The guilt or stress or conflict.

• 35:19Esther Perel?

  So unpack that one for us, please.

• 35:24Speaker 06

  I'm trying to figure out how much I should get into here.

• 35:30Speaker 06

  So I grew up in a pretty emotionally volatile household with a lot of outbursts. And learned how to deal with that in my own way, but I think the most direct way I learned how to deal with it was having a singular focus on something and not

• 35:51Speaker 06

  not letting my emotions get out of whack. So that's why avoidance is a common occurrence.

• 35:59Esther Perel?

  But I'm gonna ask you. So you said, how much shall I say?

• 36:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:04Esther Perel?

  Enough that the sadness that she just felt is sadness for you and not that she's the source of the sadness.

• 36:19Esther Perel?

  So you talked about the guilt. You talked about what it was like to be the kid who saw your parents deal with these long absences. How did they handle it? What did you do with the volatility? And how did you become a master at compartmentalizing? And when you compartmentalize to the way you do, it's hard for you to be away and to say to her, "I miss you."

• 36:55Speaker 06

  It is, yeah.

• 36:57Esther Perel?

  Without feeling guilty about the fact that you're gone, which then makes her feel lonely. It's like, how do I hold two feelings at the same time? I'm glad to be in the field and I miss you.

• 37:14Speaker 06

  I have a very hard time with that.

• 37:16Esther Perel?

  Okay. How do we change the conversation is going to involve your learning to do more of that.

• 37:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:29Esther Perel?

  And I suspect that this is what he had to learn when his father was in the field. This notion of how do you feel close and connected even when you're gone is actually a very important concept. It starts in what babies experience called object constancy, right? It's what allows us to play hide and seek. That's the playful version of where we practice this all the time afterwards. The person is there even when I don't see them is one of the essential pieces of internalizing connection and building trust.

• 38:11Esther Perel?

  And what he's saying is, "I don't know how to do that. If I go in the field, I forget about my whole life. I don't know how to internalize it and hold it." So the guilt becomes the way with which he holds on to the connection while at the same time be gone.

• 38:33Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 39:17Speaker 08

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 39:45Speaker 09

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected, powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month, or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 40:17Speaker 06

  What's weird is that I have an easier time telling other people I'm with how important you are than I do to directly tell you when we're talking on the phone. Like, that doesn't make any sense to me.

• 40:30Speaker 06

  Why is that? I mean, all I do is rave about you to everyone I know. And yet, when we're actually having the conversation, it's hard, and I don't understand that.

• 40:40Speaker 07

  I don't know how to answer that for you.

• 40:43Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't get it.

• 40:45Esther Perel?

  What is it you avoid? What's the fear in saying to the person that's next to you how much you care about them and how important they are to you?

• 40:58Speaker 06

  There shouldn't be, that's why I'm confused.

• 41:02Esther Perel?

  But there shouldn't be in a rational logic, but there often is in an emotional logic. So you're saying I have the hardest time saying I love you to the person I love the most.

• 41:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, sorry, you're um opening up a lot of feelings with that one. I think the people who you are closest with have the biggest capacity to hurt you. And I feel like unintentionally, I keep some distance from you to protect myself. Which I don't feel that way logically.

• 41:51Speaker 06

  But it seems like your family has such an easy time saying I love you. You almost had to teach me how to do that, because I did not have that as a practice. I still feel weird saying that out loud. So I would like to learn from you how to do that better. And be intentional about it, because that's actually how I feel.

• 42:14Speaker 07

  I can try to be better at teaching you.

• 42:25Esther Perel?

  This was such an interesting moment, because at the moment he says, I would like you to teach me to say I love you. The dog came immediately over to him and licked his hands. And I thought, maybe it's actually easier for him to say I love you to the dog. And it won't be unusual in many families that a certain kind of emotionality and expressiveness of tender feelings can be expressed to the pet or even through the caressing of the pet in ways that people cannot do with each other.

• 43:06Speaker 06

  Something you said earlier is something that I ask myself constantly, which is I do not have to pursue a career in what I'm doing. I was a small animal vet for a year. I didn't want to pursue it as a career.

• 43:22Speaker 06

  But it's a wonderful profession and I'm qualified and capable and able to do that. And I would be right here for however long the next, you know, thirty, forty years I could work in vet med and have a really successful career or everything.

• 43:39Esther Perel?

  Or is it okay and easy for you to acknowledge that the way that she has set up her career is what is enabling you to do the field work that you are doing?

• 43:53Speaker 06

  I would say not just the field work, but like our lifestyle.

• 43:57Esther Perel?

  Our lifestyle.

• 43:57Speaker 06

  So the fact that we bought a house, not even to get into my student debt situation, but the fact that we're paying a mortgage and have cars and are able to travel, that is two thirds plus supported by her.

• 44:15Esther Perel?

  And can you comfortably acknowledge it without it choking you with guilt?

• 44:21Speaker 06

  Yes, but the logical part of me says, why are you putting so much pressure in this situation? When if you just did something different, everything would be a lot easier.

• 44:32Speaker 06

  Why am I the way I am and want to do all these other things?

• 44:35Esther Perel?

  But that's part of the guilt talk. So you're back thinking about you.

• 44:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 44:41Esther Perel?

  And it makes it more difficult for you to actually say, I'm such a lucky guy.

• 44:48Esther Perel?

  I am passionate about something. I'm quite selfish about it. And I'm so lucky to have you and I owe you so much.

• 44:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. I have a maybe a question that would help this. So if I can ask.

• 45:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, of course.

• 45:05Speaker 06

  So, how do you perceive me within the context of what I do? And if I did something different, would that change? Like, are you attracted or impressed by it, or would you just wish that I did something different?

• 45:21Speaker 07

  You're asking me if my attraction to you revolves around what you do for your career?

• 45:27Esther Perel?

  Would you respect me equally if I did something?

• 45:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, like, how much does it play into it?

• 45:33Speaker 07

  It doesn't.

• 45:34Speaker 06

  So it's not a benefit at all? It's it's just detracting.

• 45:40Speaker 07

  It.

• 45:43Speaker 07

  I value your confidence, your intelligence. For me, it wouldn't matter what you did. And I think what you do now is great, but for me, I don't care about that. That doesn't change how I view you as a person. To me, that's not important.

• 46:07Esther Perel?

  Clear answer.

• 46:10Esther Perel?

  I actually think that this is a question that is less from him to her and more from him to the child inside of him. And what I'm hearing now is that it alludes to how many kids idealize what their parents do to make their absence often more tolerable. Doing important things, saving humanity, being a fireman in the night. If you do something truly big and I can idealize it, then I somehow can accept your absence better.

• 46:55Esther Perel?

  And he's asking it to her, but she's not the child. So she says, I like you as the way you are. I like you just the way you are. So this is another moment where I think bringing in the history of his family of origin would have probably helped us understand this a little bit better.

• 47:19Speaker 06

  It's kind of the opposite. I was hoping it would be a benefit, so I could justify doing it.

• 47:25Esther Perel?

  Sneaky.

• 47:26Speaker 06

  That was, that was my thought, but yeah.

• 47:30Esther Perel?

  So that thought.

• 47:31Speaker 06

  For me.

• 47:32Esther Perel?

  That's very interesting. If you had said that the draw is in what I do, I could have used it for the rest of our life together to justify. And back then with that woman in two thousand twenty five, you told me

• 47:48Esther Perel?

  how much you found in what I do so inspiring. So don't come now and tell me that it produces hardships on you.

• 48:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:03Speaker 06

  Well, that leads me to another question, which I hope is not as malicious as that one. Sneaky is that one.

• 48:10Esther Perel?

  Sneaky is a good word.

• 48:12Speaker 06

  Yeah. Do you feel like what I do at home supports what you do? Being the main provider and like, am I providing you

• 48:27Speaker 06

  support and trying to take care of stuff?

• 48:32Speaker 06

  Does it allow you to do your profession better as well? Does it feel reciprocal to you? Or does it feel like a one-way street?

• 48:41Speaker 07

  I've already said that it does. I said on multiple occasions that you are the primary person that's responsible for our day-to-day. And that's why when I'm alone by myself for these weeks on end, it's extremely challenging. Because then I'm not just doing my job, but I'm also doing your job when it comes to the home stuff. And I already have a very demanding work.

• 49:14Speaker 07

  And so I know that it's very helpful for me when I leave the house at six thirty in the morning and not home till seven o'clock at night, that I don't have to think about feeding the pets and sometimes doing the dishes and sometimes making dinner because you're home and you're able to.

• 49:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, thanks for saying that. It feels nice.

• 49:43Esther Perel?

  In some way, he actually holds a lot of things that he's in charge of. And when he's gone, you know, it's one of these things where you say one person is doing the job for a bunch.

• 49:58Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:59Esther Perel?

  And so when he's gone, it's the bunch that is missing.

• 50:02Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm, totally.

• 50:05Esther Perel?

  And if you're gonna have kids,

• 50:09Esther Perel?

  this has to shift. Somebody's gonna have to make adaptations, meaning both of you. Eight pets and one or two kids and two full careers with very little support around you is gonna crush you.

• 50:26Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:28Esther Perel?

  I mean, it's totally fine, but you're gonna have to start to be more creative. Who may need to adjust for a period? Who gets priorities for two, three years and then the other person gets priorities? How do we make this flexible?

• 50:43Speaker 07

  I think that's why I'm so hesitant in all of this because I feel like

• 50:52Speaker 07

  there has never been a compromise in these conversations. It's just been a, well, she's sacrificing to do this career so that I can do my PhD and I can travel and I want a family.

• 51:09Esther Perel?

  But he wants the rest to stay put as it is.

• 51:12Speaker 07

  And that's what I struggle with because I just see, once again, the only option being that I sacrifice my career again.

• 51:22Esther Perel?

  So that is a concrete thing that needs to change and that is totally doable. But it will require you not to think just what do I need, but more what does the family need?

• 51:38Esther Perel?

  Not just to survive, but to thrive.

• 51:45Esther Perel?

  One theme of this session was about how can we have a conversation about having a child that she's not avoiding, shutting down, and that puts us in a place where we can't talk about this. But the second subject was, this is a couple that is going through developmental transitions. When they were students together, they shared a reality on a daily basis. And choices that we make, because we are students, or because we are just the two of us, demand different answers than choices that we make when we try to expand and to become a family. These are developmental questions, and there is nothing inherently problematic about it.

• 52:32Esther Perel?

  At the last moment, as we were talking about all these conversations that they wanted to have, the subject of sexuality came up. And we ended up having, in fact, a whole other session about that. And so I invite you to listen to that session, whether you are a subscriber on Substack or in Apple Podcasts.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you, based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 54:00Speaker 08

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.