Episode 443: Colleen Pelly: The Secret Quality That Makes You More Hireable Than Technical Skills

Ever wonder what really makes someone stand out in today's competitive job market? In this Habits and Hustle podcast episode, I am joined by Colleen Pelly, CEO and founder of Linchpin, to discuss the traits that make candidates truly hireable beyond just technical skills. We dive into why self-awareness and emotional intelligence matter more than talent alone in the hiring process. We also explore the changing workplace landscape post-COVID, why flexibility has become non-negotiable for many workers, and which overlooked career paths offer surprising financial rewards without requiring extensive education. Colleen Pelly is the founder and CEO of Linchpin, a purpose-driven recruitment agency that helps match companies and talent across multiple industries. With experience spanning retail, tech, automotive, and cannabis sectors, she has held key recruitment roles at major brands including Tesla and lululemon, where she developed expertise in full-cycle recruitment from entry-level to executive positions. What We Discuss: (01:00) The Importance of Self-Awareness in Hiring (10:39) Building Corporate Culture Through Hiring (16:09) Navigating the Recruitment Industry (24:10) Essential Skills for Recruiters and Entrepreneurs (31:36) The Impact of Flexibility on Employment (43:31) Navigating Generational Changes in Hiring (55:05) Discover Linchpin Co on Social Media …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: Therasage: Head over to therasage.com http://therasage.com/ and use code Be Bold for 15% off TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com http://truniagen.com/ and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www http://www/.magicmind.com http://magicmind.com//jen and use code Jen at checkout. Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com http://airdoctorpro.com/ and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Bio.me: Link to daily prebiotic fiber here https://bio.me/?utm_source=Jennifer, code Jennifer20 for 20% off. Momentous: Shop this link https://www.livemomentous.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorDUIZz3psr1Qsq_n1yE8_6JTq_QUFabOO9lH65HDEXCIoJOPLj and use code Jen for 20% off Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Colleen Pelly: Website: https://www.thelinchpinco.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelinchpinco

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, this is Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:08Jen Cohen?

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• 0:50Jen Cohen?

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• 1:33Jen Cohen?

  Hi guys, welcome to Habits and Hustle. Today, we have a very special guest, because I thought, given where we are in the world and how everything right now is tweaking and changing, of course, with the new president coming in, I think a big thing that's in everybody's mind is inflation, the economy, how does like employment, how does all this impact jobs, basically, right? And how to... You know, be hirable, you know, like, so I thought today we're gonna, I thought today would be a great time to have Colleen Pelle on, who is the CEO, founder of a company called Lynchpin, which is basically a recruitment agency.

• 2:13Jen Cohen?

  She, you, you help people find jobs, you find companies, you know, get employees from all levels, right? From entry all the way up to C level.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:24Jen Cohen?

  Right? So who better to ask than you?

• 2:27Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:27Jen Cohen?

  Right? So thank you for coming on the show.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

• 2:31Jen Cohen?

  I'm really excited to talk to you and have this conversation because I think now more than ever, it's in the zeitgeist

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38Jen Cohen?

  of what's happening. I guess my first question for you is, I guess, when you're hiring, when, what is the, what is the number one trait that makes somebody hirable?

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Oh, great question.

• 2:53Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  And it feels so simple, but I think when you think about self-awareness, or like a high emotional intelligence or a high ability to be self-aware, for me feels like one of the most important parts. And I think a lot of it is, we talk about a lot of interviews, sometimes talk about like what went wrong, or like what's an error you made or a mistake you made, and being able to be self-aware and hold yourself accountable to what went wrong.

• 3:16Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  And also talk about like, what'd you learn and how do we move forward is like, that's a beautiful skill to have. And just being able to articulate what you've done well and metrics and data. So I think there's like a self-awareness piece, what I would say is, is a really important and really useful part to have.

• 3:32Jen Cohen?

  So it's funny, because I think that self-awareness is key for all walks, for all walks of life, right? And it's not so common, right?

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 3:40Jen Cohen?

  Like, it's, it's, it's something that we, I guess, some of us, I do, do you feel, in your opinion, is it, is it something that someone can work on, or is it something that's more innate?

• 3:51Speaker 02

  I think like anything, you can work on it, but I definitely think it's something that you have or you don't in a strong way. Like I think some people think they're self-aware and have no idea what's going on.

• 3:59Jen Cohen?

  Like I, yeah, right. Exactly. I think that's very common. What I also find interesting that in all my dealings in life and business,

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:07Jen Cohen?

  that I feel that talent is very overrated.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 4:11Jen Cohen?

  And talent definitely gets you through the door. But if you don't have these other micro skills, like you said, like self-awareness,

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:19Jen Cohen?

  or a higher EQ, or reading the room, or all these other things, work ethic, it really does dampen the importance of talent.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:30Jen Cohen?

  Do you agree?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. And I think if you take that into what hiring looks like or the recruitment process, we focus so much on a technical requirement for roles. So you're like, you're hiring a software engineer, like what's their coding experience?

• 4:42Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  But if you're ignoring, I love how to read a room. That's like one of my favorite ones. If you're ignoring that and you're ignoring your ability to regulate emotion and have clear conversations and give and receive feedback, they're not going to be successful in the role, regardless if they can do the technical skill or not.

• 4:56Jen Cohen?

  I mean, listen, I, I, I think I, I should tell you, I don't know if, I don't know if you know this, you probably don't, but many, many years ago, yeah, many, like, like 25 years ago.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:06Jen Cohen?

  When I was in between jobs and career.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:10Jen Cohen?

  I got a job at a recruitment agency.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Amazing. I did not know that.

• 5:13Jen Cohen?

  No, I didn't think you would know this.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:15Jen Cohen?

  And what I found was I was working on, I got hired to like help with like technology people, like people to do like, it was like graphic design.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:25Jen Cohen?

  It was like coding, it was computer talent.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah.

• 5:27Jen Cohen?

  And, and what I've found, even with my own like very minimal experience, the people who got the job or I recommended were the people that were the most likeable, that I just liked to be around.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:42Jen Cohen?

  And like, it is my opinion in general, I think that likability is a way bigger indicator of someone's success and overall hireability than any talent that you can ever have.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's tricky because there's, there's a bias that can come into play where we like, we want to hire people like us.

• 5:58Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  So if you're vibing with someone when you're interviewing them. It's so easy to be like, this is amazing. I could absolutely hang out with this person.

• 6:04Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  But it's less about like the likability or it's not like, like I think a few years ago, like Google, it would be like, oh, can I have a beer with this person? And it's like, it's not that, because you may not necessarily like them as a friend, but do I like their energy and their vibe? And their ability to like, hold a conversation with me and can I see myself partnering?

• 6:21Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  So likability in that way, 100%. And I think part of that too is like, if you're a clear communicator, um, that likability comes through. So like, if you're like, I, I've talked about this before, but I think it's like, if there's two people who are the exact same and they have the exact same experience and they bring the exact same energy, but somebody is a better communicator, or they have like a higher sense of urgency in the way they communicate, I'm going to pick them every time. Because they're going to perform better for you.

• 6:45Jen Cohen?

  Well, that's another one, like a sense of urgency.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  What probably my most, I mean, I think I have actually do it to a fault. Like I'm so quick in the way I communicate. I almost think I have expectations of everyone. And I'm like, what do you mean? You haven't responded in seven minutes.

• 6:58Jen Cohen?

  I'm the same way and people think I'm.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  It's so unhealthy, but yeah, yeah.

• 7:02Jen Cohen?

  It's so unhealthy, but like.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  But I think that's why people like working with us.

• 7:06Jen Cohen?

  Right. I think, I think that there's like certain things that override just actual, like you said, technical ability.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:13Jen Cohen?

  Right? Now, do you feel like, would you, would you specialize? Do you have any specialties at Lynchpin?

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, great question. And so I think this is probably one of the most commonly asked questions. And any business coach will tell me, you should have like a very specific niche. So there's a lot of recruiters who are like just tech recruiters, or just marketing, or just construction. And I've gone so far out of my way to not do that. So I like to focus on purpose-led companies and purpose-driven people. That's our recruitment with purpose is our tagline. And I've curated my team. So I do still have a pipeline in tech and in sales and in legal and in finance. But we are so concerned, I guess is the right word, with who the clients we're working with are. Do the way they treat their people and the way they operate their company align with who we are? Because if you can find your way to like feel on the same page or on the same path of that, the recruitment process is so much more authentic. But it's my biggest roadblock.

• 8:03Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Because a lot of people, people who don't know anything about recruiting, I would say in transparency, will come back and think, you know what? I'm gonna go with Jen's company because she's done tech, only tech recruiting for 15 years. But it's like, no, really, if you look at my background, I've got retail, I've got tech, I've got cannabis, I've got automotive. And great recruitment is about understanding the need and honestly caring about candidate and client experience, and you can hire for anyone. And so my biggest roadblock is getting through, letting people give me a chance to show you what it can actually look like.

• 8:34Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Because it's so easy to say, oh, well, they've done exactly my type of recruiting for this many years, but that doesn't mean that they're gonna give you the same experience.

• 8:41Jen Cohen?

  Right. Well, it's like also transferable skills, right? If you can do it in one area, you can do it in another area.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 8:48Jen Cohen?

  It doesn't matter, right? Like, if you can sell a widget, you can sell a widget, you know, a widget in cars, you can sell a widget for a sofa, or whatever it is.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 8:57Jen Cohen?

  Because it's like the foundational skills of knowing of like what you're doing.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  And I would say you could actually take that into the hiring process too, because I think if we talk about sort of like more traditional recruitment methods, I think there's a way, a lot of people are so stuck on, I need them to have experience in this industry, or they need to have done this, but it's like, no, let's break down the fundamental skills for the role. And if they did this in automotive, they can also do it in tech.

• 9:21Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  If it's the same skill set, like a project manager can manage any like different types of projects.

• 9:26Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  And I think the clients we love working with understand that, and it's our job, I guess, to sell the transferable skill set too. But I think people get really stuck on like titles and industry, and it's like, no, like, we need to focus a little bit more, and like, can they do the job properly regardless if they've done it in the exact same way before?

• 9:42Jen Cohen?

  Well, also, the companies that do really well and thrive all are, all have a very streamlined feel to it. Like Lululemon's a great example, and I know you used to work with Lululemon.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was my, my start into recruitment.

• 9:54Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:55Jen Cohen?

  I knew you worked with them, I wasn't sure if it was the beginning or like middle, but what they, what they did very early on, and I think they were the first ones that I recognized was doing really well, was building a culture.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:08Jen Cohen?

  And the culture was very, very strong, and everybody like that they hired, they They all fit that culture.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  And like bought into it.

• 10:16Jen Cohen?

  And yes, exactly.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  And I think like it was almost.

• 10:20Jen Cohen?

  What was that called? What, what? Did you guys have a mandate? Like when they, who, A, when they hired, when they hired you to hire their employees?

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:29Jen Cohen?

  Did they give you kind of like a mission statement to work with or?

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, a little bit. I think like there's definitely like a manifesto or that way, but I feel like a lot of it was sort of, how do you want to operate in the world? And like at the time it was like, yeah, do you like to move your body? Like, you know,

• 10:43Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Is mindfulness a part of your, your everyday, that kind of thing? But the whole, from a recruitment perspective, when a company does that really well, man, my job was easy.

• 10:52Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Cause everyone wanted to work there.

• 10:54Jen Cohen?

  Right. And did everybody? I mean, yeah, I, that was like the big.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  At the time, yeah.

• 10:58Jen Cohen?

  At the, but everybody's personality fit a very specific, I, I felt like a very specific kind of collective rule, like not rules is the wrong word, but like, everyone kind of was cut from the same cloth.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think I, I probably didn't fit into a certain extent because I'd never done yoga before and it was a yoga company. So, but I remember that made me stand out, but I think.

• 11:19Jen Cohen?

  But it wasn't a yoga company. It was actually an apparel company.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:22Jen Cohen?

  It was a clothing company. They were selling the most expensive pair of pants on the planet, yoga pants, right? And they really.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  It's still so crazy to think about.

• 11:30Jen Cohen?

  Oh, it's still, and by the way, yeah. And now, but now they were the first of its kind.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:34Jen Cohen?

  Now there's a million of them, right?

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there's so many, but I, yeah, I think.

• 11:37Jen Cohen?

  They're the pioneer.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  The collective mindset, I guess, as best we could be like goal setting and always wanting to better yourself. So there's like a personal development piece that I feel like everyone we hired sort of had in common. And it was sort of like never settling for less. And there's always more you can do. And there's always, there's a continuous learning piece and there's just like a hunger to be better.

• 11:54Jen Cohen?

  A hunger.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  It was part of the consistency.

• 11:56Jen Cohen?

  I also found everyone very friendly when they walked in.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:59Jen Cohen?

  And everybody, not just friendly, but like overly like happy.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So at the store level, that's where I start. I started in the stores as a sales associate and they were called educators and the front people at the time, this was years ago, but they were called DOFI, which is Director of First Impressions. And you had to greet someone within six seconds of them coming in. And so like you can't, if you're coming in the door, I can't let you get past me essentially without like, "Good morning" or "Welcome", like, "Thanks so much." So there's definitely a peppy energy. You're not, you're not wrong about that.

• 12:30Jen Cohen?

  Right? But like, but like it works, right?

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Yep, yeah.

• 12:34Jen Cohen?

  Because I'm now talking about it like years later because they obviously set a standard that they would hire for.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:41Jen Cohen?

  And I guess when everyone starts that job, they get like some kind of manifesto.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  There's training too. Yeah. Like, and I think there's, so the stores sort of broken down into different sections and yeah, but it was, it never felt, I think, I mean, I was young, like it was one of my first jobs. And I think like one of the things that always landed for me was it never felt like work because every, maybe because everyone was like-minded in a certain, but like I loved everyone. Like a lot of them are still close friends of mine today and we had so much fun.

• 13:07Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Like it was such, I would recommend any young person to like work in the stores if that's like the type of retail job.

• 13:14Jen Cohen?

  It looked like it was fun.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, really fun.

• 13:16Jen Cohen?

  And then, so were you, so you weren't really involved in like built, like building out the brand culture at that level, at that point?

• 13:23Speaker 02

  And the hiring kind of came into play with like seasonal, like holiday hiring. So it was like when you're on store leadership and then you're sort of voluntold, you have to hire your team.

• 13:31Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  You have to hire the seasonal employees and that's how recruiting started. I sort of like fell into it in that way.

• 13:35Jen Cohen?

  Can you give me another example of a really strong corporate culture that you were a part of, that you helped kind of, I guess, really execute on?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think the most like fundamental, like building blocks example I can think of was Tesla. So they brought me in. I was the first Canadian recruitment or hiring TA employee. So they brought me in to sort of build the recruitment function and I had this opportunity to take this very successful brand in the States at the time. And what does that look like for Canada? And how do we, how do we create the same sort of function and culture, but like make it unique to who we are and the way we operate? So that was a unique experience because the brand was so well-known. It was similar actually to Lululemon at the time where a lot of people wanted to work there. So it's not that finding people was challenging, but nothing was in place. So I got this opportunity to kind of create structure and process and the high level overview of what things could look like for this company as it grew in Canada.

• 14:29Jen Cohen?

  And what was like, what kind of mandate were you given? Like, what were they looking for?

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, their whole thing when you get hired was it's harder to get a job here than it is to get into Harvard. That was, that's their whole sentence. And I don't know that the interview process felt like that. I don't know. I didn't go to Harvard. So I can't imagine that. But it was a, I would say it was a fairly standard interview process. But the way they want you to feel and what they tried really hard to execute in their onboarding is like, congratulations, you're here. You're in this room and not a lot of people get to be in this room. So that was sort of like the vibe and it felt really good at the time. And then, you know, I learned a lot in that role and I was, I was a part of a mass layoff. So I spent years building this function and then they ended up like essentially axing it and putting everything back in California.

• 15:15Jen Cohen?

  Wow. How many people did you hire for them?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Thousands.

• 15:19Jen Cohen?

  And from what level to what level?

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this was like everything from service people at like the car level, like detailers, like all the way up to like executives.

• 15:26Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  So that was a wild journey. And I think, I mean, when you, you notice flags once you're out of a situation too, right? Like when you leave. And so it was such an incredible learning opportunity. But then while I was there, there were so many layoffs. And so it's like, I almost should have seen it coming.

• 15:39Jen Cohen?

  Right. So they would hire and also-

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Project based hiring, essentially. So like this car, this model is releasing. We need to hire 5,000 people to get this done.

• 15:48Jen Cohen?

  Was Elon involved in that? Like in terms of like building out the mission statement, the manifesto, what people should be-

• 15:54Speaker 02

  He spoke at, um, oh my gosh, the word, talent, like town halls.

• 15:57Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Like a sort of-

• 15:58Jen Cohen?

  For Tesla.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I was always in Fremont. That's where I had to go. And like, yeah, you'd go on, he'd be on stage and he'd be trying to motivate everybody. But I never really was involved, like anyone I was building like culture or strategy with would have been just like on the HR side. He wasn't, I don't, I didn't see him involved.

• 16:14Jen Cohen?

  Right. But people, everyone there, like, like they wanted you, wanted the people to feel like lucky to have had the job.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  That's probably the best way I would describe it. It was sort of like congratula-, oh my gosh, you made it into this room. And I did feel that way because it worked. Like it felt great. I was like, a lot of people wanted this job and I got to have this job. That's incredible. And-

• 16:32Jen Cohen?

  Oh, but I mean, for the people that you're hiring, did they all come from Ivy Leagues? Did they all come from-

• 16:36Speaker 02

  No, I think not necessarily. Yes, some people, but no, there was no sort of theme in that way, no expectation.

• 16:43Jen Cohen?

  No expectation.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  In that way, but just like the, the vibe to the people we were bringing. It was like, congratulations. Like you made it.

• 16:49Jen Cohen?

  Now, are people able, like, if I were somebody who was looking for a job, right? Unemployed, would I be able to, how do, like, would I be able to call a recruitment agency? Like, how do you find your candidates?

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, great question. So, this is a super misconception too. So, the way agencies work, well, you were in one, so, but for everyone else.

• 17:10Jen Cohen?

  Oh, my god, a hundred years ago.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  So, clients hire us. So, like, Lou Lemon would hire me to hire for their people. So, the candidates aren't paying anything. That's right. So, like, the candidates work with, like, we're given a role, and then we're like, great, we need to find candidates. But you can still reach out, because you're still building my pipeline and helping, so.

• 17:25Jen Cohen?

  Right. How do you find your people? Do you poach from other companies? Do you go on LinkedIn? Like, how do you find people that you could even interview for these job opportunities?

• 17:33Speaker 02

  LinkedIn's definitely a big one. There's, like, alumni job boards, like, you know, or, like, if you're in design, you're looking on Behance. Like, you're kind of picking specific job boards for the type of industry you're hiring in. But honestly, LinkedIn is a ton of it. And then, just like, who you've, the secret sauce to recruitment is just keeping in touch with people. So, like, really just networks. Like, I think the strongest recruiters just have, like, years and years of these strong networks. And so, a lot of the time, we'll get a new role, I don't know, we get accountants a lot. So, like, we need another accountant, and it's like, oh, great, I can think of 15 people to reach out to before I even have to go on LinkedIn. But if you're thinking about platforms, I'd say LinkedIn's our, like, our most used.

• 18:07Jen Cohen?

  So, like, if someone's looking for, so you've had to just keep, like, a Rolodex or, like, a database of people that you've known over the years?

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:15Jen Cohen?

  That kind of, kind of, kind of left an impression?

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, or, and even, um.

• 18:20Jen Cohen?

  Or that you've placed somewhere else?

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Or replaced, yeah, because you keep in contact with someone, then, you know, in six years, they may want a new job, whatever that looks like, or two, more recently. But we also have, uh, sort of, open forums. Like, a lot of people will reach out, as you said, like, and be like, I need help. It's like, great, here's a link, can you fill this out? And it has, like, what's your name, what's your contact information, what type of job are you looking for? Do you want to be remote? Where do you live? What's your compensation expectation? Can you list some metrics on, like, why you've been successful, et cetera? And then, we're also, like, do you want to be anonymous, whatever it looks like? And then, I've sort of have a pipeline from that. And when I have a new role, I can run it through that and see, like, who matches. So, it's, it's really selfishly, it really builds my pipeline quickly, so I can hire people faster for companies.

• 19:01Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Uh, but also, we get to, we get to help people too, which is nice.

• 19:04Jen Cohen?

  So, what's the percentage that you actually go after, like, poach through other people? Like, you call people who have jobs already?

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:11Jen Cohen?

  Versus people who are, who don't have a job?

• 19:14Speaker 02

  I would say more often than not, they are employed.

• 19:16Jen Cohen?

  They are employed. Cause it's my, one of my big theories in life.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 19:20Jen Cohen?

  It's always easier to get a job when you have a job.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  I a hundred percent.

• 19:23Jen Cohen?

  It's easier to find a boy or a boyfriend or a girlfriend when you have a relationship. But it's like, it's like, it's like the law of like Murphy's law, right? Like when you're, when you're, when you have it, it's avail, all these, all these opportunities are available.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:36Jen Cohen?

  When you have nothing, nothing, like it's basically crickets.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Part of it.

• 19:40Jen Cohen?

  Why?

• 19:40Speaker 02

  I think when you are reasonably happy, people, if they're willing to take a call with me, they're not perfectly happy in their role.

• 19:48Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  And or sometimes they're just networking, but.

• 19:50Jen Cohen?

  Or they're curious.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's part of it, but there is something like if you don't need it, you don't care, I guess, in the same way. And you're so much more confident in the way you communicate and you interview better.

• 20:00Jen Cohen?

  So exactly.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  So I really believe that for sure.

• 20:03Jen Cohen?

  I think, I think with life, right?

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:04Jen Cohen?

  When you, when you're like, when you're not desperate.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  You just don't care and I mean, not, not.

• 20:08Jen Cohen?

  No, it's desperate.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Desperate's the right way. Yeah, that's a good word.

• 20:10Jen Cohen?

  When you're not desperate for a job or a relationship or a date or whatever, you know, a house, whatever it is. The opera, like the, you, you handle yourself differently, right? Like the best version of you is actually presented, number one. And like that kind of like laissez faire attitude is way more attractive.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 20:32Jen Cohen?

  Than this like, you know, this like hint of desperation.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Well, you can hear it some, and people, like obviously there's so many layoffs in the world and all these things. But like if people get to the point where they're like, I don't even care, I'll take a pay cut. And it's like, just know your worth and have confidence and you'll come across.

• 20:44Jen Cohen?

  It's hard to say that though, when someone needs money though, right? But like.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 20:47Jen Cohen?

  A hundred percent.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:48Jen Cohen?

  Then they always say like the best are always taken. So you have to go like, when I build, when I, when I build out brands and companies and stuff like that, cause I do a lot of stuff with lots of different companies. Especially in the tech space, I find all the good tech people are actually taken. It's really, really hard to find like super good people who can like build apps and like people like that. There's like cer, there are certain things.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:11Jen Cohen?

  That require people act, I'm going to change what I said earlier. I would say 95% of jobs, it comes down to, you know, the EQ and the, and the likability and the work ethic. But there are. Are those jobs that you just need hardcore ability?

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:27Jen Cohen?

  Talent like accountants are one of these.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:29Jen Cohen?

  Tech in terms of building an app, very important.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  The thing is, when you were super niche, like especially on the tech side.

• 21:36Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  They're reached out to all the time.

• 21:38Jen Cohen?

  Totally.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  So even on LinkedIn, you'll see it'll literally be like, stop emailing me. Like, it's like.

• 21:43Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  And so I think in general recruiters kind of, they have a bad feeling about us a lot of the time.

• 21:49Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  I was in tech recruiting for a while and you just keep in touch with people. And for me, I find the best way to like, present an opportunity to someone is just be super transparent. So those people, and I'm super quick. I'm like, here's the company. Here's the job posting. Here's the pay. It's remote. If this has any interest to you, let me know or refer me. Otherwise, just like tell me to go away.

• 22:07Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  And most people will be like, not, not right now. Thanks. Thanks, Colleen. Like, no. Or like, here's a friend who's looking. And you can just keep it short and sweet, but like, so many recruiters reach out with very vague information, like, hey, I have this really exciting opportunity. And it's like, just tell me the company and tell me the pay. And if I'm interested, I'll let you know.

• 22:23Jen Cohen?

  That's exactly.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  I've never understood recruiters who are direct. It makes no sense to me.

• 22:27Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, like short and sweet.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:28Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. So can you tell me some of the industries that are a good idea for people to kind of look into that are, that are good, good places for people to maybe be able to find a good paying job?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think there's, I mean, just we've been talking about tech. Tech pays really well at all levels.

• 22:47Jen Cohen?

  Give me some jobs that people maybe haven't thought of, or people who are maybe in college or, you know, this is what I, I guess, let me just kind of like, what I'm thinking is like, people are thinking of the same five jobs, you know, when they come in like, am I going to be a lawyer? Am I going to be a doctor? Am I going to be an accountant? Am I going to be an influencer? That's a big one now. Youtuber.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:05Jen Cohen?

  These are all the things that people are actually doing. But there's a whole variety and array of jobs out there and careers, I should call it, not just jobs, that people don't know about because they just don't know what they don't know.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:18Jen Cohen?

  So the way I want to frame this question is different. I want you to tell us some careers or career paths or industries or areas that would be very lucrative for people to maybe explore.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think just starting.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  From the world I know really well is I think recruiting is such an interesting space because you don't need a formal education. If you have one, that's great, but you don't need it, right? Like recruiting, there's no designation.

• 23:44Jen Cohen?

  You mean to be a recruiter?

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no designation you need. And, you know, I have people in my life who like have all these letters after their name and they went to school for 15 years and it's like, I make significantly more. Like I mean that in a, it's coming across as not humble, but also apologies.

• 23:59Jen Cohen?

  Don't be humble on this show. I want you to tell us the truth.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's like I, especially in agency recruitment, because a lot of it's commission based. So if you're confident and you're great at what you do and it's uncapped commission, you're just going to keep earning. But the other side, like this is like a less conventional path, but I feel like so many trades roles are ignored, like being an electrician or a plumber or those spaces, they're making a significant amount of money and you're able to get educated or the requirements you need in a much faster timeframe. And so I think that's something that's kind of ignored and also needed. So we work with influencers all the time. We hire for them all the time. At some point, that's not going to be a job anymore. And you know, it's always going to be needed is those like essential, it's like what's essential that's going to be needed all the time?

• 24:37Jen Cohen?

  Can I tell you, okay, I want to like, you said a couple of things that I want to just touch on, it's really interesting. I have a very good friend living in Canada, in Toronto. She, we, her and I were really close when I was living in Canada, many years ago. She was a recruiter, an executive search recruiter. Is that the same thing?

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, some people just do executive search. Like we do everything from entry level through executive.

• 24:59Jen Cohen?

  She did, she was, she did with either one, the executive search. Actually, no, she was a recruiter because she did only techno tech staff.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:07Jen Cohen?

  She was making so much money.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:09Jen Cohen?

  It was absurd, like it would, it was shocking how much money that she was making as a recruiter because of the commission staff.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Like, yeah.

• 25:17Jen Cohen?

  You could make so much money if you're good.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:19Jen Cohen?

  That's the first thing I was going to say. So really what you need to be is tenacious because you have to be able to call people, also remember people.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  It's the, remembering is so key. Like I always say this to people, like everyone's like, how are you good at your job? Like, what does it mean to be successful in recruitment? It's really just keeping in touch with people and remembering details.

• 25:35Jen Cohen?

  But that's a skill in itself.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 25:37Jen Cohen?

  To keep in touch, to be able to follow up, to maintain a relationship. These are like fundamental, these are. Like to me, these are life skills. That like make the biggest difference, right? And so, and also be good at sales, right? You're gonna sell yourself, you're gonna sell the company, the opportunity. This is to me, a massive area for people who are listening and they don't know what to potentially maybe look into for a job. Being a recruiter is a great option, I think. And also, if you're placing jobs that are like a hundred thousand plus, you're making a major commission off of that. Like, what's the commissions you guys make?

• 26:13Speaker 02

  So, as a company, like from a business, we charge twenty percent of the base salary and then your recruiters will get anywhere from like ten to fifteen percent.

• 26:20Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, that's great money. The other thing I find very interesting is what you're saying, to your point, plumbers, electricians. Do you know that how impossible it is to find a plumber? We need, I needed a plumber for my house. We were waiting, huh, three weeks, a month maybe, because they're so in demand. And, and these plumbers are making a lot of money.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially in the, in the emergency space as well, because at that time, you're like, I'll pay whatever. Please, yeah.

• 26:47Jen Cohen?

  But like, there are, I think plumbers now, there are plumbers, and I think this is pretty much like all, universal now, like everywhere. Are making more money than doctors.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Right. And so I think there's, that's probably just an underrated. I mean, when you talk about recruiters, I feel like it's, no one wakes up and is like, I'm gonna be a recruiter when I grow up, so that's probably. But I, I think you're right, there's sort of like, my parents want me to be a doctor, or a lawyer, or a teacher, or whatever it is, and I think there's like some like underrated pieces that are missing.

• 27:13Jen Cohen?

  By the way, teachers make no money.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  And they should make more than all of us.

• 27:16Jen Cohen?

  That's, by the way, one of these jobs, or I should say careers, that's like, that, they, they pay them nothing and they deserve so much more.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  My kids are younger, like they're not in school yet, and I just even think about the daycare people. I'll leave, I'll drop my kids off sometimes and everyone's crying and I'm like, you're not paid enough.

• 27:33Jen Cohen?

  Uh, they're not paid enough.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  I, I don't know how, I go crazy with two of them.

• 27:37Jen Cohen?

  Oh, me too.

• 27:41Jen Cohen?

  There are some people who are just like really, like they have a lot of patience. If you're somebody who has a lot of patience and just loves kids, it's a great job. Me, I would strangle every child in there, including myself. I'd be the worst person that we're gonna date. Care, but I do find that interesting. So there's in that trades world, you're talking electricians, you're talking plumbers, carpenters.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think like even maybe less, we did some landscape hiring for a while. And so like, maybe not like direct like laborers, but like that can grow into sort of like a more niche trade. But I just think in general, people overlook those essential pieces for things that are needed. Yeah, I don't know. And I, I, I think there's a, there are key industries, like if you're thinking more on the corporate side, like anything with a commission. So like recruitment is the same way because it's sales, but anything in sales where you have the ability, if you're great at what you do, you're going to do well. Not everyone's going to do well in these industries because the base salary is not a lot. You need the commission.

• 28:33Jen Cohen?

  You also have to be a self-starter.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:35Jen Cohen?

  And

• 28:35Speaker 02

  You're hungry. Yeah.

• 28:36Jen Cohen?

  Hungry.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:37Jen Cohen?

  But also like entrepreneurial because it is your business that you're growing.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:40Jen Cohen?

  And it may be working within another business or just on your own. Like this is to me, it's like being an entrepreneur, right? Like these, some, everyone thinks it's sexy. Oh, I'm on a, like, it's become a very like hashtag worthy, you know, word, like I'm an entrepreneur.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 28:55Jen Cohen?

  Do you know how hard it is to be?

• 28:56Speaker 02

  I think about this all the time. Like when I first started my company and everyone's like, oh, my gosh, you're doing it. And you're like, do you know how hard this is? I'm crying in the shower and trying to figure out what to do every day.

• 29:05Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  And you find your groove, but it's like you go from being, so if I'm an expert in recruitment and then I start a company, all of a sudden I have to be an expert in finance and tech and marketing and you're not, and you're learning and you're making so many mistakes. But if you're, it's not for everyone, but if you have the mentality, like an entrepreneurial spirit or whatever you want to call it, I think really the word is resilience. If you can be a resilient person, you can make it happen. But I don't remember the stat, but it's something like wildly high that the number of people who try to start a business and fail.

• 29:30Jen Cohen?

  They do.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:31Jen Cohen?

  But you have to, you have to have the, the thick skin, the stomach for it. I also, you know, I don't know if you know this either, but I did this, my whole brand is around being bold, right?

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:41Jen Cohen?

  Okay. And I did this TED Talk on being bold is actually more important than being intelligent and all these things. And this whole idea was behind this, the 10% target, which is this idea that you make 10 attempts at whatever you want most.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  And Ooh, okay.

• 29:56Jen Cohen?

  Right? And so the idea behind it is that one of two things happen. Either you get the opportunity that you go after.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:04Jen Cohen?

  Or another thing will present itself that you never even knew existed by just going through the process.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 30:10Jen Cohen?

  And the, and the, and the, the nice thing is what happens when you do that process is you end up failing and you get comfortable with failing because now you already have like some kind of framework where you're like, okay, I'm making 10 attempts. So now that's what I'm doing. So if I fail at the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, that's okay. And then you actually teach yourself to become immune to failing.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 30:35Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. And so, and I started to talk to all these like big sales companies because like that's really at the end of the day for people to become, or for people to make a shot, or you know, give it a shot, or it's about learning how to be resilient, how to be, how to be okay with failure.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  You're not going to get anywhere if you don't fail.

• 30:53Jen Cohen?

  Not get, first of all, like the majority of people that I know, including myself, I fail 99.9% of the time. You just need to win once.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  But you will win.

• 31:02Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, but it's a numbers game. It's volume. The more you take a shot, the bit, the better your chance is at actually getting that shot, you know?

• 31:11Speaker 02

  And having something work out. I had somebody, like an old mentor, tell me once to look at, to look at like a setback or a failure as feedback.

• 31:18Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, setback is feedback.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  And I, it resonated with me at the time. And it's like, if you can find a way to, okay, this didn't go well, but what can I learn from it? Cause I'm going to do it again.

• 31:29Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:30Jen Cohen?

  I also think it's also like, we can talk about, I, I feel like all this, like people just try to like, oh, setback is, you know, is either feedback or, or setback is a feedback or like, or there's all these like other cliche things.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Similar.

• 31:44Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, like cliches, like, you know, like it's, um, when you're like, when, when you fall, when you get up, it's like redirection and all these things. At the end of the day, it's really simple. It's like, is the more shots you make, the, the better chance you're going to get at a, at a success.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  If you don't ask for it, it's never going to happen.

• 32:02Jen Cohen?

  You don't ask, you don't get. It's like the squeaky wheel gets the oil, right? Like, maybe it's a Canadian thing, you know?

• 32:08Speaker 02

  You know what cliche I truly, like, there's so many that go around, but one that I, we should.

• 32:14Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  But the one I, that always has resonated with me too, which I hate to, it makes you so uncomfortable, but you're not going to grow if you're not uncomfortable. So like growth is gonna, whatever that is, growth happens out of your comfort zone or whatever.

• 32:24Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  It's so, it's so true.

• 32:26Jen Cohen?

  Well, a hundred percent. Like, that's what I was saying earlier. It's like when you are practicing the these ten attempts and you're failing at them, the more you do something, the less uncomfortable it becomes, right? So like me at this point, like I'll do anything. I don't give a shit. Like if it works, it works. If not, it doesn't even like, it's like no, it's like

• 32:44Speaker 02

  But you're confident too, which I think takes, that's a skill.

• 32:47Jen Cohen?

  But but you know what? Confidence comes from being competent. And I feel like I've I've built that muscle of competence because I've tried and practiced and practiced so much that the more you practice, you get better and better. And so now I feel like I'm really competent at failing. So now I was like, okay, that's what that's that's my superpower.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:07Jen Cohen?

  I don't care when I fail. So like if I try to do something or I ask for something and I don't get it, well, okay, well, at least I I feel better about myself that at least I made the shot.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  You tried.

• 33:17Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:18Jen Cohen?

  Like, and I think that rejection is always better than regret. I never, right?

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:23Jen Cohen?

  I never want to look back at something and be like, you know, what, what if?

• 33:27Speaker 02

  I wish I did.

• 33:28Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. Or what if, what if I tried that? Or like, what if that happened? Like on your deathbed, you're not thinking about all the things that you did. You think about all the things you did not do.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:38Jen Cohen?

  You know, like, oh, if I only apologize to this person.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Right. Or spent more time with this or did this.

• 33:43Jen Cohen?

  Yes. So regret, like I find regret to be a really horrible gut gutter gutter, like gutturally bad feeling, if that's a word.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:54Jen Cohen?

  So I'll get rejected all day long. I don't care.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Well, I think anyone who starts a small business knows all about rejection.

• 34:01Jen Cohen?

  Right. So like you're, so like, this is why I like you because you are, you are an entrepreneur because you've started this business. You're a recruiter, which in itself, it's like a double whammy.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  It's a lot of no in your face.

• 34:11Jen Cohen?

  It's a lot of, like, being a recruiter right away, super difficult to start your own business. And then a recruitment business, which is all, all eat what you kill, period, end of story, right?

• 34:21Speaker 02

  And it's a really saturated market.

• 34:23Jen Cohen?

  It's a, is it?

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, like there are, I don't know, I can't remember, but you like, you could throw a stone and hit like 20 different agencies, just within my like area where I live. And I think it's so it's consistently Something is, somebody told me, like a competitor who's a friend of mine told me when I first started my business, there's more than enough work for all of us. You just have to find your lane.

• 34:42Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  And it's so true. Like, you know, I think even a few years ago, I would kind of work with anyone because I wanted a client.

• 34:47Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  And I was like, sure. And then, you know, as I've kind of gained more success, I'm able to be like, I don't actually know that we're right for each other. I don't really like the way you treat your people.

• 34:55Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 34:56Speaker 02

  In a kind way. So it's like, I'm gonna like, find my groove and my people and like, find my space in it. And sort of like, how can we differentiate? Like, if we're not trying to be like everyone else, we don't want to work with everyone. We want to like, be, I don't know, like, you're a kind of the type of clients we want to work with.

• 35:09Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  That's been cool, too.

• 35:10Jen Cohen?

  That's like-minded, like you. Look, and can I ask you another question?

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Always.

• 35:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I find it interesting because also, the workforce has also changed a lot over the last few years.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:22Jen Cohen?

  Especially since COVID. Right? Nobody wants to go into work.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:26Jen Cohen?

  Everybody wants to work remotely. How does that impact?

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:31Jen Cohen?

  Employment?

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Yes. So just on like a, like geographical location, like the, the remote. If I'm given a role and you see it's remote first, it's always going to be easier. You can cast a wider net. Like, you know, you can even, like, if they're in a different time zone even, you can shift hours. But like, being remote allows for the largest candidate pool. A lot of companies have kind of fallen back into a hybrid model. So like, coming into the office a couple of days a week. But when we have companies, like, we have a few clients and they're lovely, but it's sort of like, like demanding five days a week in office. Nobody wants that anymore. And so I think, yes, there's some roles, like nurses, like there's some roles you have to be in person, that kind of thing. But I do feel like, I'm gonna use the word flexibility instead of remote. Like, I think the, this, the most attractive thing companies can offer is flexibility.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  And what I mean by that is not just where you work, but also time. Like, even my own team, I know recruitment's a little bit like, you just need your computer and your, and a phone. But it's sort of like, I don't really care when you work or where you work. I'm gonna know if you're doing your job by the number of people you hire or you don't. And my employees, I feel, one of the things they, you know, we do surveys a lot, like, what do you like about being here? Like, what's working and what's not working? And I think it's like, if you give your team flexibility, they're gonna feel trusted. And people who feel trusted want to do well for you because they want to be around you. So I think- Flexibility in terms of like, yeah, the hours you work or like what you need. Like, maybe I want to pick my kids up every day at three, but then I'm going to do a little work later in the evening because that works for me. Or I'm not going to work at all on Wednesday because I want to go do something, but I'll work a little bit on Sunday.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  So I think there's like, trust your team to get the job done and they will, as opposed to sort of setting rigid regulations. The companies that set those strict rules, I find like, nobody's going to stay.

• 37:07Jen Cohen?

  But do the companies do better when their employees are in office versus hybrid or remote?

• 37:17Speaker 02

  I have found no success, like key indicators that are any different if someone's in an office versus not. Like, I think there are some industries where it's very useful to be at a table. Like, you know, if you're architects or review, like, anything you can do in person, you can do on a computer, really. But, you know, like my husband, for instance, he's a civil engineer and he loves, he's like, I miss the, everyone in the meeting on the, looking at the same piece of paper on the same table. He likes that kind of thing. So hybrid is great for him. But for me, there's no difference. And so I think it's, for all it shows to me, and like, this is just my personal opinion, maybe it's not popular, but I think it just shows that you don't trust your people to get their job done.

• 37:51Jen Cohen?

  I don't know. I think there's something to be said for two things, employee morale.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 37:57Jen Cohen?

  And also just camaraderie, like.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:01Jen Cohen?

  I feel like.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Like from a culture.

• 38:02Jen Cohen?

  From a culture standpoint, because what happens is I find we're living in a more and more disconnected world as, like, just in general.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:11Jen Cohen?

  And now we're putting the onus, like, the, the rules are now on the employees, not the employers. Like, we're having a bend towards people's dis- disinterest or desire to go into an office. And what I feel is happening is people are becoming lazy. And they're, and, and they're not realizing that, like, they're, the work, I mean, you're right. There are some jobs that, yeah, it doesn't require to be back in the office. But it's not even so much about that. It's about creating community.

• 38:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:45Jen Cohen?

  Corporate culture. Corporate culture is very hard to build when everybody is dispersed in their homes.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  And you never see each other. Yeah, like, it's like you hear companies, like, when they host their town halls or their big. Events, people feel that's why I think you're right that why most companies have landed on hybrid because people want both. So they want the ability to like go to an appointment on Wednesday and work from home, but also be able to go into the office on Thursday and see their team. So I think that's probably why most of our clients have landed in that space because the the community field does come back. Kind of depends who you are. So I've been remote since like way before COVID.

• 39:16Jen Cohen?

  But you're to sales job. It's different.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I don't like going into an office, but that's just my personal opinion.

• 39:22Jen Cohen?

  I don't like, I listen, I hate the office. But what I what I feel is then like you don't get a job that's office driven. But I think like, but it's different when you are a salesperson because you like your your bottom line is based what you eat is based on how much you sell.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  That's right. Yeah.

• 39:38Jen Cohen?

  Okay, so then that doesn't there has to be some like malleability.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 39:42Jen Cohen?

  But if it's a marketing job, or if it's a job that's involving PR or whatever it is, I don't I'm just

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Design, yeah.

• 39:48Jen Cohen?

  Design, whatever. Design's a great example. I feel like it's it should, we are giving our we're giving people way too much onus and flexibility at the employee at the employer's expense. Like the like work life balance. Like now people are like calling the shots. I don't want to work later than three. I don't want to work on Friday. I don't want to wear that to work. It's like, you know what, then then don't get a job and you'll go hungry.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  This might not be the right place for you if that that that yeah, I hear you. Like, at what point is it too much?

• 40:18Jen Cohen?

  At what point? Like, I feel like what the pendulum has now swung so far one direction that it's it's becoming a real problem, like where it's it's a different thing like, oh, I the triggers, the safe spot, the safe places.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  Yes, right.

• 40:34Jen Cohen?

  You know, all of this kind of rhetoric.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  It is softer.

• 40:37Jen Cohen?

  It's it's soft and gentle.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:40Jen Cohen?

  Which I feel and from all the research and data I've seen, I've seen people and companies actually plummet, not they don't they're not they're not staying plateau. They're not actually like staying, they're not thriving, let's put it that way.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  I think there's there's definitely a mindfulness. I don't know what the right word is that wasn't there before in a certain way.

• 41:01Jen Cohen?

  I don't think mindfulness is the right word. Wokeness is another word.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm trying to think of the right word.

• 41:04Jen Cohen?

  That's the word I'm thinking.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  But what I will say, I agree and I disagree with you. I think like the piece, you can still set, I need XXXX accomplished by this time. It just, how you get there?

• 41:17Jen Cohen?

  Right, there should be parameters.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think like, you know, if you can't work on Friday because of what your life looks like, but you're still gonna hit your deadline, then I don't really care. So I do, I do think, I kinda think I'm a balance of how you're feeling and how I like.

• 41:28Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, like, I'm not where you are, right?

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:32Jen Cohen?

  I, I feel like I'm not a work, I'm not an office person, so then I, I know better to get a job.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Well, you know, you're gonna do what you, what's gonna work for your lifestyle.

• 41:40Jen Cohen?

  And also, I, whatever money I make is my, is, if I don't make money and I don't work,

• 41:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:45Jen Cohen?

  then I won't make money. And if I, if I do work, then I will make money.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:49Jen Cohen?

  But I'm, my personality is okay with that. A lot of these, a lot of people's personalities are not okay with that.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Right, and it's not like aligning.

• 41:57Jen Cohen?

  It's not aligning, cuz I think a lot of times people wanna be, again, entrepreneur.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:02Jen Cohen?

  They wanna be an entrepreneur, but they don't have the chops.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:06Jen Cohen?

  To actually do that, so they want a company to kind of pay them a salary.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:10Jen Cohen?

  But then they don't wanna like, they don't, they don't wanna acquiesce to what it requires to have a salary job.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  To get this done. Yeah. Yep. No, I totally hear you. I think there's a, I mean, it's like a tricky game a lot of companies are playing right now too, cuz they wanna feel like they're inclusive and, and making sure everyone's feeling safe and everyone's feeling comfortable. But also, there is a bottom line, like, it's not, like, where my brain keeps going to, like, even myself, like, one of my biggest learnings in my company, was like, I've kept to keep people on for far too long.

• 42:39Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Um, because I'm super empathetic, and you know, or I'll do work for them, or I'll end up picking up the slack, and then, at some point, I have to like, put my big curl pants on, and remember I'm trying to run a company, and I think like, that's something as well, like, so, there's this hard thing where you, or one of my learnings, or one of my areas of opportunity is I want people to like me, and I need to like, why?

• 42:58Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  I maybe I'm not for everyone and that's okay, right?

• 43:00Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  What I should be shifting more on is like, I want people to like my work and like my ethic and like my communication. And if they like me or not, it doesn't matter. And that's take, I'm still a work in progress.

• 43:09Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  On that point.

• 43:10Jen Cohen?

  I think we all have a work in progress. But I guess my other question again was kind of like what I was saying is have you seen it more difficult to find or place people because of this new gentle mindful, as you would put it? What was the other word that you used?

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm trying to think of the right.

• 43:27Jen Cohen?

  This, this safe way.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, safe is a good way to put it.

• 43:30Jen Cohen?

  Safe.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  Yes and no. Like, I think the, the Gen Z generation, I guess, like has, they'll just say no. And so like, yes, like the roadblock would be like, okay, that doesn't work for you, then it's not the right opportunity for you. And I'd rather not place you, um, because you're gonna quit.

• 43:45Jen Cohen?

  Anyway, right.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  And like, we're gonna waste time and resources. So I think if we're gonna find a silver lining, because that's my mentality, would be like, it's just opening the door for the right people. So I think like, my job as a recruiter, or my job if we're gonna use sales, is I just need to paint the picture completely transparently. Like, this is what it looks like and it works for you or it doesn't.

• 44:01Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  And I think as a sales tactic in general, you want the person to always feel like it's their decision, right? Like even if I'm guiding the process and I'm guiding the decision process, I want you to always feel like you're the one making the choice. And so it's like, here's exactly what it looks like. If this doesn't work for you, that's okay.

• 44:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Um, and I'm not gonna be offended if this isn't the right opportunity for you. Here's why I think it is, and you can let me know if you want to have a conversation about it. And I will say, there are, like, when I think about the senior C-suite level, not even C-suite, but like just senior director, VP level, to like this younger generation, there is a difference in work ethic in terms of like, what they're willing to do. Like commuting to, COVID really, like when I first started my hiring and, you know, the world was not on fire yet, was 45 minute queue was normal. And now people are like, I'm not leaving my house. Um, so that's definitely been different. So like, if we have a role that's in office and it's like more than 30 minutes, we can't like search, I would say 30 minutes is like the max people are willing to drive.

• 44:55Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's shifted a lot, because it used to be like, you know, in Toronto, people could live outside of the city and they would willingly commute in every day.

• 45:03Jen Cohen?

  I remember.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not a thing anymore.

• 45:05Jen Cohen?

  When I was living in Toronto, when I was at the Raptors at the time.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Oh fun.

• 45:08Jen Cohen?

  I remember people were coming in, taking them in, they took like they were living in all these places that weren't, I can say the names, people won't know, but like Oakville, this is all whatever. It was an

• 45:17Speaker 02

  I know.

• 45:18Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I know, you know, but forty five minutes to an hour and it was like kind of what they, what you did.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  And it was just normal and no one cared.

• 45:24Jen Cohen?

  Well, it was all that they didn't care. It's what you had to do.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, they knew it was a part of the, what was needed.

• 45:28Jen Cohen?

  If you want, if you, if you wanted the job.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:31Jen Cohen?

  Like it was what was required of you.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:33Jen Cohen?

  And this is my issue. It's like, what is required? Like sometimes you're gonna have to go above and beyond what you want to do.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:40Jen Cohen?

  To get to where you want to be. And that's what I'm talking about.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:43Jen Cohen?

  But like now, this, there's a whole thing on like how Gen Z, do you know that twenty six percent of Gen Z are now bringing their parent to a job interview because they don't feel comfortable and confident enough?

• 45:58Speaker 02

  I've never experienced that.

• 45:59Jen Cohen?

  To have an interview. Yeah. This is what's happening in, well, in the US anyway. I don't know what the numbers are. You've never experienced anything like this?

• 46:06Speaker 02

  No, I have never experienced that before. I definitely have experienced like mid interview process, sort of like, you know, you meet the hiring man, you meet me and then you'll meet the hiring manager and someone being like, you know, I don't feel like this is the right environment for me, like pulling out before their interview. That's the most sort of like Gen Z behavior I've experienced.

• 46:22Jen Cohen?

  Pulling out before the interview in what way?

• 46:24Speaker 02

  I say an emergency came up and you had to move your meeting, you know, it's like, I'm so sorry, I have to push this. And then being like, you don't respect my time, so I'm not gonna come to the interview today. And it could have been like the interview person like had to run to their kid's daycare because their kid had to like, anything. So I find there's like less, there's like a lack of empathy or maybe, I don't know if that's

• 46:41Jen Cohen?

  Hold on, you're telling me.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:43Jen Cohen?

  That someone that you are interviewing for a job.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:46Jen Cohen?

  For them to have a job.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:48Jen Cohen?

  And you had to switch it, let's just say, to reschedule?

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Move it and they were like, oh, no, you obviously don't respect me.

• 46:55Jen Cohen?

  See, this is the kind of bullshit that I'm talking about.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  No, I don't, I don't disagree with you. And I remember being like, this isn't a personal attack on you. This is like the reality of this person's schedule and it happened.

• 47:05Jen Cohen?

  The fact that you're justifying it to this person to me is even crazy. Like,

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:09Jen Cohen?

  Let me get this straight. I'm gonna help you find a job that you could pay your bills with. And I don't, because I had to reschedule and shift, you know, it, there We're telling you now what's what. This is my, this is my problem with Gen Z.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  Right. Yep. No, it's such.

• 47:24Jen Cohen?

  Terrible.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  What's interesting too is it's so like vastly different. Like you can tell in the way you communicate with people. And I think like, there also is a whole new world of work that what didn't exist when we were choosing our careers. Like to your point, like kids want to be influencers now. That wasn't a thing.

• 47:38Jen Cohen?

  They want to be so, or in social media.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Or in social media or like, I don't know, paid to like sell a product and you know, gummy bear hair, whatever.

• 47:46Jen Cohen?

  Right. They want to either like, or they want to, there's other types of jobs out there, like social media managers or creators, content creators is a big one, right?

• 47:55Speaker 02

  And I think having young kids now, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. You're growing up in this whole world.

• 47:59Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  He's, my oldest is almost four, so we're not there yet. But I do feel like it's just this whole other parenting dynamic. And so when you talk about the generational changes in the interview processor and the hiring force, does that come back to like parenting too, which is interesting?

• 48:11Jen Cohen?

  It does a kind of, I guess you're right. And like what jobs, what kind of careers kids are wanting to seek is very, like you said, very different.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  It's.

• 48:21Jen Cohen?

  Than what it used to be. Like it used to be doctor, lawyer, let's say.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:24Jen Cohen?

  Nurse.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Oh, now it's like, what can I, how can I like get into AI or get into content creation?

• 48:29Jen Cohen?

  Content creation is a big one, or the YouTuber.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:32Jen Cohen?

  AI is a big one, but AI is like going to be taking over like both of our jobs.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:37Jen Cohen?

  Like we won't need, they won't need recruiters, they won't need podcasters, they won't need anything.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  I do feel like there is a reality where there's like a human interaction that can't be replaced.

• 48:47Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  And 100% like even now I use chat GPT and different AI tools to help me write more efficiently or create content or whatever that looks like. But I do think there's a way for us to work. I mean, maybe I'm being naive, but like harmoniously with AI without it fully replacing. And I think yes, there's going to be a ton of jobs that are replaced, but I also think it's going to create different opportunities. So I think there, again, maybe I'm just like, like cautiously optimistic all of the time, but I do think as much as things are going to shift, I do think it's still going to create new, new opportunities.

• 49:17Jen Cohen?

  Well, what I would think would be a really great area to get involved with is how to use AI. Because someone's going to have to like, I would think manually work it, right?

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:27Jen Cohen?

  So like even though. AI is going to be taking over a lot of different jobs, right? And they have, they are, they are already being like, to your point, like I use it when I'm when I need to do a presentation or some type of really huge communication piece or like research or all these things.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Uh, research has been so useful.

• 49:45Jen Cohen?

  Research is so, it's so useful, but there has, you have to know how to use it effectively. So having people to actually like use it or teach it or it's very, very valuable.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Or I think too, like when I'm thinking about my own future or your own future too, where you're like, okay, so what are podcasters? Or what are recruiters going to need specifically help from AI and how can I monetize that?

• 50:07Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  And I don't know the answer, but like, that's something I think about a lot. My, my husband and I talk about it. He's like, I know, but what are you going to need? Like how are recruitment and AI are going to be partners and how can you be the one to start that platform?

• 50:16Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  I don't know. I'd love to. I need to figure it out. So.

• 50:20Jen Cohen?

  But it's a way to kind of like, you're, so you're utilizing AI, but in a way that also incorporates a human person.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause I, I mean, I'm hopeful that not all of us will be completely eliminated.

• 50:30Jen Cohen?

  Absolutely.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:31Jen Cohen?

  Well, like I said, like, I think that there are going to have to be people that man the AI or teach the AI or keep on like creating versions and versions of it. Or you know, the truth is like you can, like a layman's person like me going on AI to research something.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:49Jen Cohen?

  Is very different than someone who really knows how to use it well. And they're very, they know exactly specifically how to talk to it.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:56Jen Cohen?

  And they will get way better, more unique information, you know.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  You're already seeing it too, though, like those master, like master classes available being like how to like use AI and how to be better at it.

• 51:07Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  We, it's kind of one of those situations where we kind of got to get on board and, um, but I think there's, we're in the middle of this cool gap opportunity from like an employment and workforce perspective is like, there is a way for us to like monetize what this looks like. I just don't know the answer.

• 51:21Jen Cohen?

  I know. Well, it's a work in progress.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  I'll let you know when I figure it out.

• 51:23Jen Cohen?

  Thank you. Well, okay. So thank you. Let me know. What other things can we, can you teach us or that we can glean from you in terms of the workforce? What we could be looking, is there anything else that you can like give our audience?

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think we touched on it briefly, but like when we're talking about emotional intelligence. Just two things. One, on the client side. So like on the hiring side, we need to let go a little bit of like the classic resume that has the exact same job title and the work experience you need and like focus a little bit more on like what's transferable. So like that's one of the things I feel like companies aren't doing. And so I think we need to find a way in your interview process, like is there a way to talk about resiliency and behavioral concepts and social constructs and bringing that into that in addition to what they technically need? And then the piece on the candidate side that I would say that I think is, we touched on this, but like I will not ever stop talking about like the power of your network.

• 52:22Speaker 02

  And so like if you're all the way from a new grad, if you're a new grad and you're looking for a job, who do you know at the company you're looking for and how can you get a direct connection? Because that's going to go further than your resume, all the way up to like those senior executive levels. It's like, how are you communicating? And the way we all know each other is the way you're going to get ahead. I hate to say that, but it is who you know to a certain extent. And even my own client base, when I first started, I literally just reached out to everyone I've never met ever, essentially. It was like, I started this company and like it was anyone want to help me? And a lot of it's a slow game, right? Like I have clients even just this year who like I reached out to like three years ago and they're like, hey, you know what? I am ready now. And you're like, great, I'm glad I kept. It's like that fine line where you don't want to be annoying in recruiting. Like you want, it's like, I want to be like pushy to a certain extent, but I want you to still want to hear from me.

• 53:05Jen Cohen?

  See, this is the EQ part, right? Like if you teach that, because that's like a very, that's a, that's a skill to know how much to do where you're not pushy.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:14Jen Cohen?

  Versus annoying or annoying.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Well, because I think you try to put yourself in the other side of it. Like what would I want to hear? And like, I think, again, making people feel like it's their choice too. Right? So it's like, if you don't want to hear from me, no problem. Please just let me know.

• 53:27Jen Cohen?

  Exactly. But it's really important to really build out your network. I think like you, like we say, there's a reason why, and I believe this cliche, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:37Jen Cohen?

  And it's about like networking well. And I always say that everybody could be a conduit to someone else. So it's not who you're speaking to at that exact moment, but they have a whole network. And then that person has a whole network. So always leave another meeting with another name.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:51Jen Cohen?

  That's what I always tell people.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 53:53Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, but thank you so much, Colleen, for coming on. I really appreciate this information. This was really fun. I hope people have gleaned a lot of, I think they have. They've gleaned a lot of actionable things of what other areas they can look at or look into that maybe they haven't thought of. Where do people find you?

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, so our two main platforms would be LinkedIn and Instagram. So Instagram is at the Lynch Pinko and then on LinkedIn is just the Lynch Pinko. So please come find us and follow along. Thank you so much.

• 54:21Jen Cohen?

  I'm gonna follow you. Of course, you're welcome. I love this. I think it's very helpful. I like to give people things that they can actually utilize and things that are helpful. And this is definitely one of them, especially in the time we're in now. So thank you so much.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 54:33Jen Cohen?

  Bye.